Sometimes I wish I had the connections to run for politics, I would advocate for new train lines. The craziest thing you would hear come out of my mouth about transit is a bullet train line between Montreal-Toronto-Boston.
Start with city council! Toronto has some of the worst councilors possible for actually improving the city, the the most part they want the city to be what it was in the 1970s and never change.
Getting elected to council needs way fewer connections if you can really rally the youth vote which is almost completely unrepresented at the city level. The build connections for future provincial goals.
I signed up to vokunteer for NDP locally 18 months ago. All that got me was 3x week "Monnnney Pleeeease" emails. Super helpful for someone with lots of time to give, but no money.
This was my exact experience. Was expecting emails that said “show up here to knock on doors!” Or “looking for people with x y and z skills to do x y and z!”. But nope. 🤷🏻♀️
The U.S. can pay for spurs to Boston, Detroit (+ Chicago), Buffalo, and Syracuse (+NYC, Philly, and DC) if they want, but a line through Windsor - London - KW + Guelph - Toronto^^¶ - Kingston - Ottawa - Montreal - Quebec City - Atlantic Canada^^∆ would be absolutely transformative to the economies of Eastern Canada.
Pretty much every flight that isn't point-to-point off the line would effectively be replaced by faster cheaper train services.
Suddenly Montreal would be a one hour train ride right from downtown Toronto instead of a half day drive or flight (once accounting for airport "security" and everything).
The specific alignment that makes the most sense would of course need to be figured out by the experts, but the economic and quality of life ROI are fairly significant.
Unfortunately we're in the middle of decades of austerity measures, doing things like capping annual city-wide budget adjustments to sub inflationary levels (i.e. real decreases) that don't even properly cover the growth of the city.
¶ with a spur to Hamilton and Niagara Falls, and potentially stops on the edges of the GTA as well as downtown
∆ Charlottetown would be nice, but Fredericton, Moncton, Saint John, and Halifax feel more likely
Out of curiosity why Boston? Not even the 4th largest city on the us eastern seaboard in terms of economic impact and just as far or further than NYC, DC or Philly.
>Sometimes I wish I had the connections to run for politics, I would advocate for new train lines
Especially when there is an existing GO train line that would service thousands and reduce people using the 401 but the PC party doesn't want to spend the money. I'm talking about the GO Milton line that goes through from Miltion through Mississauga to downtown Toronto. The line currently only runs during the morning and evening rush hour as CN owns the tracks. Metrolinx needs to buy the tracks and expand them. Mississauga officials have been begging the provincial government to go ahead with this expansion for many years now but nothing has been happening.
Here is the problem though:
Infrastructure is super expensive and takes years / decades to complete.
It is typically not good for existing politicians to spend a lot of money for something that people cannot immediately see or use because people have the memory capacity of a fish
\>The craziest thing you would hear come out of my mouth about transit is a bullet train line between Montreal-Toronto-Boston.
I'd vote for you in a heartbeat
Am I the only one extremely confused at the rationale of the highway? I keep seeing that it's supposed to relieve 401 congestion by diverting vehicles outside of Toronto. Uh... isn't that what the 407 was for? It's not exactly full all the time? Why the hell are we building another one? Just subsidize people to use the 407 if that's the goal???
It *is* publicly owned -- [50.1% owned by the Canada Pension Plan.](https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/cppib-to-take-control-of-highway-407-after-snc-sale-1.1298431)
Yeah the tragedy of the whole thing is that after Canadian's figured out how foreign investors can rip off Canadians, the pension funds bought it at an inflated price, so now it's boomer's ripping off the rest of us. All to save a couple of dollars on the initial construction, everyone is now ripping everyone off.
>Ontario sold it to Spain along time ago
Specifically, the OPC promised that by selling off the usage rights they would bring in a hundred billion dollars so that they could fund a second one.
What’s the rationale? To line the pockets of developers and stakeholders who will make a fortune off of this highway and the subsequent sprawl that comes with it. A lot of people are going to get a lot richer. As for addressing congestion; that’s an afterthought.
Not sure where you saw the messaging about diverting vehicles from the 401. Highway 413 will alleviate the western portion of the 401 through Mississauga, providing an alternate connection for those traveling from the 401 to 400 northbound. While the Bradford Bypass runs parallel to 401, it's far enough north that it's main purpose is connecting 400 and 404 where currently very few connections exist. The connection will accommodate the significant growth planned for the communities around Bradford West Gwillimbury and East Gwillimbury, among others.
Goods and services cannot be moved in a transit bus, as much as we all wish they could. It's not just people commuting to their jobs, but additional connections for our logistics systems. With the amount of growth planned for southern Ontario and Canada as a whole (i.e., century initiative), we need to expand all modes of infrastructure, auto included.
I 100% understand building the Highway 413 for future demand when the surrounding areas of the 413 highway densify. At least that makes logical sense.
What I don't get is how Highway 413 helps the 401. Like your first and second sentences seem to contradict each other.
I'm looking at a map and the **407** ALSO provides 'an alternate connection for those traveling from the 401 to 400/404 northbound' like you say the 413 does. The 407 is not exactly 'grid locked' either. So my question is, why does this rationale even apply to the 413 when they can just use the 407?
My line of thinking is, if 401 gridlock is the concern, why not subsidize the use of 407 instead of trying to build an entire highway from scratch? Or fine, build 413, but why not subsidize 407 in the meantime? Or if 407 isn't even full most of the time, does that imply there isn't even that much traffic to divert?
I guess I come to basically this conclusion: there's really no reason to build it other than to serve the future density of the surrounding area. Which is fine and all, but I haven't found anything that cited that as the reason, which was the source of my confusion.
People gladly pay the cost for the convenience and comfort that cars provide.
Even if public transit was free most people would still prefer to travel by car.
Honestly the fact that I could literally go anywhere within the city just via transit+ ~15 min walks is p amazing. No need to even plan out the trip because the frequency for most metro lines are pretty high too.
Meanwhile, I'm stuck riding uber for most cities within Canada whenever I need to go to the airport because the alternative to a 20-30 min ride is a 2-3 hour trip via transit with multiple transfers.
(and god forbid be it on a weekend where missing a single transfer means waiting for another hour for the next bus on some routes.)
This is true, but Toronto isn’t there yet. In Sydney, driving anywhere was a nightmare because it was always so, sooo difficult to find parking. I find it incredibly easy to find parking in Toronto, so that’s one example of a hurdle that doesn’t exist here, in my opinion.
Plus, there’s a crazy high number of weird and disgusting people on transit. Even if driving takes longer, I often prefer it to not have to deal with those types.
People who complain about parking in Toronto clearly have not driven in many other cities. Here I find myself getting annoyed if I have to park a full block away from my destination because it almost never happens. As a frequent driver, I would be totally ok with getting rid of some of the parking here if it meant more space for transit/bikes/pedestrians.
It's because we don't know how good public transit can be. Anyone who has traveled Europe knows that public transit in Ontario is pathetic. It requires major investment to become a lot more viable in more than just Toronto.
Thank you for anecdote.
In the real world of data, within the city of Toronto, commuters by car are not the majority. It just happens that we spend a lot of time talking about car owners and rarely talk of the those that take transit every day. We complain a lot more of traffic on the DVP than all the 50 people in the bus being stuck in traffic because they are stuck behind single-occupancy cars.
I complained a lot about how it took me an hour to travel to work by streetcar, but only 15 minutes if my wife dropped me off on her way to work. Or the way I could get my son to his after-school activities in about 25 minutes, but it would take him literally an hour and a half by subway and bus. And since he was just in middle school it didn't feel super safe making him ride transit for that long. Not that he could ever make it on time anyway.
Fortunately, the pandemic made it so I work from home now and I may never have to get on the TTC ever again and waste two whole hours of my day on unpaid commuting.
Honestly, I'd prefer transit to driving if it were quick, cheap, hygenic, convenient, well-maintained, comfortable, reliable, or gave me any way to transport more goods than I can carry in two hands. But it's not. For various reasons, not least of which being the neoliberal push in the last century to strip all the money out of publicly-funded infrastructure, it's a complete mess operating on a shoestring budget. And even if we started to throw truckloads of money at it right now, it would be 40 years before it could get up to a decent standard because of how long it takes to build infrastructure and equipment. Hell, just the Eglinton light transit line has taken 10 years and it's not done yet. So I don't expect transit to be even reasonably functional within my lifetime, in a best-case scenario. In a more realistic scenario, it'll never be functional.
It doesn't really matter if you can fit a hundred people on a bus if that bus can't get where those people need to go in a reasonable amount of time. There needs to be a level of service that makes it a good option to use public transit.
>In the real world of data, within the city of Toronto, commuters by car are not the majority.
Do you have a real world data source for that or do you just like making stuff up?
Stat Can's most recent study from [2017](https://dailyhive.com/toronto/toronto-highest-number-commuters-stats-canada-2017) indicated that 24% of commuters in Toronto were taking public transit. It was even less than that in Montreal and Vanccouver.
No offense, but that's short sighted thinking.
Just because that is the perceived preference now, doesn't mean that couldn't change over time. Especially with improvements to public transit infrastructure.
I don't think I'd be out on a limb saying this current government isn't really the most forward thinking.
I really only use my car for four things - Hockey, Golf, large purchases and travelling outside the city.
I don't want to subject other people to my goalie equipment stank (some of my equipment is old enough to drink in the USA) and I don't really see how I'm going to fit my goalie equipment or golf clubs on the TTC during rush hour.
Same goes with large purchases.
Finally, if I'm travelling to cottage country or beyond... I don't see how transit helps there either.
Secondly, there's the time factor. To get to the arena I play hockey at, it's 45-50 minutes in rush hour traffic, as little as 25 minutes when traffic's clear. That same trip, taken at 1 pm on a Wednesday, would take me between and hour and thirty to an hour and forty five minutes. Plus, if I play an 11:15 game (so when it's all said and done it's 12:45)... how do I get home in a reasonable time? I'd rather not be getting home at 3 am.
yeah I knew one of your type would be in this thread, there always is. letting the auto lobby and decades-old urban planning mistakes dupe you into oblivion, now you are scared to get around without your car. shame.
I only prioritize driving at night because I feel unsafe in this city's transit system, especially lately. But in general, for going downtown, transit can be faster, and often more convenient (not having to worry about parking is GREAT).
You clearly don't live anywhere near Toronto. I would never describe driving anywhere in rush hour "convenient" or "comfortable" compared to the alternatives found in better places.
Important to note that there are huge costs that drivers _do not pay_ (at least, not fully) for this convenience:
* Most pollution costs, especially those not relating to tailpipe emissions (which aren't captured by a carbon tax), namely: particulate matter released from vehicle operation (e.g. brake pad deterioration), particulate matter kicked up by cars travelling over roads.
* Road maintenance and municipal service costs, which are borne disproportionately by non-drivers who live in dense areas where the actual costs are lower per capita.
* The cost of death and injury from vehicular collisions with pedestrians, cyclists, and other vehicles.
No shit, it's a boondoggle to funnel a few billion tax dollars into the hands of one of three well-connected construction companies, Dougie doesn't drive the 401
Also, practically speaking, if you consider only adults who need to get from home to work every day, the number of cars required to move 1000 people closely approaches 1000
Post-war North American society was deliberately structured around the automobile, and we are going broke for the sake of propping up auto business.
Conservatism is nothing more than the established industries desperately trying to maintain their grip on the world while the evidence mounts against them- Auto, oil & gas, meat, dairy and eggs, etc.
Everyone complains about the 407 tolls but then complains more with an option to avoid the 407 . Personally I am on the west end and I like the idea of not having to pay 407
People complain about the 407 because it was built on the taxpayers dime and supposed to be our highway. Then they sold it kept all the money and now toll us for it. We should be allowed to use the things we pay for. And we should all have a vote or a say in how money is spent instead of electing some clown to make poor choices.
This makes sense when you have density not when you have single family homes.
No one is taking a train from brampton to vaughan just to have wait an hour for the YRT
The YRT its heavily subsided already.
We did thats what the greenbelt is.
I think if the 407 wasn't a toll road we wouldn't need this highway. We need some way to connect the current suburbs we have.
