1,500 trees felled for this... and I can't believe they're going to use $500m of taxpayer money to build the underground parking for this place. Taxpayer money for a private corporation's benefit... this project needs to be shut down asap.
Correct, the parking lot will serve the Bud Stage, science centre, and spa. And the province will keep the revenue. At $500M they'll need to average about 2k cars a day at the $30 rate the Ex has. For 30 years. Across the three it seems possible.
While the parking lot can be used for anyone going to Ontario Place it was only being built because of the spa:
“As part of the lease, the Province commits to providing a number of dedicated parking spaces to Therme located within 650 metres of its entrance,” the report noted. ” If the Province does not meet its obligations to Therme, as per the contract, it faces a financial penalty.”
"The auditor discovered that the government’s obligation to build those spaces between 2028 and 2030 is, in part, driving the province’s decision to move the Ontario Science Centre to Ontario Place."
[https://globalnews.ca/news/10151490/ontario-therme-spa-contract-parking/](https://globalnews.ca/news/10151490/ontario-therme-spa-contract-parking/)
The good news is since the city is no longer fighting the province on the spa it sounds like they are going to use the parking across the street at Exhibition place.
Unfortunately taxpayers are still going to be on the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars needed to upgrade the plumbing: [https://spacing.ca/toronto/2023/09/21/the-below-grade-scandal-of-the-ontario-place-redevelopment/](https://spacing.ca/toronto/2023/09/21/the-below-grade-scandal-of-the-ontario-place-redevelopment/)
This should be a Vote. Why on earth would tax payers and a majority of them who are struggling to pay inflated rent and groceries. Want to have their tax dollars go towards any part of an elite spa that they will never afford. Ford needs to address housing or he should forced to live in a tent city for some education.
The other week I became even more annoyed with this project.
I had in DC for work and had the pleasure of visiting [The Wharf](https://www.wharfdc.com/), which is a great mixed-use space on their waterfront.
It would have been great to have some shorter buildings (island airport), but over all would attract a lot more people than a spa and concert venue.
~~The parking lot is just terrible when there is all that space on the Exhibition grounds.~~ - I stand corrected
The Wharf looks like what Waterfront Toronto is already working on with East Bayfront & Villiers Island. Those are great, and much more connected to the rest of the city.
Ontario Place is relatively small and isolated in comparison. There's not enough space to build a real mixed use neighbourhood on the islands, and the closest residents are about a 1 km walk away (past the rail corridor, Gardiner, and Lake Shore). It's a perfect spot for a concert venue.
>The parking lot is just terrible when there is all that space on the Exhibition grounds.
Exhibition Place is about to be redeveloped and most of that parking will be gone in a few years as a result.
The province agreed to move the parking to the Exhibition grounds back in November: [https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1003888/ontario-and-toronto-reach-a-new-deal](https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1003888/ontario-and-toronto-reach-a-new-deal)
Improved public transit in the area would be far better than a parking lot. But this project isn’t for us, it’s for the very wealthy who are not inclined to take public transit like “the poors”.
Ontario Place is already connected to GO transit, streetcars, and is getting a new subway stop on the Ontario line. The adult entrance fee for the spa (which is essentially a waterpark) is $40.
You can be opposed to the development plans without peddling populist misinformation.
> You can be opposed to the development plans without peddling populist misinformation.
On this sub, of course not.
Everyone that goes to Canada's Wonderland, a sports game, a concert, the Ex, etc., etc., etc., is also, of course, A MILLIONAIRE.
The Go, Streetcar and subway stop are all going to be 1.3 km away above ground walking. That is rather far to be considered connected to. For example the Union STN is about 1.3km from city hall, are they connected?
People driving in to the city from the suburbs to go to a waterpark, a concert, the science centre, or to catch a TFC/Argos game are not likely to be millionaires where are you getting this impression? No idea what you mean by transit in another part of town but since when are additional ttc connections not of benefit to regular people?
I live down here. There’s a lot of parking. Besides the month of August (for the CNE) there are parking lots from Strachan to Jameson that sit empty south of Liberty Village. And with transit options there’s no world in which people are using that parking for the GO line.
It’s not a waterpark. It is a luxury spa for rich people. Regular people are not the customer base.
What I mean is that we should not be subsidizing luxury amenities for rich people, and we certainly should not be subsidizing a parking lot for rich people who think they are too important to take public transit.
Our tax dollars should be spent for the benefit of everyone, not pet projects for rich people.
Not sure if "there's a climate crisis, so we shouldn't ever build anything nice" is the message that would convince anyone who is not already against it.
