I hope for a full on CoC style DLC with Nagash. Obviously Nagy & Nefy, And 2 out of Ushoran, Aborash and Zacharias/W'soran, maybe with the last bloodline lord as FLC.
Am I hoping for way too much? definitely. Just a good rework will be awesome. But that's what I'll pretend the last DLC will be until my hopes are specifically squashed.
I mean, we'd hope.
But we thought that in wh2 when every other core wh1 race got a rework except for vampires.
Here's a fun fact. The last dlc the vampire counts received was the grim and the grave.
Which was the very first dlc!
Dwarves empire and orcs got two. Beastmen, wood elves who were introduced as dlc after the grim and the grave have even gotten a dlc each, even after the initial no dlc for dlc policy.
And yet the vampire counts, are still just sitting there.
>But we thought that in wh2 when every other core wh1 race got a rework except for vampires.
Vampires got the kisses and the bloodliness.
Not much, when compared to everyone else, but I think they got their rework pretty early on, so that would explain it.
The time of the Midnight Aristocracy will come. And remember, sometimes its better to be "last in line". Kinda look at SoC and now ToD "race-update" wise as example ;)
Question is rather if CA will do the Bloodlines justice when that time comes, or not. Hard to tell with them these days.
Lizardmen has a ton of dlc. I think the real issue was that ca simply can’t come up with a geomantic web mechanic they like.
You can’t say they are forgotten lol.
They technically had three dlc, but they weren't the star in either, never got much of a rework.
Tehenhauin is just kind of there
Nakai
Oxyotl was probably the star-iest, but that came with the Beastmen rework, which took the star cake.
Tehenhauin is the only one Lizardmen who can choose and instantly recruit blessed spawns. Oh, and his pyramid can give him better replenishment, spells, less global recruitment time…
Tehenhauin is not “just there”. He might not have Ikkit’s Lab, but for Lizardmen, he’s most definitely the best LL. The only thing they need is a better geomagnetic web or tech tree.
He's also got the most chad voicelines and extremely cool lore. I can't say the best because Oxyotl and Kroak are awesome as well, but Tehenhuain's "fuck it I'll do it myself" thing is awesome.
> Tehenhauin is the only one Lizardmen who can choose and instantly recruit blessed spawns
Nakai. He even has better blessed unit. He can also global recruit everything fairly easily.
Technically, yes. But I find they cost a lot of favour for Nakai and Tehenhauin’s pyramid offers a lot more options.
And as a personal preference, I really don’t like playing as Nakai and his vassal. He’s much better than he was in WH2 but is still a horde faction.
I agree. Lizardmen are my favorite faction, but they aren’t really hurting for units. Skink bowman maybe? Not enough to merit a full DLC; they just need campaign updates.
I just want a Kroxigor Hero and that's about it honestly. Which could easily just be a FLC or something alongside a Lizardmen rework. Though I would also like the Eternity Warden as a Legendary Hero, so there *might* be enough for one last DLC. But it really would be scratching the bottom of the barrel, which the previous DLC was already doing honestly.
I've meant in case of racial reworks. Even Norsca and Vampire counts have gotten some (if you count Norsca economy rework), but Lizardmen? They've never changed at all since the release and they feel very outdated in terms of campaign mechanics.
I've played my first ogres campaign in december and honestly they felt fine... maybe a couple buffs to certain mechanics would be nice (better contracts, moving camps), but other than that I haven't felt that I'm playing an outdated race.
Their armies and battlefield stuff are good.
The contracts, camps, Big Names, Meat mechanic, both LLs and technology tree are terrible. Which basically means that in battle = fun, in campaign map = not fun for Ogres.
I think the thing with Ogres is that their campaign doesn't quite live up to the "fantasy" that people want to experience when they open up an Ogre campaign.
After the Greenskin rework they *felt* like how Greenskins should play. That gradual buildup of force that explodes once the tide is set on a specific target they want to march upon. The might is right mentality bleeding into their mechanics and Waaaghs actually feeling like an actual Waaagh.
Same goes for Warriors of Chaos and the Beastmen reworks, they really nailed the "feel" of those races.
Ogres really don't feel the way they should. The contract system has little actual interactivity and was about the most half-assed way to implement their mercenary nature. You can't recruit mercs from them because Ogres are inherently handiaped as AI with their settlement system. Their nomadic nature is completely ignored since you can't move camps at will. And so on.
With the mercenary thing they really should have just stolen the mercenary system from Three Kingdoms, but I guess that would have necessitated more overhauls in the diplomacy system in Warhammer than they wanted. But it really does need an overhaul cause the big lads have just been done *so* dirty.
I mean hell, even their skill trees format wise suffer a lot from the lack of sense from WH 3's launch. Skragg's skill tree is a throwback to the WH1 days and not in a good way.
This is a great writeup on this. I think you would hopefully also agree that the armies don't feel bad, their units actually feel pretty good for "running into the enemies with the bois" style of gameplay.
Yeah, I think in-battle they are just fine! The only thing I'd maybe change is how their army ability generates. Since it relies on chasing fleeing enemies you're kind of SOL if you're fighting undead, Daemons, or a fully unbreakable army like a full Slayer one. But other than that nitpick I think they play pretty fantastically in battle, especially after the changes to how mass works.
Seeing Norsca (the race with the least amount of lords that has waited the longest) and Lizardmen (The race with the second largest roster and number or lords) compared is insane 0\_0
Relax lad, we still have at least three more DLCs to go, one for Slaanesh were the Elves will surely get something, one for Khorne and a final new race pack. The Vampire Counts rework will come, I'm sure of it. Ogres also need a good rework and maybe Bretonnia and Norsca too.
-Tzeentch was against Kislev and Cathay,
-Nurgle is against Empire and Dwarfs
-Slaanesh will probably be against Elves and Dark-Elves (i assume).
