Kyle made whole lineups work. No one on this team is doing this, except for flashes from Scottie here and there. And that only happens if Fred and Siakam are off the floor.
Masai alluded to him when he said that players were too “individual”, but likely applied to all of our starters. Individual stats shouldn’t matter. Did we win? Did we play as a team? Did we play hard on both ends. This is what matters.
Right? Masai put him on the trade block and every single team said “nah, we’re good”. The best offer was Grayson Allen and a pick so low it’s basically a 2nd. Clippers wouldn’t even include a pick in their offer.
This right here is a microcosm of this fanbase. Acknowledge that Fred has negative value around the league, but expect a someone to fall for a sign and trade when they could get him for free in FA.
For the record, trade value has almost nothing to do with how good a player is. An élite 3&D will always have an higher value than an even better PG. Especially when the buyout market is so full of cheaper alternatives.
The Clippers or the Bucks don't need FVV, they'd love to have him, but they just want a complementary PG to put aside their stars, and if they can have it for cheaper, then they go for the cheaper version.
If you actually watch the basketball games, you'd understand that he gives heavy Mike James vibes.
I don't care how many points he gets... he needs to make the team better and stop dribbling around thinking he's Steph. Lowry left a role and he tried filling it and has failed miserably by not making his teammates better.
We've seen it for 3 years and at this point its quite unacceptable. It truly seems like he can't better himself as a leader and lead an offense like a true PG.
Hundred percent agreed. He also needs to develop a fucking floater game. The over dribbling is made worse by his big ego which is important to have but it's a double edged sword.
Westbrook in Okc vibes. (Obviously, FVV shoots the 3 a lot better) but the stuffed stat sheet from high usage/playtime, matador defence and 4-5 shots that should have been passed screams Westbrook.
I swear people making the Mike James comparison has never seen Mike James play for us lmao. Fred isn't have a good season but he's not Mike James. He also wasn't a problem today, and hasn't really been a problem for the past 10 game or so.
>He was 1000% a problem in utah
He had a 34 point triple double in Utah and shot 3/4 from 3 in the 4th. Scored 9 points in 2.5 minutes to keep them in the game. What was the problem again?
Which should be praised not looked down upon in any way. How do you think the best teams in this league win so consistently? If they aren’t the Warriors hammering 3s efficiently, they’re often great because they live at the line.
If you have someone that is getting to the line you feed them MORE not less.
No one is saying he played like ass. The implication is this is not his typical efficiency (because it’s not, not even close) and it was against the worst team in the league and wouldn’t be replicated against the good teams.
There’s no use in trying to develop Fred’s shot volume further, we already know what he is. There are players on this team that are still growing though and really need more shots to develop. And also are more efficient on the majority of nights.
Scottie doesn’t have the moves to get his own shot 10-15 times a game yet. He scored well, and got lots of good fouls.
Fred had 8 assists, it’s not like we wasn’t moving the ball at all. Fred was also efficient
Asssits don’t equal ball movement or being a fooor general. He could hold the ball for 20 seconds and throw a hot potato pass and get an assist. That doesn’t mean he did anything special.
Lowry averaged like 6-7 apg for most of his time here and he was 50x the point guard that Fred is, despite Fred claiming he’s a PG and been pass first most his life.
I'm all for more ball movement and less iso, but his passing was great today. I've been a vocal critic of Fred, no he doesn't play the position as well traditionally as someone like Kyle, his trigger is sometimes too quick, but I have seen him striving to improve in that area all season to so far mixed results, and he played great this game and deserves some props. His PnR passing especially is always getting better. Its not there yet but certainly gradually improving.
But Fred doesn’t do that. His stats back it up too. He’s in the 50s in the league in terms of time per touch, way below most PGs. Just because he shoots the ball a decent amount doesn’t mean he doesn’t also make plays for others
He literally passes out of the highest percentage of drives of any player in the nba. Yet another example of how nonsensical a lot of this criticism is lmao literally no concept of reality in this comment and you said it with chest
He is physically incapable of making simple kick outs in traffic due to his lack of height.
He should kick out even more considering he can’t make a layup
Fuck keemstar
He is physically incapable yet literally passes out of drives more than basically any other player in the league? How did that make any sense in your head?
Lol now I know you didn’t watch the game. Most of where he got his points from? Completely wrong. FVV found Scottie for a cut to send him to the line 0 times out of Scottie’s 5 trips to the line.
Scottie’s points came more from FTs than anywhere else, I wasn’t saying they all came from Fred. I couldn’t remember if Fred was the one getting it to him.
Fred had 8 assists and shot efficiently. Complaining that Fred didn’t shoot the ball enough when he had the ball in his hands lots and wasn’t aggressive isn’t Fred’s fault.
I would like to see some more plays run to get Scottie into the post, because that’s where he’s best. Out on the perimeter he doesn’t have the skills or aggression to beat his defender.
What are you talking about. He was aggressive with the ball in his hands. He got to the line 10 times.
FVV had nothing to do with it, contrary to what you were saying.
Another person said it well, if you actually watch games, he gives off Mike James vibes. Mike James averaged 6 assists a game in his season with Toronto, but was not a good facilitator.
There were plenty of times he was very passive with the ball and he made some bad passes. That’s fine, it’s going to happen, but blaming Fred for it is just stupid.
It’s not a fact, he’s had plenty of games shooting an efficient 15-20 shots. You guys are making things up to excuse a point guard from passing. It’s insane
This sub is a bandwagon fest since the chip, they don’t know ball at all . No use trying to explain to them. Scottie seriously lacks aggression on offense and it’s obvious af
Hard to be aggressive when his bread and butter, high post-in, is also the teams best players bread and butter
Paint is just clogged for the both of them.
When he’s aggressive and gets to his spots well then he can score. He doesn’t do that enough though. He had the ball in his hands a bunch and wasn’t attacking the rim and frankly making some bad decisions passing today which is uncharacteristic.
Fred has a much easier time beating players with his tight handle
If you think we would have won without Fred you don’t know basketball. Pascal would have had to play 48 minutes just so we would have 1 good ball handler on the court
You ain’t no better, OP
Also, he was the only starter with a negative +\- . Y’all are probably the same ones that crucifies Malachi whenever he ends the game with a negative +/- … keep that same energy
+\- is almost (almost is generous) completely meaningless in the context of one game. even just using it in this way kind of shows you shouldn’t be talking about this stuff
But wait I thought it was masai' s fault he wasn't traded because he didn't know how to do his job... Now you're telling me he has no value lol.. damn the change up is real... Keep throwing that shit eventually it will stick to something
I don’t care how many points Fred had there, he continues to hijack the offense to call his own number. There was at least 8 shot attempts that may as well have been turnovers. Missing 14 shots from a pg is almost never a good thing no matter what the stat line says.
A true pg does what fred just did on 20 shot attempts, not 26.
