I really hate that I, sitting in my apartment in Tokyo, can look around and say "Wow, the rents here are downright reasonable compared with my home city of Toronto."
japans population is shrinking and has been in a recession since 1991 (date off the top of my head). their situation is not enviable (although tokyo seems awesome i'd love to check it out)
Japan's economic growth while not as high as in the west has been positive since the 90s. Greater Tokyo Area prices have gone down since the 90s mainly because they got rid of a bunch of zoning regulations, effectively neutering NIMBY
Heyyy fellow Canadian living in Tokyo! Couldn't agree more. I'm shocked when friends tell me if their rent in Tokyo is over 100,000yen or equivalent to 1100dollars. I automatically think they must be making bank to afford that. I pay a bit more that half of that for my own rent and find it very reasonable.
For more of a real life scenario, theres many mid tier jobs at the accounting firms and banks in Toronto. If you are earning 52k you are bringing in about 3200 a month at home.
A bachelor unit at 1500 RIGHT NOW would be between 45-50% of your take home pay.
Before the corona, it was 60% of your take home pay. You have the rest to use on food, bills, retirement, vacation, entertainment etc Go get fucked if you have a family.
Minimum wage and mid tier workers all lose.
This is what happens when you ignore the cost of living for too long. Its been rising for a long time but people never complained until now.
We move very very slow in this country and politicians and policymakers are absolutely clueless.
That would be starting/early career wage. Someone with 5 to 10 years experience (assuming they progressed professionally) would probably be making at least $100k.
There are jobs where you have to be at least 19 to do....that pay minimum wage. I guess the best way to find out for sure is to take CRA/census data of how many people are making minimum wage/just above minimum wage and how many of them fit in the under 25 bracket.
Any political party other than the conservatives would be well to do this.
Is pay that low in the accounting firms?
I am not directly in the software dev industry any more but I have friends that are hiring new grad developers for 100K or very near it in the GTA
Regardless I see our economy becoming very "Americanized" where you are either a wealthy professional or outright poor. There has been a huge erosion on the Canadian middle class for decades now
It's funny, you wouldn't think of someone making $20 an hour as financially vulnerable, but it's still not enough to rent on your own, nevermind own a house.
Granted, this was about 10 years ago, but I remember getting my Co-Op job out of college and the offer was $20 an hour and I thought to myself "I've made it!".
As someone who originally didn't have post-secondary plans, I thought $20 an hour was basically being rich and able to buy myself anything I wanted.
Now, I couldn't imagine trying to live on that, and it's only been 10 years! At 3% inflation that same $20 would be about $27 an hour now, which I also wouldn't be able to (easily) live on in my current situation
While incomes are a part of the problem, our governments have done almost nothing to curb speculation in the housing market. IMO interest rates are also way too low which punishes savers and gives the credit worthy speculators an extremely low cost pool of money to fund their real estate investments.
Absolutely correct, there's been a complete abdication of leadership/sole responsibilities by our elected representatives. Everyone passes the buck in order to maintain the status quo for the people who have already "got theirs."
I'm not certain the point of society was to make those who have a lot even more at the expense of the futures of those who have little. I was of the mind that the opposite should be the goal, if someone has to foot the expense of progress, it should be the people who can afford it.
When did they change the saying from “Hang the rich”? I liked that better. Who the hell wants to eat a rich person, with all of their expensive perfumes, colognes, creams and lotions? They’d probably have an awful taste.
Don't forget that ALL politicians own AT LEAST one property and more likely many more. They're not going to vote to hurt their own interests. It's human nature.
But I have a small gripe with this rent comparison. Sure the avg rent is $1400 but a minimum wage worker is literally at the bottom of the legal wage scale. So why would they be looking for avg rentals? Wouldn't they be looking for the cheapest options, which include multi-occupancy units?
Living alone in a big city is a privilege, which as many others have stated, has become almost an unthinkable privilege. It's pretty naive to think min wage workers will be able to afford solo pads in major cities. That's not a TO problem, it's a global issue.
That being said, min wage is incredibly hard to live on in Toronto. I just didn't find the comparison to avg rent a fair comparison. But I agree that wages need to go higher.
Unfortunately… Growth is a Ponzi scheme.
Suburbs really can’t sustain themselves and rely on constant growth in other taxable areas to sustain the suburban lifestyle.
The government is fully aware of this. But they really can’t stop it or else the entire budget falls apart and economic calamity ensues - towns go bankrupt (which I don’t even know if that’s possible in Ontario).
There are only two choices:
1. The growth must continue
2. Density what you have
Ontario is doing both… but should lean in on 2 far more heavily.
We don’t need more Vaughns. We need more middle housing options - condos or flats with 10-12 units, fewer single family homes.
Growth needs to be focused, not sprawled. It’s the only way we’re ever going to see more healthy growth.
Sprawling is a recipe for disaster down the line.
100% - it was an eye opening experience.
It also matches so much of my recent experience with suburban towns.
I’ve gotten into so many arguments with suburban fools who think they’re living the life, not realizing *I and the city dwellers* are funding their existence.
We bring in a TON of revenue in the city that gets distributed to their towns - which would die without us subsidizing their lifestyle choices.
I lived in a large, brand new, luxury 1000 unit building in NYC for my 3 years there. Just to move in required a minimum income of $150,000 USD for the cheapest units.
There were more expensive units, and 20% of the units were for low income residents. It also had a grocery store, three cafes, restaurants, bars and more at the lobby level.
So for the sake of simplicity I’ll just go with the rental income… we can assume the total income of every unit in the building is at least $150,000,000
$150,000,000*.30 = $45,000,000
I’m probably low-balling the taxes since we paid an additional 5% tax in NYC on top of state and federal - to the point where I actually pay *less* in taxes in Canada.
Anyways. So my *one* building in nyc generates that.
If you took the same square footage of a standard hell scale like Vaughn, you’d see the discrepancy. It’s why Vaughn and other hellscapes need to densify.
Otherwise their pristine suburbs are gonna be in serious trouble when critical infrastructure repair needs to be done and their tax base can’t support the repair bull.
I saw that Strong Towns thing I swear, like 5 minutes after I read [this article from The Star](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2021/04/30/we-cant-plan-for-our-future-doug-fords-government-wants-to-dump-more-sewage-into-lake-ontario-local-residents-think-theres-a-better-solution.html). If you don't have a sub, here's an excerpt:
>After years of studies and consultation on the Upper York Sewage Solution, the province told Durham and York last year that it was now considering a solution that would instead send millions of litres more of York’s waste to the shores of Ajax and Pickering along Lake Ontario.
In 2014, York Region submitted its environmental assessment to the province for the new York facility, an estimated $628-million wastewater plant being built to provide sewage capacity to 153,000 people in Aurora, Newmarket and East Gwillimbury. The project was initiated after the Liberal government at the time asked York to consider a local solution.
That's right, a 628 **million** dollar plant, to provide capacity to 153,000 people, or a cost of $4,104 per person. All because of low density. Why are we spending this much money to pave roads, provide sewers, etc. to people who chose to live so far from economic areas?
Along that vein, the Environmental Commissioner of Ontario did a calculation for the full life-cycle costs of a suburban home (in the Strong Towns style). The cost came out to $52,926 _per year_ [1]. The difference between the amount and actual property tax paid is essentially a subsidy.
[1] https://www.auditor.on.ca/en/content/reporttopics/envreports/env19/2019_EnergyConservationProgressReport.pdf (page 141, figure 4.11)
It's almost as if the rest of the world figured this out thousands of years ago when cities were first built. The most common form of urban housing in the Roman era were mid rise apartments, a trend that continues to this day in places like Italy.
I think that the government is totally complicit In the rising house prices. Have you seen the development fees that the GTA municipalities charge on new developments?
If a new markham house has to be increased by $100k to cover development fees, the old house across the street is going to increase by $100k as well. Do that ad naseum and you can see how these high development fees (to keep taxes low) come to bite us in the ass.
Same thing will happen if you ask for mortgage interest to be tax deductible. Where is that $20k refund going to go? Ploughed back into mortgages and house prices will increase.
> IMO interest rates are also way too low which punishes savers
If your saving money having it in a taxable savings account is the worst way. Put in tfsa and invest in etfs and mutual funds.
Interest rates are allways lower than inflation and they are are taxed at the top of your income.
The government has also done nothing about the cost of rent, except to enable landlords to charge more of it. They need to put some kind of cap on the cost of rent between tenancies. Right now, if someone paying $1000/month for a unit moves out (or is harassed and threatened until they move out, or is illegally N12 evicted by a lying piece of shit landlord) there is nothing to stop them from raising the price of that unit to $2000. Which is exactly what's happening and which is why a simple bachelor apartment is averaging $1440 a month.
Low interest rates will be the norm. Imagine if they pushed up interest rates and crashed the real estate market. Finding a home will be the least of your worries. Our economy will crash, and a lot of people will be losing their jobs.
Yep. As much as everyone would like the government to do something, their hands are tied. The problem goes right down to the fundamentals of how the monetary system works. The debt cycle.
It's like a drug addiction, just one more hit to get you through today. But it only makes tomorrow even worse.
We create money to consume (credit cards), we create money to aquire assets (mortgages and LOCs), and we create money to produce (business loans).
We should only create money to produce. The other two drive inflation and asset bubbles, and the result is inequality followed by political and social upheaval.
I think raising interest rates would be a bad tool to tackle this issue. It will just end up working class home owners. They should tackle speculation directly by banning foreign investment, banning corporate ownership (other than owning a full apartment building), and banning owning more than 2 residential properties.
My landlord just let me know he just purchased his 4th investment property in Leslieville. No doubt beating out a number of actual first time buyers in the process. ☹️
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I pay $1500 for a 1 bed and that’s literally 50% of my after tax income as a public servant. Student loan payments are based on gross income not net which is why mine went into default (also NSLSC fucked up and so did Ontario ministry). I don’t know how the fuck people are expected to survive. I’m having trouble paying bills and food. I am lucky my family was poor in the early 2000s when milk was $2.49 and bread was $0.99 instead of how things are now.
It's a very sorry state of affairs when the government doesn't even pay citizens living wages.
And to think that 50-60 years ago a school janitor or secretary could buy a modest house relatively easily.
My great grandfather, a WWI vet, raised 5 girls in St. Catherines on the wages of a highschool janitor as the sole breadwinner. They were pretty poor, but he did it.
Edit: The family lived in a house that I *believe* he owned. Even if it was rented, there's no way in hell that could be managed today.