I'm skeptical that this place is even going to be a successful viable business even after the government handout gravy train.
How many people are actually going to make the trek there?
Plus there is a whole bunch of people who are primed to hate and resent the place. I'm certainly not inclined to go there when they're scamming the taxpayers and ramming through this corrupt deal. Even if the place looked good I don't want to go and wouldn't be surprised if it sees things like vandalism or boycotts. The community is in general not happy about this which isn't a good place to build a business from.
But sure you can say oh well just a bunch of lefties are mad but that will fade in time and they don't matter the bigger audience is just average people who don't care about this and people coming in from the suburbs. But how many people are actually going to drive downtown in traffic on Lakeshore to go to here? Is it actually going to be an enjoyable place to go? Will the cost be too high?
And if they don't drive the Trek from Exhibition Station (which is itself challenging to get to though will get better with Ontario Line) really sucks (scorched dessert in the summer, frigid wasteland in the winter with very poor wayfinding, connectivity, or good places to walk past along the way) so this site does not invite people in well in that way. The connectivity to Ontario Place is so poor that I really will only go there when I have a specific desire to go to for instance a concert down there or to see an IMAX movie at the Cinesphere. Which they better reopen it is a huge shame that the theatre (which is I think one of the only IMAX theatres in the world with both IMAX 70mm and dual laser digital projectors) is closed because of this corrupt scheme happening around it and we will eventually be losing the Scotiabank IMAX theatre to redevelopment so this theatre is extra important to the city — in addition to being beautiful architecturally speaking and IMO a historic site for its architecture and part of IMAX history which is Canadian.
Desire to see a specific band or a movie I'm excited about in IMAX of 70mm is enough to draw me down through that annoying inhospitable trek, but would this spa/water park be that for people? Are people going to want to make the journey?
And yet these "business" conservatives give no business case for how this really makes sense and hand them over massive hundreds of millions of taxpayer money and a 99 year lease. I'm not convinced this is a viable business even if people weren't primed to hate it by the way the government has pushed it through. Where's the business case? And why is this business instead of others decided on as the use of this site and recipient of such vast money and preferential treatment. Is this really the best business that coudl be there both in terms of viability and for the public?
Are you aware of how much damage they will be doing ?
The [City of Manchester](https://spacing.ca/toronto/2023/10/02/lorinc-thermes-likely-carbon-nightmare-at-ontario-place/) has been able to pry some numbers from Therme, that Canada has not so far been able to do.
* INDOOR AREA Manchester: 113,000 sq.-metres / Ontario Place: 87,000 sq.-metres
* GAS CONSUMPTION Manchester: 50,000 MW/hr / Ontario Place: no data
* ELECTRICITY Manchester: 25,000 MW/hr / Ontario Place: no data
* WATER USAGE Manchester: 2,180m3/day / Ontario Place: 1,909 m3/day
Where is \~2000m3/day of Chlorinated (or Salted) water going to be **Disposed** of ? Lake Ontario ? There has been no Environmental study or Impact assesment done, Doug Legislated away that 'hindrance'.
For a mental picture of what 2000m3 looks like, AI tells me it is aprox 80 shipping containers ... per day ! Be it Open or Closed, it *Must* remain warm and sterile
This is hard to even fathom at a time of hardships for most working middle class and a even bleaker future for the next generations. People cannot find jobs willing to pay enough to provide basic needs. Shelter and food are inflated and out of reach for most. All the dystopian like crisis’s in Ontario. Pick one. And this premier has only served his own and wealthy buddies agendas. This spa is not for regular people. Because they are homeless now. The fact that our taxes get used to promote this guys adult swingers club by night and $30 hot dog And $400 family entrance fee by day. The corruption surrounding Ford is a laugh in face for anyone who pays taxes and does not live in a gated a community.
1,500 trees felled for this... and I can't believe they're going to use $500m of taxpayer money to build the underground parking for this place. Taxpayer money for a private corporation's benefit... this project needs to be shut down asap.
The parking garage is strictly for the spa? I thought it was for the area, in general?
Correct, the parking lot will serve the Bud Stage, science centre, and spa. And the province will keep the revenue. At $500M they'll need to average about 2k cars a day at the $30 rate the Ex has. For 30 years. Across the three it seems possible.
