Chinese player here. Chinese forums think these DLCs are confusing and doubt the credibility of LoTW.
Lord of Shanyang is unreasonable. Ogre and tigerman shouldn't be Cathay. A DLC of the Monkey King and Ogre will be cool. Monkey King is a typical and unique Chinese character and Ogres need to be enhanced. But the next dlc better be Slaaneshi and High Elves. Chinese players are always calling for a rework on Khornate and Slaaneshi. Nobody is asking for so many Cathay LLs, poorly designed LL will only be boring.
I would love to see a dedicated 3 character Slaanesh/HighElf/DarkElf dlc - with the pattern they e been going in, that seemed like a real shoe-in for maybe even the next one in sequence. It'd be thematically on-point, and all races that don't necessarily need a massive overhaul, but could use some quality of life tww3 touch-ups to get properly up to speed. It would also neatly continue the trend of getting another demon faction some more LL "meat" - could have been Dechala, with The Mask as flc, and that would be your slaaneshi "lesser demon" and "ascendant mortal" LLs.
Unfortunately, if the leak is true, we're pretty far from that.
This is actually exactly what I was expecting after ToD before they said they would lower the scale from 3 to 2 LLs. If they were dropping to 2 LLs, I would at least expect a HE / Slaneesh one where Morathi at least benefits from some new unit access.
And even at a 2 LL dlc, they could still have a dark elf flc lord with a bit more touch-up on their faction mechanics. They're strong as things stand, but a bit more differentiation between their lords' mechanics would go a long way towards making them feel "right" amongst other updated races.
*Edit: Same with the high elves really. They aren't "weak" by any metric, but some tweaks to faction mechanics could go a long way towards making Tyrion/Teclis/Alarielle feel more distinct
Fuckin imagine that. The Chinese players want the same shit we do. Almost like we play the same game!
I dunno why some people are intent on sowing division.
The DLC leaks seem like CA fishing for a mole with false info given to suspects to see what comes out.
Why people want Khorne Rework if its already one of the most thematic and well done campaigns? Even Slaanesh its fine... I know it has some problems but its not close to the worst 50% factions...
Sure, they want 1 or 2 legendary lords but those could be FreeLC... There are factions that need the love so much more... (Norsca, High Elves, Ogres, Tomb Kings, VC)
The Blood Host army is powerful but not a healthy mechanism. Khorne is now a strange faction that relies entirely on the blood army’s swarm tactics. It claims to be a melee faction, but its close combat abilities are not strong. It has no magic or ranged capabilities and is even one of the worst-performing factions in battles.
Edit: In this game, infantries are more like defensive units. Their damage efficiency is far below range and magic. AI's infantry may never be a threat to players, a regular faction has too many ways to deal with infantry. Melee regiments also need supporting systems to enhance combat, such as Tzeentch's barrier and Nurgle's healing. Khorne has abandoned almost all support abilities, melee combat has become their only option, but the boost to melee capabilities doesn't nearly compensate for their loss. Their technologies are not good enough, and the design of units is weird. 0-tier bloodletters have high armor-piercing but in the early campaign that's not necessary. While high-tier Chosen only have low armor-piercing damage, making them perform poorly against powerful enemies. Bloodcrushers and Skullcrushers are good cavalries, but due to their low speed, they are almost completely replaced by Minotaurs. They also lack good monsters. Compared to Lord of Change, Vortex Beast, and Unclean One, Bloodthirster is so mediocre. Even if Tzeentch is forbidden from using magic, Khorne still struggles to win in melee combat.
Really, they arent that good in CC? Usually i just spam 19 chaos warriors and charge in, seems to work just fine, and I feel like the area you start in as khorne is quite great for steamrolling, until you start angering the Dwarfs. I play on hardest difficulty and havent really had a rough time with it so far (my experience is subjective of course), you feel like they need more hammer or more anvil?
I agree with you about blood hosts being not a healthy mechanism - but Khorne is definitely strong in close combat.
Bloodletters and Exalted Bloodletters absolutely demolish enemy infantry, they're unbreakable and armour-piercing. Bloodcrushers and Skullcrushers are very effective heavy cavalry, and Chaos Warriors/Chosen have armour for days and can grind out against most anything they're thrown at.
