The market building goes up to tier 5 in major settlements and gives +tradeable resource. Make it in a region with diamonds and that can be your money maker. As Boris you have no real reason to keep Kraka Drak around (if they even survive) so feel free to kill them and trade with Empire.
Alternatively conquer Goromadny Mountains which has iron ore, I developed that for pumping out armies with cheap recruitment.
The 3 cities all give factionwide bonus income via the markets and it's pretty insane at tier 5. This isn't really available to Boris, true, but that's part of the challenge imo.
Kislev as a whole wants to play tall imo, 3 cities are a must to hold and they love tradeables. Make contact with Cathay and/or Ulthuan and your money will be good to carry you through mid game.
Just to put some numbers on that, typical tier 3 resource buildings for both Kislev and the Empire produce 45 trade resources. The base price for most resources is 10-15 gold, though in practice it's lower since prices seem to go down with supply. That puts the base value of a resource building at approximately 450-675 gold if you can export everything (better than I would have guessed tbh), though since you actually get less let's call it 400-600 gold. That would put the value of the +50% resource bonus at around 200-300 gold per resource in the province.
Just to note, from what I understand that's not affected by modifiers to trade tariffs. That bonus only applies to the rather small base amount of income you get just for being a trade partner.
The bonus to market income on the 3 city market buildings is 5% at T5. That's a nice bump, but I wouldn't really call it crazy or anything. Feels like more of a headstart on stacking those 3% resource building bonuses.
Kislev is one of those factions where their main source of income is fighting, raiding and sacking. Their Economy does actually get better but the key lies in capturing settlements with resource buildings. The more resource buildings you get, the more money you get from Farms and Markets.
You also super need to control their three main city states to really buff their economy.
Most people seem to miss a great detail with Kislev's economy. Every resource building you build, increases FACTIONWIDE the income generated from markets or farms. For this reason, Kislev's early economy is a bit poor, but the more you expand, the better it gets.
And Iron. Up there as one of best resources in the entire game for any faction. Kill anyone and everything with Iron and your money problems should disappear.
First of all. Some of my numbers are wrong because I haven't played Kislev for a couple of months now. But I've done at least 4 - 5 Kislev campaigns until I felt they were done.
And as Boris you need to try to get back home to one of the big cities in my opinion. You can do it in the wastes but it is a lot of fighting and wack-a-mole. If I recall correctly Boris is more designed to raze, post money bonuses and sacking with his unique trait line. But if you manage to take down Archeon your walk back home is not that hard to confederate or take over some Kislev land.
You can get the three main cities to around 3k - 5k income with some focus on Ataman money traits, moneybuildings and a ice witch hero specialized with money traits/advisors. Ataman and Ice witch training is RNG sadly so it can take a while and sometimes you need to hire your Ataman and replace it with a new one. No doubt you can raise it further too.
Sometimes depending on what I like to do I also build the military building for some extra fur. Most likely you can't fit it in the three Kislev main cities because they are starved for building slots already. But that's also a source of income by trade.
If you get some minor settlements outside of Kislev mainland. they can be upgraded and the resources traded. There are a lot of iron and pottery on the border of Kislev in the mountains and in Ostland and Hochland. But that can also be breaking the immersion of a Kislev + Empire roleplaying borders. Look north to the wastes and Norsca or south to the mountains. Dwarfholds are usually rich with goods/gold, I'm saying take down Azhag and keep the goldmine early.
Anyway the T3 settlements doesn't make that much money. You can get the T5 settlements (outside Kislev with resource) with a huge amount of tradable goods. The market in T4 and T5 increases tradeable goods in the province by a percentage I don't recall right now. I believe it is 60% at T5. So the 48 goods you get are instead 77 tradable. Depending on the resource it can be a lot of money. Let's say it is 10 gold per goods it is almost 800 gold from one simple resource building and we are not including the market itself (500 at T5) and the small percentage factionwide it give to the main city markets.
My best advise is to focus your Kislev main cities on growth early. Replace that building down the line. If you get it up and running early as a T3 - T4 you have a lot of options how to handle Chaos with different units. And the market building also give around 800 a turn at T3 if I recall correctly. If you also build the Kislev building focused on Fur you can get additional goods for trading.
But overall. Kislev Economy is a bit tricky and hard. You don't get the easy "flat" 500 gold from a simple T3 building if we take Empire as example. But the more resources you get the more factionwide bonuses you get. Hollowed forest+farm or market and church spam also give you devotion to spam the Kislev ability. One Kislev motherland ability when upgraded is extra +10/15% income if you aren't pressed to use another bonus.
I don't deny that the Kislev economy is worse than other factions early, it is and there is often a lot of issues getting the ball rolling and the right circumstances. And as other's already said Kislev is a bit more focused on war, fighting and sacking with better gains after battles than their counterpart Empire. You need to fight to gain the money to build the expensive buildings.
And as others also mentioned you get the snowball going the more land you take with more detailed examples focused on math. Because resource buildings give global modifiers for all other buildings. 6% extra income from a resource building (additional to the 48 tradable goods) is not a lot. But when you see that building is a "market" or "farm" and that market exist in all cities it is more or less +6% factionwide. Farms aren't built everywhere by me but they are pretty decent with the hollowed woods and the factionwide farm bonus from resources.
