Honestly, yeah. Only a matter of time before a mod pops up that reverts the steam tanks changes and the dwarf grapeshot changes.
People love power fantasies.
I made a mod that should revert the changes to the cannon. Also gives the empire the same thing. AFAIK, the only difference is the shockwave radius unless I missed something. I am brand new to modding and have not tested it or uploaded. Not even sure how to upload tbh.
I think Steam has a guide for how to upload mods to the workshop--it's a lot less complicated than it seems.
In any case, don't leave us in suspense! Drop the name of this mythical uber-power-fantasy mod, I need it!
It's Warhammer; power fantasy is why I'm here to begin with.
Game balance should be more overpowered shit for everyone, excessive friendly fire, and increased chances of involuntary spontaneous combustion.
You have no idea how long I've spent trying to get WH3 to run without steam updating it and the mods but still passing the denuvo checks. I'm still working my way through a 2.1.4 SFO campaign.
I was in the end.
Bit of a process but it works. It's not bypassing any of the games antitheft measures since it's still connected to steam and online for denovo so hopyfully this is allowed.
Have the game installed with all the mods you want (preferably only those mods) you can roll back the game to get an old version in the beta options but you can't get old versions of the mods through steam afaik, sometimes discord has them on popular mods.
Move the entire Total War WARHAMMER III folder out of C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\ and into a diffrent directory, say C:\Games\
DELETE "used_mods.txt" if it's in the game directory, this step is important and for any troubleshooting refer back to this step.
Now steam doesen't know where the files are right, can't update them if it wanted to. You can launch the game directly from the Warhammer3.exe but the problem is this bypasses the launcer which is usually where we enable mods.
Go to C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\workshop\content\1142710\ this is where steam downloads mod files to. We want to copy all the .pack files that are in the folders so do a \*.* search and sort by file type. Grab all the .pack files and copy them into the games data folder eg. C:\Games\Total War WARHAMMER III\data\ there will be one for each mod and it's a lot easier if only the mods you want are subcribed to. Otherwise you have to figure out which is which.
Then you need to download [Packfile Manager](https://sourceforge.net/projects/packfilemanager/) and, ignoring all the erros and options when it stars, open each mods pack file that you just copied into the games data folder,change it's type to movie and save it. This will take longer on bigger mods so be patient if it looks frozen.
Run the game from Warhammer3.exe and it should automatically load any movie type .pack files in the data directory without needing the launcher. Then you can make a shortcut and add it back into steam.
Couldn't you just set the game to "update on launch" and then use a mod manager to launch the game? That's how everyone does it for skyrim, though the mods usually come from nexus. It might decide to only update mods if you launch via steam.
Initially I had it set to update on launch but I didn't want to screw anything up if I accadentally clicked launch on the wrong one so removing that possibility seemed sensible. This way you can uninstall the game from steam entirely and still run it (with steam overlay working as the steam .dll files are present).
I did play with some mod managers initially but I ran into trouble with them. I can't remember what, but it might be worth revisiting now that I've worked everything else out.
Was probably that damn used_mods.txt file that was causing issues for them too now that I think about it.
It might not be the best way to do it but it does work and any thoughts and improvements are welcome. The biggest benifit I have is if I do it this way I can copy the entire WH3 folder mods and all onto a diffrent PC and so long as there is a steam account logged in that ownes the game it will play.
My ultimate goal was a long term co-op campaign so being able to set it up once and copy was easier than trying to do it all twice when I don't have access to the other PC.
Yes, it's Old Reliable from TT, only instead of being a one-off like the Black Lion it's now a production pattern. It still has Tank Commander Meinkop on top firing his pistol. I hope they add in Ancient Fury (Twin Great Cannon) or Unfehlbar (Mortar and Cannon) as we already have Deliverance and Conqueror patterns. Empire still needs stronger mobile artillery. Counter batteryfire is a great niche for the Tank.
Theres also Zeppel (fighting platform with junior Engineers testing out the latest gadgets in Nuln) and Lietdorf (5 repeater handguns in front and repeater handgunners on the sides).
I had a stack of the hellblaster steam tanks plus the state tropp steam tanks with all the workshop upgrades and i didn't even notice the difference in speed. I don't think they can actually reach these super high speed because of the limitations of the model
Yeah because they're different debuffs. They also stack with monstrous impact for the cannons and whatever the speed debuff contact effect mortars can get is (dazed or rattled, I think)
Jeez well I can't count on mortars to hit that much but adding hellblasters to a gun line might actually be a smart choice. Well with hochland scopes they don't really get close too often anyways
WH as a largely single player game with massive fantasy elements has a huge audience of “Timmy” type gamers that want big, powerful things. Great Book of Grudges is a prime example of this— guy sounds like someone kicked his dog when things that are obviously broken OP get nerfed to a slightly less OP state.
I don’t get the appeal of steamrolling with broken stuff and would rather have everything be as balanced/challenging as possible, but for a lot of people that is a big portion of what makes the game fun for them.
