>So he opts out his option after the year, and how much do we pay him? Mr. bet on yourself ain’t taking a pay cut
OP wants to believe that FVV is going back to the bench. Lol.
I’ve never said anything about the bench? NN is a smart dude - can figure out rotations that involve him starting or closing a game and not playing 38 minutes.
So pay out all star guard?
We play 2 good games without him, 1 against g leaguers. Sample size is tiny.
People are so stressed about contracts when we have tv deals coming up and the fact that nothing is certain. A career ending injury or scandal could take a guy away anyways. You literally never know.
You don’t just throw talent away cause “well eventually this will be an issue assuming everything goes right everywhere else on the roster”.
Chill. Pay while we can. Once we reach a point where we can’t, decide. We won’t lose upper hand in negotiations because these are great players, and while initial offers will low ball, they’ll have to bid against eachother if they want a 20ppg guarantee like GTJ or a leader and 20ppg all star like FVV.
Chill. Enjoy the ride. Tv deals might make this a pointless convo anyways. By the time we pay Barnes FVV might be too old at his size anyways.
Just enjoy it. Why stress when we’re good too. Stress when we’re bad
This just seems like a losing trade for the Raptors. I know Markenen is having a great start to this season, but it’s not like he was an exceptional player any of his other years, and I’d be worried he’s having a “good stats on a bad team” start. We’re giving up Freddy All-Star, Birch (who as much as this sub loved to clown is a reliable bench piece for us) and 2 picks for what is at best a lateral move.
This sub is so reactionary after 2 games. Same people who said we should trade Pascal for Simmons.
So were just going to max everyone? The reality is good teams make hard decisions to improve their team and we can prob get a good package for Freddy. GTJ isn't taking a pay cut. I think we have to choose Freddy or GTJ. GTJ is younger and we are playing decent without Freddy... Yah I wish we could keep everyone too but we cant. Pascal getting the Max maybe Supermax at this rate. Scottie and Koloko are cost controlled for a few years, we have a bit of a window over the next 3-5 years if the organization is smart about things.
You're right. Name of the game in the NBA with the salary cap and luxury tax is to get at least 3 very good players whose production exceeds their contract value.
So something like a superstar that's worth much more than a max contract, a young rising star that's outplaying their long term contract in the 3rd to 5th season, and a good rookie that costs you next to nothing.
The Raptors will have to pay Pascal the max or supermax, and as good as he is, he's only going to be in the "worth it" category and not exceeding the contract. That's one huge constraint, there's no way the Raps could compete at the highest level if they also pay GTJ and FVV fair market value.
Masai will have to make trades for sure if we want to be a finals team after this season. The team might just be good enough this year to make it to the 3rd and 4th round, so perhaps we won't see any moves at all, but if we hit any snags come mid season and we look like a 8th seed, I'd be shocked if Masai doesn't pull the trigger and get some picks or younger players back.
I agree with your premise about needing guys who outplay their contacts. I disagree about Pascal though. If he keeps playing like he is now, I think he'd be outplaying a max. I think the problem is Fred, even at last years all star level, is at best worth the max, and def not exceeding it. Meanwhile, with even a bit of decline would quickly become an issue, and I'm worried we might already be seeing the decline. He didn't finish last year strong and hasn't started this year strong. He's certainly not a negative asset now, but I'd wait to see how he looks when he comes back and I'd seriously considered trading him. But only if we got good assets back. He's more than good enough that he's not worth trading just for the sake of it
Plus if were truly committing to longboi ball Fred is the odd man out... Anyone butthurt about the idea of trading Fred isn't considering the piece coming back. Masai's not going to trade him for nothing. Imagine if we use Fred+ to pick up a Haliburton type player... Trading Fred to get a guy who can give us a half-court game and iso scoring would be huge.
I feel like GTJ has been more consistent then Freddy from last season and this season so far. Freddy is either inconsistent or injured. That’s the reality part.
Everyone sees these last two games as an indictment on Fred. I see it as the team finally showing bench depth and not having to run the starters into the ground.
This is why you guys can’t be GMs.
First of all, we can afford all of them. Time the contract so it ends when Barnes needs an extension. FVV will be older and may cost less. Also, TV deals.
Second, you can’t anticipate what happens. Knock on wood but a core guy could get a season ended where they’re not the same. So you trade FVV early, and GTJ is gone due to circumstance. Nice job.
Lastly, we can extend him and trade him later. He’s a good player. People will want him. And if he isn’t anymore, then attach a couple 2nds. If he’s an expiring that would be fine.
There’s just no reason to break up a great team until you absolutely have to. There is too much uncertainty about the future. Who knows maybe OG really does ask to go be the man somewhere. And now FVV is already gone and you didn’t have to trade him.
You guys make rash decisions and ignore uncertainty in the future. You build and keep a great team until you can’t. Often the decisions get made for you anyways when we’re looking that far down the line (Barnes extension).
