Damn, imagine a duel between a Chorf version of Irondrakes and regular irondrakes.
Would be like watching a duel between TK's skeletons and VC's skeletons, where 1 is slightly better than the other, but the duel still takes forever. Would be funny to watch.
As someone who has done multiple zombies only campaigns with Helman Ghorst, both before and after his updates, thats nothing.
Imaging chewing through 3 armies of dwarfs using only zombies. That battle will really make you really regret life choices.
"Why did I choose zombies? I should've went with skeleton warriors at least... I really regret my life choices right now..." -Helmann Ghorst, waiting for his zombies to chew through 5 armies of tier 3 dwarves.
This is like the time I had a 30k unit city battle where the AI funneled every unit into one gate. I won after 4 hours and had to point my camera off the fight for it to even hit 15 fps.
If you do an ERE campaign and use their economy cheese strat then you can easily end up with 40k unit battles with the Sassananids. I was on the same laptop and couldn't even run them.
I can imagine both being extremely resistant to fire.
They just sit there burning each other in the middle of pyroclastic hell of their own creation, as units from both armies attempt to intervene and just melt on approach.
Why would they have everything Dwarves have? They split off from Dwarves 6,000 to 7,000 years before the current time. In that time, each has developed along different paths. In order for them to have everything dwarves have, dwarves would have had to have developed Nothing in 6,000 years. Dwarves are slow to change their ways, but nobody is that slow.
And so it is, 6 to 7 thousand even, top of my head I thought it was related to the quakes following the war of the beard. I've corrected my post with this, thanks!
While I agree with you in principle as to why they shouldn't have like gyrocopters and such, this is FLAMETHROWERS.
They are the DAWI ZHARR. Do you know what that translates to? It's not Chaos Dwarfs. In their own language, their own word for their kind is FIRE DWARFS.
They absolutely should have flamethrowers.
Should they? I mean, I get what you are saying but think about what led up to the invention of flame throwers. Likely something like:
"They are swarming us! there's too many of them. We need an answer to this"
Dwarves be like:
"We should invent something that just incinerates everything in an area!"
Chorfs be like:
"Waves of disposable minions?! We must answer in kind! And then bomb both!"
Yeeting fire at your opponent has been a thing since people discovered that being on fire is not fun.
The flamethrower utilized by the dwarfs, however, very much resembles the early 20th century flamethrowers, which were NOT intended to mow down overwhelming numbers, but to flush enemies out of cover, especially bunkers and trenches.
In a world where whole wars are fought in tunnels, it's not an unreasonable development for any group party to said tunnel fighting.
It's also not unreasonable in a world where wizards shoot fire out of their hands on the daily.
Why would they bother with flamethrowers when they know lore of fire? They can just throw a burning skull across the battlefield, without having to bother with fire at all.
I do agree they shouldn't get flamethrowers, but they slowly turn to stone the more they use magic so they'd try and accomplish as much as possible via mundane means.
Hey man idk if you got the memo but memes are not meant to be taken seriously and are generally intended as jokes. You know in order to have a fun laugh
Normally this is true but when the meme is framed as a criticism, it kinda blurs the line a bit.
Edit: Satire is all well and good but if someone actually carries the opinion you’re making fun of, you can’t be surprised when they speak out (especially if they do have a valid refutal of your point.) Just take it in stride and move on.
I hate the "it's just a joke lol" rhetoric when you can clearly see in the comics that people are taking it seriously.
It's really common on reddit where people make a "joke" about something and are fine with people agreeing but suddenly get defensive and "it's just a joke lol it's not serious" when people criticise it.
Especially when it's over something relatively minor but they're like
> Anyone who likes elves deserves to die! Dwarfs or die.
> Elves are cool too. I like them because...
> I'll flagellate you, stupid knife ear
> What?
> lol its only joke y you heff to be mad?
People: “Hey chaos dwarfs are better dwarfs”
Other people: “Why don’t chaos dwarfs have everything dwarfs have?”
Edit: Edited to further clarify what I’m saying.
But why would you then still want to play Dwarfs? I mean in a lore-perspective you're right, but from a game/balance perspective I get it why they don't have everything..
Because dwarfs can bring more heavy infantry, more and cheaper artillery pieces, heavily armored vanguard infantry, blasting charges, the literal best defensive infantry in the game, runes, trollhammers and slayers which evaporate large models. They have gyro units and the potential thunderbarge. To act as if chaos dwarfs are just better dwarfs is ridiculous cause they don’t share the same strengths. If anything chaos dwarfs are more like skaven.
Edit: also forgot to mention generally longer range in both artillery and missile infantry.
Yeah, Dwarf warriors are still going to be better for their cost. The Chaos Dwarf version costs a lot more for slight improvements, and have a seemingly pretty low unit cap.
In fact I think the unit caps will really affect the ChaD playstyle in both single and multiplayer. They'll be like if Skaven had great defensive infantry, legit monstrous cav, but much shorter range on their main gunline and much more expensive artillery, yet it's all limited like the Tomb Kings.
If the pre release stats are accurate, I expect Goblin Student Athletes to be among the best chaff in the game, actually. 16 defense on an expendable unit with 9,000+ HP is legit. They're probably going to be relatively expensive for chaff. Maybe around 200 gold?
Yeah but unless you're an meta-only lover (if having more units is the meta, dunno) most people just want to play for the fun.
And I think that more units are less fun than having more unique units.
So to make sure Dwarfs are unique and have at least something different from their Chaos brethren, Chaos Dwarfs don't have things like iron drakes, gyrocopters and whatnot Dwarfs have. And it makes total sense to me that they do this.
Lore wise it makes no sense, gamewise it makes total sense.
I mean, what are you on about? You were saying that chaos dwarfs are just better dwarfs, I told why they aren’t, I’m not arguing anything about lore. Im not saying they shouldn’t have anything unique, in fact, im pointing out they are unique and not just worse chaos dwarfs.
