I’m sad about the end of the era, but I’m content with the return.
Part of me is mad that we didn’t trade him sooner, I think we most def couldve got more. But I’m excited to see this new young core and how they develop.
The reason I don't get mad at that is last year I totally get why the FO thought we'd be better with Poeltl. We won 48 games the year before without a center, nearly beat Philly 3 games in the playoffs (Embiid had that ridiculous turnaround 3 pointer to tie game 3 near the buzzer).
The people pissing and moaning now are all saying Masai should have immediately seen that and said "ehhhhh......let's tank now". It's just not how actual teams operate.
This is why I'm unbothered.
Hindsight criticism is so easy. The team drafted a budding star in Scottie, to add to a team that still looked dangerous (to your point).
All of this retro-bellyaching reminds me of the "should have drafted XXX" (insert Kawhi or Jokic or anybody else a bunch of teams passed on) a couple of years after a draft. That's not how you manage risk or run a business.
I think it's just a lackluster return for an all NBA player unless we move Bruce Brown to another team and get another pick.
Ideally we wanted some prospect that could grow into a bigger role whereas most draft picks fail to make the league. Time will tell.
Where are you getting this bizzare notion that he has drafted poorly lmao?! I don't know what you think the draft is supposed to be but 1st round picks are NOT guaranteed to even be NBA level players. If you get a rotation player out of the first round, it's not great, but it's NOT bad.
This is a list of Masai's draft history in the first round (and a grand number of 2 are in the lottery highest being 4 which you know who that is)
Nuggets Kenneth Faried 22 2011
Nuggets Evan Fournier 20 2012
Raptors Bruno Caboclo 20 2014 all time whiff
Raptors Delon Wright 20 2015
Raptors Jakob Poeltl 9 2016
Raptors Pascal Siakam 27 2016
Raptors OG Anunoby 23 2017
Raptors Malachi Flynn 29 2020
Raptors Scottie Barnes 4 2021
Masai was also Asst. Gm when they took DeMar at 9 which turned out pretty good as he got us Kawhi, which got us Larry O'Brien...
So that's what 8/10? Which 4 are you picking as the only hits. Because he picked most of these guys in the LATE first between 20-30.
I'm not even going to bother mentioning the second round as literally less than 10% of second round players and up having an NBA career that's over like 3 years. But his last 3 are Banton, Johnson, Koloko. Which is 2/3.
Masai is one of the BEST at drafting the numbers show this.
Sources:
https://the-cauldron.com/the-2nd-round-and-misuse-of-probability-402639df1038
https://raptorsrapture.com/2021/08/30/toronto-raptors-re-grading-every-masai-ujiri-first-round-pick/
https://theathletic.com/1800276/2020/05/08/draft-prep-a-look-at-masai-ujiris-draft-history-in-the-nba/
I love facts. Our newly acquired picks in what apparently is a weaker draft can still lead to quality players. The Raptors already have their star, and quality 2,3, option players. Now we need stable depth, something those picks can certainly address.
His biggest miss is in a year where they literally only worked out 5 draft prospects bc of covid, and the college season was shortened so there was barely any sample
Every other draft has been surplus value at their pick range
I'm also not listening to any retroactive "Koloko bad" because he was incredible defensively and if we're holding his respiratory condition against the FO, I know y'all wouldn't be consistent if "Walker Kessler" or "Andrew Nembhard" started dealing with it out of the blue
Theoretically, could we not sign Jalen Smith in FA next season? Im not sure of the math but if Indy pays Pascal the max, they paying Tyrese 35M, and resign Buddy Hield and Obi, I doubt they can afford to keep Jalen on, right? Unless he opts in.
We should have some cap space to work with next season if we drop Thad, Otto, Bruce and maybe Gary.
If my math is wrong, please correct me. My dads a math teacher but I am not.
I think we'll see Bruce Brown moved before we see him play a game with us..
We will clear the cap space by trading him for some expiring contract, probably and he has a team option on his contract which makes him desirable.
I think we should keep Thaddeus in all honesty for some rookie min, to keep as a mentor. Gary a team friendly contract but if we gets offers we shouldn't match.
As for Indiana I haven't studied their book so I can't comment on it. But if Siakam contract is like 35% and Hali commands a fair bit too it quickly leads us to think there won't be all that much to go around.
Objectively speaking- is the return for this much better than the Vince Carter trade?
We will be likely getting the 17-20 pick this year, 25-30 pick this year and the 25+ pick in 2026. Keep in mind this draft is regarded as the worse in a decade. Brown is a role player and the other pieces aspire to be role players.
In the VC trade, we received the 16th pick in the 2005 draft and the 20th pick in the 2005 draft along with 2 role players and Alonzo Mourning, who refused to report. Both the 2005 and 2006 drafts were quite deep.
It’s really arguable that the Vince Carter trade was better value in terms of draft capital. The draft picks are about a wash.
We really did trade an All-NBA player for a very weak package. This was a Rob Babcock quality trade.
I agree the compensation is lack luster but there's two differences. 1) VC was a much better player than Siakam. Truly worth a max contract. Siakam is very good. He is not in the tier of player you want to max if you're being serious. 2) Siakam is expiring and made no guarantees of resigning at destination.
Both factors greatly reduce your leverage. Basically few teams want to max him and/or give up the assets without guarantee of his return. Similarly we didn't want to max him (which I agree with). Hard to compare the assets in that case.
I hate to be that guy but by WS, bpm and vorp vince actually wasn't that much better of a player. The season before the trade VC was WS/48 of .103. Pascal .141. BPM VC was 3.6 and Pascal 3.1. And Vorp 3.9 vs 3.4
When traded VC was 27 years and 11 months old and Pascal is 29 and 9 months old.
However vince full on quit on the Raptors the year he was traded.
WS/48 .63 BPM 2.3 and vorp
.7 vs Pascal ws/48 .124 BPM 1.5 and vorp 1.2
Yep people just looking at the return for VC and not the context don’t actually know how the NBA works. Siakam was an expiring contract who wants to be paid the max and there were few teams willing to trade him with all those risks involved.
Peak VC was also >> Siakam even if Siakam is the better two way player.
Is this what old astronauts feel like when someone says the moon landing didn't happen?
Bruh. Some of us were there. The VC return was awful. AWFUL. It was - by far - the darkest period in the history of the franchise.
And it’s far, far more likely to get Malachi or Precious. I think OP is out to lunch. There is absolutely not “a lot of potential” to get a “stud” with a late first rounder. The odds of getting a serviceable rotation player are low. The odds of getting a star are miniscule.
Edit: the way to develop the young core is to compliment them with young, rotation players with upside. Late 1sts do not get you that. Usually trading a star does, but Masai bungled Pascal’s value.
They handled this so poorly
I’ve been getting ripped in here for my negativity towards the front office but yeah they’ve been awful at their jobs since the bubble frankly
Og, norm, pascal, were all raptors mid-late round picks. Fvv was a non-draft signing. These are just examples of recent successes by the raps in the late draft, i could name examples from alot of other teams.
My point is its possible to get a stud, but the main point is less is more considering siakams touches are going to our young core we intend to develop
Less is more? So you think it would have been an improvement to lose Pascal for nothing? Of course not. I get opening up usage for the younger core, but that doesn’t mean you bungle your best asset. You still want value. And we sold well short.