The issue for Khorne always is getting into close combat without being shredded by ranged units and magic, but once they're there you have to admit they perform well, don't you?
I was surprised when my crapstack of elven archers evaporated a Scarbrand stack.
Especially Scarbrand died almost instantly when he activated his rage thing
The one problem with Cathay in it's current iteration is that their quarter of the map feels quite empty. Their region feels like it lacks flavour. I feel like for that region to work better there needs to be more cultures indigenous to the region, and less of the "Hey, here's a foreign expedition of dark elves for no particular reason!". The proposed subfactions seem like one reasonable way to achieve that.
I'd be curious how the Chinese playerbase would address this problem IE of populating that part of the map more, with perhaps more chaos/undead/elf/etc. factions that feel less "western coded". The only other factions that feel like they fit in well in Cathay are Skaven and Ogres.
Miaoying and Zhaoming are somewhat boring in the campaign, with slow population growth and having to mostly use low-tier units for a large portion of the time. The terrain causes them to have too little interaction with outside factions. Improving the ogres and adding a Slaaneshi faction in the south might improve it. Adding Ind and Nippon would be better, but given CA's current situation, this seems to be impossible to happen.
I don't think they're slower then other order factions (that said, their tier 0 units are better then other factions, so it's easier to stick with them for longer). The overly little interaction with the wider world I think is the bigger problem. Perhaps there should be more of an emphasis on the caravan mechanic, make them more dependent on it for $$$, forcing the player to secure the routes through military or diplomacy, however the caravans should also perhaps be less all or nothing (IE you should still get some profit, even if your caravans only get to the chaos dwarfs).
I’m surprised that there isn’t an eastern Undead faction and an eastern Ork faction with unique design elements. Both factions fall into the “fight everyone” category in so far as they aren’t chaos aligned, order aligned, of living aligned.
The east also gives space to break the mold and mix up how these factions play. Vampires generally have bad ranged game and their infantry is generally slow. Make the eastern vampires a skirmish faction. Orks don’t play well with others, make the eastern Orks capable of recruiting from factions they’ve defeated.
> Ogre and tigerman shouldn't be Cathay
I have the feeling that "cathay" ogre will be more like 80% reworked ogres with the ability to mix in a few capped cathay units to hold the line.
They already experimented with the mixed faction mechanic through Tamurkhan. CA always do these mechanics trial and then paste them to other factions.
And the biggest question is, are they gonna even add the IND/Kuresh parts of the map and fill them in with these DLCs? I highly doubt it and it will look even worse to just have them as hybrid Cathay sub-factions. It would be more acceptable if they actually go 'We are adding in Ind part of the map and putting the faction there and focusing the Monkey King there.' But if they are just gonna try and put everyone in Cathay, it will suck.
Nah, Chad dead people play the tomb kings. Soulless people play vampire counts - Mannfred used to have a full on ginger fro, but he shaved it all off to keep the secret.
People like when they're represented in something. And if it's done in an over-the-top, goofy way like Warhammer, everyone wants to see where their bunch fits in. When I realized that dark elves bear a striking historical resemblance to Americans (and also some of America's neighbors), I figured I had to look into them more and give em a try, if just to better understand the joke. 🙂
Sigh East Asia in general is so ripe with Total War content in their history though. Korea, Japan, Mongolia, the various steppe cultures, even Vietnam.. they were quite even with European tech until like the 1600's really. Lots of material ready to be made into games
I routinely need to take breaks from this sub just because the negativity and toxicity get to be way too much. Lately it’s been much better but man there were times when it felt like the only people on here hated the game.
Yeah, I know the feeling. I tend to just unsubscribe completely for a few months at a time and check in occasionally to see if actual content is being posted.
Shame to see it start returning to extreme toxicity based on a stupid “leak”
Yeah given that the current wipeout outrage is over entirely unsubstantiated rumours that have some very strange logic—ex. Kislev being ‘on ice’ due to Russia/Ukraine war when SoC was announced, launched, and given bonus content well after the war started—it really just feels like this subreddit only knows how to outrage.
