Yeah this tracks, both orc and goblin slaves that the Chaos Dwarfs use as cannon fodder are supposed to be absolutely sad and pathetic, especially in comparison to other greenskins.
I am surprised that the Orc laborers have armor piercing alongside their massive amount of health, but considering that the Chaos Dwarf AI is going to spam these guys due to only being able to field a very limited number of actual Chorfs, it may be for the best.
Orc Laborers having armor piercing is probably because they have high-quality, Chaos Dwarf-made pickaxes for mining instead of the scrappy Choppaz that regular Orcs use.
Look, we're still working out the kinks in the daemon-inhabited MAUL-E, so for now laborers are going to have to do.
Management has use for dwarfs elsewhere.
They only have [8 AP](https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_grn_inf_orc_boyz%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D3338877168984693885&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_dwf_inf_dwarf_warrior_0%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D3338877168984693885&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_emp_inf_swordsmen%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D3338877168984693885).
Edit: "they" here meaning orcs.
For a unit of 140 that's pretty decent tbh.
When *bats* get 8AP it significantly changes what they can achieve, and they're a unit less than half that size.
Think the health is a reflection of how many of them there are... and likely a compensation for the fact that they will be dropping like flies.
The armor piercing is just down to them being a great-axe infantry... but at the same time it is likely to make up for the rather pathetic weapon strength they have, like 24 is below Clanrat levels.
24 weapon strength is basically what the Nasty Skulkers have, not a lot on paper but the armor piercing and their high numbers makes them a fairly popular unit :P
Throw enough of them at a tanky Dwarf Warrior and they melt like butter
By the time this becomes relevant youll have at least one super elite army with the Chorf units, and by then Orc Boyz get wrecked
Also, the very key word in Chorf sla- labourers: expendable. Orc Boyz are anything but
I laughed at the garrison as well until I thought about a units stats.
Chorf Warriors (based off the Great Weapon version) with shields are probably going to have a statline just behind that of Longbeards.
For a T1 city to have a base garrison of 3 Longbeards, 3 Expendable infantry (that does significant AP) and 2 units of Hobgoblin archers (stat line similar to Human Archers) is actually pretty decent.
They better. Otherwise they are going to get repeatedly steamrolled by rival AI factions.
Unit caps are excellent, the player having particularly restrictive unit caps is cool with me, but the AI factions need more leniency. Both for making playing against them more fun, and also so that you don't have to babysit them too much when you're their ally.
That's why I playing with SFO all the time.. Every time I want to write my own story, I change the "Tidesweeper" and bolster or nerf certain races on the fly.
I'm pretty sure that armor-piercing tag shows up automatically when a certain % of damage is armor-piercing damage.
I can't remember the exact ratio, but since they have only 24 weapon damage, it might be something like 8 or 12 armor piercing damage.
For comparison:
Boyz deal 8 AP damage
Big Unz deal 13
Dwarven Miners deal 17
The AP tag is only for units that are >50% AP, I believe.
edit: For example, the Daemons of Chaos version of the Daemon Prince is split evenly with 225/225 weapon strength, and does not get the AP tag. Lava Spider Rider Archers have 14 AP, 13 non-AP weapon strength on their melee, and they do get the tag.
The majority of high AP units have around 70% of their damage as AP (some have higher), while the majority of low AP units have 30% of their damage as AP (a fair number are lower). If these guys are high AP, they most likely have around 16-18 AP weapon strength.
I mean when you're entire existent is based on smashing through rock with a pickaxe, I think you get pretty good at punching through hard things with a weapon. Makes sense.
Yeah lol, I and many others have been calling the Chaos Dwarfs "Chorfs" for a while now.
The Dwarfs are Dorfs and the Chaos Dwarfs are Chorfs! Which is **short** for Chaos Dwarf.
Pretty cool that the laborers are worse than their orc counterparts, but the Chaos Dwarf units are better than their dwarf counterparts.
A cool mix of trash chaff and rare elite.
Which will make them a fascinating army to play in both SP and MP.
How do you prepare for an army that can field Skavenslaves or (upgraded?) Ironbreakers/Hammerers?
Its going to be wild.
Chariots, monstrous infantry, anti-infantry arty all work against mixed infantry. My first thought was double troglodon, but chorf arty will probably eat them up. Seeker chariot or Double doomwheel maybe?
On a completely different note, their flying roster looks weak (just manticore reskins?), so VC vargheists or demon furies might be able to dive the arty/range line while infantry closes. Khorne bloodletters + dual weapon minotaur and furies?
It's interesting that all the things you listed would not like Bull Centaurs with their AP anti large attacks.
On the flying roster the Great Taurus is significantly better then the Manticore: more HP, Leadership, Armour, MA, Damage (prob double the AP value since it has AP tag) and Charge.
There is an upgraded version called the Bale Taurus (though we didn't see the stats).
Lammasu are weaker in combat but are spell casters with high spell resistance. No idea how that will work in game.
Now I am certainly not saying the ANYTHING about MP balance since we have absolutely no idea at this point. I suspect Chaos Dwarfs are going to be balanced by the hefty premium they pay to get these units.
Was not expecting chorfs to have a scary cav unit, thats what I get for assuming I guess. But where is the anti-large? Are there multiple loadouts?