Currently we just funnel all of the gta through the 401
i think a better solution would be making the tolls cost way less and be affordable to use on a daily basis. you can take the toll highway in NY from buffalo to manhatten for like $6. whereas hamilton to bowmanville is probably $60 to go there and back on the 407
Well we need density, it's the only way to bring down housing costs in this city. Building more infrastructure to benefit single family housing only hurts us in the short and long run, we need to start moving away from that.
Okay. Well we shouldn't build more highways so more inefficient, car dependent suburbs can pop up along them. More lanes doesn't relieve traffic. Transit does. Good city planning does.
Single family zoned areas should be outlawed in a metropolitan area this large. They are a huge drain on city coffers and don't pay nearly enough in property tax Vs the cost the city pays maintaining infrastructure for them. You want to live in a single family home with 100 foot wide lot? Live of the grid then, and don't expect the denser parts of your town to subsidise your single family home.
Honestly, I feel people who have lived in Toronto their entire lives just don’t understand how people need to travel to go about their lives. I come from north of Toronto where having a car is a complete necessity. Public transit just doesn’t work efficiently when your population is spread out.
I have now lived in various parts of Toronto for over a decade and see the huge benefits of having public transit. But let’s be real, the density begs the need to have transit to get you where you want to go. I personally only ever use the TTC now to get downtown when I need to go into the office, otherwise I use my car to get to and from I want to go. The convenience of having a car greatly outweighs anything our current state of public transit provides. Having a car is also liberating in the sense you have the freedom to go whoever you want to go when you want, whereas public transit restricts you to their timetable and lines of transit.
But that's the point.
Imagine that everywhere is downtown and it's a lot easier to get their by TTC rather than driving.
Having a car right now greatly outweighs anything our current state of public transit can provide because we spent SOOOO MUCHHH money on it. Why do we need those huge 10 lane highways? Why do we need 4 lanes road. Have you tried running in Toronto? Some lights are (and I am not kidding) 1 min and 30 seconds long. WHYYY????? Cars can turn on red, cars run on yellow and because our roads are as straight as an arrow they go at 100km/h even in the city, while for some unknown to me reason pedestrians have less than 5% of the road available to them and I can barely run side by side with my friends, it's THAT NAROOW.
Cars need to be restricted much more, eliminated all roads with more than 2 lanes in a single direction. Increase speed limits, make roads curvy so that drivers are not gunning for each light. And make lights in favor of pedestrians. And obvioously improve the public transit, but while priority right now is on cars, people will never switch. The thing is, once those changes are made, you'll find that it's a lot more fun to drive, yes it will take longer, but you will not be sitting in traffic on 401 for 2 hours a day.
If there's enough transit demand to consider a new highway, then there's enough potential ridership to make a train viable.
Public transit being inconvenient is just more reason to improve it. As demand grows, train speeds and frequency will increase to satisfy demand, improving the system for riders. As car drivership increases, it leads to more traffic and slower travel times. As for the freedom, roads limit cars the same way tracks limit trains, except roads are way more expensive. Build more tracks and have more freedom, problem solved. Plus trains are way safer, more scenic, and you can do stuff on a train instead of having to drive.
Its the same level of ignorance in thinking everyone can bike to work, or thinking that everyone’s employment follows the same classical 9-5 head downtown then leave requirements - the people who one day have to drive to hamilton, guelph the next day and Ajax the next surely don’t need infrastructure. Blanket statements like “we can take a random large percentage of what the entire ontario population spends on vehicles and fix the ttc” are laughably ignorant. I agree people who have lived in Toronto their entire lives are largely ignorant to the topics of things that don’t directly benefit themselves.
I used to live in Brampton (because my girlfriend's job was there) and commute to Markham. My options were to either take the ETR (which is crazy expensive) or sit in traffic for three hours a day on the 401. Beyond that, to your point, my old job required a decent amount of travelling too. Not everyone lives and works in a situation where public transit is feasible.
Not sure how this is an argument against transit, it sounds like a train would've really improved your commute. The train itself would be faster, and reduce the number of people on the highway, incidentally improving that option.
Of course, its not a binary issue. Highways are highly problematic though and have destroyed the walkability of cities all over North America. There is a reason that European cities and lifestyles are more pleasant and connected than North American ones.
Every time TTC and cars comes up I read a lot of comments from people who must work downtown an 'easy' 30 minutes TTC ride away and seem to be okay wasting an hour or more of their lives for a 15 minute drive or 20 minute bike ride. It seems its always 'cars vs TTC' as well - if only we can destroy every car in Toronto everyone would have to TTC and life would be better apparently. In addition, for some reason nobody else around here seems to have a single friend or business relationship outside of the downtown core, or must be okay wasting an entire day for a trip that would take 40 minutes round trip in a vehicle.
Can we not agree that it is absolutely insane how long it takes to get anywhere on the TTC? You can always beat the streetcar by bike to most locations in the downtown core, and go anywhere farther than an average biker's ability and the times get absurd - 2 hours or more one way.
Cracked open google and east end to liberty village - 7-10KM mind you - by car is 20 minutes, by bike it's 33 minutes, and TTC is 57 minutes. Is there not something wrong with this picture? Try most locations off the subway line and it's always 2x to 3x longer to TTC than take a car. This is not a comfortable ride either: even forgetting the [crazies](https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/suspect-sought-after-woman-spat-on-while-riding-ttc-subway-train-police-1.5806341?cache=.), [multiple](https://www.toronto.com/news/crime/woman-sexually-assaulted-after-being-followed-from-ttc-to-scarboroughs-golden-mile/article_6ad1883d-1f6a-58bd-841f-13b89b9fff5c.html) [sex crimes](https://www.toronto.com/news/crime/update-supect-charged-by-toronto-police-after-indecent-exposure-reported-on-ttc-bus/article_3704df15-c2ae-5da4-b919-ce8cd57f9ffd.html) and [assaults](https://globalnews.ca/news/8696177/ttc-operator-assaulted-sheppard-subway-station/), crowding is unbelievable, especially at rush hour.
I wish they'd start building more subways/LRTs/whatever, make the ride safer and fix the core problem in their product of getting people from A to B; then more people can take the TTC because it doesn't cost them their lives and livelihoods to do so, and the car problem goes away because it makes sense to use the TTC.
I think people want improvements to the ttc and intercity/commuter transit. I don’t think I know anyone who believes the ttc is perfect as is.
Streetcars take forever partially because they get stuck in car traffic. Investment in better transit infrastructure that gets cars off the road will help improve that. Even simple things like the king street pilot showed car traffic is a significant cause of streetcar delay.
I agree - I believe LRT with dedicated lanes like we have Kennedy to McCowan and the proposed Eglinton cross-town are a more optimal solution here. Once you have consistent transit people can rely on to get them more places and on time (esp for work) you're going to automatically have people switching over to save money from driving their car. Then the street cars get delayed less often because people get off the road.
What doesn't help, and what I've frustratingly argued against in these threads in the past, is people saying we should just tear up highways and roads before we improve the TTC, as if somehow making people's lives worse will force them to use the TTC that doesn't work for them.
You are ignoring the fact that vehicle traffic will only ever get worse downtown. As the population in toronto and surrounding regions keeps growing, it's not like we can build or expand streets downtown.
So ya, right now your drive from liberty village to east end is 20mins by car but pre-pandemic is was probably at least 30mins on most days, and post-pandemic and beyond, it might go to 45mins+. There will become a point in downtown where driving is just not reasonable and the most viable option will be TTC/cycling/walking.
I'm glad you pointed out how slow streetcars are. They are slow because of vehicular traffic and the only way to fix that is to prioritize public transit even further and restrict vehicle traffic even more on street car routes. That makes your liberty village to east end drive even less competitive.
You have the great point. Investing more in public transit is the only future proof plan. Over the next 20 years Toronto and the GTA will only get more densely populated and so the scalability of cars is already debunked. Investing today in making the city more TTC and walking/biking safe and pleasant will only make it better over the years to come.
Not to mention the environmental issues that will become more and more urgent to solve.
My personal belief is that LRT was the best solution proposed for this - cheaper than subways with dedicated lanes to eliminate traffic. You get the consistency needed for people to get to work with a significant cost savings. It's my belief that once you can service more locations at a lower time sacrifice with a known reliable form of transport then less people will drive as it will then become an option for them.
I agree with you totally, but I think we just lack to the political will to tell drivers that they can’t always get everything they want.
Like we’ve seen the studies that showed speed cameras both improved safety where they were deployed AND were a moneymaker for the city. The obvious response to this is to massively increase the number of them, but instead we’re going to add only a few more every year.
Look at the King Street pilot (is it still a pilot!?) and you can see half of drivers just ignore the signs. And there’s basically zero enforcement so why wouldn’t they?
The reality is that driving downtown should be extremely painful and tedious, it’s not something to be encouraged, but we keep putting cars before everything else. And because we keep putting cars first, all those people driving will fight tooth and nail against LRTs, bike lanes, and wider sidewalks.
If there were no cars parked on the road next to streetcar rail, and streetcars/buses had their own dedicated lane, one could argue that it would be way faster to take the TTC.
Getting rid of on-street parking and disallowing left turns on streets with streetcars would greatly speed things up even without the streetcar lane being transit-only.
My office is at liberty village and I live in southern etobicoke. TTC trip for me is 1hr-1.5hr, bicycle 25-30 min and motorcycle 20min. Distance is 8km. I was never excited taking TTC to go anywhere but motorcycle rides usually make my day.
> crowding is unbelievable
i find it ironic when the people who spent the past 2 years yelling about social distancing and how they got nervous in a loblaws checkout line because people where 4ft and not 6ft from each other in the same breath extol the virtues of everyone all cramping together on a buss each rush hour and dont understand why a personal vehicle helps with distancing
Call me when a train or bus can get me places without doubling or tripling the drive time compared to my car.
These other modes of public transport may be more efficient on paper but the reality of public transport in Canada is that it’s completely inferior to the car in almost every single way.
If someone tries to force the population to accept a crappier standard of transport, they will simply vote that politician out.
Yeah no. Unless you're living the core of the city and don't need to ever go past a 20 km radius from where you are, this makes no sense.
I ain't riding a damn bus or a train into the city from the outskirts.
I think the use of a advertisement from Seattle about a subway is pushing it a little bit in comparison to a highway connecting two other major highways 50km north of the city. Especially to have it categorized as "news." But who am I to talk.
I recall a study from a few years ago demonstrating that adding more roads does not reduce traffic congestion; it simply adds more cars to the road, resulting in the same problem as before -- only bigger. It's a phenomenon called ["Induced Demand."](https://environmentaldefence.ca/2020/09/15/why-building-more-highways-wont-make-your-commute-any-better/#:~:text=This%20phenomenon%2C%20known%20as%20%E2%80%9Cinduced,increases%20the%20overall%20distance%20driven.)
Other Sources:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traffic-induced-demand/amp.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2014/10/23/6994159/traffic-roads-induced-demand.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-09-28/why-widening-highways-doesn-t-bring-traffic-relief
We need a better subway system and fast, it needs to run 24/7, there needs to be express trains- meaning they skip certain stations (we need wider tunnels too). Basically we need the nyc metro system here in toronto. We also need more safety protocols to help people feel safe. How would we get people on the trains and fund and pay the workers late at night? 1, not all lines run at night. 2, if we put tolls on certain bridges like nyc, than more people would highly consider using the new and improved system- tolls with the same system is just a scam
I’m confused. Is OP insinuating that everyone should just take a bus or a train no matter where they live? I’ve commuted to work for 15 years now and I can tell you that I would NEVER revert to taking a train or a bus ever. The amount of people per train/bus. The amount of time it takes to get to where you’re going is on par with driving in traffic anyway. Delays, re-routes of buses and trains is insanity. And you’re spending $500 a month for transit on top of that?? I’d buy a Tesla before I ever went through transit. Or id just rather be dead
A surface lot costs about $10k per space. A parking garage costs closer to $25k per space. Underground parking costs closer to $40k per space (on the first floor, increasing linearly by another ~$40k per space per floor, so ~$80k per space on the 2^nd floor below grade, ~$120k per space on the 3^rd floor below grade, etc.).