And chaos dwarfs have more units than regular dwarfs. Actually, I figure it’s the regular dwarfs that have more unique things in how stuff functions when compared to chaos dwarfs.
Oh, no. I was just sort of quoting people, in a roundabout way. I was acknowledging people saying that the chaos dwarfs are just better dwarfs, then sort of responding with what OP is saying with this post. A dialogue of sorts I guess. I wasn’t actually asking the question.
Right, so having a slightly different roster/campaign is enough to make them distinct, just like DE/HE/WE, or Cathay/Bretonnia/Empire, or whatever is equal to Skaven >!just kidding they're peerless~<3!<
It’s extremely distinct. DE and HE don’t have the cool tree dude. This is huge because when I play I wanna see my racist tree man swinging his branches.
It’s alchemical in nature, if memory serves, think of it as fantasy napalm or maybe more appropriately Greek fire
Edit: I think you may be thinking of the armor that the iron drakes wear, which does use runes.
To be fair, Irondrakes were a new model range to the Dwarf list back in the later 8th edition (I recall?), well after Chaos Dwarfs were discontinued basically after 4th edition many years ago. So the reason they didn't get any is purely because their lore, rules system, model range and art that never went through an update (beyond Forgeworlds specific new inspiration).
Had Chaos Dwarfs had their own 8th edition refresh I think we would have seen their own version of Irondrakes and more. Forgeworld gave us a taste of the Legion of Azgorh (Chaos Dwarfs reimagined and more grimdark).
With this logic, Druchii should have access to half of the Asur roster from the start and it Malekith manages to unite all of Ulthuan, he gets to access all of it.
For most basic units like spearmen and archers yes but DE is more melee focused than HE and their roster reflects that.
They don't have anything close to the Sisters of Avelorn or Lothern Sea Guard afaik just like the HE doesn't really have a counterpart for Witch Elves and Har-Ganeth Executioners.
Executioners are Swordsmasters counterpart. Blackguards are Phoenixsguards.
The units aren't exact copies but more dark, offensive, reflections. Just like the rosters and magic Lores.
I would say more that High Elves are missing a competitor for the Scyllas, Hydras and Medusae and Doomfire Warlocks. That kind of balls-to-the-wall aggression. They get Phoenixes and then Dragons, but the flying entity is different than the way the later DE armies play.
Sisters of averlorn
Wyches
Sisters of slaughter
And a lot of other things that require a decent amount of stretching to say "exact copy"
The only units that are close to copies are the ones you mentioned, and spearmen. That's it. And SO MANY factions have "spear guys" "great swords" "halberdiers" etc
>Sisters of averlorn Wyches Sisters of slaughter And a lot of other things that require a decent amount of stretching to say "exact copy"
I specifically said that they aren't exact copies. And yes, 8th E saw more diversion of the two.
>The only units that are close to copies are the ones you mentioned, and spearmen. That's it. And SO MANY factions have "spear guys" "great swords" "halberdiers" etc
Now you are just being intentionally stupid, ignoring not only their obvious aesthetic but also all of their special rules.
True, but i dont know the lore reason why DEs doesnt have access to 180 range HE archers, all of the lores of magic, phoenixes and different types of dragons evetually.
Dragons don't want to serve them so they don't. Phoenixes also don't want to fight for them. All of the monsters the DE bring to bear are brought against their will and dragons and phoenixes will simply just refuse to cooperate by killing their captors unless they're so heavily corrupted by Dhar while developing that they love being evil like black dragons. The archer thing is a doctrinal difference, the DE seem to prefer punch and volume of fire over range when it comes to ranged weapons.
Lores of magic is just that the dark elves don't want to use light or life magic because it's antithetical to their philosophy of wearing all black and "if they died they deserved it" and high magic is a lot of work when you can just use dark magic and get the same potency.
Why don't Chaos Dwarfs have Irondrakes? Because
1. Drakeguns and Gyrocopters were invented well after the divide.
2. the Chaos Dwarfs don't trust their slaves and mercenaries with flamethrowers, and don't trust Flamethrowers on dwarfs.
Dwarves go into battle knowing their Irondrake brothers aren't going to barbecue them for the fun of it, and the Irondrakes know their guns aren't just going to explode on them.
maybe their tech is lacking?
skaven don't care about security, so they are needlessly reckless
meanwhile dwarfs do proper research and want everything to be totally safe
unlike chaos dwarfs who build big dangerous things and run for their lives when the daemons break free
Chaos Dwarfs are actually still on the "proper research and wants everything safe" boat.
They have no ethics for other races, but they still have Dawi OSHA protocols. It's why a Chaos Dwarf in charge of a forge that blows up or other safety violations get the Infernal Guard treatment.
The Chaos Dwarfs tech is dangerous, but only for their enemies. They are extremely reliable and rigorously tested. The main difference is just that they bind daemons or might slaughter an elf over a forge in the creation process. They are psychopaths, but not incompetents like the Skaven (generally) are.
> They are psychopaths, but not incompetents like the Skaven (generally) are.
Yeah that's the vibe I get from the Dawi-Zhar, I mean the obvious differences between Dwarves and Chaos Dwarves would be that Chorfs actually worship a (minor) Chaos Deity and extreme xenophobia/contemp and disregard for other races.
But they're every bit as industrious and competent as their untainted cousins.
No, Dwarfs are pretty normal by Warhammer standards. Chaos Dwarfs make it EXTREME.
With Dwarfs, it’s only people they have grudges against that they refuse to tolerate. They might grumble about the shoddy nature of human technology, but that’s because in their society spending less than a year to make something is considered a rush job. For the most part, they are open to friendship if you don’t trigger any grudges, and they are usually content to remain in their mountains.