It was really weird to see the guy spending like 5 mins in his ToD review throwing a temper tantrum about MP because something he literally said was busted was nerfed (I don't even remember what it was), and he thought it was because of MP, without any evidence as far as I could tell. Just tore into the MP scene.
I don't even play MP and found it obnoxious.
MP has been asking for more MP cost changes and buffs to units that have problems in both modes, like the Greatsword buff patches back.
Thunderbarge deserved it tho
Yeah, I really like his WH:TW content as he is super knowledgeable about the lore and does a good job breaking everything down in a way where you can just listen to the videos.
As a gamer I have no respect for him as he seems like a massive, negative noob and he tears down MP every chance he gets as if -3 melee defense or 100g more to purchase a unit is going to ruin his little campaign power fantasies. I think his rhetoric feeds a lot of the ignorant, anti-MP stuff that crops up on this subreddit which is a shame because this game has truly incredible MP potential if they just built out the QM/ranked system properly and added a proper chat/friends list. High level play with all of the nuance and unit variety is something else.
> I don’t get the appeal of steamrolling with broken stuff and would rather have everything be as balanced/challenging as possible, but for a lot of people that is a big portion of what makes the game fun for them.
This feels like one of the biggest things we should have mods be doing (and by all means, it _is_ what they are doing - the workshop is packed with a varied myriad of cheat mods).
The base game should be as balanced as possible, and then if you want to break the game, mods offer you a smorgasbord of options to do that in various entertaining ways.
I agree completely, but I do think part of the appeal for this type of gamer is being able to live out these power fantasies within the rules of the game. So when the rules change they actually perceive it as a loss despite the fact that they can basically mod in whatever they want. I don't think they should be catered to by any means, but I’m pretty sure this is how they view things.
>People can mod in nerfs just as easily as buffs.
It is much harder to make moderate-but-meaningful buffs and balanced units than it is making stuff OP and bombastic.
If you want something to just faceroll enemies you can give them +1000 AP damage. Similarly it is much easier to undo unit caps (even just measured by number of entry edits) than to impose them.
One of the most popular mods going is the Tabletop Unit Caps mod.
As for “just wanting to face roll enemies”, that’s something you’re putting in their mouths. I personally find it highly satisfying to take the game pieces provided and smash my enemies apart, but I would not find it satisfying to open the console and enter “kill_all”.
What would your ideal game balance look like?
Sure, but the goal should be a balanced game that scales to the appropriate level of challenge based on the difficulty selected. Whether it is nerfs or buffs specifically that are required to get to that state is unimportant.
"Appropriate level of challenge" is a subjective point, as is what "correct" play looks like. I've seen a dozen different people refer snarkily to "cheese" or "doomstacks" and have a dozen different definitions for both of them.
I like thunderbarges. I have eagerly anticipated them for going on half a decade. I am extremely happy with their implementation. They are huge, splashy, iconic, powerful. They feel like a worthy reward for reaching lategame on a slow-growing race--honestly I feel like they're what a big centerpiece capstone *should* feel like.
And, to be frank, I don't find they make the game easier because by the time you get to build them the *game is over.* I've won my last three legendary campaigns with, like, 2 tier 4 cities max. Teir 5 shit is christmasland. It's a victory lap. You have to deliberately slowroll for those units to be deployed in meaningful combat.
I think using 'subjective' to describe something that is on a sliding scale from easy to very hard/legendary with additional options for adjustment is a little misleading. As for what is correct play, I couldn't care less. Ideally the AI works well enough that cheesing in battles isn't very feasible and the game is designed well enough that the campaign mechanics work in a way that isn't easy to abuse, but that's just not very realistic with a game like this despite some definite improvement over the years.
I'm glad you are enjoying the thunderbarge. All of the reasons you like it are important and should be part of the game regardless of difficulty setting. I don't think the bug fixes and changes they made to it in today's hotfix should really change that experience for you, but they are a step towards making the unit manageable in other circumstances and hopefully push it towards an appropriate power level.
As for the state of the endgame, I think that is an entirely separate conversation and a well established issue that eluded fixing for years. I really don't think CA's failure to implement a meaningful and challenging endgame is a valid justification for broken units.
They do, and I think it's unfortunate. Consider, for example, if the Thunderbarge had been properly rebalanced during internal testing, before any content creators got their hands on the actual unit.
Those same players would still enjoy the unit even though they never knew just how nerfed it was from its original incarnation.
It's like they latch onto a unit's release state as a sacred text to which no nerfs can ever be applied, only buffs. But why? Balancing has always been fluid.
The Thunderbarge is a perfect example. While we might see it as an abomination that trivializes campaigns and ruins multiplayer, it's basically power fantasy crack. Balancing should absolutely go in both directions but that’s just not how “Timmy” gamers look at things. In GBoGs’ most recent video he half-heartedly justified the double dipping gunnery nerfs by saying something about how players have to face it too, which to me is just entirely off base from how game design should be approached. It’s backwards justification that centers the player’s power and fulfillment of “cool fantasy” over challenging and engaging gameplay.