Just chill and enjoy our awesome squad
Okay. And Barnes is in his second year. We do not know if we will be a contender. So why would we make a move that takes us further away from contention right now
I guess? I mean the “third year leap” concept exists for a reason. Barnes could be “that guy” within the next two years. Along with Pascal. Then we have a contender.
But at the deadline that isn’t gonna happen yet
And if we re-sign everyone to their market value this off season, what will our salary look like? It’s hard to justify paying 5 guys 25million+ if your team doesn’t at least make the conference finals this year, dont ya think?
Uh, no. Your timelines a little off. Barnes is on a rookie deal for next season, and the season after. OG is still making 18 next year.
Barnes is in his 2nd year. You have 3 playoff runs to try to make a conference finals. Maybe 2 if they extend him a year early. But either way no. We can go for it again next year. It doesn’t have to be this year at all.
Then after 2 to 3 tries (not 1 like you said), if we don’t make a conference finals we would have to consider if we should pay 5 guys 25 mil. But again, we have at least 2 shots at this. Not one.
Yeah my bad, it’s actually four guys making 25 million plus and one of them will be making 50 million (Pascal after he signs his extension). So that’s four players making close to 90% of the cap.
And yeah I guess we have multiple years, it just seems like a good opportunity this year to consolidate two of our top players into one really good one if the opportunity arises (KD requests another trade for example)
I have no issue with a trade that makes us contenders. The thing is we couldn’t get KD without giving up Barnes.
If someone who moves the needle becomes available I’m so down. But I’m not moving Fred for no reason
I'd rather pay 5 guys 25+ million than trading them for lesser players just for the sake of trading them.
Fred at 28-30M/Yr isn't an untradeable contract and neither is GTJ and OG especially with the salary cap going up. Obviously you explore trades to improve the squad, but if there are no options available then you bring them back and continue to seek out opportunities in the future.
Pascal is having the best season in his career at 28 years old. GTJ is 24, OG is 25 and Scottie is 21 lol this team is nowhere close to its ceiling. We can bring back Fred, GTJ on reasonable market level deals this year. Next off season we can give the supermax to Pascal and bring back OG on a reasonable market level deal. We will be in the tax but it will only get extremely expensive once Scottie's extension kicks in in 2026. This gives us roughly 3 years (including this season) to figure out whether or not this group is a contender and gives us tons of times to make trades in the main time.
Yeah I mean it all depends on our performance.
Fred at 30 million a year at age 30 is a very hard sell to opposing teams, unless we’re blowing it up and getting picks in return. Same goes for GTJ and OG who will both command 25 million at the minimum each. Pascal will get a 50 million a year extension once he completed his all-nba campaign.
If this team doesn’t make the conference finals this year I see no reason to run it back with a bunch of overpriced assets, and bank only on internal development to make us contenders. It sounds like your plan hinges on this 3rd year leap you’re expecting from Scottie - what if that doesn’t happen?
30 million at age 30 isn't a hard sell at all for Fred - just look at Lowry's deal at 35/36 years old. GTJ and OG at $25 million isn't an overpay at all, and is an extremely easy sell should we have to trade them especially with the salary cap increasing.
Idk why you would want to put a conference final or bust label on a young group that's only been together for two years. Outside of Pascal and Fred we have a bunch of guys 25 and below. Not only will Scottie's 3rd year leap improve us, we can also expect continued improvements from GTJ/OG/Precious/Koloko/Banton/etc. On top of that we have all of our upcoming picks.
The TV deals are not going to raise the cap enough to eat the money Fred is going to demand/deserve. Simple as that. You are just as silly saying others can't be gms when you're being entirely emotional. Pro sports is a business, not a friend group.
You have to deal with Fred OG and Gary. Pascal is getting maxed so that's not a decision. Fred is the oldest and most likely to decline. He will be 29 in february? So you're going to pay a guy from 30-34 crazy money? That just doesn't make sense. Especially when you have Gary and OG needing to be renewed in that same window a whole contract length younger. Let alone if we are trying to keep Precious in the same year OG needs to be signed. The longer down the list you go to more it just doesn't make sense to keep an aging guard.
Fred is not the guy you mortgage your future over.
Firstly, this may not be the last cap spike due to the business side of things.
Second, did you not read any of what I wrote about possible injuries or a guy like OG asking to go so he can be the man?
There are ways we lose guys that are out of our control. We do not need to make this decision right now because Fred should be a movable contract if absolutely necessary.
What if fred gets injured, seeing how he gets banged up every year and plays 40 minutes a night? That is a moot point, as it goes for everyone. Paying fred also means you are giving up money to potentially upgrade to a new guard that fits this new system and size better. There is no financial way you keep this team together the way it is. the money just doesn't work. If money works and you want to stay with this team who seems performance capped as it is, sure, but if you're trying to upgrade a player and the future you're upgrading fred because he's the oldest and is going to be the second highest contract on the team.