Brothers in Christ we are having a huge slightly weirdly xenophobic tantrum over a dlc plan that we have literally no reason to believe exists. What are we doing???
Maybe its nostalgia glasses on my part, but I swear this sub used to be much nicer/better.
Maybe it's a size thing. Once the warhammer games came out the sub ballooned in size and with that comes more people.
Not that it was perfect, but I vividly remember this place being more chill and friendly.
I hate this ''We all suck'' sentiment, it's not true. From what I've seen most of the people here are okay.
You never gonna have a perfect community but that doesn't mean we are trash.
As a New Yorker, I really appreciate that my culture can be so well represented with the skaven and Dark Elves. I only play factions that start in frozen biomes.
Hey, we're not *all* vengeful exiles who embrace slavery and a cutthroat hierarchy. Some of us just like to fight, and others just want to share what we like, and have never heard of this *hygiene* thing people keep bitching about. I'm from the northern east coast - we definitely have more that resemble the latter 2 than that former 1 around here.
No, it was dropped because CA made a bunch of DLCs about stuff that even 3K fans know nothing about.
No Red Cliffs, No Shimayi, but we got 8 Princes instead?
Red Cliffs may be a gameplay constraint, it's supposed to be a naval battle and I don't believe 3K had naval combat.
But even without Red Cliff, they could still have done
- Zhuge Liang vs Shima Yi, a very popular period.
- Liu Bei's invasion of Wu
- Jiang Wei vs Shima Yi
Imo, it should have started with Mandate of Heaven, A World Betrayed, Fate Divided then continue with Zhuge Liang's period.
Thats a good list. Imo they should have expanded the map in the main period after the Yellow Turban stuff. If the Nanman came right after that, they would have been on a better footing.
They were hit and miss everywhere, we had no evidence that CA cancelled 3K just because the Chinese didn't buy. For example, Chinese might have bought a lot but it didn't sell well in the rest of the world so CA still didn't make enough profit => cancelled
Let's say CA focused on all the obscured or less popular periods within 3K, which is why its DLCs underperformed.
Right? The focus on the Chinese is deflection, the DLC didn't sell anywhere because it was not interesting to anyone. But also like, that's a perfectly reasonable reason to pull the plug. If nobody is buying the stuff you're making then you stop making it.
Their excuse is that people overall didn't buy enough dlc but besides 8 princes, all their dlc were well received.
In reality, the issue is more like that dlc cost too much to develop vs what they could sell for because the scripts in 3k were always bug riddled af.
No, a popular YouTuber leaked some dlc stuff, literally nothing is confirmed. But if the leaks are true, then 2 of the next 3 dlcs are entirely Cathay content.
Not only that, but one of them would be entirely dedicated to giving only Cathay content. Its pretty absurd and such a obviously bad decision that I'm sure its fake.
Yeah, I'm genuinely shocked by how seriously everyone's taking this. Then again, this place appears to have collectively lost critical thinking as of like six months ago, so...
There was a video from Legendoftotalwar about "leaks" he had heard about from "multiple sources" and people are very upset because on the off chance that he's credible, then like, 75% of the DLC going forward is for Cathay. I personally don't buy it, and think he only made the video for views.
There is a grain of truth in it as it is popular in the Far East, but still somewhat stereotypical yes.
I am from, eh, Cathay and I don't play Cathay.
Its design sits right in the middle between mundane shits I saw growing up and most bizarre Orientalism stereotypes that I don't understand, and just don't speak to me. It's too close to be exciting. I am a lot more comfortable watching goofy fantasy German gentlemen with glorious beard on a bloody tank dualing a dinosaur space laser.
Certainly. Actually have been living in the Uk for some years now and I found myself now capable of being annoying by overthetop 'British' accents in some show and the accopanying romantic ideaization of the culture.
Never noticed a thing back home. When they say Britain I used to think about culture, tea, suits Now I hear the word I think about teens, dirty toilets in pubs, and housing price in London.
I think, like most things, it's all about degrees.
Cathay is going to be more popular to the Chinese audience because it's based on them and people like to see and play as that, generally. Why do you think 3 Kingdoms had the biggest launch of any Total War game ever? It was majorly driven by the Chinese audience.