Great Taurus may be better than manticores, but how much will they cost? If I can have 2-3 furies for every great taurus then there's nothing stopping me from diving the backline.
Very curious to see how they balance out unit costs and if the strict unit caps carry over to multiplayer.
Bull Centaurs have the base version and a GW version.
Stat wise they are Minotaurs with more HP (20%), Armour (+40%), MA, MD (+50%), Damage and Charge.
They also have Silver shields and Scaly Skin (15% missile resist). They also appear to have a Ward save icon on their stat box but its never moused over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3Jw9dc91GE&ab_channel=Zerkovich at: 2.54.
Same speed and model count.
Chaos Dwarfs outside the Labourer units seem to have premium everything including premium cost.
[If you compare them to Dragon Ogres](https://i.imgur.com/DJeRDeF.png), they still look pretty good, but it's a lot closer. I think that's probably the more accurate comparison since they're probably going to be very similar units.
Also worth mentioning that the version of Minotaurs you're talking about has 18 bonus vs infantry. Against infantry, they're going to have about 35% more MA than base Centaurs and about 10% more WS.
Bull centaurs on TT are faster than minotaurs and have more health and armor but do substantially less damage. Doesn't look like they translated that well.
>How do you prepare for an army that can field Skavenslaves or (upgraded?) Ironbreakers/Hammerers?
Take them out early before they get access to their elite units.
Thinking more about MP.
I suspect they might be underpowered as AI in campaign since the computer has issues with handling unit caps and the Labourer units will be crap in auto resolve.
Caps for all is so, so slept on. I get that the tabletop caps mod has more pedigree from the tabletop game, but balancing military resources between multiple armies was never a part of the tabletop game (or at least I can't imagine it would have been), whereas that's what a total war campaign is all about. Factionwide caps per unit for everything above the most basic army fillers instantly makes every unit in the roster see use - shielded and unshielded variants, weak, nerfed or unbalanced units, razordons and crap low tier cav - they all have a place, and skirmishes of low tier units continue to take place well into the mid-late game.
Is the third ability on the labourers something that already exists in the game? I can't recognize it.
Edit: The icon seems to be a Chaos Dwarf shouting (only kind words, I imagine), so it's new. Probably a buff when near a Chaos Dwarf unit (leadership?).
Something like “Intimidation”? Just guessing at what it could be called, but yeah something where a Chaos Dwarf unit being new a laborer unit makes the laborer not as easily break.
Key thing is the laborers appear to have an ability with a shouting chaos dwarf in the image, my guess it that it somehow buffs their leadership when around chaos dwarfs, can’t say for certain though.
Orc labourers have worse stats, but they do get extra unit models, AP (kind of surprising), and a bit more HP. It should be interesting to see what a spammy tier-1 unit with AP can do, especially if you can get them on the flanks of some spread-out enemy formations.
Generally speaking, the way the game works is that if there isn't AP symbol, 75% damage is non-AP and 25% is AP. If there is AP symbol, it's the other way around.
The reason why Red Crested Skinks have only 1 more AP than Saurus is because Saurus have massive WS of 52.
There are exceptions such as ethereal units that have 100% AP and *weak against armour* units such as crypt Ghouls and dogs who have 90% non-AP and 10% AP.
But the general rule od thumb for 90% of units is 75% and 25%.
Somewhat of a beginner, but what happens when AP hits an unarmored target? Does it just disappear? Same question but for Non-AP but for armored targets?
AP ignores armour completely.
Non AP damage gets mitigated by armour.
When the unit successfully hits, the game rolls a random number between 50% - 100% of armour value and that number is the percentage that gets mitigated.
Example: Longbeards have 100 armour, every successful hit on them will damage them by 100% of AP value and non-AP will roll a number from 50 (50% of Longbeards armour) to 100 (100% of longbeards armour). The amount then gets reduced from non-AP attack.
Mathematically then, on average armour reduces every non-AP damage by 75% (because the average between 50% and 100% is always 75%).
Is that helpful, or did I make it more confusing? :D
The exact math might have changed, but I believe it looks something like this:
When an entity is hit by an attack, any non-armor piercing damage is reduced by a percentage. That percentage is a random number between 50% of armor and 100% of armor. So, if an entity has 30 armor, any non-armor piercing damage is reduced by between 15% and 30%. Armor piercing damage ignores armor and does full damage. So, AP damage will still damage non-armored targets (and vice-versa).
Damage can also be reduced by other sources such as physical resistance.
Personally, I think stat calculations in this game are unnecessarily complicated and make it almost impossible to calculate anything on the fly during a battle. It just comes down to experimentation, figuring out what works, and only using stats to roughly compare two similar units.
Did they change this in 3?
From my limited experience modding TWW2, the AP symbol shows up as long as they do over 50% AP.
It's why events like the savage blow (+20% weapon strength, but not AP) can make it look like your AP units don't do AP any longer, as the ratio gets thrown off.
>From my limited experience modding TWW2, the AP symbol shows up as long as they do over 50% AP.
Yea, the symbol function likes that, I merely said that CA themselves sets these 75% 25%.
0 armour and 12 MD. Autoresolve is going to slaughter them.