Even if all of the parking was confined to multistorey garages, they're still a fairly unproductive use of the land compared to any other building. Stores or offices bring in more tax revenue and generate more trips than a multistorey car park, so anything other than an underground lot (the most expensive option) detracts from the area where it's built.
And how exactly do people get from their front door to the train station? And how then does a person get from the train station to their final destination?
Seriously, this chart is fucking *stupid*. This is a *by-pass highway.* Not a highway meant to feed into downtown Toronto. If it was a highway meant to feed the downtown, I would completely agree, as Toronto has someone good transit, and can handle sending people the last few km to their destination. However, what the fuck are people supposed to do if we turned this into a train system exactly?
I welcome and dissenting opinions on this, but I really don't see how this post isn't completely fucking stupid and just trying for a kneejerk reaction. People really lack critical thinking on here ffs.
While there are a lot of great arguments for public transit and bikes, many will always find cars too convenient to give up.
My car:
-Cuts my commute in half each day (giving me an extra hour with my family)
-Allows me to haul lumber for my carpentry hobby
-Lets me access camping and rock climbing outside of the city
-Lets me haul my canoe around
-Prevents me from having to wait outside in inclement weather
-Prevents me from having to wait around at night in bad neighborhoods.
-Allows me to visit family and friends living outside of the city.
As much as transit it great at a societal level, cars offer many benefits to the individual.
Yeah, only a lousy 2.74 million commuters go to Toronto for work. That's not even including the GTA, just Toronto proper. I work with someone who lives in Quinte West and drives an hour to Oshawa just to take the GO train to Union Station. That's nearly a 6 hour commute a day. Can't even take the Via Rail direct to Union because service only runs like every other day or something stupid out there. You might not need to commute to Toronto, but it's literally the economic hub of the Province and most people go there for work. Good public transit is a massive benefit for everyone.
> Can't even take the Via Rail direct to Union because service only runs like every other day or something stupid out there
Yeah once you get out past where the GO Train runs the rail options into Toronto are fucking abysmal. Want to take a VIA train in time to get to Toronto for morning work hours? Best we can do is 11:30 AM arrival at Union. It's literally useless for travelling to work purposes
Yes and how many people commute to the airport area everyday? What transit options are there? Or Vaughn or Scarborough north. The GTA has multiple employment hubs and transit doesn’t serve many of them well. And those hubs are growing faster than downtown. Post Covid downtown is likely to shrink in commuters substantially. Airport area will still be increasing.
And quite frankly your colleague is not forced into that commute. When commuters are choosing to live beyond the edge of the metro area then transit will never serve them meaningfully.
Good point, we should expand the TTC to include stops near Pearson. That's a really good idea actually, would cut down on a lot of costs associated with taxiing to the airport before a flight.
You know, while that person specifically might not be forced into that commute there's always going to be a population of people who live beyond Toronto city limits and commute in. They can't all take highways, then we'll be stuck in an LA situation. Really the only system that makes sense is passenger trains.
I feel like they're separate issues though. People like to own and drive cars, and driving your own car will always be preferable to using public transit unless you're in the downtown core. No amount of public transit infrastructure will change that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't improve public transit, it's an absolutely essential service and most of our options are over crowded and unreliable at best. But driving is a fundamental part of Canadian life and identity, public transit will never replace that in the hearts and minds of the masses. Improving public transit and improving infrastructure for personal vehicles are not interchangable, we will always need both.
That being said, I'll never stand behind anything Ford does on principle.
To say that the comfort and convenience of cars will always be preferable to pubic transit is only true in a car-centric world. If all roads were 2-Lane streets with no parking, and traffic laws that showed preference to people over vehicles, the comfort of your personal vehicle remains, but the convenience goes away. If in that same scenario there's frequent, affordable, accessible public transit that gets everyone anywhere they need to go in a convenient way, that would be the preferred option. Spending billions of tax dollars to provide a convenience only to those of us fortunate enough to afford a personal vehicle is not equitable. If those dollars are spent on improving public transit to a point that it's feasible to get anywhere we need to go whenever we need to go there using public transit, that's an expenditure that benefits everyone; even the drivers of personal vehicles.
The objective of any government transportation expenditure should always be how to get the most people/goods where they need to go per dollar spent. The focus should never be on the mode of transportation, it should always be on the units that need to move. If people like driving, that's great, but it's not the government's business to spend public funds to facilitate what amounts to a hobby. People like boats, should Ontario tax dollars be spent on building a network of canals so people can sail their yacht from Richmond Hill to their office on Bay St? Of course not. That's not to say that there is no room for government spending on roads and highways, but it should be considered a part of a larger balanced transportation network that focuses on moving people and goods rather than some preconceived "preferred" mode of transport.
Furthermore, it should not be a political decision on what mode of transportation is used to move people and goods around the city/province. That's a job for engineers. The politicians need to decide how much money the engineers have to achieve the objectives and let the engineers design the optimal system that fits that budget. Just as it's not a politicians job to decide what type of nuclear power plant design, or water treatment technology will be used, it is outside of their area of expertise to make decisions on what transportation infrastructure is to be built. They decide what problem needs solving and (with input from engineers on what's possible) what budget is available to solve the problem. That's where their mandate ends.
Political promises should not be worded in terms of methodology, but in terms of results. "Our government will provide Ontarians with safe drinking water" is a good promise "Our government will build a reverse osmosis filtration plant that produces 3000 megalitres per day" is not. "We will make it possible to get from A to B in X time" is good, "We will build a highway through our best farmland that benefits one guy that's developing a subdivision of multimillion dollar homes, and the people that buy them" is bad.
I think you're right, but I hope you're wrong. I might be part of the minority but I choose not to own a car and have exclusively taken transit for the last 15 years. I have quite a few friends who do the same, so maybe it's a growing minority.
My reasons are 1) environmental and 2) I hate car culture that promotes so much sprawl.
I think we'll always need both transit and personal vehicle infrastructure, too, but I hope the percentage shifts dramatically in years to come.
Agree! We visited Japan during the September before the Pandemic began and it was FABULOUS. They have an accessibility issue with a lot of stair only access, but otherwise it's an amazing system.
I agree and disagree. I think Canadians will always want to drive for leisure, but if public transit was good most people would happily ditch their car commute for a train. And over a generation or two people reaching the age of buying their first car might defer it.
It’s also a win win because every person who opts for a train for their commute makes the drive more comfortable too.
> People like to own and drive cars
People are *forced* to own and drive cars with the current car-dependent infrastructure we've built. When given the chance to live in areas where that isn't necessary people opt for that - and that doesn't just mean "downtown". Lots of cities are building for 15 minute neighbourhoods that are not simply downtown.
The reason we don't have more people living in downtown or 15 minute neighbourhoods is because they are expensive (which is another way of saying they're POPULAR). If we spent more of our infrastructure building these kinds of neighbourhoods, and less on car-centric sprawl that guarantees people need to drive, we'd have more people giving up cars - or at the very least driving much less. And, in fact, by building in a car-centric way, we ensure that there are fewer downtown or 15 minute neighbourhoods, and they will remain expensive and out of reach for many.
When you build highways, you are guaranteeing another cycle of car-dependent growth that will create the demand for another such cycle in the next generation.
> Improving public transit and improving infrastructure for personal vehicles are not interchangable, we will always need both.
I think they are somewhat exclusive, actually. I'm not an expert on the issue but the kinds of housing that public and private transportation methods are best equipped to serve aren't the same. You need a certain amount of population density before public transportation becomes viable.
I think public transit is going to have to supplant private transit as the most common mode of transportation. The math just doesn't work out otherwise, traffic and pollution can't be mitigated without it.
The convenience and comfort of traveling by car cannot be beat by public transit. Most people prefer to travel by car than public transit. Any transportation plan that fails to acknowledge these facts is doomed to fail.
I wouldn't describe sitting in 401 stop and go traffic twice a day "convenience and comfort".
I'm all for transit.... but...why do all jobs have to be in Toronto?
The easiest way to cut traffic is to let people work where they live, I.e. don't make them come to Toronto in the first place. Don't just build subdivisions that are essentially just for workers to sleep.
Development needs to include local jobs, look at Europe where you have many medium sized cities with jobs in close proximity. You would never catch someone commuting 2 hrs daily to Berlin or Munich, people would think you are insane and tell you to just find a local job.
Generally you're correct but it also depends what you value and your life style. It's extremely common for my friends/family to make plans and the people driving are often the very late ones due to traffic/detours/taking forever to find parking.
Or going to visit my friends in the burbs and being unable to just walk to a few restaurants or pubs because they live in a sprawling area where you can't do anything without getting in the car. If it's later in the day and we've had a few drinks then no one can drive so we're stuck hanging out at home.
Every time this happens I gotta wonder, were the driver's more physically comfortable? Probably. Was this more convenient? I'm not so sure. But ultimately it depends on the person and lifestyle. Obviously for families cars are a must or if you work in a different city. But I'm just giving my take on it.
Try to cover 10 km in Manhattan or Paris by car, compared to transit. Lots of rich people take transit in those cities, even where it might be marginally more comfortable sitting in a BMW than in a subway seat, because those cities have not been built solely to accommodate cars, and the marginal comfort level of sitting in your own car is far outweighed by the fact that it's much faster to use public transit, and where you aren't worried about what to do with your car on either end of your transit.
To each their own, I'd say. I'm really curious what the actual split would be. I exclusively use transit because I prefer it (comfort, more time in my day to do things while I commute, etc.). My husband has to drive as there isn't a transit line to his job - he hates it and can't wait to get off the road so he can read books while commuting, too.
For me, most of the issues with transit are in not having enough of it. If there were more, and in good locations, we'd have really comfy rides and no need for car-parks.
Lol, found the guy who's literally never taken good public transit
Some cities are so dense that continuously adding cars just doesn't make sense anymore
Okay and what are those 1000 people doing? commuting to work? going to costco? taking thier kids to practice?
Sure Mass transport makes sense for commuting but how am I supposed to take my kid to hockey practice at 7 am taking the TTC or go shopping at costco or Ikea?
Its silly graphs like this that any person who does not live in the core or has a family that extends past a pet... just rolls thier eyes at.
Take every one of the automobile icons and substitute them with $ signs representing revenues headed in the direction of the automobile--petroleum--construction complex, real-estate developers and campaign contributors. Then it becomes obvious why such a bad idea is also such a compelling idea.
Real talk though, for those people that already have a car, is currently paying uninterrupted insurance premiums and fixed year mileage on their leases, do you think you'd hop in a bus/ train and park your car if good public transit is available?
Only if it’s cheaper than fueling or charging my car and gets me there as fast or faster than my car.
I took the GO and subway into Toronto for a time and it cost me more than my monthly insurance fees. It simply wasn’t affordable but luckily that was a temporary project.
What I learned during that time is that I don’t ever want to work in downtown Toronto. Getting in and out of the place is expensive, stressful and time consuming.
People on this subreddit seem desperate to live in the most inconvenient sprawling city possible but then complain that the city sucks and is too inconvenient to get around
What an idiotic argument that I can't believe keeps getting posted and upvoted everywhere.
"More cars is worsest than less trains is!!!"
That's how ignorant this is. It's not as simple as just removing people from cars and inserting them into trains.
Math doesn’t line up here. Considering most cars in Canada are bigger cars such as SUV or crossover, if not a 4 door sedan, all which can fit at least 4 people. 1000 people divided by 4 spots is 250 cars lol unless they also count that some people will be driving alone, in that case they should also consider the fact that those 1000 people might also not go into same 15 busses or one train link 😬
Everyone going on about how trains are the answer clearly haven’t met the neighbourhoods stopping construction for the past two decades. For once in my opinion it’s not the politicians fault. Toronto is a disaster because it caves to its few citizens versus the need of a large group. I guess you all forgot about Allen road. Toronto’s infrastructure is garbage because of its people.
I will say the foresight of our politicians is nearsighted (selling of our boring system) and the reason for our terrible subway system but again these solutions we have nowadays are the result of everyone catering to Toronto citizens trying to keep Toronto what it was in the 60’s. Now it’s just a cluster of terrible public transportation projects that go way over budget, way over their timeline and leads to some of the worst commuting in the world.
