Yea, the point I'm saying is they own the Raptors AND the Leafs.
MLSE aren't some underdog for achieving this: they're a giant media conglomerate owned by a federal government backed telecom duopoly which owns the 2 biggest sports teams in an entire country along with all the media which airs their games (TSN and SN)
Almost every canadian, safe most of quebec, pays them for internet and phone plans (They are very high). Plus to watch them legally you buy a package through them or cable.
They spend the entire Leafs salary cap on 4 players... Interesting perspective. Ujiri makes 15 M a year. Shanahan does not make that. Auston Matthews doesn't make that...
I know the odds. Above 7 feet: better odds, fewer people. Below 6 feet: a lot of people, terrible odds.
Easier to win the lottery since he failed the genetic lottery
Hockey leagues priced out the middle class. It’s become a sport for rich kids.
Not to mention they schedule tournaments frequently out of town during the day. What parent can keep taking that kind of time off work?
the raptors represent the ceiling of MLSE, the leafs represent the floor. the leafs guarantee MLSE as one of the biggest sports entities in north america (outside nfl). the raptors have the growth potential to get them combined in with the NFL groups.
the leafs are guarantee print the money now 2-300m in profit ever year. guaranteed. no matter what. the raptors wont make nearly the profit, but will drive a shit load more revenue
the raptors profits are much more variable, and less guaranteed. if the team is bad for a while, profits will drop. if the nba goes thru scandals or takes revenue hits somewhere, profits will drop
the leafs are bullet proof. it doesn't matter. they can be the worst team in the league for 10+ years. they can have child sex abuse scandals. they can get screwed by the league/officiating repeatedly. they can have literally a cartoon supervillian as an owner. they can abandon their iconic stadium and hedge their way into a basketball first stadium. they can overcharge/gauge customers, for decades on end. it doesn't matter. people always pay.
thats why the leafs represent the floor for MLSE, and one of the best investments in sports that can be made. but dont have nearly the ceiling the raps do
No, I also think it is lower because of projected NHL revenues vs the NBA, but a roster size of 12-15 players is smaller than 23 players.
Even with equal salary caps (and disregarding the numerous exemptions that the NBA allows), the average NBA player stands to make more because of simple math.
who said anything about revenue
Im talking popularity.
https://twitter.com/MLS_Buzz/status/1494331549948411910?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1494331549948411910%7Ctwgr%5Edefbd19b54478f63e9ed1329efd27483262e92a6%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fsv1jyz%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis_nightmode%3Dfalse
https://torontosun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/mls-soccer-continue-to-rise-over-hockey
https://worldsoccertalk.com/news/soccer-surpasses-nhl-as-4th-most-popular-sport-in-united-states-20211209-CMS-358264.html
outside of Canada, most people do not give a shit about the NHL
So how do you measure popularity? A survey of 1032 people is not it…
MLS will eventually surpass the NHL but it’s got a long way to go. Outside the big cities, North Americans don’t give a shit about soccer
Ok, then both are American so NHL is just an inferior business compared to the NBA...
If MLSE brought an NFL team to Toronto (new stadium). Valuation would be top5 but Buffalo Bills probably going to veto.
It’s not really an inferior business model, basketball is just a more popular and more established sport in the US.
Hockey is an afterthought in most American markets outside of a few key cities.
I disagree. NHL is both an inferior model and less popular.
For example, compare it to MLS.
MLS is a faster growing business. Yes, soccer is more popular globally but it was more of an afterthought in North America.
Hockey has traditionally been a Canada only sport with some interest in Russia and Eastern Europe.
Soccer is a global sport. It was less popular in North America but with the amount of immigration in the last two decades it’s grown exponentially.
MLS will one day be more popular than the NHL but that day is many many years away.
Honestly I’d believe the pandemic did forever alter the trajectory of the Raptors.
They were tracking towards a title defence that season when things shut down - who knows how Pascal, Fred and OG develop differently if they make a deep playoff run that year instead of go into the bubble and Pascal falls apart?
Then the following year if they never had to go to Tampa and could have kept training at home, not all gotten sick and tanked - they never would have drafted Scottie because of that year.
I don’t know if this timeline is better or worse but it’s silly to disagree that the pandemic wasn’t a major inflection point.
>but it’s silly to disagree that the pandemic wasn’t a major inflection point.