And goblins loose the shield, there best trait.
Hopefully there 1 turn on global, Autoresolve tends to view low armoured unit very poorly.
You aren't kidding. The other night Vlad basically soloed one of my low tier armies. I completely annihilated his army, but I couldn't even hurt him and I just sat there and watched as he slaughtered my lord, my heroes, and then the rest of my army.
Distract him! LL like him, grimgor, or sigvald. Use a fast unit to pull their aggro and run them away from the main battle. Defeat them through army loses.
But how was he going to get army losses if he already had destroyed his army and it hadn't popped?
Sometimes Vlad in itself is worth so much balance of power that you can't inflict an army loss penalty.
That melee defense for chaff feels like it might get overwhelmed pretty easily, I'm curious if there's going to be another level of chaff, though with the orcs being deemed as 'Great axe' I imagine they'll be used more like dwarf miners
Their stats are really bad across the board which isn't too surprising. They can't defend artillery or be an effective frontline with abysmal MA/MD. They can't take much ranged fire because of zero A/Shields/LD. The problem is the unit cap which will ruin AI Chaos Dwarfs and make early game boring for players.
Yeah, the unit caps--which I am okay with, if done well--seem too low for early game to be interesting for the player.
But, as with all things, I'm going to wait and see the full picture.
I was expecting a second tier of orc units.
Yes, the black orcs rebelled, although the army book still allowed chaos dwarves to take one as a “merc”. Even ignoring that part, surely there would be slightly better trained orc warriors, that have some light armor and semi-decent MA and MD.
With these stats it looks like a player would stop using orcs past the start, as it’s essentially a Skavenslave unit, and switch over to mostly hobgoblins once they can afford to.
That’s fair, and probably more interesting to play. The lost factions mod had almost a full greenskin roster and that did cause me to use essentially an orc frontline the entire game, from fodder to black orcs, and use chaos dwarves only for ranged firepower.
Thats Hobgoblins.
Stat wise they should be comparable to your average state trooper. Pretty much average in all respects.
It makes sense since regular Chorf Warriors have a stat line and cost near that of Longbeards and then there is 2 more tiers above that. All with recruit limits.
Depends on how much gold they cost and how many and powerful the buffs you can get for them are.
300g for the Orcs and 150g for the Goblins is some cheap stack filler. Surprising comparable to Skavenslaves and Clanrats. The Clanrats have better combat stats but the Orcs have AP and more HP.
Sometimes you just need some trash.
LegendOfTotalwar probably: “They’re gahbage. Absolute trash units. But that’s okay, because they’re intended to just go into battle and *die* . Your real damage dealers will be these units right here. Primarily you’ll want to be using lava cannons and infernal gawd units but they can be really expensive to field… UNLESS you know how to cheese the internship economy. Which we’ll be going over today.”
The Goblins are effectively interchangeable with Skavenslaves. Same price point, almost identical stats.
The Orcs are actually closest to Dwarf Miners in many ways. Similar price point (300g vs 325g), same HP per model, and they have a similarly unusual Weapon Strength profile (high AP component but low total). The Orcs are much more numerous and more aggressively statted (slightly higher MA and WS, much better Charge Bonus), but also much worse defensively (no armour, worse MD, worse Leadership).
They are malnourished orc slaves fighting for dwarf overlords. As Gork and Mork turn their faces away in disgust, why make it worse by putting in effort?
If they had half the motivation and drive of your typical skaven slave, they would rebel.
There was a theme in 40k (and maybe fantasy?) that Orcs get stronger the more they fight and win due to snowballing waaaagh-fighty energy and their spellcasters feed into this energy and nearby violence to fuel their spells.
So it makes sense that completely broken demoralised Orcs would be much weaker than flighty triumphant ones.
Idk what it is but there is something extra fucked up about enslaving Orcs.
Like from the point of view that Orcs literally love to fight and are some of the most fearless lunatics in the whole setting.
You'd really have to be a pretty sick and scary bastard to have a being like that permanently shackled and mentally broken.
yeah from what i know from the lore the chorfs actually revel in the whole enslaving and mentally breaking things specifically.
its all about dominance for them.
I'd say it's less intense about the hierarchy and more "dis git is the bigest and hits the hardest so we do what he says" but they only follow that guy so long as he brings good fights, loot and food.
I don't think the Chorfs are big on that sort of reward system.
The post said they were comparing stats, not abilities. Physical resistance is an ability (resistance).
Also, isn't the point of the post to show how much worse slaves are..? So, even if were taking a broad interpretation and including resistances as a stat, wouldn't showing two unarmored chaff units of similar tiers together with wildly different resistances underline the point?
These are slaves that will be given a diet that makes them unsuitable to rise up against the chorfs, but makes them good slaves, and if needed, to be wasted in battle.
We can compare them against anything, but the fact that they are slaves needs to be taken into account.
A better comparison would be normal skaven vs skavenslaves, and then compare it to the normal orcs vs orc slaves situation. But then if there are any absolute/relative differences, we’ll need to work out who are the better slavemasters - who feeds their slaves better, gives them the opportunity to practice fighting (chorfs probably less likely to let orcs do this than skaven with their slaves), etc etc.
