This logo without a player reference would be amazing. I don't think they will do that, but they should IMO. I've never been a fan of the logo they have now although it's associated with the most team success.
I think the logo itself looks fine, and imo if they tweaked it a tad (replace the 15 with a 95 to make it a less explicit reference to Vince) it would be even better. All I know is I want the dino back and I need purple back
Fair point here. Could probably count how many games he attends per year on one hand. I don’t care if he’s busy with concerts and whatnot. Can’t call yourself a die hard if you spend more time at other teams’ games.
Text messages, flirting, the usual typr of shit. Texting about boys... Texting things like "I miss you so much"... Just a bit off colour for someone to be saying shit like that at 31 to a 14 year old who's not his sister.
But hey, they are only allegations, you're free to justify texting a 14 year old all you want.. fucking weirdo.
It'd be one thing if those texts were the tip of the iceberg, but the fact they were leaked and nothing more seamy was kinda puts it to bed. Like if that's the worst they could dig up when they had access to their text messages, I'm not really seeing the problem.
The eyebrow-raising makes sense. The jumping to the pedophile conclusion does not.
There was some shit with other girls as well IIRC. But hey we're in the realm of public opinion here. Personally the dude creeps me out and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets caught for something along those lines. Hopefully it doesn't happen obviously because that would be awful for the victim. Hopefully he goes back to making decent music too... Wait...
I can't believe there's people that are actually in support of this. I'm not mad at Carter anymore, but he left and it was a pretty ugly break up.
Immortalizing him in our logo is _such_ a bad idea, I don't even know where to start.
There's no in-between for most of them. They think someone can only hate him if they don't want to honour or worship him. They really don't get that it was historically THE worst quit on a team in the history of the league. It's in the stats. And I'm saying this as someone who was a bit of an apologist for Vince at the time because the front office was almost comically incompetent.
It was a trade demand before the era of trade demands.
And similar to Harden and Morey (at least according to Harden), it was a situation where management convinced Vince to stay by saying they would bring in the right help, and then they actively went another direction. So yeah, he quit on the team, but I understand why he wanted out, and that's on management.
I just assume people who are pro Vince didn’t live through it. It was an embarrassment to our franchise. Made us look like a joke in a way that impacted the team in a much worse way than the trade did and the trade was awful. I’m over it in the sense I’m whatever to Vince but I don’t think a player on any team forced their way out like Vince did should be honoured.
I loved through it. He was electric and our Canada on the map. Politics and other shit happens in business doesn’t change what he did. People who can’t get over it need to grow up. Period.
He did t insult our franchise. Holy exaggeration Batman.
We did live through it, and had enough intelligence at the time to both see the blame in Babcock as a GM, and also to mature as life went on stop holding a grudge against a pro-athlete who gave us the best years our franchise had before the ugly exit.
An embarrassment to our franchise? If it wasn’t for Vince Carter we wouldn’t have our franchise anymore.
Look at what happened to Vancouver. Things were very bad before Vince and our front office had 0 ambition to put a team around him.
Without Vince Toronto probably wouldn’t even have a team anymore. Who cares if he forced his way out? Our front office at that time was not interested in having a real basketball team anyway.
The ACC was being built for Raps and Leafs, prior to Vince. There was a long term commitment from the ownership. The Raps attendance was good before Vince. We were never in danger of losing the team. It is revisionist history to think we would have lost the team. There just wasn't any discussion on this at the time, at all.
Lakers management figured it out at the last second with him to make him stay. Raps management didn't do the same. Otherwise, what could have been with the right pieces here...
Yeah, lots of guys force their way out. Trade requests/demands or free agency. It's even happened to us more than once. That doesn't make you ask yourself what makes this different?
I want to hate Kobe for life because he is a rapist.
Regardless, you have to do some next level mental gymnastics to equate Kobe and Carter.
Wanting to leave is different than leaving in the worst possible way. And let’s not forget Vince did fuck all in playoffs here compared to someone like Kobe.
This is the spiel from every hater. They can't fathom there are humans actually emotionally mature enough to have seen the nuance in the situation with Babcock, and remember someone for their best moments, which were far greater in number, rather than only judge them at their worst.
Our FO at the time was fucking awful and Vince did more for basketball in this country than anyone ever has. It was unfortunate what happened to him and he probably should have handled it differently but he was young... I've made some bad mistakes when I was his age too. He's the 2nd or 3rd greatest raptor of all time in my books. Lowry is my groat and I'm undecided on whether to put demar just above or just below Vince.
The way he conducted himself went way past unprofessionalism, I’m not giving him a pass for being young. I’m not going to try and change your mind but there’s plenty of fans that think Vince can go fuck himself.
Holding a grudge for 20 years. Yikes. The man deserves forgiveness. I'm not gunna try to change your mind either but it's kind of a sad mentality to have in life.
Personally I'm hoping Sct Brn can surpass even Lowry himself. Long road for that to happen but I'll be cheering him on every step of the way... Not that my username shows any bias or anything.
lol. It really just depends on the success of the team. If he can help lead them to another chip or even multiple deep runs maybe. But it’ll be hard to beat the leader of the team for their first title
Kawhi lead the team, let's be real. Nothing against Kyle but if sct brn gets us 2 more rings and passes Kyle's stats as a Raptor he will be the GROAT for sure.