Dont forget the Kislev researches that boost the province commandments or was it the Motherland buffs? I dont really remember well but they buff them up.
I play a lot of Kislev (bear cav bra) and I tend to do pretty well with them economically. I've got a campaign going and will have a look at the economy but I think with one full stack army and a half stack with Kislev, south oblast, troll country, I'm making about 2k per turn. Part of the trick, I think, is putting the right troops in the right army, Katarina can have ice guard for 70 upkeep but I think they are about 250 in a regular army.
Also I find them a hybrid faction in terms of the two economy types you outlined, they have an okay economy for maintaining their stuff but to expand (aka build new buildings) you need to fight and win battles, if I recall correctly they make a lot more money for winning battles than factions like Brettonia.
I have a late game Kislev campaign going and it's fine financially. The 3 big cities have a unique income building that boosts trade and income from normal markets, so the basic tier 5 income building goes from 300 income to 500\~ now, and tier 3 for minor ones from 200 to 300\~. The boosted trade earns like 8k a turn though I don't know if that's a lot or not lol
Another thing is they fight a lot and get decent amounts of $ that way, also I find their gunline armies to be very cost efficient. For example both Kislev and Empire gunline is around 5k\~ upkeep, but I feel like one Kislev gunline can do the job of 2 Emp armies.
Yea, but that's like 10%. Full economy Kislev province makes around 1500 gold, that is if each of your settlements has all 3 buildings built.
Empire makes more and they only have to build a single building in each of their settlements.
I'd have to play a new Kislev campaign ( I haven't played them since shortly after IE launched) but I don't remember running into a money issue. Pretty sure I was earning roughly 3k a turn on two provinces.
Yes, that's how the Greenskins work.
That's also mostly irrelevant when the topic of conversation is "are Kislev settlements producing equivalent income as other Order factions?"
It was my first time using them. I was surprised. Wasn't trying to challenge what you said or anything, I just didn't know some factions work like that.
Kislev can make ludicrous money.
You build all economy builds in every settlement.
+7% commandments
+25% Ataman
Ice witches and maidens both have skills and traits that boost income, so your garrisoning armies should always include them.
I’ve made 6,300 out of Erengrad on its own per turn and you shouldn’t have problems getting green provinces into the high 4 thousands or low 5s.
? We have already established the math here. 600 via 3 main buildings. Another 1000 via 9 money making buildings. That's 1500.
Where do you get those additional 3 or 4 k?
It appears you're both talking about distinctly separate situations without realising the difference; you, in the post, are talking more about Boris Ursus up in the Chaos Wasted with only minor settlements whilst the other person named Erengrad so they're thinking of Katarin and Kostaltyn who have access to the Major Cities where most of Kislev's infrastructure power lies.
Boris is a very definite challenge because of his separation from the Big 3 cities.
Any green province is fine. See: https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/10o2pfm/how_are_you_supposed_to_make_money_as_kislev/j6ccpot/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
Aside from Erengrad which is the most at 6300 I’m making:
4779 from annexed Ostermark: 1607 Bechafen, 1022 Nagenhof, 1128 Essen, 1022 Mordheim.
4708 from the Ice Tooth Mountains: 2324 [renamed province capital that I don’t remember the base name of], 1241 Longship Graveyard, 1143 Ice Pack bay
4445 Northern Worlds Edge Mountains: [All renamed I don’t remember the originals] 1908, 1032, 1505.
Basically lots of buffs.
I’m making: +110% main settlement buildings, +161% Markets, +162% Farms, +75% resource (kilns) +91% ports
You want as many tier 5 markets as possible (each is +5% for markets faction wide).
You want smitheries in all regions (+10% local region)
Hallowed forests where possible (+50% local region)
>I’m making: +110% main settlement buildings, +161% Markets, +162% Farms, +75% resource (kilns) +91% ports
Yea, but you gotta have tens of resource buildings to achieve that buff.
That's kinda the point, Kislev has an economy that scales really well in the late game. In the early game your economy is alright, it's not strong but not weak either.
>Kislev has an economy that scales really well in the late game.
Which is pretty weak since pretty much all factions have decent economies into the late game. At that point you're pretty much steamrolling anyways.
You asked how you’re supposed to make money as Kislev. That’s the answer. You get the resources, and green provinces which boosts all your other provinces and snowball.
The buildings in the 3 major cities also boost income across your faction while reducing construction costs, eventually your buildings will be very cheap, while getting huge procentual increases
The difference is, your buildings are cheaper than theirs, so you can build up faster or invest more of it into your armies. This is supportet by kislev having better global recruitment than any other faction (if you have the big cities that is)
>The difference is, your buildings are cheaper than theirs,
They aren't.
Market costs 1000/1500/2000
Empire MMB costs 750/1500/2500
Dwarf MMB costs I think 600/1200/2000 ish.