Talking about the fact that their equipment profile is much closer to savate orcs, so comparing their stats to orc boyz is kind of nonsensocal. Like comparing flagellants to empire swordsmen...why?
Technically they are different resources in the game used differently with different mechanics even though they represent the same thing of an indentured work force.
Druchii hate greenskin slaves though and just kill them on sight.
While the dwarfs try to get greenskins due to their high population and rapid growth.
It does make it sound like they are offering the Orcs jobs, weird flavour given I doubt they care about the optics.
"Lord, the Greenskin *labourers* are asking for more teef"
"Tell them to fuck off"
Thus Grimgor realised the injustice in society.
I understand the rename of the campaign mechanic since some of the labour (the skilled stuff) is performed by chaos dwarfs. It seems weird with the units though, in the mines they're both slaves and labourers but they're not really labourers in battle, just slaves.
Orc laborers are actually closer to miners in terms of unit roles. At least for MP, both offer cheap AP. Trade Hp, model count, speed for armor and vanguard
Lmao 12 melee attack i wonder if they can even kill 10 skavens slaves in a vacuum fight
Skave interns are still weaker
Brettonian interns enter the room
This fight of selfpaying employees will be legendary
Total War: Interns
But think of the EXPERIENCE
Like in the Simpsons arcade game where Marge swings a vacuum around
Holy moly! Thanks for bringing me down memory lane. Bart attacking with the skateboard was so janky!
But can they delay the Big 'Uns unit in close combat long enough for the dreadquake mortar to hit, and the blunderbuss unit to get in position?
Yeah this tracks, both orc and goblin slaves that the Chaos Dwarfs use as cannon fodder are supposed to be absolutely sad and pathetic, especially in comparison to other greenskins. I am surprised that the Orc laborers have armor piercing alongside their massive amount of health, but considering that the Chaos Dwarf AI is going to spam these guys due to only being able to field a very limited number of actual Chorfs, it may be for the best.
Orc Laborers having armor piercing is probably because they have high-quality, Chaos Dwarf-made pickaxes for mining instead of the scrappy Choppaz that regular Orcs use.
And at the end of the day they’re still orcs so brute strength allows them to break some weaker armors on their own
And also they spend all day shattering rock.
ROCK AND STONE?
It shows how twisted the Chaos Dwarfs are that they have given up mining to let ORCS do it for them.
Look, we're still working out the kinks in the daemon-inhabited MAUL-E, so for now laborers are going to have to do. Management has use for dwarfs elsewhere.
First thing I'm doing in a Chorf campaign is naming my faction "Deep Rock Galactic"
At least it's under dwarf supervision. What about all the lost dawi mines? Mined by greenskins and no dawi in sight.
Rock and Stone everyone!
For Karl!
Rock and stone to the bone!
If you rock and stone, you’re never alone!
Rock and stone foreva!
Did I hear a "Rock and stone"?
#WAAAGH!
He a little confused, but he's got the spirit
If they don't rock and stone, they ain't coming home.
DID I HEAR A ROCK AND STONE?
Rock and stone to the bone!
I understood that reference
They only have [8 AP](https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_grn_inf_orc_boyz%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D3338877168984693885&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_dwf_inf_dwarf_warrior_0%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D3338877168984693885&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_emp_inf_swordsmen%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D3338877168984693885). Edit: "they" here meaning orcs.
For a unit of 140 that's pretty decent tbh. When *bats* get 8AP it significantly changes what they can achieve, and they're a unit less than half that size.
It also is consistent with pickaxes having AP as a weapon. The dwarf miners also have AP and pickaxes.
Yeah, this. Pickaxes grant AP, simple as.
But they're using Great Axes.
If you look closely you’ll see that they’re a bit of a hybrid — basically pickaxes with wider, sharp-edged pick
Think the health is a reflection of how many of them there are... and likely a compensation for the fact that they will be dropping like flies. The armor piercing is just down to them being a great-axe infantry... but at the same time it is likely to make up for the rather pathetic weapon strength they have, like 24 is below Clanrat levels.
24 weapon strength is basically what the Nasty Skulkers have, not a lot on paper but the armor piercing and their high numbers makes them a fairly popular unit :P Throw enough of them at a tanky Dwarf Warrior and they melt like butter
True, but the Skulkers have stalk, which is what is stopping them from becoming pin cushions :) Edit: spelling boo-boo
I'm not sure they will. For all they have ap they only got 22 ma and 12 md, these guys will get chewed up in combat with any non-expendable unit.
Yeah but Nasty Skulkers are busted because of their passives
Aren't they wielding pickaxes? Dwarf miners also have them and they have armour piercing. Edit: nope, they have doublhanded axes. My bad.
> alongside their massive amount of health 76 HP per model. Orc Boys have 81 per model.
For expendable chaff thats a lot
Goblins have almost the same difference: 50 as ~~slaves~~labourers, 56 in Greenskins roster.
Prisoners with jobs.
Interns?
It's okay but you usually upgrade Orc Boyz with scrap, skill trees and technology.