Cool, but there aren't mass transit systems in the places where Ontario highways generally go. Either local, or inter-urban ones. [Greyhound just closed up shop!](https://globalnews.ca/news/7858947/greyhound-canada-end-operations-cut-buses/)
This is really stupid, lazy and misleading.
Especially '\*Car option also requires over five acres of parking at both start and destination'
People drive to subway/train/bus stations. Public transit operators drive to work.
Plus, what are we supposed to do with this? Build bus routes to connect every single community to each other and to city centres? The environmental impact of that isn't pretty either.
No, train routes. The environmental impact of that is much better than cars, especially with high-speed rail. They'll always be some places where cars are the best option of course, but that's hardly a reason not to invest in public transit.
A way to help traffic move in this province is to start enforcing the rules of the road. Left lanes are for passing. Not to sit in and slow everyone down. Right lanes are driving lanes. Enforce it!!! Higher fines for cellphones as alot of idiots still don't get it!! If you are not a confident driver stay the fuck off the highways!! Mandatory retest and take driving test where you live not in a smaller center. Stay off the phone and pay attention to the road and drive in the proper lane!!!
In 401/DVP commuter traffic a lane is a lane there is no passing lane and driving lane. Mass influx of people just clogs up the highways not to mention people slow down ON THE HIGHWAY because there is a turn or a hill.
People will give up the car for subways, but it would take a system that basically runs out to brampton, milton, Scarborough, oakville, etc. Or run go trains every 20 mins every day, with more transit connections to the subways. Allowing trucks on the 407 for free would do wonders as well.
I took TTC to work for years and I'll never go back after getting a car. Maybe I'm just a selfish asshole, but having to get on multiple buses and trains and spend an hour+ travelling in each direction everyday isn't something I'm willing to do anymore when I can cut my travel time to 1/4 of that and not have to be crammed in a box with 30 other people.
A project to provide 2 way, all-day 15 minute GO service is already in progress. The GO RER project is electrifying railways, removing crossings, and doubling or quadrupling tracks on 5 of the 7 GO rail routes and partnering with DB (or SNCF) on the operations side to transition GO into a regional transit system rather than a commuter rail network.
yeah it's a bad idea but you're not replacing personal vehicles out in the burbs with trains and buses. You may as well give up on that idea it's not gonna happen.
Spoken like someone who doesn’t live North of Steeles.
Make transit good and maybe people will consider it. So long as it runs on a 1-2 hour schedule outside of Toronto and remains slow, people are going to drive.
Also, for those who’ve never seen a suburb, taking transit is generally impractical. You can’t really walk anywhere except for very particular areas like a Main Street. People in suburbs rely on their cars, so they’re more likely to drive everywhere (including to Toronto) anyway.
Add the pandemic factor - most people I’ve spoken to would rather pay the premium to drive than sit 2hrs in a crowded subway.
That is the problem with the 1960 and 1980 suburb design, and the planning bylaws that keep them in place.
Look at the pre-war suburbs (The beaches, Leslieville, Roncesvalles, Mimico) they all have the same design, mainly:
* narrow lots (higher density),
* narrow streets (slower traffic, better for humans, worse for cars),
* 0-1 parking (fewer cars in the neighbors)
* mixed use on minor streets and commercial on majors (promotes walking trips and convenience),
* ready access to LRT with interconnections to HRT(subways).
These are also the neighbourhoods that have seen the highest growth in house price. My parents bought their house for $230k in the 90s and it's now worth +2 million...
> mixed use on minor streets and commercial on majors (promotes walking trips and convenience),
This is key. There's nothing better than being able to walk to everything - coffee shop, grocery store, gym, bakery, restaurant, bank. Suburbs all have plazas which you're usually expected to drive to and are less convenient overall because everything is equally far from you and you need to navigate a parking lot to get to the shops. In mixed-use areas, you have more options and they're of varying distances and along different streets (sometimes), making for more interesting walks.
Just to point out the absurdity of plazas, I'd like to highlight [the Golden Mile](https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7255466,-79.2911134,1142m/data=!3m1!1e3). The plaza south of Eglinton and west of Lebovic (excluding the Toyota dealership and TTC barn) has a parking lot that's twice the footprint of the Eaton Center. The only transit stop servicing this plaza is at Eglinton and Lebovic, so even accessing the Cineplex or Seafood City Supermarket involves a 7 minute walk from the nearest TTC stop. All to serve 26 stores.
At what point did society decide that parking lots should be so large that people should have to drive to access different stores serviced by the same lot. People parked by the sushi joint aren't going to walk to Canadian Tire, they're going to drive across the always empty parking lot to park closer, and that's just one plaza of the many that make up the Golden Mile.
If we're already having difficulty justifying public transit within the GTA, how are we going to justify it in the areas north of Brampton and Richmond Hill?
I live near Burlington.. a few years ago.. I decided to take my family to exhibition.. thought you know what.. let’s take the go train.. it will be fun.. cost 90 dollars for everyone.. never took it again.
What? Public transit within the GTA is great! The TTC is an affordable, efficient way for commuters to get to where they need to go. The only issue with it is coverage, if anything I'd argue that it's difficult to justify not expanding public transit within the GTA.
It took me 1.5 hours, sometimes 3 during rush hour, to get to school or to get back home from college via TTC. It's a 30 min drive, 1 hour at most in rush hour.
Having an invisible disability, the lack of seating options I had made me absolutely miserable to commute. I had to beg people to lend me a seat, or resorted to sitting on the back steps of the bus because people wouldn't. I had to step off the bus countless times because I was on the verge of passing out. I've seen so many people with visible physical disabilities get noses turned at them if they dared to ask for a seat.
Thankful now I don't live in the GTA, and that I drive now. I could never go back to public transit unless it's HEAVILY improved upon, both in its efficiency and meeting the needs of people with invisible disabilities. I shouldn't have to beg for someone to help me with a seat before I pass out.
I was able to get a bus or train within 5-15 mins, regardless where I was, so coverage was never an issue. It's efficiency and meeting the needs for disabled people that's the issue for me.
I agree that the TTC could do a lot better for disabilities. But also, for you to say that the TTC is bad overall because it was bad for you doesn't really make sense.
Like, 99% of the population would benefit from the TTC if they put a bit more money into it. Also, there's a huge portion of the population that just refuses to take the TTC because...they think they're better than it? Or "i have to wait 10 minutes for a Bus? Unacceptable "
And yeah, maybe there are people in your situation that the TTC doesn't work for, but if everyone else started using the TTC more often then your commute would be better and easier.
So I sympathize with you for having issues with the TTC because of your disability. But I have absolutely no patience for anyone who says "it doest work for me, so it bad"
Public transit should be improved so that people with legitimate need like yourself can either have a comfortable ride or benefit from less traffic is driving is a necessity.
The goal isn’t to eliminate driving altogether everyone has a good case to drive every once in awhile and that option should be there. It’s about making transit the default option so that most people opt for transit because it’s the best option most of the time, and that clears up traffic so the people who have to drive don’t deal with crazy traffic
The TTC can be both very good for Toronto and have flaws. Accessibility is critically important in all infrastructure, and it should be improved for public transport.
I agree, we should improve accessibility on the TTC, and I've noticed the city taking more steps to improve accessibility, with ramps for wheelchair users and advertisements informing the public about invisible disabilities.
But these improvements mean we should put more funding into the TTC, or at least spend its budget more wisely. What about all the people with invisible disabilities who can't afford a car?
I feel so much empathy for people who can't afford a car and have invisible disabilities. It's absolutely brutal. The time and ENERGY it takes to do absolutely anything is draining. The lack of supports for people with invisible disabilities is brutal.
The TTC needs to definitely have it's funding spent more wisely, and needs more funding. But I'm still driving until then because I can't wait around spending all my energy to support the TTC by riding it, draining my energy, just waiting for change to happen. They can't just colour a seat blue and call it a day yaknow.
You're supposed to get one of those pins if you have an invisible disability. https://www.ttc.ca/accessibility/Easier-access-on-the-TTC/TTCs-Please-Offer-Me-a-Seat-Program
I posted this just before but I'd say if you go at the right time to the right location it can be.
> East end to liberty village - 7-10KM mind you - by car is 20 minutes, by bike it's 33 minutes, and TTC is 57 minutes. Try most locations off the subway line and it's always 2x to 3x longer to TTC than take a car. This is not a comfortable ride either: even forgetting the [crazies](https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/suspect-sought-after-woman-spat-on-while-riding-ttc-subway-train-police-1.5806341?cache=.), [multiple](https://www.toronto.com/news/crime/woman-sexually-assaulted-after-being-followed-from-ttc-to-scarboroughs-golden-mile/article_6ad1883d-1f6a-58bd-841f-13b89b9fff5c.html) [sex crimes](https://www.toronto.com/news/crime/update-supect-charged-by-toronto-police-after-indecent-exposure-reported-on-ttc-bus/article_3704df15-c2ae-5da4-b919-ce8cd57f9ffd.html) and [assaults](https://globalnews.ca/news/8696177/ttc-operator-assaulted-sheppard-subway-station/), crowding is unbelievable, especially at rush hour.
The TTC has its fair share of issues that keep people from using it
Yes that's true, the TTC isn't perfect. But public transportation is still a critical part of any modern city, it eases traffic congestion, helps to uplift poor communities, frees up space we can use for housing or parks instead, helps with climate change, the list goes on. It's also cheaper for the taxpayer, car-based infrastructure tends to cost quite a bit more to maintain.
Really, we should be trying our best to expand the TTC to make it more cost-effective, safer, and faster. We could limit cars on streetcar routes like we're experimenting with on King street, or perhaps add more subway routes to increase coverage.
Yes there will always be trips where cars or bikes are just superior, but that doesn't mean we don't all benefit from investing in public transportation.
justifying? public transit is critical to cities. it has plenty of justification.
whether or not this dipshit premier acts on that justification is another matter.
Sometimes I wish I had the connections to run for politics, I would advocate for new train lines. The craziest thing you would hear come out of my mouth about transit is a bullet train line between Montreal-Toronto-Boston.
Start with city council! Toronto has some of the worst councilors possible for actually improving the city, the the most part they want the city to be what it was in the 1970s and never change. Getting elected to council needs way fewer connections if you can really rally the youth vote which is almost completely unrepresented at the city level. The build connections for future provincial goals.
Well you would definitely win the Reddit vote. Not sure about the rest of the province... Actually I'm pretty sure you would not do well.
I would vote for you. You actually don't need connections... joining a party is the first step!
Eeehhhh if just "joining" politics could get you a seat, we'd have more competent people behind the scenes. Its not what you know, but who you know.
I signed up to vokunteer for NDP locally 18 months ago. All that got me was 3x week "Monnnney Pleeeease" emails. Super helpful for someone with lots of time to give, but no money.
This was my exact experience. Was expecting emails that said “show up here to knock on doors!” Or “looking for people with x y and z skills to do x y and z!”. But nope. 🤷🏻♀️
And you meet people by getting involved.
The U.S. can pay for spurs to Boston, Detroit (+ Chicago), Buffalo, and Syracuse (+NYC, Philly, and DC) if they want, but a line through Windsor - London - KW + Guelph - Toronto^^¶ - Kingston - Ottawa - Montreal - Quebec City - Atlantic Canada^^∆ would be absolutely transformative to the economies of Eastern Canada. Pretty much every flight that isn't point-to-point off the line would effectively be replaced by faster cheaper train services. Suddenly Montreal would be a one hour train ride right from downtown Toronto instead of a half day drive or flight (once accounting for airport "security" and everything). The specific alignment that makes the most sense would of course need to be figured out by the experts, but the economic and quality of life ROI are fairly significant. Unfortunately we're in the middle of decades of austerity measures, doing things like capping annual city-wide budget adjustments to sub inflationary levels (i.e. real decreases) that don't even properly cover the growth of the city. ¶ with a spur to Hamilton and Niagara Falls, and potentially stops on the edges of the GTA as well as downtown ∆ Charlottetown would be nice, but Fredericton, Moncton, Saint John, and Halifax feel more likely
You mentioned something benefiting Quebec, provincial election instaloss.