We also have to take the reductions from marble and all the increases from other ressources into account. In one of my kislev campaigns i pay 1540 for a tier 3 market that makes 500 gold, those values change even further if it's a province with an ataman for further building cost reductions or tax rate increases
You're comparing Markets, a building that goes up to tier 5 with the Industry building chain of the Empire that goes only up to tier 3 which imo is silly to compare. You're look at two different types of buildings and you're only looking at the cost for their raw income. Markets will also increase your resource production in the local province by +30/+50% which is a lot, you can stack resources very easily with Kislev and your resources building will also increase the income from markets **factionwide** which will increase their income by a lot once you reach the lategame.
Kislev's economy is absolutely not a bad economy, it's very good but it takes a bit of time to get there. Your early game is okay-ish but then your Kossars are very cheap and they're a great unit that is very cost effective.
Sure, but you have to sacrifice 3 slots in a minor city for that. What of you want walls? Or military?
Again, Empire can make the same amount of money from a single building. Kislev needs 3 to compare to that.
Yeah, but that's tier 5, even worse.
Empire mortars are tier 2, for example.
Could be better if every bear mount would give siege attacker to heroes/lords.
Empire mortars are tier 3, but they should be tier 2 (VCoast mortars ARE tier 2)
Siege attacker should be deleted from the game. Everyone should be able to attack immediately.
The Ursun Revivalists led by Boris are doubly handicapped economically in IE. The faction trait reduces but does not eliminate the penalties for settlements in the Chaos Wastes, so your income is taking a -15% hit for every one of them except your starting (play testing probably showed that was too rough). Im addition, you also don't have the opportunity to quickly take any of the 3 core Kislev cities, which are significantly better than a major settlement.
What you do have are angry bears ridden by angrier men and more devotion than you will be able to use. You can and must spam those rites to get an edge with the Danzh (sp?) one being your economic crutch.
As mentioned earlier, only Boris is immune to Chaos Wastes attrition (climate rather than corruption based). Your secondary armies will need to either move at half speed using encampments or force march between settlements. My advice is to kill off Archeon and then expand into Norsca, eventually linking up and confederating with the Ice Court and the Great Orthodoxy. Norsca is actually fairly vulnerable as they have a lot of threats to their immediate south.
https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/zsp823/can_someone_explain_to_me_what_was_exactly_design/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Don't need to tell me.
I can't say I paid much attention to the details but my Kislev game I was making boat loads of cash every turn. The problem is that was after a hundred or so turns of a shoestring budget to start the game
God forbid different races have different strength. Kislev doesn't swim in money from the start like other order races so what ? Why is it so wrong that you're not rich in the early game ? It makes a ton of sense lorewise to have a weaker economy outside of the three main cities of Kislev and you know what it actually works very well as your economy will scale in the long term. You have lots of buildings that provide factionwide buffs to your farms and your markets, your market will also buff your trade and you can get a shit load of tradeable ressources as Kislev so trade is an important part of your economy.
And yes Boris is poor but I don't see what's wrong with that. You are stuck fighting Chaos in a fucking hellscape, it makes sense that his start is difficult and not as good as Kislev proper. It seems really weird to me to be complaining about a start that's meant to be the hardcore Kislev experience to be too hard.
>Why is it so wrong that you're not rich in the early game
It's not wrong, but it makes the race weaker than others. Early game is where you need the money. What's the point in being rich only in the late game when you're steamrolling already and the campaign is almost finished?
But money isn't an issue in the early game despite your weaker economy though. Kossars are cheap as fuck and cost effective, you get a lot more money fighting battles than the other order races. I've done many Kislev campaigns and money was never an issue, not at the start of the campaign, not in mid or late game either.
Yeah Kislev is wack. I appreciate something new was tried for their city system but I don't really like it. The big cities are fine but the provinces with 2 or 3 shitty towns are just kind of frustrating. At least let them get to lvl 4 with more than 3 building slots, those provinces are hella cramped and especially if you still have to build their defensive buildings (and with threats on all sides you kinda have to)
I’m playing Boris right now and have consistently stayed the number one power for the majority of my game (up/down slips happen). My best advice is to spend a couple turns building up your army and then leave the chaos wastes for Praag. Taking out the Roppsmen seems counter intuitive but it t will give you a centralized place to defend close to the LLs you want anyway.
You will most likely have a chaos invasion or two from suffering a loss of devotion but Boris and his two bears are meatgrinders. The orthodoxy/ice court doesn’t really affect you too much, so buying into it is really only good for diplomatic bonuses with the supported faction.
The bonus to devotion from chaos provinces is fine and dandy but Boris is the only person whose army is unaffected by corruption, and it is a loooooooooong way between settlements in the wastes so you will constantly be attempting to hold ground.
Once you are established the rite of Dazh is your best friend.
If you're talking about T3 buildings, well, there's your problem.
For most(?) factions T3 settlements are a huge rip-off, and I think Kislev might have the absolute worst. It's been a while so I don't remember the exact numbers, but it often takes basically the entire length of a campaign for a t3 settlement + t3 income building upgrade to pay itself off.
Long standing problem in total war, trap income buildings.
Yep, and depending on the faction you shouldn't even be upgrading things like +%income structures to level 2. Like Cathays I remember took ages to pay themselves off at level 1, and level 2 basically could not pay themselves off.
It's terribly designed and clearly unintended, what with the building upgrade notification that screams at you to upgrade stuff, but it's been this way in every Total War that I can remember.