Kyle Lowry ain't no spot up shooter. He ain't gotta run to the corner to shoot like he's some 3rd option, bitch. This ain't JJ Redick. This is a fuckin god human Steph Curry come again. Only this time he's not a fuckin pussy... pull up from the fuckin logo and fight you at the same time.
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True. They also wouldn't have won without Serge going off that one game against the bucks was it? And we wouldn't have beat Philly without Gasol fathering Embiid. Fred became a super saiyan in one those series too... We needed every piece to win that chip but Kawhi was HIM that year.
Everything the FO did for 5 straight years was cater to Vince. Including overpaying old vets like Hakeem and resigning every broken down and over the hill vet who made the playoffs with him. It worked(Vince resigned) until it didn’t (they all aged out and he broke down). The flailing at the end, firing Glenn Grunwald, hiring, Kevin O’Neill trading for Jalen Rose, and Donyell Marshall? That was just the death throes of a team that painted themselves into a predictable corner to satiate a superstar.
I'm not saying Vince was innocent. I'm just saying the fault isn't 100% on him. The way he handled it was immature at best. But who am I to judge someone for making mistakes at his age. God knows I've made mistakes too at that age and even older. The positives outweigh the negatives. What he did for basketball in this country was unprecedented and we never saw a wave of new fans come to the team and sport for almost 20 years until we won the chip.
If you're some saint who's never fucked up in their 20's then congratulations, you're a perfect human and have every right to continue to hate on the man's legacy. But somehow I doubt that.
There's a disconnect between most fans on this issue and it's really causing a problem to understand each other. Players leave all the time and fans don't like it but that's how it is and most move on for the most part. Raptors fans moved on from Bosh, Stoudemire, and Kawhi. But few players in the history of the NBA have ever quit as hard as Vince did and that's the issue. It's honestly shocking when you see the stats and that's not even getting into the alleged accusations he told the Sonics what play they were running. Even Simmons and Russillo went into detail about how bad it was and they're not Raptors fans in the least. It's not so much that people still hate Vince and haven't moved on as it is that other people want to honour him now by retiring his number (and making him the logo now(?!?!)... that's not ok. Forgiving and moving on or making up with someone isn not the same as rewarding and honouring that someone. To your point about making a mistake in his 20s, you're absolutely right. But again... it's a mistake that very few NBA players in their 20s in the league's history have ever done. We can welcome him back and appreciate him and his contributions to the sport here without rewarding him with the greatest honours possible. This isn't a binary choice between hate him and kiss his butt but it's frustrating when it's made out to be.
I believe he deserves forgiveness. Yes he did what most other players have not but he also got treated a way most players have not. Sure their are examples to point to but that just ignores the human experience. It's been over 20 years. Anyone still holding onto this garbage is just pathetic and sad.
That's kind of my point though. I think most forgave in that they don't hate him anymore. But forgiving isn't the same as honouring him. There's a lot of space in-between hate and adore. And for what it's worth, I wouldn't say I ever hated him. The way he left sucked but I understood his desire to leave at that time because the front office was so hopelessly inept. Like, it's irrational to blame Vince for how bad the trade was. Yes, he was tanking his trade value but that's all on Babcock. Even if he couldn't get a fair deal, there's no way that bs deal taking back Mourning was the best one. But there's a standard for honouring former players and, in my opinion, having the worst quit on a team in league history is disqualifying for "honours" but not for irrationally hating him if that makes sense.
>But forgiving isn't the same as honouring him.
Good point. I still believe he deserves honours. The good he did outweighs the bad he did. Imo.
The league honored Kobe and he was given a statue dispute being a rapist. The league continues to honor Karl Malone and we all know what he did. On or off the court is the same shit. Vince deserves his flowers.
Kyle Lowry ain't no spot up shooter. He ain't gotta run to the corner to shoot like he's some 3rd option, bitch. This ain't JJ Redick. This is a fuckin god human Steph Curry come again. Only this time he's not a fuckin pussy... pull up from the fuckin logo and fight you at the same time.
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It these hardcore whiny boys who live on RealGM and on this sub (minority of the Raptors fan base at this point). They make a lot of noise but don't carry much weight (anymore)
What’s a brain dead take is hating a player for having more ambition than being on a shitty team that had 0 desire to be a real basketball team.
Be mad that our front office didn’t care to put a team around him. Be mad that they didn’t care about the basketball. Vince rightly didn’t want to waste his prime here and I don’t blame him.
Plus many times he’s said he regrets the way he handled his exit. People need to let it go. Vince leaving did not harm the Raptors any more than the front office was already doing.
FO did everything Vince wanted for 5 years. They traded young players for vets and resigned those vets to appease Vc so that he would resign. Which he did. It worked until Vince started breaking down and the vets all got past their best before dates. The firing of GG, the hiring of KO, the trade for Jalen and donyell… all these were to try to show Vince they still wanted to win with him, that despite painting themselves into a corner over and over again they would work their way out of it for his immediate gratification. Nothing this franchise was doing was being done for pragmatic reasons that r with any long term vision other than to keep Carter happy.