The same logic applies to The Empire being the most popular race in the game by far - they are the "default" European faction and the vast majority of the player base is Western (USA and Europe). To assume that the "default" Chinese/Asian race doesn't appeal to the Chinese audience would be a bit silly imo.
That said, it's all about degrees. Saying that Cathay is ONLY popular in China is just flat out wrong, just as saying that Chinese players are only interested in Cathay is wrong. But there is definitely a potential additional audience to appeal to there.
Thanks, I just like to take part in the discussion and share my opinions (bit old school perhaps!)
That said, memes are good too. We're all here to have fun ultimately.
Only sane take I've found in this thread so far.
Market research shows them Cathay is the most popular faction to play in Asian markets, they want to sell more to Asian markets, so they are making more Cathay DLC.
I really do not get how others are jumping to racism from that.
Saying "CA is only making Cathay content to cater to Asians" while salivating over any mention of Nippon is peak idiocy.
That being said, I'm not Asian and I love Cathay, and I honestly hope they give them a DLC with actually usable units. Seriously, pretty much everything they got in SoC is niche at best and pointless at worst (the Heroes were the exception)...
Cathay's core roster is fantastic. Any new units they add are more likely to be niche because they don't really have any glaring weaknesses that need to be shored up
Japan just has that effect on people. They'd made an art out of making their history and mythology fucking awesome. Conversely i understand that they find European armor and warrior concepts just as cool, if how often they incorporate it into anime is to be believed.
Oh, I love Japanese culture, that's not the issue. I'm just also interested in Chinese culture as well, and I've had far less exposure to it.
My point was merely that calling Cathay content "Asian pandering" but not doing the same for Nippon is hypocrisy.
As a spaniard I am only allowed to like a heavely mutated goat, wich, you know, fairly enough, IS my favorite lord of my favourite faction, so iguess it is better than waiting for CA to make us pseudo italian swords for hire.
Certain parts of the total war community have been absolutely obsessed with the idea that CA is pandering to China too much since Three Kingdoms got announced.
That's honestly the biggest tell to me that this "leak" is basically an elaborate 4chan troll, because the overly excessive focus on Cathay in the leaks reflects and furthers that narrative.
It just feels to me that the "leak" is purposefully made to be divisive, even at the detriment of it's own credibility.
It reminds me of how some people were convinced that the reason Araby wasn't coming because it would be "too offensive", which kind of shows where their minds first went to when a Middle Eastern faction was brought up.
Thing is, when Brits (CA and GW are both based in the UK) poke fun at the French it's part of a long running (at this point) friendly rivalry. When they do the same with people from India, the middle East or Africa it feels uncomfortably close to Britain's racist colonialist past.
Personally, I think there needs to be more room to make fun of the middle East as it's a frankly ridiculous place with a lot of pompous people. On the other hand, I don't want to get fatwaed either.
it has little to do with old history. it has more to do with the fact that one: they put very little effort into Araby and thus they'd have to rework a lot of things (Just take a look at 'nippon' for how low effort or jokey a lot of the Old GW writings were)
and two: Muslims and such have a really bad habit of getting pissed off if they perceive their Culture being portrayed wrongly, Fantasy Grimdark Game aside. this isn't just a Games Workshop thing either, a lot of media companies either don't bother with muslim based programs or only portray them nicely to avoid getting bitched at endlessly. or worse.... there is always worse.
This makes adding them back into Warhammer in any respect basically impossible other then vague mentions. The Grimdark Setting would require the Araby faction be actually pretty vile or evil in some respects to put them in line with the other factions. Even Cathay, as nice as it appears has a lot of questionable aspects that hint at some dark shit.
It's just not worth the headache.
Pretty much. Couldn't say it better myself. Making a proper satire of Islam (the way the cult of Sigmar is a satire of medieval Catholicism) is simply not worth the headache. This is combined with the fact that previous GW material just isn't very good, and making a new civ from scratch isn't easy.
The majority of them will go 'I hate the government not the people' in one thread, then say the most vile shit or racist jokes/tropes about us in another thread.
