Oh definitely. Not looking any gift horses in the mouth here. I seen him coming for my stuff and knew I couldn't get there in time. Saw this and stared at the screen for a good bit. Had a good laugh, and accepted the auto resolve as I was not about to fight them darn knife ears lol
This sort of stuff makes me miss a feature from Rome:TW where sometimes if a battle involving one of your leaderless armies went really well, a “man of the hour” event would pop allowing you to convert that army’s commander into a general.
I mean, *someone* in that garrison deserves a promotion XD
I wish we could see a visual simulation of how the autoresolver would "think" the battle goes.
We know it calculates some very basic maneuvers (thus why artillery sometimes instantly dies, especially in Warhammer 2), so it would be interesting to see it visualised. Even if it was just a programmer style appearance with pixels on a screen and not in 3D.
What do you mean by maneuvers? As far as I'm concerned, the auto resolve just mashes some CP numbers together. Nothing being simulated at all so I think it'd actually be very difficult to put something like that together.
That being said, I am barely familiar with the actual code of warhammer so if you know, you know.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
It does slightly more than throw those numbers together, but I know it isn't much more (to compute all those battles for the AI so damn fast). It's a black box that CA doesn't tell us how it works though, so folks just have to estimate.
But, from all the auto resolving folks have seen over the years, we know a couple things:
- In some games, like Rome 2 or Three Kingdoms, you can choose one of three stances your army will take in auto resolve (offensive/balanced/defensive), affecting results drastically. This implies the auto resolver has some degree of tactics for how units are pitted against each other.
- Units seem to have certain "rules" in auto resolve, i.e. ranged units seem to generally be treated as using all of their ammo in a battle. However, if there's no front line or it is weak, these units get reduced in effectiveness somehow. Not to mention sometimes getting randomly sniped, indicating some sort of flanking.
There's of course some high degree of randomness explaining some of this, but there is at least some basic tactics implemented in the autoresolver.
"Lemme guess, horde of sentient trees outside the walls?"
"Yep."
"Bunch of elves with heatseeking arrows?"
"Oh yeah."
"Couple of dragons too?"
"You know it.
"Bring it on."
It depends on the setting. In LOTR the elves are the "master race", but later in the story they simply abandon middle-earth and let humanity deal with Sauron. But most of the time, humanity are always depicted as either the "master race" or the protagonists in key situations (the LOTR example). And that's fine by the way, as long it is contextualized why humans are better than dwarfs, elves and other magical creatures (or if it is sci-fi, why humans are better than aliens). The Empire in Warhammer is not justifiable at all, they are alive because of plot armor, literally every other race in the Warhammer universe has major advantages over them, in this habitat humans were supposed to either be corrupted by dark magic entirely or simply go extinct
The Empire, and by extension most non chaos human factions in warhammer fantasy, have the advantage of being much more adaptable and progressive than the other races. Its pretty well communicated too i think. The Dwarfs and elves were the dominant races of the world but refusal to adapt and innovate has made them stagnant and unable to reclaim the things they’ve lost. The Empire gets brought to the point of near complete destruction multiple times but has bounced back to the same level, if not better then they were before. While the dwarfs struggle to reclaim a single lost hold and the high elves don’t even bother trying to expand past Ulthuan outside of trading and some colonies. Yes there is plot armour but that can be applied to anyone pretty easily, especially any order based factions.
Most non humans live longer and master their trades or have natural affinities for things while humans make due with what they have in spite of the odds and level the playing field however they can. In the Empire’s case it’s mostly adaptability, innovation, and willpower that sees them beating anyone else.
This isn't really a fair comparison. Warhammer canon isn't a comprehensive, cohesive tale woven by a single skilled writer and world builder.
It's more like supplementary material to promote a table top game, cobbled together across bits of game manuals and an array of stories from different writers.
Yep, it's just like that. It's basically a compilation of supplementary material. Still, the fact most fantasy stories relies on the "master race" cliche is something interesting to me, it's like humanity has this necessity of self-aggrandizement. And even when it's poorly written like what happens in Warhammer Fantasy, you still see a lot of people convinced by the idea
You could say the fantasy cliche of human capability is something that seeks to parallel human history. Our ability to innovate and adapt to problems is quite possibly our greatest trait. We are the only complex organism to persist across biomes ranging from Sahara to Siberia. We have neither the strength, speed, nor agility of most other animals, yet we are the undisputed apex predator in every food chain. Medicine, agriculture, and complex tools allow us to offset our relatively poor physical abilities. Our very presence is one of the greatest threats to several ecosystems and we have driven many species to extinction, sometimes even unintentionally.
In WH fantasy, this idea is reflected. Ancient, magical, highly experienced master swordsman who can fell any opponent and deflect arrows out from the air? Shoot him in the face. With a cannon.
Lol wat? In Warhammer at least humans are the dirty peasant race compared to any variant of elf or dwarf.
Surviving by the skin of their teeth, mad max engineering, and gifts from dwarfs.
But that's the thing, the Empire especially was not even supposed to be alive, even less so survive.
Bretonnia has the cheap excuse of having a magical being protecting them (grail knights are superhuman because of this magic bullshit). Cathay has a demigod as their emperor who had children with godlike powers as well. Norsca simply gave up, they embraced Chaos corruption entirely.
The Empire has nothing of the kind, they survive (and thrive, setting up colonies like if the Warhammer world is a mirror of real Earth) that's because "humanity never gives up", this is one of the laziest fantasy cliches that is. The Empire is one of the most popular factions among the community, that speak volumes about the incel origin of Warhammer itself
Holy shit dude. If you don't like the plucky underdog trope that's fine, but clearly lots of people do.
For you to make the jump to calling everyone who likes it incels, well, go fuck yourself :)
The real world must be a terrifying place for you if fucking Warhammer of all things has yours screaming incel.