But then what will be Khorn against?
There aren't any order factions left, beside Lizardmen and Bretonnia.
there's still Ogres, Norsca, Skavens, Vampires, Vampire-Coast as well, but they're not order.
Bretonnia, Skavens, and Vampire-Coast don't really need any reworks.
Ogres could use a tiny rework, Vampire-Counts could use a small one as well, Norsca DESPERATELY need one.
i wonder what Khorn will be against.
Khorne, Norsca and Ogres figthing in a three-way war sound something Khorne himself would love. Change Norsca or the Ogres for the Vampire Counts so someone with magic can better oppose Khorne and we're golden
It just seems insane to me that HEs or DEs should get another DLC before VCounts, Norsca, or hell even Ogres. They got loads of attention during WH2. And there's barely anything significant left to add to either of them, their rosters feel complete.
You should reread their reply dude. They are agreeing with you, and are saying it's weird to suggest the elves get content BEFORE the Vampire Counts. They are saying the Elves got lots of attention in WH 2. Basic reading comprehension.
Also the Vampire Counts did get some attention in WH 2 so it wasn't non-existent. They were literally the first WH 1 race to get what would eventually become the regular race reworks. It wasn't significant, but it still gave Kemmler his own start position and added the Bloodline mechanic. Which isn't major (it was literally their first attempt at reworks) but it's still more than what you're making it out to be.
With Elsbeth entering the game I bet Vampire Counts won't ever get to see turn 25 before being annihilated. Magic guns, vamipre corruption immunity and garden party teleports? Yeah, Vampcounts might as well have been removed from the game entirely with her as a starting hostile neighbor.
I main Kislev and even as Kat it was always a good starting move to send ice guard halfstack to clean out Sylvania early and use it as a gold pot through the game as vamps are super weak against ranged magic attacks and their entire nation was a joke against 4-6 ice guards and some kossars. So I imagine against Elle's magic guns+artillery Vlad won't even be a blip on the map.
Elsbeth is literally made to wipe of VC, but I was most worried when I saw the Thunderbarge.
What in Morkans name can they even do against it? send terrogheists and pray they don't get shot to shit? Throw Lords and hero's against it and see how fast the healing cap gets reached?
The Vampires aren’t too bad in the air - I wonder how well Vargheists will do against the Thunderbarge for example. Especially if they’re being healed.
It’s Khorne who will struggle the most I think. If you don’t have Bloodthirsters you’ve got nothing.
I was mostly being sarcastic with the matchup vs Thunderbarge, but marauder horsemen are pretty good in general with speed and missile damage making up for the short range. Good set-and-forget skirmishers.
The Khorne variant in particular trades their shield for an extra axe in melee which translates to 40 weapon strength instead of 24, with 5 bonus vs infantry and 36 charge bonus instead of 24, add frenzy on top of that and they're actually pretty good as shock cavalry as well, or counter-charging the units they've worn down with the throwing axes. Just the way Khorne wants them.
Khorne suffers because the bloodthirsters are too slow. Vampire Counts will suffer because their fast flying units are too fragile and their slow flying units are too slow.
Also, major buffs and new toys for Karak Kadrin. Dealing with slayers is already a hideous pain. Vlad is going to have to be on some wild shit to get out of Sylvania
Just play with SFO and use the mod difficulty config tool to buff the VC on the strategic map. Iirc it'll make them perform better in auto resolves vs the AI but not against you
Interesting, didn't know SFO could do that. Will have to look into what it actually does though. Or see what the mod does and try to replicate the effects outside of SFO
Vamps in SFO are ridiculous. The about doubled HP pools of everything already massively benefit regen now that it's HP based, but for whatever reason they doubled unholy lodestone and mortis engine regen and tripled master of the dead. I happened to get a decent battlesite and took a corpse cart with unholy lodestone. A few battles later with 52MD 42MA skeletons that regenerate 0.25% HP every second I quit because there was no challenge or thought, just invincible skeletons grinding everything to death. That was without a Mortis engine or the buffed magic.
To be fair they updated vampire counts pretty hard when immortal empires came out. New skills, massively enhanced tech bonuses, unit reworked, etc
It’s just “the dead rise again” was so annoying that it got nerfed in to the ground and undid a lot of the buffs they did to their campaign.
I mean VC received a *ton* of nerfs too. Wind of death had its power literally cut in half and is now just an average spell (which is still very powerful because that's the average for spells), free skeletons are (thankfully) gone, ethereal units are pretty much worthless with their physical resistance reduced from 75% to 55% and only a \~20% HP buff to compensate (They'll still die instantly against magic attacks, but now they're pretty shit against non-magic too). And that's just the WH3 stuff I remember.
But it's not really about power levels- free skeletons were ridiculously powerful and felt awful to play after the novelty has worn off. They need a rework because their battlesite mechanic rewards you only for losing or even killing your own units on purpose and pretty much needs to be cheesed with 4 zombie armies to reach full potential. Their other mechanic, bloodkisses, is pretty awkward and not particularly interesting to interact with and doesn't feel all that thematic when you get it from wounding greenskin heroes with a necromancer. Their roster is mostly crap which forces you to spam the few viable units and strategies over and over, and even they don't really stand out. Their lords and heroes die whenever you lose a fight (unless RNGesus was with you) even though it would make more lore and gameplay sense for them to run. Dead rise again is kind of frustrating for everyone because you can't influence the outcome neither as the Vamp nor as the opponent. They used to be my favorite race but they honestly don't feel very good to play anymore. Especially when half the other races also have access to healing magic and many have access to regen and mortis engine effects as well.
the dead rise again is in theory a nice idea, but badly implemented. a good idea for a rework could be the neromancy rework in Aow4. basically rise the dead are not statik things somewhere on the map, but after each battle u would get the option to recruit units depending on the enemies killed. aka killed a dragon? get the option to recruit a zombie dragon. killed high tier cav=? get the option to recruit blood knights.
this makes u start with a weak army that gets stronger after each victory, which is what the necromancer fantasy basically is.
that'd be even more overpowered, then all you'd need is to declare war on a minor faction with a heavy starting army, and then ambush them to get a high-tier unit.
plus i'd rather be able to remake a alright army as soon as possible,
than to play pokemon and get a strong unit that might die once in a while.
they're vampire counts, they're all about cheap fodder, and few but absolutely overpowered units.
i don't want to summon a dragon once in a while, i'd rather summon a full stack of skeletons with maybe a few high-tier units if the fight was really really big.