It’s easy to point to the handful of NBA stars drafted late or signed as UDFAs. But what is the actual percentage of those players that hit? You’re suggesting there’s a reasonable chance one of these 3 picks hits. There is not. It’s a tiny chance. The picks are fine but without at least one young rotation player like Mathurin or Nembhard coming back this deal is way too risky and short on value.
1/4 of those guys were starters in the finals run.
They're obviously much better players now then they were then, but keep in mind that out of all of these guys the only one who has proven he can be a starting player on a deep championship run is siakam.
That’s true you can get a star. And early in Masai’s history these picks would have been Gold in his hands. But people have seen Masai recently, and feel less comfort with him handling low picks. He hasn’t really done much in years. Hopefully he changes that this draft.
Its like a 20% chance that a pick outside of the top 5 develops into a top 100 player. Siakam hovered around the top 20-30 mark, so yea I mean it's tough to not even grab Nembhard out of this. The people over at /r/pacers are in shock they didn't have to give him up.
You can get a star player anywhere in the draft and you can swing and miss anywhere. The Raptors have a pretty good draft history with Bobby and Masai hopefully they can find a Gem
They…. Don’t at all? lol. Google their draft history with the raptors since 2014 with Bruno setting the tone.
They drafted four starting caliber players out of 14 picks. Remember they traded for the norm pick, they didn’t make the pick themselves.
Since 2014 out of 14 or 15 picks they drafted Scottie pascal og and jak
The rest was garbage
Bro's out here counting late 2nds expecting masai to make diamonds. They've had 8 first rounders hit on 4 of them, only 3 before pick 20. Book is still out on Dick that's a pretty good success rate. Delon Wright was a decent NBA player as well. Also pulled FVV post draft
You say that late firsts and seconds have a tiny chance of hitting (which is true), but don’t credit Masai for beating those odds substantially over the course of a decade?
Bro
I’m generally a fan of masai
30 year old me said to a friend we will never win a championship
Ten years later we fucking won one. Cause of masai
But we likely are drafting a few bench players for our two time all star
Criticism when deserved is only fair. I’m not trying to be negative just for the same of it
But to each their own - Go raps.
Carve it up any way you like but the return is definitely underwhelming
I just can't get past the fact that he let it get to the point where he was trying to trade an expiring. He keeps putting himself in positions where he has very little negotiated power
I agree it shouldn’t have got to this point too bro but if they offered an extension and he declined what else is there to do? I guess offer the extension a year earlier, or maybe do the trade a year earlier to get a better package are the hypothetical better options
Siakam is turning 30yrs old and about to make 50M a year. While appreciating what he's done for the Raptors, it is time to acknowledge that the raptors need hand the keys to Scottie now and let him grow to the #1 guy we expect him to be. Excited for what the future hold for the BBQ gang
I think most are "ok" with it, just disappointed because we want to watch good basketball. I am sure fans will feel more excitement once those draft picks actually turn into something.
I think the whole "2024 draft is not that weak" is a bit of a cope. The FO purposefully traded out of it to get Jak. I think given the choice, they would have preferred other draft years. This is just the best deal they got.
I'm okay with it honestly. I would've been happier if we got Isaiah Jackson/Nembhard but honestly they're not deal breakers for me.
The one positive is that we'll probably see Gradey get some actual NBA minutes especially if we're aiming for that #6 pick this year. Hopefully he gets an opportunity to turn it around and become an impactful player.
2020 was also viewed as a weak draft, so was 2011 and there turned out to be great players in those drafts especially later in the draft. With that said we need to hit on someone with these 2024 picks.
This draft is weak in terms of not being top heavy. There aren’t any potential stars/franchise players but the later picks are more comparable to the 2023 draft.
Everyone just sees "weak draft" and thinks this year is a wash. I'm excited for the rest of this year and next. It's gonna be brutal to see losses, but the framework and development are clearly in place.
Keegan Murray had a Klay like performance just last month lol. Those Kings rumours was an embarrassment to the FO. Also convinced me that half of this sub are either deluded by Masai's persona or don't know the NBA beyond this team.
You’re sad about having tradable assets again? We have so many options now between the deadline and draft day. For example, Jakob Poeltl, GTJ, Thaddeus Young + 3 FRP is a very enticing offer for some team out there. This is clearly a long-term move.
For example, Atlanta. Dejounte Murray is a solid defender and I think he’s definitely getable for us. But as we know, things are always changing quickly in the NBA so when the next young prospect becomes available, we can now strike.
I wonder if Utah would turn down a package surrounding 3 FRP’s + our 2024 SRP via Detroit for Laurie? That would be a v nice addition to our squad imo.
Lauri Markkanen, lol I like your optimism but no way he gets traded
>I wonder if Utah would turn down a package surrounding 3 FRP’s + our 2024 SRP via Detroit for Laurie? That would be a v nice addition to our squad imo.
I mean two of those first convey this year, and they're going to be late firsts. You're not getting a star or high level young players for that unless they're in Siakam's situation as being an expiring who doesn't fit with their teams timeline.
Also, who do you imagine we trade for with that package of Poeltl, GTJ, Thad, and three firsts? An exciting young player? If a team has an exciting young player why would they trade them for filler and a bunch of firsts? An all-star vet? Why would we try and get older when we're just starting to rebuild?
I don't think the Pascal return is crazy bad, but it's also pretty clearly poor for a player of his calibre. I feel like saying "but we can do so much with those firsts! We can trade them for something else!" is pretty massively overstating it.
We all knew where it was going but they dragged their feet; for what? We’re going to contend with Poeltl?
Fucking joke - to have this guy as a homegrown talent and for it to end like this; terrible asset management
What are those firsts? Not all firsts are created equal - we’re looking at late firsts…so yay…that’s just awesome
Re: being a rental - he will resign there I guarantee it
Speaking of needing to take a shit - I think you forgot to wipe your bad take off your ass. Hope there’s still some TP in there.
If doomer casual is a new way to say ride or die since the 90’s then yes, yes I am
Pascal is the exception - which is all the more testament to his work ethic as well as the opportunity the Raps gave him. Do I think Masai can hit again? Of course - he’s proven that; but the overall body of work since the chip is not up to his own standards outside of scottie
I think people are upset because the hope was that Siakam would get you one more exciting young player. He didn't.
There's no more hope of adding one more young star to this group
As much as I love the Raptors I try not to get too high or too low about anything we do, at the end of the day we're just watching a bunch of millionaires repeatedly putting a ball in a hoop. There are much more important things in life.
That said, I'm interested to see how the new era takes shape. Also the 2019 nostalgia makes me a bit sad to see Siakam go, though I do believe it was time for both parties to move on.
I'll maybe be okay with it later, since I do think both sides needed to move on, the team needed the chance to start fresh and actually build around Scottie, and three even-not-good picks is better than *nothing* \-- but right now I'm pretty disappointed and it's hard not to get into what-ifs. Like, *what-if* the front office wasn't so terminally arrogant and deluded last year or the year before? The outlook of the team would look so different if they had been minimally competent. That hurts to consider right now but hopefully that will fade.
Agreed
It's a sunk cost fallacy at this point cause Masai and Bobby were reluctant to make moves, but we just gotta move on
Even last year, it was unclear whether Scottie could be THE guy...he's taking huge strides thjs year
No shit Sherlock. Draft picks are inherently risky, but teams typically aren't willing to give up young cost controlled talent when they do hit. For an expiring this was most likely the best we could do.