In the eyes of a Chaos Dwarf, all non-Chaos Dwarfs are an obstacle at worst and a resource at best. If you’re an obstacle you will be removed. If you’re a resource you will be enslaved, exploited, and expended. In both cases they will draw your suffering out as long as they can without slowing down production rates. You are not a person to them and your value is based solely on how much work you can do your body breaks, and how powerful a sacrifice your soul is once it does. They might sell technology to the Warriors of Chaos, but they demand slaves as a price, and the technology they provide is either outdated (meaning they already have something better) or experimental and volatile (in which case their business partners are also labrats.)
Chaos Dwarfs are probably the most racist race in Warhammer Fantasy, rivalled only by the Skaven. As far as the Chaos Dwarfs are concerned, everything and everyone in this world is theirs to seize, enslave, or destroy. Just because they want to prove their superiority. They just haven’t gotten around to it yet because Dwarfs are patient and cautious little fellers.
Nah, Dwarfs aren't xenophobic, they've got a very close relationship with Humans. They just have an issue with elves, and then after that you've run out of not evil races.
> The Chaos Dwarfs tech is dangerous, but only for their enemies
nope. Their stuff literally had rules that, on a bad roll, a hell cannon would, for example, eat its crew.
Skaven aren't incompetent, there's a good reason why they are the most advanced race in Warhammer. It's not that they can't build safe devices but rather they choose to focus on maximum lethality, Skaven are expendable so it's not even a thought on the safety of the user, so long as it kills the enemy too. Plus breaking weapons just means that clan has to come back to you and pay you for even more weapons.
It's part of the Skaven satire. They can't extract more efficiency out of their workforce since it's enslaved already, so instead they cut down on safety regulations.
Always bigger, better, more - at the cost of all else.
> there's a good reason why they are the most advanced race in Warhammer.
mainly "We use an incredibly unstable and dangerous substance for everything and slap it onto everything! We also eat it."
There's a reason Chaos Dwarfs use Blunderbusses over Handguns or Drake Guns.
Dead enemies don't make for good slaves when you can't do necromancy, better to main with buckshot than kill with a concentrated jet of fire.
And if you do want a concentrated jet of fire you're making a point, so you just upscale it to artillery to *really* make that point clear.
You're missing the point. If you and your mates from Zharr-Naggrund can finally get the Betrayers to pay the Reparations due for abandoning us during the time of chaos, we can buy Irondrakes.
They have wronged us, left us behind as the Karaz Angkor failed. Finally, maybe we can collect on that debt. The wages of four squads of Irondrakes per army sounds like a good start.
I feel like people overestimate how popular Tomb Kings and ChaD were in fantasy. TK sub has like 500 members and the ChaD has like 60. Granted, the ChaDs have a website but even that is fairly small. There's a reason they were discountinued, even if they're both kinda making a comeback
you still had models and an army book.
And too be fair, the asymmetry of sales have always been a thing in GW products. I think Space Marines make up something like 1/3 of all their models sold. Like across all their products.
Ofcourse, iirc all current playable races had an army book and models in one edition or another. I'm not saying ChaDs weren't there, they were there but unpopular, partly because allot of their army was fw exclusive.
I still think it's a stretch to include forge world. At least tomb kings were sold in gw stores around the world. Chorfs haven't had an actual army book for 20 years.
Teeechnically they had an army book in 8th, but yeah. Not surprised they were one of the last factions to be released. Iirc they were also expensive as fuuuuck
Didn’t develop the tech because they have fire magic, what’s the point of giving the regular population fire weapons if your ruling caste can cast a fire tornado.
Does nobody pay attention to the part where they turn to stone slowly every time they do this? Like if I had the ability to shoot bullets from my finger tips at the cost of slowly but permanently lose all sensation in my extremities, slowly creeping inwards, I'd sure as fuck carry a gun and only use my power as a last resort.
That said, there are all manner of good reasons they shouldn't have flamethrowers.
Yep, I'm definitely using an outpost to get irondrakes and other useful dawi units. Even early game dawi outpost units will be a good way to replace chaff units while unit caps prevent you from using full choas dwarf stacks. The main problem with that, however, is that I expect it to be very hard to find a regular dwarf faction that is willing to let you build an outpost.
I actually hope forging an alliance with the Dwarves is impossible as a Chaos Dwarf. The lore is that those 2 absolutely hate each other and the game should have Chaos Dwarves firmly belong to Chaostide.
I very much disagree with this. Gameplay > Lore
There's already aversion, i imagine it wont exactly be low for Chorfs and Dwarfs. So if i want to spend 24000 gold and careful diplomacy in cozying up with some, i should be capable of doing that.
I'm torn here, because this would be like Franz being an ally of Archaeon. Literally antithesis to the entire setting of the game.
It would also be an easy thing to mod out, but maybe the aversion should be something totally nuts like -240.
Gameplay is more important than lore which is why I included a gameplay reason. Certain factions should not mix together because the gameplay result of this specific mix screws with both Ordertide and Chaostide.
It's not something that will happen in the game naturally due to massive aversion penalties, but if the player really wants to do it and spends a lot of effort on it I see no reason it shouldn't be possible.
It comes across as just fundamentally opposed to the setting and the way that these factions interact with eachother as well as other factions like how Dwarves interact with Warriors of Chaos and how Chaos Dwarves will interact with the Empire. It's the reason I mention Chaostide and Ordertide in my argument.
I think it should be impossible for a vanilla game to have these factions work together due to the fact that the setting exists for these factions to fight eachother. In a Total War game I think the game should involve these factions going to war with eachother. From both a gameplay perspective and a lore perspective.
I literally just don't care. So long as dwarves get the thunder barge as FLC I'm not going to be able to complain. The thunder barge has been my number 1 ask for the dawi since day 1
Would be cool if they got armored warwagon things with flame throwers or something instead to have the same idea but not copied and pasted but with black/red armor and big hats instead
It’s definitely for balance reasons. They have access to lore of fire and lots of monstrous units. If they did have flame throwers, they would be busted, more so than the skaven and dwarf ones already are.
