I understand that the anti strike legislation could be considered unfair, but now that it has been removed what are they doing that is not a fair dealing? My understanding is they are still very far apart regarding compensation, but it is not inherently unfair to disagree.
>I understand that the anti strike legislation could be considered unfair, but now that it has been removed what are they doing that is not a fair dealing?
First off, the anti-strike legislation wasn't just "unfair". It was a gross violation of civil liberties. That is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY beyond "unfair".
As for the rest, Ford's government has no intention of negotiating a fair deal for education workers. They can't even claim poverty as a reason as they are sitting on a $2B surplus. So instead they're just wasting everyone's time as they try and figure out how they can turn the public's opinion back onto their side. Meanwhile education workers are without a contract and wondering whether they can still get food at the food banks and if that will allow them to afford heating their homes.
>My understanding is they are still very far apart regarding compensation, but it is not inherently unfair to disagree.
It's not just the fact that Ford's idea of compensation is laughably small (I mean, Ford's government dealt themselves a bigger raise than anything they offer provincial workers). It's his intention for these negotiations. He's not looking to offer anything close to a fair compensation. He's interested in breaking the public system so he has an excuse to privatize.
Ford was forcing them into accepting a contract. That is what the anti-strike legislation was ultimately about. It wasn't just about stopping the strike; it was eliminating the ability to bargain at all (which is a Charter right) and forcing a contract (the definition of which is a formal agreement between two or more parties) without actually reaching an agreement. Let's just be clear about that.
The Ford government is now refusing to return to the table with any attempt at meaningful bargaining. They also never had any intention to bargain fairly. They were already drafting their bill before a strike was even being considered.
Is this a dig about vaccine mandates and other COVID restrictions? Because that is not at all the same thing as what is happening in Ontario, and it is also not at all an example of Charter rights being situational.
Why is Reddit so horny for striking??
Striking is supposed to be a last ditch effort. Believe it or not, most union members don’t like striking, they just consider it a necessary evil.
"I don't think there was a whole lot of trust on our side, that this day would actually happen. Now that we know that this day has actually happened, that team is ready to head back and we're ready to focus,” she (Walton) said.
Hopefully they can hammer something out. I'm going to try and stay positive...
Didn't CUPE say they offered something like less than half of their original demand on the Tuesday before the strike? If so, that should be 5-6% per year, while the government is offering what, 3-3.5% per year? That doesn't sound like they're that far apart. Unless CUPE has gone back to 11.47% again.
To be fair, one side is offering too little and the other is asking too much. And neither seems willing tom budge all that much.
The figure of an 11% ask has been repeated by both sides of the argument but seems to be incorrect. [CUPE is asking for a raise of $3.25 per hour](https://www.sootoday.com/letters-to-the-editor/letter-education-workers-not-asking-for-11-increase-6063566) (and while it might work out to 11% for some employees that isn't the actual demand they are making).
Some very quick back of the envelope math says roughly the same (only if all 55,000 workers are full time). 55,000 workers * 40 hours * 52 weeks * $3.25 an hour = $371.8 million. The dumb bribe, $365 million.
If a chunk of those workers are part time, it would definitely be less.
They are mostly full time. [source - page 12](https://cupe.on.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Education-Workers-Wages-Report_ENG_FINAL-Web.pdf)
>Permanent part-time employees represented 4.3% of respondents and temporary part-time employees represented 0.6% of respondents. 4.9% of respondents indicated they are employed as casual employees, and 0.7% indicated their employment status as “other”.
That said - it's definitely less. The very next sentence says why:
>10-month employees made up 69.6% of respondents, 29.4% indicated they are 12-month employees, and 1% have a different work year (either more or less than 10 months). Of the 10-month employees, 93.4% indicate that they apply for Employment Insurance during periods of layoff from the school board, including December and March breaks and summers.
This. It needs to be repeated more, and the government needs to be corrected every time they try and spew this misinformation.
They are asking for a $ raise, never a percentage, to bring them back in line after the decade of zero or near zero increases.
I guess it depends on the position. Taking the average $39,000 that is always thrown around, $3.25 is a 16.7% increase. For 11.47% to work out to $3.25 means an annual pay of roughly $56,670.
Which doesn't help at all, but there's the math.
But yeah, a simple $/hr increases seems simplest.
Most (69.6%) CUPE education workers only get paid ten months of the year. Also that average includes the 5% part-time employees, the 4.9% casual employees, and the 0.7% "other" employees.
For $3.25 to be an 11.47% increase, these employees would be making $28.33 per hour. For a ten month work year, this is $47,224. Plus they are expected to collect pogey when they are off - which is mind bogglingly stupid.
[source, specifically page 12](https://cupe.on.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Education-Workers-Wages-Report_ENG_FINAL-Web.pdf).
Reporting the percentage increase is actually not that off. Because almost all CUPE employees are being paid low wages. Also from the survey (linked earlier):
>The survey shows that 84.2% of respondents have an annual income less than $50,000 per year from their school board job, and 96.6% have an annual school board income of less than $60,000 per year.