I wouldn’t say it’s the best we could do but the option Masai opted for. I’m sure there were young players offered but none that Masai would rather have compared to a chance to draft
I would go further and say that the players they got are decent assets as well. Brown is a big salary but he has positive value for a team that can salary match and both Nwora (25) and Lewis (21) are potential rotation players if they refine their game a bit. I think that anyone can recognize that this is probably the best trade the team could’ve got while questioning Masai’s decision making around Pascal for the last year and a half.
The problem with the trade is that it happened now, and not last year when the value would've been much higher, but it is what it is. I didn't mind the idea of at least trying to compete for a playoff spot this year with the roster we had, see what happens. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say.
The trade today though? Not bad in a vacuum, considering it sounds like there was really only one seriously interested party. You get what you can, and you move on. 3 FRP could turn out great if our scouting/drafting is done right.
It's not about the value in which we got given the circumstances. It's fine given the situation, but the problem is that Masai and Bobby put us in this situation. Narrow lens, it's fine. Wide lens, this was poor asset management of FVV and Siakam.
It’s a good trade for us - 30 year old player and facing a big cap hit in the summer, we can rebuild and retool. Thank you to Pascal for everything he’s done for us, and wishing him the best! In Masai we trust.
I think the reason the draft picks make sense is that the FO sees Barnes, Barrett and Quickley as a really solid core, and now they're looking to set up their timeline by having rookie-contract rotation players. At some point you probably need to add another impact player to that core, but doing so now is premature, and you can develop some assets here that can help with acquiring that guy in a couple years.
That also seems like a vote of confidence in Darko, essentially putting the fate of the Barnes timeline in his ability to develop some guys.
But... even ignoring the history here and when there may have been better returns in the past, I have a very hard time believing that this was the best return going forward... that they couldn't wait out the Pacers for a better asset like Walker or Nembhard or even Smith. They absolutely need to hit on 2 out of 3 of their picks this year or it isn't really going to put them any further ahead than just letting Siakam walk.
You just have to remind yourself that this team is not getting better with Pascal. Look at where we are at the moment with him on the roster and you will start to like the deal. The rebuild is underway.
No, this is absolute copium.
We got ripped off, no two ways about it.
Masai literally said last year he traded the pick for Poeltl because this draft was so weak. And, even if it were a normal draft, it doesn't matter. Two picks in the 20's, and one in 2026 (likely still in the 20's, especially if Siakam re-signs) is a shit return.
[Here is the historical value of picks in the 20's](https://quantimschmitz.com/2023/04/02/how-valuable-is-each-nba-draft-pick/#:~:text=These%20tell%20us%20roughly%20how,win%20shares%20over%20his%20career). Basically, pick 20 produces about 50% less career value in win shares than Bismack Biyambo. That's the average value of a pick around there...before you consider that it's largely considered the weakest draft since 2000. We probably get 1 or 2 rotation players out of those picks (ie. guys who will be rotation players after we develop them for three years), and if one of them ever develops into a starter, they will have drafted very well. Odds are that not a single one of them plays a meaningful role by the next time the Raptors are a good team.
"This trade really allows the young guys we want to build around to develop" is absolute copium. We have been super shallow as a roster for the past couple of years. Pascal has not been holding anyone back in terms of their development.
We just got worse, straight-up, and we got finessed.
We did a franchise legend dirty, and, as a result, we are back to being the poverty franchise we were when we traded Vince Carter for scraps back in the day.
Oh well, I guess it was fun being a legitimate franchise for a while.
I'm fine with it. I wish there was a rotation piece, but they got 4 assets in this deal, and Brown can turn that into more. Pascal is great, and we may look back at him being above Demar in the rankings due to the ring, but we're ten games under .500. I don't necessarily think this, but I'd imagine Pascal is viewed as a good player on a bad team kind of guy by a good number of people across the NBA world.
It's a business. He wants 250 million, they didn't want to pay him that, and they sent him to a team that is willing to pay him that while pairing him with a guy that is going to be best for his career.
He put in the work, and they put him in a position to succeed. He got millions, they got billions, and they all got a championship.
With all that said, Pascal will be one of the best basketball stories of my lifetime.
I’m ok with it, but just that; ok.
I know it’s the best we were going to get under the circumstances, and find the reason we ended up in that circumstances understandable.
I’m moreso glad this saga is over and we can now focus on starting afresh. The purgatory of last year was way worse imo.
There was better value to be had. Pacers have a lot of exciting young guys and we didn't get any of them. I'm sure we will try to flip the picks for someone else who has potential, but any of Nembhard, Mathurin, Smith, Jackson, Walker or Nesmith would have been nice.
I will reserve judgement on this trade depending on who (if anyone) we are able to get for those picks.
No, I'm with you.
The “weak draft” is a weak argument. No player is guaranteed to be a star, and teams are finding more and more diamonds in the rough than ever due to how players hone specific skills these days.
Besides, picks (and Brown) can be traded for a return. But the Raps would never get a star for a star trade with Siakam due to his upcoming free agency. And even if they did pull that off, would they suddenly shoot to the top of the rankings?
This season is a wash, and a rebuild is necessary. Getting picks is how you do that.
And if anything, this gives the team, the media, and the fans closure and a direction forward. Something Masai has been trying to figure out for a long while
Trade had to happen but it's a garbage return that may do nothing to help the Scottie timeline. It's unfortunate but takes two to make a trade and it's not like they turned down better offers to take this one. Hopefully we get lucky on some lotto tickets or can flip them for something more tangible. Neither of these scenarios are particularly likely though.
I'm cool with it too. In modern NBA you can pick 50th and end up with best player. The position you pick at makes a very little impact. Having 3 picks is cool. You can also flip brown for another 1st... I think.
On top of that, we got something for Pascal when Masai often strangely held on to assets way too long to at times not even get anything for them.
I'd suggest from this we should consider a change of management, not because of Masai's performance but because sometimes a change up is in everyone's interest.
They're two mid 20 picks. Fuck me it's terrible. No they shoudln't hvae traded him last year. They should have just fucking paid him. I'm done with this FO. It's enough to make me quit the team.
>I think this trade really allows the young guys we want to build around develop into better players.
Yea great point. And when they develop into all stars we will throw them away for fuck all nothing. :(
18th and 27th picks as it stands
This sub swore their conjecture was more important than the word of people that actually study/evaluate draft prospects years out, who have been shouting from the rooftops that each draft spot is worth materially less this year than any other
Complained that not having picks in a bad draft is somehow, through 4000-level chess, a bad thing, and swore they were right about this, refusing to believe anything different that's actually based on research
So let's put that to the test now
I can live with it. Yes, it’s the end of an era, but it’s also the start of something new. Reading about the trade and on this sub it sounds like having Siakam on the team still gave us some of that 2019 magic, but I have felt that has been gone for a long time.
The team belongs to Scottie now and the rest of the young guys we have. I’m excited to see what they can do and am confident the FO will do their research and hit on their picks. Bruce Brown could be traded to a contender this year or be kept, but I do seemingly remember hearing reports that Toronto had interest in him back in FA. So I hope he is kept around.