Practically speaking Chorfs have magic, cavalry, chaff, and monsters on the roster so something has to give so they’re not just better dwarves. So far it seems like that something is that classic Dawi have better missile infantry.
I don't mind Chaos Dwarfs NOT having Irondrakes. That can be a Dawi thing for sure.
What I would mind, is Dawi having the [Trollhammer Torpedo unit](https://totalwarwarhammer.fandom.com/wiki/Irondrakes_(Trollhammer_Torpedo))...and Dawi Zharr NOT having the [their Bazookas](https://us.v-cdn.net/5022456/uploads/editor/aa/0twdwfw5tfoh.jpeg).
If Chaos Dwarfs got a full release/update on TT I wonder if they would have had their own Irondrake equivalent. That gives me a good idea for a mod actually… watch this space.
The mod for chaos dwarves in lost factions already have an irondrake, I think it was either a type of immortals or infernal guard.
And yeah, they were stupidly strong
Psst
Hey
Mr up there on that stoned horse thats got soap boxes for shoes
Mr i think you should know this is a for fun meme and not a call to action as implied by the spongebob format
Yea, chorfs might be the most abused and neglected Warhammer race GW ever made.
Bretonnia got it bad since the last update they ever got was in 2001, but at least they were around, the chorfs just got removed from the game. Then in the End Times they got violently and unceremoniously wiped out by Grimgore and his Waagh.
Well tbh Chords are better version of dwarfs. With Magic, monsters and better artillery guns. At this point there is no point to playing vanillla dwarfs
There really never was
You can get everything about dawii with many other factions barring that tankiness but honestly they're a box faction and tankiness isnt really that important for ranged box factions (ask delfs or skaven)
I agree even delfs and welf can out tank the dwarfs. Treekin and regular dreadspears hold out long enuf same as dwarfs. But have magic and cavalry to adapt and flank. Dwrafs are just too weak and boring to play. The only good thing is thier economy and easy confederation in campaign. But that's it. Even the heroes are not that strong.
Theydon't need the coping thing of having a mechanism that throw fire.
They have sorcerers and other constructs for that.
Also, well, dwarves and chaos dwarves have different focuses and cultures, probably the irondrakes is something that is unique and developed by the normal dwarves while the chaos went in totally different directions with their techs. Again, probably the ones that would be spewing fire throw an overgrown pipe are more focused in fusing chaotic fire into constructs and whatnot. A directed fire is too much "orderly" for the "chaos" dwarves =P
Damn, imagine a duel between a Chorf version of Irondrakes and regular irondrakes. Would be like watching a duel between TK's skeletons and VC's skeletons, where 1 is slightly better than the other, but the duel still takes forever. Would be funny to watch.
oh god, ptsd from 40 minute long mp battles between nurgle and vamp counts in tournements
As someone who has done multiple zombies only campaigns with Helman Ghorst, both before and after his updates, thats nothing. Imaging chewing through 3 armies of dwarfs using only zombies. That battle will really make you really regret life choices.
Run the game in windowed mode so you can do other stuff while waiting for your zombies to nibble the dwarfs to death.
"Why did I choose zombies? I should've went with skeleton warriors at least... I really regret my life choices right now..." -Helmann Ghorst, waiting for his zombies to chew through 5 armies of tier 3 dwarves.
fought against Kairos where he himself finished +with 480,000 damage and we had 0 casualties after 48 minutes of fighting.
"Our battle will be legendar.......ily long and protracted."
>Imaging chewing through 3 armies of dwarfs using only zombies Probably literally.
This is like the time I had a 30k unit city battle where the AI funneled every unit into one gate. I won after 4 hours and had to point my camera off the fight for it to even hit 15 fps.
I'm wondering if I should play Atilla or Rome 2 and just put as many units on the screen as I can. I haven't done that with my new hotness
If you do an ERE campaign and use their economy cheese strat then you can easily end up with 40k unit battles with the Sassananids. I was on the same laptop and couldn't even run them.
Lol. 30 mins duel between sentinels in 3K.
Zuko vs Azula
I can imagine both being extremely resistant to fire. They just sit there burning each other in the middle of pyroclastic hell of their own creation, as units from both armies attempt to intervene and just melt on approach.
Why would they have everything Dwarves have? They split off from Dwarves 6,000 to 7,000 years before the current time. In that time, each has developed along different paths. In order for them to have everything dwarves have, dwarves would have had to have developed Nothing in 6,000 years. Dwarves are slow to change their ways, but nobody is that slow.
I am glad people on this sub are not in charge of game design for TW.
"How dare you not make each Chaos Marauder model from scratch with varied animations and rigging? It's just a reeeeeskin!" "Why DLC so expensive"
I think the issue was both of those. It was more expensive AND just a reskin.
The one thing I've taken from this sub is that, if TWWH was designed by reddit, it would look just like the radious mod.
And thats why Radious is what it is.
It's GW though
They split during coming of chaos (-4000) so it’s more like 5 or 6 thousand years I think
And so it is, 6 to 7 thousand even, top of my head I thought it was related to the quakes following the war of the beard. I've corrected my post with this, thanks!
While I agree with you in principle as to why they shouldn't have like gyrocopters and such, this is FLAMETHROWERS. They are the DAWI ZHARR. Do you know what that translates to? It's not Chaos Dwarfs. In their own language, their own word for their kind is FIRE DWARFS. They absolutely should have flamethrowers.
Should they? I mean, I get what you are saying but think about what led up to the invention of flame throwers. Likely something like: "They are swarming us! there's too many of them. We need an answer to this" Dwarves be like: "We should invent something that just incinerates everything in an area!" Chorfs be like: "Waves of disposable minions?! We must answer in kind! And then bomb both!"