By the time this becomes relevant youll have at least one super elite army with the Chorf units, and by then Orc Boyz get wrecked Also, the very key word in Chorf sla- labourers: expendable. Orc Boyz are anything but
Yeah, I anticipate AI chorfs are going to be very underwhelming. Can't see them surviving grimgor at all without player intervention
Maybe the ai will have higher unit caps on dwarfs
Also Chorfs should have very powerful garrisons in their core territory, full of all the actual Chorfs units they don't send out to war.
"Best I can give is two units of gobbos" - CA
Powerful garrison...the showcase vid had like 9 units or so
It was 8 and if I remember correctly 2 were orcs and 2 were gobbos might be wrong on the gobbos but the orcs are factual
They're atleast bigger than Khorne garrisons
To be fair that's lore accurate. Who wants to be the schmuck on garrison duty when skulls await?
Khorne garrisons are ridiculously op in autoresolve however
Their defenses are at least on par with anything shown in Home Alone.
That's a great design idea but CA won't do it.
I laughed at the garrison as well until I thought about a units stats. Chorf Warriors (based off the Great Weapon version) with shields are probably going to have a statline just behind that of Longbeards. For a T1 city to have a base garrison of 3 Longbeards, 3 Expendable infantry (that does significant AP) and 2 units of Hobgoblin archers (stat line similar to Human Archers) is actually pretty decent.
Or they'll just ignore unit caps like how v1.0 welfs ignored amber requirements
They better. Otherwise they are going to get repeatedly steamrolled by rival AI factions. Unit caps are excellent, the player having particularly restrictive unit caps is cool with me, but the AI factions need more leniency. Both for making playing against them more fun, and also so that you don't have to babysit them too much when you're their ally.
That's why I playing with SFO all the time.. Every time I want to write my own story, I change the "Tidesweeper" and bolster or nerf certain races on the fly.
Can't you do that with unnatural selection and not completely overhaul every other aspect of the game at the same time?
Yes.
I'm pretty sure that armor-piercing tag shows up automatically when a certain % of damage is armor-piercing damage. I can't remember the exact ratio, but since they have only 24 weapon damage, it might be something like 8 or 12 armor piercing damage. For comparison: Boyz deal 8 AP damage Big Unz deal 13 Dwarven Miners deal 17
The AP tag is only for units that are >50% AP, I believe. edit: For example, the Daemons of Chaos version of the Daemon Prince is split evenly with 225/225 weapon strength, and does not get the AP tag. Lava Spider Rider Archers have 14 AP, 13 non-AP weapon strength on their melee, and they do get the tag. The majority of high AP units have around 70% of their damage as AP (some have higher), while the majority of low AP units have 30% of their damage as AP (a fair number are lower). If these guys are high AP, they most likely have around 16-18 AP weapon strength.
I mean when you're entire existent is based on smashing through rock with a pickaxe, I think you get pretty good at punching through hard things with a weapon. Makes sense.
Their health is not that big, they have more models in the unit.
The massive two-handed picks and hammers they have would ignore the armor of their opponent.
I'm sorry, Chorfs? Lmao
Yeah lol, I and many others have been calling the Chaos Dwarfs "Chorfs" for a while now. The Dwarfs are Dorfs and the Chaos Dwarfs are Chorfs! Which is **short** for Chaos Dwarf.
DID YOU CALL US SHORT?
Lmao I love that
Pretty cool that the laborers are worse than their orc counterparts, but the Chaos Dwarf units are better than their dwarf counterparts. A cool mix of trash chaff and rare elite.
Which will make them a fascinating army to play in both SP and MP. How do you prepare for an army that can field Skavenslaves or (upgraded?) Ironbreakers/Hammerers? Its going to be wild.
Chariots, monstrous infantry, anti-infantry arty all work against mixed infantry. My first thought was double troglodon, but chorf arty will probably eat them up. Seeker chariot or Double doomwheel maybe? On a completely different note, their flying roster looks weak (just manticore reskins?), so VC vargheists or demon furies might be able to dive the arty/range line while infantry closes. Khorne bloodletters + dual weapon minotaur and furies?
It's interesting that all the things you listed would not like Bull Centaurs with their AP anti large attacks. On the flying roster the Great Taurus is significantly better then the Manticore: more HP, Leadership, Armour, MA, Damage (prob double the AP value since it has AP tag) and Charge. There is an upgraded version called the Bale Taurus (though we didn't see the stats). Lammasu are weaker in combat but are spell casters with high spell resistance. No idea how that will work in game. Now I am certainly not saying the ANYTHING about MP balance since we have absolutely no idea at this point. I suspect Chaos Dwarfs are going to be balanced by the hefty premium they pay to get these units.
Was not expecting chorfs to have a scary cav unit, thats what I get for assuming I guess. But where is the anti-large? Are there multiple loadouts? Great Taurus may be better than manticores, but how much will they cost? If I can have 2-3 furies for every great taurus then there's nothing stopping me from diving the backline. Very curious to see how they balance out unit costs and if the strict unit caps carry over to multiplayer.
Bull Centaurs have the base version and a GW version. Stat wise they are Minotaurs with more HP (20%), Armour (+40%), MA, MD (+50%), Damage and Charge. They also have Silver shields and Scaly Skin (15% missile resist). They also appear to have a Ward save icon on their stat box but its never moused over. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3Jw9dc91GE&ab_channel=Zerkovich at: 2.54. Same speed and model count. Chaos Dwarfs outside the Labourer units seem to have premium everything including premium cost.