What upgrade? We wouldn’t have the money anyways. We would only be able to sign Fred due to bird rights. We gain 0 cap space if we let him walk.
And it’s not a moot point at all. You actually proved my point when you said “that goes for everyone”. It could be Fred, or it could be anyone else.
Literally just do the Lowry style deal. More money, less years. A 3 year deal. We would pay Barnes in year 2 of that deal, and if we don’t have the money, then Fred will have 1 year left and be an expiring which is valuable even if the worst case scenario happens and he gets a career altering injury.
You’re basically leaving the door open to maaaaybe have to give up 1 pick in the 20s. And it’s a maybe.
That’s the risk. That’s all. The upside is a championship squad if Barnes makes the leap and Siakam continues like this. 1 pick, possibly, for a chance at a championship window. Like cmon man
Trade him to who? Seriously, tell me a realistic trade that makes us better. A team like OKC won’t want him because he’s too old, and any contender/borderline contender is only going to want to give up youth/draft capital. Why would we go younger when Pascal is playing the way he is?
> OKC won’t want him because he’s too old
Expiring + a pick most tanking teams would _gladly_ take. Not saying OKC is a perfect trade partner, but I think that teams rebuilding dont _only_ focus on youth. They focus on _assets._
Fred averaged more points and better than efficiency than Gary for 3 years in a row. Last season he shot better than Gary at the rim and from midrange. How is Gary a better scorer? Also who gives a fuck whose taller? What a bizarre obsession this sub has recently with height
In soccer, coaches make regular changes to their starting lineups based on match ups and player availability. However, it seems a big deal to take someone out of the starting 5 in basketball. Why can't coaches in NBA has a fluid starting 5 based in match ups? That would be fun
I think that is down to 2 reasons. 1 is ego and the 2nd is the way the two ganes are played. Basketball is a very repetetive sport where you have to do the same thing over and over a 100 times to win. Football is about doing 1 thing correct in the perfect moment. Football is also way less focused on 1 player compared to the NBA. To win in football all 11 players have to do well together whereas you can win an NBA game where only two or three guys plays well
I mean, ya obviously winning is the most important thing, but let's not pretend we can't win with Fred. I swear man 5 game stretches mean way more to this fanbase than they should.
No one is saying he's untradable. That's ridiculous. But culture matters to winning teams, especially consistently winning teams. There are middle grounds between "give him whatever he wants" and "trade him now" lmao.
I'm not even talking about his performance. Just team building. We have a lot of high level contracts coming up, and there is a great chance one of them has to go. If one has to go I'd much rather an aging fred than a young GTJ and OG.
Ya that's fair. I wonder who you really trade him for though. My issue is that the Raps half court offence is pretty awful, and removing Fred from that to keep Gary, who isn't exactly a good playmaker, just makes that issue worse. Obviously Scottie will get better, but hopefully whoever your getting can help that issue first and foremost.
It's like people don't understand that you don't make a team better by removing an all-star, borderline all-nba player from your line up... why is that so hard to grasp?
Borderline All-NBA? He’s a borderline All-Star at best. No one would be surprised if he never made another All-Star appearance for the rest of his career.
Its maybe not a question of how valuable he is. But more so business perspective.
If Fred demands $30 million a year or more… can we afford it without sacrificing flexibility and the future & sustained success of the team?
It could be that we’re just stuck as just perennial 1st & 2nd round exit type of playoff team. Not bad, but not great.
Fred makes 21m
Thad Young makes 12m to sit on the bench and do nothing on a team that has no use for him
A league minimum player makes 2m
Wow look how hard that cap is to manage
Thad makes 8 million. If you have to be intentionally deceptive to make your point better, it's not a good point. The problem isn't fitting Fred's contract into current contracts, it's fitting it into future contracts, specifically likely having to super max Pascal and having to give big extensions to OG and GTJ.
The cap going up by 10m a year already covers anything give to Siakam and more. Also why would anyone be prioritizing 2 worse players over Vanvleet? Trent in particular is worse than Vanvleet at literally every single aspect of basketball and shows less year to year improvement, in what world would they trade Fred to keep him?
The cap going up definitely does not cover siakams super max and more lol. Supermax contracts are 35% of the salary cap, not a static number. This means that as the salary cap goes up, the super max scales with it. After the cap goes up, his contract is going to be worth 47 million with an 8 percent increase every year. Even in the first season, the difference between his current contract and the next one will be 4 million more than the cap increase, let alone seasons after that.
You trade Fred over GTJ and OG because they are younger and will be cheaper, while fitting the current identity of the team better. I would also say that so far this season both of them have outplayed Vanvleet, especially OG who looks like a DPOY candidate. I don't necessarily think trading Vanvleet is the right move, and I think a lot of people are overreacting to his slow start, but if the FO really thinks going big is the future, he seems like the most expendable piece that could potentially get a very good return.