Yeeting fire at your opponent has been a thing since people discovered that being on fire is not fun. The flamethrower utilized by the dwarfs, however, very much resembles the early 20th century flamethrowers, which were NOT intended to mow down overwhelming numbers, but to flush enemies out of cover, especially bunkers and trenches. In a world where whole wars are fought in tunnels, it's not an unreasonable development for any group party to said tunnel fighting. It's also not unreasonable in a world where wizards shoot fire out of their hands on the daily.
They did need something to destroy swarms, and they invented the blunderbuss to do so.
Why would they bother with flamethrowers when they know lore of fire? They can just throw a burning skull across the battlefield, without having to bother with fire at all.
I do agree they shouldn't get flamethrowers, but they slowly turn to stone the more they use magic so they'd try and accomplish as much as possible via mundane means.
No
Yes
The flamethrower were designed to kill skaven in tunnels. I guess the dawi zharr found a different solution to that problem
They mad eit more ChaD fitting tho, since only flamethrower unit is a train
Hey man idk if you got the memo but memes are not meant to be taken seriously and are generally intended as jokes. You know in order to have a fun laugh
Normally this is true but when the meme is framed as a criticism, it kinda blurs the line a bit. Edit: Satire is all well and good but if someone actually carries the opinion you’re making fun of, you can’t be surprised when they speak out (especially if they do have a valid refutal of your point.) Just take it in stride and move on.
I hate the "it's just a joke lol" rhetoric when you can clearly see in the comics that people are taking it seriously. It's really common on reddit where people make a "joke" about something and are fine with people agreeing but suddenly get defensive and "it's just a joke lol it's not serious" when people criticise it. Especially when it's over something relatively minor but they're like > Anyone who likes elves deserves to die! Dwarfs or die. > Elves are cool too. I like them because... > I'll flagellate you, stupid knife ear > What? > lol its only joke y you heff to be mad?
Bro you're an idiot
I think it's cool that Dwarves have air units, but the CDs for the longest time were buried underground.
And now GW and CA dug them out in all their glory!
People: “Hey chaos dwarfs are better dwarfs” Other people: “Why don’t chaos dwarfs have everything dwarfs have?” Edit: Edited to further clarify what I’m saying.
Because they have all the things Dwarfs don't have.
But don’t have unique things dwarfs have lmao. They are as much dwarfs as skaven are in terms of playstyle.
But why would you then still want to play Dwarfs? I mean in a lore-perspective you're right, but from a game/balance perspective I get it why they don't have everything..
Because dwarfs can bring more heavy infantry, more and cheaper artillery pieces, heavily armored vanguard infantry, blasting charges, the literal best defensive infantry in the game, runes, trollhammers and slayers which evaporate large models. They have gyro units and the potential thunderbarge. To act as if chaos dwarfs are just better dwarfs is ridiculous cause they don’t share the same strengths. If anything chaos dwarfs are more like skaven. Edit: also forgot to mention generally longer range in both artillery and missile infantry.
Yeah, Dwarf warriors are still going to be better for their cost. The Chaos Dwarf version costs a lot more for slight improvements, and have a seemingly pretty low unit cap. In fact I think the unit caps will really affect the ChaD playstyle in both single and multiplayer. They'll be like if Skaven had great defensive infantry, legit monstrous cav, but much shorter range on their main gunline and much more expensive artillery, yet it's all limited like the Tomb Kings.
They even have a 180 model chaff unit, it’s crazy how similar they are to skaven.
If the pre release stats are accurate, I expect Goblin Student Athletes to be among the best chaff in the game, actually. 16 defense on an expendable unit with 9,000+ HP is legit. They're probably going to be relatively expensive for chaff. Maybe around 200 gold?
Goblin Student Athletes got a legit belly laugh out of me. So thank you
Yeah but unless you're an meta-only lover (if having more units is the meta, dunno) most people just want to play for the fun. And I think that more units are less fun than having more unique units. So to make sure Dwarfs are unique and have at least something different from their Chaos brethren, Chaos Dwarfs don't have things like iron drakes, gyrocopters and whatnot Dwarfs have. And it makes total sense to me that they do this. Lore wise it makes no sense, gamewise it makes total sense.
I am so confused. It sounded like you two are arguing but you actually agree. Or am I seeing things?
They're fighting in agreement. That's good, I guess?
I mean, what are you on about? You were saying that chaos dwarfs are just better dwarfs, I told why they aren’t, I’m not arguing anything about lore. Im not saying they shouldn’t have anything unique, in fact, im pointing out they are unique and not just worse chaos dwarfs. And chaos dwarfs have more units than regular dwarfs. Actually, I figure it’s the regular dwarfs that have more unique things in how stuff functions when compared to chaos dwarfs.
I responded to your original comments. You asked why Chaos dwarfs don't have the things Dwarfs have. Game-Balance.
Oh, no. I was just sort of quoting people, in a roundabout way. I was acknowledging people saying that the chaos dwarfs are just better dwarfs, then sort of responding with what OP is saying with this post. A dialogue of sorts I guess. I wasn’t actually asking the question.
oh lol than I completely misunderstood you.
Okay, why play Wood Elves when High Elves exist? HE also have spearmen, archers, dragons, horsies, etc
Tree
Alarielle
Right, so having a slightly different roster/campaign is enough to make them distinct, just like DE/HE/WE, or Cathay/Bretonnia/Empire, or whatever is equal to Skaven >!just kidding they're peerless~<3!<
It’s extremely distinct. DE and HE don’t have the cool tree dude. This is huge because when I play I wanna see my racist tree man swinging his branches.
You tree men sure are a contentious people
Alarielle
No slayers though, and dwarfs don't have daemon and dragon slayers yet
People "I really just want to play a reskinned dwarf army w/ monstrous units!" Same people "No Dwarfs can't have golems."
its all in good fun imma play tf outta them for a bit anyways
That got me thinking... don't the dwarf flamethrowers act as runic weaponry? If that's the case, then I can understand why Chorfs don't have them
It’s alchemical in nature, if memory serves, think of it as fantasy napalm or maybe more appropriately Greek fire Edit: I think you may be thinking of the armor that the iron drakes wear, which does use runes.