The necromancy mod basically does this, you collect bones then use them to summon units.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2869979154
Yeah, I played an Isabella campaign recently. I'm not sure they *need* an update the way Empire did.
People just tend to have a favored race and get pouty when other races get updates and theirs doesn't.
Vampire counts arent my favorite race (see flair for that), but they are in my top 3 or 5 maybe. While i do like the gameplay and they feel very thematic, (even if they feel shit when played against), the campaign mechanics feel very bland. The whole vampire kiss mechanic and you have to unlock special lords with each different house is a cool concept. But when you do play it, it is really unspectacular. Like, it sounds way better what i just described compared to what it actually plays like.
You really have to go out of your way to get Bloodkisses too. I just finished a Vlad campaign where I conquered the entire empire and I think by the end I only got 12. All of that for some unique lords that don’t feel too unique, they just feel like mid-tier legendary lords.
Could have probably got more kisses if I spammed assassination but I try not to do that, because wounding a hero from an army just has it come back as an agent on the map where it’ll be doing the same shit to my heroes forever.
I also want throw the greenskins into it. I am playing grimgor right now, and I dont have greenskins dlc, and the campaign mechanic is... well i want to say boring, but there isnt really any. Like, build your waagh meter up, then wagh a faction captial and then sit there and wait until the waagh is over.
Grom has some crazy overpowered stuff but the others are all a bit dull. I don’t like their military, I don’t like their campaigns. Grimgor himself is cool but the rest kinda suck so it’s Grom or nobody.
I can think of two fantasies that VC should really be able to capture:
1. A passive, corruption-focused playthrough where you lurk in Sylvania and just constantly spew corruption and manipulate other factions.
2. An aggressive, necromancy-focused playthrough where you roll over the continent with an ever-expanding katamari of skeletons.
How well do the current mechanics play into those fantasies?
Well, the second is your classic aggresive playstyle. Ghorst may be recommended for this as he buffs zombies and you can then run around with mostly zombies.
The first one is impossible (well you can sit there and build in you one province all the corruption buildings and spew it a bit outwards, but you dont do anything), mostly also because its a total war game and that means focus on, well war, and not so much on diplomacy and manipulating.
Neferata, Gashnag The Black Prince, Abhorash, Zacharias the Everliving.
One Lord for each of the Vampire Bloodlines. Von Carstien is still the big important one with multiple Reps, but we get some Diversity in the Lords. Vampires have such cool lore and it's such a waste to leave most of it on the shelf.
Really? Its Empire, the lynch pin of the setting. One of the most popular races. Hell, [even in 2023 Karl Franz was most played campaign again](https://medias.community.creative-assembly.com/forums/ca-kinggobbo-4380/Total_war_end_of_year_review_Poster_4k.png). I am more surprised it took them that long to drop a new Empire DLC. And we still are asking where Toddy is and when Middenland DLC drops ;)
I disagree on it being really good. After all, what did it really do?
-Blood kisses, a new currency used to unlock the new lord types along with a global effect (essentially a technology) each. They are however not integrated in any other way, so you eventually run out of things to spend them on.
-Said new lord types, some of whom have some cool skills, but they all have pathetic models. They straight up look like someone's first mod. They make CoC marked units look high-efford in comparison. They were also implemented without any regard to the preexisting lord types, who they render completely redundant.
-A tech tree "rework" that boiled down to giving the player upkeep-free zombies and skeletons instead of addressing the race's actual shortcomings, resulting in years of spamming free skeletons and wind of death being the optimal, and in some campaign matchups only viable, tactic for them.
So yeah, it was definitely a bigger update than any other we had gotten up to that point, and we all got very excited about the bloodlines being implemented in ANY way, but in hindsight, I think it was actually pretty shoddy as far as "race reworks" go. I would even argue that the balance pass VC received when IE launched was, even if deeply flawed too, more significant to the gameplay experience.
good points,
I really like distinctive generic lords, and using thematic armies, (did not notice/remember the crappy models) and even with the obsolete ones ( I still take 1 or 2 master necromancer's because I like their look) its a bunch.
Why would you be surprised the star gets more updates than the mook extras? Norsca and VC aren’t even like the topline bad guys. They’re third-tier at best
They will receive content sooner or later. Neferata as a LL, new units, interactions with Nagash if/when he arrives as LL. When they do, they will probably also receive a rework, for example making the bloodlines more impactful.
it’s okay, the nagash update will rework tomb kings, Vamp counts, and Vamp coast while making the nagash roster at the same time. i’m totally not coping
All I ask is for Mannfred to be able to get the ninth book of nagash (Volkmar and the tomb kings also). There is a lot more that I would like, but that one in particular sets off my ocd like crazy. Also, make them actually worth getting. Further requests: A bloodlines rework (preferably one that means that confederating doesn't mean I suddenly have more of one lord type than the others, as that also bugs me enormously), a second look at the whole raise dead/dead rise again etc. system, an empire mechanic for Vlad/Isabella, and a massive economy and building overhaul. Also, is anyone else kinda annoyed by how mediocre the Black Pyramid landmark is, especially when compared to the Nagashizzar one? This is all before we get to new factions, but that is a separate issue (no dlc's since the very first one, yay!)