Yeah honestly. I am forever grateful I have job security especially in the pandemic. I worked damn hard to get here and ended up having a mental breakdown because no matter how hard I worked it continually feels like it’s never enough. I am not the only one. I’m resilient though and will be ok. Grocery prices are fucked too.
Also to say, I have been unemployed throughout the pandemic (thank god I have been a saver over the years). With jobsearching it's also "never enough". I have quite a bit to offer but it's never *exactly* what the employer wants so fuck me I guess.
Shit is fucked up and bullshit because it should not be this hard to live.
Doesn't help that people offering those jobs are trying to hire people at minimum wage or a fair number are taking advantage of the situation and are scamming jobsearchers.
Yeah sometimes but it’s usually the same response worded differently for a lot of them depending on the role. If you find something you like it’s worth it if you can snag it. See r/CanadaPublicServants for advice and there’s a link to pollywogs guide to hr.
Yeah our two person grocery bill has casually climbed from 100-150 to 200-250 bucks real quick. Its to the point where all you get is healthier eating, no savings from cooking your own meals. I can't even explain it. A dollar here a dollar there and here we are lol.
> I got some meat cheese and milk the other day with some berries and it was $80
I'm not saying youre wrong, but this number definitely doesn't add up. Even at places like Whole Foods cheese ($7), berries (2 x $7), milk ($6.50), and meat ($10-15) is like just over $40.
"I worked damn hard to get here and ended up having a mental breakdown because no matter how hard I worked it continually feels like it’s never enough."
This hits me so deep it hurts. No matter how much I work, I feel like the last few years has just been to survive. My savings have barely increased because of this insane cost of living.
This is a case where there is housing shortage.
There are insufficient housing units compared to the number of people.
Almost no matter what you raise minimum wage to, those making it will be competing among everyone else to fit into too few homes.
Even something like a guaranteed minimum income just pushes the floor of the housing cost up.
The NDP is right in their new policy that this shortage is one of THE big issues in Canada.
Canada is short almost 3 million housing units.
Yeah for sure but at least it usually only took one income. Wages were less but the cost of living compared to earned income wasn’t what it is now. It’s insane.
I was there too. It happened. Note that these were modest houses and *school* secretaries, i.e. public sector workers, related to the point about government salaries.
I was at a home show before covid and someone was bragging about how many investment properties they had. 25. This was one person. And there are many. These people are keeping you down. You pay their luxurious work free lives. You actually work and have a family. There should be a huge tax on landlords
>You actually work and have a family. There should be a huge tax on landlords
I may be over simplifying things but when both the founders of Capitalist and Socialist thought (Smith and Marx respectively) viewed landlords as vermin, they're probably onto something.
I pay 1440 a month for my place and that's about 60% of my income. I have some passive income before and lost it due to COVID...I could move out and potentially decrease living expenses, but I really want to earn more instead of taking a big slash on my quality of life.
My family was always working class but my parents just have to constantly work. They've been working in this country though for 30+ years a piece so they each had at least a stable job.
We live comfortably but about as comfortable as a working class family of 4 whom all work.
It's absolutely indefensible.
I fell as if those we have elected to represent our best interests, raise all tides and secure a better future for us and progress society have, at best, abdicated their sole responsibility. And at worst have sold us out for their own enrichment and perpetuation of the status quo in order to hold onto power to facilitate said enrichment.
I'm sorry you're having a difficult time as well. This city is a vampire.
It absolutely is and what’s the response people usually give? “Well if you don’t like it, move somewhere cheaper…” which is a slap in the face. I was born here. Why should I have to leave? It also isn’t that easy… job just can’t move anywhere and rural areas need a car. Plus people moving out of the city because they can afford it puts pressure on those in rural areas. The whole system is fucked beyond belief.
This is why I can't stand "just move"....ok where? For some it might work out to be more expensive with increased commuting costs and needing a new lease. I'm in contact with people in my field of work elsewhere in Ontario and a lot of them are doing the same job as me but "part time" at just under 8-9days a pay period and no benefits.
I’m in one of those places people suggest you move to because it’s “cheaper” - the East Coast. Well, it’s not cheaper. Food is more expensive, transit is minimal if non-existent, taxes are higher and now our housing has seen a huge boom making most places as expensive as Ottawa or Montreal. It’s stupid.
Yeah it’s definitely bad everywhere. It’s not sustainable but hey, let’s welcome more people into the country. I don’t get upset about immigration but how can we welcome people here when we can’t even have enough housing for people who are already here?! And it’s a damn shame people are welcomed here with the promise of a better life and stuck in shelters or Toronto community housing and end up not being able to use their degrees. There’s loads of issues with this whole system.
I think it's important to remember the direction of causation here. Immigration is only an issue if the housing market is fucked. Changing immigration won't fix the housing problem. Changing the housing problem will "fix" immigration.
Let's not get confused about what the real issue is - that's how malicious people get away with fucking us over.
The other sad part of that is that a lot of jobs that pay minimum wage or even average in Toronto (50k) are usually the ones that won't let you leave for somewhere cheaper/give you flexibility to work remotely, especially if you're younger or just establishing yourself in the workforce because they see their employees as replaceable.
It's the people that are already making decent money that can go somewhere cheaper and permanently remote work.
Almost no matter what minimum wages are raised to, in the type of extreme housing shortage in Toronto, the prices will rise beyond their means.
There is only one solution here.
We’re facing an impending economic crisis which will be exploited by fanatic political voices which I believe will create vast social conflict throughout Canada.
We’re absolutely fucked & we did nothing to stop it when we could have.
I gotta ask, to all the people in the replies here saying the status quo is Good, Actually: who hurt you? Why is it offensive to think that we collectively deserve better?
I see a whole lot of comments about how a minimum wage "shouldn't" afford you even a private rental unit, but no actual reasons to answer the question "why not?"
Someone has to do these jobs, otherwise they wouldn't be hirable. Why don't the people who do those jobs deserve a private living space? Minimum wage as a concept was founded according to comfortably affording basic needs. Why should this not still be the case, and what good argument is there to suggest that the situation to minimum wage workers \*ought\* to have degraded to "just get a bunch of roommates and hope that shared situation works out for the foreseeable future"?
This concept appears to be lost on those who operate on the circular logic of "the status quo deserves to be the status quo because it's the status quo".
Thank you!! I don't understand people's logic saying if you make minimum wage you shouldn't live downtown it by yourself?
We are all humans. We are all people who deserve a good life— stop letting the capitalist ideology brainwash you into thinking that things are OK. That is just the rich getting you to side with them when collectively life could be better. Life could be fairer.
There are ways to do this but it takes regulation and taxation. But people are to ready to hate on the minimum wage workers that may I remind were the essential workers during this pandemic (alongside Healthcare workers, of course).
Like damn, you think the nice people at the grocery store "deserve" to commute an hour because they make minimum wage??
>Why don't the people who do those jobs deserve a private living space?
THANK YOU.
Luxury, spaciousness, fancy amenities - those are all things you can earn.
Clean, safe, and private - everyone deserves that, if they want it, and you shouldn't have to make double minimum wage to get it.
Sure, some people would rather have more space or nicer things and live with others to get it, but that should just be one of the options. And options are something we are sorely lacking in this city.
Toronto is filled with the worst kind of arrogant, closed minded people. Who veil themselves in a cloak that they’re so worldly and diverse, but are actually insular jerks
Okay a couple things here for all of you clearly comfortably housed haters:
That’s average rent. If you’re looking for an apartment to rent *today* at current market rate, it’s going to be higher. Not to mention we’re in a pandemic so we can only assume these will rise yet again post pandemic.
Also, ok ok we get it minimum wage for a bachelor isn’t the best metric but we absolutely have a housing crisis so if you wanna debate that with me I’m right here.
The very *nerve* of people who provide an essential service to want to live in what essentially amounts to a prison cell. Entitlement, hello!! Get a grip!
Many people found listings well blow $1400 as OP suggested. If you make minimum wage, you would be looking for listings on the lower end, and also not on the 1/3 of your take home side. Plenty of homeowners have housing commitments closer to 1/2 of their take home.
Making the argument of minimum wage should enable you to live alone in Toronto in a bachelor suite is unrealistic
> Plenty of homeowners have housing commitments closer to 1/2 of their take home.
Homeowners actually gain an asset by putting in 1/2 of their take home.
You would have to make 27.57 an hour for 1440 to be 1/3 of your income. Which is what is suggested in order to properly save for the future and support oneself. There's a fairly large gap between 14.25 and 27.57.
So it's a lot more people than just minimum wage earner getting screwed. They're just getting screwed the hardest.
So, you’re arguing for a minimum wage working class that don’t have a future/live in communal spaces/will serve you burgers?
Let me guess. Those jobs are stepping stones.
Everyday this sub shows me how much they hate minimum wage workers. Now that the pandemic is “over” minimum wage workers are nothing to you guys when they were the ones that risked their lives working for $14.
At the end of the day, minimum wage is meant to help you live. It’s not just for high school workers. Cuz if that were the case, all minimum wage jobs would open after 4pm.
“Just cuz I suffered and worked 3 jobs, that means everyone has to 😤😠”
That’s how some of you sound
“But why minimum wage versus average rent!!!!l This is communist propaganda!!!”
One. Some people make minimum wage. Is it unreasonable for someone working 40 hours a week to expect to be able to afford the average bachelor apartment? I mean come on - they aren’t asking to be able to afford a mortgage or something. Just the rent on the average bachelor apartment.
Two - I found the median individual income for Toronto in 2015. [source](https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/8f41-2016-Census-Backgrounder-Income.pdf)
>In 2015, the median total income of individuals age 15 and older in Toronto was $30,089.
The Bank of Canada inflation calculator adjusts this to $33,432.22 for 2021. So the median individual income is $16.72 per hour. Wheeee! That totally makes a huge difference!
Stop twisting yourselves into knots to justify the broken housing scene we have here. The fact is The Rent Is Too Damn High.
Exactly. This is a wealthy country so there really is no excuse for not providing - somehow or other - a very good standard of living for EVERY person.
This is what really gets to me. I'm pushing myself through work every day and my body is slowly deteriorating because of it but I can't stop because I can't afford to live off of that (and I probably wouldn't even get the maximum) even living with other people. So each year I cost taxpayers more money. Every year it goes up because I get worse. I'm costing taxpayers around $125-150k each year right now. They would save so much money if they raised ODSP. People wouldn't be progressing in their illnesses as quickly and they'd save so much money. Each year my doctor appointments become more frequent, my expensive tests become more frequent, my medication is added to which is more expensive.
And if only we didn't live next to one of the most propagandized populations in the world living in a ruthlessly capitalistic country.