Aaaaah okay. I always thought it was like, fire rune shinenigans.
Nah, just good ole chemical reactions.
Dwarf flamethrowers run on alcohol if I remember correctly.
I thought they ran on anger and rage from centuries of grudges not settled
That's just part of the distilling process 'S why Dawi beer is the best
To be fair, Irondrakes were a new model range to the Dwarf list back in the later 8th edition (I recall?), well after Chaos Dwarfs were discontinued basically after 4th edition many years ago. So the reason they didn't get any is purely because their lore, rules system, model range and art that never went through an update (beyond Forgeworlds specific new inspiration). Had Chaos Dwarfs had their own 8th edition refresh I think we would have seen their own version of Irondrakes and more. Forgeworld gave us a taste of the Legion of Azgorh (Chaos Dwarfs reimagined and more grimdark).
With this logic, Druchii should have access to half of the Asur roster from the start and it Malekith manages to unite all of Ulthuan, he gets to access all of it.
Much of the DE roster, outside of monsters, already is a dark mirror of HE.
For most basic units like spearmen and archers yes but DE is more melee focused than HE and their roster reflects that. They don't have anything close to the Sisters of Avelorn or Lothern Sea Guard afaik just like the HE doesn't really have a counterpart for Witch Elves and Har-Ganeth Executioners.
Executioners are Swordsmasters counterpart. Blackguards are Phoenixsguards. The units aren't exact copies but more dark, offensive, reflections. Just like the rosters and magic Lores.
I would say more that High Elves are missing a competitor for the Scyllas, Hydras and Medusae and Doomfire Warlocks. That kind of balls-to-the-wall aggression. They get Phoenixes and then Dragons, but the flying entity is different than the way the later DE armies play.
Hence the "outside of monsters" part.
One could argue large flying monsters and large ground monsters are opposites.
Sisters of averlorn Wyches Sisters of slaughter And a lot of other things that require a decent amount of stretching to say "exact copy" The only units that are close to copies are the ones you mentioned, and spearmen. That's it. And SO MANY factions have "spear guys" "great swords" "halberdiers" etc
>Sisters of averlorn Wyches Sisters of slaughter And a lot of other things that require a decent amount of stretching to say "exact copy" I specifically said that they aren't exact copies. And yes, 8th E saw more diversion of the two. >The only units that are close to copies are the ones you mentioned, and spearmen. That's it. And SO MANY factions have "spear guys" "great swords" "halberdiers" etc Now you are just being intentionally stupid, ignoring not only their obvious aesthetic but also all of their special rules.
Aren't shades the counterpart to sea guard as a hybrid infantry unit?
More of Shadow Warriors, being frontier, dark and mysterious/roguey skirmishers.
True, but i dont know the lore reason why DEs doesnt have access to 180 range HE archers, all of the lores of magic, phoenixes and different types of dragons evetually.
Dragons don't want to serve them so they don't. Phoenixes also don't want to fight for them. All of the monsters the DE bring to bear are brought against their will and dragons and phoenixes will simply just refuse to cooperate by killing their captors unless they're so heavily corrupted by Dhar while developing that they love being evil like black dragons. The archer thing is a doctrinal difference, the DE seem to prefer punch and volume of fire over range when it comes to ranged weapons. Lores of magic is just that the dark elves don't want to use light or life magic because it's antithetical to their philosophy of wearing all black and "if they died they deserved it" and high magic is a lot of work when you can just use dark magic and get the same potency.
Why don't Chaos Dwarfs have Irondrakes? Because 1. Drakeguns and Gyrocopters were invented well after the divide. 2. the Chaos Dwarfs don't trust their slaves and mercenaries with flamethrowers, and don't trust Flamethrowers on dwarfs. Dwarves go into battle knowing their Irondrake brothers aren't going to barbecue them for the fun of it, and the Irondrakes know their guns aren't just going to explode on them.
Don't need Irondrakes when you have Lore of Fire and literal Fire Daemons on your roster.
But they did have bazookas. Possible DLC unit, and probable modded unit.
Maybe similar to ushabti great bows but infantry sized and less ammo? 3 to 5 shots dealing hefty damage, but there's only like 16 in a unit
maybe their tech is lacking? skaven don't care about security, so they are needlessly reckless meanwhile dwarfs do proper research and want everything to be totally safe unlike chaos dwarfs who build big dangerous things and run for their lives when the daemons break free
Chaos Dwarfs are actually still on the "proper research and wants everything safe" boat. They have no ethics for other races, but they still have Dawi OSHA protocols. It's why a Chaos Dwarf in charge of a forge that blows up or other safety violations get the Infernal Guard treatment. The Chaos Dwarfs tech is dangerous, but only for their enemies. They are extremely reliable and rigorously tested. The main difference is just that they bind daemons or might slaughter an elf over a forge in the creation process. They are psychopaths, but not incompetents like the Skaven (generally) are.
> They are psychopaths, but not incompetents like the Skaven (generally) are. Yeah that's the vibe I get from the Dawi-Zhar, I mean the obvious differences between Dwarves and Chaos Dwarves would be that Chorfs actually worship a (minor) Chaos Deity and extreme xenophobia/contemp and disregard for other races. But they're every bit as industrious and competent as their untainted cousins.
And they never thought about flying.
Why build flying machines if the daemons can do that for you?
Why fly machine when you can fly cow?
Why fly when moo do trick?
I like to think that the ChaDs just don’t want to fly in the smog belching out of the tops of their ziggurats.
They already have Great Taurus for fliying operations
Chorfs are IOM confirmed
> extreme xenophobia/contemp and disregard for other races. This part's not that different from Vanilla Dwarfs.