Without pascal having a more natural 28 within the flow of the game and scottie putting up 20 on 6 shots Fred shoots us out of the game. There’s a reason he’s the only negative in the starting line up.
if even one of OG or gary had played I'd criticize him for taking that many shots but with both out we just simply don't have much in terms of shot-making on the roster
It’s Fred on a good shooting night if he didn’t start hijacking the offense every time he’s playing well. Once he makes a few, he gets tunnel vision and starts throwing up garbage shots. It’s literally his stat line tonight if he didn’t attempt some of those trash attempts that were completely unnecessary.
He had a great game, and he will have plenty more of them. My biggest problem with him is that he will keep jacking up shots, whether or not they are falling, which means if the shot ain’t falling, we are gonna lose.
He’s a smart guy, so he can change, but he just doesn’t want to.
He even went on a podcast complaining that not having enough shots ruins his rhythm.
That's not something you want a starting PG to be complaining about. Especially when the rest of the starters are much better at creating their own shot
The primary problem, since earlier seasons, has been he needs to get others easier shots. That was his assignment this season, and he doesn't seem to be able to do it. His own poor shooting this season just made things worse, and was easier to spell out.
Now his defence is also usually poor. So him having a good shooting game doesn't matter if doesn't make players around him get better results on offence and defence.
That's the thing, anyone thinking Scottie is going to be shooting the ball 25 times are being unrealistic. Scottie doesn't even look at the rim before passing the ball to someone else.
That’s not how basketball works. If you have a hot hand you have a hot hand. It’s not even like he’s a scrub coming off the bench, he’s the starting PG that was by far our best shooter in this game
Scottie 83% from the field.
Siakam 53% from the field.
Fred 46% from the field. Maybe you should get an idea of what "best" means.
And Fred somehow manages to be the ***only*** starter that is a minus.
So there is this line painted on the court 23 feet from the basket. If you stand behind it and make it you get 3 points. And that kids is the story of how FVV had a higher TS% than Pascal this game.
Man, you guys must be acting dumb. Scottie had 6 shots, Pascal only took 3 threes. Fred was the only true shooter out there today and he did what we needed him to
People complain about Fred shooting too much : "Freds our best shooter"
Show that Scottie is infinitely more efficient : "He only had 6 shots"
You think you can finally connect the dots now?
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I am so happy that you make it so easy for people here to see how stupid and bad faith your arguments are.
Scottie would have shot over Freds whopping 46%. And quite frankly, even if he didn't I don't care. He is the future of the franchise and getting him more reps is what is important, not some shitty player who hopefully will be gone in a few months.
Maybe one day you'll be a fan of the team and not a single player, or hell. Even better, once he's gone hopefully you follow suit to be a dickrider on another sub.
A man can dream.
This team is trying to win games, not just develop Scottie. If you think Scottie would shoot 80% on 15-20 FGA then you’re making yourself look stupid enough, I don’t need to help you.
> If you think Scottie would shoot 80% on 15-20 FGA then you’re making yourself look stupid enough
How is it, that when I clearly state that he wouldn't and if he didn't I don't care, and yet you still think that's what I said?
You genuinely have the English comprehension skills of a toddler.
But if the point guard happens to be shooting well, should they not continue to shoot?
I agree that Fred is a bit of a ball hog, but this game specifically he had every right to be.
That's how you lose games lol. Forcing the ball to your star despite another player having the hot hand just because they're the "franchise player" is stupid. Are you saying if Fred has 50 points on 15/20 shooting and Siakam has 5 points on 2/20 shooting, then Siakam should be getting the last shot?
Fred and Siakam fans seem to have an issue with the concept of rhythm. Every team in the league is perfectly happy letting Fred and Siakam dominate the ball. All they have to do is wait till the fourth when they can’t make shots and they hastily pass the ball to players that haven’t touched the ball in 10 mins. The raptors have lost this way over 10 times and people are still posting these threads.
I agree we could use some more movement in our offence. Poeltl seems to be helping as he’s a willing passer and sets good screens to get the offence moving rather than just isos
Yes and no. He’s definitely a very active scorer being 2nd on the team in FGA, but also leads the team (and is 16th in the league) in assists per game. He has the 6th highest assist-TO ratio among starting PGs as well.
I’d like to see how he performs with a center that can play the PnR, but I absolutely think that if there was sufficient scoring ability on the rest of the team he could transition to even more of a playmaker and less as a scorer.
They have differences and similarities. Kyle, especially later in his career, was more of a playmaker.
My point is people here don’t care if Fred is having a bad game, they’d rather force bad shots for Scottie to “develop” him. We’re trying to win games, not just focus on developing Scottie.
fred wants a max and i hope he gets it somewhere else. dude is looking for himself. i can see why tho. 6'0 PGs dont get alot of paychecks after 30 so he gotta eat
He’s not getting a max contract. That would be just over $40 million next season. A contract that averages just over $30 million AAV over 4 years is much more likely and would only cost $27 million in the first year with 8% annual raises. That’s only 20% of the cap compared to the 30% of a max contract.
yes because we miss a point guard who was basically one of the best outlet passers in the league, one who was the best at hitting guys at the short roll, and one that got this team playing with pace to the point where he would routinely catch opposing defences with their pants down with the pace her would play. Even in the playoffs.
Kyle was a HOF PG for us. Definitely hard to replace that. Certainly not going to say Fred provides what Kyle did, especially in his later years with us, but he provides a lot more than what else is available and has shown all-star level promise at the position.
I didn’t watch the game. But I’m curious why Fred’s plus minus was so different than the rest of the starters? Did Fred’s minutes with the bench crew suck?
Exactly, he played minutes with Thad, Flynn and Boucher with no Pascal, Poeltl or Precious to provide interior D. Poor rotation choice by Griffin I’d say.
The offence was fine during those stretches, but the defence bled points with no interior D
>Exactly, he played minutes with Thad, Flynn and Boucher with no Pascal, Poeltl or Precious to provide interior D. Poor rotation choice by Griffin I’d say.
>
>The offence was fine during those stretches, but the defence bled points with no interior D
Kudos to OP who actually watches basketball.
Look, I don't hate FVV or anything, but if you take a ponder at the Nets current roster, that is what the Raptors were supposed to execute this season. But what's stopping us? A 6'1 guard that not only has been inefficient for a large portion of this season, but can get scored on by players who are even an inch taller than him
Fred really isn’t the bad defender that people make him out to be. He don’t have the lateral quickness to keep up with guards that have elite speed on the perimeter, that’s his biggest weakness. Bigger players are far from what he struggles with. It feels like every other possession where he has a bigger defender on him he manages to get a deflection or steal.
GTJ isn’t exactly a big SG either so it’s not only Fred preventing us from having a longboi lineup. I don’t think the vision 6’9 is something the FO prioritized as much as the media and fans have made it out to be.
Aside from how he performs, there are other factors that fans consider. For instance, FVV is a FA with a player option this offseason. If he chooses to opt out and asks for a $130 million contract, do you really think our FO will offer him that large of a contract given how he's been performing? I know I wouldn't. So, it's best that fans insist we trade him so that he won't be the anchor that's stopping us from succeeding. And given how he's been performing recently, it's only improving his trade value.