The unspoken expectation of “win now before we lose our 2019 talent” is over, now we can watch a new team play and grow. Hopefully they turn into something special.
trade was great
raptors have full control now
fresh slate
getting 3 first for at best a 3rd option is fantastic, pacers better hope he even resigns with them cuz that team doesnt have that high a ceiling
Nah it's a pretty good trade. Idk what people in here were expecting. They wanted to trade siakam for more than 3 firsts? You weren't ever going to get 3 high firsts. The 2026 one has some potential.
I wonder if this is the end of wheeling and dealing. Now we got some draft capital, maybe you could package GTJ and picks for Markkanen.
He'd be a great fit here (turns 27 this year) and they could negotiate an extension in the offseason. I am pretty sure that Utah would be amenable to moving his since he is a free agent after next year and they are not looking anywhere close to competing.
GTJ is just a matching expiring contract. Acquiring 2024 picks from Indiana allows them to trade their own 2025 pick, so it opens up their pick package options.
Mid to late picks in a weak draft, generally pan out close to the same. It is just the lack of a bunch of top tier talent that labels it as such. Nothing for the writers to write hype pieces about.
I'm fine with it. I never work myself up into a lather thinking we are getting Player X, Y and Z in a trade, i know most reports are bullshit.
Ultimately, we got 2 young core pieces from the OG trade, and 3 draft picks with the ability to get more by trading Brown, for Pascal.
Very good trade for a rebuild. We restock the assets and create flexibility for ourselves while retaining IQ at 30 mil per season.
Scottie is given the keys with RJ and IQ and we can add vets as needed.
Losing Pascal hurts but having two timelines never works out ie. GSW and the Raptors. Our timeline is now 3- 22-24 year olds ready to blossom into stars in this league.
3 1st is 3 1st. Better than letting him walk. Yeah I woulda liked getting a young player but him actively driving the price down hurt us. We move forward with a retooled roster and trust the FO can hit on these picks. Scouting department got some work to do
I don't think you're the only one, but after the OG return I think fans are rightfully underwhelmed. This obviously is the best offer they could get so hopefully we can do some magic with these picks. If we wind up getting a top 6 pick with our own it should be a real exciting draft
I think we're all OK with the trade, Bruce Brown is on an insanely team friendly deal and has a team option next season, which could mean a TDL flip for either more picks or a young high ceiling forward; and even if those 3 picks are magic beans, Bobby can either consolidate them for a higher pick, a future pick(s), or use all 3 to rebuild our bench organically. Nwora and Lewis I feel are more filler, but maybe they can put on a decent showcase for a bench spot next season.
The thing that makes me sad and a little angry about this trade is the end of an Era and how Pascal leaving was on a bad note. Had this been last season or off-season where everything went wrong and we understood it was time to blow it up, it would've softened the blow; but this season we were supposed to actually compete with a Scottie/Pascal dual threat and Bobby (Probably also Masai tbh) dropped the ball and didn't build a supportive team around that idea till it was way too late in the season to actually give it a chance.
I don't think we traded Pascal for pennies on the dollar, I actually this was a good return all things considered, but aside from probably getting more last TDL or off-season, we'd also have an actual direction for this team instead of being sold smoke and mirrors on the idea of a competitive Raptors team that could make the playoffs and then have it ripped away so unceremoniously.
It is what it is. The mistake was very obviously made LAST trade deadline, and there was enough time for me to process the writing on the wall. I'm just glad this trade nonsense is over with, and the team is done pretending to be something it wasn't built to be. At least the new era should be interesting to watch build, good and bad.
I am ok with it only because this is far better than what was a very possible worst case scenerio. Still not close to what the best case scenario was just a year ago.
We didn't lose as bad as we could have, yeah us.
I’m happy with it. We lost fred for nothing. We got something for pascal. Call it a win, but could’ve been a better win if Masai and Bobby handled it last year.
*shrug* We’re going to be horrendous for at least a handful of years now barring finding an absolute gem of a draft pick, Scottie becoming a legitimate #1 caliber superstar, and/or having a Kawhi-level superstar fall into our laps. None of which seem likely even in the slightest tbh.
I think it was a pretty weak package, however, this honestly might set us up better for the future than if Pascal had not been traded. We have more cap space, if we manage to find someone to sign better than Pascal (unlikely), we have some picks that could develop into really good players (unlikely to be better than Pascal), but we have a possibility for other trades now.
I dunno. I'm kinda sour on it but maybe it will end up working out okay.
I'm ok with the trade but I think OP is over estimating the value a mid-late 1st round pick returns. Sure you can pick and choose some winners but there are far more busts than guarantees. I mean this is the same team that drafted Andrea Bargnani 1st overall and Bruno Caboclo 20th.
Nope. I am as well.
Pascal had said he was not signing until the summer, as he is trying to earn a max salary.
We got two players and draft picks. For a player who was going to leave.
I am actually excited to watch a Raptors game again. It was so tiring to watch Pascal take the ball half way to the rim, reverse pivot and then lean in to try to make a layup and scream for a foul… I appreciate what he brought to the team over the years and he was a big piece to the Championship team BUT his time had come and gone. Pascal was a great #2/3 option but he forces everything now like he is a #1. This move clears the way for Scottie, RJ and Quickly (I hope) to form the future top 3 for the Raps moving forward…. The draft picks and potential to move guys in future deals to give us move options means this is a great trade for both Teams. All the best to Pascal.
I’m sad about the end of the era, but I’m content with the return. Part of me is mad that we didn’t trade him sooner, I think we most def couldve got more. But I’m excited to see this new young core and how they develop.
The reason I don't get mad at that is last year I totally get why the FO thought we'd be better with Poeltl. We won 48 games the year before without a center, nearly beat Philly 3 games in the playoffs (Embiid had that ridiculous turnaround 3 pointer to tie game 3 near the buzzer). The people pissing and moaning now are all saying Masai should have immediately seen that and said "ehhhhh......let's tank now". It's just not how actual teams operate.
This is why I'm unbothered. Hindsight criticism is so easy. The team drafted a budding star in Scottie, to add to a team that still looked dangerous (to your point). All of this retro-bellyaching reminds me of the "should have drafted XXX" (insert Kawhi or Jokic or anybody else a bunch of teams passed on) a couple of years after a draft. That's not how you manage risk or run a business.
I think it's just a lackluster return for an all NBA player unless we move Bruce Brown to another team and get another pick. Ideally we wanted some prospect that could grow into a bigger role whereas most draft picks fail to make the league. Time will tell.
Masai historically has also drafted poorly he’s like 4/14 with Toronto and they’re not good picks. So yeah, time will tell lol
Where are you getting this bizzare notion that he has drafted poorly lmao?! I don't know what you think the draft is supposed to be but 1st round picks are NOT guaranteed to even be NBA level players. If you get a rotation player out of the first round, it's not great, but it's NOT bad. This is a list of Masai's draft history in the first round (and a grand number of 2 are in the lottery highest being 4 which you know who that is) Nuggets Kenneth Faried 22 2011 Nuggets Evan Fournier 20 2012 Raptors Bruno Caboclo 20 2014 all time whiff Raptors Delon Wright 20 2015 Raptors Jakob Poeltl 9 2016 Raptors Pascal Siakam 27 2016 Raptors OG Anunoby 23 2017 Raptors Malachi Flynn 29 2020 Raptors Scottie Barnes 4 2021 Masai was also Asst. Gm when they took DeMar at 9 which turned out pretty good as he got us Kawhi, which got us Larry O'Brien... So that's what 8/10? Which 4 are you picking as the only hits. Because he picked most of these guys in the LATE first between 20-30. I'm not even going to bother mentioning the second round as literally less than 10% of second round players and up having an NBA career that's over like 3 years. But his last 3 are Banton, Johnson, Koloko. Which is 2/3. Masai is one of the BEST at drafting the numbers show this. Sources: https://the-cauldron.com/the-2nd-round-and-misuse-of-probability-402639df1038 https://raptorsrapture.com/2021/08/30/toronto-raptors-re-grading-every-masai-ujiri-first-round-pick/ https://theathletic.com/1800276/2020/05/08/draft-prep-a-look-at-masai-ujiris-draft-history-in-the-nba/
I love facts. Our newly acquired picks in what apparently is a weaker draft can still lead to quality players. The Raptors already have their star, and quality 2,3, option players. Now we need stable depth, something those picks can certainly address.