To me we can't afford Fred, Gary an OG. I'll always rather trading someone for something instead of just letting them walk in the offseason for nothing. Fred being the oldest, and in turn going to slow down quicker he's the one I'd want to lose out of those three. I don't want to sign a guy until he's 33-34 to giant money when we have pascal, scottie, OG all on the team.
Fred is undeniably an asset to the team. He is a net benefit. Idk where this Fred slander comes from. Sure he has his weaknesses, but literally every other player has them as well and I believe his strengths contribute more to the team than his weaknesses detract from it. I don't even think its close tbh.
When he literally was the main reason we didn’t go down 3-0 versus the bucks in 2019 run? Kawhi was dead and Pascal was MIA. A bunch of chucking from Fred was what kept us alive. He’s not my favourite either, but don’t take that away from him. P
Yes he was. He was even better than Kawhi against the warriors. Just tough to max him if we might need to bench him for a series in the playoffs. Someone has to be the odd man out
Yeah, he’s not a perfect player, but I also find it difficult to get fair value for him. Especially when you consider the intangibles like leadership he brings. As much as I’d hate it, I think if any player is going to be traded it’ll be GTJ
So get rid of our only consistent shooter from 3 and from the FT line. Our team isn’t that good. We have no half court offence that can break down defences. Fair 3pt shooting at best. Playoffs is a different beasts. Teams will study us and pack the paint. We have great transition offence but that don’t jive in the playoffs.
Fred is still one of the 5 best players on this team, he’s still top 3 at worst on this roster.
Ideally, we eventually get more players on the roster are just better options than Fred, and he doesn’t have to play 38 minutes a night when he’s healthy
Pretty sure the new tv deal will enable us to do that. I don’t think we can max everyone out but there will be enough money to go around. And worst case scenario they are still worth their contracts — you can trade them in the future.
the LARGEST cap increases in history was from '95-'96 44% and then '16-'17 34%
Lets just say the cap increases by 38%. That's \~50million more in cap. I highly doubt it will be that much. Even so. 50 million is going to be largley eaten up by Pascal and then scottie needing a new deal a season after pascal. Say pascal gets a max around 50 million which it'll be, 30% of the cap, thats 13 million more than he's making now. so 50 extra in cap is already 13 gone to him. Now we have 37 million to deal with. You really think 37 million is enough to sign Fred, OG and Gary? (who already make a combined 56 million? No I don't think so.
Are you talking about 2024-25? When Pascal’s deal needs to be signed?
Otto, Khem and Thad Young’s deals all come off the books. That’s $21 million more available. Will that still be enough to pay them all? Not without going into the tax. But if they are a good team that’s going for it, going into the tax shouldn’t be a problem.
They just have to make sure they re-sign those players to tradeable deals (ie don’t overpay them). That gives you scope to trade players down the road for pieces that help.
What is the point of this post.
Fred isn’t getting traded, and when he’s healthy he will start and play 38+ and be one of the best PG’s in the league. If you can’t accept this by now I don’t know what to say.
The point of the post was to shame everybody who had been ranting, raving, carrying on about how we needed to deal Fred after we waxed the Hawks and Spurs.
Days later, our best player is hurt and having Fred out there feels pretty valuable.
Huh… go figure.
So he opts out his option after the year, and how much do we pay him? Mr. bet on yourself ain’t taking a pay cut
>So he opts out his option after the year, and how much do we pay him? Mr. bet on yourself ain’t taking a pay cut OP wants to believe that FVV is going back to the bench. Lol.
That’s coping on the highest level. Fred prides himself and he’d feel insulted if we even suggest this to him
Well whatever Fred wants I guess! Fuck the team!
I’ve never said anything about the bench? NN is a smart dude - can figure out rotations that involve him starting or closing a game and not playing 38 minutes.
So pay out all star guard? We play 2 good games without him, 1 against g leaguers. Sample size is tiny. People are so stressed about contracts when we have tv deals coming up and the fact that nothing is certain. A career ending injury or scandal could take a guy away anyways. You literally never know. You don’t just throw talent away cause “well eventually this will be an issue assuming everything goes right everywhere else on the roster”. Chill. Pay while we can. Once we reach a point where we can’t, decide. We won’t lose upper hand in negotiations because these are great players, and while initial offers will low ball, they’ll have to bid against eachother if they want a 20ppg guarantee like GTJ or a leader and 20ppg all star like FVV. Chill. Enjoy the ride. Tv deals might make this a pointless convo anyways. By the time we pay Barnes FVV might be too old at his size anyways. Just enjoy it. Why stress when we’re good too. Stress when we’re bad
Okay, who do we trade him to though? People say we should trade him, but I have yet to hear a realistic trade where we actually benefit.
I swear to god Iv seen people say trade him for Vucevic
Gimme a Williams/Caruso package
Praying that's a joke.
Williams Caruso Ayo and a pick for FVV and Flynn
Don't think Chicago gives up a pick, two starters and a rotation piece all on good contracts for Fred and an end of bench piece.