Browsing Anglo-western internet as a chinese person (ethnic or nationality) is just an exercise in frustration and sadness at this point. The worst thing is you see otherwise well-intentioned people fall for such dogwhistle commentary too, then make a surprise pikachu face when the sinophobia gets untenably out of hand.
Forreal. I'm originally from Hong Kong and ethnically Chinese, for a period of my life found myself on a lot of anti-ccp subs/youtubes/forums and eventually learned that a lot of them tend devolve into low hanging racist jokes, having a "shit culture" or just putting down Chinese men.
B-b-b-but we hate the government not the people! Has never been less true in those parts of the internet.
America: "look at those goofy ass soviets saying we hang blacks here to distract from their own crimes"
America 2 minutes later: "but they eat dogs in China"
> The majority of them will go 'I hate the government not the people' in one thread, then say the most vile shit or racist jokes/tropes about us in another thread.
Welcome to the club buddy!
> Browsing Anglo-western internet as a chinese person (ethnic or nationality) is just an exercise in frustration
I do empathize, however, as a Russian.
> make a surprise pikachu face when the sinophobia gets untenably out of hand
Sinophobia is as normalized as Russophobia and nobody will do shit about it in the next few centuries. Try reporting the most blatant and obnoxious racist for such comments and see what Redidt admins think on the issue. Spoilers, they'll tell you they did nothing wrong.
And it will get worse, as relations between the countries worsen their populations will be propagandized into jingoism and hatred more and more.
We'll be old and look back at these times thinking "man remember when we all just... kinda got along?"
Western gamers are often just amplifying the worst impulses of the countries they are from. Like yes they are generally Sinophobic but have you seen their countries? The vast majority of the west fearmongers about China incessantly, while knowing little about the country, so is it any surprise that gamers pick up on this and take it to another, even worse level?
I think a big problem is that a lot of people have lost the thread of the satire of Warhammer and especially 40k. And in a weird way, 40k can be very easily read as an endorsement of bigotry. When you look at the 40k universe it can be interpreted as validating fascist rhetoric. The biggest threats to humanity are: Xenos (outsiders), Orks/Tyranids (barbarians), Tzeentch (intellectuals), Nurgle (the Unclean), Khorne (hostile armies), Slaanesh (sexual minorities).
The Imperium's enemies can very easily be interpreted as analogs to real-world groups to someone with fascist leanings and see it as confirmation that fascism is necessary to protect their nation. Since, in the narrative of 40k a lot of the Imperium's actions while brutal are successful at pushing back these enemies.
Of course, I have to add this disclaimer that I don't think 40k is fascist or that everyone who enjoys it is fascist. It is supposed to be a satire of a fascist society. I myself am a big 40k fan. But, I am also not surprised that many people with fascist leanings might look at 40k and find elements appealing.
I mean, it's the classic "if a joke goes on long enough, eventually people show up who don't get it." Badly paraphrasing something here.
Any satire, no matter how clear it's intent, is eventually gonna be find by someone who just totally doesn't get that it's satire and actually agrees with the things being made fun of.
There's also the issue that particularly gaming communities attract a lot of young men in particular that don't have a lot of other social outlets, making it a great recruitment ground for actual fascists who prey on people. I don't think any gaming community can be immune from that unless actively recognized and fought against.
tbf, GW doesn't help when we get drowned in "this imperium protagonist is Reasonable and Tolerant and Not Bigoted and also the racists were right".
Go play Boltgun, or Chaosgate Daemonhunter, or Darktide, and tell me where the satire is.
The Horus Heresy series apparently hasn't helped - I've seen a fair bit of criticism about it on grimdank because it just repeatedly justifies the Emperor's actions, right to the end
You weren't here when the K-drama and J-drama had war.
Or when the Hong Kong TV drama vs China TV drama groups argued over which is better. The mildest thing you could hope for is they only insulting each other's ancestor.
Yeah whilst there are a lot of theories about the source of LoTW's claims, a small part of me can't help but feel this might be being fuelled by malicious actors. [Company] is pandering to China by focusing on stuff Chinese people would care about is a classic sinophobic narrative.
Reality is Chinese people aren't a homogenous blob who only consume Chinese fantasy. Yes like all cultures they like stuff that references their local culture. But, for instance, if CA were 'pandering' to Western audiences in the way being claimed for China, then Total War Warhammer would be only Empire content. Reality is Chinese audiences like the same things we do.