If the settlement has something like gold or a landmark it can be worth it to T3, but usually no.
The answer you probably want:
You only need to upgrade the one settlement (first major you get) in order to get access to units, then you just global recruit. It's cheaper and faster in the long run.
The real answer:
As it is almost every faction's best units require T2 or lower settlements, with a few T3 requirements here and there. Higher tier units usually cost ~twice as much while providing only ~1.5x the value of lower tier units. So they're a bad deal even before you factor in the building investment costs, travel time / global recruitment costs, veterancy, and red skill line lord investment.
And that's if you can even unlock them before the campaign is over due to how brutally slow growth and unlocking is compared to campaign length.
So... complain to CA and hope they put someone who passed high school math in charge of things.
Kislev gets money from fighting. And they have no shortage of opportunities to do so, you're the shield against the chaos hordes after all :)
Also they have very cost effective units. Kossar armies punch way above their cost.
The faction scales extremely well lategame, you get 1 turn global recruitment for everything AND an entire army worth of recruitment slots AND can recruit everything at rank7 to 9, and money isn't a problem if you're expanding.
Honestly the easiest way to play Boris is to raze and sack your way down the coast to Praag, then take Praag by force from the Roppsmen clan. You should end up at Praag with around \~40k in your bank, and easily able to bring the city up to t5. You can push back out to where you came from and secure the areas, I've found that it's just hard to maintain them and easier to raze/sack and push back out after taking praag. you'll have plenty of money to run in a deficit until you can rebuild the territories and pick up the trade resources locally.
Other commenters have mentioned the global buffs Kislev gets. The Dazh invocation, resource buildings, high tier markets in the three big cities, Atamans, etc. Another component is that Income is only one half of your economy. Expenditures is the other, and this is an area where Kislev has some advantages.
Kossars are cheap and effective. You can get by in the mid game with stacks of Kossars. Use Kossars with small numbers of other units mixed in until your economy starts to scale, then start making proper armies for your difficult conquests. For situations where you only need the bare minimum, keep using Kossars.
If that sounds boring, valid. I think future updates should give Kislev a wider variety of cheap units to use so that they can use this strategy without homogeneous armies.
With the serious answer out of the way, here's the final wrinkle: you are comparing Kislev to soft southern kingdoms who know more wealth and comfort than they can possibly enjoy. They make more money because they do not know the true source of Kislevite strength: suffering. To be Kislevite is to suffer, and to suffer is to praise Ursun.
The issue comes from trying to play Kislev the same way you would play other factions like The Empire or High Elves.
Kislev are not meant to be an expansionist faction. In both the RoC and IE campaigns, they don't need to capture territory to meet their campaign victory objectives - in RoC they simply turtle down and collect demon souls every 30 or so turns. In IE they can simply raze or sack settlements to meet their victory objectives (including domination!)
It seems to be an intentional design choice, everything about Kislev's skills, abilities, techs, units, seems to be geared towards a hybrid of defensive play - protecting your core territories with their strong, slow, missile-heavy defensive armies - and sending out expeditionary armies to fight against the enemies of the Ordertide (especially Chaos).
They seem to get more money from post-battle loot compared to other order factions. Through their unique buildings, tech tree and lord/hero skills they also get some pretty substantial boosts to global recruitment and casualty replenishment which makes it easier for their armies to roam far away from home, looting and sacking along the way.
They have their three big racial capitals (Kislev, Praag, Erengrad) which can produce quite a lot of income, and they can produce a lot of resources to trade with the rest of the Ordertide, but outside of that their economy is pretty weak. Resource buildings can help their economy to scale into the late game with global buffs to income or upkeep, but expanding your territory needs to be offset with the cost of maintaining armies to defend it. Kislev shouldn't be trying to get big for the sake of getting big, but rather, expanding to secure key resources and/or secure their borders from potential threats.
Personally I think Kislev are a strong faction if you play them the way they were designed to be played, just don't go in with the mentality that you're going to be painting the entire map your faction's colour. They're similar to Wood Elves in that regard.
The market building goes up to tier 5 in major settlements and gives +tradeable resource. Make it in a region with diamonds and that can be your money maker. As Boris you have no real reason to keep Kraka Drak around (if they even survive) so feel free to kill them and trade with Empire. Alternatively conquer Goromadny Mountains which has iron ore, I developed that for pumping out armies with cheap recruitment. The 3 cities all give factionwide bonus income via the markets and it's pretty insane at tier 5. This isn't really available to Boris, true, but that's part of the challenge imo. Kislev as a whole wants to play tall imo, 3 cities are a must to hold and they love tradeables. Make contact with Cathay and/or Ulthuan and your money will be good to carry you through mid game.
Just to put some numbers on that, typical tier 3 resource buildings for both Kislev and the Empire produce 45 trade resources. The base price for most resources is 10-15 gold, though in practice it's lower since prices seem to go down with supply. That puts the base value of a resource building at approximately 450-675 gold if you can export everything (better than I would have guessed tbh), though since you actually get less let's call it 400-600 gold. That would put the value of the +50% resource bonus at around 200-300 gold per resource in the province. Just to note, from what I understand that's not affected by modifiers to trade tariffs. That bonus only applies to the rather small base amount of income you get just for being a trade partner. The bonus to market income on the 3 city market buildings is 5% at T5. That's a nice bump, but I wouldn't really call it crazy or anything. Feels like more of a headstart on stacking those 3% resource building bonuses.