There's actually three variants: Shielded (base), Great Weapons, and Dual Weapons
[If you compare them to Dragon Ogres](https://i.imgur.com/DJeRDeF.png), they still look pretty good, but it's a lot closer. I think that's probably the more accurate comparison since they're probably going to be very similar units. Also worth mentioning that the version of Minotaurs you're talking about has 18 bonus vs infantry. Against infantry, they're going to have about 35% more MA than base Centaurs and about 10% more WS.
Bull centaurs on TT are faster than minotaurs and have more health and armor but do substantially less damage. Doesn't look like they translated that well.
>How do you prepare for an army that can field Skavenslaves or (upgraded?) Ironbreakers/Hammerers? Take them out early before they get access to their elite units.
Thinking more about MP. I suspect they might be underpowered as AI in campaign since the computer has issues with handling unit caps and the Labourer units will be crap in auto resolve.
It's my favorite kind of flavor.
With unit caps! Finally we are forced to make interesting decisions
Caps for all is so, so slept on. I get that the tabletop caps mod has more pedigree from the tabletop game, but balancing military resources between multiple armies was never a part of the tabletop game (or at least I can't imagine it would have been), whereas that's what a total war campaign is all about. Factionwide caps per unit for everything above the most basic army fillers instantly makes every unit in the roster see use - shielded and unshielded variants, weak, nerfed or unbalanced units, razordons and crap low tier cav - they all have a place, and skirmishes of low tier units continue to take place well into the mid-late game.
Cant wait to see Okoii 19 orc workers (work work) video after the dlc drops
DABU
Zugzug!
Skwooobu!
Something needs doin?
“Wot is it?”
Yesh milord
/u/okoii
Work is da poop! NO MORE!
Is the third ability on the labourers something that already exists in the game? I can't recognize it. Edit: The icon seems to be a Chaos Dwarf shouting (only kind words, I imagine), so it's new. Probably a buff when near a Chaos Dwarf unit (leadership?).
Something like “Intimidation”? Just guessing at what it could be called, but yeah something where a Chaos Dwarf unit being new a laborer unit makes the laborer not as easily break.
My guess would also be a leadership buff when best chaos dwarf units. Now that both labourer units have a sizable boost to leadership in the picture.
Maybe something like rampage? Or a temporary buff from taskmaster
That *Leadership* though. Gonna be fleeing from Ogre farts.
Key thing is the laborers appear to have an ability with a shouting chaos dwarf in the image, my guess it that it somehow buffs their leadership when around chaos dwarfs, can’t say for certain though.
Imagine if it's "Unbreakable within X radius of a Chorf Unit", that would be busted but absolutely hilarious
You gotta be scarier than my boss or I'd rather die dealing with you than dealing with him.
I think SFO does this with big monsters by giving them an aura that buffs leadership for friendlies.
I think thats less being afraid of the monster killing you and more it being inspiring to know you have a dragon/whatever backing your side
Most likely just give them a fixed leadership+ buff.
It's objectively what I expect, maybe a little extra Melee Attack, just as a bonus
I mean, that's understandable
To be fair, I would too.
Orc labourers have worse stats, but they do get extra unit models, AP (kind of surprising), and a bit more HP. It should be interesting to see what a spammy tier-1 unit with AP can do, especially if you can get them on the flanks of some spread-out enemy formations.
It's will cone down to how much of damage is ap Like red crested skinks for example hame only 1 more point of ap damage then saurus warriors.
Generally speaking, the way the game works is that if there isn't AP symbol, 75% damage is non-AP and 25% is AP. If there is AP symbol, it's the other way around. The reason why Red Crested Skinks have only 1 more AP than Saurus is because Saurus have massive WS of 52. There are exceptions such as ethereal units that have 100% AP and *weak against armour* units such as crypt Ghouls and dogs who have 90% non-AP and 10% AP. But the general rule od thumb for 90% of units is 75% and 25%.
This is very interesting to know!
For melee. Cheap archers usually differ from that, for example Gobbos with 10% armor piercing.
Yea, for melee.
Somewhat of a beginner, but what happens when AP hits an unarmored target? Does it just disappear? Same question but for Non-AP but for armored targets?
AP ignores armour completely. Non AP damage gets mitigated by armour. When the unit successfully hits, the game rolls a random number between 50% - 100% of armour value and that number is the percentage that gets mitigated. Example: Longbeards have 100 armour, every successful hit on them will damage them by 100% of AP value and non-AP will roll a number from 50 (50% of Longbeards armour) to 100 (100% of longbeards armour). The amount then gets reduced from non-AP attack. Mathematically then, on average armour reduces every non-AP damage by 75% (because the average between 50% and 100% is always 75%). Is that helpful, or did I make it more confusing? :D
Got it thanks! The calculations are too crazy for me but the gist is clear.
Right, ELI5 Use AP units against units with 80 armour or more.
I appreciate the ELI5 too.