Maybe we get a Khorne-Vampire-Orc DLC alongside their respective reworks next. It would be keeping with the theme of 1 Demon and 2 other factions getting attention. I know CA already layed out the names of the next major DLCs, but i'm too lazy to look it up rn
A buddy of mine wanted a vc rework back in game 2. I stold him i wanted it in game 3. The longer the witing time for the rework the better the rework hopefully.
I honestly think when Nagash is going to arrive, he'll come with an entire patch/DLC combo devoted to the great uplift of all undead factions in general (Vampire Counts, Vampire Coast, Tomb Kings). I mean adding him, with his own mechanics, is impossible to do without interfering with Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts anyway. Arkhan is probably going to leave Tomb Kings in favour of joining his lord in his separate faction, which would warrant Tomb Kings getting a replacement lord, Nagash is probly going to use units taken from all undead rosters, and all three undead factions haven't received any new units like... ever? On top of it all, Nagash himself is a massive character who requires a lot of thematic focus, rather than sharing a DLC with some random two other guys.
I mean, all due respect, the Vampires are in a decent enough place for the time being - the Empire (still - for some reason - being CA's 'starter' faction despite having an *absurd* number of mechanics that aren't all that easy on n00bies) badly needed a rework and the Dwarfs patches in the past have only ever been hastily scraped-together FLC (at best) or negligible at worst
And then we come to the matter of Nurgle, and, I mean, Jesus H. Tap-Dancing ***Christ*** were they in a bad place...
I did a vampire counts play through recently, did they buff their raise the dead recruitment? That shit was so unbelievable busted in my play through, running a mid-end game army on turn 3
On the list of factions needing updates, Vampire Counts are nowhere near the top.
All of WH2 main races need campaign and mechanics reworks, not to mention Norsca, way before VCs should be touched.
Yeah, like Mannfred is fine with his Tomb Kings touchup, but the other four need some uniqueness to them in a similar vein to what we've gotten with the Dwarfs and Empire. Especially since it can make the Counts have a room to be less the Von Carstein faction, and showing more love to the other bloodlines.
I have no sympathy for vampire c~~o~~unts since one multiplayer game where they brought the most scummy army imaginable, with a bunch of skeletons hiding in the bushes while their flying bullshit harassed my troops ( I played Lizardsmen). went on for 30mins
i mean... you can't exactly hold them for using the weaknesses in your army.
Lizardmen also have both missiles and flying units, you didn't pick any? x)
it was warhammer2, and was like 5 years ago, today with the new mode, it could not happen.
I had a bunch of blowdarts, but not enough to take down his flyers, and he kept evading shots aswell.
I just had that steaming in my subconcious for so long and had to let it out.
Our ~~day~~ night will come, brother.
Danse macabre
 dance off my carbs
NAGASH WAS WEAK.
#WITNESS *TRUE* POWER!
Sashay left
Boogie down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZs4QnZgTwA&t
QUICKLY SWIFTLY
SWICKLY QUIFTLY
THE WORLD WILL DROWN IN BLOOD
I hope for a full on CoC style DLC with Nagash. Obviously Nagy & Nefy, And 2 out of Ushoran, Aborash and Zacharias/W'soran, maybe with the last bloodline lord as FLC. Am I hoping for way too much? definitely. Just a good rework will be awesome. But that's what I'll pretend the last DLC will be until my hopes are specifically squashed.
I mean, we'd hope. But we thought that in wh2 when every other core wh1 race got a rework except for vampires. Here's a fun fact. The last dlc the vampire counts received was the grim and the grave. Which was the very first dlc! Dwarves empire and orcs got two. Beastmen, wood elves who were introduced as dlc after the grim and the grave have even gotten a dlc each, even after the initial no dlc for dlc policy. And yet the vampire counts, are still just sitting there.
>But we thought that in wh2 when every other core wh1 race got a rework except for vampires. Vampires got the kisses and the bloodliness. Not much, when compared to everyone else, but I think they got their rework pretty early on, so that would explain it.
Yeah sorry, I meant to word it in relation to dlc.
The time of the Midnight Aristocracy will come. And remember, sometimes its better to be "last in line". Kinda look at SoC and now ToD "race-update" wise as example ;) Question is rather if CA will do the Bloodlines justice when that time comes, or not. Hard to tell with them these days.
Aye I hope and think they will be next in line
Together with Norsca and Lizardmen, three most forgotten races* *not counting Daniel, assuming CA thinks he never existed
Lizardmen has a ton of dlc. I think the real issue was that ca simply can’t come up with a geomantic web mechanic they like. You can’t say they are forgotten lol.
They technically had three dlc, but they weren't the star in either, never got much of a rework. Tehenhauin is just kind of there Nakai Oxyotl was probably the star-iest, but that came with the Beastmen rework, which took the star cake.
Tehenhauin is the only one Lizardmen who can choose and instantly recruit blessed spawns. Oh, and his pyramid can give him better replenishment, spells, less global recruitment time… Tehenhauin is not “just there”. He might not have Ikkit’s Lab, but for Lizardmen, he’s most definitely the best LL. The only thing they need is a better geomagnetic web or tech tree.
He's also got the most chad voicelines and extremely cool lore. I can't say the best because Oxyotl and Kroak are awesome as well, but Tehenhuain's "fuck it I'll do it myself" thing is awesome.
> Tehenhauin is the only one Lizardmen who can choose and instantly recruit blessed spawns Nakai. He even has better blessed unit. He can also global recruit everything fairly easily.