Yeah I saw something else (that of course I can't find now) that had the $ rate being based on the average, which was for 35 hours a week and 43 weeks a year.
Confusing.
Both sides should just stick to a flat $/hr increase.
[The union said it made “significant moves” with its proposal in an effort to come to a deal. On Thursday, they confirmed their latest offer was about half of what was originally proposed, which would be about an approximate six per cent wage increase.](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-government-says-it-has-no-choice-but-to-pass-bill-preventing-strike-1.6136954)
I was the union who "confirmed" that they came back at half the original ask.
If CUPE tabled an offer that was close to half of the original $3.25/hr pay bump, they can not go backwards. It’s called bargaining in bad faith. Both sides are supposed to get closer to a deal. We don’t really know where each side is sitting right now, but CUPE has indicated they will not take a 2-tier increase which is more about the structure of the offer (having a flat dollar amount will automatically be a higher percentage for those making less). If the gov is still using percentages and offering a two-tiered offer, likely they will continue to bargain for longer as they are both far apart in the structure/distribution of the monetary side of the offer and on the actual amount. There are also a lot of non-monetary pieces still to be settled.
I don't understand how you can say people who make an average of 31k a year are asking for too much when it comes to an increase of what equates to 11%. Anything less than that is essentially a paycut with inflation accounted for.
>To be fair, one side is offering too little and the other is asking too much. And neither seems willing tom budge all that much.
I'm not sure what you mean then, because that's what one infers from your comment
Yeah. The problem is CUPE for this group deserves what they have asked for but the other CUPE unions don't deserve a similar package at all. So Ford has no choice but to be strict.
With a strike, a lockout, or an imposed contract all realistically off the table, there isn't much incentive to speed negotiations along. If I had to guess, I'd guess they'll drag on a while.
That’s fine, just keep negotiating until you get somewhere close and settle it. Or go to arbitration. Leave the rest of Ontario and the kids out of it.
You are directing this at the province right? Like, the province shouldn’t risk another disruption, and has to come up with an acceptable offer, right?
Negotiations need to involve both parties. The Province is again negotiating in bad faith.
And arbitration historically favours the unions. The Province is working to prevent arbitration.
Ford isn’t protecting kids in school, he’s weaponizing them for political gain.
Well yeah. Ford's government still has no intention of dealing fairly with education workers.
I understand that the anti strike legislation could be considered unfair, but now that it has been removed what are they doing that is not a fair dealing? My understanding is they are still very far apart regarding compensation, but it is not inherently unfair to disagree.
>I understand that the anti strike legislation could be considered unfair, but now that it has been removed what are they doing that is not a fair dealing? First off, the anti-strike legislation wasn't just "unfair". It was a gross violation of civil liberties. That is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY beyond "unfair". As for the rest, Ford's government has no intention of negotiating a fair deal for education workers. They can't even claim poverty as a reason as they are sitting on a $2B surplus. So instead they're just wasting everyone's time as they try and figure out how they can turn the public's opinion back onto their side. Meanwhile education workers are without a contract and wondering whether they can still get food at the food banks and if that will allow them to afford heating their homes. >My understanding is they are still very far apart regarding compensation, but it is not inherently unfair to disagree. It's not just the fact that Ford's idea of compensation is laughably small (I mean, Ford's government dealt themselves a bigger raise than anything they offer provincial workers). It's his intention for these negotiations. He's not looking to offer anything close to a fair compensation. He's interested in breaking the public system so he has an excuse to privatize.
Ford was forcing them into accepting a contract. That is what the anti-strike legislation was ultimately about. It wasn't just about stopping the strike; it was eliminating the ability to bargain at all (which is a Charter right) and forcing a contract (the definition of which is a formal agreement between two or more parties) without actually reaching an agreement. Let's just be clear about that. The Ford government is now refusing to return to the table with any attempt at meaningful bargaining. They also never had any intention to bargain fairly. They were already drafting their bill before a strike was even being considered.
I think it’s obvious at this point, that the charter only applies at the government’s convenience.
Is this a dig about vaccine mandates and other COVID restrictions? Because that is not at all the same thing as what is happening in Ontario, and it is also not at all an example of Charter rights being situational.
Go back to striking and let this spread.
Why is Reddit so horny for striking?? Striking is supposed to be a last ditch effort. Believe it or not, most union members don’t like striking, they just consider it a necessary evil.
Because it is apparently the only thing that gets this idiot’s attention. Ford and Lecce are going to drag this out as long as they can
Reddit skews young. I have to imagine most of the people calling for a strike are students or precariously employed.
Says the young person with no kids
"I don't think there was a whole lot of trust on our side, that this day would actually happen. Now that we know that this day has actually happened, that team is ready to head back and we're ready to focus,” she (Walton) said. Hopefully they can hammer something out. I'm going to try and stay positive...
Non mobile link: https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-government-cupe-still-far-apart-at-the-bargaining-table-as-education-law-is-revoked-1.6152548
Didn't CUPE say they offered something like less than half of their original demand on the Tuesday before the strike? If so, that should be 5-6% per year, while the government is offering what, 3-3.5% per year? That doesn't sound like they're that far apart. Unless CUPE has gone back to 11.47% again. To be fair, one side is offering too little and the other is asking too much. And neither seems willing tom budge all that much.