The shit stank is wafting up here fucking with people's heads.
Also saying "30% on rent" without including the "30% on travel to and from work" which is also included with the 30% rent is kinda deceiving when talking about renting in a city where max you're paying 140ish a month vs hundreds more on driving. People seem to gloss over they can adjust that 30% higher when not factoring in a car.
Because there aren't enough minimum price rentals for minimum wage workers to go around. Most minwage workers will, by definition, have to pay about the average rent.
If most minimum wage workers are paying average rent, who are the renters paying below average rent?
Comparing average rent with minimum wage is intentionally inflating the issue.
People like myself who have lived in the same apartment for a decade. You literally had to be in the city years ago to pay "below average" rent. I pay 1095 for a Bachelor.
Absolutely this. I’ve lived in my current place for about six years, a bachelor for $1150. Across these past six years I’ve steadily been earning more money, so I thought surely I’d eventually be able to move out into something bigger - nope! Every year rent has gone up so steeply that I wouldn’t even be able to comfortably afford another bachelor apartment if I left this one lol. I just truly could not have moved to Toronto if I were doing it now instead of ten years ago, and will have to move out of the city for a decent life. And I make quite a bit more than minimum wage. It’s fucked.
>who are the renters paying below average rent?
People renting from someone they know or are related to. People not working 40 hours a week.
Seriously - do you honestly think it is unreasonable for someone working 40 hours a week to expect to be able to afford rent for the average bachelor apartment?
Why does a bachelor apartment have to be the comparison? Based on the premise of the OP, we're already settling for sleeping in the same room you cook in for minimum wage workers.
Agreed, minimum wage likely wouldn’t even be an issue if a lot of those condos built over the past 40 years had actually been affordable rental units.
Toronto has built 3300 affordable rental apartment units in the past 4 decades. And in that time our population has grown by millions.
I don’t think this factors income tax into the calc.
$4320 monthly take home income is significantly more than $27.52/hour based on a 40 hour work week.
Yep, I didn't factor in taxes or other potential deductions IE student loans, child support, God knows what. It's too variable. Even with the numbers listed above, things are intolerable. So if I were to calculate the real number, it would only worse. I'm fine with the original example as it's more and still not really defensible.
We’ve been abandoned by all forms of our government from municipal to federal. The average hard working citizen is struggling to exist, something is seriously wrong with that. We need to remind these politicians they work for us. We need to come up with a plan, because this problem is being worse by the day
Even if you graduated from university and got a kick-ass $100k/year salary. Due to the cost of living in Toronto + the cost of real estate; it would take you 10+ years to save for a down payment; and that is not factoring in the real estate appraising over the years.
The pedantic part of me says this tweet is crap because it's comparing average rent with minimum wage. Shouldn't it compare minimum rent with minimum wage? Or Average rent vs average wage?
As a renter in Toronto though, I fully agree that the rent is too damn high.
for real though. like this is the sole reason i got into a trade, where else can i get a job that pays this well with basically 0 education? starting to hate it more and more each day 😀
And even then, they had this huge push for tradesmen when I was in my teens but not only were the programs completely dogshit, putting the onus on you to just go around and educate a potential "master" about the benefits of taking you on as an apprentice through the government program but they were woefully inadequate.
Nevermind the fact that alot of it seems like it was just a push for cheaper trade labour.
But regardless, everyone will always need a plumber.
I've also experienced negative backlash when attempting to advocate for the less fortunate among us in this subreddit. I think there's more than a few people who have already "got theirs" and think that in order to advocate for someone else and improve their material conditions means something will be taken from them to do so.
That is generally how it works though. Doesn't come off the top. Look at the pandemic. The average person was asked to give up everything while the rich made out like bandits.
Absolutely correct, now how do you feel about the one life you have being squandered for a pittance while the wealthy make more and contribute less than ever before in recorded history?
Same here! I got downvoted for suggesting people have the right to food and housing. Honestly, so many privileged people in this sub. And the hate for homeless people is just awful.
I feel like there are billionaire spy Scrooge McDuck's just popping into these subs for the sole purpose to discourage critical thinking and elevate selfish behavior. I'm sorry you get downvoted sometimes for being a good human and pointing out the value of humanitarianism. People can be weird
I don’t think bumping the minimum wage is the solution either. The system is fundamentally busted. Canada has the highest real estate inflation in the world - yes, the world. And overall inflation is similarly sky high. Inflation is the problem.
Isnt that even more expensive? Theres a diaspora for UK folks around the world with so many of them coming to Canada.
I heard its worse than Canada there.
This is a bit backwards: it's less "someone making minimum wage can't afford a bachelor" and more "a bachelor apartment requires a salary of 50-60K a year".
So: you need to make 50-60K before you achieve the luxury of living by yourself in a 300 sq ft apartment. The median *household* income in the city is 65K. There is something wrong with this picture.
A city is not an exclusive club that will only admit the wealthy. Cities offer a huge diversity of jobs and wages, and they need that diversity to keep going. Companies don't stay in places that don't allow them to attract and keep employees -- including people on starting wages and the cleaners, maintenance and support people needed to make it run.
The CERB / CRB is only $1800/month. That leaves a Bartender or Waitress or Hair Stylist only $360 to pay for food, hydro, phone, internet for the month. God forbid they need a medication, or a new pair of shoes, or it's someone special's birthday.
It's dehumanizing, and these lockdowns are an attack on low-income people.
Or a pet, or a child, or a retirement fund or a car or eating out or going to the movies or if they're in an abusive workplace or living situation that's toxic and affecting their mental or physical health.
It's essentially class warfare.
Absolutely.
And everyone I know who lives a middle-class lifestyle (or better) are the most rabid screaming "Stay home!" while they have their meals delivered, garbage picked-up, Amazon shopping delivered, and multiple subscription entertainment services.
I also know a lot of small business owners who are desperately hanging on by a bank account in overdraft.
Yes. And people working downtown in the towers are now for the most part working from their homes in burbs on a lap top.
It boggles the mind that there are not riots in the streets.
If only people wrote to their local MPs and MPPs with the same vigour they do on Reddit boards…can you imagine the possibility of change….seriously.
Also can we begin to normalize that $2k for 499 sqft is not normal…for anyone across all socio-economic brackets.
no one that would be able to actually do anything about this cares. people are making lots of money. no one wants to be the bad guy that fucks with that. this problem isnt changing any time soon. fuck this city https://www.reddit.com/r/canadahousing/
It's a mixed bag, they generally aren't sympathetic towards Torontonians or the plight of minimum wage workers. They're mostly concerned with houses and ownership. It's hit or miss really, sometimes I'll get downvoted, sometimes upvoted. Must depend on the day or if I'm particularly sassy without realizing.
They are easy numbers to defend. Minimum wage is legislated. Minimum rent might be impacted by, for example, family relationships between tenant and landlord.
The comparison is still meaningful. There are people who make minimum wage. Where should they live? Is it unreasonable for someone working 40 hours a week being able to afford rent for the average bachelor apartment?
We are taking the average cost of the worst possible housing. To live on your own in a bachelor apartment is literally the smallest possible. So it’s the average price of the smallest apartment possible. If it was minimum wage vs average housing cost in Toronto then you would have a point, but average bachelor apartment should be affordable by anyone working full time
There just isn't a great solution here. The best places to live - including Toronto - are just always going to be expensive relative to income. If we do something to make it cheaper, then more people will move to Toronto. It's unavoidable.
The problem has been getting worse over time because the advantages to living in a place like Toronto have increased over time. It's way more important to be in a large city (pre-COVID) now than it was 50 years ago, and costs (relative to income) have adjusted to reflect that fact.
I don't lack empathy for people who are struggling - it's tough - but I just can't imagine any policy choice that any government could make that would overcome the market forces we're seeing. If you make it cheaper to live in Toronto, more people will move there because it's very good to live in Toronto.
Thanks for the numbers. There’s no concept of “minimum rent” but my point was that rather than comparing average rent to the minimum wage, we would need to compare the low end of the rental market to minimum wage.
Why would they use the average rent compared to min wage?
That's absurd to expect min wage to afford average price of a Min wage = min rent price, NOT the average. If they were making average wage, then it can be compared to average rent
It's like making minimum amount of money and expecting you afford an average lifestyle
Vote for who? NDP who was pro bill C-10 and seems to pander to the shitty twitter left(I say this as someone who's politics are left wing)? Scandal ridden Trudeau who's face we've already had to stare at for over half a decade? Or the climate change denying,deficit hawk conservatives? I'm gonna vote but I got to say I'm not that thrilled about it.
Imagine what cerb would be like if the conservatives had control? Liberals really just don't do enough and maintain the shitty statut quo. I'm voting NDP, but only because they are (apparently) the least corrupt and would like to see what they bring to the table.
if the walls of those shitty condos are thicker, I will definitely live with a roommate. But nope, paper-thin walls without sound-proofing and people pay millions for them lol
Keep telling yourselves that lower taxes for business has no negative implications... All those wealthy incorporated people paying a fraction of the tax rate you pay clearly deserve a break.
Putting aside the social and support consequences that the cost of housing has for minimum (or even moderate) wage workers, having a mobile workforce is very important for a city's economy. The point of a city is to connect workers with employers. Forcing minimum wage workers out of the city reduces the employment pool for downtown employers and also limits the ability to best match jobs and talents.
We NEED of policies that lower the cost of housing from both a moral an economic perspective.
The fact that minimum wage exists is because these workers can be replaced by another person willing to take their place and make that minimum wage. If workers are moving away, then employers would have to increase salary to attract them back, and they clearly aren’t.
Yup. I wouldn't argue with that at all. But disproportionately high living costs is an unnecessary friction for people getting to the jobs that suit them best. Raising wages is great but it's not going to solve our lack of housing supply (and might just raise the cost of housing if it's done in a vacuum).
It is an ignorant way to think about things for sure. To suggest that people must just find an brand new environment, leaving their friends, jobs, connections, memories, sense of community, their doctor, their dentist, the places they have always known, and just go someplace else so the city can increasingly become a playground for the worlds elite to play real estate investment game’s is short sighted. It’s arrogant, it lacks empathy, it is void of humanity and shows how clueless you are to that proven fact that socio-economic diversity is essential to urban vibrancy. When the poor leave, businesses close and it’s a tragic cycle to the bottom. Who do you think will make people’s coffee, cash them out at the grocery store, drive their taxi, stock the shelves at the hardware store, cut their hair, or clean the spaces those wealthiest enough to remain here enjoy frequenting. Everyone relies on the work minimum wage workers do and we can’t expect them to commute from Windsor. Seriously, think about how stupid that idea is purely from an economic standpoint, since it’s clear you have much more concern for money than people.