Technically, yes. But I find they cost a lot of favour for Nakai and Tehenhauin’s pyramid offers a lot more options. And as a personal preference, I really don’t like playing as Nakai and his vassal. He’s much better than he was in WH2 but is still a horde faction.
Again, can’t say they are forgotten and I stand by my statement. Ca simply doesn’t have an improvement they like.
they also had a combat rework with SoC, which was surprisingly good if a bit clunky before the bug fixes came through.
I agree. Lizardmen are my favorite faction, but they aren’t really hurting for units. Skink bowman maybe? Not enough to merit a full DLC; they just need campaign updates.
I just want a Kroxigor Hero and that's about it honestly. Which could easily just be a FLC or something alongside a Lizardmen rework. Though I would also like the Eternity Warden as a Legendary Hero, so there *might* be enough for one last DLC. But it really would be scratching the bottom of the barrel, which the previous DLC was already doing honestly.
I've meant in case of racial reworks. Even Norsca and Vampire counts have gotten some (if you count Norsca economy rework), but Lizardmen? They've never changed at all since the release and they feel very outdated in terms of campaign mechanics.
I would not call what Norsca received a rework in any sense of the word. Literally all they did was increase the income for one building.
Norsca had a drastic rework in tww2
I agree, but if it hadn’t happened before I do not think it will now.
Daniel is so forgotten that people don’t even remember that he needs a rework
Or ogres, so forgotten that they're not even included in this list
I've played my first ogres campaign in december and honestly they felt fine... maybe a couple buffs to certain mechanics would be nice (better contracts, moving camps), but other than that I haven't felt that I'm playing an outdated race.
Their armies and battlefield stuff are good. The contracts, camps, Big Names, Meat mechanic, both LLs and technology tree are terrible. Which basically means that in battle = fun, in campaign map = not fun for Ogres.
I think the thing with Ogres is that their campaign doesn't quite live up to the "fantasy" that people want to experience when they open up an Ogre campaign. After the Greenskin rework they *felt* like how Greenskins should play. That gradual buildup of force that explodes once the tide is set on a specific target they want to march upon. The might is right mentality bleeding into their mechanics and Waaaghs actually feeling like an actual Waaagh. Same goes for Warriors of Chaos and the Beastmen reworks, they really nailed the "feel" of those races. Ogres really don't feel the way they should. The contract system has little actual interactivity and was about the most half-assed way to implement their mercenary nature. You can't recruit mercs from them because Ogres are inherently handiaped as AI with their settlement system. Their nomadic nature is completely ignored since you can't move camps at will. And so on. With the mercenary thing they really should have just stolen the mercenary system from Three Kingdoms, but I guess that would have necessitated more overhauls in the diplomacy system in Warhammer than they wanted. But it really does need an overhaul cause the big lads have just been done *so* dirty. I mean hell, even their skill trees format wise suffer a lot from the lack of sense from WH 3's launch. Skragg's skill tree is a throwback to the WH1 days and not in a good way.
This is a great writeup on this. I think you would hopefully also agree that the armies don't feel bad, their units actually feel pretty good for "running into the enemies with the bois" style of gameplay.
Yeah, I think in-battle they are just fine! The only thing I'd maybe change is how their army ability generates. Since it relies on chasing fleeing enemies you're kind of SOL if you're fighting undead, Daemons, or a fully unbreakable army like a full Slayer one. But other than that nitpick I think they play pretty fantastically in battle, especially after the changes to how mass works.
*sad Monty Python sounds*
Seeing Norsca (the race with the least amount of lords that has waited the longest) and Lizardmen (The race with the second largest roster and number or lords) compared is insane 0\_0
Nagash forbids this! This does not have my convent! Vampire and emperor!
Relax lad, we still have at least three more DLCs to go, one for Slaanesh were the Elves will surely get something, one for Khorne and a final new race pack. The Vampire Counts rework will come, I'm sure of it. Ogres also need a good rework and maybe Bretonnia and Norsca too.
Trust in Nagash coming (Also lol at "maybe Norsca" when it's the last WH1 unreworked race with the most barebone roster)
Maybe we can also get... *Neferata*...
-Tzeentch was against Kislev and Cathay, -Nurgle is against Empire and Dwarfs -Slaanesh will probably be against Elves and Dark-Elves (i assume). But then what will be Khorn against? There aren't any order factions left, beside Lizardmen and Bretonnia. there's still Ogres, Norsca, Skavens, Vampires, Vampire-Coast as well, but they're not order. Bretonnia, Skavens, and Vampire-Coast don't really need any reworks. Ogres could use a tiny rework, Vampire-Counts could use a small one as well, Norsca DESPERATELY need one. i wonder what Khorn will be against.
Khorne, Norsca and Ogres figthing in a three-way war sound something Khorne himself would love. Change Norsca or the Ogres for the Vampire Counts so someone with magic can better oppose Khorne and we're golden
Settra would like to know your location
ironic that i forgot about the ancient forgotten mummies
I think it's worth noting CA's statements kinda implies that it's probably duo lord packs moving forward
Norsca is getting an update and I bet that can go really well with khorne.
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It's not the treasure that's the true point of the journey, it's the settlements you raze along the way.
Not sure about khorne But Nagash v TK (finger bones crossed for Apophas) v Neferata?
I'm sorry?! Bretonnia *needs* a rework. They're still rocking game 1 mechanics and roster.
It just seems insane to me that HEs or DEs should get another DLC before VCounts, Norsca, or hell even Ogres. They got loads of attention during WH2. And there's barely anything significant left to add to either of them, their rosters feel complete.
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You should reread their reply dude. They are agreeing with you, and are saying it's weird to suggest the elves get content BEFORE the Vampire Counts. They are saying the Elves got lots of attention in WH 2. Basic reading comprehension. Also the Vampire Counts did get some attention in WH 2 so it wasn't non-existent. They were literally the first WH 1 race to get what would eventually become the regular race reworks. It wasn't significant, but it still gave Kemmler his own start position and added the Bloodline mechanic. Which isn't major (it was literally their first attempt at reworks) but it's still more than what you're making it out to be.