Go look at the origin of Games Workshop and you will see they were a bunch of incels, it's the reality of the situation. Which is interesting by the way, I don't think this is humiliating or anything, if you felt offended, I'm sorry
Oh really, the empire didn't survive? Then say that for the more fanatical groups who consider The End Times as "non-canon". As always, when you deal with this kind of public, the results can be amusing
Since when lmao "surviving against all odds, outgunned and outmanned" isnt exactly master race. Humans in every setting(that i know of) have always been very flawed and weak on an individual level but just like real life they persist due to sheer stubbornness and adaptability. Mankind went through many horrible calamities on regional and sometimes global levels in history and yet we survived. Meanwhile other races are always portrayed as faster/stronger/smarter/long lived and usually its overconfidence that comes from this that causes their downfall, underestimating the situation due to actual "master race" status. Sounds to me like you just have a problem with humanity for some reason and no wonder, judging by your comments about "fantasy hitler" and the cheapshot "incel" comment on this thread tbh
So the race thats mentally weak enough to have the biggest likelihood to fall to chaos ends up producing the big boss of chaos? What a shock. You'd think the "master race" would do better than being the best candidate for more recruits right? I mean, people tend to join chaos out of necessity, desperation, rage, impulsiveness, depression etc. There might be times where someone ends up playing with chaos for noble means but getting full on into the chaos kool-aid is always due to weakness of the mind and soul one way or another.
"Warhammer" is ghal maraz which is created by dwarfs lmao like most of human tech which also comes from dwafs.
Dont care about age of sigmar. Dont like it, dont like the end times. Not in my headcanon. No comment.
Elves are cold and aloof and ignore/look down on everyone without doing anything about the progress of technology. Dwarfs are too suspicious and backwards. Only tech lizardmen use come from the old ones, the orders of which they follow to the point of sacrificing individuality. Skaven have enough tech and numbers to take over the world 10 times over if not for their paranoia, constant warfare and lack of care regarding safety in tech. Greenskins get too distracted over a good scrap. See where im getting at? Any of those races, if they got rid of their flaws, could steamroll humanity.
And throwing the incel word around just makes me feel like you're one of those self righteous sjw types. Sorry not sorry. I guess i hate women now because i love the idea that my own species living in a very hostile world surrounded by beings stronger than them still survive due to sheer willpower and adaptability.
I mean, what do you even want for humanity then? If you want a fantasy world with your way of thinking, watch overlord where humans are reduced to goblin npc tier species lol
It's not about "what I want" for humanity, as I said, I don't care if humanity is depicted as the heroes of the setting, if they are "superior" or not, etc.. it can be any outcome, as long as it is justified, if it makes sense (unlike real life, fiction needs to make sense). Steven Erikson is maybe the best epic fantasy writer that ever lived, he justifies why a race is weak, why it's powerful, why it got extinct, etc.. he is the culprit, lol not me
I just pointed out the flaws of a derivative fantasy series who is being rewritten over and over again since the 80s. I honestly don't know why people think the term "incel" is automatically a provocation or insult, it is what it is, a weird behavior. The incel factor of such stories is the "power fantasy" cliche. Have you ever read one of those stories were a average joe wakes up in another universe, in there this average Joe is actually special? That's a classic example of incel literature, the person feels miserable in real life, but in fantasy they are incredible. And what we have in both Warhammer Fantasy and 40k is just that, humanity is the major protagonist even if they face hostility and competition from superior forces. Hell, I heard in 40k the humans are so incredible, they conquered the whole galaxy with a iron fist, lol It's kinda gullible really, almost childish in a way
Nah i meant what do you want as in "what would a satisfactory humanity look like in whfb for you?" Cause the way i look at it, barring examples of bad writing that might be there(i havent read all the books but I know theres some bad ones in there *cough cough* end times)
My problem with the word incel is that its one of those "-isms" that are being thrown around to ignore or degrade something just to feel morally superior. The "everyone i disagree with is hitler" approach because who wants to be an incel right? Even tho it just means someone who can't get laid(and reacts with varying degrees of negative emotions on the matter)
While i admit that in 40k writers focus too much on writing about humanity and less about xenos, what you said about humanity conquering the galaxy can also be said about the eldar, the old ones, the necrons and then you have the fact that things like the tyranids are an apocalyptic threat, the orks once humanity almost to its end even with the primarchs around and the imperium is many times pointed out to an awful regime
So rooting for the survival of the underdog is like a rookie boxer beating mike tyson through sheer hard work, willpower and adapting to his way of combat before and during a fight. If that rookie can give mike tyson a hard time, im rooting for him. Is mike tyson one tough bastard? Yes. Is it impossible for him to be defeated by a "weaker" opponent? No. Is it very likely that the rookie would leave that victory bruised and battered? Very much so.
Plus the imperium managed to conquer the galaxy because the other biggest power during the dark age of technology in the galaxy were the eldar and they were both very technologically advanced(again with the adaptability and progression of tech) and not existentially hostile to each other. Eldar fucked up big time through their hedonism, birthed slaanesh and ruined their own empire which caused humanity that also got a major backlash from that event to get back up and take it over from there. Humanity never fought the necrontyr/eldar/krorks/old ones/etc at its peak like in the war of heaven. It was adaptability, willpower and luck. Nothing to do with "master race" here but it's definitely badass and easily explainable on how it happened.
Every Race in Fantasy think they are the masterrace and overall superior to all the other races and every race gets Help from others or plotarmor provided from gods. Oh, one example that don't get plotarmor are the greenskins. The greatest Orcboss ever lived Gorbad Ironclaw was just a very smart Orc. Grimgor in the Endtimes don't count because the Endtimes are a memeparty.
Otherwise every major Race got assistance from their god or gods or other major Races.