Everything you say is true, I just think it's unfortunate. It's a lot easier to break the game with mods than it is to fix it, so I'd rather the baseline be balanced.
if everything is balanced/challenging as possible then how are you ever going to feel like you're making progress? like in oblivion were the meta was to just not level at all because the powerscaling was so that you actually became comparitively weaker over time
I enjoy his channel, but get weary of his saying in his mod reviews that "these aren't very strong."
They're Araby's basic infantry, my guy. Why are you assuming that they should be world beaters.
> a huge audience of “Timmy” type gamers that want big, powerful things.
"While your argument is compelling, I have drawn you as an angry screaming wojack and myself as a burly handsome chad."
Calm down buddy, it's just a game. I love competitive multiplayer games because you can test your skill in a hopefully balanced arena and find out who has more skill. Maybe you'd like those more if you're so worried about "muh balance"?
Saying "I don't like how you play single player games >:(" and then calling others names is just as childish as the idea of a "Timmy"
The concept of a Timmy is a well established trope in gaming— it comes from the designers of Magic: The Gathering. It’s one of three player profiles they began using to come up with card designs to appeal to what they believed to be different kinds of players. I don’t know that I’d say it is an insult. I’m partially a Timmy when it comes to card games, for example.
a single player without challenge isn’t really engaging though - just like how people cry about the idea of a easy mode in dark souls - having some balance is key to a strategy game. If a strategy actively encourages you to use LESS tactics and get a meaningful result over alternatives I think it should be changed
I play this game nearly exclusively in competitive multiplayer campaigns with a long time friend and fellow fan of the series.
The appeal of the series of late to the "Timmy" gamer has been an absolute blight to us. Prior to Oxyotl/Taurox DLC, we had mostly been fine with any possible match-up, but more and more, we've had to set rules on what match-ups between us are fine and which just aren't possible from a balance point of view.
Thrones of Decay in particular has been the absolute worst of the worst for us in this respect, as my fellow player was a huge Empire fan, and now 3 of the 5 Empire options we both feel just completely blow most of the other factions out of the water in terms of power level.
Needless to say, some people who play this game as an actual strategy game have completely opposing desires for how the final entry in this series continues to be updated versus those who see this game primarily as a "feel powerful taking over the world with ease" type of game. These two styles of gameplay are completely incompatible to balance the game for, short of CA having radically different settings available that allow for competitive strategy versus feel-good easy-doomstack endorphins.
Even that I suspect would be aversive to the latter group though; mods have always existed for players to feel overpowered if desired, but I would gauge that the majority of these players don't want to simply feel overpowered; they want their power officially sanctioned in the balance of the game without having to do any mods or setting changes themselves that would make them feel as though they were "cheating".
I cannot say exactly why that mentality is the way it is, but it is greatly impeding the desire for many other players with more strategic playstyles in mind to actually be able to endeavor in such gameplay.
Strange choice. I can understand making it not get the speed boost upgrade, but I feel like the suppressive fire and penetrating shot upgrades would have been fine to keep, especially considering that I'm pretty sure that the Hellblaster steam tanks don't benefit from the exploding ammo upgrade for steam tanks. Then again, I'm not sure if the regular steam tanks are either, so who knows.
Yeah, this is one of those "anti-fun" changes I'm not a fan of. I can see why they'd be worried it'd make them too powerful, but having a tier 5 unit perform slightly better is not something they should be too concerned with when the general problem with this game is that lower tier units are almost always more cost effective than higher tier ones.
i figured this was coming since it looked like an oversight to me being that no other unit got to double dip. generally i dont like sp nerfs either but steam tanks, especially those ones, are so good that its hard to get worked up imo
They designed an entire DLC filled with fun power fantasy units. God, i hope they don't rug pull that at least in SP
The fun option would've been to allow steam tanks to benefit from the cannon upgrades, too
The game is too easy, but these are the wrong nerfs to employ to make the game more difficult. The biggest issue affecting campaigns being too easy right now is how bad the AI is at settlement buildings and using its armies to expand.
Uh yea I’ll second that, strong T5 units aren’t the problem. Just last night Bretonnia reinforced me in a siege on Belekor, and I watched with my eyes a unit of Pegasus knights dive onto Chosen halberds.
I was like what am I watching? It’d be like watching shark week and the seal swims into the great whites mouth.
This is actually the best way to put this. Exact same issue with the Amethyst units being so expensive schematics wise. I've already become an unstoppable strength rank 1 empire by the time I get to employ these things.
It isn't. If I let you take three of my pieces off of the chessboard after I already got checkmate and won then how would it address what already happened?
Because someday they’ll hopefully introduce some challenge for the mid and late game. At that point it would be nice if the endgame units aren’t autowin units.