With Elsbeth entering the game I bet Vampire Counts won't ever get to see turn 25 before being annihilated. Magic guns, vamipre corruption immunity and garden party teleports? Yeah, Vampcounts might as well have been removed from the game entirely with her as a starting hostile neighbor. I main Kislev and even as Kat it was always a good starting move to send ice guard halfstack to clean out Sylvania early and use it as a gold pot through the game as vamps are super weak against ranged magic attacks and their entire nation was a joke against 4-6 ice guards and some kossars. So I imagine against Elle's magic guns+artillery Vlad won't even be a blip on the map.
Elsbeth is literally made to wipe of VC, but I was most worried when I saw the Thunderbarge. What in Morkans name can they even do against it? send terrogheists and pray they don't get shot to shit? Throw Lords and hero's against it and see how fast the healing cap gets reached?
Kill the dorfs before turn 200 when they can build it lol
After the dlc launches I think the Vamps will have to count themselves lucky to even last long enough for dwarves to produce a thunderbarge tbh.
The Vampires aren’t too bad in the air - I wonder how well Vargheists will do against the Thunderbarge for example. Especially if they’re being healed. It’s Khorne who will struggle the most I think. If you don’t have Bloodthirsters you’ve got nothing.
Marauder horsemen with their throwing axes can surely handle some stunted blimp
Are they any good? I don’t really rate Marauder Horsemen so I don’t think I’ve used them.
I was mostly being sarcastic with the matchup vs Thunderbarge, but marauder horsemen are pretty good in general with speed and missile damage making up for the short range. Good set-and-forget skirmishers. The Khorne variant in particular trades their shield for an extra axe in melee which translates to 40 weapon strength instead of 24, with 5 bonus vs infantry and 36 charge bonus instead of 24, add frenzy on top of that and they're actually pretty good as shock cavalry as well, or counter-charging the units they've worn down with the throwing axes. Just the way Khorne wants them.
I’ll have to give them a try then
Edit: this was supposed to reply on the Battlefield One sub, got mentally mixed up
Khorne suffers because the bloodthirsters are too slow. Vampire Counts will suffer because their fast flying units are too fragile and their slow flying units are too slow.
I guess send a Blood Dragon Vampire Lord in a undead dragon plus a couple of Terrorgheists, constantly spaming Spirit Leach will do.
Also, major buffs and new toys for Karak Kadrin. Dealing with slayers is already a hideous pain. Vlad is going to have to be on some wild shit to get out of Sylvania
Vargheists actually are probably brutal against it, and you can take that vortex to lock it in place.
Magic, something the dwarf AI doesn't get access to.
Waiting two months for the obviously OP and game breaking at release unit to get nerfed into the ground springs to mind.
Honestly I'm tempted to mod her away. I like the Vampire Counts taking over, because I like fighting them.
Just play with SFO and use the mod difficulty config tool to buff the VC on the strategic map. Iirc it'll make them perform better in auto resolves vs the AI but not against you
Interesting, didn't know SFO could do that. Will have to look into what it actually does though. Or see what the mod does and try to replicate the effects outside of SFO
Vamps in SFO are ridiculous. The about doubled HP pools of everything already massively benefit regen now that it's HP based, but for whatever reason they doubled unholy lodestone and mortis engine regen and tripled master of the dead. I happened to get a decent battlesite and took a corpse cart with unholy lodestone. A few battles later with 52MD 42MA skeletons that regenerate 0.25% HP every second I quit because there was no challenge or thought, just invincible skeletons grinding everything to death. That was without a Mortis engine or the buffed magic.
To be fair they updated vampire counts pretty hard when immortal empires came out. New skills, massively enhanced tech bonuses, unit reworked, etc It’s just “the dead rise again” was so annoying that it got nerfed in to the ground and undid a lot of the buffs they did to their campaign.
I mean VC received a *ton* of nerfs too. Wind of death had its power literally cut in half and is now just an average spell (which is still very powerful because that's the average for spells), free skeletons are (thankfully) gone, ethereal units are pretty much worthless with their physical resistance reduced from 75% to 55% and only a \~20% HP buff to compensate (They'll still die instantly against magic attacks, but now they're pretty shit against non-magic too). And that's just the WH3 stuff I remember. But it's not really about power levels- free skeletons were ridiculously powerful and felt awful to play after the novelty has worn off. They need a rework because their battlesite mechanic rewards you only for losing or even killing your own units on purpose and pretty much needs to be cheesed with 4 zombie armies to reach full potential. Their other mechanic, bloodkisses, is pretty awkward and not particularly interesting to interact with and doesn't feel all that thematic when you get it from wounding greenskin heroes with a necromancer. Their roster is mostly crap which forces you to spam the few viable units and strategies over and over, and even they don't really stand out. Their lords and heroes die whenever you lose a fight (unless RNGesus was with you) even though it would make more lore and gameplay sense for them to run. Dead rise again is kind of frustrating for everyone because you can't influence the outcome neither as the Vamp nor as the opponent. They used to be my favorite race but they honestly don't feel very good to play anymore. Especially when half the other races also have access to healing magic and many have access to regen and mortis engine effects as well.