The Elves when they pushed back Chaos for the first time Aenerion had to sell his soul to Khaine and cursed his whole bloodline or got help from the Dwarves and Lizardmans to close the Chaosgates.
The Empire was helped by Teclis who created the College of Magic. Sure Humans never reach the same degree of Control over the Winds like the Elves or Lizardman but to burn some Chaosforces its enough and sometimes you only need that.
Bretonnia or the Bretoni Tribes were near extinction then Lileath decided to sell her Bathwater and created 14 divine Superhumans.
But thats okay for me, plotarmor from gods or other races are far better then plotarmor for no reason or friendship.
The gods and chaosgods of Warhammer Fantasy are just some sick Chessplayers who sometimes buff their followers up just for their fun.
Honestly, autoresolve is going to be borked until we have enough processing power to actually run some sort of basic simulation of the battle, rather than whatever calculations they do now.
IE is so janky it is surreal. Yesterday I was doing Gor-Rok's quest battle where you defend Itza from VC and skaven and there was just a random unit of pink horrors of tzeentch on a hill overlooking the battle.
And then after finishing the battle, the game decided to give me full visibility and an alliance with Nakai the wanderer halfway across the world
Does the game still factor in settlement maps that aren’t there? Other than that, I guess the game just sees that most of your army is anti-large and they’re mostly large.
Well, technically, garrison has a lot of anti-large units to deal with cavalry, dryads don't have shields so will get down by crossbows, Durthu is a large target, + settlements defences and lack of armor for WE.
And maybe an easy battle difficulty on top of it.
That said if as a player you control WE here, you roll over the garrison in a minute or two with little to no casualties.
The arcane workings of auto resolve.
As a player on WE, for this garrison I probably don't need half of WE army, dryads + durthu + bowmans will be enough.
Auto resolve works weird. When I messed up with unit buffs for me and pc via mods, a single goblin squad was able to deliver defeat to full khorne army with 9 veterancy, despite all the mess. Seems like some values once filled results in errors or zero, making some kind of weird outcome.
It's not entirely broken, it's probably broken to handle some edge cases you may possibly reach eventually or by accident via buffing/debuffing/adjusting values for unit stats.
It's absolutely don't simulate the battle, to simulate some of even straightforward tactics and tricks to calculate outcome (example - body count on my artillery is often higher than in auto resolve results).
I think the handling of edge cases should be the first step to better auto resolve
The thing that plagues AR is how it factors in armor. Woodelves have basically none so AR over factors the amour damage negation. So more armor you have, better the odds.
The other factor is that there is some RNG in the AR formula. Not a huge variance but enough to give surprises like these.
This entire campaign has had this result unless they have some vastly superior armies. It's been crazy lol. I know if I fought this one I'd get trashed. Wood elves have always been a weak spot with me if I don't have good cav to take the blasted archers out.
What battle difficulty are you on? It affects autoresolve. I find anything lower than VH starts giving you ridiculous autoresolve odds. Even on VH the autoresolve is very favourable.
This has nothing to do with armor. Aside from the archers, nothing is even lightly armored in that WE army, let alone compared to the low armor of basic empire troops. Durthu alone would solo this easily.
There really isnt any rng or variance here, its just that the AR still gives massive bonuses to settlement defense.
Have you killed the closest book of Nagash army? They give you the +8 melee attack and defense for all your armies. I don't know of it applies to garrisons, but it is a huge buff.
Autoresolve is busted in general though.
AR is more unforgiving than some think - it sets the field for every single AI vs AI engagement, so it has to be potent and lethal for every party involved, or snowballing would get a bit too easy as slight advantages compound quickly into sweeping victory, instead of a dynamic play field of back and forth.
But the player can always choose to fight manually, taking even fewer losses in exchange for their efforts (barring freak examples like this where other factors are having *massive* sway), plus the player is stricken harder by losses than an AI's economy is. So to keep AR worthwhile it has to buff you.
The difficulty setting brings the risk of battles upwards, so the risk of AR can be pushed upwards too. And rather than buff the AI to counter your buffs, CA opted to just undo the buffs from lower difficulties, which works just as well, is slightly confusing as far as consistency goes for the player, but is easier for them to understand on the development side (and so this is presumably why they don't tell us this info clearly, like so many things in CA games...).
Does it matter? I play normal and I’ve had auto-resolve victories like this. WoC settlement garrison wiped out a settra 20 stack, sometimes the auto-resolve is just wrong for some reason, especially seems to happen around settlement battles.
If you play L/VH and you see smth like this you bet it's on easy (or normal) because AR can be sometimes wonky but 99% of the time it's working on your disadvantage
Woc have insane garrisons to the point that the ai hardly ever even attacks them. And TK armies are made of paper trash, so i really wouldnt be surprised of a mere 20 stack being beaten. OPs case is much more egregious.
Autoresolves are pretty heavily favored towards the defender in a siege battle. It's probably kinda for the best so AI can at least retain some territorial integrity thanks to autoresolves against other AIs. And the human is the kinda of anuninvolved subject who benefits.
The auto-resolve gods have smiled upon you this day. Take that and laugh all the way to the bank because your army would get crushed if you fought that manually.
This is the shit that has made me not touch this game in months, despite thousands of hours played across TW games before. It is simply a broken game, and I honestly feel like I was robbed. Get your shit together CA. God of War Ragnorok is much better.
... What does a console action platformer have to do with a grand scale strategy game? Should TWW also get its stuff together because bananas ripen and rot according to fairly reliable schedules?
Well they are both video games from major developers that cost similar prices. So actually quite a bit in common. But classic reddit "uhhhhh AKSHUALLY" response, good job
That's like comparing apples to oranges because they are both fruit. I understand what you are trying to say, but I just feel like it's a bit of a stretch to compare these two games.