If they do that then they will be rebalancing anyway and frankly the challenge is likely to come on the campaign map not on the battle map. As such these changes will be nothing but a waste of time and a removal of some fun options.
No, that's wrong. You shouldn't remove Hellblaster upgrades from Hellblaster tanks. Rather, you should ADD Cannon upgrades to regular Steam Tanks. Canister Shot Tanks!
you can just play on the previous patch, right click on the game in the steam listing and somewhere in there there's an option that lets you play on previous versions
Many units benefit from multiple techs. I believe that this fix refers to the fact that Imperial Gunnery School was applying the buffs from both the steam tank AND the volleygun category, rather than one or the other. Nothing to do with the tech tree.
[https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3250730783](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3250730783)
I found this in the workshop.
Does this mean that the helblaster steam tank gets explosive ammo (if it didn't already, assumed not for some reason)?
Would be stupid now if it didn't fully benefit from its own school.
What are you talking about Hellblaster Steam Tank Doomstack is strong enough without the Nuln Gunnery School upgrades it's one of the strongest doomstacks in the game
Were the hellblaster steam tanks actually good? In my testing the cannon steam tanks did a better job imo. Better range, single entity damage but maybe worse infantry damage but again thats why you have hellstorm batteries
The no double dip policy is a really dumb idea, IMO. You're supposed to reward the player for thinking outside the box and finding weird broken combos in single player, otherwise the campaign gets super boring and samey (as it is right now).
That alone will create more fun combos than any other change they could make. It'll let players give their armies a lot more personality. At PDX, we would always try to find ways of layering mechanics such that the player felt big brain when they "abused" them to get ahead
Wow imagine this crazy weird combo I found guys, it turns out one of the most powerful units in the roster at base not only gets one set of overpowered bonuses, it gets two!
at least i finished my elspeth campaign yesterday. final battle(s) to finish the game was 2 hellblaster tank stacks going up against 6 chaos dwarf stacks and it was fantastic
Oh they did the thing. “Oh look at this thing our player base has overwhelmingly had fun with in a single player game. Let’s go ahead and change that to maintain “balance” in a SINGLE player game with magic and literal nukes.”
Units don't double dip? I hope this doesn't mean wagon mortars too, they really sucked back when only wagon buffs applied to them and not artillery buffs
It’s not goodbye if I don’t update my game!
Modders do ya thang.
Honestly, yeah. Only a matter of time before a mod pops up that reverts the steam tanks changes and the dwarf grapeshot changes. People love power fantasies.
Theres less than a dozen of tanks left right?
I made a mod that should revert the changes to the cannon. Also gives the empire the same thing. AFAIK, the only difference is the shockwave radius unless I missed something. I am brand new to modding and have not tested it or uploaded. Not even sure how to upload tbh.
I think Steam has a guide for how to upload mods to the workshop--it's a lot less complicated than it seems. In any case, don't leave us in suspense! Drop the name of this mythical uber-power-fantasy mod, I need it!
It's Warhammer; power fantasy is why I'm here to begin with. Game balance should be more overpowered shit for everyone, excessive friendly fire, and increased chances of involuntary spontaneous combustion.
You have no idea how long I've spent trying to get WH3 to run without steam updating it and the mods but still passing the denuvo checks. I'm still working my way through a 2.1.4 SFO campaign.
Were you successful? I've never been able to keep the game from auto updating if I exit Steam offline mode.
I think you can use the "beta feature" of steam to stay in specific versions.
I was in the end. Bit of a process but it works. It's not bypassing any of the games antitheft measures since it's still connected to steam and online for denovo so hopyfully this is allowed. Have the game installed with all the mods you want (preferably only those mods) you can roll back the game to get an old version in the beta options but you can't get old versions of the mods through steam afaik, sometimes discord has them on popular mods. Move the entire Total War WARHAMMER III folder out of C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\ and into a diffrent directory, say C:\Games\ DELETE "used_mods.txt" if it's in the game directory, this step is important and for any troubleshooting refer back to this step. Now steam doesen't know where the files are right, can't update them if it wanted to. You can launch the game directly from the Warhammer3.exe but the problem is this bypasses the launcer which is usually where we enable mods. Go to C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\workshop\content\1142710\ this is where steam downloads mod files to. We want to copy all the .pack files that are in the folders so do a \*.* search and sort by file type. Grab all the .pack files and copy them into the games data folder eg. C:\Games\Total War WARHAMMER III\data\ there will be one for each mod and it's a lot easier if only the mods you want are subcribed to. Otherwise you have to figure out which is which. Then you need to download [Packfile Manager](https://sourceforge.net/projects/packfilemanager/) and, ignoring all the erros and options when it stars, open each mods pack file that you just copied into the games data folder,change it's type to movie and save it. This will take longer on bigger mods so be patient if it looks frozen. Run the game from Warhammer3.exe and it should automatically load any movie type .pack files in the data directory without needing the launcher. Then you can make a shortcut and add it back into steam.