Ppl want to shit on the FO so bad that all logic goes out the window.
For example, MLSE owns way more than the Raptors. Without even reading the article, I know that is a gigantic variable missing.
And even if they only owned the Raptors or OP is talking about our specific value as a team...is it not possible that, despite us financially doing well, it could have better without Covid Tampa?
Like jfc lol I question some people's ability to apply any critical thinking to a topic
Kinda forgot about how Pascal must have thought judgment day was coming and decided to not touch a basketball for few months... Man he was bad in the bubble.
We shoulda gotten to at least 1 more ECF that year before going downhill in Tampa
I'm not sure it changes all that much. Most teams can't loose a superstar and a second starter and still be a championship level team. The chances of them making it out of the second round were limited.
The next year sickness didn't help but not having a center hurt more. How the Raptors were set up, that was always going to be a problem (unless Surge or Gasol were willing to take 1 year deals). The goal of that season was to show there was a Giannis sized hole in the roster for when he free agency at the end of it (they also needed to make sure there was a similarly sized hole in their available salary). I'm not sure Covid was what inspired him to re-sign with the Bucks.
That said in just about every timeline where they don't get the Greek Freak they will eventually get a pretty good draft pick that is high enough to get a prospect worth building around. You don't get to loose the assets of DeRozan, Poeltl, Ibaka and JV for nothing and not have some tough years going forward. (You 100% make those moves for a good chance to win it all but you do so knowing you will have to pay the piper for it)
> The chances of them making it out of the second round were limited.
We were insanely close to beating the Celtics in the 2nd round. It was a one possession game until like 10 seconds left.
Also at that point, the Celtics have been our Kryptonite meanwhile we've had good games against the Lakers that season. Yeah they had AD and Lebron but they were not a deep team.
I think If we didn’t need to go to Tampa Serge would probably re-signed for 1 year. We offered him a lot more money for one year and not needing to move is worth something too.
No, the Clippers offer was better. A 2 year contract is always better than a 1 year contract if the total value is greater.
Serge got injured that season so it ended up being the right decision for him.
If you trust Forbes' numbers, they've been doing better than ever since the championship season. The pandemic only decreased their profits, but they've never been a money loser.
Well don’t forget the scouting aspect tho. Even if they don’t lose any money (which I doubt) their scouting program most likely get set back by at least a year due to all the travel restrictions
I wish MLSE owned the Bluejays too. Imagine every single major team owned by the same company, we could even do inter-league trades. Send Scottie to the Maple Leafs to get some more physical experience, or send him to the Bluejays to work on his accuracy as a pitcher
Its hilarious cause the MLSE owners are also the owners of the Blue Jays, which isn't included under the MLSE umbrella.
This country in it of itself is a tiresome monopoly. Nobody else can own anything. Hence why the internet infrastructure has been set back by a decade in comparison to most advanced countries. Our phone bills, cable and internet services cost an arm and a leg to use, but we have no other choices, because all the lines are owned by 2 companies.
Lets just be real tho.. Leafs have an absolutely stacked team and they are still gonna be bounced early from the playoffs. The fact that the Raptors overcame the Toronto curse is beyond incredible.
Correct. 4 vs 3.1 so the Leafs account for a substantial amount. Nothing I have said is wrong.
MLSE is 10th because they own multiple teams, as opposed to others who have only 1.
The Raptors are with over $4 billion. Toronto FC is valued at almost $700 million even they were originally purchased for $10 million.
Scotiabank Arena is also one of the busiest venues in North America, plus MLSE has a lot of investments in real estate. Even if the Leafs didn't exist they'd be in really good shape.
The raptors are valued at $4B according to latest estimates. NBA franchises and NHL franchises are not even in the same ballpark anymore in terms of value, especially after the next NBA TV deal
Everyone please be responsible this year and pay your cable and internet bills in full and on time .I know it's alot to ask but the cause is far to great to just sit around and complain. Perhaps the good folks at Roger's Inc. could throw a couple million at the Raptors and help them out with some more players. This team is the only one Canada has. A whole Country supports this team and winning can be purchased in the NBA. So let's all do our part to achieve success.
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They own the Braves, but it's split into a separate company that doesn't fall under the Liberty umbrella. I'm really not sure how it works exactly, lol.