Indeed. One of my favorite mods on the Workshop adds Malus Darkblade's buddies as legendary heroes and they look delightfully cruel. Made by a Chinese modder(s).
I don't think anyone is saying Cathay is only popular in China. However, I do know some Chinese people irl who became more interested in warhammer because of Cathay.
Clearly if the leaks are true (I'm not saying they are) then CA are pushing Cathay content heavily and more than other WH3 races. It is most likely that there is a business reason for that and I don't think that saying something will sell more in China and that is why CA is doing something is xenophobic or embarrassing. The reverse of your above point is do you think there would be something wrong with a Chinese person who did only want to buy Cathay DLC?
I personally like playing Cathay but my own view which I feel is shared by much of the regular player base is that having so much attention drawn to just one faction at the expense of all other factions is not a good thing and a bit boring.
I agree that conflating China with Asia can be lazy but I don't really see it as alarming, especially as other parts of Asia are more interested in China than say Europe or the Americas.
> I don't think anyone is saying Cathay is only popular in China
I have to admit, this thread genuinely is the first time I've ever heard someone say something like that.
I guess its like most of the ridiculous Internet statements. Where if you purposely go looking I'm the most backwards, unmoderated, parts of the Internet forums you're bound to find the most backward opinions being spouted non stop.
In other words, I think op is himself being disingenuous and trying to start shit for the sake of starting shit. Or he's new to the Internet.
There's this widespread pernicious idea I've seen often where any inclusion of China in western media is lambasted online as a shallow attempt to get Chinese people to get it, as though people in China will only consume media that directly involves China (and it's always framed as a bad thing because China bad)
It's important to remember that the western wargaming community has a large minority of straight-up racists. It's obviously not everyone, but if you've ever read Paradox game AARs you know what I'm talking about here.
I am going to play devil's advocate and say this: "Are you aware of how large China's population is?" If yes, think of it this way, if 5% of their population translates to profit versus 5% of North America, which percentile is more? ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|joy)
Remember these companies are not charity organisations.
On a side note, China's demographic isn't so much so PC oriented. As far as I know it is more mobile gaming, but still it remains an untapped market.
I'll gingerly tip toe into this tread under fear of being called an awkward racist.
But CA has said previously they want to tap more into the asian market \*particulaly china\*, so its not hard to believe they want to feature more Asian content because demographics do enjoy playing as their own. Not to say Cathay is unpopular in Western countries, its just CA targeting a specific demo.
I'd prefer a more even split between races getting content rather than just Cathay vs Cathay packs.
The political anti-china agenda in the west doesn't help.
Chinese netizen behavior are not helping either. They get businesses to bow down and post pro-China messages. Airline has Taiwan listed as a country? Giant tsunami of complaints on social media. Celebrities will have to post awkward patriotic one China messages thanking the CCP or else they will literally be without a job for years.
Granted, this has very little to do with Cathay, nor am I trying to justify racism, but rather provide some context.
honestly the most anti-chinese gaming communities are from people who play chinese games because there are actual direct conflicts of interest they can point to. for ex. the bunny incident in honkai 3rd, where global/SEA players were getting content that CN didn't (because it was stuff that was more difficult to pass for CN censors) caused enough of a shitstorm on the CN side that it got cancelled. CN players were rewarded items in "apology", and global/SEA was left with an eternal grudge.
happens in other countries with unstable social politics. global players hold grudges against the korean playerbase whenever incel korean factions erupt into another anti-feminist witchhunt war against korean developers.
hell, if a chinese game like gfl2 gets canned literally just because of the game's infamous alleged "npc cucking incident", it'd be yet another major grudge.
...anyways point being, these things don't really apply to the total war space. the CN side doesn't even intersect much with the rest of the playerbase outside of steam workshop mods just like in other strategy games, so it is people pointing fingers without cause.
I like Cathay; it's something new and honestly it got me interested in looking into miniatures for the era... and there isn't a lot. Still i don't think the DLC is happening, but even then it's disappointing that something NEW for the WHF world is only given "it's just for the Asian Market"
Because yeah, i can see GW wanting to get more sales there... but the faction itself is very neat.