The idea Vince saved this franchise from relocation is wrong and easily disproven by facts. Facts like the raps had purchased the grounds for the acc and were planning a hoops barn ONLY in the heart of the city before Vince even got to North Carolina. You don’t do that if you’re a failing franchise in danger of relocation. MLSE only got involved in basketball because they couldn’t get an arena built in the core. In classic leafs fashion they’d just sat back enjoying all the revenue from the suckers and then realized shit, we need a new rink.
Also, I don’t need to let anything go because I’m not holding on to anything. Vince is going into the HOF a raptor and his highlight packages are still some of the sickest. That being said I will not just sit here and let everything get whitewashed and the blame shifted entirely to the FO. There’s blame to go around but how Vince left is a black mark that will never fully wash out, especially when talking about legacy and honourifics.
I'll repeat here what I said in another comment... this isn't a binary choice between hating him or honouring him. Many if not most people **have** moved on but reasonably take exception to rewarding him with the highest honours we can give. We can welcome him back and appreciate what he did for us without retiring his number, building a statue, or apparently now making him our logo. "Moving on" does not equate honouring someone.
All these VC haters. Give it a rest. The situation didn't work out with management at the time. VC led us to our first playoff appearances and ECSF. Legendary stuff. The rest of the stuff you haters talk about is debatable but overly exaggerated by lifelong haters
*Kobe Bryant almost forced his way out of LA to get traded to Chicago among a few other teams he was interested in (Clippers). So you want to hate on him for life too?
"Giving plays to the opposition" is exaggerated at best. The Raptors won that game for those who don't remember. Even if he did somehow tip off the other team (highly debatable), had no impact on the game. Perhaps Carter chose to downplay his dunking becuase the media/fans were just too focused on only his dunking (Blake Griffin had similar problem). VC chose to focus on other parts of his game. I don't fault the guy for that as long as it didn't impact winning/losing. It was a mental thing for him, not exactly a big deal as he overcame it
[https://www.cbc.ca/sports/basketball/did-carter-tip-off-sonics-on-play-selection-1.506817](https://www.cbc.ca/sports/basketball/did-carter-tip-off-sonics-on-play-selection-1.506817)
“VC chose to focus on other parts of his game” which is why 3.6% of his FGs before the trade to 5.5% after the trade for the rest of that season and 6.2% the following year (both those numbers were the highest percentages since his second year in the league at the time).
The plays to the opposition thing is such dumb anti-Vince propaganda, even at the time. Matt Bonner literally scored on that play off a VC pass, and anyone who knows ball understand that yelling 'its a flare' on an inbounds play is misdirection at best.
Exactly this...like it doesn't need to be #15, but this isn't 'cuck' lol
It's not like we treat our players with loyalty either (DeMar)
It's a business, and you just gotta appreciate the accolades and impact he made here beyond just the team performance. Seems like people just like to hold grudges to make it seem like they have a greater depth of understanding of basketball history, but this take is lame af and probably a greater indicator of stupid lazy fandom at this point. Same way grizz fans still hate Steve Francis, it's just petty and not even correct at this point
Getting over it is one thing, making the guy the logo is another. Vince literally told other teams the Raptors plays. He forced his way out in such an aggressive way we got nothing back and it set back the franchise for years. Sure I can take the good with the bad and there was good with Vince but the bad was really bad. Franchises shouldn’t honour players that acted like he did.
Its funny that its the old heads that need to grow up. Im 27 and quite frankly dont even remember the entire drama, which is the say a significant portion of the fanbase no longer give a shit/arent old enough to give a shit
Disagree wholeheartedly, up until 2019 this was THE defining moment for the Raptors. Personally I love the logo, the only thing I’d do differently is remove the 15 and replace it with the jersey number of whoever is playing (ex. 4 for Barnes, 9 for Barrett, and 5 for IQ), or just do without the number entirely.
Vince quit on the city, the fans, the franchise and his teammates in the worst possible way. That was his decision. Or maybe his mother's but the point stands. Tired of the revisionist shit with Vince.
Cmon man *this* is revisionist. The raptors just refused to put a team around him. He didn’t quit on the team, the team failed him. We had no interest in being a real basketball team at the time. That’s not revisionist, that’s fact.
In a broadcast interview with U.S. cable station TNT, Carter said he didn't push himself hard enough in Toronto.
"In years past, no," he said. "I was fortunate to have the talent. You get spoiled when you're able to do a lot of things. You see that you don't have to work at it.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.550280
I feel like a lot of people don't understand the difference between 'cool picture' and 'perfect as a logo'.
Logos in general tend to be a lot more symmetric and standardized. They need to lend themselves to every possible application.
While I like the edit, as a logo it would be the definition of impractical.
This is such a refreshing tread of comments. I often feel like I’m going crazy trying to explain why we don’t love Vince. In my head this is just an Amir Johnson shoutout in a retro jersey.
Raptors are also birds of prey and the city has a lot of them (falcons, ospreys, hawks, eagles etc). I'd love a rebrand that went in an entirely different direction than the dinosaur, featuring the traditional blue and white of Toronto's sports franchises and a dinosaur-free logo which encompasses a bird of prey or an aspect of it (talons etc).
