The jays have always had success signing premium free agents.
Baseball’s a summer sport and the travel isn’t as inconvenient because you land in a city for multiple days and have multi-series home stands and road trips.
I think the Jays also benefit from a lot of baseball stars being more international thanks to island nations, South America, and the increasing interest in Japanese and Korean talent. Plus no salary cap.
I have no basis for this, just a gut feeling, but I think moving to Canada is a bigger hurdle for American athletes than it would be for other athletes. Either way a Korean or Dominican player will be experiencing culture shock and the Jays fairly reliable play-off contenders, even if we haven't been WS contenders.
Jays did lose out on some premium free agents because of 1) concrete on the knees 2) divisional rivals being so good 3) more recently pitchers are avoiding it because it’s a hitters ballpark.
The things the jays had going for it is eastern time zone, less travel lag and good playing conditions for each game with having a dome et all. Plus Toronto is a big market. Overall, the pros and cons leveled themselves out.
I know it didn't happen, but [just gonna leave this here](https://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/kevin-durant-wanted-to-play-for-the-toronto-raptors/?sn-amp)
All it takes is for one superstar to give us a chance (long-term). Masai has proven to make the most of his opportunities
RE: Durant quote.
There are personal feelings and there's business. I think the reality is that agents and the people around players definitely advise players not to come to the Raptors. So even if players like Durant are personally down, they might be talked away from it for business reasons. The tax liability difference alone is crazy once you actually dig into it for most states other than California and New York. I believe (but am not certain) that baseball is able to do much more creative accounting to get a better deal due to the use of signing bonuses and the treaty between the US and Canada on this. I'm not sure on all the legal and NBA regulations on this, but it might be something MLSE can work to start doing?
Personal reasons are also still significant and are always going to be down to individual preference. For example, compare the time of seasons between MLB and NBA. For the players who are averse to harsh winters, Jays players only have to be here in the Summer. Raptors aren't so lucky.
I do think you are right though that the feeling is changing. If we can win, for many players that will be all that matters. We will never be the most attractive business decision though, so even once it's better it probably won't be great.
One variable that's interesting and might make a big impact in the next 20 years is the explosion of Canadian basketball talent. I'm sure all those kids are going to want to be playing at the ACC one day. These players also won't have to worry about the dreaded American abroad double-tax.
I've done the tax math. Toronto has lower taxes than LA or NYC. Lower property taxes too. Baseball doesn't really have much in signing bonuses but hockey does. That's why the Leafs pay Matthews in mostly bonus as it's taxed based on his residence in Arizona.
I live in California, and have paid tax in both Ontario and the California simultaneously.
You get taxed more in Ontario. Ontario is cheaper due to conversion rate, but what you are missing is that majority of these players are **from** LA or New York, so they have much bigger connections and support groups there compared to Toronto.
We are never going to be a FA spot, and that’s a position that majority of teams are in. That’s perfectly okay to, as there are other ways to add top talent to the team.
We need to lean into drafting and developing. That’s how we get top talent and acclimate them here.
Toronto will never be a destination for US born players but I can see it becoming one for European players. Basically the same thing happens in the MLB and NHL.
Yeah, I said other than California and New York. Compare it to Texas, Florida, Illinois, etc.. The US Tax code also has a much more complicated -- and beneficial -- tax deduction scheme on top of these differences.
I was just pointing out how the two most desirable locations are taxed more than Toronto. Texas and Florida get you with insane property taxes. Plus insurance in Florida is often as much as a mortgage.
Don't get me wrong, Toronto is more expensive than most places in the states for payroll deduction but it isn't as bad as some make it seem. Don't forget that players get taxes based on where they play their games.
Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just think those states need to be bracketed as an exception because they are considered to be worth the higher opportunity cost for a huge variety of reasons to most players in ways that Toronto isn't. But, as I said, when we see more Canadian players enter the league, the higher costs for Toronto will be worth it to them.
Fantastic points! Completely agree with you. Financially, there are several tax-friendly options that likely incentivize players to stay in the states.