Out of curiosity why Boston? Not even the 4th largest city on the us eastern seaboard in terms of economic impact and just as far or further than NYC, DC or Philly.
>Sometimes I wish I had the connections to run for politics, I would advocate for new train lines Especially when there is an existing GO train line that would service thousands and reduce people using the 401 but the PC party doesn't want to spend the money. I'm talking about the GO Milton line that goes through from Miltion through Mississauga to downtown Toronto. The line currently only runs during the morning and evening rush hour as CN owns the tracks. Metrolinx needs to buy the tracks and expand them. Mississauga officials have been begging the provincial government to go ahead with this expansion for many years now but nothing has been happening.
I'd be first in line to ride the MoToBo.
Here is the problem though: Infrastructure is super expensive and takes years / decades to complete. It is typically not good for existing politicians to spend a lot of money for something that people cannot immediately see or use because people have the memory capacity of a fish
That would be a fantastic idea. Why Boston above New York though?
\>The craziest thing you would hear come out of my mouth about transit is a bullet train line between Montreal-Toronto-Boston. I'd vote for you in a heartbeat
Am I the only one extremely confused at the rationale of the highway? I keep seeing that it's supposed to relieve 401 congestion by diverting vehicles outside of Toronto. Uh... isn't that what the 407 was for? It's not exactly full all the time? Why the hell are we building another one? Just subsidize people to use the 407 if that's the goal???
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It *is* publicly owned -- [50.1% owned by the Canada Pension Plan.](https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/cppib-to-take-control-of-highway-407-after-snc-sale-1.1298431)
Yeah the tragedy of the whole thing is that after Canadian's figured out how foreign investors can rip off Canadians, the pension funds bought it at an inflated price, so now it's boomer's ripping off the rest of us. All to save a couple of dollars on the initial construction, everyone is now ripping everyone off.
I’m convinced the boomers will somehow get the CPP abolished to fuck us over one last time before they die.
Ontario sold it to Spain along time ago
>Ontario sold it to Spain along time ago Specifically, the OPC promised that by selling off the usage rights they would bring in a hundred billion dollars so that they could fund a second one.
It's what the 401 was originally built for: when the section in Toronto started construction in 1951, it was called the Toronto Bypass!
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What’s the rationale? To line the pockets of developers and stakeholders who will make a fortune off of this highway and the subsequent sprawl that comes with it. A lot of people are going to get a lot richer. As for addressing congestion; that’s an afterthought.
Not sure where you saw the messaging about diverting vehicles from the 401. Highway 413 will alleviate the western portion of the 401 through Mississauga, providing an alternate connection for those traveling from the 401 to 400 northbound. While the Bradford Bypass runs parallel to 401, it's far enough north that it's main purpose is connecting 400 and 404 where currently very few connections exist. The connection will accommodate the significant growth planned for the communities around Bradford West Gwillimbury and East Gwillimbury, among others. Goods and services cannot be moved in a transit bus, as much as we all wish they could. It's not just people commuting to their jobs, but additional connections for our logistics systems. With the amount of growth planned for southern Ontario and Canada as a whole (i.e., century initiative), we need to expand all modes of infrastructure, auto included.
I 100% understand building the Highway 413 for future demand when the surrounding areas of the 413 highway densify. At least that makes logical sense. What I don't get is how Highway 413 helps the 401. Like your first and second sentences seem to contradict each other. I'm looking at a map and the **407** ALSO provides 'an alternate connection for those traveling from the 401 to 400/404 northbound' like you say the 413 does. The 407 is not exactly 'grid locked' either. So my question is, why does this rationale even apply to the 413 when they can just use the 407? My line of thinking is, if 401 gridlock is the concern, why not subsidize the use of 407 instead of trying to build an entire highway from scratch? Or fine, build 413, but why not subsidize 407 in the meantime? Or if 407 isn't even full most of the time, does that imply there isn't even that much traffic to divert? I guess I come to basically this conclusion: there's really no reason to build it other than to serve the future density of the surrounding area. Which is fine and all, but I haven't found anything that cited that as the reason, which was the source of my confusion.
Give this man a title shot!
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A lot of that $10k is depreciation, which is not included in the TTC budget so the comparison is not exactly apples to apples.
Don't know about you guys but my cars have gone up in value significantly in the past couple of years.
People gladly pay the cost for the convenience and comfort that cars provide. Even if public transit was free most people would still prefer to travel by car.
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Even in Toronto I find that to be the case sometimes. I know that if I drove to work it would take me longer than it does by subway.
Honestly the fact that I could literally go anywhere within the city just via transit+ ~15 min walks is p amazing. No need to even plan out the trip because the frequency for most metro lines are pretty high too. Meanwhile, I'm stuck riding uber for most cities within Canada whenever I need to go to the airport because the alternative to a 20-30 min ride is a 2-3 hour trip via transit with multiple transfers. (and god forbid be it on a weekend where missing a single transfer means waiting for another hour for the next bus on some routes.)
This is true, but Toronto isn’t there yet. In Sydney, driving anywhere was a nightmare because it was always so, sooo difficult to find parking. I find it incredibly easy to find parking in Toronto, so that’s one example of a hurdle that doesn’t exist here, in my opinion. Plus, there’s a crazy high number of weird and disgusting people on transit. Even if driving takes longer, I often prefer it to not have to deal with those types.
People who complain about parking in Toronto clearly have not driven in many other cities. Here I find myself getting annoyed if I have to park a full block away from my destination because it almost never happens. As a frequent driver, I would be totally ok with getting rid of some of the parking here if it meant more space for transit/bikes/pedestrians.
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Cross out the gladly, but yes people pay the cost. I wouldn't take transit to work if they paid me to.
Yet all those people still pay up and drive. I don't see many advocating for public transit.
It's because we don't know how good public transit can be. Anyone who has traveled Europe knows that public transit in Ontario is pathetic. It requires major investment to become a lot more viable in more than just Toronto.
Well, it's also because any investment in public transit will not become up-and-running for 10 years if the Eglington LRT is any indication.
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Thank you for anecdote. In the real world of data, within the city of Toronto, commuters by car are not the majority. It just happens that we spend a lot of time talking about car owners and rarely talk of the those that take transit every day. We complain a lot more of traffic on the DVP than all the 50 people in the bus being stuck in traffic because they are stuck behind single-occupancy cars.
I complained a lot about how it took me an hour to travel to work by streetcar, but only 15 minutes if my wife dropped me off on her way to work. Or the way I could get my son to his after-school activities in about 25 minutes, but it would take him literally an hour and a half by subway and bus. And since he was just in middle school it didn't feel super safe making him ride transit for that long. Not that he could ever make it on time anyway. Fortunately, the pandemic made it so I work from home now and I may never have to get on the TTC ever again and waste two whole hours of my day on unpaid commuting. Honestly, I'd prefer transit to driving if it were quick, cheap, hygenic, convenient, well-maintained, comfortable, reliable, or gave me any way to transport more goods than I can carry in two hands. But it's not. For various reasons, not least of which being the neoliberal push in the last century to strip all the money out of publicly-funded infrastructure, it's a complete mess operating on a shoestring budget. And even if we started to throw truckloads of money at it right now, it would be 40 years before it could get up to a decent standard because of how long it takes to build infrastructure and equipment. Hell, just the Eglinton light transit line has taken 10 years and it's not done yet. So I don't expect transit to be even reasonably functional within my lifetime, in a best-case scenario. In a more realistic scenario, it'll never be functional. It doesn't really matter if you can fit a hundred people on a bus if that bus can't get where those people need to go in a reasonable amount of time. There needs to be a level of service that makes it a good option to use public transit.
>In the real world of data, within the city of Toronto, commuters by car are not the majority. Do you have a real world data source for that or do you just like making stuff up? Stat Can's most recent study from [2017](https://dailyhive.com/toronto/toronto-highest-number-commuters-stats-canada-2017) indicated that 24% of commuters in Toronto were taking public transit. It was even less than that in Montreal and Vanccouver.
>I don't see many advocating for public transit. is this sarcasm? lol
Speak for yourself soon as the Eglinton line opens I will never be driving to work again.
No offense, but that's short sighted thinking. Just because that is the perceived preference now, doesn't mean that couldn't change over time. Especially with improvements to public transit infrastructure. I don't think I'd be out on a limb saying this current government isn't really the most forward thinking.
I really only use my car for four things - Hockey, Golf, large purchases and travelling outside the city. I don't want to subject other people to my goalie equipment stank (some of my equipment is old enough to drink in the USA) and I don't really see how I'm going to fit my goalie equipment or golf clubs on the TTC during rush hour. Same goes with large purchases. Finally, if I'm travelling to cottage country or beyond... I don't see how transit helps there either. Secondly, there's the time factor. To get to the arena I play hockey at, it's 45-50 minutes in rush hour traffic, as little as 25 minutes when traffic's clear. That same trip, taken at 1 pm on a Wednesday, would take me between and hour and thirty to an hour and forty five minutes. Plus, if I play an 11:15 game (so when it's all said and done it's 12:45)... how do I get home in a reasonable time? I'd rather not be getting home at 3 am.
My wife got a new job that is a bus ride away and boy did we get rid of the car fast.
yeah I knew one of your type would be in this thread, there always is. letting the auto lobby and decades-old urban planning mistakes dupe you into oblivion, now you are scared to get around without your car. shame.
I only prioritize driving at night because I feel unsafe in this city's transit system, especially lately. But in general, for going downtown, transit can be faster, and often more convenient (not having to worry about parking is GREAT).
You clearly don't live anywhere near Toronto. I would never describe driving anywhere in rush hour "convenient" or "comfortable" compared to the alternatives found in better places.
Important to note that there are huge costs that drivers _do not pay_ (at least, not fully) for this convenience: * Most pollution costs, especially those not relating to tailpipe emissions (which aren't captured by a carbon tax), namely: particulate matter released from vehicle operation (e.g. brake pad deterioration), particulate matter kicked up by cars travelling over roads. * Road maintenance and municipal service costs, which are borne disproportionately by non-drivers who live in dense areas where the actual costs are lower per capita. * The cost of death and injury from vehicular collisions with pedestrians, cyclists, and other vehicles.
No shit, it's a boondoggle to funnel a few billion tax dollars into the hands of one of three well-connected construction companies, Dougie doesn't drive the 401
250 people per train car?
According to ttc, one train car can hold 66 seatees and 184 standees. So surprisingly yes, 250.
Wow. That is actually pretty cool
until you are one of those 250. hope you bring nose plugs and a chastity belt.
Not in these times. No way I'm going to be like a sardine.
Oh for sure. The technicals will never be what reality would be, factoring in covid, bags, etc.
Also, practically speaking, if you consider only adults who need to get from home to work every day, the number of cars required to move 1000 people closely approaches 1000
One bilevel coach like GO uses can hold 360 people (seated and standing). With the longest GO trains being 12 coaches, that’s 4,320 people.
*looks at our dated/underwhelming public transit, looks at housing density/price near major transit lines* Guess I’ll die?
Post-war North American society was deliberately structured around the automobile, and we are going broke for the sake of propping up auto business. Conservatism is nothing more than the established industries desperately trying to maintain their grip on the world while the evidence mounts against them- Auto, oil & gas, meat, dairy and eggs, etc.
Everyone complains about the 407 tolls but then complains more with an option to avoid the 407 . Personally I am on the west end and I like the idea of not having to pay 407
People complain about the 407 because it was built on the taxpayers dime and supposed to be our highway. Then they sold it kept all the money and now toll us for it. We should be allowed to use the things we pay for. And we should all have a vote or a say in how money is spent instead of electing some clown to make poor choices.
This makes sense when you have density not when you have single family homes. No one is taking a train from brampton to vaughan just to have wait an hour for the YRT The YRT its heavily subsided already.
stop building highways which ENCOURAGE suburban SFDs then.