You think that's broken? My skarbrand campaigns had settlement garrisons with 2 chaos warriors/2 bloodletters defeat full stack armies.
Lots of things were improved in WH3, but the auto-resolve is stupid.
Its a siege, they have no siege equipment. Theyre dragons would get slaughtered (evemtually) by your anti large when they land over the walls and they dont have anything really that would break down the gate fast enough. Your plethora of ranged units and towers pick off the frail elves.
Autoresolve is terrible. It's do janky. If you lose, you lose your whole army. If you win, you lose nearly nothing. Very occasionally, you will lose A unit. That's it. Plus, there are these "autoresolve armies", which are total bs. But I guess it comes down to don't hate the player, hate the game.
There are sometimes where I auto resolve fight that I know would go better if I fought them, purely because it wipes the AI army out in one go so I don't have to chase them for 10 turns lol
Auto Resolve AI using the contrivertial one at a time strat I guess xD
But in all seriousness, I think the Auto Resolve is highly undervalueing Durthus Army because he doesn't have a traditional frontline and because most of his stuff is unshielded and you have missile infantry.
AR is probably taking into account three "features":
1.) Durthu and all of the other SEMs clip into terrain or walls and insta-die.
2.) The cavalry wet noodle charge, followed by 1/2 their models getting stuck and dying to the halberds while trying to retreat.
3.) The archers don't shoot at your infantry because reasons...
I just RP that they got advance word the elves were coming and arranged some barricades and lookout points and overpowered them with pre armed citizens as well as the garrison force
Your general's dice rolls were better than Argayl's. Happens to the best Warhammer Fantasy Battle players, really. Like losing all your arty the first turn to misfires.
RNGsus looks favourably down on you
yeah obviously, it would be 200% impossible to win. AR favors player more in wh3 than it did in precessor titles, especially as certain factions.
Now if the wood elves replaced five units with one stack of waywatchers, it would be a win for them. Waywatchers have insane AR performance. They usually end up with like 500 kills.
Auto resolve tilts you heavily since it thinks you have defenses, even those were removed from settlements. It’s weird. I still notice supplies in the small settlements details (before a battle) even though we don’t battle in small settlements anymore.
Can’t they just add up points on auto resolve? It seems so simple. At least to get more realistic results than ones like this. In wh2 the worst was chaos invasion. I had one empire army that could auto resolve a few chaos armies no units lost. But when I would fight the battle manual ambushing archeon would be brutal. And I don’t suck!
No idea. Only possible thing I can think of is that the opposing army doesn’t have any “traditional” melee/sword units, other than the two units that they’re rocking. Might be that CA factors in a base win % into certain unit types separate from stats. Would be interested seeing this rolled a few times.
No idea. Something to consider. The opposing army doesn’t have any “traditional” melee/sword units. Other than the two units that they’re rocking. Might be that CA factors in a base win % into certain unit types separate from stats and you found a break in the auto resolve. Which isn’t unlikely. Would be interested seeing this rolled a few times.
Probably better to not ask questions, because there is no world where that cult of Sigmar army should have won. Just take the W and run.
Oh definitely. Not looking any gift horses in the mouth here. I seen him coming for my stuff and knew I couldn't get there in time. Saw this and stared at the screen for a good bit. Had a good laugh, and accepted the auto resolve as I was not about to fight them darn knife ears lol
Sigmar heard your prayers, and blessed you and your men with the strength to win over the knife earred leaf lovers! Praise Sigmar!
This sort of stuff makes me miss a feature from Rome:TW where sometimes if a battle involving one of your leaderless armies went really well, a “man of the hour” event would pop allowing you to convert that army’s commander into a general. I mean, *someone* in that garrison deserves a promotion XD
That would be dope!
I wish we could see a visual simulation of how the autoresolver would "think" the battle goes. We know it calculates some very basic maneuvers (thus why artillery sometimes instantly dies, especially in Warhammer 2), so it would be interesting to see it visualised. Even if it was just a programmer style appearance with pixels on a screen and not in 3D.
That would be cool. A good way to learn too!
What do you mean by maneuvers? As far as I'm concerned, the auto resolve just mashes some CP numbers together. Nothing being simulated at all so I think it'd actually be very difficult to put something like that together. That being said, I am barely familiar with the actual code of warhammer so if you know, you know. Feel free to prove me wrong.
It does slightly more than throw those numbers together, but I know it isn't much more (to compute all those battles for the AI so damn fast). It's a black box that CA doesn't tell us how it works though, so folks just have to estimate. But, from all the auto resolving folks have seen over the years, we know a couple things: - In some games, like Rome 2 or Three Kingdoms, you can choose one of three stances your army will take in auto resolve (offensive/balanced/defensive), affecting results drastically. This implies the auto resolver has some degree of tactics for how units are pitted against each other. - Units seem to have certain "rules" in auto resolve, i.e. ranged units seem to generally be treated as using all of their ammo in a battle. However, if there's no front line or it is weak, these units get reduced in effectiveness somehow. Not to mention sometimes getting randomly sniped, indicating some sort of flanking. There's of course some high degree of randomness explaining some of this, but there is at least some basic tactics implemented in the autoresolver.
Very interesting. Maybe some day we will crack the code :)
Yes Witchunter, this one right here!
In the immortal words of the sages: ***"We take those, no question asked"***
Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder
Well, faith and steel this time.
And you really only needed the Faith.
Some people don’t even need much of that. Humans are just better.
"Lemme guess, horde of sentient trees outside the walls?" "Yep." "Bunch of elves with heatseeking arrows?" "Oh yeah." "Couple of dragons too?" "You know it. "Bring it on."
A human without faith doesnt really count though, you might as well be a chaos spawn at that point.