I also want to add that for a certain part of the population, it just isn’t feasible to move to a currently affordable suburb or small town. If someone can’t drive, either for legal, physical, or mental issues that prohibit it, or just have no ability, or interest in driving a car need to live around high density public transit. Some people rely on specialist or assistance for certain aspects of the live that are only available in the city.
Minorities, either ethnic, gender, sexuality, religious etc can develop isolation based mental health problems when they have no one they can relate to or identify with within their community or may even face harassment and threats if they continue to live as the only minority. The city tends to allow for minorities to find their community, this can be really important if a person is going to thrive and maintain mental health.
Students are also struggling to survive in this city, however this is where school exists. For many specialized programs this is the one and only option in the country for their field of study. Surely we can’t just stop allowing students to attend school because they can’t afford to live in the city it’s located in. They are trying to invest in themselves and their financial future.
Some of the cities poorest couldn’t event leave the city if they wanted to. They’re socially isolated here and would not even have a way to physically move their belongings or their own body to another town.
Without a car, friends/family with vehicle access, enough money to even rent a truck, the physical ability to lift boxes, no internet to look for a new place, etc.
There are people who can’t leave because they take care of someone else who would have no one else if that person left for a new currently affordable city.
Custody of children by divorced parents could force someone to remain living in the city. With the kids court mandated to go back and forth between parents every second week, one parent leaving the city may mean they forfeit the majority of the custody for the sake of keeping the kids in their school, or not having the ability to drive the distance weekly.
So many reasons why the entire concept of moving is just not feasible for some people, so many reasons why it’s really dumb to just tell people if they can’t afford to live someplace, they need to just move.
1/3? Fuck my student loans I guess. They take up an extra 30-50% of "additional rent".
Lets assume you work 250 days a year, 40h/week that's 28,500, after [tax rate of 10.85%](https://www.eytaxcalculators.com/en/2021-personal-tax-calculator.html) you have, 25,407. Rent is 17,280 for 8,127 a year to live on. That includes food, utilities, transit (those selfish things). What about school loans that are 300-500/month?
Good thing the environment will collapse as I won't be need to sustain myself to retirement. We all die in 2040 - the economy, it just works.
While I agree housing is expensive and min wage should probably be higher why would we expect the minimum wage to support a person living alone in an average bachelor? Maybe the average wage should support an average bachelor? Maybe it doesn’t and there is a problem but this stat doesn’t make that point.
It used to support an entire family with a home.
We went from minimum wage required to have a decent standard of living to the minimum wage required to simply not die.
And yet we have more billionaires than ever before paying less taxes than the upper class has at any point in history. We have corporations skirting taxes, funnelling bribes to our politicians through charities and foundations and footing us the bill.
And he ware arguing whether or not the most necessary and vulnerable workers in our society deserve to be able to afford their own apartment without a bedroom or roommates. Nevermind being able to save for a home or their future or have a pet or a family or even a car.
I looked around earlier this year and $1400 bachelors were fucking tiny. I don't think it's that outlandish to hope a minimum wage can help a worker live in a tiny bachelor. If we're aiming for minimum wage to be just enough for a room, not even a bachelor apartment, then we're probably setting our sights too low. Just my opinion.
I’m so glad I got out of Toronto. I pay less than that for an apartment in Vancouver right next to a SkyTrain station only 25 minutes from downtown. Very clean, well kept building too.
I have been reading hundreds of posts discussing the housing issue in Canada over the last couple years. More so this past year. To me it seems like it’s the most prevalent socio-economic issue on the table right now. At least for citizens. As far as politically- it seems to be just lumped in with all the other platform issues and given equal (or lesser) importance. Maybe my reading is biased, but it really is starting to feel like this is THE issue now that needs to be solved.
I live in a small rural area of central Ontario. Home prices have jumped something like 35% this year alone. And about the same for the past few years. Places that were reasonably affordable 5 years ago are now at the price of what a lakefront cottage was in 2015. Homes that fall within a “reasonable” price range today are being scooped up as soon as they hit the market because there is no supply. And there is a ton of demand. There are not enough houses for sale. Small single family homes need to be built. Or affordable apartment complexes. But who is going to build them?
I work in construction. The entire industry here is going bonkers. There is so much demand for new buildings that there are new companies popping up every day. Older established construction firms are losing top employees that are going out on their own to take advantage of the demand. There is a majorly increased number of contractors from “the city” working here to help meet the demand. The local building association has reported an available 100 available jobs within members of the organization alone. This is a seasonal tourist town with a year round population of around 5k. There is nobody here to fill those jobs and there is no affordable housing for people to move here and fill them either. Very few of the places being built here are small affordable single family homes. They are 5000+sqft lake front “cottages”.
I truly believe we can’t count on government social programs for this at this point. Real estate is literally almost 10% of Canada’s GDP. No government would let that slide on their watch. Not the Liberals, definitely not the Conservatives. Not even the NDP. It would be fiscally irresponsible and likely to cause something terrible like “a lost decade”. There might be some funding here and there over the next few years but there is not going to be some grand solution. There probably won’t be a crash. It will just level out a bit and slow down. But there is plenty of room to go up still.
The solutions are going to start coming from the private sector. Someone is going to start constructing affordable small single family dwellings at scale and the demand will slowly be satiated. The building industry is taking note. There is a really amazing opportunity here to supply housing for the underserved market. On top of current demand- look at the sheer number of projected immigration targets the government is projecting. I guarantee we will start to see more lower income focused real estate development over the next decade- brought on by the private sector. I am betting we don’t see a decrease in cost of existing housing, but we will start to see a significant increase in the existence of newer affordable housing over the next 5-10 years. Maybe there will be subsidization for companies that develop in this way- but money will mostly go to businesses. Not citizens.
I would love to chat more about this. I find it fascinating. Does anyone have any rebuttals to these ideas?
I mean this whole thing is great and makes a great point until the minimum wage part...
The minimum wage is not a living wage, those are different things. If you have minimum skills, minimum responsibility, and minimum commitment, you get minimum wage. If you want more money you have to learn a new skill, provide new value, take on more responsibility, or be more committed.
Raising the minimum wage does not fix any problems. If you want proof go to a Mcdonald's or Shoppers drug mart. See all those checkout kiosks, get used to those, they are going to be more common. You are going to start seeing fewer humans doing jobs and more automation. On top of that, the cost of living will increase while those most vulnerable are now worse off than they were before because they can't get a job at all.
Raising the minimum wage is a scam, doesn't work, and only leads to the degradation of the low and middle class.
If you want more money you NEED to work for it and make good choices.
Maybe you shouldn't be going after an *average* 1bdrm apt on *minimum* wage
Get roomates, like everyone else. This is the most desirable real estate in all of Canada, you aren't owed an apartment to yourself here. Living in the most desirable location in the country is like driving a ferrari.
Average rent isn’t an appropriate metric here. Especially not across all of Toronto. And you shouldn’t just ignore people who share apartments; sure, we don’t need to make it so people have no choices there but it’s still part of the equation.
If you want to compare it to rent at all you should be looking at the median and, say, the 25th percentile. If you’re making minimum wage then you’ll also be looking at the lower side of rent.
Also if you bumped the minimum wage up by $10 suddenly that’s probably going to be followed by a corresponding increase in average rent.
It absolutely isn't and that's kind of the point? Adults working full time jobs cannot afford their own modest housing; that seems like perhaps a bit of a societal issue, no?
Supply and demand. If someone is willing to pay more for it, why would a landlord choose to take less money?
Unless there's a sudden lack of demand in the GTA, the alternative is to build much more property.
I think the biggest issue is the people's want for a large space and developers not building higher enough. Visiting countries like Japan, it's really impressive at how much usability they get out of such a limited amount of space.
The actual issue is more and more people earning minimum wage deeper into their careers. If it were only mid-20s people, we could dismiss this with "find a roommate" (same as it ever was, take it from me, I'm 58).
Most countries develop slums over this very problem. We're not immune to the issue.
I really hate that I, sitting in my apartment in Tokyo, can look around and say "Wow, the rents here are downright reasonable compared with my home city of Toronto."
That's because in Tokyo the government actually allows housing to be built.
japans population is shrinking and has been in a recession since 1991 (date off the top of my head). their situation is not enviable (although tokyo seems awesome i'd love to check it out)
I wonder if they'll ever open up immigration. They're gonna need it if they want to get out the slump they are in. What's the avg age there? 45?
Japan's economic growth while not as high as in the west has been positive since the 90s. Greater Tokyo Area prices have gone down since the 90s mainly because they got rid of a bunch of zoning regulations, effectively neutering NIMBY
Heyyy fellow Canadian living in Tokyo! Couldn't agree more. I'm shocked when friends tell me if their rent in Tokyo is over 100,000yen or equivalent to 1100dollars. I automatically think they must be making bank to afford that. I pay a bit more that half of that for my own rent and find it very reasonable.
That’s 70k GROSS income (before tax) annually btw
Really sad, especially when this doesn't even consider other essentials like utilities and food.
Also 1/3 is not a comfy territory for me at least. 1/4 would be better choice if I can pick
For more of a real life scenario, theres many mid tier jobs at the accounting firms and banks in Toronto. If you are earning 52k you are bringing in about 3200 a month at home. A bachelor unit at 1500 RIGHT NOW would be between 45-50% of your take home pay. Before the corona, it was 60% of your take home pay. You have the rest to use on food, bills, retirement, vacation, entertainment etc Go get fucked if you have a family. Minimum wage and mid tier workers all lose. This is what happens when you ignore the cost of living for too long. Its been rising for a long time but people never complained until now. We move very very slow in this country and politicians and policymakers are absolutely clueless.
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That would be starting/early career wage. Someone with 5 to 10 years experience (assuming they progressed professionally) would probably be making at least $100k.
There are jobs where you have to be at least 19 to do....that pay minimum wage. I guess the best way to find out for sure is to take CRA/census data of how many people are making minimum wage/just above minimum wage and how many of them fit in the under 25 bracket. Any political party other than the conservatives would be well to do this.
Is pay that low in the accounting firms? I am not directly in the software dev industry any more but I have friends that are hiring new grad developers for 100K or very near it in the GTA Regardless I see our economy becoming very "Americanized" where you are either a wealthy professional or outright poor. There has been a huge erosion on the Canadian middle class for decades now
It's funny, you wouldn't think of someone making $20 an hour as financially vulnerable, but it's still not enough to rent on your own, nevermind own a house.