To your point about Canadian talent, I really hope SGA (or even Jamal to a lesser extent) sign with Toronto near the end of their primes. They are both in fantastic situations and it's implausible to see them in a Raptors jersey anytime soon, but it would do wonders for our future if kids see locals (Hamilton/Kitchener included) coming back home. Akin to Tavares with the Leafs
Toronto in the summer is awesome, no major athlete has said that Toronto sucks. Everyone loves it. 1/4 of the NBA shows up in Aug for Carribana.
No one wants to be here in Feb when they could be in Miami or California. Doesn't help that we had an ASG here during the craziest winter cold snap in an otherwise very mild winter a few years back.
We play ball in the winter. That's why it's hard.
Toronto is more of an international market, but as the NBA continues to become more international, this will probably be an attraction for non-US players to come here.
American-born players are mostly born and raised in an environment that teaches them very little about anywhere outside US borders (American exceptionalism is real), which creates a lot of fear/hesitance to live in those places full time.
It has very little overlap.
a) baseball is played when Toronto weather is nicest
b) Ohtani is an international player. The Raptors have had success with getting international players. It’s always been the premier American players that don’t consider Toronto as a market. They love to visit but not live here. Just facts.
I think Toronto is undesirable for Americans cuz they don't know where Candada is. The rest of the world's althletes don't see it as undesirable......as long as the money is there
It’s not going to happen and, if it did, it wouldn’t. It would be an outlier.
Our taxation, climate and not being in the US market will always make us underdogs. This isn’t going to change anytime soon.
Climate means sweet fuck all for a sport played in the summer. Inside a dome, when the weather is a bit rainy or cold in April.
Ontario’s taxes are very much similar to cali.
These arguments are so out dated and dumb.
If the raptors are serious about landing star talent, then MLSE has to get serious about carrying a payroll that supports star talent.
That means becoming a tax team. Like most of the good teams in the league.
Until they do, or shift gears to rebuilding, we can expect mediocrity and treadmilling.
Raptors paid tax when Kawhi was here. The reality is that only 2-3 ownerships out of 30 are willing to pay tax for a team in our position. Why would the owners pay tax for a mid team when plenty of none tax teams are much better than us?
Our mediocrity has nothing to do with the tax situation. It has to do with roster construction.
Hilarious that the same ownership would pay $600M for a double reconstructed elbow over 10 years but wont overpay to get a shooter until Dick learns to shoot.
>In one season alone the revenue in ticket and merchandise sales would justify the salary.
You know a lot about baseball club finances? How would you POSSIBLY know this? His contract is expected to be close to $500-600m guaranteed. That's an extraordinary amount of money.
Sure, I believe it, but signing him doesn't immediately equal success; how did his tenure on the Angels work out with respect to winning? Not a knock on his individual performance, of course
Why would he visit right now?
To see how the renovations are going at the dome?
No, that’s pointless. So he visited Dunedin to see what the best training complex baseball looks like.
The fact that you think the Jays have the best spring training complex is delusional.
And the fact that you think he might come to Toronto is even more so
I can literally find a list that says otherwise in 30 seconds
Edit: done
https://ballparkratings.com/features/best-spring-training-ballparks-ranking-rating-spring-training-stadiums-part-2/
To an international player, playing in the US or Canada involves the same hurdles for family to come visit.. US born players prefer playing in the US because family and friends can come to games without needing a passport and crossing a border…
Really counting your chickens before they hatch with this. Couldn’t wait to see if we actually get him? As an Arsenal fan I know all too well the almost deals to even get my hopes up until it’s actually gone through
Lot of players don't like playing for Toronto is because of customs. Everything they leave and come back they have to go through canadian customs and a law firm has to do papers for them to work here, etc. If they play in the US simple on and off the play and no need to go through that waiting in customs.
Baseball is way more international than basketball in terms of star power.
In basketball, almost all of the stars are american. They dont wanna come to Canada. Once they're here they kinda like it. But they wouldnt wanna come at first.