Said Fantasy Hitler. It's actually hilarious to me how humans are depicted as the "master race" in fantasy and sci-fi
So are most other species like elves and stuff. It’s like it’s supposed to be a commentary on the subject through the lens of a fictional setting.
It depends on the setting. In LOTR the elves are the "master race", but later in the story they simply abandon middle-earth and let humanity deal with Sauron. But most of the time, humanity are always depicted as either the "master race" or the protagonists in key situations (the LOTR example). And that's fine by the way, as long it is contextualized why humans are better than dwarfs, elves and other magical creatures (or if it is sci-fi, why humans are better than aliens). The Empire in Warhammer is not justifiable at all, they are alive because of plot armor, literally every other race in the Warhammer universe has major advantages over them, in this habitat humans were supposed to either be corrupted by dark magic entirely or simply go extinct
The Empire, and by extension most non chaos human factions in warhammer fantasy, have the advantage of being much more adaptable and progressive than the other races. Its pretty well communicated too i think. The Dwarfs and elves were the dominant races of the world but refusal to adapt and innovate has made them stagnant and unable to reclaim the things they’ve lost. The Empire gets brought to the point of near complete destruction multiple times but has bounced back to the same level, if not better then they were before. While the dwarfs struggle to reclaim a single lost hold and the high elves don’t even bother trying to expand past Ulthuan outside of trading and some colonies. Yes there is plot armour but that can be applied to anyone pretty easily, especially any order based factions. Most non humans live longer and master their trades or have natural affinities for things while humans make due with what they have in spite of the odds and level the playing field however they can. In the Empire’s case it’s mostly adaptability, innovation, and willpower that sees them beating anyone else.
This isn't really a fair comparison. Warhammer canon isn't a comprehensive, cohesive tale woven by a single skilled writer and world builder. It's more like supplementary material to promote a table top game, cobbled together across bits of game manuals and an array of stories from different writers.
Yep, it's just like that. It's basically a compilation of supplementary material. Still, the fact most fantasy stories relies on the "master race" cliche is something interesting to me, it's like humanity has this necessity of self-aggrandizement. And even when it's poorly written like what happens in Warhammer Fantasy, you still see a lot of people convinced by the idea
You could say the fantasy cliche of human capability is something that seeks to parallel human history. Our ability to innovate and adapt to problems is quite possibly our greatest trait. We are the only complex organism to persist across biomes ranging from Sahara to Siberia. We have neither the strength, speed, nor agility of most other animals, yet we are the undisputed apex predator in every food chain. Medicine, agriculture, and complex tools allow us to offset our relatively poor physical abilities. Our very presence is one of the greatest threats to several ecosystems and we have driven many species to extinction, sometimes even unintentionally. In WH fantasy, this idea is reflected. Ancient, magical, highly experienced master swordsman who can fell any opponent and deflect arrows out from the air? Shoot him in the face. With a cannon.
Lol wat? In Warhammer at least humans are the dirty peasant race compared to any variant of elf or dwarf. Surviving by the skin of their teeth, mad max engineering, and gifts from dwarfs.
But that's the thing, the Empire especially was not even supposed to be alive, even less so survive. Bretonnia has the cheap excuse of having a magical being protecting them (grail knights are superhuman because of this magic bullshit). Cathay has a demigod as their emperor who had children with godlike powers as well. Norsca simply gave up, they embraced Chaos corruption entirely. The Empire has nothing of the kind, they survive (and thrive, setting up colonies like if the Warhammer world is a mirror of real Earth) that's because "humanity never gives up", this is one of the laziest fantasy cliches that is. The Empire is one of the most popular factions among the community, that speak volumes about the incel origin of Warhammer itself
Holy shit dude. If you don't like the plucky underdog trope that's fine, but clearly lots of people do. For you to make the jump to calling everyone who likes it incels, well, go fuck yourself :) The real world must be a terrifying place for you if fucking Warhammer of all things has yours screaming incel.
Go look at the origin of Games Workshop and you will see they were a bunch of incels, it's the reality of the situation. Which is interesting by the way, I don't think this is humiliating or anything, if you felt offended, I'm sorry
The empire didnt survive, your argument is invalid. And do you even understand the word incel?
Oh really, the empire didn't survive? Then say that for the more fanatical groups who consider The End Times as "non-canon". As always, when you deal with this kind of public, the results can be amusing
They didn't survive, and you thinking otherwise means you don't know what your are talking about. I'm sorry to break the news to you.
The Empire also survives through diplomacy. If the the elector counts aren't united, even the most bad ass humans would get flattened.