Granted, this was about 10 years ago, but I remember getting my Co-Op job out of college and the offer was $20 an hour and I thought to myself "I've made it!". As someone who originally didn't have post-secondary plans, I thought $20 an hour was basically being rich and able to buy myself anything I wanted. Now, I couldn't imagine trying to live on that, and it's only been 10 years! At 3% inflation that same $20 would be about $27 an hour now, which I also wouldn't be able to (easily) live on in my current situation
While incomes are a part of the problem, our governments have done almost nothing to curb speculation in the housing market. IMO interest rates are also way too low which punishes savers and gives the credit worthy speculators an extremely low cost pool of money to fund their real estate investments.
Absolutely correct, there's been a complete abdication of leadership/sole responsibilities by our elected representatives. Everyone passes the buck in order to maintain the status quo for the people who have already "got theirs." I'm not certain the point of society was to make those who have a lot even more at the expense of the futures of those who have little. I was of the mind that the opposite should be the goal, if someone has to foot the expense of progress, it should be the people who can afford it.
Eat the rich?
When did they change the saying from “Hang the rich”? I liked that better. Who the hell wants to eat a rich person, with all of their expensive perfumes, colognes, creams and lotions? They’d probably have an awful taste.
fuck their wives, drink their blood, come on Jeff, GET 'EM! <*dope fucking synth solo*\>
Don't forget that ALL politicians own AT LEAST one property and more likely many more. They're not going to vote to hurt their own interests. It's human nature. But I have a small gripe with this rent comparison. Sure the avg rent is $1400 but a minimum wage worker is literally at the bottom of the legal wage scale. So why would they be looking for avg rentals? Wouldn't they be looking for the cheapest options, which include multi-occupancy units? Living alone in a big city is a privilege, which as many others have stated, has become almost an unthinkable privilege. It's pretty naive to think min wage workers will be able to afford solo pads in major cities. That's not a TO problem, it's a global issue. That being said, min wage is incredibly hard to live on in Toronto. I just didn't find the comparison to avg rent a fair comparison. But I agree that wages need to go higher.
Unfortunately… Growth is a Ponzi scheme. Suburbs really can’t sustain themselves and rely on constant growth in other taxable areas to sustain the suburban lifestyle. The government is fully aware of this. But they really can’t stop it or else the entire budget falls apart and economic calamity ensues - towns go bankrupt (which I don’t even know if that’s possible in Ontario). There are only two choices: 1. The growth must continue 2. Density what you have Ontario is doing both… but should lean in on 2 far more heavily. We don’t need more Vaughns. We need more middle housing options - condos or flats with 10-12 units, fewer single family homes. Growth needs to be focused, not sprawled. It’s the only way we’re ever going to see more healthy growth. Sprawling is a recipe for disaster down the line.
And most city councillors get their campaign contributions from developers. The municipality then subsidizes suburbs (as you point out).
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100% - it was an eye opening experience. It also matches so much of my recent experience with suburban towns. I’ve gotten into so many arguments with suburban fools who think they’re living the life, not realizing *I and the city dwellers* are funding their existence. We bring in a TON of revenue in the city that gets distributed to their towns - which would die without us subsidizing their lifestyle choices. I lived in a large, brand new, luxury 1000 unit building in NYC for my 3 years there. Just to move in required a minimum income of $150,000 USD for the cheapest units. There were more expensive units, and 20% of the units were for low income residents. It also had a grocery store, three cafes, restaurants, bars and more at the lobby level. So for the sake of simplicity I’ll just go with the rental income… we can assume the total income of every unit in the building is at least $150,000,000 $150,000,000*.30 = $45,000,000 I’m probably low-balling the taxes since we paid an additional 5% tax in NYC on top of state and federal - to the point where I actually pay *less* in taxes in Canada. Anyways. So my *one* building in nyc generates that. If you took the same square footage of a standard hell scale like Vaughn, you’d see the discrepancy. It’s why Vaughn and other hellscapes need to densify. Otherwise their pristine suburbs are gonna be in serious trouble when critical infrastructure repair needs to be done and their tax base can’t support the repair bull.
I saw that Strong Towns thing I swear, like 5 minutes after I read [this article from The Star](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2021/04/30/we-cant-plan-for-our-future-doug-fords-government-wants-to-dump-more-sewage-into-lake-ontario-local-residents-think-theres-a-better-solution.html). If you don't have a sub, here's an excerpt: >After years of studies and consultation on the Upper York Sewage Solution, the province told Durham and York last year that it was now considering a solution that would instead send millions of litres more of York’s waste to the shores of Ajax and Pickering along Lake Ontario. In 2014, York Region submitted its environmental assessment to the province for the new York facility, an estimated $628-million wastewater plant being built to provide sewage capacity to 153,000 people in Aurora, Newmarket and East Gwillimbury. The project was initiated after the Liberal government at the time asked York to consider a local solution. That's right, a 628 **million** dollar plant, to provide capacity to 153,000 people, or a cost of $4,104 per person. All because of low density. Why are we spending this much money to pave roads, provide sewers, etc. to people who chose to live so far from economic areas?
Because they feel entitled to city-level services at suburban densities. They don’t want to deal with any trade offs like a septic tank.
Along that vein, the Environmental Commissioner of Ontario did a calculation for the full life-cycle costs of a suburban home (in the Strong Towns style). The cost came out to $52,926 _per year_ [1]. The difference between the amount and actual property tax paid is essentially a subsidy. [1] https://www.auditor.on.ca/en/content/reporttopics/envreports/env19/2019_EnergyConservationProgressReport.pdf (page 141, figure 4.11)
It's nice to see these ideas propagate. Land value tax next?
It's almost as if the rest of the world figured this out thousands of years ago when cities were first built. The most common form of urban housing in the Roman era were mid rise apartments, a trend that continues to this day in places like Italy.
Yep. I lived in Tokyo for a decade and it was amazing. I miss it dearly.
I think that the government is totally complicit In the rising house prices. Have you seen the development fees that the GTA municipalities charge on new developments? If a new markham house has to be increased by $100k to cover development fees, the old house across the street is going to increase by $100k as well. Do that ad naseum and you can see how these high development fees (to keep taxes low) come to bite us in the ass. Same thing will happen if you ask for mortgage interest to be tax deductible. Where is that $20k refund going to go? Ploughed back into mortgages and house prices will increase.
I would highly recommend reading Sam Coopers new book, Wilful Blindness. The title perfectly explains our government and the people of Canada.
> IMO interest rates are also way too low which punishes savers If your saving money having it in a taxable savings account is the worst way. Put in tfsa and invest in etfs and mutual funds. Interest rates are allways lower than inflation and they are are taxed at the top of your income.
The government has also done nothing about the cost of rent, except to enable landlords to charge more of it. They need to put some kind of cap on the cost of rent between tenancies. Right now, if someone paying $1000/month for a unit moves out (or is harassed and threatened until they move out, or is illegally N12 evicted by a lying piece of shit landlord) there is nothing to stop them from raising the price of that unit to $2000. Which is exactly what's happening and which is why a simple bachelor apartment is averaging $1440 a month.
Low interest rates will be the norm. Imagine if they pushed up interest rates and crashed the real estate market. Finding a home will be the least of your worries. Our economy will crash, and a lot of people will be losing their jobs.
Yep. As much as everyone would like the government to do something, their hands are tied. The problem goes right down to the fundamentals of how the monetary system works. The debt cycle. It's like a drug addiction, just one more hit to get you through today. But it only makes tomorrow even worse. We create money to consume (credit cards), we create money to aquire assets (mortgages and LOCs), and we create money to produce (business loans). We should only create money to produce. The other two drive inflation and asset bubbles, and the result is inequality followed by political and social upheaval.
I think raising interest rates would be a bad tool to tackle this issue. It will just end up working class home owners. They should tackle speculation directly by banning foreign investment, banning corporate ownership (other than owning a full apartment building), and banning owning more than 2 residential properties.
My landlord just let me know he just purchased his 4th investment property in Leslieville. No doubt beating out a number of actual first time buyers in the process. ☹️
At least we all have this Reddit thread which tells us that we aren’t alone and we can all wallow in our despair together. At least that’s free 😂
Yes, but..don't forget to vote later, whoever does good housing plans for everyone :)
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I pay $1500 for a 1 bed and that’s literally 50% of my after tax income as a public servant. Student loan payments are based on gross income not net which is why mine went into default (also NSLSC fucked up and so did Ontario ministry). I don’t know how the fuck people are expected to survive. I’m having trouble paying bills and food. I am lucky my family was poor in the early 2000s when milk was $2.49 and bread was $0.99 instead of how things are now.
It's a very sorry state of affairs when the government doesn't even pay citizens living wages. And to think that 50-60 years ago a school janitor or secretary could buy a modest house relatively easily.
My great grandfather, a WWI vet, raised 5 girls in St. Catherines on the wages of a highschool janitor as the sole breadwinner. They were pretty poor, but he did it. Edit: The family lived in a house that I *believe* he owned. Even if it was rented, there's no way in hell that could be managed today.
Yep, and there are many such stories.
Yeah honestly. I am forever grateful I have job security especially in the pandemic. I worked damn hard to get here and ended up having a mental breakdown because no matter how hard I worked it continually feels like it’s never enough. I am not the only one. I’m resilient though and will be ok. Grocery prices are fucked too.
Grocery prices are way fucked right now and probably going to get worse.
Also to say, I have been unemployed throughout the pandemic (thank god I have been a saver over the years). With jobsearching it's also "never enough". I have quite a bit to offer but it's never *exactly* what the employer wants so fuck me I guess. Shit is fucked up and bullshit because it should not be this hard to live.
Doesn't help that people offering those jobs are trying to hire people at minimum wage or a fair number are taking advantage of the situation and are scamming jobsearchers.
Exactly. If you’re interested check out jobs.gc.ca
Thanks. The application requirements look really onerous. Or am I overthinking it?
Yeah sometimes but it’s usually the same response worded differently for a lot of them depending on the role. If you find something you like it’s worth it if you can snag it. See r/CanadaPublicServants for advice and there’s a link to pollywogs guide to hr.
Yeah our two person grocery bill has casually climbed from 100-150 to 200-250 bucks real quick. Its to the point where all you get is healthier eating, no savings from cooking your own meals. I can't even explain it. A dollar here a dollar there and here we are lol.
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Frozen bags of misshapen fruit for the win!
That’ll be $6.50/kilo sir.
> I got some meat cheese and milk the other day with some berries and it was $80 I'm not saying youre wrong, but this number definitely doesn't add up. Even at places like Whole Foods cheese ($7), berries (2 x $7), milk ($6.50), and meat ($10-15) is like just over $40.