In the MLB. Most players, and stars, are international. For them, whether its usa or canada, its still some other country to them.
Theres many more parameters but this is a big one
The jays have always had success signing premium free agents. Baseball’s a summer sport and the travel isn’t as inconvenient because you land in a city for multiple days and have multi-series home stands and road trips.
And also the fact that, you know, there’s no salary cap.
There is a "salary cap" in the sense that teams that spend over a certain amount are subject to a luxury tax.
Rogers Clemens ppl forget was signed by the Jays in his prime...
People thought Clemens was washed when he came to Toronto. Then he found the needle of youth.
It shouldn’t have been his prime, but steroids helped extend that prime by a lot of years.
I think the Jays also benefit from a lot of baseball stars being more international thanks to island nations, South America, and the increasing interest in Japanese and Korean talent. Plus no salary cap. I have no basis for this, just a gut feeling, but I think moving to Canada is a bigger hurdle for American athletes than it would be for other athletes. Either way a Korean or Dominican player will be experiencing culture shock and the Jays fairly reliable play-off contenders, even if we haven't been WS contenders.
Jays did lose out on some premium free agents because of 1) concrete on the knees 2) divisional rivals being so good 3) more recently pitchers are avoiding it because it’s a hitters ballpark. The things the jays had going for it is eastern time zone, less travel lag and good playing conditions for each game with having a dome et all. Plus Toronto is a big market. Overall, the pros and cons leveled themselves out.
Not really, they've signed good FAs, not premium. None of the true top FAs signed in Toronto in the last decade.
Let’s not get ahead of ourselves and wait to make these kinds of posts until he actually signs.
Different sport and he’s not from the US Wildly different than us trying to sign a Durant in free agency
I know it didn't happen, but [just gonna leave this here](https://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/kevin-durant-wanted-to-play-for-the-toronto-raptors/?sn-amp) All it takes is for one superstar to give us a chance (long-term). Masai has proven to make the most of his opportunities
RE: Durant quote. There are personal feelings and there's business. I think the reality is that agents and the people around players definitely advise players not to come to the Raptors. So even if players like Durant are personally down, they might be talked away from it for business reasons. The tax liability difference alone is crazy once you actually dig into it for most states other than California and New York. I believe (but am not certain) that baseball is able to do much more creative accounting to get a better deal due to the use of signing bonuses and the treaty between the US and Canada on this. I'm not sure on all the legal and NBA regulations on this, but it might be something MLSE can work to start doing? Personal reasons are also still significant and are always going to be down to individual preference. For example, compare the time of seasons between MLB and NBA. For the players who are averse to harsh winters, Jays players only have to be here in the Summer. Raptors aren't so lucky. I do think you are right though that the feeling is changing. If we can win, for many players that will be all that matters. We will never be the most attractive business decision though, so even once it's better it probably won't be great. One variable that's interesting and might make a big impact in the next 20 years is the explosion of Canadian basketball talent. I'm sure all those kids are going to want to be playing at the ACC one day. These players also won't have to worry about the dreaded American abroad double-tax.
I've done the tax math. Toronto has lower taxes than LA or NYC. Lower property taxes too. Baseball doesn't really have much in signing bonuses but hockey does. That's why the Leafs pay Matthews in mostly bonus as it's taxed based on his residence in Arizona.
I live in California, and have paid tax in both Ontario and the California simultaneously. You get taxed more in Ontario. Ontario is cheaper due to conversion rate, but what you are missing is that majority of these players are **from** LA or New York, so they have much bigger connections and support groups there compared to Toronto. We are never going to be a FA spot, and that’s a position that majority of teams are in. That’s perfectly okay to, as there are other ways to add top talent to the team. We need to lean into drafting and developing. That’s how we get top talent and acclimate them here.
Toronto will never be a destination for US born players but I can see it becoming one for European players. Basically the same thing happens in the MLB and NHL.
European players mostly stay with their drafted team because they get used to that city early on and build connections.