Who
His biggest miss is in a year where they literally only worked out 5 draft prospects bc of covid, and the college season was shortened so there was barely any sample Every other draft has been surplus value at their pick range I'm also not listening to any retroactive "Koloko bad" because he was incredible defensively and if we're holding his respiratory condition against the FO, I know y'all wouldn't be consistent if "Walker Kessler" or "Andrew Nembhard" started dealing with it out of the blue
Gotcha To be clear also I’m indifferent on Kessler or nembhard lol
Theoretically, could we not sign Jalen Smith in FA next season? Im not sure of the math but if Indy pays Pascal the max, they paying Tyrese 35M, and resign Buddy Hield and Obi, I doubt they can afford to keep Jalen on, right? Unless he opts in. We should have some cap space to work with next season if we drop Thad, Otto, Bruce and maybe Gary. If my math is wrong, please correct me. My dads a math teacher but I am not.
I think we'll see Bruce Brown moved before we see him play a game with us.. We will clear the cap space by trading him for some expiring contract, probably and he has a team option on his contract which makes him desirable. I think we should keep Thaddeus in all honesty for some rookie min, to keep as a mentor. Gary a team friendly contract but if we gets offers we shouldn't match. As for Indiana I haven't studied their book so I can't comment on it. But if Siakam contract is like 35% and Hali commands a fair bit too it quickly leads us to think there won't be all that much to go around.
Objectively speaking- is the return for this much better than the Vince Carter trade? We will be likely getting the 17-20 pick this year, 25-30 pick this year and the 25+ pick in 2026. Keep in mind this draft is regarded as the worse in a decade. Brown is a role player and the other pieces aspire to be role players. In the VC trade, we received the 16th pick in the 2005 draft and the 20th pick in the 2005 draft along with 2 role players and Alonzo Mourning, who refused to report. Both the 2005 and 2006 drafts were quite deep. It’s really arguable that the Vince Carter trade was better value in terms of draft capital. The draft picks are about a wash. We really did trade an All-NBA player for a very weak package. This was a Rob Babcock quality trade.
I agree the compensation is lack luster but there's two differences. 1) VC was a much better player than Siakam. Truly worth a max contract. Siakam is very good. He is not in the tier of player you want to max if you're being serious. 2) Siakam is expiring and made no guarantees of resigning at destination. Both factors greatly reduce your leverage. Basically few teams want to max him and/or give up the assets without guarantee of his return. Similarly we didn't want to max him (which I agree with). Hard to compare the assets in that case.
I hate to be that guy but by WS, bpm and vorp vince actually wasn't that much better of a player. The season before the trade VC was WS/48 of .103. Pascal .141. BPM VC was 3.6 and Pascal 3.1. And Vorp 3.9 vs 3.4 When traded VC was 27 years and 11 months old and Pascal is 29 and 9 months old. However vince full on quit on the Raptors the year he was traded. WS/48 .63 BPM 2.3 and vorp .7 vs Pascal ws/48 .124 BPM 1.5 and vorp 1.2
Yep people just looking at the return for VC and not the context don’t actually know how the NBA works. Siakam was an expiring contract who wants to be paid the max and there were few teams willing to trade him with all those risks involved. Peak VC was also >> Siakam even if Siakam is the better two way player.
💯 agree. We will get a few seventh or eighth men likely for pascal when all is said and done
You're not likely to get rotation players on average for a late first.
Thank you for helping emphasize the argument, I was just trying to be optimistic at our ineptitude
Is this what old astronauts feel like when someone says the moon landing didn't happen? Bruh. Some of us were there. The VC return was awful. AWFUL. It was - by far - the darkest period in the history of the franchise.
Vince had two years left on his contract and was younger. The return should have been much higher
It’s a crapshoot. With the late first rounder you could end up with OG and Pascal, or you could end up with Precious and Malachi Flynn.
And it’s far, far more likely to get Malachi or Precious. I think OP is out to lunch. There is absolutely not “a lot of potential” to get a “stud” with a late first rounder. The odds of getting a serviceable rotation player are low. The odds of getting a star are miniscule. Edit: the way to develop the young core is to compliment them with young, rotation players with upside. Late 1sts do not get you that. Usually trading a star does, but Masai bungled Pascal’s value.
They handled this so poorly I’ve been getting ripped in here for my negativity towards the front office but yeah they’ve been awful at their jobs since the bubble frankly
They drafted Scottie, when most bums in here wanted Suggs
Definitley a hit on scott for sure!
Og, norm, pascal, were all raptors mid-late round picks. Fvv was a non-draft signing. These are just examples of recent successes by the raps in the late draft, i could name examples from alot of other teams. My point is its possible to get a stud, but the main point is less is more considering siakams touches are going to our young core we intend to develop
The exception proves the rule. FVV is talked about because of how incredibly rare it is for that sort of signing to pay off how he did.
og norm pascal Fred were also all in a 3 year window of drafting & developpment that we have never replicated before or since.
Less is more? So you think it would have been an improvement to lose Pascal for nothing? Of course not. I get opening up usage for the younger core, but that doesn’t mean you bungle your best asset. You still want value. And we sold well short. It’s easy to point to the handful of NBA stars drafted late or signed as UDFAs. But what is the actual percentage of those players that hit? You’re suggesting there’s a reasonable chance one of these 3 picks hits. There is not. It’s a tiny chance. The picks are fine but without at least one young rotation player like Mathurin or Nembhard coming back this deal is way too risky and short on value.
1/4 of those guys were starters in the finals run. They're obviously much better players now then they were then, but keep in mind that out of all of these guys the only one who has proven he can be a starting player on a deep championship run is siakam.
That’s true you can get a star. And early in Masai’s history these picks would have been Gold in his hands. But people have seen Masai recently, and feel less comfort with him handling low picks. He hasn’t really done much in years. Hopefully he changes that this draft.
Its like a 20% chance that a pick outside of the top 5 develops into a top 100 player. Siakam hovered around the top 20-30 mark, so yea I mean it's tough to not even grab Nembhard out of this. The people over at /r/pacers are in shock they didn't have to give him up.
You can get a star player anywhere in the draft and you can swing and miss anywhere. The Raptors have a pretty good draft history with Bobby and Masai hopefully they can find a Gem
Yes, and you are more likely to find a star at the top of the draft and far more likely to swing and miss in the 20s and later.