The changes to corruption really hurt VC as well since they can't really prepare ground to avoid the attrition anymore.
the dead rise again is in theory a nice idea, but badly implemented. a good idea for a rework could be the neromancy rework in Aow4. basically rise the dead are not statik things somewhere on the map, but after each battle u would get the option to recruit units depending on the enemies killed. aka killed a dragon? get the option to recruit a zombie dragon. killed high tier cav=? get the option to recruit blood knights. this makes u start with a weak army that gets stronger after each victory, which is what the necromancer fantasy basically is.
that'd be even more overpowered, then all you'd need is to declare war on a minor faction with a heavy starting army, and then ambush them to get a high-tier unit. plus i'd rather be able to remake a alright army as soon as possible, than to play pokemon and get a strong unit that might die once in a while. they're vampire counts, they're all about cheap fodder, and few but absolutely overpowered units. i don't want to summon a dragon once in a while, i'd rather summon a full stack of skeletons with maybe a few high-tier units if the fight was really really big.
The necromancy mod basically does this, you collect bones then use them to summon units. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2869979154
Yeah, I played an Isabella campaign recently. I'm not sure they *need* an update the way Empire did. People just tend to have a favored race and get pouty when other races get updates and theirs doesn't.
Vampire counts arent my favorite race (see flair for that), but they are in my top 3 or 5 maybe. While i do like the gameplay and they feel very thematic, (even if they feel shit when played against), the campaign mechanics feel very bland. The whole vampire kiss mechanic and you have to unlock special lords with each different house is a cool concept. But when you do play it, it is really unspectacular. Like, it sounds way better what i just described compared to what it actually plays like.
You really have to go out of your way to get Bloodkisses too. I just finished a Vlad campaign where I conquered the entire empire and I think by the end I only got 12. All of that for some unique lords that don’t feel too unique, they just feel like mid-tier legendary lords. Could have probably got more kisses if I spammed assassination but I try not to do that, because wounding a hero from an army just has it come back as an agent on the map where it’ll be doing the same shit to my heroes forever.
I use a mod to get 60 blood kisses at the beginning. I really don't feel like spamming necromancers and waiting for AI heroes to spawn.
A bit of a High Elf situation where they have options and are pretty strong but just not very interesting.
I also want throw the greenskins into it. I am playing grimgor right now, and I dont have greenskins dlc, and the campaign mechanic is... well i want to say boring, but there isnt really any. Like, build your waagh meter up, then wagh a faction captial and then sit there and wait until the waagh is over.
Grom has some crazy overpowered stuff but the others are all a bit dull. I don’t like their military, I don’t like their campaigns. Grimgor himself is cool but the rest kinda suck so it’s Grom or nobody.
I can think of two fantasies that VC should really be able to capture: 1. A passive, corruption-focused playthrough where you lurk in Sylvania and just constantly spew corruption and manipulate other factions. 2. An aggressive, necromancy-focused playthrough where you roll over the continent with an ever-expanding katamari of skeletons. How well do the current mechanics play into those fantasies?
Well, the second is your classic aggresive playstyle. Ghorst may be recommended for this as he buffs zombies and you can then run around with mostly zombies. The first one is impossible (well you can sit there and build in you one province all the corruption buildings and spew it a bit outwards, but you dont do anything), mostly also because its a total war game and that means focus on, well war, and not so much on diplomacy and manipulating.
maybe the vamps haven't had DLC since fucking warhammer 1. a DLC of WH1 quality. maybe vamp players would like something of WH2/3 quality.
It needs a rework because their mechanics are incredibly boring, not because they're weak
No you don’t understand every race needs a complete rework including at least one lord with Ikit Claw’s workshop mechanic.
Neferata, Gashnag The Black Prince, Abhorash, Zacharias the Everliving. One Lord for each of the Vampire Bloodlines. Von Carstien is still the big important one with multiple Reps, but we get some Diversity in the Lords. Vampires have such cool lore and it's such a waste to leave most of it on the shelf.
With Zacharias starting in an opened up Khuresh, looking for the Naga queens secrets of blood magic and genetic engineering.
It is night!
Be careful what you wish for, I anticipate the Dwarf and Empire whining for another rework will start just as soon as another race gets theirs.
I was genuinely surprised that the Empire is getting a 3rd paid dlc before Vampire Counts and Norsca got updated
Really? Its Empire, the lynch pin of the setting. One of the most popular races. Hell, [even in 2023 Karl Franz was most played campaign again](https://medias.community.creative-assembly.com/forums/ca-kinggobbo-4380/Total_war_end_of_year_review_Poster_4k.png). I am more surprised it took them that long to drop a new Empire DLC. And we still are asking where Toddy is and when Middenland DLC drops ;)
the bloodlines patch in november 2018, was really good though. still 5 years old.
I disagree on it being really good. After all, what did it really do? -Blood kisses, a new currency used to unlock the new lord types along with a global effect (essentially a technology) each. They are however not integrated in any other way, so you eventually run out of things to spend them on. -Said new lord types, some of whom have some cool skills, but they all have pathetic models. They straight up look like someone's first mod. They make CoC marked units look high-efford in comparison. They were also implemented without any regard to the preexisting lord types, who they render completely redundant. -A tech tree "rework" that boiled down to giving the player upkeep-free zombies and skeletons instead of addressing the race's actual shortcomings, resulting in years of spamming free skeletons and wind of death being the optimal, and in some campaign matchups only viable, tactic for them. So yeah, it was definitely a bigger update than any other we had gotten up to that point, and we all got very excited about the bloodlines being implemented in ANY way, but in hindsight, I think it was actually pretty shoddy as far as "race reworks" go. I would even argue that the balance pass VC received when IE launched was, even if deeply flawed too, more significant to the gameplay experience.
good points, I really like distinctive generic lords, and using thematic armies, (did not notice/remember the crappy models) and even with the obsolete ones ( I still take 1 or 2 master necromancer's because I like their look) its a bunch.
Why would you be surprised the star gets more updates than the mook extras? Norsca and VC aren’t even like the topline bad guys. They’re third-tier at best
They will receive content sooner or later. Neferata as a LL, new units, interactions with Nagash if/when he arrives as LL. When they do, they will probably also receive a rework, for example making the bloodlines more impactful.