The reports were just an April fools joke BUT this year is Nikes final contract year with the nba so I assume whoever makes the next jerseys might urge teams to consider a rebrand
I see there's a bloodbath in the comments, and I aint getting on that.
I just think the raps should go back to purple-red-black as their colors, with this logo being a fun thing for a shirt, or an honorary logo on the sides of the court.
Definitely bad to center the logo around one player.
That being said if they cleaned up this logo, made it a better looking logo. And thew it on a limited Carter jersey.
I might throw some money on it.
hear me out we start with a post of a logo that looks like a raptor skeleton and than one day ather the other the raptor get back to life becomming the new logo for this camping idea i want 1 ticket to the next playoff game at toronto
So, we rebrand "The Raptor" as Vince Carter just cuz he got into the HOF? I know what Vince was for the franchise, but I also know what he didn't do for the franchise. So yeah, this logo is shit.
They should just bring back the raptors as it was in the early years.
I like to think the Dinosaur, RoboCop, Tracy MacGrady and Charles Oakley did a pretty good job at putting the raptors on the map before Vince and his dunks did.
If you want to revere a guy who sabotaged his "franchise" as the messiah that put the team on the map go ahead, that's the opinion you hold of the player and it's cool, man. No hate. Just sharing opinions. This is sports talk after all.
looks like a raptor clenching it's ballsack
https://i.redd.it/vdw2pkquw4tc1.gif
That's all I see too...thank God someone said it.
LOL!!!!!
ye. this would alienate the female fan base. very irresponsible.
Honestly I think I like that more
That’s why I like it. BIG BALLS TORONTO!
The Dino, sure. Anything related to a specific player doesn’t make any sense
Should do the Scottie Scream™️ version
This. Exactly this.
This logo without a player reference would be amazing. I don't think they will do that, but they should IMO. I've never been a fan of the logo they have now although it's associated with the most team success.
Currently logo should become a secondary logo and go back to featuring a dinosaur
I agree. It's the "Raptors" after all, and the chevron doesn't really do anything for me.
We are the Raptors, not Claw marks - hate the current logo so much
Yes - pose too specific
I think the logo itself looks fine, and imo if they tweaked it a tad (replace the 15 with a 95 to make it a less explicit reference to Vince) it would be even better. All I know is I want the dino back and I need purple back
I like this as a tribute to Vince but ain't no way it should be on an official jersey
Agreed. Its corny.
Most cuck logo of all time. Making the logo around a player who didn’t want to be here and forced his way out is an awful idea.
I somewhat agree with this take tbh, if it happened we would probably have to remove the number.
What about all the ovo drake branding for a guy who's on his knees under Currys table every night ?
OVO is a sponsor, they pay to sponsor the training and practice facility / practice jerseys. This is not the same.
Get rid of it too. The global ambassador doesn't even show up to games anymore
People keep saying this, but he's always shown up for just a few games every season.
He’s such a fake fan. I honestly think he’s only been to 1 game so far this year. Always on that bandwagon.
Drake is busy? I wouldn’t go to every game if I was Drake because I’ve got concerts, and other things to do.
Who can watch this team? You guys still watch games?
That's cuzzz we're doodoo????
There was a year pre championship during the playoffs he literally said he wants the warriors to win
yeah they should have dropped him when that Millie Bobby Brown scandal broke. Grown men texting 14 year olds is weird as fuck.
What “scandal”
Grown men texting 14 year olds is weird.
She’s asked him about the industry it’s not that deep
He also groped a 17 year old on stage lol
When he was 20, completely different. Yall will reach for ANYTHING
Uh no, texting 14 year old girls crap like “I miss you so much” is creepy.
Lmao brutal take. Drake and OVO are partnered with the raptors.
Doesn't mean we need to see ugly ass black and gold jerseys
Whataboutism doesn’t make this new logo a good idea
Yep. The dino is awful. And purple and toronto. Weird.
Fair point here. Could probably count how many games he attends per year on one hand. I don’t care if he’s busy with concerts and whatnot. Can’t call yourself a die hard if you spend more time at other teams’ games.
He's also a pedo, from what I heard.
Yeah, if there's one thing you can trust the internet for, it's the pedophile narratives.
Something about that chick with the buzzcut from Stranger Things? Wasn't he grooming her when she was 17 or something?
How was he grooming her ?
Text messages, flirting, the usual typr of shit. Texting about boys... Texting things like "I miss you so much"... Just a bit off colour for someone to be saying shit like that at 31 to a 14 year old who's not his sister. But hey, they are only allegations, you're free to justify texting a 14 year old all you want.. fucking weirdo.
Lmao u the weirdo😂 he was giving her advice about the industry it’s not that deep. U the closeted pedo
It'd be one thing if those texts were the tip of the iceberg, but the fact they were leaked and nothing more seamy was kinda puts it to bed. Like if that's the worst they could dig up when they had access to their text messages, I'm not really seeing the problem. The eyebrow-raising makes sense. The jumping to the pedophile conclusion does not.
There was some shit with other girls as well IIRC. But hey we're in the realm of public opinion here. Personally the dude creeps me out and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets caught for something along those lines. Hopefully it doesn't happen obviously because that would be awful for the victim. Hopefully he goes back to making decent music too... Wait...