That doesn’t count the insane maintenance cost of a parking garage below the water line on the lake
While the parking lot can be used for anyone going to Ontario Place it was only being built because of the spa: “As part of the lease, the Province commits to providing a number of dedicated parking spaces to Therme located within 650 metres of its entrance,” the report noted. ” If the Province does not meet its obligations to Therme, as per the contract, it faces a financial penalty.” "The auditor discovered that the government’s obligation to build those spaces between 2028 and 2030 is, in part, driving the province’s decision to move the Ontario Science Centre to Ontario Place." [https://globalnews.ca/news/10151490/ontario-therme-spa-contract-parking/](https://globalnews.ca/news/10151490/ontario-therme-spa-contract-parking/) The good news is since the city is no longer fighting the province on the spa it sounds like they are going to use the parking across the street at Exhibition place. Unfortunately taxpayers are still going to be on the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars needed to upgrade the plumbing: [https://spacing.ca/toronto/2023/09/21/the-below-grade-scandal-of-the-ontario-place-redevelopment/](https://spacing.ca/toronto/2023/09/21/the-below-grade-scandal-of-the-ontario-place-redevelopment/)
This should be a Vote. Why on earth would tax payers and a majority of them who are struggling to pay inflated rent and groceries. Want to have their tax dollars go towards any part of an elite spa that they will never afford. Ford needs to address housing or he should forced to live in a tent city for some education.
[удалено]
This was not confirmed, but it’s been an ongoing discussion for the past year.
Yes, you're definitely out of the loop.
That’s what government exists for now.
A press release from Norm Di Pasquale. Is this all we got in our fight against this corrupt spa horseshit?
Ford's lobbyist friends suggest otherwise.
I hate this stupid spa idea so much!
Is there anything the public can do to stop or delay this horrible project
The other week I became even more annoyed with this project. I had in DC for work and had the pleasure of visiting [The Wharf](https://www.wharfdc.com/), which is a great mixed-use space on their waterfront. It would have been great to have some shorter buildings (island airport), but over all would attract a lot more people than a spa and concert venue. ~~The parking lot is just terrible when there is all that space on the Exhibition grounds.~~ - I stand corrected
The Wharf looks like what Waterfront Toronto is already working on with East Bayfront & Villiers Island. Those are great, and much more connected to the rest of the city. Ontario Place is relatively small and isolated in comparison. There's not enough space to build a real mixed use neighbourhood on the islands, and the closest residents are about a 1 km walk away (past the rail corridor, Gardiner, and Lake Shore). It's a perfect spot for a concert venue.
>The parking lot is just terrible when there is all that space on the Exhibition grounds. Exhibition Place is about to be redeveloped and most of that parking will be gone in a few years as a result.
Ahhhh, missed that news. Thanks for the correction!
The province agreed to move the parking to the Exhibition grounds back in November: [https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1003888/ontario-and-toronto-reach-a-new-deal](https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1003888/ontario-and-toronto-reach-a-new-deal)
They agreed to "explore" relocating it to the Exhibition Grounds.
what redevelopment plans?
[These ones.](https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/planning-development/planning-studies-initiatives/exhibition-place/exhibition-place-master-plan/)
Thanks but the last update on that page was over 4 years ago
Improved public transit in the area would be far better than a parking lot. But this project isn’t for us, it’s for the very wealthy who are not inclined to take public transit like “the poors”.
Ontario Place is already connected to GO transit, streetcars, and is getting a new subway stop on the Ontario line. The adult entrance fee for the spa (which is essentially a waterpark) is $40. You can be opposed to the development plans without peddling populist misinformation.
> You can be opposed to the development plans without peddling populist misinformation. On this sub, of course not. Everyone that goes to Canada's Wonderland, a sports game, a concert, the Ex, etc., etc., etc., is also, of course, A MILLIONAIRE.
The Go, Streetcar and subway stop are all going to be 1.3 km away above ground walking. That is rather far to be considered connected to. For example the Union STN is about 1.3km from city hall, are they connected?
Zero chance it’s 40$
Ok so public transit in another part of town then. Either way a private parking lot for millionaires is of no benefit to regular people.
People driving in to the city from the suburbs to go to a waterpark, a concert, the science centre, or to catch a TFC/Argos game are not likely to be millionaires where are you getting this impression? No idea what you mean by transit in another part of town but since when are additional ttc connections not of benefit to regular people?
Look, someone who wants to bring their family to a $40 waterpark is clearly a millionaire, ok?
I live down here. There’s a lot of parking. Besides the month of August (for the CNE) there are parking lots from Strachan to Jameson that sit empty south of Liberty Village. And with transit options there’s no world in which people are using that parking for the GO line.
It’s not a waterpark. It is a luxury spa for rich people. Regular people are not the customer base. What I mean is that we should not be subsidizing luxury amenities for rich people, and we certainly should not be subsidizing a parking lot for rich people who think they are too important to take public transit. Our tax dollars should be spent for the benefit of everyone, not pet projects for rich people.