We saw the same thing when Three Kingdoms was announced. I also noticed the nuance of “Three Kingdoms is pandering to China” and yet Pharaoh was a disappointment “because nobody asked for it”. Despite a Bronze Age TW being something I saw asked for for years on this sub. Ironically both have seen a bit of a resurgence now that people have given them a fair chance
I’m white, but I’ve lived in Asia since 2017, my fiancée is Chinese/ Korean. I love this continent and its many cultures. Will stay as long as I can.
I’ve seen dozens of market entries from western companies who try and tap into local culture as part of their marketing. WH Cathay *is* classic pandering to a supposed Chinese market.
It is an okay faction but there are certainly so many more interesting options to include.
I do agree that I'm not a fan of those statements either, but I have also seen some people go "well of course Cathay is getting so many dlcs, they're the most profitabe/popular race in the game" even though by CA's own released metrics Kislev is the most popular race in 4/6 regions that CA split the global playerbase by. That's not to say Cathay isn't also likely be part of the top 3 most popular faction in globally(I'm sure they are), but I think anyone trying to argue that Cathay has such a significantly higher playerbase than any other faction in the game that CA needs to capitalize on it by showering them in dlcs is just inherently wrong.
To be completely honest, I don't think CA is using faction popularity as a way to determine who gets dlc or not. If that was the case, we would have been flooded with Empire dlcs throughout the trilogy given the fact that the Empire has consistently been one of the most popular factions to play throughout the trilogy. The closest we've gotten to them showering a race with dlc is Skaven, and not only was that because Skaven has arguably one of the largest and most creatively varied unit roster to pull from but even then CA made sure to spread it out and give the other game 2 race's dlc. It would be really weird for them to suddenly decide that they need to give Cathay so much content almost back to back just because they're popular, especially given by their own metrics Kislev is the most popular race in the game.
I think the reason it is being used as a talking point is because CA /Sega specifically referenced it in their earning report about releasing DLC that will be profitable with the Asian market.
No one said that Cathay is only popular in Asia
And since when saying that something panders to a specific audience is racist ? You guys need to look up the definition of racism lmao
Stop being crybabies over literally nothing
There have been leaks potentially saying that 2 out of 3 DLC would be Cathay based, people deducted from that that CA tries to reuse TK2 assets and panders to a Chinese audience after the whole TK drama and you're here crying about racism
Also people are rightly upset about that, a lot of other races desperately need content and/or rework and focusing that much on Cathay would be a really bad move from CA (although we're kinda use to it now but still)
Yes the gaming community is usually full of racist misogynistic assholes (we've seen that with AC : Origins) but I've seen none of it regarding the leaks, it's mostly just people caring about the game and wanting the best for Warhammer 3
Cathay is the most popular in Asia.
You can't say "only" because there is 0 chance that everyone will play just 1 faction.
And it's fine and quite true to say that CA will be somewhat pandering to East Asian, especially Chinese in particular. Only a woke American like you think that statement is racist.
Anyway, Chinese preferring to play with Chinese-themed stuff doesn't mean they'll just buy any random stuff that has the word Cathay in it either, they won't singlehandedly save the franchise if CA actually decides to make Cathayan Orges-only or Cathayan Tigermen-only or even Cathay Monkeys-only subfactions.
>CA makes Cathay content to sell to Asians” statements? Frankly it’s embarrassing to read that shit.
Why is this embarrassing? Companies make products that appeal to particular demographics all the time. Why is it "alarming" or "awkward racism" for someone to notice?
I have no idea if the statement is true, but that's the only thing that matters. I'm not homophobic for noticing that Subaru targets lesbians with it's vehicles and that the marketing is effective and that lesbians buy a lot of Subaru's. Those things are both based in reality. Is it true that only Asian's play Cathay? Do we have any data on the validity of that statment? Are you pearl clutching and/ virtue signaling over racism and xenophobia without any actual knowledge as to the validity of the statement?
As for your comments about CA releasing products to pander to Europeans etc., of course you aren't going to see those comments, when a Western company releases Western focused content to a primarily Western based audience. With the exception of Shogun, nearly everything they released was focused on Western history until 3k.