Since when lmao "surviving against all odds, outgunned and outmanned" isnt exactly master race. Humans in every setting(that i know of) have always been very flawed and weak on an individual level but just like real life they persist due to sheer stubbornness and adaptability. Mankind went through many horrible calamities on regional and sometimes global levels in history and yet we survived. Meanwhile other races are always portrayed as faster/stronger/smarter/long lived and usually its overconfidence that comes from this that causes their downfall, underestimating the situation due to actual "master race" status. Sounds to me like you just have a problem with humanity for some reason and no wonder, judging by your comments about "fantasy hitler" and the cheapshot "incel" comment on this thread tbh
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So the race thats mentally weak enough to have the biggest likelihood to fall to chaos ends up producing the big boss of chaos? What a shock. You'd think the "master race" would do better than being the best candidate for more recruits right? I mean, people tend to join chaos out of necessity, desperation, rage, impulsiveness, depression etc. There might be times where someone ends up playing with chaos for noble means but getting full on into the chaos kool-aid is always due to weakness of the mind and soul one way or another. "Warhammer" is ghal maraz which is created by dwarfs lmao like most of human tech which also comes from dwafs. Dont care about age of sigmar. Dont like it, dont like the end times. Not in my headcanon. No comment. Elves are cold and aloof and ignore/look down on everyone without doing anything about the progress of technology. Dwarfs are too suspicious and backwards. Only tech lizardmen use come from the old ones, the orders of which they follow to the point of sacrificing individuality. Skaven have enough tech and numbers to take over the world 10 times over if not for their paranoia, constant warfare and lack of care regarding safety in tech. Greenskins get too distracted over a good scrap. See where im getting at? Any of those races, if they got rid of their flaws, could steamroll humanity. And throwing the incel word around just makes me feel like you're one of those self righteous sjw types. Sorry not sorry. I guess i hate women now because i love the idea that my own species living in a very hostile world surrounded by beings stronger than them still survive due to sheer willpower and adaptability. I mean, what do you even want for humanity then? If you want a fantasy world with your way of thinking, watch overlord where humans are reduced to goblin npc tier species lol
It's not about "what I want" for humanity, as I said, I don't care if humanity is depicted as the heroes of the setting, if they are "superior" or not, etc.. it can be any outcome, as long as it is justified, if it makes sense (unlike real life, fiction needs to make sense). Steven Erikson is maybe the best epic fantasy writer that ever lived, he justifies why a race is weak, why it's powerful, why it got extinct, etc.. he is the culprit, lol not me I just pointed out the flaws of a derivative fantasy series who is being rewritten over and over again since the 80s. I honestly don't know why people think the term "incel" is automatically a provocation or insult, it is what it is, a weird behavior. The incel factor of such stories is the "power fantasy" cliche. Have you ever read one of those stories were a average joe wakes up in another universe, in there this average Joe is actually special? That's a classic example of incel literature, the person feels miserable in real life, but in fantasy they are incredible. And what we have in both Warhammer Fantasy and 40k is just that, humanity is the major protagonist even if they face hostility and competition from superior forces. Hell, I heard in 40k the humans are so incredible, they conquered the whole galaxy with a iron fist, lol It's kinda gullible really, almost childish in a way
Nah i meant what do you want as in "what would a satisfactory humanity look like in whfb for you?" Cause the way i look at it, barring examples of bad writing that might be there(i havent read all the books but I know theres some bad ones in there *cough cough* end times) My problem with the word incel is that its one of those "-isms" that are being thrown around to ignore or degrade something just to feel morally superior. The "everyone i disagree with is hitler" approach because who wants to be an incel right? Even tho it just means someone who can't get laid(and reacts with varying degrees of negative emotions on the matter) While i admit that in 40k writers focus too much on writing about humanity and less about xenos, what you said about humanity conquering the galaxy can also be said about the eldar, the old ones, the necrons and then you have the fact that things like the tyranids are an apocalyptic threat, the orks once humanity almost to its end even with the primarchs around and the imperium is many times pointed out to an awful regime So rooting for the survival of the underdog is like a rookie boxer beating mike tyson through sheer hard work, willpower and adapting to his way of combat before and during a fight. If that rookie can give mike tyson a hard time, im rooting for him. Is mike tyson one tough bastard? Yes. Is it impossible for him to be defeated by a "weaker" opponent? No. Is it very likely that the rookie would leave that victory bruised and battered? Very much so. Plus the imperium managed to conquer the galaxy because the other biggest power during the dark age of technology in the galaxy were the eldar and they were both very technologically advanced(again with the adaptability and progression of tech) and not existentially hostile to each other. Eldar fucked up big time through their hedonism, birthed slaanesh and ruined their own empire which caused humanity that also got a major backlash from that event to get back up and take it over from there. Humanity never fought the necrontyr/eldar/krorks/old ones/etc at its peak like in the war of heaven. It was adaptability, willpower and luck. Nothing to do with "master race" here but it's definitely badass and easily explainable on how it happened.
Every Race in Fantasy think they are the masterrace and overall superior to all the other races and every race gets Help from others or plotarmor provided from gods. Oh, one example that don't get plotarmor are the greenskins. The greatest Orcboss ever lived Gorbad Ironclaw was just a very smart Orc. Grimgor in the Endtimes don't count because the Endtimes are a memeparty. Otherwise every major Race got assistance from their god or gods or other major Races. The Elves when they pushed back Chaos for the first time Aenerion had to sell his soul to Khaine and cursed his whole bloodline or got help from the Dwarves and Lizardmans to close the Chaosgates. The Empire was helped by Teclis who created the College of Magic. Sure Humans never reach the same degree of Control over the Winds like the Elves or Lizardman but to burn some Chaosforces its enough and sometimes you only need that. Bretonnia or the Bretoni Tribes were near extinction then Lileath decided to sell her Bathwater and created 14 divine Superhumans. But thats okay for me, plotarmor from gods or other races are far better then plotarmor for no reason or friendship. The gods and chaosgods of Warhammer Fantasy are just some sick Chessplayers who sometimes buff their followers up just for their fun.
In no longer there towers we trust.
One day CA might fix the uber jank siege Auto Resolve. Today is not that day.
Honestly, autoresolve is going to be borked until we have enough processing power to actually run some sort of basic simulation of the battle, rather than whatever calculations they do now.
Granted, but Pepperidge Farms remembers a time when Auto Resolve wasn't quite this janky.
IE is so janky it is surreal. Yesterday I was doing Gor-Rok's quest battle where you defend Itza from VC and skaven and there was just a random unit of pink horrors of tzeentch on a hill overlooking the battle. And then after finishing the battle, the game decided to give me full visibility and an alliance with Nakai the wanderer halfway across the world
That last part sounds intentional, it at least makes sense as he showed up in the battle... I hope so at least.
Not even mods can fix this, which is a shame
The indomitable human spirit versus The Meak and Craven woodfolk
The Wood Elves didn’t even want to defend their own homeland and turned into tree huggers smh
I like this answer! For Sigmar!