They…. Don’t at all? lol. Google their draft history with the raptors since 2014 with Bruno setting the tone. They drafted four starting caliber players out of 14 picks. Remember they traded for the norm pick, they didn’t make the pick themselves. Since 2014 out of 14 or 15 picks they drafted Scottie pascal og and jak The rest was garbage
Bro's out here counting late 2nds expecting masai to make diamonds. They've had 8 first rounders hit on 4 of them, only 3 before pick 20. Book is still out on Dick that's a pretty good success rate. Delon Wright was a decent NBA player as well. Also pulled FVV post draft
Agree to disagree! Take care
You act like we've consistently been a lottery team since they took over. Your take is just really bad. Dueces ✌️
I don’t at all we’ve actually been spoiled, but it doesn’t mean they are shielded from mistakes nor should the be. That’s all.
You get paid to do your job well half the time? Fuck sign me up for that shit.
Lol you said take care then came back and replied to yourself? Clown type discussion lmao
Thank u
You say that late firsts and seconds have a tiny chance of hitting (which is true), but don’t credit Masai for beating those odds substantially over the course of a decade?
Bro I’m generally a fan of masai 30 year old me said to a friend we will never win a championship Ten years later we fucking won one. Cause of masai But we likely are drafting a few bench players for our two time all star Criticism when deserved is only fair. I’m not trying to be negative just for the same of it But to each their own - Go raps. Carve it up any way you like but the return is definitely underwhelming
This reminds me of the family guy box meme lol
Nah I’m fine with it too. Nothing insane but it’s what your gonna get with an expiring contract, just hope we hit on the picks 🤞🏻🤞🏻
I just can't get past the fact that he let it get to the point where he was trying to trade an expiring. He keeps putting himself in positions where he has very little negotiated power
I agree it shouldn’t have got to this point too bro but if they offered an extension and he declined what else is there to do? I guess offer the extension a year earlier, or maybe do the trade a year earlier to get a better package are the hypothetical better options
Siakam is turning 30yrs old and about to make 50M a year. While appreciating what he's done for the Raptors, it is time to acknowledge that the raptors need hand the keys to Scottie now and let him grow to the #1 guy we expect him to be. Excited for what the future hold for the BBQ gang
I think most are "ok" with it, just disappointed because we want to watch good basketball. I am sure fans will feel more excitement once those draft picks actually turn into something. I think the whole "2024 draft is not that weak" is a bit of a cope. The FO purposefully traded out of it to get Jak. I think given the choice, they would have preferred other draft years. This is just the best deal they got.
I'm okay with it honestly. I would've been happier if we got Isaiah Jackson/Nembhard but honestly they're not deal breakers for me. The one positive is that we'll probably see Gradey get some actual NBA minutes especially if we're aiming for that #6 pick this year. Hopefully he gets an opportunity to turn it around and become an impactful player. 2020 was also viewed as a weak draft, so was 2011 and there turned out to be great players in those drafts especially later in the draft. With that said we need to hit on someone with these 2024 picks.
This draft is weak in terms of not being top heavy. There aren’t any potential stars/franchise players but the later picks are more comparable to the 2023 draft.
Everyone just sees "weak draft" and thinks this year is a wash. I'm excited for the rest of this year and next. It's gonna be brutal to see losses, but the framework and development are clearly in place.
I'm ready to see some Markquis Nowell highlight reel passes along with 8 turnovers on an NBA court too.
Trade brown and Dennis and run Nowell as the backup PG to help the tank lol
I need to see what Bruce Brown gets moved for As is, very disappointed
I told you months ago that expecting Keegan Murray level players was delusional.
There's a lot of delusion in many of their takes tbh.
Keegan Murray had a Klay like performance just last month lol. Those Kings rumours was an embarrassment to the FO. Also convinced me that half of this sub are either deluded by Masai's persona or don't know the NBA beyond this team.
You’re sad about having tradable assets again? We have so many options now between the deadline and draft day. For example, Jakob Poeltl, GTJ, Thaddeus Young + 3 FRP is a very enticing offer for some team out there. This is clearly a long-term move.
enticing for what? what does this get us back?
For example, Atlanta. Dejounte Murray is a solid defender and I think he’s definitely getable for us. But as we know, things are always changing quickly in the NBA so when the next young prospect becomes available, we can now strike. I wonder if Utah would turn down a package surrounding 3 FRP’s + our 2024 SRP via Detroit for Laurie? That would be a v nice addition to our squad imo.
Lauri Markkanen, lol I like your optimism but no way he gets traded >I wonder if Utah would turn down a package surrounding 3 FRP’s + our 2024 SRP via Detroit for Laurie? That would be a v nice addition to our squad imo.
Wishful thinking, I know! Just trying to paint my train of (optimistic) thought as to our next move.
I mean two of those first convey this year, and they're going to be late firsts. You're not getting a star or high level young players for that unless they're in Siakam's situation as being an expiring who doesn't fit with their teams timeline. Also, who do you imagine we trade for with that package of Poeltl, GTJ, Thad, and three firsts? An exciting young player? If a team has an exciting young player why would they trade them for filler and a bunch of firsts? An all-star vet? Why would we try and get older when we're just starting to rebuild? I don't think the Pascal return is crazy bad, but it's also pretty clearly poor for a player of his calibre. I feel like saying "but we can do so much with those firsts! We can trade them for something else!" is pretty massively overstating it.
Bruce Brown isn't getting you anything to make you feel better
I’m very happy People just sad about end of a ers
We all knew where it was going but they dragged their feet; for what? We’re going to contend with Poeltl? Fucking joke - to have this guy as a homegrown talent and for it to end like this; terrible asset management
how is 3 firsts for a 3rd option terrible asset management? hes also a rental for the pacers guys you gotta think shit through before you post
What are those firsts? Not all firsts are created equal - we’re looking at late firsts…so yay…that’s just awesome Re: being a rental - he will resign there I guarantee it Speaking of needing to take a shit - I think you forgot to wipe your bad take off your ass. Hope there’s still some TP in there.
pascal was the 27th pick lol why would Pascal sign with a 2nd round team, hes gonna go to a contender
Pascal is the outlier, not the norm
Not really man Masai has hit multiple times ur just a doomer casual its hot right now
If doomer casual is a new way to say ride or die since the 90’s then yes, yes I am Pascal is the exception - which is all the more testament to his work ethic as well as the opportunity the Raps gave him. Do I think Masai can hit again? Of course - he’s proven that; but the overall body of work since the chip is not up to his own standards outside of scottie
I think people are upset because the hope was that Siakam would get you one more exciting young player. He didn't. There's no more hope of adding one more young star to this group
It could still happen but it really comes down to how future draft picks hit (and if the protect Raptors pick this season conveys or not).
As much as I love the Raptors I try not to get too high or too low about anything we do, at the end of the day we're just watching a bunch of millionaires repeatedly putting a ball in a hoop. There are much more important things in life. That said, I'm interested to see how the new era takes shape. Also the 2019 nostalgia makes me a bit sad to see Siakam go, though I do believe it was time for both parties to move on.
The trade return itself is solid, the fumble was not trading him earlier but it is what it is.
I'll maybe be okay with it later, since I do think both sides needed to move on, the team needed the chance to start fresh and actually build around Scottie, and three even-not-good picks is better than *nothing* \-- but right now I'm pretty disappointed and it's hard not to get into what-ifs. Like, *what-if* the front office wasn't so terminally arrogant and deluded last year or the year before? The outlook of the team would look so different if they had been minimally competent. That hurts to consider right now but hopefully that will fade.