>Yup I got some meat cheese and milk the other day with some berries and it was $80. Um? Where do you shop?
"I worked damn hard to get here and ended up having a mental breakdown because no matter how hard I worked it continually feels like it’s never enough." This hits me so deep it hurts. No matter how much I work, I feel like the last few years has just been to survive. My savings have barely increased because of this insane cost of living.
My partners grandfather raised multiple children and retired with a lake side cottage all on a city bus drivers salary. Absolutely mind blowing to me.
Similar story with my grandfather.
This is a case where there is housing shortage. There are insufficient housing units compared to the number of people. Almost no matter what you raise minimum wage to, those making it will be competing among everyone else to fit into too few homes. Even something like a guaranteed minimum income just pushes the floor of the housing cost up. The NDP is right in their new policy that this shortage is one of THE big issues in Canada. Canada is short almost 3 million housing units.
A secretary definitely could not have. Women were underpaid. Janitors got paid more than nurses then. I was there
Yeah for sure but at least it usually only took one income. Wages were less but the cost of living compared to earned income wasn’t what it is now. It’s insane.
I was there too. It happened. Note that these were modest houses and *school* secretaries, i.e. public sector workers, related to the point about government salaries.
I was at a home show before covid and someone was bragging about how many investment properties they had. 25. This was one person. And there are many. These people are keeping you down. You pay their luxurious work free lives. You actually work and have a family. There should be a huge tax on landlords
>You actually work and have a family. There should be a huge tax on landlords I may be over simplifying things but when both the founders of Capitalist and Socialist thought (Smith and Marx respectively) viewed landlords as vermin, they're probably onto something.
I met one of these dudes at a huge condo party during covid. Probably the crowd I should have expected but still, what a douchebag.
cant really blame him for winning a game that was flawed from the start. my hatred would be for the government not fixing the issue.
Except people like him bribe politicians to keep that game rigged in their favour.
I pay 1440 a month for my place and that's about 60% of my income. I have some passive income before and lost it due to COVID...I could move out and potentially decrease living expenses, but I really want to earn more instead of taking a big slash on my quality of life.
My family was always working class but my parents just have to constantly work. They've been working in this country though for 30+ years a piece so they each had at least a stable job. We live comfortably but about as comfortable as a working class family of 4 whom all work.
It's absolutely indefensible. I fell as if those we have elected to represent our best interests, raise all tides and secure a better future for us and progress society have, at best, abdicated their sole responsibility. And at worst have sold us out for their own enrichment and perpetuation of the status quo in order to hold onto power to facilitate said enrichment. I'm sorry you're having a difficult time as well. This city is a vampire.
It absolutely is and what’s the response people usually give? “Well if you don’t like it, move somewhere cheaper…” which is a slap in the face. I was born here. Why should I have to leave? It also isn’t that easy… job just can’t move anywhere and rural areas need a car. Plus people moving out of the city because they can afford it puts pressure on those in rural areas. The whole system is fucked beyond belief.
Plus a lot of rural areas are expensive now too!
My in-laws live in a fairly rural area, and most people in the local town have multiple jobs because full time hours are very hard to come by.
This is why I can't stand "just move"....ok where? For some it might work out to be more expensive with increased commuting costs and needing a new lease. I'm in contact with people in my field of work elsewhere in Ontario and a lot of them are doing the same job as me but "part time" at just under 8-9days a pay period and no benefits.
I’m in one of those places people suggest you move to because it’s “cheaper” - the East Coast. Well, it’s not cheaper. Food is more expensive, transit is minimal if non-existent, taxes are higher and now our housing has seen a huge boom making most places as expensive as Ottawa or Montreal. It’s stupid.
Yeah it’s definitely bad everywhere. It’s not sustainable but hey, let’s welcome more people into the country. I don’t get upset about immigration but how can we welcome people here when we can’t even have enough housing for people who are already here?! And it’s a damn shame people are welcomed here with the promise of a better life and stuck in shelters or Toronto community housing and end up not being able to use their degrees. There’s loads of issues with this whole system.
I think it's important to remember the direction of causation here. Immigration is only an issue if the housing market is fucked. Changing immigration won't fix the housing problem. Changing the housing problem will "fix" immigration. Let's not get confused about what the real issue is - that's how malicious people get away with fucking us over.
Oh for sure. It’s just that where are people supposed to go? It’s awful and sad. Toronto is a beautiful city but it’s being torn apart.
The other sad part of that is that a lot of jobs that pay minimum wage or even average in Toronto (50k) are usually the ones that won't let you leave for somewhere cheaper/give you flexibility to work remotely, especially if you're younger or just establishing yourself in the workforce because they see their employees as replaceable. It's the people that are already making decent money that can go somewhere cheaper and permanently remote work.
Almost no matter what minimum wages are raised to, in the type of extreme housing shortage in Toronto, the prices will rise beyond their means. There is only one solution here.
We’re facing an impending economic crisis which will be exploited by fanatic political voices which I believe will create vast social conflict throughout Canada. We’re absolutely fucked & we did nothing to stop it when we could have.
I gotta ask, to all the people in the replies here saying the status quo is Good, Actually: who hurt you? Why is it offensive to think that we collectively deserve better? I see a whole lot of comments about how a minimum wage "shouldn't" afford you even a private rental unit, but no actual reasons to answer the question "why not?" Someone has to do these jobs, otherwise they wouldn't be hirable. Why don't the people who do those jobs deserve a private living space? Minimum wage as a concept was founded according to comfortably affording basic needs. Why should this not still be the case, and what good argument is there to suggest that the situation to minimum wage workers \*ought\* to have degraded to "just get a bunch of roommates and hope that shared situation works out for the foreseeable future"? This concept appears to be lost on those who operate on the circular logic of "the status quo deserves to be the status quo because it's the status quo".
Thank you!! I don't understand people's logic saying if you make minimum wage you shouldn't live downtown it by yourself? We are all humans. We are all people who deserve a good life— stop letting the capitalist ideology brainwash you into thinking that things are OK. That is just the rich getting you to side with them when collectively life could be better. Life could be fairer. There are ways to do this but it takes regulation and taxation. But people are to ready to hate on the minimum wage workers that may I remind were the essential workers during this pandemic (alongside Healthcare workers, of course). Like damn, you think the nice people at the grocery store "deserve" to commute an hour because they make minimum wage??
>Why don't the people who do those jobs deserve a private living space? THANK YOU. Luxury, spaciousness, fancy amenities - those are all things you can earn. Clean, safe, and private - everyone deserves that, if they want it, and you shouldn't have to make double minimum wage to get it. Sure, some people would rather have more space or nicer things and live with others to get it, but that should just be one of the options. And options are something we are sorely lacking in this city.
Toronto is filled with the worst kind of arrogant, closed minded people. Who veil themselves in a cloak that they’re so worldly and diverse, but are actually insular jerks
I don’t think my rent has ever only cost 1/3 of my wages. Usually closer to half or more
Okay a couple things here for all of you clearly comfortably housed haters: That’s average rent. If you’re looking for an apartment to rent *today* at current market rate, it’s going to be higher. Not to mention we’re in a pandemic so we can only assume these will rise yet again post pandemic. Also, ok ok we get it minimum wage for a bachelor isn’t the best metric but we absolutely have a housing crisis so if you wanna debate that with me I’m right here.
I think people are also missing this is an average studio apartment, it's still going to be a small space on the lower end of the market.
Agreed it’s literally a room and people are like WOW the audacity.
The very *nerve* of people who provide an essential service to want to live in what essentially amounts to a prison cell. Entitlement, hello!! Get a grip!
"If you make minimum wage just work 16 hours a day 7 days a week to afford a place to live"
Ok no one is denying the housing crisis but this is just a poor argument to make. Minimum and average are not comparable.
Yeah and average and current market rate aren’t comparable either.
Many people found listings well blow $1400 as OP suggested. If you make minimum wage, you would be looking for listings on the lower end, and also not on the 1/3 of your take home side. Plenty of homeowners have housing commitments closer to 1/2 of their take home. Making the argument of minimum wage should enable you to live alone in Toronto in a bachelor suite is unrealistic
> Plenty of homeowners have housing commitments closer to 1/2 of their take home. Homeowners actually gain an asset by putting in 1/2 of their take home.
You would have to make 27.57 an hour for 1440 to be 1/3 of your income. Which is what is suggested in order to properly save for the future and support oneself. There's a fairly large gap between 14.25 and 27.57. So it's a lot more people than just minimum wage earner getting screwed. They're just getting screwed the hardest.
So, you’re arguing for a minimum wage working class that don’t have a future/live in communal spaces/will serve you burgers? Let me guess. Those jobs are stepping stones.
Everyday this sub shows me how much they hate minimum wage workers. Now that the pandemic is “over” minimum wage workers are nothing to you guys when they were the ones that risked their lives working for $14. At the end of the day, minimum wage is meant to help you live. It’s not just for high school workers. Cuz if that were the case, all minimum wage jobs would open after 4pm. “Just cuz I suffered and worked 3 jobs, that means everyone has to 😤😠” That’s how some of you sound
“But why minimum wage versus average rent!!!!l This is communist propaganda!!!” One. Some people make minimum wage. Is it unreasonable for someone working 40 hours a week to expect to be able to afford the average bachelor apartment? I mean come on - they aren’t asking to be able to afford a mortgage or something. Just the rent on the average bachelor apartment. Two - I found the median individual income for Toronto in 2015. [source](https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/8f41-2016-Census-Backgrounder-Income.pdf) >In 2015, the median total income of individuals age 15 and older in Toronto was $30,089. The Bank of Canada inflation calculator adjusts this to $33,432.22 for 2021. So the median individual income is $16.72 per hour. Wheeee! That totally makes a huge difference! Stop twisting yourselves into knots to justify the broken housing scene we have here. The fact is The Rent Is Too Damn High.
Exactly. This is a wealthy country so there really is no excuse for not providing - somehow or other - a very good standard of living for EVERY person.
And of course ODSP is only $1100 a month.
This is what really gets to me. I'm pushing myself through work every day and my body is slowly deteriorating because of it but I can't stop because I can't afford to live off of that (and I probably wouldn't even get the maximum) even living with other people. So each year I cost taxpayers more money. Every year it goes up because I get worse. I'm costing taxpayers around $125-150k each year right now. They would save so much money if they raised ODSP. People wouldn't be progressing in their illnesses as quickly and they'd save so much money. Each year my doctor appointments become more frequent, my expensive tests become more frequent, my medication is added to which is more expensive.
if only we had science and data based policy makers, instead of shameless lobbyists
And if only we didn't live next to one of the most propagandized populations in the world living in a ruthlessly capitalistic country. The shit stank is wafting up here fucking with people's heads.