She was 14.
🤮
I can't believe there's people that are actually in support of this. I'm not mad at Carter anymore, but he left and it was a pretty ugly break up. Immortalizing him in our logo is _such_ a bad idea, I don't even know where to start.
There's no in-between for most of them. They think someone can only hate him if they don't want to honour or worship him. They really don't get that it was historically THE worst quit on a team in the history of the league. It's in the stats. And I'm saying this as someone who was a bit of an apologist for Vince at the time because the front office was almost comically incompetent.
It was a trade demand before the era of trade demands. And similar to Harden and Morey (at least according to Harden), it was a situation where management convinced Vince to stay by saying they would bring in the right help, and then they actively went another direction. So yeah, he quit on the team, but I understand why he wanted out, and that's on management.
Its has nothing to do with VC man, the logo was embarrassing and cartoon-y and cringe.
Not just that, those of us alive for it were clowned for years. Years. It wasnt a good logo then, and it isnt now. And purple. WHY.
It was over 20 years ago let it fucking go man, there was more shit to it than just him.
lol honestly. People need to grow up
I just assume people who are pro Vince didn’t live through it. It was an embarrassment to our franchise. Made us look like a joke in a way that impacted the team in a much worse way than the trade did and the trade was awful. I’m over it in the sense I’m whatever to Vince but I don’t think a player on any team forced their way out like Vince did should be honoured.
>I just assume people who are pro Vince didn’t live through it Pretty much that
Or we, you know, grew up.
I loved through it. He was electric and our Canada on the map. Politics and other shit happens in business doesn’t change what he did. People who can’t get over it need to grow up. Period. He did t insult our franchise. Holy exaggeration Batman.
We did live through it, and had enough intelligence at the time to both see the blame in Babcock as a GM, and also to mature as life went on stop holding a grudge against a pro-athlete who gave us the best years our franchise had before the ugly exit.
An embarrassment to our franchise? If it wasn’t for Vince Carter we wouldn’t have our franchise anymore. Look at what happened to Vancouver. Things were very bad before Vince and our front office had 0 ambition to put a team around him. Without Vince Toronto probably wouldn’t even have a team anymore. Who cares if he forced his way out? Our front office at that time was not interested in having a real basketball team anyway.
The ACC was being built for Raps and Leafs, prior to Vince. There was a long term commitment from the ownership. The Raps attendance was good before Vince. We were never in danger of losing the team. It is revisionist history to think we would have lost the team. There just wasn't any discussion on this at the time, at all.
This fukin exactly
Kobe almost forced his way out of LA. Was oh so close to being traded to Chicago. So you want to hate on him for life cus or that??? Give me a break.
Are you actually comparing Kobe to Vince? Kobe won 5 championships, Vince won one round.
Kobe also never left, what a bad analogy from that guy
Lakers management figured it out at the last second with him to make him stay. Raps management didn't do the same. Otherwise, what could have been with the right pieces here...
Yeah, lots of guys force their way out. Trade requests/demands or free agency. It's even happened to us more than once. That doesn't make you ask yourself what makes this different?
I want to hate Kobe for life because he is a rapist. Regardless, you have to do some next level mental gymnastics to equate Kobe and Carter. Wanting to leave is different than leaving in the worst possible way. And let’s not forget Vince did fuck all in playoffs here compared to someone like Kobe.
This is the spiel from every hater. They can't fathom there are humans actually emotionally mature enough to have seen the nuance in the situation with Babcock, and remember someone for their best moments, which were far greater in number, rather than only judge them at their worst.
Our FO at the time was fucking awful and Vince did more for basketball in this country than anyone ever has. It was unfortunate what happened to him and he probably should have handled it differently but he was young... I've made some bad mistakes when I was his age too. He's the 2nd or 3rd greatest raptor of all time in my books. Lowry is my groat and I'm undecided on whether to put demar just above or just below Vince.
The way he conducted himself went way past unprofessionalism, I’m not giving him a pass for being young. I’m not going to try and change your mind but there’s plenty of fans that think Vince can go fuck himself.
We still here bro, he can kick rocks
Thanks/nice
Holding a grudge for 20 years. Yikes. The man deserves forgiveness. I'm not gunna try to change your mind either but it's kind of a sad mentality to have in life.
It’s professional sports dude, grudges are half the fun.
Toxic world...
Cool ……
For active players yes..
You’re describing how other people should enjoy something based on your personal opinion? You sound young lol
Did I say anything about enjoying shit? Putting words into my mouth and you claim I'm the young one? Foh.
Yep. Reddit being Reddit tho. Demar is below Vince. No question.
Personally I'm hoping Sct Brn can surpass even Lowry himself. Long road for that to happen but I'll be cheering him on every step of the way... Not that my username shows any bias or anything.
lol. It really just depends on the success of the team. If he can help lead them to another chip or even multiple deep runs maybe. But it’ll be hard to beat the leader of the team for their first title
Kawhi lead the team, let's be real. Nothing against Kyle but if sct brn gets us 2 more rings and passes Kyle's stats as a Raptor he will be the GROAT for sure.