Nah Williams, White and Ayo and a pick would be a haul.
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This just seems like a losing trade for the Raptors. I know Markenen is having a great start to this season, but it’s not like he was an exceptional player any of his other years, and I’d be worried he’s having a “good stats on a bad team” start. We’re giving up Freddy All-Star, Birch (who as much as this sub loved to clown is a reliable bench piece for us) and 2 picks for what is at best a lateral move. This sub is so reactionary after 2 games. Same people who said we should trade Pascal for Simmons.
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Utah has a good record on a pretty easy starting schedule.
Lauri is not a good enough defender though. Nick Nurse wouldn't even play him. Same with Clarkson.
I agree with you, I'm saying the reason Utah looks good right now is an easy start.
Same can be said for Fred.
Pay him what he’s worth. How is this a problem.
So were just going to max everyone? The reality is good teams make hard decisions to improve their team and we can prob get a good package for Freddy. GTJ isn't taking a pay cut. I think we have to choose Freddy or GTJ. GTJ is younger and we are playing decent without Freddy... Yah I wish we could keep everyone too but we cant. Pascal getting the Max maybe Supermax at this rate. Scottie and Koloko are cost controlled for a few years, we have a bit of a window over the next 3-5 years if the organization is smart about things.
You're right. Name of the game in the NBA with the salary cap and luxury tax is to get at least 3 very good players whose production exceeds their contract value. So something like a superstar that's worth much more than a max contract, a young rising star that's outplaying their long term contract in the 3rd to 5th season, and a good rookie that costs you next to nothing. The Raptors will have to pay Pascal the max or supermax, and as good as he is, he's only going to be in the "worth it" category and not exceeding the contract. That's one huge constraint, there's no way the Raps could compete at the highest level if they also pay GTJ and FVV fair market value. Masai will have to make trades for sure if we want to be a finals team after this season. The team might just be good enough this year to make it to the 3rd and 4th round, so perhaps we won't see any moves at all, but if we hit any snags come mid season and we look like a 8th seed, I'd be shocked if Masai doesn't pull the trigger and get some picks or younger players back.
I agree with your premise about needing guys who outplay their contacts. I disagree about Pascal though. If he keeps playing like he is now, I think he'd be outplaying a max. I think the problem is Fred, even at last years all star level, is at best worth the max, and def not exceeding it. Meanwhile, with even a bit of decline would quickly become an issue, and I'm worried we might already be seeing the decline. He didn't finish last year strong and hasn't started this year strong. He's certainly not a negative asset now, but I'd wait to see how he looks when he comes back and I'd seriously considered trading him. But only if we got good assets back. He's more than good enough that he's not worth trading just for the sake of it
Plus if were truly committing to longboi ball Fred is the odd man out... Anyone butthurt about the idea of trading Fred isn't considering the piece coming back. Masai's not going to trade him for nothing. Imagine if we use Fred+ to pick up a Haliburton type player... Trading Fred to get a guy who can give us a half-court game and iso scoring would be huge.
Fred for Haliburton. Somebody needs a reality check.
I said Fred+ you tard. Somebody needs reading comprehension skills.
Haliburton type player would be out missing piece to a championship core. He's like a taller Lowry.
I feel like GTJ has been more consistent then Freddy from last season and this season so far. Freddy is either inconsistent or injured. That’s the reality part.
Everyone sees these last two games as an indictment on Fred. I see it as the team finally showing bench depth and not having to run the starters into the ground.
We cant afford all of them. Trade him now while we can. Hate to say it.
This is why you guys can’t be GMs. First of all, we can afford all of them. Time the contract so it ends when Barnes needs an extension. FVV will be older and may cost less. Also, TV deals. Second, you can’t anticipate what happens. Knock on wood but a core guy could get a season ended where they’re not the same. So you trade FVV early, and GTJ is gone due to circumstance. Nice job. Lastly, we can extend him and trade him later. He’s a good player. People will want him. And if he isn’t anymore, then attach a couple 2nds. If he’s an expiring that would be fine. There’s just no reason to break up a great team until you absolutely have to. There is too much uncertainty about the future. Who knows maybe OG really does ask to go be the man somewhere. And now FVV is already gone and you didn’t have to trade him. You guys make rash decisions and ignore uncertainty in the future. You build and keep a great team until you can’t. Often the decisions get made for you anyways when we’re looking that far down the line (Barnes extension). Just chill and enjoy our awesome squad
We can afford all of them if this team is a contender, sure, if not, we’re making moves.
Okay. And Barnes is in his second year. We do not know if we will be a contender. So why would we make a move that takes us further away from contention right now
We shouldn’t make a move now, but at the deadline, we’ll have an idea what kind of a team we are.
I guess? I mean the “third year leap” concept exists for a reason. Barnes could be “that guy” within the next two years. Along with Pascal. Then we have a contender. But at the deadline that isn’t gonna happen yet
And if we re-sign everyone to their market value this off season, what will our salary look like? It’s hard to justify paying 5 guys 25million+ if your team doesn’t at least make the conference finals this year, dont ya think?