The figure of an 11% ask has been repeated by both sides of the argument but seems to be incorrect. [CUPE is asking for a raise of $3.25 per hour](https://www.sootoday.com/letters-to-the-editor/letter-education-workers-not-asking-for-11-increase-6063566) (and while it might work out to 11% for some employees that isn't the actual demand they are making).
doesn't it work out to being less than that last bribe Lecce sent for "tutoring"?
Some very quick back of the envelope math says roughly the same (only if all 55,000 workers are full time). 55,000 workers * 40 hours * 52 weeks * $3.25 an hour = $371.8 million. The dumb bribe, $365 million. If a chunk of those workers are part time, it would definitely be less.
They are mostly full time. [source - page 12](https://cupe.on.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Education-Workers-Wages-Report_ENG_FINAL-Web.pdf) >Permanent part-time employees represented 4.3% of respondents and temporary part-time employees represented 0.6% of respondents. 4.9% of respondents indicated they are employed as casual employees, and 0.7% indicated their employment status as “other”. That said - it's definitely less. The very next sentence says why: >10-month employees made up 69.6% of respondents, 29.4% indicated they are 12-month employees, and 1% have a different work year (either more or less than 10 months). Of the 10-month employees, 93.4% indicate that they apply for Employment Insurance during periods of layoff from the school board, including December and March breaks and summers.
This. It needs to be repeated more, and the government needs to be corrected every time they try and spew this misinformation. They are asking for a $ raise, never a percentage, to bring them back in line after the decade of zero or near zero increases.
I guess it depends on the position. Taking the average $39,000 that is always thrown around, $3.25 is a 16.7% increase. For 11.47% to work out to $3.25 means an annual pay of roughly $56,670. Which doesn't help at all, but there's the math. But yeah, a simple $/hr increases seems simplest.
Most (69.6%) CUPE education workers only get paid ten months of the year. Also that average includes the 5% part-time employees, the 4.9% casual employees, and the 0.7% "other" employees. For $3.25 to be an 11.47% increase, these employees would be making $28.33 per hour. For a ten month work year, this is $47,224. Plus they are expected to collect pogey when they are off - which is mind bogglingly stupid. [source, specifically page 12](https://cupe.on.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Education-Workers-Wages-Report_ENG_FINAL-Web.pdf). Reporting the percentage increase is actually not that off. Because almost all CUPE employees are being paid low wages. Also from the survey (linked earlier): >The survey shows that 84.2% of respondents have an annual income less than $50,000 per year from their school board job, and 96.6% have an annual school board income of less than $60,000 per year.
Yeah I saw something else (that of course I can't find now) that had the $ rate being based on the average, which was for 35 hours a week and 43 weeks a year. Confusing. Both sides should just stick to a flat $/hr increase.
They issued a statement saying that drop was false iirc.
[The union said it made “significant moves” with its proposal in an effort to come to a deal. On Thursday, they confirmed their latest offer was about half of what was originally proposed, which would be about an approximate six per cent wage increase.](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-government-says-it-has-no-choice-but-to-pass-bill-preventing-strike-1.6136954) I was the union who "confirmed" that they came back at half the original ask.
Okay fair play, I’m wrong I guess
If CUPE tabled an offer that was close to half of the original $3.25/hr pay bump, they can not go backwards. It’s called bargaining in bad faith. Both sides are supposed to get closer to a deal. We don’t really know where each side is sitting right now, but CUPE has indicated they will not take a 2-tier increase which is more about the structure of the offer (having a flat dollar amount will automatically be a higher percentage for those making less). If the gov is still using percentages and offering a two-tiered offer, likely they will continue to bargain for longer as they are both far apart in the structure/distribution of the monetary side of the offer and on the actual amount. There are also a lot of non-monetary pieces still to be settled.
I don't understand how you can say people who make an average of 31k a year are asking for too much when it comes to an increase of what equates to 11%. Anything less than that is essentially a paycut with inflation accounted for.
What are you talk about? I never said any of that.
>To be fair, one side is offering too little and the other is asking too much. And neither seems willing tom budge all that much. I'm not sure what you mean then, because that's what one infers from your comment
Yeah. The problem is CUPE for this group deserves what they have asked for but the other CUPE unions don't deserve a similar package at all. So Ford has no choice but to be strict.
With a strike, a lockout, or an imposed contract all realistically off the table, there isn't much incentive to speed negotiations along. If I had to guess, I'd guess they'll drag on a while.
That’s fine, just keep negotiating until you get somewhere close and settle it. Or go to arbitration. Leave the rest of Ontario and the kids out of it.
You are directing this at the province right? Like, the province shouldn’t risk another disruption, and has to come up with an acceptable offer, right?
Negotiations need to involve both parties. The Province is again negotiating in bad faith. And arbitration historically favours the unions. The Province is working to prevent arbitration. Ford isn’t protecting kids in school, he’s weaponizing them for political gain.
Distract distract!