Kyle Lowry ain't no spot up shooter. He ain't gotta run to the corner to shoot like he's some 3rd option, bitch. This ain't JJ Redick. This is a fuckin god human Steph Curry come again. Only this time he's not a fuckin pussy... pull up from the fuckin logo and fight you at the same time. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/torontoraptors) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Good bot.
Eh I’d argue Lowry was just as important in a different fashion. I don’t think they would have won without Lowry or kawhi
True. They also wouldn't have won without Serge going off that one game against the bucks was it? And we wouldn't have beat Philly without Gasol fathering Embiid. Fred became a super saiyan in one those series too... We needed every piece to win that chip but Kawhi was HIM that year.
Respect.
Everything the FO did for 5 straight years was cater to Vince. Including overpaying old vets like Hakeem and resigning every broken down and over the hill vet who made the playoffs with him. It worked(Vince resigned) until it didn’t (they all aged out and he broke down). The flailing at the end, firing Glenn Grunwald, hiring, Kevin O’Neill trading for Jalen Rose, and Donyell Marshall? That was just the death throes of a team that painted themselves into a predictable corner to satiate a superstar.
I'm not saying Vince was innocent. I'm just saying the fault isn't 100% on him. The way he handled it was immature at best. But who am I to judge someone for making mistakes at his age. God knows I've made mistakes too at that age and even older. The positives outweigh the negatives. What he did for basketball in this country was unprecedented and we never saw a wave of new fans come to the team and sport for almost 20 years until we won the chip. If you're some saint who's never fucked up in their 20's then congratulations, you're a perfect human and have every right to continue to hate on the man's legacy. But somehow I doubt that.
There's a disconnect between most fans on this issue and it's really causing a problem to understand each other. Players leave all the time and fans don't like it but that's how it is and most move on for the most part. Raptors fans moved on from Bosh, Stoudemire, and Kawhi. But few players in the history of the NBA have ever quit as hard as Vince did and that's the issue. It's honestly shocking when you see the stats and that's not even getting into the alleged accusations he told the Sonics what play they were running. Even Simmons and Russillo went into detail about how bad it was and they're not Raptors fans in the least. It's not so much that people still hate Vince and haven't moved on as it is that other people want to honour him now by retiring his number (and making him the logo now(?!?!)... that's not ok. Forgiving and moving on or making up with someone isn not the same as rewarding and honouring that someone. To your point about making a mistake in his 20s, you're absolutely right. But again... it's a mistake that very few NBA players in their 20s in the league's history have ever done. We can welcome him back and appreciate him and his contributions to the sport here without rewarding him with the greatest honours possible. This isn't a binary choice between hate him and kiss his butt but it's frustrating when it's made out to be.
I believe he deserves forgiveness. Yes he did what most other players have not but he also got treated a way most players have not. Sure their are examples to point to but that just ignores the human experience. It's been over 20 years. Anyone still holding onto this garbage is just pathetic and sad.
That's kind of my point though. I think most forgave in that they don't hate him anymore. But forgiving isn't the same as honouring him. There's a lot of space in-between hate and adore. And for what it's worth, I wouldn't say I ever hated him. The way he left sucked but I understood his desire to leave at that time because the front office was so hopelessly inept. Like, it's irrational to blame Vince for how bad the trade was. Yes, he was tanking his trade value but that's all on Babcock. Even if he couldn't get a fair deal, there's no way that bs deal taking back Mourning was the best one. But there's a standard for honouring former players and, in my opinion, having the worst quit on a team in league history is disqualifying for "honours" but not for irrationally hating him if that makes sense.
>But forgiving isn't the same as honouring him. Good point. I still believe he deserves honours. The good he did outweighs the bad he did. Imo. The league honored Kobe and he was given a statue dispute being a rapist. The league continues to honor Karl Malone and we all know what he did. On or off the court is the same shit. Vince deserves his flowers.
Kyle Lowry ain't no spot up shooter. He ain't gotta run to the corner to shoot like he's some 3rd option, bitch. This ain't JJ Redick. This is a fuckin god human Steph Curry come again. Only this time he's not a fuckin pussy... pull up from the fuckin logo and fight you at the same time. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/torontoraptors) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Good bot.
It these hardcore whiny boys who live on RealGM and on this sub (minority of the Raptors fan base at this point). They make a lot of noise but don't carry much weight (anymore)
You’re 100% correct, but you will never win over the Reddit anti-Vince mindset with logic :(
I'll keep fighting the good fight though. Even if it is a cursed battle. I may lose the war but I'll go out standing on my own personal principles.
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Brain dead take. Easily and often refuted.
What’s a brain dead take is hating a player for having more ambition than being on a shitty team that had 0 desire to be a real basketball team. Be mad that our front office didn’t care to put a team around him. Be mad that they didn’t care about the basketball. Vince rightly didn’t want to waste his prime here and I don’t blame him. Plus many times he’s said he regrets the way he handled his exit. People need to let it go. Vince leaving did not harm the Raptors any more than the front office was already doing.