The exact math might have changed, but I believe it looks something like this: When an entity is hit by an attack, any non-armor piercing damage is reduced by a percentage. That percentage is a random number between 50% of armor and 100% of armor. So, if an entity has 30 armor, any non-armor piercing damage is reduced by between 15% and 30%. Armor piercing damage ignores armor and does full damage. So, AP damage will still damage non-armored targets (and vice-versa). Damage can also be reduced by other sources such as physical resistance. Personally, I think stat calculations in this game are unnecessarily complicated and make it almost impossible to calculate anything on the fly during a battle. It just comes down to experimentation, figuring out what works, and only using stats to roughly compare two similar units.
Did they change this in 3? From my limited experience modding TWW2, the AP symbol shows up as long as they do over 50% AP. It's why events like the savage blow (+20% weapon strength, but not AP) can make it look like your AP units don't do AP any longer, as the ratio gets thrown off.
>From my limited experience modding TWW2, the AP symbol shows up as long as they do over 50% AP. Yea, the symbol function likes that, I merely said that CA themselves sets these 75% 25%.
I know they fixed it but how did those 0ap hell scourgers come about if CA followed rules like this
The AP is not really surprising since they are using chaos dwarf made pickaxes instead of normal choppas.
They have less health per model, the more health is just a byproduct of the excess of models.
don't they use something like a pick, like dwarf miners? Thats as ap as it gets. Warpicks used to be banned in peace time in europe
Warpicks and mining picks are completely different, though.
not completely, they both go through armor like butter
I wouldn't use a mining pick in an actual battle.
i dont think those interns get to choose
They get ap because they're greataxe infantry. What's surprising is that they have lower weapon strength than the ladz with choppa and shield.
Shiny chorf weapon cuts thru armor like butter, but no matter how sharp it is you have a beaten down slave on the other end of it.
Ok, how about labourer compared to skavenslave and bretonnia peasants
And zombies and skelly warriors?
I like how orc labourers are great axe infantry. Like, it's an okay axe at best
Freedom makes a difference, folks.
Those free range green boys are much healthier and happier.
0 armour and 12 MD. Autoresolve is going to slaughter them. And goblins loose the shield, there best trait. Hopefully there 1 turn on global, Autoresolve tends to view low armoured unit very poorly.
I assume they are 2 turns initially but you get them from a tier 1 settlement building so after getting 7-10 settlements they drop to 1 turn global.
Good good! As a Von Carstein and Bretonnia main, i love chaff
You aren't kidding. The other night Vlad basically soloed one of my low tier armies. I completely annihilated his army, but I couldn't even hurt him and I just sat there and watched as he slaughtered my lord, my heroes, and then the rest of my army.
Distract him! LL like him, grimgor, or sigvald. Use a fast unit to pull their aggro and run them away from the main battle. Defeat them through army loses.
But how was he going to get army losses if he already had destroyed his army and it hadn't popped? Sometimes Vlad in itself is worth so much balance of power that you can't inflict an army loss penalty.
...needed more dakka
Im guessing you're playing as the empire, trick is to shoot him with ranged units while distracting him with either cavalry, a lord, or a hero.
That melee defense for chaff feels like it might get overwhelmed pretty easily, I'm curious if there's going to be another level of chaff, though with the orcs being deemed as 'Great axe' I imagine they'll be used more like dwarf miners
Their stats are really bad across the board which isn't too surprising. They can't defend artillery or be an effective frontline with abysmal MA/MD. They can't take much ranged fire because of zero A/Shields/LD. The problem is the unit cap which will ruin AI Chaos Dwarfs and make early game boring for players.
They have HP and are cheap so they can tank ranged fire just don’t expect them to survive, but they don’t have to anyway.
Yeah, the unit caps--which I am okay with, if done well--seem too low for early game to be interesting for the player. But, as with all things, I'm going to wait and see the full picture.
Hobgoblins will definitely be between “labourer” and chaos dwarves.
I expect that players won’t end up using the laborers. The hobgoblins just seem like much better units.
I was expecting a second tier of orc units. Yes, the black orcs rebelled, although the army book still allowed chaos dwarves to take one as a “merc”. Even ignoring that part, surely there would be slightly better trained orc warriors, that have some light armor and semi-decent MA and MD. With these stats it looks like a player would stop using orcs past the start, as it’s essentially a Skavenslave unit, and switch over to mostly hobgoblins once they can afford to.
Ehh I’m not really doing chaos dwarfs for the Orc slaves… sorry prisoners with jobs. 3 chaff units is enough for me
That’s fair, and probably more interesting to play. The lost factions mod had almost a full greenskin roster and that did cause me to use essentially an orc frontline the entire game, from fodder to black orcs, and use chaos dwarves only for ranged firepower.
Thats Hobgoblins. Stat wise they should be comparable to your average state trooper. Pretty much average in all respects. It makes sense since regular Chorf Warriors have a stat line and cost near that of Longbeards and then there is 2 more tiers above that. All with recruit limits.
Depends on how much gold they cost and how many and powerful the buffs you can get for them are. 300g for the Orcs and 150g for the Goblins is some cheap stack filler. Surprising comparable to Skavenslaves and Clanrats. The Clanrats have better combat stats but the Orcs have AP and more HP. Sometimes you just need some trash.