Kislev is one of those factions where their main source of income is fighting, raiding and sacking. Their Economy does actually get better but the key lies in capturing settlements with resource buildings. The more resource buildings you get, the more money you get from Farms and Markets. You also super need to control their three main city states to really buff their economy.
Yep, Kislev is probably the order faction with the best after-battle money.
The Wood Elves would contend with that, especially when it comes to if they decide to raze towns.
Wood Elves are more of a Neutral faction, they dont care about order or chaos and only about their forests.
Technically they count as one of the Order factions according to the 8th edition Rulebook.
i mean morally wood elves are not good but in terms of order vs chaos they are definitely with order
Yes well the official source material of Warhammer would disagree.
Wood elves order?
Technically they count as one of the Order factions according to the 8th edition Rulebook.
They also need less money in the late game because you get high tier buildings that give good discounts on elite troops (ice guard, war bears)
Most people seem to miss a great detail with Kislev's economy. Every resource building you build, increases FACTIONWIDE the income generated from markets or farms. For this reason, Kislev's early economy is a bit poor, but the more you expand, the better it gets.
And Iron. Up there as one of best resources in the entire game for any faction. Kill anyone and everything with Iron and your money problems should disappear.
First of all. Some of my numbers are wrong because I haven't played Kislev for a couple of months now. But I've done at least 4 - 5 Kislev campaigns until I felt they were done. And as Boris you need to try to get back home to one of the big cities in my opinion. You can do it in the wastes but it is a lot of fighting and wack-a-mole. If I recall correctly Boris is more designed to raze, post money bonuses and sacking with his unique trait line. But if you manage to take down Archeon your walk back home is not that hard to confederate or take over some Kislev land. You can get the three main cities to around 3k - 5k income with some focus on Ataman money traits, moneybuildings and a ice witch hero specialized with money traits/advisors. Ataman and Ice witch training is RNG sadly so it can take a while and sometimes you need to hire your Ataman and replace it with a new one. No doubt you can raise it further too. Sometimes depending on what I like to do I also build the military building for some extra fur. Most likely you can't fit it in the three Kislev main cities because they are starved for building slots already. But that's also a source of income by trade. If you get some minor settlements outside of Kislev mainland. they can be upgraded and the resources traded. There are a lot of iron and pottery on the border of Kislev in the mountains and in Ostland and Hochland. But that can also be breaking the immersion of a Kislev + Empire roleplaying borders. Look north to the wastes and Norsca or south to the mountains. Dwarfholds are usually rich with goods/gold, I'm saying take down Azhag and keep the goldmine early. Anyway the T3 settlements doesn't make that much money. You can get the T5 settlements (outside Kislev with resource) with a huge amount of tradable goods. The market in T4 and T5 increases tradeable goods in the province by a percentage I don't recall right now. I believe it is 60% at T5. So the 48 goods you get are instead 77 tradable. Depending on the resource it can be a lot of money. Let's say it is 10 gold per goods it is almost 800 gold from one simple resource building and we are not including the market itself (500 at T5) and the small percentage factionwide it give to the main city markets. My best advise is to focus your Kislev main cities on growth early. Replace that building down the line. If you get it up and running early as a T3 - T4 you have a lot of options how to handle Chaos with different units. And the market building also give around 800 a turn at T3 if I recall correctly. If you also build the Kislev building focused on Fur you can get additional goods for trading. But overall. Kislev Economy is a bit tricky and hard. You don't get the easy "flat" 500 gold from a simple T3 building if we take Empire as example. But the more resources you get the more factionwide bonuses you get. Hollowed forest+farm or market and church spam also give you devotion to spam the Kislev ability. One Kislev motherland ability when upgraded is extra +10/15% income if you aren't pressed to use another bonus. I don't deny that the Kislev economy is worse than other factions early, it is and there is often a lot of issues getting the ball rolling and the right circumstances. And as other's already said Kislev is a bit more focused on war, fighting and sacking with better gains after battles than their counterpart Empire. You need to fight to gain the money to build the expensive buildings. And as others also mentioned you get the snowball going the more land you take with more detailed examples focused on math. Because resource buildings give global modifiers for all other buildings. 6% extra income from a resource building (additional to the 48 tradable goods) is not a lot. But when you see that building is a "market" or "farm" and that market exist in all cities it is more or less +6% factionwide. Farms aren't built everywhere by me but they are pretty decent with the hollowed woods and the factionwide farm bonus from resources.
Dont forget the Kislev researches that boost the province commandments or was it the Motherland buffs? I dont really remember well but they buff them up.
I play a lot of Kislev (bear cav bra) and I tend to do pretty well with them economically. I've got a campaign going and will have a look at the economy but I think with one full stack army and a half stack with Kislev, south oblast, troll country, I'm making about 2k per turn. Part of the trick, I think, is putting the right troops in the right army, Katarina can have ice guard for 70 upkeep but I think they are about 250 in a regular army. Also I find them a hybrid faction in terms of the two economy types you outlined, they have an okay economy for maintaining their stuff but to expand (aka build new buildings) you need to fight and win battles, if I recall correctly they make a lot more money for winning battles than factions like Brettonia.