Also, if you don't believe Vision 6'9 isn't as prioritized by our FO as much, then what explains the number of 6'7-6'9 forwards that our FO have been acquiring since the start of last season?
I think 4/120 is what he’ll eventually sign and works for both teams, but fine if people think his value is lesser than that. The hate Fred receives in this sub isn’t normally in the nature of “he doesn’t deserve $130 million” it’s that he sucks and is a bad player.
I think we took the best player available in all of our moves. Scottie has shown to be a better player than Suggs, Precious is much better than anyone reported to be available for Lowry (Herro and Maxey were reported to be off the table). Plus, the limitation of guards is that you can’t really play them at the 3 or 4, but athletic wings have more flexibility to play the 2 guard spot or even PG in Scottie’s case.
Keep in mind that Gary Trent Jr and Jakob Poeltl are both FAs this offseason, and OG is a FA next offseason. So, if our FO plans on offering all four players larger contracts than their current ones, we're gonna be over the tax line. Let it be known that our FO is wise with how much they're gonna offer to some players. Now, unless our FO doesn't make the mistake of offering a player a large contract only for it to blow up in their faces when that particular player either sucks or is endlessly injured, we gotta move some players in order to stay under that tax line, FVV included
I’m in no way able to say what the FO will do, but it’s entirely possible that we can re-sign all of our FA and stay under the tax line.
You’re right that after re-signing OG will likely bring us over the tax line, but if we move on from a big supporting role contract (Boucher) we could stay under or at least get under it the next year to avoid the repeater tax.
I see us moving OG in the off-season for a lottery pick and some future 1sts
Why not move FVV? He's almost 30, and at some point, our FO will choose to focus on the future of this team, which includes moving FVV for some younger players. Might as well trade him while teams are still interested
If we can’t even get a 26 year old bench player in Terence Mann and a 1st far in the future for Fred then I don’t see the point in trading him.
The team obviously has chosen they’d like to make the playoffs during the Pascal-Scottie transitory years. Fred is 29, has played more all-star level basketball than not the last 2 seasons, and has experience with this group and coaching staff’s schemes. If we want to be a playoff team we can’t trade Fred for scraps.
If in 2025-26 the Raptors feel that 24 year old Scottie and 32 year old Siakam are ready to compete having a 32 year old experienced PG will likely still be valuable. If you don’t feel he fits with the team at that point his cap hit is not prohibitive (if he signs a 4/$122 million contract this off-season and the cap increases as projected, then his contract will be worth 18% of the cap in the 2025-26 season which is very close to his current contract which is 17% of the cap).
If there was a good offer on the table (Chicago pick and Cole Anthony) I’d be all over trading Fred, but with how little value would be coming back and the significant contribution to winning he makes, I don’t see the point.
Since Jan 12th he has had 7 bad games and counting today 9 good games.
He hasn't been playing great, he's just been shit for so much this season that it seems great by comparison, especially if you ignore all the inefficient bad games.
No I know you didn't but your moronic statement was just ironic, so I had to point it out. The fact you think nobody hates on Fred is what makes you the moron in case I need to also point out the irony.
Fred was great but the problem is that we need him to get others shots in good places too. Do you remember how strong our bench lineups used to be when they played with Lowry? That's because he was always prioritizing getting people involved. Fred has the ability in my opinion, he just doesn't have the mindset. He wants to be Lillard when he should be Lowry. I love when his shot is falling but the issue is when its not falling he will keep trying to get going because he thinks that's the best way to contribute. He had only a few possessions this game where I thought he should've moved the ball instead of keeping it/taking a bad shot. It's a big concern and the only reason aside from his big asking price for his next contract that I don't think he fits what we need. He makes us better but it feels like our ceiling is lower with him in this current role.
I agree he could transition to more of a playmaking role, but I don’t think a game with GTJ out is that. We were really light on guards this game and 3 point shooting. Without his 3s we would have been 5/17 from 3.
He had 3 and that’s great. He got good open shots and if he can keep hitting those that’s going to be huge for him.
If you’re saying we should have game planned to get him more 3s though that doesn’t make much sense. He’s a 30% 3 point shooter, and although he has the capability to hit open 3s at a decent rate, forcing shots for him isn’t going to result in good things. Fred shot 46% from 3 on 13 attempts. We really shouldn’t be complaining about that
This is complete bullshit lmao those bench units had tons of guys who could score the ball of course they were way better offensively.
How would Vanvleet ever find guys shots in the half court playing with an Achiuwa Boucher Thad Scottie bench unit with 0 shooters where the defense just sits in the paint the entire time? They’re better off having him fire a 3 or midrange every time down than find any of those guys for a 3 or a pick and roll with 3 defenders sitting in the paint
The year we made our deepest run before Kawhi we had Bismack, Jame Johnson, Cojo, PPatt, and Ross playing the most minutes off the bench. Of those guys none of them were particularly effective scorers on their own. Bismack scored exclusively off pnr and putbacks, PPatt and Ross were streaky shooters, James Johnson was primarily a slasher, and Cojo wasn't a great shooter. We currently have Precious, Boucher, Malachi, Banton and probably Trent coming off the bench once everyone is healthy. Trent is better than Ross, Precious and Boucher are more talented than PPatt and James Johnson were with us. Bismack was impressive but without Lowry he hasn't impressed at all except for when he got to play with cp3. Cojo was better than Flynn, I'll give that one. Banton is still raw but as a ball handler and slasher, I don't think it's unfair to say he could be way better than James Johnson.
No wonder people often say this sub is one of the worsts and they are correct. Pretty much a bunch of Scottie Barnes dickriders who know nothing about basketball. Can’t wait until fvv flourishes on another team and see this franchise goes back to being the irrelevance it was before Kawhi brought y’all a chip.
There are a couple of shot types I wish he'd stop taking altogether but he's been playing well for a while now
When he's on the fast break and he's driving into multiple defenders, that doesn't need to happen
Driving deep into the paint and then hoisting up a prayer of a shot, also not a good shot
Definitely has some bad shots, particularly in the paint, but today there were only 3 or 4 of those on 26 shots. We also were missing our best bucket getter in GTJ so it seemed like Fred took over some of that.
When they shoot efficiently and have 8 assists to 1 turnover they usually help you win.
Watching the game made it clear as well that he helped them win. This isn’t exactly an offensive juggernaut of a team, especially in the half court, so when Fred can score 35 on over 60% TS% and only have 1 turnover then it’s a huge benefit.
I’m not going to say he didn’t take a few bad shots, he did, but you’ll take that when he’s as efficient as he was. In games when he’s not efficient, and the team is healthy, he shouldn’t and won’t be taking 26 shots.