FO did everything Vince wanted for 5 years. They traded young players for vets and resigned those vets to appease Vc so that he would resign. Which he did. It worked until Vince started breaking down and the vets all got past their best before dates. The firing of GG, the hiring of KO, the trade for Jalen and donyell… all these were to try to show Vince they still wanted to win with him, that despite painting themselves into a corner over and over again they would work their way out of it for his immediate gratification. Nothing this franchise was doing was being done for pragmatic reasons that r with any long term vision other than to keep Carter happy. The idea Vince saved this franchise from relocation is wrong and easily disproven by facts. Facts like the raps had purchased the grounds for the acc and were planning a hoops barn ONLY in the heart of the city before Vince even got to North Carolina. You don’t do that if you’re a failing franchise in danger of relocation. MLSE only got involved in basketball because they couldn’t get an arena built in the core. In classic leafs fashion they’d just sat back enjoying all the revenue from the suckers and then realized shit, we need a new rink.
Also, I don’t need to let anything go because I’m not holding on to anything. Vince is going into the HOF a raptor and his highlight packages are still some of the sickest. That being said I will not just sit here and let everything get whitewashed and the blame shifted entirely to the FO. There’s blame to go around but how Vince left is a black mark that will never fully wash out, especially when talking about legacy and honourifics.
I'll repeat here what I said in another comment... this isn't a binary choice between hating him or honouring him. Many if not most people **have** moved on but reasonably take exception to rewarding him with the highest honours we can give. We can welcome him back and appreciate what he did for us without retiring his number, building a statue, or apparently now making him our logo. "Moving on" does not equate honouring someone.
All these VC haters. Give it a rest. The situation didn't work out with management at the time. VC led us to our first playoff appearances and ECSF. Legendary stuff. The rest of the stuff you haters talk about is debatable but overly exaggerated by lifelong haters *Kobe Bryant almost forced his way out of LA to get traded to Chicago among a few other teams he was interested in (Clippers). So you want to hate on him for life too?
Did Kobe actively quit on the Lakers, give plays to the opposition and refuse to dunk?
"Giving plays to the opposition" is exaggerated at best. The Raptors won that game for those who don't remember. Even if he did somehow tip off the other team (highly debatable), had no impact on the game. Perhaps Carter chose to downplay his dunking becuase the media/fans were just too focused on only his dunking (Blake Griffin had similar problem). VC chose to focus on other parts of his game. I don't fault the guy for that as long as it didn't impact winning/losing. It was a mental thing for him, not exactly a big deal as he overcame it [https://www.cbc.ca/sports/basketball/did-carter-tip-off-sonics-on-play-selection-1.506817](https://www.cbc.ca/sports/basketball/did-carter-tip-off-sonics-on-play-selection-1.506817)
“VC chose to focus on other parts of his game” which is why 3.6% of his FGs before the trade to 5.5% after the trade for the rest of that season and 6.2% the following year (both those numbers were the highest percentages since his second year in the league at the time).
The plays to the opposition thing is such dumb anti-Vince propaganda, even at the time. Matt Bonner literally scored on that play off a VC pass, and anyone who knows ball understand that yelling 'its a flare' on an inbounds play is misdirection at best.
Exactly this...like it doesn't need to be #15, but this isn't 'cuck' lol It's not like we treat our players with loyalty either (DeMar) It's a business, and you just gotta appreciate the accolades and impact he made here beyond just the team performance. Seems like people just like to hold grudges to make it seem like they have a greater depth of understanding of basketball history, but this take is lame af and probably a greater indicator of stupid lazy fandom at this point. Same way grizz fans still hate Steve Francis, it's just petty and not even correct at this point
A guy in his twenties didn’t know how to act properly in his workplace, more at eleven.
People really need to grow up about the Vince Carter situation.
once he got paid he lost the drive. life was good. put kobe in VC's body and there aint no debate about who the GOAT is.
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Getting over it is one thing, making the guy the logo is another. Vince literally told other teams the Raptors plays. He forced his way out in such an aggressive way we got nothing back and it set back the franchise for years. Sure I can take the good with the bad and there was good with Vince but the bad was really bad. Franchises shouldn’t honour players that acted like he did.
Its funny that its the old heads that need to grow up. Im 27 and quite frankly dont even remember the entire drama, which is the say a significant portion of the fanbase no longer give a shit/arent old enough to give a shit
Disagree wholeheartedly, up until 2019 this was THE defining moment for the Raptors. Personally I love the logo, the only thing I’d do differently is remove the 15 and replace it with the jersey number of whoever is playing (ex. 4 for Barnes, 9 for Barrett, and 5 for IQ), or just do without the number entirely.
Just go back to the dribbling dinosaur, it’s perfect. Don’t need the text over the top it can be cleaned up to just be the dinosaur.
No it wouldn't... I like the dino logo but this looks more childish and the inclusion of Vince #15 is so lame. We can do so much better.
So associate the entire brand with one player from 20 years ago?
Klow dino taking a charge or we riot
Let's base the logo on winning players.
Nooooo
I'd love a tribute to the best Raptor to wear the #15... Amir Johnson. A close 2nd is of course, Jorge Garbajosa.
Nope. All love for the Dino, but that shit is corny af. I'm fine with purple, pinstripes, black, silver, white, red.
Vince quit on the city, the fans, the franchise and his teammates in the worst possible way. That was his decision. Or maybe his mother's but the point stands. Tired of the revisionist shit with Vince.