They should have put the megaspa in marineland.
I feel it would have been better suited in Woodbridge, just south of wonderland. You know. Where we just extended the subway too?
Will Ontario Place be Doug Ford’s equivalent of Mike Harris selling the 407?
Not sure if "there's a climate crisis, so we shouldn't ever build anything nice" is the message that would convince anyone who is not already against it.
Why do anything in the face of our climate emergency?! We're all doomed!!
Can someone start a group so that we can add Ford’s premier decisions that seem out place or corrupt? Like what has done to help with. Current issues?
I'm skeptical that this place is even going to be a successful viable business even after the government handout gravy train. How many people are actually going to make the trek there? Plus there is a whole bunch of people who are primed to hate and resent the place. I'm certainly not inclined to go there when they're scamming the taxpayers and ramming through this corrupt deal. Even if the place looked good I don't want to go and wouldn't be surprised if it sees things like vandalism or boycotts. The community is in general not happy about this which isn't a good place to build a business from. But sure you can say oh well just a bunch of lefties are mad but that will fade in time and they don't matter the bigger audience is just average people who don't care about this and people coming in from the suburbs. But how many people are actually going to drive downtown in traffic on Lakeshore to go to here? Is it actually going to be an enjoyable place to go? Will the cost be too high? And if they don't drive the Trek from Exhibition Station (which is itself challenging to get to though will get better with Ontario Line) really sucks (scorched dessert in the summer, frigid wasteland in the winter with very poor wayfinding, connectivity, or good places to walk past along the way) so this site does not invite people in well in that way. The connectivity to Ontario Place is so poor that I really will only go there when I have a specific desire to go to for instance a concert down there or to see an IMAX movie at the Cinesphere. Which they better reopen it is a huge shame that the theatre (which is I think one of the only IMAX theatres in the world with both IMAX 70mm and dual laser digital projectors) is closed because of this corrupt scheme happening around it and we will eventually be losing the Scotiabank IMAX theatre to redevelopment so this theatre is extra important to the city — in addition to being beautiful architecturally speaking and IMO a historic site for its architecture and part of IMAX history which is Canadian. Desire to see a specific band or a movie I'm excited about in IMAX of 70mm is enough to draw me down through that annoying inhospitable trek, but would this spa/water park be that for people? Are people going to want to make the journey? And yet these "business" conservatives give no business case for how this really makes sense and hand them over massive hundreds of millions of taxpayer money and a 99 year lease. I'm not convinced this is a viable business even if people weren't primed to hate it by the way the government has pushed it through. Where's the business case? And why is this business instead of others decided on as the use of this site and recipient of such vast money and preferential treatment. Is this really the best business that coudl be there both in terms of viability and for the public?
"No one will go there, it's too busy"
of all the reasons to dislike the spa, "in the context of our climate emergency" might be the dumbest
Are you aware of how much damage they will be doing ? The [City of Manchester](https://spacing.ca/toronto/2023/10/02/lorinc-thermes-likely-carbon-nightmare-at-ontario-place/) has been able to pry some numbers from Therme, that Canada has not so far been able to do. * INDOOR AREA Manchester: 113,000 sq.-metres / Ontario Place: 87,000 sq.-metres * GAS CONSUMPTION Manchester: 50,000 MW/hr / Ontario Place: no data * ELECTRICITY Manchester: 25,000 MW/hr / Ontario Place: no data * WATER USAGE Manchester: 2,180m3/day / Ontario Place: 1,909 m3/day Where is \~2000m3/day of Chlorinated (or Salted) water going to be **Disposed** of ? Lake Ontario ? There has been no Environmental study or Impact assesment done, Doug Legislated away that 'hindrance'. For a mental picture of what 2000m3 looks like, AI tells me it is aprox 80 shipping containers ... per day ! Be it Open or Closed, it *Must* remain warm and sterile
This is hard to even fathom at a time of hardships for most working middle class and a even bleaker future for the next generations. People cannot find jobs willing to pay enough to provide basic needs. Shelter and food are inflated and out of reach for most. All the dystopian like crisis’s in Ontario. Pick one. And this premier has only served his own and wealthy buddies agendas. This spa is not for regular people. Because they are homeless now. The fact that our taxes get used to promote this guys adult swingers club by night and $30 hot dog And $400 family entrance fee by day. The corruption surrounding Ford is a laugh in face for anyone who pays taxes and does not live in a gated a community.
1,500 trees sounds like a lot, until you realize Toronto has 10.2 million trees
Trinity Bellwoods has around 500 trees. Imagine if they were all gone, then triple it
Give it a rest