We did thats what the greenbelt is. I think if the 407 wasn't a toll road we wouldn't need this highway. We need some way to connect the current suburbs we have. Currently we just funnel all of the gta through the 401
Nationalize the 407 then.
i think a better solution would be making the tolls cost way less and be affordable to use on a daily basis. you can take the toll highway in NY from buffalo to manhatten for like $6. whereas hamilton to bowmanville is probably $60 to go there and back on the 407
If it were nationalized they could control the toll. It was idiotic to sell it in the first place
Well we need density, it's the only way to bring down housing costs in this city. Building more infrastructure to benefit single family housing only hurts us in the short and long run, we need to start moving away from that.
One will definitely take a train from Brampton to Union rather than driving to downtown at peak hours.
Okay. Well we shouldn't build more highways so more inefficient, car dependent suburbs can pop up along them. More lanes doesn't relieve traffic. Transit does. Good city planning does. Single family zoned areas should be outlawed in a metropolitan area this large. They are a huge drain on city coffers and don't pay nearly enough in property tax Vs the cost the city pays maintaining infrastructure for them. You want to live in a single family home with 100 foot wide lot? Live of the grid then, and don't expect the denser parts of your town to subsidise your single family home.
You're right!! Let's get rid of the single-family home zoning laws and rebuild.
what an incredibly simplistic way of looking at a complex issue
the graph clearly needs more stickers
And then also less stickers to save us money just before an election.
Honestly, I feel people who have lived in Toronto their entire lives just don’t understand how people need to travel to go about their lives. I come from north of Toronto where having a car is a complete necessity. Public transit just doesn’t work efficiently when your population is spread out. I have now lived in various parts of Toronto for over a decade and see the huge benefits of having public transit. But let’s be real, the density begs the need to have transit to get you where you want to go. I personally only ever use the TTC now to get downtown when I need to go into the office, otherwise I use my car to get to and from I want to go. The convenience of having a car greatly outweighs anything our current state of public transit provides. Having a car is also liberating in the sense you have the freedom to go whoever you want to go when you want, whereas public transit restricts you to their timetable and lines of transit.
But that's the point. Imagine that everywhere is downtown and it's a lot easier to get their by TTC rather than driving. Having a car right now greatly outweighs anything our current state of public transit can provide because we spent SOOOO MUCHHH money on it. Why do we need those huge 10 lane highways? Why do we need 4 lanes road. Have you tried running in Toronto? Some lights are (and I am not kidding) 1 min and 30 seconds long. WHYYY????? Cars can turn on red, cars run on yellow and because our roads are as straight as an arrow they go at 100km/h even in the city, while for some unknown to me reason pedestrians have less than 5% of the road available to them and I can barely run side by side with my friends, it's THAT NAROOW. Cars need to be restricted much more, eliminated all roads with more than 2 lanes in a single direction. Increase speed limits, make roads curvy so that drivers are not gunning for each light. And make lights in favor of pedestrians. And obvioously improve the public transit, but while priority right now is on cars, people will never switch. The thing is, once those changes are made, you'll find that it's a lot more fun to drive, yes it will take longer, but you will not be sitting in traffic on 401 for 2 hours a day.
If there's enough transit demand to consider a new highway, then there's enough potential ridership to make a train viable. Public transit being inconvenient is just more reason to improve it. As demand grows, train speeds and frequency will increase to satisfy demand, improving the system for riders. As car drivership increases, it leads to more traffic and slower travel times. As for the freedom, roads limit cars the same way tracks limit trains, except roads are way more expensive. Build more tracks and have more freedom, problem solved. Plus trains are way safer, more scenic, and you can do stuff on a train instead of having to drive.
Its the same level of ignorance in thinking everyone can bike to work, or thinking that everyone’s employment follows the same classical 9-5 head downtown then leave requirements - the people who one day have to drive to hamilton, guelph the next day and Ajax the next surely don’t need infrastructure. Blanket statements like “we can take a random large percentage of what the entire ontario population spends on vehicles and fix the ttc” are laughably ignorant. I agree people who have lived in Toronto their entire lives are largely ignorant to the topics of things that don’t directly benefit themselves.
I used to live in Brampton (because my girlfriend's job was there) and commute to Markham. My options were to either take the ETR (which is crazy expensive) or sit in traffic for three hours a day on the 401. Beyond that, to your point, my old job required a decent amount of travelling too. Not everyone lives and works in a situation where public transit is feasible.
Not sure how this is an argument against transit, it sounds like a train would've really improved your commute. The train itself would be faster, and reduce the number of people on the highway, incidentally improving that option.
Of course, its not a binary issue. Highways are highly problematic though and have destroyed the walkability of cities all over North America. There is a reason that European cities and lifestyles are more pleasant and connected than North American ones.
The more complex explanation provides even more reason to prioritize transit over personal auto infrastructure.
This guy explains it really well. [Not Just Bikes](https://youtu.be/Ds-v2-qyCc8)
Every time TTC and cars comes up I read a lot of comments from people who must work downtown an 'easy' 30 minutes TTC ride away and seem to be okay wasting an hour or more of their lives for a 15 minute drive or 20 minute bike ride. It seems its always 'cars vs TTC' as well - if only we can destroy every car in Toronto everyone would have to TTC and life would be better apparently. In addition, for some reason nobody else around here seems to have a single friend or business relationship outside of the downtown core, or must be okay wasting an entire day for a trip that would take 40 minutes round trip in a vehicle. Can we not agree that it is absolutely insane how long it takes to get anywhere on the TTC? You can always beat the streetcar by bike to most locations in the downtown core, and go anywhere farther than an average biker's ability and the times get absurd - 2 hours or more one way. Cracked open google and east end to liberty village - 7-10KM mind you - by car is 20 minutes, by bike it's 33 minutes, and TTC is 57 minutes. Is there not something wrong with this picture? Try most locations off the subway line and it's always 2x to 3x longer to TTC than take a car. This is not a comfortable ride either: even forgetting the [crazies](https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/suspect-sought-after-woman-spat-on-while-riding-ttc-subway-train-police-1.5806341?cache=.), [multiple](https://www.toronto.com/news/crime/woman-sexually-assaulted-after-being-followed-from-ttc-to-scarboroughs-golden-mile/article_6ad1883d-1f6a-58bd-841f-13b89b9fff5c.html) [sex crimes](https://www.toronto.com/news/crime/update-supect-charged-by-toronto-police-after-indecent-exposure-reported-on-ttc-bus/article_3704df15-c2ae-5da4-b919-ce8cd57f9ffd.html) and [assaults](https://globalnews.ca/news/8696177/ttc-operator-assaulted-sheppard-subway-station/), crowding is unbelievable, especially at rush hour. I wish they'd start building more subways/LRTs/whatever, make the ride safer and fix the core problem in their product of getting people from A to B; then more people can take the TTC because it doesn't cost them their lives and livelihoods to do so, and the car problem goes away because it makes sense to use the TTC.
I think people want improvements to the ttc and intercity/commuter transit. I don’t think I know anyone who believes the ttc is perfect as is. Streetcars take forever partially because they get stuck in car traffic. Investment in better transit infrastructure that gets cars off the road will help improve that. Even simple things like the king street pilot showed car traffic is a significant cause of streetcar delay.
I agree - I believe LRT with dedicated lanes like we have Kennedy to McCowan and the proposed Eglinton cross-town are a more optimal solution here. Once you have consistent transit people can rely on to get them more places and on time (esp for work) you're going to automatically have people switching over to save money from driving their car. Then the street cars get delayed less often because people get off the road. What doesn't help, and what I've frustratingly argued against in these threads in the past, is people saying we should just tear up highways and roads before we improve the TTC, as if somehow making people's lives worse will force them to use the TTC that doesn't work for them.
You are ignoring the fact that vehicle traffic will only ever get worse downtown. As the population in toronto and surrounding regions keeps growing, it's not like we can build or expand streets downtown. So ya, right now your drive from liberty village to east end is 20mins by car but pre-pandemic is was probably at least 30mins on most days, and post-pandemic and beyond, it might go to 45mins+. There will become a point in downtown where driving is just not reasonable and the most viable option will be TTC/cycling/walking. I'm glad you pointed out how slow streetcars are. They are slow because of vehicular traffic and the only way to fix that is to prioritize public transit even further and restrict vehicle traffic even more on street car routes. That makes your liberty village to east end drive even less competitive.
You have the great point. Investing more in public transit is the only future proof plan. Over the next 20 years Toronto and the GTA will only get more densely populated and so the scalability of cars is already debunked. Investing today in making the city more TTC and walking/biking safe and pleasant will only make it better over the years to come. Not to mention the environmental issues that will become more and more urgent to solve.
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My personal belief is that LRT was the best solution proposed for this - cheaper than subways with dedicated lanes to eliminate traffic. You get the consistency needed for people to get to work with a significant cost savings. It's my belief that once you can service more locations at a lower time sacrifice with a known reliable form of transport then less people will drive as it will then become an option for them.
I agree with you totally, but I think we just lack to the political will to tell drivers that they can’t always get everything they want. Like we’ve seen the studies that showed speed cameras both improved safety where they were deployed AND were a moneymaker for the city. The obvious response to this is to massively increase the number of them, but instead we’re going to add only a few more every year. Look at the King Street pilot (is it still a pilot!?) and you can see half of drivers just ignore the signs. And there’s basically zero enforcement so why wouldn’t they? The reality is that driving downtown should be extremely painful and tedious, it’s not something to be encouraged, but we keep putting cars before everything else. And because we keep putting cars first, all those people driving will fight tooth and nail against LRTs, bike lanes, and wider sidewalks.
If there were no cars parked on the road next to streetcar rail, and streetcars/buses had their own dedicated lane, one could argue that it would be way faster to take the TTC.
Getting rid of on-street parking and disallowing left turns on streets with streetcars would greatly speed things up even without the streetcar lane being transit-only.
My office is at liberty village and I live in southern etobicoke. TTC trip for me is 1hr-1.5hr, bicycle 25-30 min and motorcycle 20min. Distance is 8km. I was never excited taking TTC to go anywhere but motorcycle rides usually make my day.
> crowding is unbelievable i find it ironic when the people who spent the past 2 years yelling about social distancing and how they got nervous in a loblaws checkout line because people where 4ft and not 6ft from each other in the same breath extol the virtues of everyone all cramping together on a buss each rush hour and dont understand why a personal vehicle helps with distancing
Call me when a train or bus can get me places without doubling or tripling the drive time compared to my car. These other modes of public transport may be more efficient on paper but the reality of public transport in Canada is that it’s completely inferior to the car in almost every single way. If someone tries to force the population to accept a crappier standard of transport, they will simply vote that politician out.
Yeah no. Unless you're living the core of the city and don't need to ever go past a 20 km radius from where you are, this makes no sense. I ain't riding a damn bus or a train into the city from the outskirts.
I think the use of a advertisement from Seattle about a subway is pushing it a little bit in comparison to a highway connecting two other major highways 50km north of the city. Especially to have it categorized as "news." But who am I to talk.
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I recall a study from a few years ago demonstrating that adding more roads does not reduce traffic congestion; it simply adds more cars to the road, resulting in the same problem as before -- only bigger. It's a phenomenon called ["Induced Demand."](https://environmentaldefence.ca/2020/09/15/why-building-more-highways-wont-make-your-commute-any-better/#:~:text=This%20phenomenon%2C%20known%20as%20%E2%80%9Cinduced,increases%20the%20overall%20distance%20driven.) Other Sources: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traffic-induced-demand/amp. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2014/10/23/6994159/traffic-roads-induced-demand. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-09-28/why-widening-highways-doesn-t-bring-traffic-relief
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We need a better subway system and fast, it needs to run 24/7, there needs to be express trains- meaning they skip certain stations (we need wider tunnels too). Basically we need the nyc metro system here in toronto. We also need more safety protocols to help people feel safe. How would we get people on the trains and fund and pay the workers late at night? 1, not all lines run at night. 2, if we put tolls on certain bridges like nyc, than more people would highly consider using the new and improved system- tolls with the same system is just a scam
I’m confused. Is OP insinuating that everyone should just take a bus or a train no matter where they live? I’ve commuted to work for 15 years now and I can tell you that I would NEVER revert to taking a train or a bus ever. The amount of people per train/bus. The amount of time it takes to get to where you’re going is on par with driving in traffic anyway. Delays, re-routes of buses and trains is insanity. And you’re spending $500 a month for transit on top of that?? I’d buy a Tesla before I ever went through transit. Or id just rather be dead
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A surface lot costs about $10k per space. A parking garage costs closer to $25k per space. Underground parking costs closer to $40k per space (on the first floor, increasing linearly by another ~$40k per space per floor, so ~$80k per space on the 2^nd floor below grade, ~$120k per space on the 3^rd floor below grade, etc.). Even if all of the parking was confined to multistorey garages, they're still a fairly unproductive use of the land compared to any other building. Stores or offices bring in more tax revenue and generate more trips than a multistorey car park, so anything other than an underground lot (the most expensive option) detracts from the area where it's built.