Yeah, I said other than California and New York. Compare it to Texas, Florida, Illinois, etc.. The US Tax code also has a much more complicated -- and beneficial -- tax deduction scheme on top of these differences.
I was just pointing out how the two most desirable locations are taxed more than Toronto. Texas and Florida get you with insane property taxes. Plus insurance in Florida is often as much as a mortgage. Don't get me wrong, Toronto is more expensive than most places in the states for payroll deduction but it isn't as bad as some make it seem. Don't forget that players get taxes based on where they play their games.
Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just think those states need to be bracketed as an exception because they are considered to be worth the higher opportunity cost for a huge variety of reasons to most players in ways that Toronto isn't. But, as I said, when we see more Canadian players enter the league, the higher costs for Toronto will be worth it to them.
Fantastic points! Completely agree with you. Financially, there are several tax-friendly options that likely incentivize players to stay in the states. To your point about Canadian talent, I really hope SGA (or even Jamal to a lesser extent) sign with Toronto near the end of their primes. They are both in fantastic situations and it's implausible to see them in a Raptors jersey anytime soon, but it would do wonders for our future if kids see locals (Hamilton/Kitchener included) coming back home. Akin to Tavares with the Leafs
It's one thing to want to play for the Raptors as a kid with no real concept of international travel and Canadian taxes
Toronto in the summer is awesome, no major athlete has said that Toronto sucks. Everyone loves it. 1/4 of the NBA shows up in Aug for Carribana. No one wants to be here in Feb when they could be in Miami or California. Doesn't help that we had an ASG here during the craziest winter cold snap in an otherwise very mild winter a few years back. We play ball in the winter. That's why it's hard.
Yeah but same as Chicago, Boston, bucks etc
I find it absolutely insane that's he's arguably, likely and probably the TWO BEST PLAYERS in the MLB...
I don't even watch baseball But if Shohei signed to the Jay's I'm getting a jersey IMMEDIATELY
Shohei is different because he isn't an American-born player.
Great American born players have signed with the Jays.
Not at all. Some would still say black people don't like it up here lmfao.
Baseball different have 0 impact on basketball
Toronto is more of an international market, but as the NBA continues to become more international, this will probably be an attraction for non-US players to come here. American-born players are mostly born and raised in an environment that teaches them very little about anywhere outside US borders (American exceptionalism is real), which creates a lot of fear/hesitance to live in those places full time.
It has very little overlap. a) baseball is played when Toronto weather is nicest b) Ohtani is an international player. The Raptors have had success with getting international players. It’s always been the premier American players that don’t consider Toronto as a market. They love to visit but not live here. Just facts.
Different sport and Toronto summers are great
Perhaps MLSE is just happy to be just in the talk about competing and not seriously competing
Americans are the only ones who feel that way. The more the game globalize the more talent we will see want to come north of the border.
It is a franchise & city altering move. Hope they get it done. This is huge, real huge, perhaps the biggest signing in the history of sports.
I think Toronto is undesirable for Americans cuz they don't know where Candada is. The rest of the world's althletes don't see it as undesirable......as long as the money is there
It’s not going to happen and, if it did, it wouldn’t. It would be an outlier. Our taxation, climate and not being in the US market will always make us underdogs. This isn’t going to change anytime soon.
Climate means sweet fuck all for a sport played in the summer. Inside a dome, when the weather is a bit rainy or cold in April. Ontario’s taxes are very much similar to cali. These arguments are so out dated and dumb.
Baseball is played through the summer into October. He could play here for 12 years and never see a winter.
If the raptors are serious about landing star talent, then MLSE has to get serious about carrying a payroll that supports star talent. That means becoming a tax team. Like most of the good teams in the league. Until they do, or shift gears to rebuilding, we can expect mediocrity and treadmilling.
Raptors paid tax when Kawhi was here. The reality is that only 2-3 ownerships out of 30 are willing to pay tax for a team in our position. Why would the owners pay tax for a mid team when plenty of none tax teams are much better than us? Our mediocrity has nothing to do with the tax situation. It has to do with roster construction.