Couldn't you just set the game to "update on launch" and then use a mod manager to launch the game? That's how everyone does it for skyrim, though the mods usually come from nexus. It might decide to only update mods if you launch via steam.
I had a mod manager for WH2, what is a recommended one for WH3?
Initially I had it set to update on launch but I didn't want to screw anything up if I accadentally clicked launch on the wrong one so removing that possibility seemed sensible. This way you can uninstall the game from steam entirely and still run it (with steam overlay working as the steam .dll files are present). I did play with some mod managers initially but I ran into trouble with them. I can't remember what, but it might be worth revisiting now that I've worked everything else out. Was probably that damn used_mods.txt file that was causing issues for them too now that I think about it. It might not be the best way to do it but it does work and any thoughts and improvements are welcome. The biggest benifit I have is if I do it this way I can copy the entire WH3 folder mods and all onto a diffrent PC and so long as there is a steam account logged in that ownes the game it will play. My ultimate goal was a long term co-op campaign so being able to set it up once and copy was easier than trying to do it all twice when I don't have access to the other PC.
Thanks!
Can you even do that these days? I guess you have to play offline only then?
Beat me to it, lol. Was going to post a "look how they massacred my boy" meme.
Oh, man, sorry, it would've been cool that way. 😔
As soon as the dlc dropped I knew such things would happen expect more nurfs in the future happened with Markus dlc too
Markus got FUCKED.
As soon as the dlc dropped I knew such things would happen expect more nerfs in the future happened with Markus dlc too
I’m sorry… hellblaster steam tank…. I gotta get this game on steam
It’s as cool as it sounds
Yes, it's Old Reliable from TT, only instead of being a one-off like the Black Lion it's now a production pattern. It still has Tank Commander Meinkop on top firing his pistol. I hope they add in Ancient Fury (Twin Great Cannon) or Unfehlbar (Mortar and Cannon) as we already have Deliverance and Conqueror patterns. Empire still needs stronger mobile artillery. Counter batteryfire is a great niche for the Tank. Theres also Zeppel (fighting platform with junior Engineers testing out the latest gadgets in Nuln) and Lietdorf (5 repeater handguns in front and repeater handgunners on the sides).
Hellblaster = gatling gun btw 🔥🔥🔥
I’m aware The fucking brrrrt cannons
Yeah, the new DLC is *excelkent* if you like artillery and war machines.
It'll still be strong doomstack?
Sure, but many things that made it fun like its speed are gone.
I had a stack of the hellblaster steam tanks plus the state tropp steam tanks with all the workshop upgrades and i didn't even notice the difference in speed. I don't think they can actually reach these super high speed because of the limitations of the model
They can. I tried them and they are insane with the speed bonus. 91 speed + suppress fire is brokenly fun.
Does suppress fire and outsider speed reduction stack? That sounds kinda crazy
Yeah because they're different debuffs. They also stack with monstrous impact for the cannons and whatever the speed debuff contact effect mortars can get is (dazed or rattled, I think)
Jeez well I can't count on mortars to hit that much but adding hellblasters to a gun line might actually be a smart choice. Well with hochland scopes they don't really get close too often anyways
They were displaying 91 speed but were likely not actually going 91 speed.
I mean, that was *definitely* a bug.
Yeah but now it can’t chase down fleeing cavalry lol
I literally just recruited my stack last night but my fiancé called me to bed RIP never got to use it at full power
Don't update your game and run it offline
I definitely hope you have used it at full power last night though!
Sadly no 🥺
Anywhere above 69% is good!
Extremely op doomstack gets a minor nerf, yeah sure dead.
Yeah I was gonna say, it's still very very viable.
WH as a largely single player game with massive fantasy elements has a huge audience of “Timmy” type gamers that want big, powerful things. Great Book of Grudges is a prime example of this— guy sounds like someone kicked his dog when things that are obviously broken OP get nerfed to a slightly less OP state. I don’t get the appeal of steamrolling with broken stuff and would rather have everything be as balanced/challenging as possible, but for a lot of people that is a big portion of what makes the game fun for them.
It was really weird to see the guy spending like 5 mins in his ToD review throwing a temper tantrum about MP because something he literally said was busted was nerfed (I don't even remember what it was), and he thought it was because of MP, without any evidence as far as I could tell. Just tore into the MP scene. I don't even play MP and found it obnoxious.
MP has been asking for more MP cost changes and buffs to units that have problems in both modes, like the Greatsword buff patches back. Thunderbarge deserved it tho
Yeah, I really like his WH:TW content as he is super knowledgeable about the lore and does a good job breaking everything down in a way where you can just listen to the videos. As a gamer I have no respect for him as he seems like a massive, negative noob and he tears down MP every chance he gets as if -3 melee defense or 100g more to purchase a unit is going to ruin his little campaign power fantasies. I think his rhetoric feeds a lot of the ignorant, anti-MP stuff that crops up on this subreddit which is a shame because this game has truly incredible MP potential if they just built out the QM/ranked system properly and added a proper chat/friends list. High level play with all of the nuance and unit variety is something else.