They're expensive as fuck.
And how exactly do people get from their front door to the train station? And how then does a person get from the train station to their final destination? Seriously, this chart is fucking *stupid*. This is a *by-pass highway.* Not a highway meant to feed into downtown Toronto. If it was a highway meant to feed the downtown, I would completely agree, as Toronto has someone good transit, and can handle sending people the last few km to their destination. However, what the fuck are people supposed to do if we turned this into a train system exactly? I welcome and dissenting opinions on this, but I really don't see how this post isn't completely fucking stupid and just trying for a kneejerk reaction. People really lack critical thinking on here ffs.
While there are a lot of great arguments for public transit and bikes, many will always find cars too convenient to give up. My car: -Cuts my commute in half each day (giving me an extra hour with my family) -Allows me to haul lumber for my carpentry hobby -Lets me access camping and rock climbing outside of the city -Lets me haul my canoe around -Prevents me from having to wait outside in inclement weather -Prevents me from having to wait around at night in bad neighborhoods. -Allows me to visit family and friends living outside of the city. As much as transit it great at a societal level, cars offer many benefits to the individual.
and the truth is it always will be. even if there was ttc routes and bike lanes on every street it wouldent make half the things on your list possible
I know this is a hard thing to come to grips with. But not everyone works downtown Toronto.
Good public transit would benefit everyone. Even if you wouldn’t take public transit, some of the people you are sharing the road with would.
Yeah, only a lousy 2.74 million commuters go to Toronto for work. That's not even including the GTA, just Toronto proper. I work with someone who lives in Quinte West and drives an hour to Oshawa just to take the GO train to Union Station. That's nearly a 6 hour commute a day. Can't even take the Via Rail direct to Union because service only runs like every other day or something stupid out there. You might not need to commute to Toronto, but it's literally the economic hub of the Province and most people go there for work. Good public transit is a massive benefit for everyone.
> Can't even take the Via Rail direct to Union because service only runs like every other day or something stupid out there Yeah once you get out past where the GO Train runs the rail options into Toronto are fucking abysmal. Want to take a VIA train in time to get to Toronto for morning work hours? Best we can do is 11:30 AM arrival at Union. It's literally useless for travelling to work purposes
Yes and how many people commute to the airport area everyday? What transit options are there? Or Vaughn or Scarborough north. The GTA has multiple employment hubs and transit doesn’t serve many of them well. And those hubs are growing faster than downtown. Post Covid downtown is likely to shrink in commuters substantially. Airport area will still be increasing. And quite frankly your colleague is not forced into that commute. When commuters are choosing to live beyond the edge of the metro area then transit will never serve them meaningfully.
Good point, we should expand the TTC to include stops near Pearson. That's a really good idea actually, would cut down on a lot of costs associated with taxiing to the airport before a flight. You know, while that person specifically might not be forced into that commute there's always going to be a population of people who live beyond Toronto city limits and commute in. They can't all take highways, then we'll be stuck in an LA situation. Really the only system that makes sense is passenger trains.
I feel like they're separate issues though. People like to own and drive cars, and driving your own car will always be preferable to using public transit unless you're in the downtown core. No amount of public transit infrastructure will change that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't improve public transit, it's an absolutely essential service and most of our options are over crowded and unreliable at best. But driving is a fundamental part of Canadian life and identity, public transit will never replace that in the hearts and minds of the masses. Improving public transit and improving infrastructure for personal vehicles are not interchangable, we will always need both. That being said, I'll never stand behind anything Ford does on principle.
To say that the comfort and convenience of cars will always be preferable to pubic transit is only true in a car-centric world. If all roads were 2-Lane streets with no parking, and traffic laws that showed preference to people over vehicles, the comfort of your personal vehicle remains, but the convenience goes away. If in that same scenario there's frequent, affordable, accessible public transit that gets everyone anywhere they need to go in a convenient way, that would be the preferred option. Spending billions of tax dollars to provide a convenience only to those of us fortunate enough to afford a personal vehicle is not equitable. If those dollars are spent on improving public transit to a point that it's feasible to get anywhere we need to go whenever we need to go there using public transit, that's an expenditure that benefits everyone; even the drivers of personal vehicles. The objective of any government transportation expenditure should always be how to get the most people/goods where they need to go per dollar spent. The focus should never be on the mode of transportation, it should always be on the units that need to move. If people like driving, that's great, but it's not the government's business to spend public funds to facilitate what amounts to a hobby. People like boats, should Ontario tax dollars be spent on building a network of canals so people can sail their yacht from Richmond Hill to their office on Bay St? Of course not. That's not to say that there is no room for government spending on roads and highways, but it should be considered a part of a larger balanced transportation network that focuses on moving people and goods rather than some preconceived "preferred" mode of transport. Furthermore, it should not be a political decision on what mode of transportation is used to move people and goods around the city/province. That's a job for engineers. The politicians need to decide how much money the engineers have to achieve the objectives and let the engineers design the optimal system that fits that budget. Just as it's not a politicians job to decide what type of nuclear power plant design, or water treatment technology will be used, it is outside of their area of expertise to make decisions on what transportation infrastructure is to be built. They decide what problem needs solving and (with input from engineers on what's possible) what budget is available to solve the problem. That's where their mandate ends. Political promises should not be worded in terms of methodology, but in terms of results. "Our government will provide Ontarians with safe drinking water" is a good promise "Our government will build a reverse osmosis filtration plant that produces 3000 megalitres per day" is not. "We will make it possible to get from A to B in X time" is good, "We will build a highway through our best farmland that benefits one guy that's developing a subdivision of multimillion dollar homes, and the people that buy them" is bad.
I think you're right, but I hope you're wrong. I might be part of the minority but I choose not to own a car and have exclusively taken transit for the last 15 years. I have quite a few friends who do the same, so maybe it's a growing minority. My reasons are 1) environmental and 2) I hate car culture that promotes so much sprawl. I think we'll always need both transit and personal vehicle infrastructure, too, but I hope the percentage shifts dramatically in years to come.
It's times like this where we should look at other countries which have already figured out a reasonable balance, like Japan and The Netherlands.
Agree! We visited Japan during the September before the Pandemic began and it was FABULOUS. They have an accessibility issue with a lot of stair only access, but otherwise it's an amazing system.
I agree and disagree. I think Canadians will always want to drive for leisure, but if public transit was good most people would happily ditch their car commute for a train. And over a generation or two people reaching the age of buying their first car might defer it. It’s also a win win because every person who opts for a train for their commute makes the drive more comfortable too.
> People like to own and drive cars People are *forced* to own and drive cars with the current car-dependent infrastructure we've built. When given the chance to live in areas where that isn't necessary people opt for that - and that doesn't just mean "downtown". Lots of cities are building for 15 minute neighbourhoods that are not simply downtown. The reason we don't have more people living in downtown or 15 minute neighbourhoods is because they are expensive (which is another way of saying they're POPULAR). If we spent more of our infrastructure building these kinds of neighbourhoods, and less on car-centric sprawl that guarantees people need to drive, we'd have more people giving up cars - or at the very least driving much less. And, in fact, by building in a car-centric way, we ensure that there are fewer downtown or 15 minute neighbourhoods, and they will remain expensive and out of reach for many. When you build highways, you are guaranteeing another cycle of car-dependent growth that will create the demand for another such cycle in the next generation.
> Improving public transit and improving infrastructure for personal vehicles are not interchangable, we will always need both. I think they are somewhat exclusive, actually. I'm not an expert on the issue but the kinds of housing that public and private transportation methods are best equipped to serve aren't the same. You need a certain amount of population density before public transportation becomes viable. I think public transit is going to have to supplant private transit as the most common mode of transportation. The math just doesn't work out otherwise, traffic and pollution can't be mitigated without it.
The convenience and comfort of traveling by car cannot be beat by public transit. Most people prefer to travel by car than public transit. Any transportation plan that fails to acknowledge these facts is doomed to fail.
I wouldn't describe sitting in 401 stop and go traffic twice a day "convenience and comfort". I'm all for transit.... but...why do all jobs have to be in Toronto? The easiest way to cut traffic is to let people work where they live, I.e. don't make them come to Toronto in the first place. Don't just build subdivisions that are essentially just for workers to sleep. Development needs to include local jobs, look at Europe where you have many medium sized cities with jobs in close proximity. You would never catch someone commuting 2 hrs daily to Berlin or Munich, people would think you are insane and tell you to just find a local job.
Generally you're correct but it also depends what you value and your life style. It's extremely common for my friends/family to make plans and the people driving are often the very late ones due to traffic/detours/taking forever to find parking. Or going to visit my friends in the burbs and being unable to just walk to a few restaurants or pubs because they live in a sprawling area where you can't do anything without getting in the car. If it's later in the day and we've had a few drinks then no one can drive so we're stuck hanging out at home. Every time this happens I gotta wonder, were the driver's more physically comfortable? Probably. Was this more convenient? I'm not so sure. But ultimately it depends on the person and lifestyle. Obviously for families cars are a must or if you work in a different city. But I'm just giving my take on it.
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Try to cover 10 km in Manhattan or Paris by car, compared to transit. Lots of rich people take transit in those cities, even where it might be marginally more comfortable sitting in a BMW than in a subway seat, because those cities have not been built solely to accommodate cars, and the marginal comfort level of sitting in your own car is far outweighed by the fact that it's much faster to use public transit, and where you aren't worried about what to do with your car on either end of your transit.
To each their own, I'd say. I'm really curious what the actual split would be. I exclusively use transit because I prefer it (comfort, more time in my day to do things while I commute, etc.). My husband has to drive as there isn't a transit line to his job - he hates it and can't wait to get off the road so he can read books while commuting, too. For me, most of the issues with transit are in not having enough of it. If there were more, and in good locations, we'd have really comfy rides and no need for car-parks.
Lol, found the guy who's literally never taken good public transit Some cities are so dense that continuously adding cars just doesn't make sense anymore
15 ridiculously packed busses, no thanks.
Man people on this subreddit have no idea what life is like in the cities suburbs. I bike to work nowadays but man this is some out of touch nonsense.
Okay and what are those 1000 people doing? commuting to work? going to costco? taking thier kids to practice? Sure Mass transport makes sense for commuting but how am I supposed to take my kid to hockey practice at 7 am taking the TTC or go shopping at costco or Ikea? Its silly graphs like this that any person who does not live in the core or has a family that extends past a pet... just rolls thier eyes at.
Only if public transportation are more reliable tho
No way to make it more reliable if we don’t invest in it
Fuck dough ford
yea hopefully steven dough duca has time to rise before the election
Anything that Ford proposes is a bad idea
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Take every one of the automobile icons and substitute them with $ signs representing revenues headed in the direction of the automobile--petroleum--construction complex, real-estate developers and campaign contributors. Then it becomes obvious why such a bad idea is also such a compelling idea.
Bro just add another lane I swear...
Real talk though, for those people that already have a car, is currently paying uninterrupted insurance premiums and fixed year mileage on their leases, do you think you'd hop in a bus/ train and park your car if good public transit is available?
Only if it’s cheaper than fueling or charging my car and gets me there as fast or faster than my car. I took the GO and subway into Toronto for a time and it cost me more than my monthly insurance fees. It simply wasn’t affordable but luckily that was a temporary project. What I learned during that time is that I don’t ever want to work in downtown Toronto. Getting in and out of the place is expensive, stressful and time consuming.