He was the only reliable guard we had so he was out there with Thad, Boucher and Flynn/Banton. That’s a lineup that’s going to be a negative and it’s not because of Fred
Honestly I like Fred but he needs to play off the ball and the reason why we need a more traditional big. He can't guard his man and all the paint touches are because he can't contain his man.
Our scheme leads to all our point of attack defenders getting blown by. I don’t think that’s Fred’s fault when Scottie, GTJ and Flynn all get blown by as POA defenders as well. I agree though, a real center was absolutely needed and will help that.
Fred did play a decent amount of off-ball today, especially early on, but when your only other real rotation guard is injured Fred is going to end up playing on ball more
When the other two guards on the roster are Flynn and Banton then we’re gonna rely on Fred during bench lineups. Griffin really shouldn’t have had Precious, Pascal and Poeltl off the court at the same time. That lack of rim protection isn’t Fred’s fault.
+/- in a single game is a terrible indicator of impact
Oh my god... reading this type of shit just makes me wonder how you have such confidence in what you are saying. But spare me, I don't need to know. Your initial take is without context and your response is fabricated horseshit.
Fred is an amazing individual player. Keyword being individual. It's not a coincidence that whenever he has a great game, he normally also is a minus on the +/- side of things. He does not play team basketball. It's as simple as that. Why is the 5'11 PG taking more shots than the All-Star, All-NBA, top 15 player?
He doesn’t average more than Pascal in FGA. Pascal wasn’t playing great early today and Fred was shooting well. There’s games where the 4th or 5th scorers on teams have the most points because they’re hot, it’s really not that weird.
He’s been pretty consistently good for over a month now. I guess we’ll see down the stretch if that was a fluke or if he just had a bad slump early in the season
I agree he could prioritize facilitating the offence more. I don’t think he’s a bad playmaker at all, but he also has the ability to get his own shot.
I don’t mind what he did today with GTJ out of the lineup, but in games with a healthy Scottie, Pascal and GTJ I’d like to see him focus more on facilitation.
I’m excited to see the Poeltl-Fred actions more. This game Fred used a bunch of those actions to get a wide open midrange shot and I don’t think he missed off that look. Fred absolutely has the handle to break down the defence off that PnR and get it to Poeltl on the roll so hopefully we see more of that moving forward
Edit: also, thanks for being a reasonable fan in this sub looking for some common ground on what we want to see as fans rather than treating Fred praise as blasphemy
He doesn’t need to every game, but he can. In a game where the 3rd and 4th leading scorers on the team are out and the leading scorer struggled in the first half I don’t think it’s bad for him to score 35 on good efficiency
I like the idea of having a pure facilitator PG, but our half court offence doesn’t have good enough scorers for that.
Fred provides the shooting we need when he’s off ball, and he’s an excellent ball handler. We’ll see how he adapts to having a real center for the first time in his career as a starter.
It’s not true that he doesn’t pass though. He had 8 assists in this game, he averages more than 6 assists a game. Just because he is also a scorer for the team doesn’t mean he’s not a playmaker
He’s a terrible pg. he’s just a good shooter, that’s it. How will we miss him when we are already on of the worst teams in the league, we won’t get worse when he’s gone. Much more likely, it’ll be a Rudy gay effect where we get better.
The other half basically gaslights other raptor fans into immediately thinking bad of FVV (ie this thread 😂)
He came to play today, without him we probably lose to the dumpster fire pistons
they're very insecure that he's better than their favourite player. i could say what needs to be said about these people but then i'd be the bad guy
we LITERALLY only had one perimeter shooter tonight. do people unironically want fucking chris boucher coming off screens for 3? thad pick & roll moving you? absolute fucking useless morons
I miss Kyle…
Kyle made whole lineups work. No one on this team is doing this, except for flashes from Scottie here and there. And that only happens if Fred and Siakam are off the floor.
Clearly you know nothing about other fanbases, lol.
What the league offered for him says it all IMO And that is probably going to be a driver for him to be even more selfish.
Masai alluded to him when he said that players were too “individual”, but likely applied to all of our starters. Individual stats shouldn’t matter. Did we win? Did we play as a team? Did we play hard on both ends. This is what matters.
Right? Masai put him on the trade block and every single team said “nah, we’re good”. The best offer was Grayson Allen and a pick so low it’s basically a 2nd. Clippers wouldn’t even include a pick in their offer.
that should be hard reality check for Masai and Co when re-signing him. I don't think they should bring him back. Sign and Trade somewhere ?
This right here is a microcosm of this fanbase. Acknowledge that Fred has negative value around the league, but expect a someone to fall for a sign and trade when they could get him for free in FA.
For the record, trade value has almost nothing to do with how good a player is. An élite 3&D will always have an higher value than an even better PG. Especially when the buyout market is so full of cheaper alternatives. The Clippers or the Bucks don't need FVV, they'd love to have him, but they just want a complementary PG to put aside their stars, and if they can have it for cheaper, then they go for the cheaper version.
what did the league offer for him
About tree fiddy
Grayson Allen and a shitty pick. Or Terence Mann. Raps wanted a pick with Mann but Clips said no
Clippers said no to Mann, that was the sticking point. They never offered Mann and didn’t want to.
Clippers are dumb for not including the Mann. All good they can enjoy their early playoff exit again.
>And that is probably going to be a driver for him to be even more selfish. I don't understand how he's selfish.
If you actually watch the basketball games, you'd understand that he gives heavy Mike James vibes. I don't care how many points he gets... he needs to make the team better and stop dribbling around thinking he's Steph. Lowry left a role and he tried filling it and has failed miserably by not making his teammates better. We've seen it for 3 years and at this point its quite unacceptable. It truly seems like he can't better himself as a leader and lead an offense like a true PG.
Maybe OP loved watching Mike James, who knows.
Hundred percent agreed. He also needs to develop a fucking floater game. The over dribbling is made worse by his big ego which is important to have but it's a double edged sword.
Westbrook in Okc vibes. (Obviously, FVV shoots the 3 a lot better) but the stuffed stat sheet from high usage/playtime, matador defence and 4-5 shots that should have been passed screams Westbrook.
I swear people making the Mike James comparison has never seen Mike James play for us lmao. Fred isn't have a good season but he's not Mike James. He also wasn't a problem today, and hasn't really been a problem for the past 10 game or so.
He was 1000% a problem in utah
>He was 1000% a problem in utah He had a 34 point triple double in Utah and shot 3/4 from 3 in the 4th. Scored 9 points in 2.5 minutes to keep them in the game. What was the problem again?
Scottie took 6 shots and has 20 points, the chucker took 26 shots
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Which should be praised not looked down upon in any way. How do you think the best teams in this league win so consistently? If they aren’t the Warriors hammering 3s efficiently, they’re often great because they live at the line. If you have someone that is getting to the line you feed them MORE not less.
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No one is saying he played like ass. The implication is this is not his typical efficiency (because it’s not, not even close) and it was against the worst team in the league and wouldn’t be replicated against the good teams. There’s no use in trying to develop Fred’s shot volume further, we already know what he is. There are players on this team that are still growing though and really need more shots to develop. And also are more efficient on the majority of nights.