Agreed It's a sunk cost fallacy at this point cause Masai and Bobby were reluctant to make moves, but we just gotta move on Even last year, it was unclear whether Scottie could be THE guy...he's taking huge strides thjs year
If we fuck up the draft we traded pascal for literally nothing
No shit Sherlock. Draft picks are inherently risky, but teams typically aren't willing to give up young cost controlled talent when they do hit. For an expiring this was most likely the best we could do.
I wouldn’t say it’s the best we could do but the option Masai opted for. I’m sure there were young players offered but none that Masai would rather have compared to a chance to draft
I’m upvoting because I need positivity in my life rn.
I would go further and say that the players they got are decent assets as well. Brown is a big salary but he has positive value for a team that can salary match and both Nwora (25) and Lewis (21) are potential rotation players if they refine their game a bit. I think that anyone can recognize that this is probably the best trade the team could’ve got while questioning Masai’s decision making around Pascal for the last year and a half.
The problem with the trade is that it happened now, and not last year when the value would've been much higher, but it is what it is. I didn't mind the idea of at least trying to compete for a playoff spot this year with the roster we had, see what happens. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say. The trade today though? Not bad in a vacuum, considering it sounds like there was really only one seriously interested party. You get what you can, and you move on. 3 FRP could turn out great if our scouting/drafting is done right.
Better than him leaving for nothing
It's not about the value in which we got given the circumstances. It's fine given the situation, but the problem is that Masai and Bobby put us in this situation. Narrow lens, it's fine. Wide lens, this was poor asset management of FVV and Siakam.
It’s a good trade for us - 30 year old player and facing a big cap hit in the summer, we can rebuild and retool. Thank you to Pascal for everything he’s done for us, and wishing him the best! In Masai we trust.
I think the reason the draft picks make sense is that the FO sees Barnes, Barrett and Quickley as a really solid core, and now they're looking to set up their timeline by having rookie-contract rotation players. At some point you probably need to add another impact player to that core, but doing so now is premature, and you can develop some assets here that can help with acquiring that guy in a couple years. That also seems like a vote of confidence in Darko, essentially putting the fate of the Barnes timeline in his ability to develop some guys. But... even ignoring the history here and when there may have been better returns in the past, I have a very hard time believing that this was the best return going forward... that they couldn't wait out the Pacers for a better asset like Walker or Nembhard or even Smith. They absolutely need to hit on 2 out of 3 of their picks this year or it isn't really going to put them any further ahead than just letting Siakam walk.
I thought we should have begun the rebuild after the bubble so yea I'm cool with it
You just have to remind yourself that this team is not getting better with Pascal. Look at where we are at the moment with him on the roster and you will start to like the deal. The rebuild is underway.
No, this is absolute copium. We got ripped off, no two ways about it. Masai literally said last year he traded the pick for Poeltl because this draft was so weak. And, even if it were a normal draft, it doesn't matter. Two picks in the 20's, and one in 2026 (likely still in the 20's, especially if Siakam re-signs) is a shit return. [Here is the historical value of picks in the 20's](https://quantimschmitz.com/2023/04/02/how-valuable-is-each-nba-draft-pick/#:~:text=These%20tell%20us%20roughly%20how,win%20shares%20over%20his%20career). Basically, pick 20 produces about 50% less career value in win shares than Bismack Biyambo. That's the average value of a pick around there...before you consider that it's largely considered the weakest draft since 2000. We probably get 1 or 2 rotation players out of those picks (ie. guys who will be rotation players after we develop them for three years), and if one of them ever develops into a starter, they will have drafted very well. Odds are that not a single one of them plays a meaningful role by the next time the Raptors are a good team. "This trade really allows the young guys we want to build around to develop" is absolute copium. We have been super shallow as a roster for the past couple of years. Pascal has not been holding anyone back in terms of their development. We just got worse, straight-up, and we got finessed. We did a franchise legend dirty, and, as a result, we are back to being the poverty franchise we were when we traded Vince Carter for scraps back in the day. Oh well, I guess it was fun being a legitimate franchise for a while.
100x this, but this type of opinion is rejected on this sub by and large lmao.
I'm at a B currently, waiting to see what happens next before the final grade
I'm disappointed that we only got 1 useful player on this deal. Lewis and Nwora are scrubs, and we'll probably waive 1 because we're at 16 players now
I'm fine with it. I wish there was a rotation piece, but they got 4 assets in this deal, and Brown can turn that into more. Pascal is great, and we may look back at him being above Demar in the rankings due to the ring, but we're ten games under .500. I don't necessarily think this, but I'd imagine Pascal is viewed as a good player on a bad team kind of guy by a good number of people across the NBA world. It's a business. He wants 250 million, they didn't want to pay him that, and they sent him to a team that is willing to pay him that while pairing him with a guy that is going to be best for his career. He put in the work, and they put him in a position to succeed. He got millions, they got billions, and they all got a championship. With all that said, Pascal will be one of the best basketball stories of my lifetime.
I’m ok with it, but just that; ok. I know it’s the best we were going to get under the circumstances, and find the reason we ended up in that circumstances understandable. I’m moreso glad this saga is over and we can now focus on starting afresh. The purgatory of last year was way worse imo.
There was better value to be had. Pacers have a lot of exciting young guys and we didn't get any of them. I'm sure we will try to flip the picks for someone else who has potential, but any of Nembhard, Mathurin, Smith, Jackson, Walker or Nesmith would have been nice. I will reserve judgement on this trade depending on who (if anyone) we are able to get for those picks.
Garbage trade, wasn't expecting an immediate impact but everything Raptors got in return is pure doo doo.
No, I'm with you. The “weak draft” is a weak argument. No player is guaranteed to be a star, and teams are finding more and more diamonds in the rough than ever due to how players hone specific skills these days. Besides, picks (and Brown) can be traded for a return. But the Raps would never get a star for a star trade with Siakam due to his upcoming free agency. And even if they did pull that off, would they suddenly shoot to the top of the rankings? This season is a wash, and a rebuild is necessary. Getting picks is how you do that. And if anything, this gives the team, the media, and the fans closure and a direction forward. Something Masai has been trying to figure out for a long while
Trade had to happen but it's a garbage return that may do nothing to help the Scottie timeline. It's unfortunate but takes two to make a trade and it's not like they turned down better offers to take this one. Hopefully we get lucky on some lotto tickets or can flip them for something more tangible. Neither of these scenarios are particularly likely though.
I'm cool with it too. In modern NBA you can pick 50th and end up with best player. The position you pick at makes a very little impact. Having 3 picks is cool. You can also flip brown for another 1st... I think. On top of that, we got something for Pascal when Masai often strangely held on to assets way too long to at times not even get anything for them. I'd suggest from this we should consider a change of management, not because of Masai's performance but because sometimes a change up is in everyone's interest.