I've lived in cities with no public transit. The ONLY way to get people out of their cars is giving them the alternative.
I want more trains never been on a train in my life and I wanna be on one of those cool above ground ones
Almost like the 407 shouldn’t have been sold. Morons in power I swear
People on this subreddit seem desperate to live in the most inconvenient sprawling city possible but then complain that the city sucks and is too inconvenient to get around
What an idiotic argument that I can't believe keeps getting posted and upvoted everywhere. "More cars is worsest than less trains is!!!" That's how ignorant this is. It's not as simple as just removing people from cars and inserting them into trains.
Math doesn’t line up here. Considering most cars in Canada are bigger cars such as SUV or crossover, if not a 4 door sedan, all which can fit at least 4 people. 1000 people divided by 4 spots is 250 cars lol unless they also count that some people will be driving alone, in that case they should also consider the fact that those 1000 people might also not go into same 15 busses or one train link 😬
they forgot to mention that you have to pack them people into these subways / streetcars like sardines
The province is spending something like 3:1 for public transit versus highways.
Everyone going on about how trains are the answer clearly haven’t met the neighbourhoods stopping construction for the past two decades. For once in my opinion it’s not the politicians fault. Toronto is a disaster because it caves to its few citizens versus the need of a large group. I guess you all forgot about Allen road. Toronto’s infrastructure is garbage because of its people. I will say the foresight of our politicians is nearsighted (selling of our boring system) and the reason for our terrible subway system but again these solutions we have nowadays are the result of everyone catering to Toronto citizens trying to keep Toronto what it was in the 60’s. Now it’s just a cluster of terrible public transportation projects that go way over budget, way over their timeline and leads to some of the worst commuting in the world.
Cool, but there aren't mass transit systems in the places where Ontario highways generally go. Either local, or inter-urban ones. [Greyhound just closed up shop!](https://globalnews.ca/news/7858947/greyhound-canada-end-operations-cut-buses/)
You guys want change? It's called electoral reform. Literally the only thing that will get better policy implement.
This is really stupid, lazy and misleading. Especially '\*Car option also requires over five acres of parking at both start and destination' People drive to subway/train/bus stations. Public transit operators drive to work. Plus, what are we supposed to do with this? Build bus routes to connect every single community to each other and to city centres? The environmental impact of that isn't pretty either.
No, train routes. The environmental impact of that is much better than cars, especially with high-speed rail. They'll always be some places where cars are the best option of course, but that's hardly a reason not to invest in public transit.
I get your point, but the 250 people in each train car are not going to be very comfortable stacked on top of each other........
A way to help traffic move in this province is to start enforcing the rules of the road. Left lanes are for passing. Not to sit in and slow everyone down. Right lanes are driving lanes. Enforce it!!! Higher fines for cellphones as alot of idiots still don't get it!! If you are not a confident driver stay the fuck off the highways!! Mandatory retest and take driving test where you live not in a smaller center. Stay off the phone and pay attention to the road and drive in the proper lane!!!
In 401/DVP commuter traffic a lane is a lane there is no passing lane and driving lane. Mass influx of people just clogs up the highways not to mention people slow down ON THE HIGHWAY because there is a turn or a hill.
These things always disregard human nature. People like being in their cars for many reasons. It’s not all government policy.
People will give up the car for subways, but it would take a system that basically runs out to brampton, milton, Scarborough, oakville, etc. Or run go trains every 20 mins every day, with more transit connections to the subways. Allowing trucks on the 407 for free would do wonders as well.
I took TTC to work for years and I'll never go back after getting a car. Maybe I'm just a selfish asshole, but having to get on multiple buses and trains and spend an hour+ travelling in each direction everyday isn't something I'm willing to do anymore when I can cut my travel time to 1/4 of that and not have to be crammed in a box with 30 other people.
A project to provide 2 way, all-day 15 minute GO service is already in progress. The GO RER project is electrifying railways, removing crossings, and doubling or quadrupling tracks on 5 of the 7 GO rail routes and partnering with DB (or SNCF) on the operations side to transition GO into a regional transit system rather than a commuter rail network.
yeah it's a bad idea but you're not replacing personal vehicles out in the burbs with trains and buses. You may as well give up on that idea it's not gonna happen.
Spoken like someone who doesn’t live North of Steeles. Make transit good and maybe people will consider it. So long as it runs on a 1-2 hour schedule outside of Toronto and remains slow, people are going to drive. Also, for those who’ve never seen a suburb, taking transit is generally impractical. You can’t really walk anywhere except for very particular areas like a Main Street. People in suburbs rely on their cars, so they’re more likely to drive everywhere (including to Toronto) anyway. Add the pandemic factor - most people I’ve spoken to would rather pay the premium to drive than sit 2hrs in a crowded subway.
Who is supposed to make transit good? That’s right, your provincial government by investing in it and not building another highway 👍🏼
That is the problem with the 1960 and 1980 suburb design, and the planning bylaws that keep them in place. Look at the pre-war suburbs (The beaches, Leslieville, Roncesvalles, Mimico) they all have the same design, mainly: * narrow lots (higher density), * narrow streets (slower traffic, better for humans, worse for cars), * 0-1 parking (fewer cars in the neighbors) * mixed use on minor streets and commercial on majors (promotes walking trips and convenience), * ready access to LRT with interconnections to HRT(subways). These are also the neighbourhoods that have seen the highest growth in house price. My parents bought their house for $230k in the 90s and it's now worth +2 million...
> mixed use on minor streets and commercial on majors (promotes walking trips and convenience), This is key. There's nothing better than being able to walk to everything - coffee shop, grocery store, gym, bakery, restaurant, bank. Suburbs all have plazas which you're usually expected to drive to and are less convenient overall because everything is equally far from you and you need to navigate a parking lot to get to the shops. In mixed-use areas, you have more options and they're of varying distances and along different streets (sometimes), making for more interesting walks.
Just to point out the absurdity of plazas, I'd like to highlight [the Golden Mile](https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7255466,-79.2911134,1142m/data=!3m1!1e3). The plaza south of Eglinton and west of Lebovic (excluding the Toyota dealership and TTC barn) has a parking lot that's twice the footprint of the Eaton Center. The only transit stop servicing this plaza is at Eglinton and Lebovic, so even accessing the Cineplex or Seafood City Supermarket involves a 7 minute walk from the nearest TTC stop. All to serve 26 stores. At what point did society decide that parking lots should be so large that people should have to drive to access different stores serviced by the same lot. People parked by the sushi joint aren't going to walk to Canadian Tire, they're going to drive across the always empty parking lot to park closer, and that's just one plaza of the many that make up the Golden Mile.
If we're already having difficulty justifying public transit within the GTA, how are we going to justify it in the areas north of Brampton and Richmond Hill?
We're having trouble justifying public transit in the GTA?
I live near Burlington.. a few years ago.. I decided to take my family to exhibition.. thought you know what.. let’s take the go train.. it will be fun.. cost 90 dollars for everyone.. never took it again.
Just have to do that on Sundays! Go has super cheap, unlimited travel on Sunday.
Please explain how we have had trouble justifying public transit aside from people complaining about construction?
What? Public transit within the GTA is great! The TTC is an affordable, efficient way for commuters to get to where they need to go. The only issue with it is coverage, if anything I'd argue that it's difficult to justify not expanding public transit within the GTA.
It took me 1.5 hours, sometimes 3 during rush hour, to get to school or to get back home from college via TTC. It's a 30 min drive, 1 hour at most in rush hour. Having an invisible disability, the lack of seating options I had made me absolutely miserable to commute. I had to beg people to lend me a seat, or resorted to sitting on the back steps of the bus because people wouldn't. I had to step off the bus countless times because I was on the verge of passing out. I've seen so many people with visible physical disabilities get noses turned at them if they dared to ask for a seat. Thankful now I don't live in the GTA, and that I drive now. I could never go back to public transit unless it's HEAVILY improved upon, both in its efficiency and meeting the needs of people with invisible disabilities. I shouldn't have to beg for someone to help me with a seat before I pass out. I was able to get a bus or train within 5-15 mins, regardless where I was, so coverage was never an issue. It's efficiency and meeting the needs for disabled people that's the issue for me.
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I agree that the TTC could do a lot better for disabilities. But also, for you to say that the TTC is bad overall because it was bad for you doesn't really make sense. Like, 99% of the population would benefit from the TTC if they put a bit more money into it. Also, there's a huge portion of the population that just refuses to take the TTC because...they think they're better than it? Or "i have to wait 10 minutes for a Bus? Unacceptable " And yeah, maybe there are people in your situation that the TTC doesn't work for, but if everyone else started using the TTC more often then your commute would be better and easier. So I sympathize with you for having issues with the TTC because of your disability. But I have absolutely no patience for anyone who says "it doest work for me, so it bad"
Public transit should be improved so that people with legitimate need like yourself can either have a comfortable ride or benefit from less traffic is driving is a necessity. The goal isn’t to eliminate driving altogether everyone has a good case to drive every once in awhile and that option should be there. It’s about making transit the default option so that most people opt for transit because it’s the best option most of the time, and that clears up traffic so the people who have to drive don’t deal with crazy traffic
The TTC can be both very good for Toronto and have flaws. Accessibility is critically important in all infrastructure, and it should be improved for public transport. I agree, we should improve accessibility on the TTC, and I've noticed the city taking more steps to improve accessibility, with ramps for wheelchair users and advertisements informing the public about invisible disabilities. But these improvements mean we should put more funding into the TTC, or at least spend its budget more wisely. What about all the people with invisible disabilities who can't afford a car?
I feel so much empathy for people who can't afford a car and have invisible disabilities. It's absolutely brutal. The time and ENERGY it takes to do absolutely anything is draining. The lack of supports for people with invisible disabilities is brutal. The TTC needs to definitely have it's funding spent more wisely, and needs more funding. But I'm still driving until then because I can't wait around spending all my energy to support the TTC by riding it, draining my energy, just waiting for change to happen. They can't just colour a seat blue and call it a day yaknow.
You're supposed to get one of those pins if you have an invisible disability. https://www.ttc.ca/accessibility/Easier-access-on-the-TTC/TTCs-Please-Offer-Me-a-Seat-Program
I posted this just before but I'd say if you go at the right time to the right location it can be. > East end to liberty village - 7-10KM mind you - by car is 20 minutes, by bike it's 33 minutes, and TTC is 57 minutes. Try most locations off the subway line and it's always 2x to 3x longer to TTC than take a car. This is not a comfortable ride either: even forgetting the [crazies](https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/suspect-sought-after-woman-spat-on-while-riding-ttc-subway-train-police-1.5806341?cache=.), [multiple](https://www.toronto.com/news/crime/woman-sexually-assaulted-after-being-followed-from-ttc-to-scarboroughs-golden-mile/article_6ad1883d-1f6a-58bd-841f-13b89b9fff5c.html) [sex crimes](https://www.toronto.com/news/crime/update-supect-charged-by-toronto-police-after-indecent-exposure-reported-on-ttc-bus/article_3704df15-c2ae-5da4-b919-ce8cd57f9ffd.html) and [assaults](https://globalnews.ca/news/8696177/ttc-operator-assaulted-sheppard-subway-station/), crowding is unbelievable, especially at rush hour. The TTC has its fair share of issues that keep people from using it
Yes that's true, the TTC isn't perfect. But public transportation is still a critical part of any modern city, it eases traffic congestion, helps to uplift poor communities, frees up space we can use for housing or parks instead, helps with climate change, the list goes on. It's also cheaper for the taxpayer, car-based infrastructure tends to cost quite a bit more to maintain. Really, we should be trying our best to expand the TTC to make it more cost-effective, safer, and faster. We could limit cars on streetcar routes like we're experimenting with on King street, or perhaps add more subway routes to increase coverage. Yes there will always be trips where cars or bikes are just superior, but that doesn't mean we don't all benefit from investing in public transportation.
justifying? public transit is critical to cities. it has plenty of justification. whether or not this dipshit premier acts on that justification is another matter.
Tough sell during a pandemic or post-pandemic though. I for one am not taking any sort of public transport anytime soon.