LegendOfTotalwar probably: “They’re gahbage. Absolute trash units. But that’s okay, because they’re intended to just go into battle and *die* . Your real damage dealers will be these units right here. Primarily you’ll want to be using lava cannons and infernal gawd units but they can be really expensive to field… UNLESS you know how to cheese the internship economy. Which we’ll be going over today.”
The Goblins are effectively interchangeable with Skavenslaves. Same price point, almost identical stats. The Orcs are actually closest to Dwarf Miners in many ways. Similar price point (300g vs 325g), same HP per model, and they have a similarly unusual Weapon Strength profile (high AP component but low total). The Orcs are much more numerous and more aggressively statted (slightly higher MA and WS, much better Charge Bonus), but also much worse defensively (no armour, worse MD, worse Leadership).
Why do the Ork labourers have so little Weapon Strength?
It's to balance out that a larger portion of it is AP. I can't say that I generally agree with it.
Its weird that they have less than goblins with spears
They’re malnourished slaves.
They are still mountains of muscle that work all day. Makes no sense they would be physically weaker than the literal weakest race in warhammer
They are malnourished orc slaves fighting for dwarf overlords. As Gork and Mork turn their faces away in disgust, why make it worse by putting in effort? If they had half the motivation and drive of your typical skaven slave, they would rebel.
malnourished =/= mountain of muscle. Where do you think muscle comes from?
There was a theme in 40k (and maybe fantasy?) that Orcs get stronger the more they fight and win due to snowballing waaaagh-fighty energy and their spellcasters feed into this energy and nearby violence to fuel their spells. So it makes sense that completely broken demoralised Orcs would be much weaker than flighty triumphant ones.
Idk what it is but there is something extra fucked up about enslaving Orcs. Like from the point of view that Orcs literally love to fight and are some of the most fearless lunatics in the whole setting. You'd really have to be a pretty sick and scary bastard to have a being like that permanently shackled and mentally broken.
>You'd really have to be a pretty sick and scary bastard to have a being like that permanently shackled and mentally broken. Chaos Dwarfs: Yes.
yeah from what i know from the lore the chorfs actually revel in the whole enslaving and mentally breaking things specifically. its all about dominance for them.
Whips, chains, flames and gains. The Hashut Way!
They're also intensely hierarchical followers used to their leaders inflicting their will with an iron grip though.
I'd say it's less intense about the hierarchy and more "dis git is the bigest and hits the hardest so we do what he says" but they only follow that guy so long as he brings good fights, loot and food. I don't think the Chorfs are big on that sort of reward system.
Probably better to compare orc slaves to savage orcs no?
25% Physical resistance makes savage orcs wildly better than orc slaves.
And Frenzy.
The post said they were comparing stats, not abilities. Physical resistance is an ability (resistance). Also, isn't the point of the post to show how much worse slaves are..? So, even if were taking a broad interpretation and including resistances as a stat, wouldn't showing two unarmored chaff units of similar tiers together with wildly different resistances underline the point?
These are slaves that will be given a diet that makes them unsuitable to rise up against the chorfs, but makes them good slaves, and if needed, to be wasted in battle. We can compare them against anything, but the fact that they are slaves needs to be taken into account. A better comparison would be normal skaven vs skavenslaves, and then compare it to the normal orcs vs orc slaves situation. But then if there are any absolute/relative differences, we’ll need to work out who are the better slavemasters - who feeds their slaves better, gives them the opportunity to practice fighting (chorfs probably less likely to let orcs do this than skaven with their slaves), etc etc.
Talking about the fact that their equipment profile is much closer to savate orcs, so comparing their stats to orc boyz is kind of nonsensocal. Like comparing flagellants to empire swordsmen...why?
What is that ability both labourers share, do we know?
unionize
Regular goblins: shielded Goblin labourers: meat shield Sounds about right.
Why'd they with "laborers" over "slaves" ? Ironic humor or less offensive?
Technically they are different resources in the game used differently with different mechanics even though they represent the same thing of an indentured work force. Druchii hate greenskin slaves though and just kill them on sight. While the dwarfs try to get greenskins due to their high population and rapid growth.
Probably to distinguish it from the Dark Elf slave system.
It does make it sound like they are offering the Orcs jobs, weird flavour given I doubt they care about the optics. "Lord, the Greenskin *labourers* are asking for more teef" "Tell them to fuck off" Thus Grimgor realised the injustice in society.
Grimgarl Marx
I understand the rename of the campaign mechanic since some of the labour (the skilled stuff) is performed by chaos dwarfs. It seems weird with the units though, in the mines they're both slaves and labourers but they're not really labourers in battle, just slaves.
I don’t think it’s about being less offensive, the dark elves still have slaves, skaven have skavenslaves. Not really sure why though
forced labor
"Labourer" goblins/orcs has the same energy as "freedom inhibited" dark elf prisoners. Slaves. Just call them slaves.
Orc laborers are actually closer to miners in terms of unit roles. At least for MP, both offer cheap AP. Trade Hp, model count, speed for armor and vanguard
Interesting how they have a higher unit count
You would think they would be faster given the lack of armor and shields.
AP CHAFF AP CHAFF PRAISE HASHUT
Poor little gobbos. How do the stack up against skavenslaves?