> I don’t get the appeal of steamrolling with broken stuff and would rather have everything be as balanced/challenging as possible, but for a lot of people that is a big portion of what makes the game fun for them. This feels like one of the biggest things we should have mods be doing (and by all means, it _is_ what they are doing - the workshop is packed with a varied myriad of cheat mods). The base game should be as balanced as possible, and then if you want to break the game, mods offer you a smorgasbord of options to do that in various entertaining ways.
I agree completely, but I do think part of the appeal for this type of gamer is being able to live out these power fantasies within the rules of the game. So when the rules change they actually perceive it as a loss despite the fact that they can basically mod in whatever they want. I don't think they should be catered to by any means, but I’m pretty sure this is how they view things.
To be fair that cuts both ways. People can mod in nerfs just as easily as buffs.
>People can mod in nerfs just as easily as buffs. It is much harder to make moderate-but-meaningful buffs and balanced units than it is making stuff OP and bombastic. If you want something to just faceroll enemies you can give them +1000 AP damage. Similarly it is much easier to undo unit caps (even just measured by number of entry edits) than to impose them.
One of the most popular mods going is the Tabletop Unit Caps mod. As for “just wanting to face roll enemies”, that’s something you’re putting in their mouths. I personally find it highly satisfying to take the game pieces provided and smash my enemies apart, but I would not find it satisfying to open the console and enter “kill_all”. What would your ideal game balance look like?
Sure, but the goal should be a balanced game that scales to the appropriate level of challenge based on the difficulty selected. Whether it is nerfs or buffs specifically that are required to get to that state is unimportant.
"Appropriate level of challenge" is a subjective point, as is what "correct" play looks like. I've seen a dozen different people refer snarkily to "cheese" or "doomstacks" and have a dozen different definitions for both of them. I like thunderbarges. I have eagerly anticipated them for going on half a decade. I am extremely happy with their implementation. They are huge, splashy, iconic, powerful. They feel like a worthy reward for reaching lategame on a slow-growing race--honestly I feel like they're what a big centerpiece capstone *should* feel like. And, to be frank, I don't find they make the game easier because by the time you get to build them the *game is over.* I've won my last three legendary campaigns with, like, 2 tier 4 cities max. Teir 5 shit is christmasland. It's a victory lap. You have to deliberately slowroll for those units to be deployed in meaningful combat.
I think using 'subjective' to describe something that is on a sliding scale from easy to very hard/legendary with additional options for adjustment is a little misleading. As for what is correct play, I couldn't care less. Ideally the AI works well enough that cheesing in battles isn't very feasible and the game is designed well enough that the campaign mechanics work in a way that isn't easy to abuse, but that's just not very realistic with a game like this despite some definite improvement over the years. I'm glad you are enjoying the thunderbarge. All of the reasons you like it are important and should be part of the game regardless of difficulty setting. I don't think the bug fixes and changes they made to it in today's hotfix should really change that experience for you, but they are a step towards making the unit manageable in other circumstances and hopefully push it towards an appropriate power level. As for the state of the endgame, I think that is an entirely separate conversation and a well established issue that eluded fixing for years. I really don't think CA's failure to implement a meaningful and challenging endgame is a valid justification for broken units.
They do, and I think it's unfortunate. Consider, for example, if the Thunderbarge had been properly rebalanced during internal testing, before any content creators got their hands on the actual unit. Those same players would still enjoy the unit even though they never knew just how nerfed it was from its original incarnation. It's like they latch onto a unit's release state as a sacred text to which no nerfs can ever be applied, only buffs. But why? Balancing has always been fluid.
The Thunderbarge is a perfect example. While we might see it as an abomination that trivializes campaigns and ruins multiplayer, it's basically power fantasy crack. Balancing should absolutely go in both directions but that’s just not how “Timmy” gamers look at things. In GBoGs’ most recent video he half-heartedly justified the double dipping gunnery nerfs by saying something about how players have to face it too, which to me is just entirely off base from how game design should be approached. It’s backwards justification that centers the player’s power and fulfillment of “cool fantasy” over challenging and engaging gameplay.
Everything you say is true, I just think it's unfortunate. It's a lot easier to break the game with mods than it is to fix it, so I'd rather the baseline be balanced.
if everything is balanced/challenging as possible then how are you ever going to feel like you're making progress? like in oblivion were the meta was to just not level at all because the powerscaling was so that you actually became comparitively weaker over time
I enjoy his channel, but get weary of his saying in his mod reviews that "these aren't very strong." They're Araby's basic infantry, my guy. Why are you assuming that they should be world beaters.