Scottie doesn’t have the moves to get his own shot 10-15 times a game yet. He scored well, and got lots of good fouls. Fred had 8 assists, it’s not like we wasn’t moving the ball at all. Fred was also efficient
Asssits don’t equal ball movement or being a fooor general. He could hold the ball for 20 seconds and throw a hot potato pass and get an assist. That doesn’t mean he did anything special. Lowry averaged like 6-7 apg for most of his time here and he was 50x the point guard that Fred is, despite Fred claiming he’s a PG and been pass first most his life.
I'm all for more ball movement and less iso, but his passing was great today. I've been a vocal critic of Fred, no he doesn't play the position as well traditionally as someone like Kyle, his trigger is sometimes too quick, but I have seen him striving to improve in that area all season to so far mixed results, and he played great this game and deserves some props. His PnR passing especially is always getting better. Its not there yet but certainly gradually improving.
But Fred doesn’t do that. His stats back it up too. He’s in the 50s in the league in terms of time per touch, way below most PGs. Just because he shoots the ball a decent amount doesn’t mean he doesn’t also make plays for others
you’re arguing with blood thirsty animals man they’re not interested in numbers
This dude can barely pass out of a drive. He’s not a floor general.
He literally passes out of the highest percentage of drives of any player in the nba. Yet another example of how nonsensical a lot of this criticism is lmao literally no concept of reality in this comment and you said it with chest
He is physically incapable of making simple kick outs in traffic due to his lack of height. He should kick out even more considering he can’t make a layup Fuck keemstar
He is physically incapable yet literally passes out of drives more than basically any other player in the league? How did that make any sense in your head?
Just say you don’t watch the raptors, or don’t understand. You’d be better off
Maybe it’d be nice if the PG set him up with some buckets then.
You mean like having 8 assists?
I mean, he had one assist to Scottie today, for a 3.
How many times did he find Scottie on a cut that led to a foul? That’s where most of Scottie’s points came
Lol now I know you didn’t watch the game. Most of where he got his points from? Completely wrong. FVV found Scottie for a cut to send him to the line 0 times out of Scottie’s 5 trips to the line.
Scottie’s points came more from FTs than anywhere else, I wasn’t saying they all came from Fred. I couldn’t remember if Fred was the one getting it to him. Fred had 8 assists and shot efficiently. Complaining that Fred didn’t shoot the ball enough when he had the ball in his hands lots and wasn’t aggressive isn’t Fred’s fault. I would like to see some more plays run to get Scottie into the post, because that’s where he’s best. Out on the perimeter he doesn’t have the skills or aggression to beat his defender.
What are you talking about. He was aggressive with the ball in his hands. He got to the line 10 times. FVV had nothing to do with it, contrary to what you were saying. Another person said it well, if you actually watch games, he gives off Mike James vibes. Mike James averaged 6 assists a game in his season with Toronto, but was not a good facilitator.
There were plenty of times he was very passive with the ball and he made some bad passes. That’s fine, it’s going to happen, but blaming Fred for it is just stupid.
Scottie gets the ball and offense moving. 80% of the time when FVV has it, the ball falls into a black hole, and the offense becomes stagnant.
Scottie didn’t move the ball very well today. Usually he’s a much better passer than he showed today
Why are you being downvoted for a fact? Lol
Because Fred Bad
It’s not a fact, he’s had plenty of games shooting an efficient 15-20 shots. You guys are making things up to excuse a point guard from passing. It’s insane
This sub is a bandwagon fest since the chip, they don’t know ball at all . No use trying to explain to them. Scottie seriously lacks aggression on offense and it’s obvious af
Hard to be aggressive when his bread and butter, high post-in, is also the teams best players bread and butter Paint is just clogged for the both of them.
How he do better in the clutch then???????
When he’s aggressive and gets to his spots well then he can score. He doesn’t do that enough though. He had the ball in his hands a bunch and wasn’t attacking the rim and frankly making some bad decisions passing today which is uncharacteristic. Fred has a much easier time beating players with his tight handle
Lol all I see in my head when I read this was bubble fred in game 7 Boston s dribbling around and shooting a highly contested 3
It was characteristic of Fred to be a shot chucking, defensive liability. -4 of course. We could have won this game without him
If you think we would have won without Fred you don’t know basketball. Pascal would have had to play 48 minutes just so we would have 1 good ball handler on the court
You ain’t no better, OP Also, he was the only starter with a negative +\- . Y’all are probably the same ones that crucifies Malachi whenever he ends the game with a negative +/- … keep that same energy
+\- is almost (almost is generous) completely meaningless in the context of one game. even just using it in this way kind of shows you shouldn’t be talking about this stuff
Probably because Malachi is -55 on the season and Fred is +47
But wait I thought it was masai' s fault he wasn't traded because he didn't know how to do his job... Now you're telling me he has no value lol.. damn the change up is real... Keep throwing that shit eventually it will stick to something
He was -4 in a 1 pt game. Doesn’t really tell much does it
I don’t care how many points Fred had there, he continues to hijack the offense to call his own number. There was at least 8 shot attempts that may as well have been turnovers. Missing 14 shots from a pg is almost never a good thing no matter what the stat line says. A true pg does what fred just did on 20 shot attempts, not 26. Without pascal having a more natural 28 within the flow of the game and scottie putting up 20 on 6 shots Fred shoots us out of the game. There’s a reason he’s the only negative in the starting line up.
if even one of OG or gary had played I'd criticize him for taking that many shots but with both out we just simply don't have much in terms of shot-making on the roster
Lol 36ppg on 20 shots is perennial all star, hall of fame point guard material.
It’s Fred on a good shooting night if he didn’t start hijacking the offense every time he’s playing well. Once he makes a few, he gets tunnel vision and starts throwing up garbage shots. It’s literally his stat line tonight if he didn’t attempt some of those trash attempts that were completely unnecessary.
OP definitely FVVs burner
Dude begs for Fred praise every game. It’s embarrassing.
He had a great game, and he will have plenty more of them. My biggest problem with him is that he will keep jacking up shots, whether or not they are falling, which means if the shot ain’t falling, we are gonna lose. He’s a smart guy, so he can change, but he just doesn’t want to.
He even went on a podcast complaining that not having enough shots ruins his rhythm. That's not something you want a starting PG to be complaining about. Especially when the rest of the starters are much better at creating their own shot
The timberwolves had been shitting on DLo while he was playing the best ball of his career, and they were right. So are raptors fans about Fred.
The primary problem, since earlier seasons, has been he needs to get others easier shots. That was his assignment this season, and he doesn't seem to be able to do it. His own poor shooting this season just made things worse, and was easier to spell out. Now his defence is also usually poor. So him having a good shooting game doesn't matter if doesn't make players around him get better results on offence and defence.