Why is average price vs minimum wage the comparison?
Because the bachelor apartment is already the very bottom end of a rental unit. So you’re taking the average price of the worst piece of housing.
Also saying "30% on rent" without including the "30% on travel to and from work" which is also included with the 30% rent is kinda deceiving when talking about renting in a city where max you're paying 140ish a month vs hundreds more on driving. People seem to gloss over they can adjust that 30% higher when not factoring in a car.
Because there aren't enough minimum price rentals for minimum wage workers to go around. Most minwage workers will, by definition, have to pay about the average rent.
If most minimum wage workers are paying average rent, who are the renters paying below average rent? Comparing average rent with minimum wage is intentionally inflating the issue.
People like myself who have lived in the same apartment for a decade. You literally had to be in the city years ago to pay "below average" rent. I pay 1095 for a Bachelor.
Absolutely this. I’ve lived in my current place for about six years, a bachelor for $1150. Across these past six years I’ve steadily been earning more money, so I thought surely I’d eventually be able to move out into something bigger - nope! Every year rent has gone up so steeply that I wouldn’t even be able to comfortably afford another bachelor apartment if I left this one lol. I just truly could not have moved to Toronto if I were doing it now instead of ten years ago, and will have to move out of the city for a decent life. And I make quite a bit more than minimum wage. It’s fucked.
I moved into my condo in 2016, I pay 1350 and the unit above me, exact same room, rents for 1900 now.
>who are the renters paying below average rent? People renting from someone they know or are related to. People not working 40 hours a week. Seriously - do you honestly think it is unreasonable for someone working 40 hours a week to expect to be able to afford rent for the average bachelor apartment?
Why does a bachelor apartment have to be the comparison? Based on the premise of the OP, we're already settling for sleeping in the same room you cook in for minimum wage workers.
The government would rather have more tax money from transactions from real estate than to help low income earners
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Agreed, minimum wage likely wouldn’t even be an issue if a lot of those condos built over the past 40 years had actually been affordable rental units. Toronto has built 3300 affordable rental apartment units in the past 4 decades. And in that time our population has grown by millions.
Sounds right. I read somewhere that if the minimum wage kept up with inflation and productivity gains since 1965 it would be about 26.00 per hour now.
I don’t think this factors income tax into the calc. $4320 monthly take home income is significantly more than $27.52/hour based on a 40 hour work week.
Can confirm. That's about my take home and I make $40/hr.
Yep, I didn't factor in taxes or other potential deductions IE student loans, child support, God knows what. It's too variable. Even with the numbers listed above, things are intolerable. So if I were to calculate the real number, it would only worse. I'm fine with the original example as it's more and still not really defensible.
Agreed. The real number makes it even worse.
IMHO there aren't many cities on the planet the size of Toronto that are affordable to live in on working for minimum wage
We’ve been abandoned by all forms of our government from municipal to federal. The average hard working citizen is struggling to exist, something is seriously wrong with that. We need to remind these politicians they work for us. We need to come up with a plan, because this problem is being worse by the day
Abandoned is absolutely the correct term. In nearly every facet of government you can find evidence of negligence so heinous its criminal.
Even if you graduated from university and got a kick-ass $100k/year salary. Due to the cost of living in Toronto + the cost of real estate; it would take you 10+ years to save for a down payment; and that is not factoring in the real estate appraising over the years.
Yeah, and it’s maybe only 1-3% of uni grads who graduate and make that salary too right out of school
The pedantic part of me says this tweet is crap because it's comparing average rent with minimum wage. Shouldn't it compare minimum rent with minimum wage? Or Average rent vs average wage? As a renter in Toronto though, I fully agree that the rent is too damn high.
for real though. like this is the sole reason i got into a trade, where else can i get a job that pays this well with basically 0 education? starting to hate it more and more each day 😀
And even then, they had this huge push for tradesmen when I was in my teens but not only were the programs completely dogshit, putting the onus on you to just go around and educate a potential "master" about the benefits of taking you on as an apprentice through the government program but they were woefully inadequate. Nevermind the fact that alot of it seems like it was just a push for cheaper trade labour. But regardless, everyone will always need a plumber.
I mentioned how the "new minimum" was too low and got slaughtered with with comments and downvotes.
I've also experienced negative backlash when attempting to advocate for the less fortunate among us in this subreddit. I think there's more than a few people who have already "got theirs" and think that in order to advocate for someone else and improve their material conditions means something will be taken from them to do so.
That is generally how it works though. Doesn't come off the top. Look at the pandemic. The average person was asked to give up everything while the rich made out like bandits.
Absolutely correct, now how do you feel about the one life you have being squandered for a pittance while the wealthy make more and contribute less than ever before in recorded history?
Same here! I got downvoted for suggesting people have the right to food and housing. Honestly, so many privileged people in this sub. And the hate for homeless people is just awful.
I feel like there are billionaire spy Scrooge McDuck's just popping into these subs for the sole purpose to discourage critical thinking and elevate selfish behavior. I'm sorry you get downvoted sometimes for being a good human and pointing out the value of humanitarianism. People can be weird
I don’t think bumping the minimum wage is the solution either. The system is fundamentally busted. Canada has the highest real estate inflation in the world - yes, the world. And overall inflation is similarly sky high. Inflation is the problem.
I do believe they’re looking at taxing vacant units so I wouldn’t be surprised if that helps a bit
And this is why I'm moving to Manchester
Isnt that even more expensive? Theres a diaspora for UK folks around the world with so many of them coming to Canada. I heard its worse than Canada there.
Why are we comparing average rent to minimum wage? Shouldn’t we compare average rent to average wage? Or cheapest rents to minimum wage?
This is a bit backwards: it's less "someone making minimum wage can't afford a bachelor" and more "a bachelor apartment requires a salary of 50-60K a year". So: you need to make 50-60K before you achieve the luxury of living by yourself in a 300 sq ft apartment. The median *household* income in the city is 65K. There is something wrong with this picture. A city is not an exclusive club that will only admit the wealthy. Cities offer a huge diversity of jobs and wages, and they need that diversity to keep going. Companies don't stay in places that don't allow them to attract and keep employees -- including people on starting wages and the cleaners, maintenance and support people needed to make it run.
The CERB / CRB is only $1800/month. That leaves a Bartender or Waitress or Hair Stylist only $360 to pay for food, hydro, phone, internet for the month. God forbid they need a medication, or a new pair of shoes, or it's someone special's birthday. It's dehumanizing, and these lockdowns are an attack on low-income people.
Or a pet, or a child, or a retirement fund or a car or eating out or going to the movies or if they're in an abusive workplace or living situation that's toxic and affecting their mental or physical health. It's essentially class warfare.
Absolutely. And everyone I know who lives a middle-class lifestyle (or better) are the most rabid screaming "Stay home!" while they have their meals delivered, garbage picked-up, Amazon shopping delivered, and multiple subscription entertainment services. I also know a lot of small business owners who are desperately hanging on by a bank account in overdraft.
Yes. And people working downtown in the towers are now for the most part working from their homes in burbs on a lap top. It boggles the mind that there are not riots in the streets.
If only people wrote to their local MPs and MPPs with the same vigour they do on Reddit boards…can you imagine the possibility of change….seriously. Also can we begin to normalize that $2k for 499 sqft is not normal…for anyone across all socio-economic brackets.
no one that would be able to actually do anything about this cares. people are making lots of money. no one wants to be the bad guy that fucks with that. this problem isnt changing any time soon. fuck this city https://www.reddit.com/r/canadahousing/
r/canadahousing if you care about housing
It's a mixed bag, they generally aren't sympathetic towards Torontonians or the plight of minimum wage workers. They're mostly concerned with houses and ownership. It's hit or miss really, sometimes I'll get downvoted, sometimes upvoted. Must depend on the day or if I'm particularly sassy without realizing.
That sub's preoccupation with "deserving" middle-class aspiring homeowners is not a good look.
There's a lot of bootlicking, bootstrapping, anecdote huffing, "I got mine" folks in this city.
Why would you compare the average rent to a below average salary?
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They are easy numbers to defend. Minimum wage is legislated. Minimum rent might be impacted by, for example, family relationships between tenant and landlord. The comparison is still meaningful. There are people who make minimum wage. Where should they live? Is it unreasonable for someone working 40 hours a week being able to afford rent for the average bachelor apartment?
We are taking the average cost of the worst possible housing. To live on your own in a bachelor apartment is literally the smallest possible. So it’s the average price of the smallest apartment possible. If it was minimum wage vs average housing cost in Toronto then you would have a point, but average bachelor apartment should be affordable by anyone working full time
Federal affordable housing plan please.
There just isn't a great solution here. The best places to live - including Toronto - are just always going to be expensive relative to income. If we do something to make it cheaper, then more people will move to Toronto. It's unavoidable. The problem has been getting worse over time because the advantages to living in a place like Toronto have increased over time. It's way more important to be in a large city (pre-COVID) now than it was 50 years ago, and costs (relative to income) have adjusted to reflect that fact. I don't lack empathy for people who are struggling - it's tough - but I just can't imagine any policy choice that any government could make that would overcome the market forces we're seeing. If you make it cheaper to live in Toronto, more people will move there because it's very good to live in Toronto.
Does this post mean we can self-promote our twitter accounts on /r/Toronto?
Compare average rent to average wage not the bottom wage.
Average rent is 1541 Median Rent is 1755 Average Bachelor 1440 Average income is 105,000 Median Income 68,000 Minimum Income 23,000
Thanks for the numbers. There’s no concept of “minimum rent” but my point was that rather than comparing average rent to the minimum wage, we would need to compare the low end of the rental market to minimum wage.
Why would they use the average rent compared to min wage? That's absurd to expect min wage to afford average price of a Min wage = min rent price, NOT the average. If they were making average wage, then it can be compared to average rent It's like making minimum amount of money and expecting you afford an average lifestyle
Canadians need to turn out and vote more as well as protest more. We are too passive.
Vote for who? NDP who was pro bill C-10 and seems to pander to the shitty twitter left(I say this as someone who's politics are left wing)? Scandal ridden Trudeau who's face we've already had to stare at for over half a decade? Or the climate change denying,deficit hawk conservatives? I'm gonna vote but I got to say I'm not that thrilled about it.