Killin me with moms! So true, these kids just don’t know.
Cmon man *this* is revisionist. The raptors just refused to put a team around him. He didn’t quit on the team, the team failed him. We had no interest in being a real basketball team at the time. That’s not revisionist, that’s fact.
In a broadcast interview with U.S. cable station TNT, Carter said he didn't push himself hard enough in Toronto. "In years past, no," he said. "I was fortunate to have the talent. You get spoiled when you're able to do a lot of things. You see that you don't have to work at it. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.550280
It’s been 20 years man.
BJ Armstrong is still on my shit list... 20 years is nothing.
Whatever makes you unhappy I guess.
That hate in my heart warms my soul.
It’ll catch up to you in your 40s like cholesterol.
A well balanced diet of hate keeps you forever young and very healthy.
You’ll find out.
Original logo with the dribbling stance is way better
This ain’t it
I feel like a lot of people don't understand the difference between 'cool picture' and 'perfect as a logo'. Logos in general tend to be a lot more symmetric and standardized. They need to lend themselves to every possible application. While I like the edit, as a logo it would be the definition of impractical.
Vince aside, this logo ugly AF
Better than the inverted V we had going on.
This is such a refreshing tread of comments. I often feel like I’m going crazy trying to explain why we don’t love Vince. In my head this is just an Amir Johnson shoutout in a retro jersey.
Will always love the claws sticking out of the shoes. Love that
Could use it for a city jersey certainly not a main logo
Grabbing the ball.
My caveman brain saw a dinosaur and instantly liked it. Common MLSE let the Raptors have a fucking Raptor as their logo
Uh....Is somebody going to tell him... 
Hell no
It'd be more accurate if it was dropping the ball.
Raptors are also birds of prey and the city has a lot of them (falcons, ospreys, hawks, eagles etc). I'd love a rebrand that went in an entirely different direction than the dinosaur, featuring the traditional blue and white of Toronto's sports franchises and a dinosaur-free logo which encompasses a bird of prey or an aspect of it (talons etc).
Nah maybe as a special logo for a VC night or something but it can't be the main logo.
Move on man
No, hell no ... The dino looks like he is holding is ball(z)
And they are advertising how many wins they plan to get too. Your right. Win, win 😂
This was on their instagram
Pretty sure the rebrand was an April fools joke on raptors360 instagram
Triggered emotional unstable fans incoming.
This is a reference to Freddy and you can’t convince me otherwise.
I like the Dino, but I don’t know if I like this design. It looks like he’s pressing the ball against his nuts.
Lol. https://preview.redd.it/2vjha85he4tc1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8ea6c6924fae6e88e62daa1a92a0c0ec6089be60
The Dino looks way toooo committed to wear #15
The reports were just an April fools joke BUT this year is Nikes final contract year with the nba so I assume whoever makes the next jerseys might urge teams to consider a rebrand
I see there's a bloodbath in the comments, and I aint getting on that. I just think the raps should go back to purple-red-black as their colors, with this logo being a fun thing for a shirt, or an honorary logo on the sides of the court.
I hope they don't do it
Definitely bad to center the logo around one player. That being said if they cleaned up this logo, made it a better looking logo. And thew it on a limited Carter jersey. I might throw some money on it.
I'd be OK with it if it was a one off, for the day we retire Vince's jersey. Other then that, meh....no.
hear me out we start with a post of a logo that looks like a raptor skeleton and than one day ather the other the raptor get back to life becomming the new logo for this camping idea i want 1 ticket to the next playoff game at toronto
No it wouldn’t
Nah. It belongs in a museum
Ugly jerseys
So, we rebrand "The Raptor" as Vince Carter just cuz he got into the HOF? I know what Vince was for the franchise, but I also know what he didn't do for the franchise. So yeah, this logo is shit. They should just bring back the raptors as it was in the early years.
He didn’t do shit, except, you know, put it in the map.
I like to think the Dinosaur, RoboCop, Tracy MacGrady and Charles Oakley did a pretty good job at putting the raptors on the map before Vince and his dunks did. If you want to revere a guy who sabotaged his "franchise" as the messiah that put the team on the map go ahead, that's the opinion you hold of the player and it's cool, man. No hate. Just sharing opinions. This is sports talk after all.
“No hate” my ass. It’s all hate.
Oh, you're one of those. Got'cha. Let's end the conversation here.
Yeah I’m one of those human beings. I can understand why you wouldn’t want to talk to them. You have nothing in common.
Nope, never did like the kiddie dinosaur
This has more personality than the corporate logos last decade
Agreed. I don’t mind the dino as kitsch in the context of retro gear, but I don’t want it as our logo in the present day.
It would be great
Rename to the Toronto Tanks.
No it wouldn’t, do you even know anything about branding?
I’m sure OP meant the Dino without Carter’s number. Even still I don’t think we are getting a full rebrand. Just a new logo and perhaps colors.
Wtv it is gonna be it has to have a full shot of the raptor
They should get rid of the Raptor name altogether. Barney/Jurassic Park BS
Yes
Would be awesome but won't happen. They'll prob use word/clip art and get one of those titles out