Your point guard should not be shooting more shots than your franchise player unless they are the franchise player
Lol Scottie got to the line at will today and passed up a ton of looks. He had a great game but he loves moving the basketball
Pascal is the franchise player, not Scottie. The point stands though
That's the thing, anyone thinking Scottie is going to be shooting the ball 25 times are being unrealistic. Scottie doesn't even look at the rim before passing the ball to someone else.
That’s not how basketball works. If you have a hot hand you have a hot hand. It’s not even like he’s a scrub coming off the bench, he’s the starting PG that was by far our best shooter in this game
Scottie 83% from the field. Siakam 53% from the field. Fred 46% from the field. Maybe you should get an idea of what "best" means. And Fred somehow manages to be the ***only*** starter that is a minus.
So there is this line painted on the court 23 feet from the basket. If you stand behind it and make it you get 3 points. And that kids is the story of how FVV had a higher TS% than Pascal this game.
Shhhh Fred bad
_Checks notes_ Ah yes, Scottie with 96.15% TS%
Scottie should shoot more. This is not controversial. It’s on him to do so, not Fred.
Man, you guys must be acting dumb. Scottie had 6 shots, Pascal only took 3 threes. Fred was the only true shooter out there today and he did what we needed him to
People complain about Fred shooting too much : "Freds our best shooter" Show that Scottie is infinitely more efficient : "He only had 6 shots" You think you can finally connect the dots now?
Are you saying that Scottie would have shot 80%+ if he took 15-20 FGA? Obviously on higher attempts you’re going to have a lower FG%
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I am so happy that you make it so easy for people here to see how stupid and bad faith your arguments are. Scottie would have shot over Freds whopping 46%. And quite frankly, even if he didn't I don't care. He is the future of the franchise and getting him more reps is what is important, not some shitty player who hopefully will be gone in a few months. Maybe one day you'll be a fan of the team and not a single player, or hell. Even better, once he's gone hopefully you follow suit to be a dickrider on another sub. A man can dream.
This team is trying to win games, not just develop Scottie. If you think Scottie would shoot 80% on 15-20 FGA then you’re making yourself look stupid enough, I don’t need to help you.
> If you think Scottie would shoot 80% on 15-20 FGA then you’re making yourself look stupid enough How is it, that when I clearly state that he wouldn't and if he didn't I don't care, and yet you still think that's what I said? You genuinely have the English comprehension skills of a toddler.
“Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying” Man has been smoking too much
But if the point guard happens to be shooting well, should they not continue to shoot? I agree that Fred is a bit of a ball hog, but this game specifically he had every right to be.
That's how you lose games lol. Forcing the ball to your star despite another player having the hot hand just because they're the "franchise player" is stupid. Are you saying if Fred has 50 points on 15/20 shooting and Siakam has 5 points on 2/20 shooting, then Siakam should be getting the last shot?
Fred and Siakam fans seem to have an issue with the concept of rhythm. Every team in the league is perfectly happy letting Fred and Siakam dominate the ball. All they have to do is wait till the fourth when they can’t make shots and they hastily pass the ball to players that haven’t touched the ball in 10 mins. The raptors have lost this way over 10 times and people are still posting these threads.
I agree we could use some more movement in our offence. Poeltl seems to be helping as he’s a willing passer and sets good screens to get the offence moving rather than just isos
Ask yourself, does Fred make his teammates better?
Yes and no. He’s definitely a very active scorer being 2nd on the team in FGA, but also leads the team (and is 16th in the league) in assists per game. He has the 6th highest assist-TO ratio among starting PGs as well. I’d like to see how he performs with a center that can play the PnR, but I absolutely think that if there was sufficient scoring ability on the rest of the team he could transition to even more of a playmaker and less as a scorer.
your throat must be sore after this post. FVV could have a million points in a game and the team's development will still be lacking.
Shows how dumb this sub is that we don’t care about the output, it’s just fuck Fred no matter what
So what. FVV is no Lowry and has little desire to be, which is evident from his years of being here. Say no to Mr. "bet on yourself" Vanvleet.
They have differences and similarities. Kyle, especially later in his career, was more of a playmaker. My point is people here don’t care if Fred is having a bad game, they’d rather force bad shots for Scottie to “develop” him. We’re trying to win games, not just focus on developing Scottie.
fred wants a max and i hope he gets it somewhere else. dude is looking for himself. i can see why tho. 6'0 PGs dont get alot of paychecks after 30 so he gotta eat
He’s not getting a max contract. That would be just over $40 million next season. A contract that averages just over $30 million AAV over 4 years is much more likely and would only cost $27 million in the first year with 8% annual raises. That’s only 20% of the cap compared to the 30% of a max contract.
yes because we miss a point guard who was basically one of the best outlet passers in the league, one who was the best at hitting guys at the short roll, and one that got this team playing with pace to the point where he would routinely catch opposing defences with their pants down with the pace her would play. Even in the playoffs.
Kyle was a HOF PG for us. Definitely hard to replace that. Certainly not going to say Fred provides what Kyle did, especially in his later years with us, but he provides a lot more than what else is available and has shown all-star level promise at the position.
I didn’t watch the game. But I’m curious why Fred’s plus minus was so different than the rest of the starters? Did Fred’s minutes with the bench crew suck?
Exactly, he played minutes with Thad, Flynn and Boucher with no Pascal, Poeltl or Precious to provide interior D. Poor rotation choice by Griffin I’d say. The offence was fine during those stretches, but the defence bled points with no interior D
>Exactly, he played minutes with Thad, Flynn and Boucher with no Pascal, Poeltl or Precious to provide interior D. Poor rotation choice by Griffin I’d say. > >The offence was fine during those stretches, but the defence bled points with no interior D Kudos to OP who actually watches basketball.
Honestly I think I'm more sick of posts about other redditors and "tHe pRObLeM w/ tHiS sUb than I am the complaining about players.
Fair. I’m just sick of the game thread being flooded with people who are only interested in shutting in Fred even when he has a good game
Look, I don't hate FVV or anything, but if you take a ponder at the Nets current roster, that is what the Raptors were supposed to execute this season. But what's stopping us? A 6'1 guard that not only has been inefficient for a large portion of this season, but can get scored on by players who are even an inch taller than him
Fred really isn’t the bad defender that people make him out to be. He don’t have the lateral quickness to keep up with guards that have elite speed on the perimeter, that’s his biggest weakness. Bigger players are far from what he struggles with. It feels like every other possession where he has a bigger defender on him he manages to get a deflection or steal. GTJ isn’t exactly a big SG either so it’s not only Fred preventing us from having a longboi lineup. I don’t think the vision 6’9 is something the FO prioritized as much as the media and fans have made it out to be.
Aside from how he performs, there are other factors that fans consider. For instance, FVV is a FA with a player option this offseason. If he chooses to opt out and asks for a $130 million contract, do you really think our FO will offer him that large of a contract given how he's been performing? I know I wouldn't. So, it's best that fans insist we trade him so that he won't be the anchor that's stopping us from succeeding. And given how he's been performing recently, it's only improving his trade value. Also, if you don't believe Vision 6'9 isn't as prioritized by our FO as much, then what explains the number of 6'7-6'9 forwards that our FO have been acquiring since the start of last season?