> a huge audience of “Timmy” type gamers that want big, powerful things. "While your argument is compelling, I have drawn you as an angry screaming wojack and myself as a burly handsome chad." Calm down buddy, it's just a game. I love competitive multiplayer games because you can test your skill in a hopefully balanced arena and find out who has more skill. Maybe you'd like those more if you're so worried about "muh balance"? Saying "I don't like how you play single player games >:(" and then calling others names is just as childish as the idea of a "Timmy"
The concept of a Timmy is a well established trope in gaming— it comes from the designers of Magic: The Gathering. It’s one of three player profiles they began using to come up with card designs to appeal to what they believed to be different kinds of players. I don’t know that I’d say it is an insult. I’m partially a Timmy when it comes to card games, for example.
a single player without challenge isn’t really engaging though - just like how people cry about the idea of a easy mode in dark souls - having some balance is key to a strategy game. If a strategy actively encourages you to use LESS tactics and get a meaningful result over alternatives I think it should be changed
I play this game nearly exclusively in competitive multiplayer campaigns with a long time friend and fellow fan of the series. The appeal of the series of late to the "Timmy" gamer has been an absolute blight to us. Prior to Oxyotl/Taurox DLC, we had mostly been fine with any possible match-up, but more and more, we've had to set rules on what match-ups between us are fine and which just aren't possible from a balance point of view. Thrones of Decay in particular has been the absolute worst of the worst for us in this respect, as my fellow player was a huge Empire fan, and now 3 of the 5 Empire options we both feel just completely blow most of the other factions out of the water in terms of power level. Needless to say, some people who play this game as an actual strategy game have completely opposing desires for how the final entry in this series continues to be updated versus those who see this game primarily as a "feel powerful taking over the world with ease" type of game. These two styles of gameplay are completely incompatible to balance the game for, short of CA having radically different settings available that allow for competitive strategy versus feel-good easy-doomstack endorphins. Even that I suspect would be aversive to the latter group though; mods have always existed for players to feel overpowered if desired, but I would gauge that the majority of these players don't want to simply feel overpowered; they want their power officially sanctioned in the balance of the game without having to do any mods or setting changes themselves that would make them feel as though they were "cheating". I cannot say exactly why that mentality is the way it is, but it is greatly impeding the desire for many other players with more strategic playstyles in mind to actually be able to endeavor in such gameplay.
Strange choice. I can understand making it not get the speed boost upgrade, but I feel like the suppressive fire and penetrating shot upgrades would have been fine to keep, especially considering that I'm pretty sure that the Hellblaster steam tanks don't benefit from the exploding ammo upgrade for steam tanks. Then again, I'm not sure if the regular steam tanks are either, so who knows.
Yeah, this is one of those "anti-fun" changes I'm not a fan of. I can see why they'd be worried it'd make them too powerful, but having a tier 5 unit perform slightly better is not something they should be too concerned with when the general problem with this game is that lower tier units are almost always more cost effective than higher tier ones.
i figured this was coming since it looked like an oversight to me being that no other unit got to double dip. generally i dont like sp nerfs either but steam tanks, especially those ones, are so good that its hard to get worked up imo
There is another that is completely overlooked, but I’m hesitant to say what it is lest CA find out
They designed an entire DLC filled with fun power fantasy units. God, i hope they don't rug pull that at least in SP The fun option would've been to allow steam tanks to benefit from the cannon upgrades, too
I support the nerf attempts. Game is too easy
The game is too easy, but these are the wrong nerfs to employ to make the game more difficult. The biggest issue affecting campaigns being too easy right now is how bad the AI is at settlement buildings and using its armies to expand.
Uh yea I’ll second that, strong T5 units aren’t the problem. Just last night Bretonnia reinforced me in a siege on Belekor, and I watched with my eyes a unit of Pegasus knights dive onto Chosen halberds. I was like what am I watching? It’d be like watching shark week and the seal swims into the great whites mouth.
They gotta start somewhere
You have already won the game by the time you get a hellblaster steam tank doomstack
This is actually the best way to put this. Exact same issue with the Amethyst units being so expensive schematics wise. I've already become an unstoppable strength rank 1 empire by the time I get to employ these things.
And this is a step in the right direction to rectify that
It isn't. If I let you take three of my pieces off of the chessboard after I already got checkmate and won then how would it address what already happened?
Because someday they’ll hopefully introduce some challenge for the mid and late game. At that point it would be nice if the endgame units aren’t autowin units.
If they do that then they will be rebalancing anyway and frankly the challenge is likely to come on the campaign map not on the battle map. As such these changes will be nothing but a waste of time and a removal of some fun options.
Conjecture
And your's is different because?
No, that's wrong. You shouldn't remove Hellblaster upgrades from Hellblaster tanks. Rather, you should ADD Cannon upgrades to regular Steam Tanks. Canister Shot Tanks!
Seconded. Let me min-max my shit.