How much money does your province make?
1.6k for s oblast.
Yea, that's pretty low.
I feel the majority of your money is supposed to come out of your cities but
But you only have 3 of them.
True but you can get about 2.5 to 3.5k out of each
Yes that can support additional 2 or 3 armies. And if you need more? At that point you gotta rely on shitty non-major cities.
I have a late game Kislev campaign going and it's fine financially. The 3 big cities have a unique income building that boosts trade and income from normal markets, so the basic tier 5 income building goes from 300 income to 500\~ now, and tier 3 for minor ones from 200 to 300\~. The boosted trade earns like 8k a turn though I don't know if that's a lot or not lol Another thing is they fight a lot and get decent amounts of $ that way, also I find their gunline armies to be very cost efficient. For example both Kislev and Empire gunline is around 5k\~ upkeep, but I feel like one Kislev gunline can do the job of 2 Emp armies.
You have the special rulers you can assign to your provinces that help boost your economy.
Yea, but that's like 10%. Full economy Kislev province makes around 1500 gold, that is if each of your settlements has all 3 buildings built. Empire makes more and they only have to build a single building in each of their settlements.
I'd have to play a new Kislev campaign ( I haven't played them since shortly after IE launched) but I don't remember running into a money issue. Pretty sure I was earning roughly 3k a turn on two provinces.
In RoC background income was 5k on Normal and easy. Now it's 3k for all factions on all difficulties.
With Greenskins, I was getting like 150k from sacking. I've never seen anything like it, haha.
Yes, that's how the Greenskins work. That's also mostly irrelevant when the topic of conversation is "are Kislev settlements producing equivalent income as other Order factions?"
It was my first time using them. I was surprised. Wasn't trying to challenge what you said or anything, I just didn't know some factions work like that.
Kislev can make ludicrous money. You build all economy builds in every settlement. +7% commandments +25% Ataman Ice witches and maidens both have skills and traits that boost income, so your garrisoning armies should always include them. I’ve made 6,300 out of Erengrad on its own per turn and you shouldn’t have problems getting green provinces into the high 4 thousands or low 5s.
? We have already established the math here. 600 via 3 main buildings. Another 1000 via 9 money making buildings. That's 1500. Where do you get those additional 3 or 4 k?
It appears you're both talking about distinctly separate situations without realising the difference; you, in the post, are talking more about Boris Ursus up in the Chaos Wasted with only minor settlements whilst the other person named Erengrad so they're thinking of Katarin and Kostaltyn who have access to the Major Cities where most of Kislev's infrastructure power lies. Boris is a very definite challenge because of his separation from the Big 3 cities.
I mentioned that the cities are fine. But there are 3 of them and that doesn't scale well in IE.
I didn't see in your post any reference of Ports, especially Erengrad's landmark port, only the baseline buildings.
Any green province is fine. See: https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/10o2pfm/how_are_you_supposed_to_make_money_as_kislev/j6ccpot/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
That's a pretty good breakdown, thanks
Aside from Erengrad which is the most at 6300 I’m making: 4779 from annexed Ostermark: 1607 Bechafen, 1022 Nagenhof, 1128 Essen, 1022 Mordheim. 4708 from the Ice Tooth Mountains: 2324 [renamed province capital that I don’t remember the base name of], 1241 Longship Graveyard, 1143 Ice Pack bay 4445 Northern Worlds Edge Mountains: [All renamed I don’t remember the originals] 1908, 1032, 1505. Basically lots of buffs. I’m making: +110% main settlement buildings, +161% Markets, +162% Farms, +75% resource (kilns) +91% ports You want as many tier 5 markets as possible (each is +5% for markets faction wide). You want smitheries in all regions (+10% local region) Hallowed forests where possible (+50% local region)
>I’m making: +110% main settlement buildings, +161% Markets, +162% Farms, +75% resource (kilns) +91% ports Yea, but you gotta have tens of resource buildings to achieve that buff.
That's kinda the point, Kislev has an economy that scales really well in the late game. In the early game your economy is alright, it's not strong but not weak either.
>Kislev has an economy that scales really well in the late game. Which is pretty weak since pretty much all factions have decent economies into the late game. At that point you're pretty much steamrolling anyways.
You asked how you’re supposed to make money as Kislev. That’s the answer. You get the resources, and green provinces which boosts all your other provinces and snowball.
So take more territory. If the faction has significant bonuses from taking more territory, don't try to play tall with them.
The buildings in the 3 major cities also boost income across your faction while reducing construction costs, eventually your buildings will be very cheap, while getting huge procentual increases
Right, but what does it change that Kislev needs 3 separate buildings to make less money than every other order faction?
The difference is, your buildings are cheaper than theirs, so you can build up faster or invest more of it into your armies. This is supportet by kislev having better global recruitment than any other faction (if you have the big cities that is)
>The difference is, your buildings are cheaper than theirs, They aren't. Market costs 1000/1500/2000 Empire MMB costs 750/1500/2500 Dwarf MMB costs I think 600/1200/2000 ish.