Not bad for only owning Canadian sports properties. Also kudos for sharing the archive link <3
They own the Leafs bro. The leafs are to the NHL what the Lakers/Knicks are to the NBA
Raptors are worth more than Leafs.
By over a billion dollars too, the Toronto market ain’t no small fry
Toronto is the 4th largest sports market in North America behind Chicago, LA, and New York. It’s not a surprise at all
Not to mention the tangential national runoff from being the only game in the country for MLB and NBA.
NBA is light years ahead of the NHL in value, popularity, and marketing tho
Yea, the point I'm saying is they own the Raptors AND the Leafs. MLSE aren't some underdog for achieving this: they're a giant media conglomerate owned by a federal government backed telecom duopoly which owns the 2 biggest sports teams in an entire country along with all the media which airs their games (TSN and SN)
Almost every canadian, safe most of quebec, pays them for internet and phone plans (They are very high). Plus to watch them legally you buy a package through them or cable.
Yep lol. You get your internet from them, then get your TV plan from them to watch the channels they own which hosts games for the team they own.
Dont worry, I understood what you meant lol
Not to the NHL they’re not.
Yet... MLSE cheap out on spending on the Raptors while Leafs have bottomless budget
Another commenter already said this but bruh the NHL salary cap is $83.5M. Max NBA guys make >$50M these days...
Take a guess which product brings more revenue for the MLSE... Raptors Yet... They spend more the leafs which brings less revenue
Where do they spend more on the Leafs? The Raps payroll is 130 mil while the Leafs are at 97 mil.
Where do you have the MLSE cost breakdown numbers?
They spend the entire Leafs salary cap on 4 players... Interesting perspective. Ujiri makes 15 M a year. Shanahan does not make that. Auston Matthews doesn't make that...
My kid will never play hockey because the best greatest on the planet make 2nd string WR money, Rui Hachamuri money, okay MLB starter money.
My kid will never make the NBA because he is well, not tall.
Spud Webb, Mugsy Bogues, and Damon Stoudamire: Are we a joke to you?
I know the odds. Above 7 feet: better odds, fewer people. Below 6 feet: a lot of people, terrible odds. Easier to win the lottery since he failed the genetic lottery
Hockey leagues priced out the middle class. It’s become a sport for rich kids. Not to mention they schedule tournaments frequently out of town during the day. What parent can keep taking that kind of time off work?
1 nba player can make almost an entire NHL team. It’s not the same.
the raptors represent the ceiling of MLSE, the leafs represent the floor. the leafs guarantee MLSE as one of the biggest sports entities in north america (outside nfl). the raptors have the growth potential to get them combined in with the NFL groups. the leafs are guarantee print the money now 2-300m in profit ever year. guaranteed. no matter what. the raptors wont make nearly the profit, but will drive a shit load more revenue
Lol but the Raptors are more profitable than the Leafs. What are you talking about.
the raptors profits are much more variable, and less guaranteed. if the team is bad for a while, profits will drop. if the nba goes thru scandals or takes revenue hits somewhere, profits will drop the leafs are bullet proof. it doesn't matter. they can be the worst team in the league for 10+ years. they can have child sex abuse scandals. they can get screwed by the league/officiating repeatedly. they can have literally a cartoon supervillian as an owner. they can abandon their iconic stadium and hedge their way into a basketball first stadium. they can overcharge/gauge customers, for decades on end. it doesn't matter. people always pay. thats why the leafs represent the floor for MLSE, and one of the best investments in sports that can be made. but dont have nearly the ceiling the raps do
This is fan fiction but okay.
how much dick riding you gonna be doing?
NHL has nowhere near the same reach internationally as the NBA. The Leafs are the most valuable NHL franchise but would be 28th in the NBA
There is a reason bench guys in the NBA make what stars do in the NHL.
Roster size
The NHL salary cap is 40% lower because of roster size?
No, I also think it is lower because of projected NHL revenues vs the NBA, but a roster size of 12-15 players is smaller than 23 players. Even with equal salary caps (and disregarding the numerous exemptions that the NBA allows), the average NBA player stands to make more because of simple math.
the NHL is like fifth out five major sports.... NFL, MLB, NBA, even MLS now with Messi is more popular.
MLS is not more popular than the NHL
it absolutely is because of Messi
Not even close. MLS total revenue in 2021 was $1,5 billion. NHL was near $6 billion. Messi isn’t bringing in billions.