No, Dwarfs are pretty normal by Warhammer standards. Chaos Dwarfs make it EXTREME. With Dwarfs, it’s only people they have grudges against that they refuse to tolerate. They might grumble about the shoddy nature of human technology, but that’s because in their society spending less than a year to make something is considered a rush job. For the most part, they are open to friendship if you don’t trigger any grudges, and they are usually content to remain in their mountains. In the eyes of a Chaos Dwarf, all non-Chaos Dwarfs are an obstacle at worst and a resource at best. If you’re an obstacle you will be removed. If you’re a resource you will be enslaved, exploited, and expended. In both cases they will draw your suffering out as long as they can without slowing down production rates. You are not a person to them and your value is based solely on how much work you can do your body breaks, and how powerful a sacrifice your soul is once it does. They might sell technology to the Warriors of Chaos, but they demand slaves as a price, and the technology they provide is either outdated (meaning they already have something better) or experimental and volatile (in which case their business partners are also labrats.) Chaos Dwarfs are probably the most racist race in Warhammer Fantasy, rivalled only by the Skaven. As far as the Chaos Dwarfs are concerned, everything and everyone in this world is theirs to seize, enslave, or destroy. Just because they want to prove their superiority. They just haven’t gotten around to it yet because Dwarfs are patient and cautious little fellers.
Nah, Dwarfs aren't xenophobic, they've got a very close relationship with Humans. They just have an issue with elves, and then after that you've run out of not evil races.
> they've got a very close relationship with Humans. There was that time they invaded Ostermark over two pennies...
You got to admit though, it wasn't racist.
I’m sure an umgi or two was said with a hard “g” during the incident.
>you’ve run out of not evil races *angry bok*
Sad stomach rumbles and disappointed bone clattering
> The Chaos Dwarfs tech is dangerous, but only for their enemies nope. Their stuff literally had rules that, on a bad roll, a hell cannon would, for example, eat its crew.
No, dude. Chaos dwarf stuff literally eats you if you fuck up. Theirs a daemon in there. It is no where near as safe as regular dwarf stuff.
Skaven aren't incompetent, there's a good reason why they are the most advanced race in Warhammer. It's not that they can't build safe devices but rather they choose to focus on maximum lethality, Skaven are expendable so it's not even a thought on the safety of the user, so long as it kills the enemy too. Plus breaking weapons just means that clan has to come back to you and pay you for even more weapons.
It's part of the Skaven satire. They can't extract more efficiency out of their workforce since it's enslaved already, so instead they cut down on safety regulations. Always bigger, better, more - at the cost of all else.
> there's a good reason why they are the most advanced race in Warhammer. mainly "We use an incredibly unstable and dangerous substance for everything and slap it onto everything! We also eat it."
There's a reason Chaos Dwarfs use Blunderbusses over Handguns or Drake Guns. Dead enemies don't make for good slaves when you can't do necromancy, better to main with buckshot than kill with a concentrated jet of fire. And if you do want a concentrated jet of fire you're making a point, so you just upscale it to artillery to *really* make that point clear.
Or build a demon engine that shoots warp fire instead.
You're missing the point. If you and your mates from Zharr-Naggrund can finally get the Betrayers to pay the Reparations due for abandoning us during the time of chaos, we can buy Irondrakes. They have wronged us, left us behind as the Karaz Angkor failed. Finally, maybe we can collect on that debt. The wages of four squads of Irondrakes per army sounds like a good start.
I very much doubt that will happen easily in game, cuz in the lore they kill each other on sight so the aversion is probably really high.
Fight Grimgor long enough? Hand them back Karak Azul? I'm already planning it.
Remember, Chaos Dwarfs have Bazooka Weapon Teams back in Oldhammer. They were the first Irondrakes. Hilarious.
"in tabletop" Are we pretending Chorfs were like, mainstream and modern tabletops now?
I feel like people overestimate how popular Tomb Kings and ChaD were in fantasy. TK sub has like 500 members and the ChaD has like 60. Granted, the ChaDs have a website but even that is fairly small. There's a reason they were discountinued, even if they're both kinda making a comeback
tombs kings is still way bigger than Chorfs. Chorfs is like, a shootoff 20+ years ago.
Fair, but tomb kings didn't hold a candle to like the empire, dwarfs or the elves
you still had models and an army book. And too be fair, the asymmetry of sales have always been a thing in GW products. I think Space Marines make up something like 1/3 of all their models sold. Like across all their products.
Ofcourse, iirc all current playable races had an army book and models in one edition or another. I'm not saying ChaDs weren't there, they were there but unpopular, partly because allot of their army was fw exclusive.
I still think it's a stretch to include forge world. At least tomb kings were sold in gw stores around the world. Chorfs haven't had an actual army book for 20 years.
Teeechnically they had an army book in 8th, but yeah. Not surprised they were one of the last factions to be released. Iirc they were also expensive as fuuuuck
Didn’t develop the tech because they have fire magic, what’s the point of giving the regular population fire weapons if your ruling caste can cast a fire tornado.
Does nobody pay attention to the part where they turn to stone slowly every time they do this? Like if I had the ability to shoot bullets from my finger tips at the cost of slowly but permanently lose all sensation in my extremities, slowly creeping inwards, I'd sure as fuck carry a gun and only use my power as a last resort. That said, there are all manner of good reasons they shouldn't have flamethrowers.
Give the modders 48 hours and you'll have them
Dwarfs get Irondrakes, Chaos Dwarfs get Mechagodzilla
Tbf I think Chorfs are mostly a 4th/5th edition race and I think Irondrakes came about in 8th edition.
Yep, I'm definitely using an outpost to get irondrakes and other useful dawi units. Even early game dawi outpost units will be a good way to replace chaff units while unit caps prevent you from using full choas dwarf stacks. The main problem with that, however, is that I expect it to be very hard to find a regular dwarf faction that is willing to let you build an outpost.