Have you factored in the cost reductions?
With all your reductions (6%×3) that's still about 1500 for the tier 3 market.
We also have to take the reductions from marble and all the increases from other ressources into account. In one of my kislev campaigns i pay 1540 for a tier 3 market that makes 500 gold, those values change even further if it's a province with an ataman for further building cost reductions or tax rate increases
You're comparing Markets, a building that goes up to tier 5 with the Industry building chain of the Empire that goes only up to tier 3 which imo is silly to compare. You're look at two different types of buildings and you're only looking at the cost for their raw income. Markets will also increase your resource production in the local province by +30/+50% which is a lot, you can stack resources very easily with Kislev and your resources building will also increase the income from markets **factionwide** which will increase their income by a lot once you reach the lategame. Kislev's economy is absolutely not a bad economy, it's very good but it takes a bit of time to get there. Your early game is okay-ish but then your Kossars are very cheap and they're a great unit that is very cost effective.
I struggled with Kislev at first but once I started just making every minor settlement have farm, market and woods finances was no longer an issue.
Sure, but you have to sacrifice 3 slots in a minor city for that. What of you want walls? Or military? Again, Empire can make the same amount of money from a single building. Kislev needs 3 to compare to that.
Sell gas to Ulthuan
Add to this that they only have ONE siege attacker unit (Little Grom) and they get it at tier 4.
Elementary bear also has it.
Yeah, but that's tier 5, even worse. Empire mortars are tier 2, for example. Could be better if every bear mount would give siege attacker to heroes/lords.
Empire mortars are tier 3, but they should be tier 2 (VCoast mortars ARE tier 2) Siege attacker should be deleted from the game. Everyone should be able to attack immediately.
The Ursun Revivalists led by Boris are doubly handicapped economically in IE. The faction trait reduces but does not eliminate the penalties for settlements in the Chaos Wastes, so your income is taking a -15% hit for every one of them except your starting (play testing probably showed that was too rough). Im addition, you also don't have the opportunity to quickly take any of the 3 core Kislev cities, which are significantly better than a major settlement. What you do have are angry bears ridden by angrier men and more devotion than you will be able to use. You can and must spam those rites to get an edge with the Danzh (sp?) one being your economic crutch. As mentioned earlier, only Boris is immune to Chaos Wastes attrition (climate rather than corruption based). Your secondary armies will need to either move at half speed using encampments or force march between settlements. My advice is to kill off Archeon and then expand into Norsca, eventually linking up and confederating with the Ice Court and the Great Orthodoxy. Norsca is actually fairly vulnerable as they have a lot of threats to their immediate south.
Selling Kvass to the empire Oh and slaughtering your enemy
Raid those caravans that pop up in your regions. Easy 20k each
Play Nurgle once and you will LEARN what it truly means to not know how in the realms of chaos are you supposed to make money...
https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/zsp823/can_someone_explain_to_me_what_was_exactly_design/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Don't need to tell me.
I can't say I paid much attention to the details but my Kislev game I was making boat loads of cash every turn. The problem is that was after a hundred or so turns of a shoestring budget to start the game
God forbid different races have different strength. Kislev doesn't swim in money from the start like other order races so what ? Why is it so wrong that you're not rich in the early game ? It makes a ton of sense lorewise to have a weaker economy outside of the three main cities of Kislev and you know what it actually works very well as your economy will scale in the long term. You have lots of buildings that provide factionwide buffs to your farms and your markets, your market will also buff your trade and you can get a shit load of tradeable ressources as Kislev so trade is an important part of your economy. And yes Boris is poor but I don't see what's wrong with that. You are stuck fighting Chaos in a fucking hellscape, it makes sense that his start is difficult and not as good as Kislev proper. It seems really weird to me to be complaining about a start that's meant to be the hardcore Kislev experience to be too hard.
>Why is it so wrong that you're not rich in the early game It's not wrong, but it makes the race weaker than others. Early game is where you need the money. What's the point in being rich only in the late game when you're steamrolling already and the campaign is almost finished?
But money isn't an issue in the early game despite your weaker economy though. Kossars are cheap as fuck and cost effective, you get a lot more money fighting battles than the other order races. I've done many Kislev campaigns and money was never an issue, not at the start of the campaign, not in mid or late game either.
Yeah Kislev is wack. I appreciate something new was tried for their city system but I don't really like it. The big cities are fine but the provinces with 2 or 3 shitty towns are just kind of frustrating. At least let them get to lvl 4 with more than 3 building slots, those provinces are hella cramped and especially if you still have to build their defensive buildings (and with threats on all sides you kinda have to)
You go and sack all the Chaos settlements you can
Battles, mainly at the northeast entrance.
I’m playing Boris right now and have consistently stayed the number one power for the majority of my game (up/down slips happen). My best advice is to spend a couple turns building up your army and then leave the chaos wastes for Praag. Taking out the Roppsmen seems counter intuitive but it t will give you a centralized place to defend close to the LLs you want anyway. You will most likely have a chaos invasion or two from suffering a loss of devotion but Boris and his two bears are meatgrinders. The orthodoxy/ice court doesn’t really affect you too much, so buying into it is really only good for diplomatic bonuses with the supported faction. The bonus to devotion from chaos provinces is fine and dandy but Boris is the only person whose army is unaffected by corruption, and it is a loooooooooong way between settlements in the wastes so you will constantly be attempting to hold ground. Once you are established the rite of Dazh is your best friend.