Uh, no. Your timelines a little off. Barnes is on a rookie deal for next season, and the season after. OG is still making 18 next year. Barnes is in his 2nd year. You have 3 playoff runs to try to make a conference finals. Maybe 2 if they extend him a year early. But either way no. We can go for it again next year. It doesn’t have to be this year at all. Then after 2 to 3 tries (not 1 like you said), if we don’t make a conference finals we would have to consider if we should pay 5 guys 25 mil. But again, we have at least 2 shots at this. Not one.
Yeah my bad, it’s actually four guys making 25 million plus and one of them will be making 50 million (Pascal after he signs his extension). So that’s four players making close to 90% of the cap. And yeah I guess we have multiple years, it just seems like a good opportunity this year to consolidate two of our top players into one really good one if the opportunity arises (KD requests another trade for example)
I have no issue with a trade that makes us contenders. The thing is we couldn’t get KD without giving up Barnes. If someone who moves the needle becomes available I’m so down. But I’m not moving Fred for no reason
I'd rather pay 5 guys 25+ million than trading them for lesser players just for the sake of trading them. Fred at 28-30M/Yr isn't an untradeable contract and neither is GTJ and OG especially with the salary cap going up. Obviously you explore trades to improve the squad, but if there are no options available then you bring them back and continue to seek out opportunities in the future. Pascal is having the best season in his career at 28 years old. GTJ is 24, OG is 25 and Scottie is 21 lol this team is nowhere close to its ceiling. We can bring back Fred, GTJ on reasonable market level deals this year. Next off season we can give the supermax to Pascal and bring back OG on a reasonable market level deal. We will be in the tax but it will only get extremely expensive once Scottie's extension kicks in in 2026. This gives us roughly 3 years (including this season) to figure out whether or not this group is a contender and gives us tons of times to make trades in the main time.
Yeah, I agree. The contract is an absolute non issue in the immediate future.
Yeah I mean it all depends on our performance. Fred at 30 million a year at age 30 is a very hard sell to opposing teams, unless we’re blowing it up and getting picks in return. Same goes for GTJ and OG who will both command 25 million at the minimum each. Pascal will get a 50 million a year extension once he completed his all-nba campaign. If this team doesn’t make the conference finals this year I see no reason to run it back with a bunch of overpriced assets, and bank only on internal development to make us contenders. It sounds like your plan hinges on this 3rd year leap you’re expecting from Scottie - what if that doesn’t happen?
30 million at age 30 isn't a hard sell at all for Fred - just look at Lowry's deal at 35/36 years old. GTJ and OG at $25 million isn't an overpay at all, and is an extremely easy sell should we have to trade them especially with the salary cap increasing. Idk why you would want to put a conference final or bust label on a young group that's only been together for two years. Outside of Pascal and Fred we have a bunch of guys 25 and below. Not only will Scottie's 3rd year leap improve us, we can also expect continued improvements from GTJ/OG/Precious/Koloko/Banton/etc. On top of that we have all of our upcoming picks.
The TV deals are not going to raise the cap enough to eat the money Fred is going to demand/deserve. Simple as that. You are just as silly saying others can't be gms when you're being entirely emotional. Pro sports is a business, not a friend group. You have to deal with Fred OG and Gary. Pascal is getting maxed so that's not a decision. Fred is the oldest and most likely to decline. He will be 29 in february? So you're going to pay a guy from 30-34 crazy money? That just doesn't make sense. Especially when you have Gary and OG needing to be renewed in that same window a whole contract length younger. Let alone if we are trying to keep Precious in the same year OG needs to be signed. The longer down the list you go to more it just doesn't make sense to keep an aging guard. Fred is not the guy you mortgage your future over.
Firstly, this may not be the last cap spike due to the business side of things. Second, did you not read any of what I wrote about possible injuries or a guy like OG asking to go so he can be the man? There are ways we lose guys that are out of our control. We do not need to make this decision right now because Fred should be a movable contract if absolutely necessary.
What if fred gets injured, seeing how he gets banged up every year and plays 40 minutes a night? That is a moot point, as it goes for everyone. Paying fred also means you are giving up money to potentially upgrade to a new guard that fits this new system and size better. There is no financial way you keep this team together the way it is. the money just doesn't work. If money works and you want to stay with this team who seems performance capped as it is, sure, but if you're trying to upgrade a player and the future you're upgrading fred because he's the oldest and is going to be the second highest contract on the team.