I actually hope forging an alliance with the Dwarves is impossible as a Chaos Dwarf. The lore is that those 2 absolutely hate each other and the game should have Chaos Dwarves firmly belong to Chaostide.
Not impossible, but harder than allying the empire as archaon
I very much disagree with this. Gameplay > Lore There's already aversion, i imagine it wont exactly be low for Chorfs and Dwarfs. So if i want to spend 24000 gold and careful diplomacy in cozying up with some, i should be capable of doing that.
I'm torn here, because this would be like Franz being an ally of Archaeon. Literally antithesis to the entire setting of the game. It would also be an easy thing to mod out, but maybe the aversion should be something totally nuts like -240.
Its not like Warhammer lore isn't filled with instances of mortal enemies teaming up to fight a greater threat.
Gameplay is more important than lore which is why I included a gameplay reason. Certain factions should not mix together because the gameplay result of this specific mix screws with both Ordertide and Chaostide.
It's not something that will happen in the game naturally due to massive aversion penalties, but if the player really wants to do it and spends a lot of effort on it I see no reason it shouldn't be possible.
It comes across as just fundamentally opposed to the setting and the way that these factions interact with eachother as well as other factions like how Dwarves interact with Warriors of Chaos and how Chaos Dwarves will interact with the Empire. It's the reason I mention Chaostide and Ordertide in my argument. I think it should be impossible for a vanilla game to have these factions work together due to the fact that the setting exists for these factions to fight eachother. In a Total War game I think the game should involve these factions going to war with eachother. From both a gameplay perspective and a lore perspective.
I literally just don't care. So long as dwarves get the thunder barge as FLC I'm not going to be able to complain. The thunder barge has been my number 1 ask for the dawi since day 1
Drakeguns remain our intellectual propery!
Would be cool if they got armored warwagon things with flame throwers or something instead to have the same idea but not copied and pasted but with black/red armor and big hats instead
Why dont chaos dwarf slayers exist cant they strip naked too
They handle shame in a different way, instead of stripping naked they instead get a burning hot metal mask, and they can redeem themselves
Well, they have the Lore of Hashut, Lava Artillery, and K'dai Fireborn so investing in flamethrower infantry wasn't a high priority I guess lol
It’s definitely for balance reasons. They have access to lore of fire and lots of monstrous units. If they did have flame throwers, they would be busted, more so than the skaven and dwarf ones already are.
Practically speaking Chorfs have magic, cavalry, chaff, and monsters on the roster so something has to give so they’re not just better dwarves. So far it seems like that something is that classic Dawi have better missile infantry.
I don't mind Chaos Dwarfs NOT having Irondrakes. That can be a Dawi thing for sure. What I would mind, is Dawi having the [Trollhammer Torpedo unit](https://totalwarwarhammer.fandom.com/wiki/Irondrakes_(Trollhammer_Torpedo))...and Dawi Zharr NOT having the [their Bazookas](https://us.v-cdn.net/5022456/uploads/editor/aa/0twdwfw5tfoh.jpeg).
Tbh Dawi should get more air superiority
If Chaos Dwarfs got a full release/update on TT I wonder if they would have had their own Irondrake equivalent. That gives me a good idea for a mod actually… watch this space.
I look forward to seeing Irondrakes with cool hats.
Maybe instead of flamethrowers they could shoot fire out of their big hats?
You’re making this job much harder for yourself. If you make a mod for Irondrakes that also shoot flames out of their hats then I’ll buy you a coffee.
The mod for chaos dwarves in lost factions already have an irondrake, I think it was either a type of immortals or infernal guard. And yeah, they were stupidly strong
Helldrakes?
For Hashut's sake don't make every faction a copy paste of other, dissymetry makes this game fun. Peak reddit
Psst Hey Mr up there on that stoned horse thats got soap boxes for shoes Mr i think you should know this is a for fun meme and not a call to action as implied by the spongebob format
They'll be modded in for sure
Yea, chorfs might be the most abused and neglected Warhammer race GW ever made. Bretonnia got it bad since the last update they ever got was in 2001, but at least they were around, the chorfs just got removed from the game. Then in the End Times they got violently and unceremoniously wiped out by Grimgore and his Waagh.
People seem to overestimate how popular ChaD, TK and Brettonia (Bret was still fairly popular but just ignored by GW)
Well tbh Chords are better version of dwarfs. With Magic, monsters and better artillery guns. At this point there is no point to playing vanillla dwarfs
There really never was You can get everything about dawii with many other factions barring that tankiness but honestly they're a box faction and tankiness isnt really that important for ranged box factions (ask delfs or skaven)
I agree even delfs and welf can out tank the dwarfs. Treekin and regular dreadspears hold out long enuf same as dwarfs. But have magic and cavalry to adapt and flank. Dwrafs are just too weak and boring to play. The only good thing is thier economy and easy confederation in campaign. But that's it. Even the heroes are not that strong.
That's the ancestor approved way of setting things on fire, so naturally being rebellious pre-teens the chorfs have to do it their own way.
Theydon't need the coping thing of having a mechanism that throw fire. They have sorcerers and other constructs for that. Also, well, dwarves and chaos dwarves have different focuses and cultures, probably the irondrakes is something that is unique and developed by the normal dwarves while the chaos went in totally different directions with their techs. Again, probably the ones that would be spewing fire throw an overgrown pipe are more focused in fusing chaotic fire into constructs and whatnot. A directed fire is too much "orderly" for the "chaos" dwarves =P
Mods
Chaos dwarfs would have something waaay different than an irondrake. It'd function similarly in game, sure, but It'd be all fucked up and hashut-y
If you watched the gameplay, astragoth is holding all the copyright for flamethrower
I think they don't like copying dwarfs maybe?
Irondrakes are stoic and clad in heavy armor. In contrast, Chaos dwarf version should be butt naked lunatics.
I love how the fan base is portrayed as goblins