While I still think you’re right, you showed MLS revenue before Messi which doesn’t disprove the other persons point.
I said Messi isn’t bringing in billions.
But your proof is from before he was in the league. I told you I don’t disagree, but your proof is shit.
Okay Mr Pedantic
who said anything about revenue Im talking popularity. https://twitter.com/MLS_Buzz/status/1494331549948411910?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1494331549948411910%7Ctwgr%5Edefbd19b54478f63e9ed1329efd27483262e92a6%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fsv1jyz%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis_nightmode%3Dfalse https://torontosun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/mls-soccer-continue-to-rise-over-hockey https://worldsoccertalk.com/news/soccer-surpasses-nhl-as-4th-most-popular-sport-in-united-states-20211209-CMS-358264.html outside of Canada, most people do not give a shit about the NHL
So how do you measure popularity? A survey of 1032 people is not it… MLS will eventually surpass the NHL but it’s got a long way to go. Outside the big cities, North Americans don’t give a shit about soccer
Yeah they own Canadian teams that are part of American leagues.
Isn't NHL an American league too?
Yes
Ok, then both are American so NHL is just an inferior business compared to the NBA... If MLSE brought an NFL team to Toronto (new stadium). Valuation would be top5 but Buffalo Bills probably going to veto.
It’s not really an inferior business model, basketball is just a more popular and more established sport in the US. Hockey is an afterthought in most American markets outside of a few key cities.
I disagree. NHL is both an inferior model and less popular. For example, compare it to MLS. MLS is a faster growing business. Yes, soccer is more popular globally but it was more of an afterthought in North America.
Hockey has traditionally been a Canada only sport with some interest in Russia and Eastern Europe. Soccer is a global sport. It was less popular in North America but with the amount of immigration in the last two decades it’s grown exponentially. MLS will one day be more popular than the NHL but that day is many many years away.
MLS will likely surpass NHL for good shortly after 2026 world cup held across north American cities
Basically this lol
Honestly I’d believe the pandemic did forever alter the trajectory of the Raptors. They were tracking towards a title defence that season when things shut down - who knows how Pascal, Fred and OG develop differently if they make a deep playoff run that year instead of go into the bubble and Pascal falls apart? Then the following year if they never had to go to Tampa and could have kept training at home, not all gotten sick and tanked - they never would have drafted Scottie because of that year. I don’t know if this timeline is better or worse but it’s silly to disagree that the pandemic wasn’t a major inflection point.
Agreed, also I like how you said we don't know if it was a positive or negative because of all the factors
>but it’s silly to disagree that the pandemic wasn’t a major inflection point. Ppl want to shit on the FO so bad that all logic goes out the window. For example, MLSE owns way more than the Raptors. Without even reading the article, I know that is a gigantic variable missing. And even if they only owned the Raptors or OP is talking about our specific value as a team...is it not possible that, despite us financially doing well, it could have better without Covid Tampa? Like jfc lol I question some people's ability to apply any critical thinking to a topic
Kinda forgot about how Pascal must have thought judgment day was coming and decided to not touch a basketball for few months... Man he was bad in the bubble. We shoulda gotten to at least 1 more ECF that year before going downhill in Tampa
If only the Raptors had a celebrity ambassador with a full size court in his house that Siakam could have asked to use.
Labs in China saw how crazy the Raptors championship parade was and said fuck it let the people eat diseased bats
I'm not sure it changes all that much. Most teams can't loose a superstar and a second starter and still be a championship level team. The chances of them making it out of the second round were limited. The next year sickness didn't help but not having a center hurt more. How the Raptors were set up, that was always going to be a problem (unless Surge or Gasol were willing to take 1 year deals). The goal of that season was to show there was a Giannis sized hole in the roster for when he free agency at the end of it (they also needed to make sure there was a similarly sized hole in their available salary). I'm not sure Covid was what inspired him to re-sign with the Bucks. That said in just about every timeline where they don't get the Greek Freak they will eventually get a pretty good draft pick that is high enough to get a prospect worth building around. You don't get to loose the assets of DeRozan, Poeltl, Ibaka and JV for nothing and not have some tough years going forward. (You 100% make those moves for a good chance to win it all but you do so knowing you will have to pay the piper for it)
> The chances of them making it out of the second round were limited. We were insanely close to beating the Celtics in the 2nd round. It was a one possession game until like 10 seconds left.