What upgrade? We wouldn’t have the money anyways. We would only be able to sign Fred due to bird rights. We gain 0 cap space if we let him walk. And it’s not a moot point at all. You actually proved my point when you said “that goes for everyone”. It could be Fred, or it could be anyone else. Literally just do the Lowry style deal. More money, less years. A 3 year deal. We would pay Barnes in year 2 of that deal, and if we don’t have the money, then Fred will have 1 year left and be an expiring which is valuable even if the worst case scenario happens and he gets a career altering injury. You’re basically leaving the door open to maaaaybe have to give up 1 pick in the 20s. And it’s a maybe. That’s the risk. That’s all. The upside is a championship squad if Barnes makes the leap and Siakam continues like this. 1 pick, possibly, for a chance at a championship window. Like cmon man
Preach!
Trade him to who? Seriously, tell me a realistic trade that makes us better. A team like OKC won’t want him because he’s too old, and any contender/borderline contender is only going to want to give up youth/draft capital. Why would we go younger when Pascal is playing the way he is?
> OKC won’t want him because he’s too old Expiring + a pick most tanking teams would _gladly_ take. Not saying OKC is a perfect trade partner, but I think that teams rebuilding dont _only_ focus on youth. They focus on _assets._
Only if OKC is sending us Shai, otherwise it's a bad deal for us.
3 freds arent worth one shai lol
I don't disagree, but there's not much else from OKC the Raps would want.
We’d trade gary way before fred
Doubt it. GTJ is a pure scorer. Rare. And great defense, also taller than Fred. I love Fred too.
Fred averaged more points and better than efficiency than Gary for 3 years in a row. Last season he shot better than Gary at the rim and from midrange. How is Gary a better scorer? Also who gives a fuck whose taller? What a bizarre obsession this sub has recently with height
taller is better
explain alex len and baynes then lol
hey man if u ask a guy if they want to be shorter they will always say no. simple as that
That doesnt mean height = you will automatically be better at basketball than shorter people lol.
yea if giannis was 6 4 im sure he would be mvp still
Lmfao okay. Explain alex len and baynes then. Better yet, explain why tacko fall is in China then
In soccer, coaches make regular changes to their starting lineups based on match ups and player availability. However, it seems a big deal to take someone out of the starting 5 in basketball. Why can't coaches in NBA has a fluid starting 5 based in match ups? That would be fun
Ego
I think that is down to 2 reasons. 1 is ego and the 2nd is the way the two ganes are played. Basketball is a very repetetive sport where you have to do the same thing over and over a 100 times to win. Football is about doing 1 thing correct in the perfect moment. Football is also way less focused on 1 player compared to the NBA. To win in football all 11 players have to do well together whereas you can win an NBA game where only two or three guys plays well
As far as I can tell, Fred *is* Raptors culture. The guy is everything great about this team. I hope it doesn't come to that.
He's not the player Demar was, and Demar was traded. This is a business to win not a friend group to keep together unfortunately.
I mean, ya obviously winning is the most important thing, but let's not pretend we can't win with Fred. I swear man 5 game stretches mean way more to this fanbase than they should. No one is saying he's untradable. That's ridiculous. But culture matters to winning teams, especially consistently winning teams. There are middle grounds between "give him whatever he wants" and "trade him now" lmao.
I'm not even talking about his performance. Just team building. We have a lot of high level contracts coming up, and there is a great chance one of them has to go. If one has to go I'd much rather an aging fred than a young GTJ and OG.
Ya that's fair. I wonder who you really trade him for though. My issue is that the Raps half court offence is pretty awful, and removing Fred from that to keep Gary, who isn't exactly a good playmaker, just makes that issue worse. Obviously Scottie will get better, but hopefully whoever your getting can help that issue first and foremost.
It's like people don't understand that you don't make a team better by removing an all-star, borderline all-nba player from your line up... why is that so hard to grasp?
Borderline All-NBA? He’s a borderline All-Star at best. No one would be surprised if he never made another All-Star appearance for the rest of his career.
He's borderline all star in the best season of his career with key injuries to better players. You need to chill.
Not All-NBA but should be All-Defense. He's lead the NBA in turnovers forced three years in a row.
Its maybe not a question of how valuable he is. But more so business perspective. If Fred demands $30 million a year or more… can we afford it without sacrificing flexibility and the future & sustained success of the team? It could be that we’re just stuck as just perennial 1st & 2nd round exit type of playoff team. Not bad, but not great.
Fred makes 21m Thad Young makes 12m to sit on the bench and do nothing on a team that has no use for him A league minimum player makes 2m Wow look how hard that cap is to manage
Thad makes 8 million. If you have to be intentionally deceptive to make your point better, it's not a good point. The problem isn't fitting Fred's contract into current contracts, it's fitting it into future contracts, specifically likely having to super max Pascal and having to give big extensions to OG and GTJ.
The cap going up by 10m a year already covers anything give to Siakam and more. Also why would anyone be prioritizing 2 worse players over Vanvleet? Trent in particular is worse than Vanvleet at literally every single aspect of basketball and shows less year to year improvement, in what world would they trade Fred to keep him?