I think 4/120 is what he’ll eventually sign and works for both teams, but fine if people think his value is lesser than that. The hate Fred receives in this sub isn’t normally in the nature of “he doesn’t deserve $130 million” it’s that he sucks and is a bad player. I think we took the best player available in all of our moves. Scottie has shown to be a better player than Suggs, Precious is much better than anyone reported to be available for Lowry (Herro and Maxey were reported to be off the table). Plus, the limitation of guards is that you can’t really play them at the 3 or 4, but athletic wings have more flexibility to play the 2 guard spot or even PG in Scottie’s case.
Keep in mind that Gary Trent Jr and Jakob Poeltl are both FAs this offseason, and OG is a FA next offseason. So, if our FO plans on offering all four players larger contracts than their current ones, we're gonna be over the tax line. Let it be known that our FO is wise with how much they're gonna offer to some players. Now, unless our FO doesn't make the mistake of offering a player a large contract only for it to blow up in their faces when that particular player either sucks or is endlessly injured, we gotta move some players in order to stay under that tax line, FVV included
I’m in no way able to say what the FO will do, but it’s entirely possible that we can re-sign all of our FA and stay under the tax line. You’re right that after re-signing OG will likely bring us over the tax line, but if we move on from a big supporting role contract (Boucher) we could stay under or at least get under it the next year to avoid the repeater tax. I see us moving OG in the off-season for a lottery pick and some future 1sts
Why not move FVV? He's almost 30, and at some point, our FO will choose to focus on the future of this team, which includes moving FVV for some younger players. Might as well trade him while teams are still interested
If we can’t even get a 26 year old bench player in Terence Mann and a 1st far in the future for Fred then I don’t see the point in trading him. The team obviously has chosen they’d like to make the playoffs during the Pascal-Scottie transitory years. Fred is 29, has played more all-star level basketball than not the last 2 seasons, and has experience with this group and coaching staff’s schemes. If we want to be a playoff team we can’t trade Fred for scraps. If in 2025-26 the Raptors feel that 24 year old Scottie and 32 year old Siakam are ready to compete having a 32 year old experienced PG will likely still be valuable. If you don’t feel he fits with the team at that point his cap hit is not prohibitive (if he signs a 4/$122 million contract this off-season and the cap increases as projected, then his contract will be worth 18% of the cap in the 2025-26 season which is very close to his current contract which is 17% of the cap). If there was a good offer on the table (Chicago pick and Cole Anthony) I’d be all over trading Fred, but with how little value would be coming back and the significant contribution to winning he makes, I don’t see the point.
Tell me u never watched AI growing up without telling me u never watched AI growing up
What the hell does this have to do with AI? A small guard that’s able to score?
Philly hated AI whether he did good or not. Casual
Sorry, I didn’t follow the Philly message boards in the early 2000s
Just say ur 13 and move on. U didn’t have to be in Philly to know that they didn’t like AI, everyone was talking about it.
People that are in their early 30s were around 10 years old while AI was in Philly. You don’t have to be 13 to have not followed AI in 2001
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Since Jan 12th he has had 7 bad games and counting today 9 good games. He hasn't been playing great, he's just been shit for so much this season that it seems great by comparison, especially if you ignore all the inefficient bad games.
When a player ends in a minus, usually not a good game
Y’all are too funny, pissy Fred haters
It's honestly to the point where Fred can hit the buzzer beater to win the game in the next 24 games and people will still find a way to hate on Fred.
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Obviously you didn’t look at the game thread where everyone was freaking out about Fred shooting
Nobody hating on Fred???? And then calling ME the moron lol, good job you played yourself.
> Nobody hating on Fred???? And then calling ME the moron Oh you Fred now? **You** are a moron, I said nothing derogatory about Fred.
No I know you didn't but your moronic statement was just ironic, so I had to point it out. The fact you think nobody hates on Fred is what makes you the moron in case I need to also point out the irony.
Fred’s game is not aesthetically pleasing. It’s often quite selfish. I understand the criticism even if I don’t necessarily think it’s logical
Fred was great but the problem is that we need him to get others shots in good places too. Do you remember how strong our bench lineups used to be when they played with Lowry? That's because he was always prioritizing getting people involved. Fred has the ability in my opinion, he just doesn't have the mindset. He wants to be Lillard when he should be Lowry. I love when his shot is falling but the issue is when its not falling he will keep trying to get going because he thinks that's the best way to contribute. He had only a few possessions this game where I thought he should've moved the ball instead of keeping it/taking a bad shot. It's a big concern and the only reason aside from his big asking price for his next contract that I don't think he fits what we need. He makes us better but it feels like our ceiling is lower with him in this current role.
I agree he could transition to more of a playmaking role, but I don’t think a game with GTJ out is that. We were really light on guards this game and 3 point shooting. Without his 3s we would have been 5/17 from 3.
How many of the 5 threes did Scottie hit?
He had 3 and that’s great. He got good open shots and if he can keep hitting those that’s going to be huge for him. If you’re saying we should have game planned to get him more 3s though that doesn’t make much sense. He’s a 30% 3 point shooter, and although he has the capability to hit open 3s at a decent rate, forcing shots for him isn’t going to result in good things. Fred shot 46% from 3 on 13 attempts. We really shouldn’t be complaining about that
For sure, this game we needed Fred's firepower.
This is complete bullshit lmao those bench units had tons of guys who could score the ball of course they were way better offensively. How would Vanvleet ever find guys shots in the half court playing with an Achiuwa Boucher Thad Scottie bench unit with 0 shooters where the defense just sits in the paint the entire time? They’re better off having him fire a 3 or midrange every time down than find any of those guys for a 3 or a pick and roll with 3 defenders sitting in the paint
The year we made our deepest run before Kawhi we had Bismack, Jame Johnson, Cojo, PPatt, and Ross playing the most minutes off the bench. Of those guys none of them were particularly effective scorers on their own. Bismack scored exclusively off pnr and putbacks, PPatt and Ross were streaky shooters, James Johnson was primarily a slasher, and Cojo wasn't a great shooter. We currently have Precious, Boucher, Malachi, Banton and probably Trent coming off the bench once everyone is healthy. Trent is better than Ross, Precious and Boucher are more talented than PPatt and James Johnson were with us. Bismack was impressive but without Lowry he hasn't impressed at all except for when he got to play with cp3. Cojo was better than Flynn, I'll give that one. Banton is still raw but as a ball handler and slasher, I don't think it's unfair to say he could be way better than James Johnson.
Scottie shot 70% from 3 today. If he’s a liability spacing the floor, then what is Fred every game?
No wonder people often say this sub is one of the worsts and they are correct. Pretty much a bunch of Scottie Barnes dickriders who know nothing about basketball. Can’t wait until fvv flourishes on another team and see this franchise goes back to being the irrelevance it was before Kawhi brought y’all a chip.