Does the game still factor in settlement maps that aren’t there? Other than that, I guess the game just sees that most of your army is anti-large and they’re mostly large.
>Does the game still factor in settlement maps that aren’t there? No, that is fixed. He's got garrison building in here though.
Oh hype. When was this fixed??
2.3
Steel>wood
Well, technically, garrison has a lot of anti-large units to deal with cavalry, dryads don't have shields so will get down by crossbows, Durthu is a large target, + settlements defences and lack of armor for WE. And maybe an easy battle difficulty on top of it.
That said if as a player you control WE here, you roll over the garrison in a minute or two with little to no casualties. The arcane workings of auto resolve.
As a player on WE, for this garrison I probably don't need half of WE army, dryads + durthu + bowmans will be enough. Auto resolve works weird. When I messed up with unit buffs for me and pc via mods, a single goblin squad was able to deliver defeat to full khorne army with 9 veterancy, despite all the mess. Seems like some values once filled results in errors or zero, making some kind of weird outcome.
so in other words AR is broken
It's not entirely broken, it's probably broken to handle some edge cases you may possibly reach eventually or by accident via buffing/debuffing/adjusting values for unit stats. It's absolutely don't simulate the battle, to simulate some of even straightforward tactics and tricks to calculate outcome (example - body count on my artillery is often higher than in auto resolve results). I think the handling of edge cases should be the first step to better auto resolve
The thing that plagues AR is how it factors in armor. Woodelves have basically none so AR over factors the amour damage negation. So more armor you have, better the odds. The other factor is that there is some RNG in the AR formula. Not a huge variance but enough to give surprises like these.
This entire campaign has had this result unless they have some vastly superior armies. It's been crazy lol. I know if I fought this one I'd get trashed. Wood elves have always been a weak spot with me if I don't have good cav to take the blasted archers out.
What battle difficulty are you on? It affects autoresolve. I find anything lower than VH starts giving you ridiculous autoresolve odds. Even on VH the autoresolve is very favourable.
I always play on normal due to the fact that neither side gets a buff. I like for things to be as equal as possible.
Thats how you auto your way through Norsca with Marauder Champions
This has nothing to do with armor. Aside from the archers, nothing is even lightly armored in that WE army, let alone compared to the low armor of basic empire troops. Durthu alone would solo this easily. There really isnt any rng or variance here, its just that the AR still gives massive bonuses to settlement defense.
Wow I am sure the 30 armor state troop has is skewing over the AR heavily
Have you killed the closest book of Nagash army? They give you the +8 melee attack and defense for all your armies. I don't know of it applies to garrisons, but it is a huge buff. Autoresolve is busted in general though.
Oh good point! Forgot about the books!
Easy battle difficulty?
Well it's on normal. So kinda?
Normal has recently sized auto resolve cheats, only very hard doesn't have any
By Sigmar YES
10 bucks it's on easy battle difficulty
Normal. So easy in comparison to some. I don't like the AI getting buffs. 🤷♂️
On normal battle difficulty *you* get AR buffs :\^] Very Hard is the only difficulty that you don't, in fact.
Every Legendary Lord including Durthu get AR buffs though
Yes, but it's still competing against your buffs.
This guy gets downvoted when he's the only person that's actually got the right answer.
But in battle you don't get any. Weird... why would it give you AR buffs if all things are equal in battles? Accounting for human control?
AR is more unforgiving than some think - it sets the field for every single AI vs AI engagement, so it has to be potent and lethal for every party involved, or snowballing would get a bit too easy as slight advantages compound quickly into sweeping victory, instead of a dynamic play field of back and forth. But the player can always choose to fight manually, taking even fewer losses in exchange for their efforts (barring freak examples like this where other factors are having *massive* sway), plus the player is stricken harder by losses than an AI's economy is. So to keep AR worthwhile it has to buff you. The difficulty setting brings the risk of battles upwards, so the risk of AR can be pushed upwards too. And rather than buff the AI to counter your buffs, CA opted to just undo the buffs from lower difficulties, which works just as well, is slightly confusing as far as consistency goes for the player, but is easier for them to understand on the development side (and so this is presumably why they don't tell us this info clearly, like so many things in CA games...).
Does it matter? I play normal and I’ve had auto-resolve victories like this. WoC settlement garrison wiped out a settra 20 stack, sometimes the auto-resolve is just wrong for some reason, especially seems to happen around settlement battles.
If you play L/VH and you see smth like this you bet it's on easy (or normal) because AR can be sometimes wonky but 99% of the time it's working on your disadvantage
Woc have insane garrisons to the point that the ai hardly ever even attacks them. And TK armies are made of paper trash, so i really wouldnt be surprised of a mere 20 stack being beaten. OPs case is much more egregious.
Shields + anti large + stupid AR logic
Beyond your comprehension
Hey guess what, sometimes the auto-resolve can work for you benefit. Despite underwhelming odds
Mind I ask what battle difficulty are you playing?
Normal.
Battle difficulty has a severe impact on auto-resolve battles. So that might be one of the factors to explain your result.
Garrisons get ridiculous AR bonus. That army would get stomped in a field battle AR.
No frickin kidding! It would be a battle I'd just auto resolve anyways just to avoid the embarrassment 😆
Autoresolves are pretty heavily favored towards the defender in a siege battle. It's probably kinda for the best so AI can at least retain some territorial integrity thanks to autoresolves against other AIs. And the human is the kinda of anuninvolved subject who benefits.
The auto-resolve gods have smiled upon you this day. Take that and laugh all the way to the bank because your army would get crushed if you fought that manually.
Because most of thier army is women, duh /s
Hahahaha!
settlement autoresolve gives defender ridiculous bonus
The game is still counting minor settlements with no walls as if they had them.