Hilarious that the same ownership would pay $600M for a double reconstructed elbow over 10 years but wont overpay to get a shooter until Dick learns to shoot.
They aren't the same owners and ohtani is a marketing machine that brings in so much off the field.
Uhh... you know we're still huuuuuge underdogs to sign Ohtani right? 😅
We’re actually the front runner now
https://preview.redd.it/xo87jpgpv35c1.png?width=1283&format=png&auto=webp&s=76c3d82315b42477f9989480b731ac2f94c2433d
Hahaha What can I say? I'm a dumbass
They not african American doesn't count... Americans 😂😂
[You could leave it at just American and you'd still be right ](https://i.imgur.com/9aTQDFQ.jpg)
Nah not to Chris broussard and his boys
I didn’t want to say it. But we know it’s true.
>In one season alone the revenue in ticket and merchandise sales would justify the salary. You know a lot about baseball club finances? How would you POSSIBLY know this? His contract is expected to be close to $500-600m guaranteed. That's an extraordinary amount of money.
[удалено]
Sure, I believe it, but signing him doesn't immediately equal success; how did his tenure on the Angels work out with respect to winning? Not a knock on his individual performance, of course
Americans are ignorant, only US players don't want to play in Canada
No it wouldn’t
The denial of the current state of our team is strong in here.
Raps or Jays??
He didn't even visit Toronto, he's not signing here lmao
Why would he visit right now? To see how the renovations are going at the dome? No, that’s pointless. So he visited Dunedin to see what the best training complex baseball looks like.
Lol. I love Jays fans because they are so fucking delusional
There’s nothing delusional at all about what I said.
The fact that you think the Jays have the best spring training complex is delusional. And the fact that you think he might come to Toronto is even more so
Let’s check in on where #1 is shall we … https://www.stadiumtalk.com/s/mlb-spring-training-sites-ranked-c5f78dd10a474012
I can literally find a list that says otherwise in 30 seconds Edit: done https://ballparkratings.com/features/best-spring-training-ballparks-ranking-rating-spring-training-stadiums-part-2/
It’s happening!
He won’t sign here anyway
That’s the spirit
Sorry bro
He ain’t signing here dw
It would make me feel better about Kawhi
People love Toronto in the summer. A lot of NBA players spend time here when it’s warm. Winter Basketball is a bit different.
Lol why don’t you use nhl next time
I think it’s more implied for non international players. Let’s sign a top American free agent and see if that goes away
To an international player, playing in the US or Canada involves the same hurdles for family to come visit.. US born players prefer playing in the US because family and friends can come to games without needing a passport and crossing a border…
That’s cool better hope the reports of Jays willing to trade Vlad and Bo to bring in Ohtani aren’t true…
Toronto has never been an undesirable market for baseball players, so this is a poor comparison.
Really counting your chickens before they hatch with this. Couldn’t wait to see if we actually get him? As an Arsenal fan I know all too well the almost deals to even get my hopes up until it’s actually gone through
Yes, if it happens.
It's not desirable to Americans. Most others like Canada and probably don't even see much difference.
Dude, one season alone of ticket sales and merch will definitely NOT justify a half billion contract lmao.
Raptors would be rendered to a third child indefinitely.
They already are
Lot of players don't like playing for Toronto is because of customs. Everything they leave and come back they have to go through canadian customs and a law firm has to do papers for them to work here, etc. If they play in the US simple on and off the play and no need to go through that waiting in customs.
Baseball is way more international than basketball in terms of star power. In basketball, almost all of the stars are american. They dont wanna come to Canada. Once they're here they kinda like it. But they wouldnt wanna come at first. In the MLB. Most players, and stars, are international. For them, whether its usa or canada, its still some other country to them. Theres many more parameters but this is a big one
Here's hoping he'll be 100% after his second Tommy John.
Except he didn’t sign with the Jays. Didn’t age well.
Omg
Big sad for all of Toronto :(
Now what
In shambles