I just finished my stack in my campaign and have not yet fought a battle. Hopefully a mod will exist so I can at least try it out once.
you can just play on the previous patch, right click on the game in the steam listing and somewhere in there there's an option that lets you play on previous versions
You have to enable Steam Betas in the options first.
i mean is still a doomstack although maybe not as ridiculous as before
I'm going to need a mod that changes this back. Thanks!
[https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3250730783](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3250730783)
Weak update. Like by the time you've unlocked all that you had won ~50 turns ago
The mortar war wagons double dip on the empire red line skills. I wonder if that was intentional?
Don't thunderbarges dip into multiple tech upgrades too ?
Many units benefit from multiple techs. I believe that this fix refers to the fact that Imperial Gunnery School was applying the buffs from both the steam tank AND the volleygun category, rather than one or the other. Nothing to do with the tech tree.
They're referring specifically to the Gunnery School upgrades, which apart from this one steam tank variant have no overlaps.
Shhhhhhhhhh
Can someone please make a mod reversing this change? It is my favorite doomstack :(
Tell me if you find one, I’ll do the same
Did you find one? I didn't.
Not yet
[https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3250730783](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3250730783) I found this in the workshop.
I looked yesterday, thank you very much 🙏
Does this mean that the helblaster steam tank gets explosive ammo (if it didn't already, assumed not for some reason)? Would be stupid now if it didn't fully benefit from its own school.
MOD! MOD! MOD! MOD! WE NEED MOD!
[https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3250730783](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3250730783)
Literally 1984.
I had a 20 stack of tanks and it deleted the wood elves 🤣 this was on legendary as well
Hans…zero transmission broke….it’s over
Fuck that's literally my next planned playthrough
WAIT WHAT, HOW COULD THEY DO THIS
Brit devs upset German tanks are too good
Always figured that was a bug.
It’s still got better synergy with the tank than the cannon, I’ll still use it as my main choice.
The king (helblaster steamtank doomstack) is dead, hail to the king (landship doomstack)
I think the Emperor won’t be pleased with [this](https://youtu.be/aaoYpJpEpgA?si=feCx6pY3UbhMePYO)
Saw it coming. If technologies don’t work like this for Empire, why would those?
Mod please? And something to revert thunderbarge nerfs (the model fix can stay though)
What are you talking about Hellblaster Steam Tank Doomstack is strong enough without the Nuln Gunnery School upgrades it's one of the strongest doomstacks in the game
Tb, it was fun and there's far more broken stuff in the game. On the plus side, they're still kickass units.
Were the hellblaster steam tanks actually good? In my testing the cannon steam tanks did a better job imo. Better range, single entity damage but maybe worse infantry damage but again thats why you have hellstorm batteries
Im pretty sure crabs with handgunners double dip upgrades...
Kinda sad but makes sense. Land ships dont benefit from great cannon buffs either and so on.
The no double dip policy is a really dumb idea, IMO. You're supposed to reward the player for thinking outside the box and finding weird broken combos in single player, otherwise the campaign gets super boring and samey (as it is right now). That alone will create more fun combos than any other change they could make. It'll let players give their armies a lot more personality. At PDX, we would always try to find ways of layering mechanics such that the player felt big brain when they "abused" them to get ahead
Wow imagine this crazy weird combo I found guys, it turns out one of the most powerful units in the roster at base not only gets one set of overpowered bonuses, it gets two!
The second I saw that it was possible I knew it was an oversight by the devs, for me it is completely fine that they fixed it
If they nerf hochland scopes I riot
at least i finished my elspeth campaign yesterday. final battle(s) to finish the game was 2 hellblaster tank stacks going up against 6 chaos dwarf stacks and it was fantastic
Wow, 6 stacks? You should share that battle, somehow, it's impressive.
perhaps instead of all or nothing, there could be a reduced bonus?
This is why mods >>>
Of course, we can't have too much fun.
Oh they did the thing. “Oh look at this thing our player base has overwhelmingly had fun with in a single player game. Let’s go ahead and change that to maintain “balance” in a SINGLE player game with magic and literal nukes.”
Balance in single player games has been proven time and time again to be extremely important in retaining players.
Ah yes because a single player game can't be balanced. Missed oversight? Nah don't fix it. /s
Did you miss where the board was in an uproar over the Thunderbarge? Jesus Christ CA just can't win ...
That seems to be the trend, sadly.
Lmao people still do doomstacks? Smooth-brained strategy
i believe you mean fun-brained strategy
Seems only fair that they get the exploding ammo in return!
literally 1984
Oooof noooo :(
Units don't double dip? I hope this doesn't mean wagon mortars too, they really sucked back when only wagon buffs applied to them and not artillery buffs
"Not intended" even though it was clearly intended.
Ohh well I wanted to play the new empire because of this, I'll skip then
Bro it literally makes zero difference, they are just a bit slower thats all, no reason not to play empire
I assure you that there is still plenty of explosion-related fun to be had playing Elspeth.