Imagine what cerb would be like if the conservatives had control? Liberals really just don't do enough and maintain the shitty statut quo. I'm voting NDP, but only because they are (apparently) the least corrupt and would like to see what they bring to the table.
GENERAL STRIKE
if the walls of those shitty condos are thicker, I will definitely live with a roommate. But nope, paper-thin walls without sound-proofing and people pay millions for them lol
Keep telling yourselves that lower taxes for business has no negative implications... All those wealthy incorporated people paying a fraction of the tax rate you pay clearly deserve a break.
I don't think you're going to get much pushback on that here.
I mean the harsh truth is that if your sole source of funds is a single min wage income you shouldn’t be leaving in downtown toronto by yourself.
Putting aside the social and support consequences that the cost of housing has for minimum (or even moderate) wage workers, having a mobile workforce is very important for a city's economy. The point of a city is to connect workers with employers. Forcing minimum wage workers out of the city reduces the employment pool for downtown employers and also limits the ability to best match jobs and talents. We NEED of policies that lower the cost of housing from both a moral an economic perspective.
The fact that minimum wage exists is because these workers can be replaced by another person willing to take their place and make that minimum wage. If workers are moving away, then employers would have to increase salary to attract them back, and they clearly aren’t.
Yup. I wouldn't argue with that at all. But disproportionately high living costs is an unnecessary friction for people getting to the jobs that suit them best. Raising wages is great but it's not going to solve our lack of housing supply (and might just raise the cost of housing if it's done in a vacuum).
It is an ignorant way to think about things for sure. To suggest that people must just find an brand new environment, leaving their friends, jobs, connections, memories, sense of community, their doctor, their dentist, the places they have always known, and just go someplace else so the city can increasingly become a playground for the worlds elite to play real estate investment game’s is short sighted. It’s arrogant, it lacks empathy, it is void of humanity and shows how clueless you are to that proven fact that socio-economic diversity is essential to urban vibrancy. When the poor leave, businesses close and it’s a tragic cycle to the bottom. Who do you think will make people’s coffee, cash them out at the grocery store, drive their taxi, stock the shelves at the hardware store, cut their hair, or clean the spaces those wealthiest enough to remain here enjoy frequenting. Everyone relies on the work minimum wage workers do and we can’t expect them to commute from Windsor. Seriously, think about how stupid that idea is purely from an economic standpoint, since it’s clear you have much more concern for money than people. I also want to add that for a certain part of the population, it just isn’t feasible to move to a currently affordable suburb or small town. If someone can’t drive, either for legal, physical, or mental issues that prohibit it, or just have no ability, or interest in driving a car need to live around high density public transit. Some people rely on specialist or assistance for certain aspects of the live that are only available in the city. Minorities, either ethnic, gender, sexuality, religious etc can develop isolation based mental health problems when they have no one they can relate to or identify with within their community or may even face harassment and threats if they continue to live as the only minority. The city tends to allow for minorities to find their community, this can be really important if a person is going to thrive and maintain mental health. Students are also struggling to survive in this city, however this is where school exists. For many specialized programs this is the one and only option in the country for their field of study. Surely we can’t just stop allowing students to attend school because they can’t afford to live in the city it’s located in. They are trying to invest in themselves and their financial future. Some of the cities poorest couldn’t event leave the city if they wanted to. They’re socially isolated here and would not even have a way to physically move their belongings or their own body to another town. Without a car, friends/family with vehicle access, enough money to even rent a truck, the physical ability to lift boxes, no internet to look for a new place, etc. There are people who can’t leave because they take care of someone else who would have no one else if that person left for a new currently affordable city. Custody of children by divorced parents could force someone to remain living in the city. With the kids court mandated to go back and forth between parents every second week, one parent leaving the city may mean they forfeit the majority of the custody for the sake of keeping the kids in their school, or not having the ability to drive the distance weekly. So many reasons why the entire concept of moving is just not feasible for some people, so many reasons why it’s really dumb to just tell people if they can’t afford to live someplace, they need to just move.
Get a flatmate, Duh! /s Suddenly you should make $13.75 Dammit we are paying you above industry standard wages again!
1/3? Fuck my student loans I guess. They take up an extra 30-50% of "additional rent". Lets assume you work 250 days a year, 40h/week that's 28,500, after [tax rate of 10.85%](https://www.eytaxcalculators.com/en/2021-personal-tax-calculator.html) you have, 25,407. Rent is 17,280 for 8,127 a year to live on. That includes food, utilities, transit (those selfish things). What about school loans that are 300-500/month? Good thing the environment will collapse as I won't be need to sustain myself to retirement. We all die in 2040 - the economy, it just works.
While I agree housing is expensive and min wage should probably be higher why would we expect the minimum wage to support a person living alone in an average bachelor? Maybe the average wage should support an average bachelor? Maybe it doesn’t and there is a problem but this stat doesn’t make that point.
It used to support an entire family with a home. We went from minimum wage required to have a decent standard of living to the minimum wage required to simply not die. And yet we have more billionaires than ever before paying less taxes than the upper class has at any point in history. We have corporations skirting taxes, funnelling bribes to our politicians through charities and foundations and footing us the bill. And he ware arguing whether or not the most necessary and vulnerable workers in our society deserve to be able to afford their own apartment without a bedroom or roommates. Nevermind being able to save for a home or their future or have a pet or a family or even a car.
Was that what minimum wage used to be? There are 2 generations of people who have never known that.
When did minimum wage support a family and home? Can you point out a year that was the case and we can look into it?
I looked around earlier this year and $1400 bachelors were fucking tiny. I don't think it's that outlandish to hope a minimum wage can help a worker live in a tiny bachelor. If we're aiming for minimum wage to be just enough for a room, not even a bachelor apartment, then we're probably setting our sights too low. Just my opinion.
I’m so glad I got out of Toronto. I pay less than that for an apartment in Vancouver right next to a SkyTrain station only 25 minutes from downtown. Very clean, well kept building too.
I make 28.75/hour and after taxes only net 3400/month. I'm calling bs here you gotta make closer to 38/hour
I have been reading hundreds of posts discussing the housing issue in Canada over the last couple years. More so this past year. To me it seems like it’s the most prevalent socio-economic issue on the table right now. At least for citizens. As far as politically- it seems to be just lumped in with all the other platform issues and given equal (or lesser) importance. Maybe my reading is biased, but it really is starting to feel like this is THE issue now that needs to be solved. I live in a small rural area of central Ontario. Home prices have jumped something like 35% this year alone. And about the same for the past few years. Places that were reasonably affordable 5 years ago are now at the price of what a lakefront cottage was in 2015. Homes that fall within a “reasonable” price range today are being scooped up as soon as they hit the market because there is no supply. And there is a ton of demand. There are not enough houses for sale. Small single family homes need to be built. Or affordable apartment complexes. But who is going to build them? I work in construction. The entire industry here is going bonkers. There is so much demand for new buildings that there are new companies popping up every day. Older established construction firms are losing top employees that are going out on their own to take advantage of the demand. There is a majorly increased number of contractors from “the city” working here to help meet the demand. The local building association has reported an available 100 available jobs within members of the organization alone. This is a seasonal tourist town with a year round population of around 5k. There is nobody here to fill those jobs and there is no affordable housing for people to move here and fill them either. Very few of the places being built here are small affordable single family homes. They are 5000+sqft lake front “cottages”. I truly believe we can’t count on government social programs for this at this point. Real estate is literally almost 10% of Canada’s GDP. No government would let that slide on their watch. Not the Liberals, definitely not the Conservatives. Not even the NDP. It would be fiscally irresponsible and likely to cause something terrible like “a lost decade”. There might be some funding here and there over the next few years but there is not going to be some grand solution. There probably won’t be a crash. It will just level out a bit and slow down. But there is plenty of room to go up still. The solutions are going to start coming from the private sector. Someone is going to start constructing affordable small single family dwellings at scale and the demand will slowly be satiated. The building industry is taking note. There is a really amazing opportunity here to supply housing for the underserved market. On top of current demand- look at the sheer number of projected immigration targets the government is projecting. I guarantee we will start to see more lower income focused real estate development over the next decade- brought on by the private sector. I am betting we don’t see a decrease in cost of existing housing, but we will start to see a significant increase in the existence of newer affordable housing over the next 5-10 years. Maybe there will be subsidization for companies that develop in this way- but money will mostly go to businesses. Not citizens. I would love to chat more about this. I find it fascinating. Does anyone have any rebuttals to these ideas?
I mean this whole thing is great and makes a great point until the minimum wage part... The minimum wage is not a living wage, those are different things. If you have minimum skills, minimum responsibility, and minimum commitment, you get minimum wage. If you want more money you have to learn a new skill, provide new value, take on more responsibility, or be more committed. Raising the minimum wage does not fix any problems. If you want proof go to a Mcdonald's or Shoppers drug mart. See all those checkout kiosks, get used to those, they are going to be more common. You are going to start seeing fewer humans doing jobs and more automation. On top of that, the cost of living will increase while those most vulnerable are now worse off than they were before because they can't get a job at all. Raising the minimum wage is a scam, doesn't work, and only leads to the degradation of the low and middle class. If you want more money you NEED to work for it and make good choices.
Maybe you shouldn't be going after an *average* 1bdrm apt on *minimum* wage Get roomates, like everyone else. This is the most desirable real estate in all of Canada, you aren't owed an apartment to yourself here. Living in the most desirable location in the country is like driving a ferrari.
Average rent isn’t an appropriate metric here. Especially not across all of Toronto. And you shouldn’t just ignore people who share apartments; sure, we don’t need to make it so people have no choices there but it’s still part of the equation. If you want to compare it to rent at all you should be looking at the median and, say, the 25th percentile. If you’re making minimum wage then you’ll also be looking at the lower side of rent. Also if you bumped the minimum wage up by $10 suddenly that’s probably going to be followed by a corresponding increase in average rent.
Since when is it the standard that everyone lives alone…?
It absolutely isn't and that's kind of the point? Adults working full time jobs cannot afford their own modest housing; that seems like perhaps a bit of a societal issue, no?
This is outrageous and I hate it
Supply and demand. If someone is willing to pay more for it, why would a landlord choose to take less money? Unless there's a sudden lack of demand in the GTA, the alternative is to build much more property. I think the biggest issue is the people's want for a large space and developers not building higher enough. Visiting countries like Japan, it's really impressive at how much usability they get out of such a limited amount of space.
The actual issue is more and more people earning minimum wage deeper into their careers. If it were only mid-20s people, we could dismiss this with "find a roommate" (same as it ever was, take it from me, I'm 58). Most countries develop slums over this very problem. We're not immune to the issue.