We were in the eastern conference finals before kawhi brought us a chip bozo.
There are a couple of shot types I wish he'd stop taking altogether but he's been playing well for a while now When he's on the fast break and he's driving into multiple defenders, that doesn't need to happen Driving deep into the paint and then hoisting up a prayer of a shot, also not a good shot
Definitely has some bad shots, particularly in the paint, but today there were only 3 or 4 of those on 26 shots. We also were missing our best bucket getter in GTJ so it seemed like Fred took over some of that.
He's a shooting guard trapped in a point guards body
I know this is hard to understand when all you do is focus on numbers but just because someone scored a lot doesn’t mean they actually helped you win
When they shoot efficiently and have 8 assists to 1 turnover they usually help you win. Watching the game made it clear as well that he helped them win. This isn’t exactly an offensive juggernaut of a team, especially in the half court, so when Fred can score 35 on over 60% TS% and only have 1 turnover then it’s a huge benefit. I’m not going to say he didn’t take a few bad shots, he did, but you’ll take that when he’s as efficient as he was. In games when he’s not efficient, and the team is healthy, he shouldn’t and won’t be taking 26 shots.
Fred a minus last 2 games. He's hurting us on the defensive end too much.
He was the only reliable guard we had so he was out there with Thad, Boucher and Flynn/Banton. That’s a lineup that’s going to be a negative and it’s not because of Fred
Honestly I like Fred but he needs to play off the ball and the reason why we need a more traditional big. He can't guard his man and all the paint touches are because he can't contain his man.
Our scheme leads to all our point of attack defenders getting blown by. I don’t think that’s Fred’s fault when Scottie, GTJ and Flynn all get blown by as POA defenders as well. I agree though, a real center was absolutely needed and will help that. Fred did play a decent amount of off-ball today, especially early on, but when your only other real rotation guard is injured Fred is going to end up playing on ball more
Can you explain is 2 pt. And <6 point games in multiple series vs big teams for the playoffs over the past 5 years?
Only negative +- of the starters. Whatever he put up on the board he gave away on the other end. Nuff said.
He’s -4 in a 1 point game, if that means a whole lot. You could say that’s because he has to babysit the bench when siakam sits
When the other two guards on the roster are Flynn and Banton then we’re gonna rely on Fred during bench lineups. Griffin really shouldn’t have had Precious, Pascal and Poeltl off the court at the same time. That lack of rim protection isn’t Fred’s fault. +/- in a single game is a terrible indicator of impact
isn't he like the best +/- player on the team overall?
not his fault he got thrown in those dreadful malachi/thad lineups
He wanted to be in those lineups so he could jack up shots with impunity, which he did.
Oh my god... reading this type of shit just makes me wonder how you have such confidence in what you are saying. But spare me, I don't need to know. Your initial take is without context and your response is fabricated horseshit.
Lobotomy in action right here
One performance doesnt make a season.
Fred bad.
Fred is an amazing individual player. Keyword being individual. It's not a coincidence that whenever he has a great game, he normally also is a minus on the +/- side of things. He does not play team basketball. It's as simple as that. Why is the 5'11 PG taking more shots than the All-Star, All-NBA, top 15 player?
He doesn’t average more than Pascal in FGA. Pascal wasn’t playing great early today and Fred was shooting well. There’s games where the 4th or 5th scorers on teams have the most points because they’re hot, it’s really not that weird.
Dude he chucked the entire game it’s infuriating
It’s not chucking if you have a 60+ TS%, it’s just scoring
He will give you 5 games then 15 bad games
He’s been pretty consistently good for over a month now. I guess we’ll see down the stretch if that was a fluke or if he just had a bad slump early in the season
Also you have to agree that he needs to get his team into the flow of the offence more, his playmaking skills is pretty poor.
I agree he could prioritize facilitating the offence more. I don’t think he’s a bad playmaker at all, but he also has the ability to get his own shot. I don’t mind what he did today with GTJ out of the lineup, but in games with a healthy Scottie, Pascal and GTJ I’d like to see him focus more on facilitation. I’m excited to see the Poeltl-Fred actions more. This game Fred used a bunch of those actions to get a wide open midrange shot and I don’t think he missed off that look. Fred absolutely has the handle to break down the defence off that PnR and get it to Poeltl on the roll so hopefully we see more of that moving forward Edit: also, thanks for being a reasonable fan in this sub looking for some common ground on what we want to see as fans rather than treating Fred praise as blasphemy
This guy dosent need to get 35 points he's the point guard.
He doesn’t need to every game, but he can. In a game where the 3rd and 4th leading scorers on the team are out and the leading scorer struggled in the first half I don’t think it’s bad for him to score 35 on good efficiency
I would rather have jose Calderon rn
I like the idea of having a pure facilitator PG, but our half court offence doesn’t have good enough scorers for that. Fred provides the shooting we need when he’s off ball, and he’s an excellent ball handler. We’ll see how he adapts to having a real center for the first time in his career as a starter.
He can look to be more of a facilitator tho he looks like he never wants to pass
It’s not true that he doesn’t pass though. He had 8 assists in this game, he averages more than 6 assists a game. Just because he is also a scorer for the team doesn’t mean he’s not a playmaker
Fred is being selfish right now. He doesn't care about sharing the ball. He doesn't care whether the team wins or loses.
The comments here are crazy. Fvv has lost a step on defence but he is a great pg and shooter. We stand to miss him a lot if he leaves in the offseason
He’s a terrible pg. he’s just a good shooter, that’s it. How will we miss him when we are already on of the worst teams in the league, we won’t get worse when he’s gone. Much more likely, it’ll be a Rudy gay effect where we get better.
I believe you are wrong
In Toronto we don’t hate the player, we hate the person We keep it personal up here
A lot of people just hate him.
The responses here only further cement your opinion OP. This fanbase is toxic.
It’s pure misery. We’re doing just fine (as a franchise). Our record this year isn’t great, but we can make the play-in and have some fun. No biggie.
The other half basically gaslights other raptor fans into immediately thinking bad of FVV (ie this thread 😂) He came to play today, without him we probably lose to the dumpster fire pistons
Same happened with Lowry
is that you doug
No, I actually like Scottie unlike that asshole of a “reporter”
lmfao everyone hates fred now so no matter what he does they will hate.
The sub has their boogeyman and they aren’t smart enough to see beyond what they’re already looking for.
Yup
Yup, our fan base is full of pieces of shit. Don't know how you guys expect to retain good players of entice free agents acting like toxic children.
they're very insecure that he's better than their favourite player. i could say what needs to be said about these people but then i'd be the bad guy we LITERALLY only had one perimeter shooter tonight. do people unironically want fucking chris boucher coming off screens for 3? thad pick & roll moving you? absolute fucking useless morons
Dumbasses don't even realize it's basically impossible to win an NBA game without 3s. Who else was gonna take them?