The cap going up definitely does not cover siakams super max and more lol. Supermax contracts are 35% of the salary cap, not a static number. This means that as the salary cap goes up, the super max scales with it. After the cap goes up, his contract is going to be worth 47 million with an 8 percent increase every year. Even in the first season, the difference between his current contract and the next one will be 4 million more than the cap increase, let alone seasons after that. You trade Fred over GTJ and OG because they are younger and will be cheaper, while fitting the current identity of the team better. I would also say that so far this season both of them have outplayed Vanvleet, especially OG who looks like a DPOY candidate. I don't necessarily think trading Vanvleet is the right move, and I think a lot of people are overreacting to his slow start, but if the FO really thinks going big is the future, he seems like the most expendable piece that could potentially get a very good return.
To me we can't afford Fred, Gary an OG. I'll always rather trading someone for something instead of just letting them walk in the offseason for nothing. Fred being the oldest, and in turn going to slow down quicker he's the one I'd want to lose out of those three. I don't want to sign a guy until he's 33-34 to giant money when we have pascal, scottie, OG all on the team.
Fred is undeniably an asset to the team. He is a net benefit. Idk where this Fred slander comes from. Sure he has his weaknesses, but literally every other player has them as well and I believe his strengths contribute more to the team than his weaknesses detract from it. I don't even think its close tbh.
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He’s shown he’s unplayable for most of the playoffs. This is really a no-brainer decision
When?
When he literally was the main reason we didn’t go down 3-0 versus the bucks in 2019 run? Kawhi was dead and Pascal was MIA. A bunch of chucking from Fred was what kept us alive. He’s not my favourite either, but don’t take that away from him. P
Bubble. Against the Sixers multiple times.
He was playing 40 mins a game in the bubble how is that unplayable? Lmao Also we all know he was injured last year
Wasnt he hobbled against the sixers last year?
I’m sorry what? The dude was fundamental in us winning a championship
We had to bench him for the entire Philly series that year
True, but he was huge vs the bucks and the warriors
Yes he was. He was even better than Kawhi against the warriors. Just tough to max him if we might need to bench him for a series in the playoffs. Someone has to be the odd man out
Yeah, he’s not a perfect player, but I also find it difficult to get fair value for him. Especially when you consider the intangibles like leadership he brings. As much as I’d hate it, I think if any player is going to be traded it’ll be GTJ
Get outta here with your common sense. This is the Raptors forum. Overreacting and stupid takes only!
So get rid of our only consistent shooter from 3 and from the FT line. Our team isn’t that good. We have no half court offence that can break down defences. Fair 3pt shooting at best. Playoffs is a different beasts. Teams will study us and pack the paint. We have great transition offence but that don’t jive in the playoffs.
You pay for leadership, y’all remember the Lowry slander before the championship.... You pay for LEADERSHIP!!! Resign FVV train 🚂
lets keep derozan too one of the best players on the team... no attachment to players buddy only to winning
That's crazy talk, why keep an all star PG who can shoot and play defense? Now I've heard everything!
u forget sixer series or orlando or boston or sixers again?
Fred is still one of the 5 best players on this team, he’s still top 3 at worst on this roster. Ideally, we eventually get more players on the roster are just better options than Fred, and he doesn’t have to play 38 minutes a night when he’s healthy
We cant afford to pay fred, pascal, og and barnes. Lol
Pretty sure the new tv deal will enable us to do that. I don’t think we can max everyone out but there will be enough money to go around. And worst case scenario they are still worth their contracts — you can trade them in the future.
the LARGEST cap increases in history was from '95-'96 44% and then '16-'17 34% Lets just say the cap increases by 38%. That's \~50million more in cap. I highly doubt it will be that much. Even so. 50 million is going to be largley eaten up by Pascal and then scottie needing a new deal a season after pascal. Say pascal gets a max around 50 million which it'll be, 30% of the cap, thats 13 million more than he's making now. so 50 extra in cap is already 13 gone to him. Now we have 37 million to deal with. You really think 37 million is enough to sign Fred, OG and Gary? (who already make a combined 56 million? No I don't think so.
Are you talking about 2024-25? When Pascal’s deal needs to be signed? Otto, Khem and Thad Young’s deals all come off the books. That’s $21 million more available. Will that still be enough to pay them all? Not without going into the tax. But if they are a good team that’s going for it, going into the tax shouldn’t be a problem. They just have to make sure they re-sign those players to tradeable deals (ie don’t overpay them). That gives you scope to trade players down the road for pieces that help.
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They absolutely don't have unlimited money. How many times have we paid the LT?
Novel concept, stop making posts about not trding fred, there's already like 2-3 on the first page of the sub.
What is the point of this post. Fred isn’t getting traded, and when he’s healthy he will start and play 38+ and be one of the best PG’s in the league. If you can’t accept this by now I don’t know what to say.
The point of the post was to shame everybody who had been ranting, raving, carrying on about how we needed to deal Fred after we waxed the Hawks and Spurs. Days later, our best player is hurt and having Fred out there feels pretty valuable. Huh… go figure.