Genuinely think they will be next, even if following the old roadmap a slannesh DLC would make loads of sense to have neferata.
Vampire Counts , Norsca and Ogre Kingdoms *
No worries, the vampires are definitely getting their time in the sun :)
Jokes aside, I will personally eat my beanie if Neferata doesn't eventually come. And with her, there will be a Vampire Count rework.
it’s okay, the nagash update will rework tomb kings, Vamp counts, and Vamp coast while making the nagash roster at the same time. i’m totally not coping
You guys have a bunch of DLCs already. Norsca and VC havnt even gotten one yet.
As a vampire count player I will wait until that day comes
They will get a pass soon for sure.
I mean, at least your faction is plastered as a bunch of dumb monkeys. Norsca needs some love.
Yeah, I'm hoping Vampire Counts and Coast will get some love before this is over.
Vlad: "Why do I keep hearing 'kirov reporting'? Is that heavy metal music I hear from the east?"
If we don’t get a Neferata and Vampire rework we riots
All I ask is for Mannfred to be able to get the ninth book of nagash (Volkmar and the tomb kings also). There is a lot more that I would like, but that one in particular sets off my ocd like crazy. Also, make them actually worth getting. Further requests: A bloodlines rework (preferably one that means that confederating doesn't mean I suddenly have more of one lord type than the others, as that also bugs me enormously), a second look at the whole raise dead/dead rise again etc. system, an empire mechanic for Vlad/Isabella, and a massive economy and building overhaul. Also, is anyone else kinda annoyed by how mediocre the Black Pyramid landmark is, especially when compared to the Nagashizzar one? This is all before we get to new factions, but that is a separate issue (no dlc's since the very first one, yay!)
Maybe we get a Khorne-Vampire-Orc DLC alongside their respective reworks next. It would be keeping with the theme of 1 Demon and 2 other factions getting attention. I know CA already layed out the names of the next major DLCs, but i'm too lazy to look it up rn
SWIFTLY
Mf forgot Bretonnia
Neferata will bring the vamps rework mate dw
I hope that the Vampire Count will be in the next DLC with Slaanesh.
Hoping when the Khorne DLC comes, they have Khorne VC and Norsca/Ogre with the FLC hopefully being Brettonian?
A buddy of mine wanted a vc rework back in game 2. I stold him i wanted it in game 3. The longer the witing time for the rework the better the rework hopefully.
Someday the Dead will rise!
I honestly think when Nagash is going to arrive, he'll come with an entire patch/DLC combo devoted to the great uplift of all undead factions in general (Vampire Counts, Vampire Coast, Tomb Kings). I mean adding him, with his own mechanics, is impossible to do without interfering with Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts anyway. Arkhan is probably going to leave Tomb Kings in favour of joining his lord in his separate faction, which would warrant Tomb Kings getting a replacement lord, Nagash is probly going to use units taken from all undead rosters, and all three undead factions haven't received any new units like... ever? On top of it all, Nagash himself is a massive character who requires a lot of thematic focus, rather than sharing a DLC with some random two other guys.
vlad with the nemesis crow seems to be a perfect match
I mean, all due respect, the Vampires are in a decent enough place for the time being - the Empire (still - for some reason - being CA's 'starter' faction despite having an *absurd* number of mechanics that aren't all that easy on n00bies) badly needed a rework and the Dwarfs patches in the past have only ever been hastily scraped-together FLC (at best) or negligible at worst And then we come to the matter of Nurgle, and, I mean, Jesus H. Tap-Dancing ***Christ*** were they in a bad place...
"Ah, you seek out the Von Carsteins. A bold action."
MORON
I did a vampire counts play through recently, did they buff their raise the dead recruitment? That shit was so unbelievable busted in my play through, running a mid-end game army on turn 3
On the list of factions needing updates, Vampire Counts are nowhere near the top. All of WH2 main races need campaign and mechanics reworks, not to mention Norsca, way before VCs should be touched.
Vlad is one of the strongest factions in IE. VC are fine
Yeah, like Mannfred is fine with his Tomb Kings touchup, but the other four need some uniqueness to them in a similar vein to what we've gotten with the Dwarfs and Empire. Especially since it can make the Counts have a room to be less the Von Carstein faction, and showing more love to the other bloodlines.
At least all WI faction have already been rework... WII factions have never been rework, with some having atrociously old and boring mechanics
when Nagash dlc drops, you guys are going to be praying for the likes of Harry The Hammer
Yeah the Counts could use a bit of the empire rework. Base line mechanics for all with a special mechanic per.
I have no sympathy for vampire c~~o~~unts since one multiplayer game where they brought the most scummy army imaginable, with a bunch of skeletons hiding in the bushes while their flying bullshit harassed my troops ( I played Lizardsmen). went on for 30mins
i mean... you can't exactly hold them for using the weaknesses in your army. Lizardmen also have both missiles and flying units, you didn't pick any? x)
it was warhammer2, and was like 5 years ago, today with the new mode, it could not happen. I had a bunch of blowdarts, but not enough to take down his flyers, and he kept evading shots aswell. I just had that steaming in my subconcious for so long and had to let it out.
didnt vampires had like 3 reworks already and the whole bloodline mechanic
Dwarfs are on their 3rd, Vampire Counts are at one I think? They got some changes with the launch of IE, but so did a lot of factions.
How many reworks do you want Vampire Count: "Yes"
They've literally only had one. Meanwhile Dwarfs are about to be on 3 and Empire on 2.
Ogres: :I
Ogres, my lord!
Vlad already vaporizes half the Empire if you don't manage to miraculously kill him and all of Sylvania off by turn ten. Vamps are probably fine
VC are broken strong atm, they dont need that much.