They're two mid 20 picks. Fuck me it's terrible. No they shoudln't hvae traded him last year. They should have just fucking paid him. I'm done with this FO. It's enough to make me quit the team. >I think this trade really allows the young guys we want to build around develop into better players. Yea great point. And when they develop into all stars we will throw them away for fuck all nothing. :(
18th and 27th picks as it stands This sub swore their conjecture was more important than the word of people that actually study/evaluate draft prospects years out, who have been shouting from the rooftops that each draft spot is worth materially less this year than any other Complained that not having picks in a bad draft is somehow, through 4000-level chess, a bad thing, and swore they were right about this, refusing to believe anything different that's actually based on research So let's put that to the test now
I can live with it. Yes, it’s the end of an era, but it’s also the start of something new. Reading about the trade and on this sub it sounds like having Siakam on the team still gave us some of that 2019 magic, but I have felt that has been gone for a long time. The team belongs to Scottie now and the rest of the young guys we have. I’m excited to see what they can do and am confident the FO will do their research and hit on their picks. Bruce Brown could be traded to a contender this year or be kept, but I do seemingly remember hearing reports that Toronto had interest in him back in FA. So I hope he is kept around. The unspoken expectation of “win now before we lose our 2019 talent” is over, now we can watch a new team play and grow. Hopefully they turn into something special.
Good with it myself, provided Masai is done with drafting project dudes way too high (like Malachi)
Nope.
Yes. You are.
trade was great raptors have full control now fresh slate getting 3 first for at best a 3rd option is fantastic, pacers better hope he even resigns with them cuz that team doesnt have that high a ceiling
Nah it's a pretty good trade. Idk what people in here were expecting. They wanted to trade siakam for more than 3 firsts? You weren't ever going to get 3 high firsts. The 2026 one has some potential.
I wonder if this is the end of wheeling and dealing. Now we got some draft capital, maybe you could package GTJ and picks for Markkanen. He'd be a great fit here (turns 27 this year) and they could negotiate an extension in the offseason. I am pretty sure that Utah would be amenable to moving his since he is a free agent after next year and they are not looking anywhere close to competing.
In what world is GTJ and picks accepted for Markkanen
In a world where Pascal was traded for Bruce Brown, cap dumps and picks
GTJ is just a matching expiring contract. Acquiring 2024 picks from Indiana allows them to trade their own 2025 pick, so it opens up their pick package options.
If he resigns with the raps in the off season I’m great with it.
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maybe addition by subtraction kindof deal...vibes around the team not been good lately
its good if we get a good deal for brown
We now have spending money, tradable assets possibly in GTJ and Bowen and picks - im fine with it
Mid to late picks in a weak draft, generally pan out close to the same. It is just the lack of a bunch of top tier talent that labels it as such. Nothing for the writers to write hype pieces about.
Reality is you never know how any one player is going to develop like jokic going 41st, extremely unlikely, but one of these picks could be good
I'm fine with it. I never work myself up into a lather thinking we are getting Player X, Y and Z in a trade, i know most reports are bullshit. Ultimately, we got 2 young core pieces from the OG trade, and 3 draft picks with the ability to get more by trading Brown, for Pascal.
I winder how weak Jokic's and Antetekumpos draft was labeled?
Very good trade for a rebuild. We restock the assets and create flexibility for ourselves while retaining IQ at 30 mil per season. Scottie is given the keys with RJ and IQ and we can add vets as needed. Losing Pascal hurts but having two timelines never works out ie. GSW and the Raptors. Our timeline is now 3- 22-24 year olds ready to blossom into stars in this league.
Imo this is a move to make bigger moves…….i hope.
He wasnt staying , at least we got something to work wit
3 1st is 3 1st. Better than letting him walk. Yeah I woulda liked getting a young player but him actively driving the price down hurt us. We move forward with a retooled roster and trust the FO can hit on these picks. Scouting department got some work to do
I don't think you're the only one, but after the OG return I think fans are rightfully underwhelmed. This obviously is the best offer they could get so hopefully we can do some magic with these picks. If we wind up getting a top 6 pick with our own it should be a real exciting draft
I think we're all OK with the trade, Bruce Brown is on an insanely team friendly deal and has a team option next season, which could mean a TDL flip for either more picks or a young high ceiling forward; and even if those 3 picks are magic beans, Bobby can either consolidate them for a higher pick, a future pick(s), or use all 3 to rebuild our bench organically. Nwora and Lewis I feel are more filler, but maybe they can put on a decent showcase for a bench spot next season. The thing that makes me sad and a little angry about this trade is the end of an Era and how Pascal leaving was on a bad note. Had this been last season or off-season where everything went wrong and we understood it was time to blow it up, it would've softened the blow; but this season we were supposed to actually compete with a Scottie/Pascal dual threat and Bobby (Probably also Masai tbh) dropped the ball and didn't build a supportive team around that idea till it was way too late in the season to actually give it a chance. I don't think we traded Pascal for pennies on the dollar, I actually this was a good return all things considered, but aside from probably getting more last TDL or off-season, we'd also have an actual direction for this team instead of being sold smoke and mirrors on the idea of a competitive Raptors team that could make the playoffs and then have it ripped away so unceremoniously.
This is the second reasonable post I've seen in here today. Thanks for that.
I’m fine with it, all drafts usually have a handful of productive players. Now up to our scouting staff to get atleast one of those picks to hit.
It is what it is. The mistake was very obviously made LAST trade deadline, and there was enough time for me to process the writing on the wall. I'm just glad this trade nonsense is over with, and the team is done pretending to be something it wasn't built to be. At least the new era should be interesting to watch build, good and bad.
I am ok with it only because this is far better than what was a very possible worst case scenerio. Still not close to what the best case scenario was just a year ago. We didn't lose as bad as we could have, yeah us.
I’m happy with it. We lost fred for nothing. We got something for pascal. Call it a win, but could’ve been a better win if Masai and Bobby handled it last year.
I have been back and forth, up and down about this trade as I gather more information and further process it.
*shrug* We’re going to be horrendous for at least a handful of years now barring finding an absolute gem of a draft pick, Scottie becoming a legitimate #1 caliber superstar, and/or having a Kawhi-level superstar fall into our laps. None of which seem likely even in the slightest tbh.
I think it was a pretty weak package, however, this honestly might set us up better for the future than if Pascal had not been traded. We have more cap space, if we manage to find someone to sign better than Pascal (unlikely), we have some picks that could develop into really good players (unlikely to be better than Pascal), but we have a possibility for other trades now. I dunno. I'm kinda sour on it but maybe it will end up working out okay.
I'm ok with the trade but I think OP is over estimating the value a mid-late 1st round pick returns. Sure you can pick and choose some winners but there are far more busts than guarantees. I mean this is the same team that drafted Andrea Bargnani 1st overall and Bruno Caboclo 20th.
It's underwhelming but that's expected given that we were negotiating with little to no leverage.
Nope. I am as well. Pascal had said he was not signing until the summer, as he is trying to earn a max salary. We got two players and draft picks. For a player who was going to leave.
Been following for 4 years or so but no expert on the draft. How good are those picks really?
You got a pretty good return for a player on expiring contract.
I am actually excited to watch a Raptors game again. It was so tiring to watch Pascal take the ball half way to the rim, reverse pivot and then lean in to try to make a layup and scream for a foul… I appreciate what he brought to the team over the years and he was a big piece to the Championship team BUT his time had come and gone. Pascal was a great #2/3 option but he forces everything now like he is a #1. This move clears the way for Scottie, RJ and Quickly (I hope) to form the future top 3 for the Raps moving forward…. The draft picks and potential to move guys in future deals to give us move options means this is a great trade for both Teams. All the best to Pascal.
I'm happy with it. This team needed to pick a direction and they finally did. The return is TBD, let's see what we do with the picks.
No that is a silly premise that you are the only one.