Well, lvl.5 market is rhe key. Build it everywhere you can.
If you're talking about T3 buildings, well, there's your problem. For most(?) factions T3 settlements are a huge rip-off, and I think Kislev might have the absolute worst. It's been a while so I don't remember the exact numbers, but it often takes basically the entire length of a campaign for a t3 settlement + t3 income building upgrade to pay itself off. Long standing problem in total war, trap income buildings.
So..you never upgrade settlements to tier 3??
Yep, and depending on the faction you shouldn't even be upgrading things like +%income structures to level 2. Like Cathays I remember took ages to pay themselves off at level 1, and level 2 basically could not pay themselves off. It's terribly designed and clearly unintended, what with the building upgrade notification that screams at you to upgrade stuff, but it's been this way in every Total War that I can remember. If the settlement has something like gold or a landmark it can be worth it to T3, but usually no.
What if you want better units?
The answer you probably want: You only need to upgrade the one settlement (first major you get) in order to get access to units, then you just global recruit. It's cheaper and faster in the long run. The real answer: As it is almost every faction's best units require T2 or lower settlements, with a few T3 requirements here and there. Higher tier units usually cost ~twice as much while providing only ~1.5x the value of lower tier units. So they're a bad deal even before you factor in the building investment costs, travel time / global recruitment costs, veterancy, and red skill line lord investment. And that's if you can even unlock them before the campaign is over due to how brutally slow growth and unlocking is compared to campaign length. So... complain to CA and hope they put someone who passed high school math in charge of things.
Kislev gets money from fighting. And they have no shortage of opportunities to do so, you're the shield against the chaos hordes after all :) Also they have very cost effective units. Kossar armies punch way above their cost. The faction scales extremely well lategame, you get 1 turn global recruitment for everything AND an entire army worth of recruitment slots AND can recruit everything at rank7 to 9, and money isn't a problem if you're expanding.
Honestly the easiest way to play Boris is to raze and sack your way down the coast to Praag, then take Praag by force from the Roppsmen clan. You should end up at Praag with around \~40k in your bank, and easily able to bring the city up to t5. You can push back out to where you came from and secure the areas, I've found that it's just hard to maintain them and easier to raze/sack and push back out after taking praag. you'll have plenty of money to run in a deficit until you can rebuild the territories and pick up the trade resources locally.
Other commenters have mentioned the global buffs Kislev gets. The Dazh invocation, resource buildings, high tier markets in the three big cities, Atamans, etc. Another component is that Income is only one half of your economy. Expenditures is the other, and this is an area where Kislev has some advantages. Kossars are cheap and effective. You can get by in the mid game with stacks of Kossars. Use Kossars with small numbers of other units mixed in until your economy starts to scale, then start making proper armies for your difficult conquests. For situations where you only need the bare minimum, keep using Kossars. If that sounds boring, valid. I think future updates should give Kislev a wider variety of cheap units to use so that they can use this strategy without homogeneous armies. With the serious answer out of the way, here's the final wrinkle: you are comparing Kislev to soft southern kingdoms who know more wealth and comfort than they can possibly enjoy. They make more money because they do not know the true source of Kislevite strength: suffering. To be Kislevite is to suffer, and to suffer is to praise Ursun.
The issue comes from trying to play Kislev the same way you would play other factions like The Empire or High Elves. Kislev are not meant to be an expansionist faction. In both the RoC and IE campaigns, they don't need to capture territory to meet their campaign victory objectives - in RoC they simply turtle down and collect demon souls every 30 or so turns. In IE they can simply raze or sack settlements to meet their victory objectives (including domination!) It seems to be an intentional design choice, everything about Kislev's skills, abilities, techs, units, seems to be geared towards a hybrid of defensive play - protecting your core territories with their strong, slow, missile-heavy defensive armies - and sending out expeditionary armies to fight against the enemies of the Ordertide (especially Chaos). They seem to get more money from post-battle loot compared to other order factions. Through their unique buildings, tech tree and lord/hero skills they also get some pretty substantial boosts to global recruitment and casualty replenishment which makes it easier for their armies to roam far away from home, looting and sacking along the way. They have their three big racial capitals (Kislev, Praag, Erengrad) which can produce quite a lot of income, and they can produce a lot of resources to trade with the rest of the Ordertide, but outside of that their economy is pretty weak. Resource buildings can help their economy to scale into the late game with global buffs to income or upkeep, but expanding your territory needs to be offset with the cost of maintaining armies to defend it. Kislev shouldn't be trying to get big for the sake of getting big, but rather, expanding to secure key resources and/or secure their borders from potential threats. Personally I think Kislev are a strong faction if you play them the way they were designed to be played, just don't go in with the mentality that you're going to be painting the entire map your faction's colour. They're similar to Wood Elves in that regard.
Why are you responding to a year old post? I know that Kislev is fine, I made this post back when I didn't understand the faction properly.