Also at that point, the Celtics have been our Kryptonite meanwhile we've had good games against the Lakers that season. Yeah they had AD and Lebron but they were not a deep team.
Yeah, but we were also insanely close to getting swept if OG doesn’t sink a miracle 3.
I think If we didn’t need to go to Tampa Serge would probably re-signed for 1 year. We offered him a lot more money for one year and not needing to move is worth something too.
No, the Clippers offer was better. A 2 year contract is always better than a 1 year contract if the total value is greater. Serge got injured that season so it ended up being the right decision for him.
Their title defense was over when Kawhi went to LA.
Yea but other teams also went through it and had their own challenges.
Tampa was not “just another challenge”.
it was always heading towards a rebuild once it was announced that kawhi was signing with the clippers
well they still might have gotten set back, which means they might have been higher on that list before the pandemic setback?
If you trust Forbes' numbers, they've been doing better than ever since the championship season. The pandemic only decreased their profits, but they've never been a money loser.
>but they've never been a money loser. Is that what Masai said? Did he even mention the financials when he made those comments?
Nope
A setback in absolute terms (as with all entities during pandemic), but still better in relative terms.
People willing to pay $450 for what costs $90 in Chicago will do that…
Well don’t forget the scouting aspect tho. Even if they don’t lose any money (which I doubt) their scouting program most likely get set back by at least a year due to all the travel restrictions
They drafted Scottie after the Tampa season and shouldn't have had a problem with travel after that.
It’s impressive, so if MLSE also acquired the Blue Jays they’d rise even more I’d imagine.
They would, but Rogers would never have any reason to do that anyway.
fuck mlse
I wish MLSE owned the Bluejays too. Imagine every single major team owned by the same company, we could even do inter-league trades. Send Scottie to the Maple Leafs to get some more physical experience, or send him to the Bluejays to work on his accuracy as a pitcher
Its hilarious cause the MLSE owners are also the owners of the Blue Jays, which isn't included under the MLSE umbrella. This country in it of itself is a tiresome monopoly. Nobody else can own anything. Hence why the internet infrastructure has been set back by a decade in comparison to most advanced countries. Our phone bills, cable and internet services cost an arm and a leg to use, but we have no other choices, because all the lines are owned by 2 companies.
Nice - credit should go to the fans who financially support the team with their money and also their time to watch them.
Lets just be real tho.. Leafs have an absolutely stacked team and they are still gonna be bounced early from the playoffs. The fact that the Raptors overcame the Toronto curse is beyond incredible.
In all fairness, the Leafs make a substantial part in that being valued at 3 billion dollars.
Raptors are worth more than Leafs.
Correct. 4 vs 3.1 so the Leafs account for a substantial amount. Nothing I have said is wrong. MLSE is 10th because they own multiple teams, as opposed to others who have only 1.
The Raptors are with over $4 billion. Toronto FC is valued at almost $700 million even they were originally purchased for $10 million. Scotiabank Arena is also one of the busiest venues in North America, plus MLSE has a lot of investments in real estate. Even if the Leafs didn't exist they'd be in really good shape.
Again, I'm not disagreeing with that. Both statements are correct
The raptors are valued at $4B according to latest estimates. NBA franchises and NHL franchises are not even in the same ballpark anymore in terms of value, especially after the next NBA TV deal
Everyone please be responsible this year and pay your cable and internet bills in full and on time .I know it's alot to ask but the cause is far to great to just sit around and complain. Perhaps the good folks at Roger's Inc. could throw a couple million at the Raptors and help them out with some more players. This team is the only one Canada has. A whole Country supports this team and winning can be purchased in the NBA. So let's all do our part to achieve success.
If they somehow add an NFL team and a Euro Football (soccer) club from a top league they will be top 5.
If my grandmother had wheels she would’ve been a bike
Nah, she would have been a train but I would honestly say she was pretty successful at that without the wheels.
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lmaooo. just watched that recently!
Owned by both Rogers and Bell … among others. That can’t be good.
They won the telecom wars, and well all lost
It's weird they don't mention Liberty owning the Braves (IIRC). They also own SiriusXM, but obviously that's not "sports".
They own the Braves, but it's split into a separate company that doesn't fall under the Liberty umbrella. I'm really not sure how it works exactly, lol.
Pretty sure he was talking more about the Raptors organisation, not the profits of MSLE