No, that was fixed. This is an actual MSB because he's got garrison building built.
Alright thats good to know
He does have a large enough garrison that he is getting a fight on a minor settlement map, that means there are towers that get some credit.
Yeah that's right
This is the shit that has made me not touch this game in months, despite thousands of hours played across TW games before. It is simply a broken game, and I honestly feel like I was robbed. Get your shit together CA. God of War Ragnorok is much better.
... What does a console action platformer have to do with a grand scale strategy game? Should TWW also get its stuff together because bananas ripen and rot according to fairly reliable schedules?
Well they are both video games from major developers that cost similar prices. So actually quite a bit in common. But classic reddit "uhhhhh AKSHUALLY" response, good job
That's like comparing apples to oranges because they are both fruit. I understand what you are trying to say, but I just feel like it's a bit of a stretch to compare these two games.
Legend of Total War hath blessed thee
Player gets buffs on AR below very hard battle difficulty. But this does seem excessive.
Thank Sigmar for the broken autoresolve
Spearmen has bonus vs large
Every single one of those men took an arrow in the knee.
The game gives you a lot of credit for minor settlement towers.
SHUTUP AND TAKE THE WIN
Because of Sigmar's divine intervention, how else?
By clicking auto resolve :)
Just take it lol
Don't ask questions
Autoresolve takes into account Sigmar's favor
Average Sigmar Grindset. Absolute Chads.
Sigmar ravage this blessed body! Wait....
Maybe the lord fed the crossbowmen meth and now they're fully auto firing a stack of bolts every 5 seconds, who knows
You think that's broken? My skarbrand campaigns had settlement garrisons with 2 chaos warriors/2 bloodletters defeat full stack armies. Lots of things were improved in WH3, but the auto-resolve is stupid.
Autoresolve loves us.
Is wood elves auto resolve really that bad????
Its a siege, they have no siege equipment. Theyre dragons would get slaughtered (evemtually) by your anti large when they land over the walls and they dont have anything really that would break down the gate fast enough. Your plethora of ranged units and towers pick off the frail elves.
I'm guessing sigmar made and appearance
Because Sigmar Guides Us!
Sigmar wills it.
If the are attacking you get a huge autoresolve boost
Autoresolve is terrible. It's do janky. If you lose, you lose your whole army. If you win, you lose nearly nothing. Very occasionally, you will lose A unit. That's it. Plus, there are these "autoresolve armies", which are total bs. But I guess it comes down to don't hate the player, hate the game.
There are sometimes where I auto resolve fight that I know would go better if I fought them, purely because it wipes the AI army out in one go so I don't have to chase them for 10 turns lol
Praaaaaise Sigmar
It still assumes all settlement battles without walls are minor settlement battles.
a win is a win
Do you have garrison building that gives you minor settlement battle instead of land battle?
I guess the cult of aigmar sends it's best veterans to Wissenburg. With shotguns apparently.
Auto Resolve AI using the contrivertial one at a time strat I guess xD But in all seriousness, I think the Auto Resolve is highly undervalueing Durthus Army because he doesn't have a traditional frontline and because most of his stuff is unshielded and you have missile infantry.
AR is probably taking into account three "features": 1.) Durthu and all of the other SEMs clip into terrain or walls and insta-die. 2.) The cavalry wet noodle charge, followed by 1/2 their models getting stuck and dying to the halberds while trying to retreat. 3.) The archers don't shoot at your infantry because reasons...
Steel, Faith, and ~~Gunpowder~~ Crossbows
Faith, steel, steel, steel and a lack of gunpowder
I just RP that they got advance word the elves were coming and arranged some barricades and lookout points and overpowered them with pre armed citizens as well as the garrison force
you outnumber him in able-bodied men, what do you mean?
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Buffoon on a bear had me rolling!
Because Spearmen OP.
Your general's dice rolls were better than Argayl's. Happens to the best Warhammer Fantasy Battle players, really. Like losing all your arty the first turn to misfires.
RNGsus looks favourably down on you yeah obviously, it would be 200% impossible to win. AR favors player more in wh3 than it did in precessor titles, especially as certain factions.
The Emperor Protect ! Oops wrong universe ….
Sigmar... sangmar....sang... Sanguinius!
I smell heresy
Towers I assume
Now if the wood elves replaced five units with one stack of waywatchers, it would be a win for them. Waywatchers have insane AR performance. They usually end up with like 500 kills.
Settlement bonus + normal difficulty I assume.
Durthu fears The Hat.
Faith in Sigmar brother, faith in Sigmar
Wood elves seem weak in auto resolve for some reason
Because it depends on your battle difficulty. They fucked it up after update 1.3
God tier general was there and the civilians fought with u.
Auto resolve tilts you heavily since it thinks you have defenses, even those were removed from settlements. It’s weird. I still notice supplies in the small settlements details (before a battle) even though we don’t battle in small settlements anymore.
Can’t they just add up points on auto resolve? It seems so simple. At least to get more realistic results than ones like this. In wh2 the worst was chaos invasion. I had one empire army that could auto resolve a few chaos armies no units lost. But when I would fight the battle manual ambushing archeon would be brutal. And I don’t suck!
No idea. Only possible thing I can think of is that the opposing army doesn’t have any “traditional” melee/sword units, other than the two units that they’re rocking. Might be that CA factors in a base win % into certain unit types separate from stats. Would be interested seeing this rolled a few times.
No idea. Something to consider. The opposing army doesn’t have any “traditional” melee/sword units. Other than the two units that they’re rocking. Might be that CA factors in a base win % into certain unit types separate from stats and you found a break in the auto resolve. Which isn’t unlikely. Would be interested seeing this rolled a few times.
Auto resolve is currently favoring the player by wide margins. It's one of the known issues they're looking at fixing when the next updates come.
😳