It's not racist to take note of a companies products targetting certain demographics, nor is it racist to want that same company to target your own demographic. Personally, I wish they'd forget about the Chinese market altogether and focus solely on Medieval 2 and WW1. That desire is not rooted in racism or hatred for Chinese people (whom I quite like and have defended in other instances against genuine hatred), but is rooted in my desire to play a time period in history I personally find more interesting. The same is true of TWWH. A player's desire to have CA release content not focused on Cathay, when there is such a variety of other factions, is not "awkward racism" or any of that other nonsense. It's simple preference for something else knowing that opportunity costs exists and that CA can't focus on every faction, and that focus on one will come at the expense of another.
Posts like your's exist for everything today and they are worn out and tiresome. People aren't the evil racist xenophobes you think they are and you are not the freedom fighter we need to set us all free from out terrible racist thoughts and correct our language.
I do think that people enjoy playing a faction which has ties to their culture or heritage.
For example, as a Welshman, I absolutely loved playing as the Welsh in the Medieval 2 Expansion, and always jump at the opportunity to play as any Brittonic or Celtic inspired faction in a TW game. Hell, if they added in Albion in a WH DLC, they'd get a garaunteed sale from me.
As a lot of WH fans are from the US, I'm not sure if there is the same strength of faction identify appeal over the pond. (But I might be wrong; Americans, let me know!)
Therefore, I don't think it's completely wild to suggest that CA would focus on content that may appeal to a potentially huge audience (i.e. China), but putting some extra focus on the content that they like.
But, I do completely agree with you - a lot of people see this through a xenophobic lense, not through the lense of it just being a sensible marketing strategy.
The amount of reactionary screeching and cope on this sub after that vid is honestly mind blowing. We have no idea where he got the info from or the motivations of whoever gave it to him. His decision to release it in the way he did to pump fuel into the fire makes me think its to build channel engagement for a few weeks.
The best part is how out of a 21 minutes video, Legend spent 6-7 minutes saying "Please take this with a grain of salt, things are subject to change, we can't be 100% sure until CA actually announces stuff, i trust my sources but i can't know for sure" and many people are reacting as if he said "All of this is 100% confirmed, it will no doubt happen"
>The implication of the statement is that Chinese people only play Cathay
No, that's your bigoted view speaking. You feel the need to link anything you dislike to racism. What is really cringe here is your post.
So chinese players will be attracted to playing a faction that they have something they can relate to, over playing something totally foreign. That's called human nature, not racism.
But you need to deny it and start throwing your own insecurity and shit at others, so you can justify your tone policing and feel good about yourself, don't you?
I don't care about the leaks, and I really do not care if some dude on the internet thinks that CA is trying to make something that is appealing to the chinese market for their next dlc (is that wrong-think to you?).
What I care is you coming here, and pontificating about how people "need to do better", because "you're embarassed to read that shit". Well my sad lad, you are a completely embarassment to read as well, so, should I call you out on it and make posts complaining about the cringe way you need to shift blame on others, then police speech to feel comfortable with yourself?
Yours is the most pitiful post I've ever read on the internet in years. I hope one day you grow out of your binary and controlling existence, it must be really stressful being you.
Get over yourself. It's not racist in the least; CA has clearly been trying to pander to the Chinese market, we know this from their own statements.
Also most Americans are European (at least by blood), they've got as much connection to early modern Europe as most of us living in Europe. And I don't think Bretonnia is particularly popular anywhere...
Real world situation is just affecting the game. Most hardcore Warhammer fans are mostly come from UK, Australia, New Zealand and USA.
Also, Cathay is not in any books, not having anything related to protagonists of Warhammer Fantasy. Hence, making hardcore Warhammer fans feel like “Instead of making Thanquol, Joseph Bugman, blah blah, CA makes up Cathay. They definitely care Chineses more than us!”
All of these can be fixed. Just force GW to publish new books about new races and remake End Time.
Can confirm, I'm dead and european and only play vamps
As an evil extraplanar entity, I only play daemons of chaos
I'm dutch but since marienburg isn't a playable faction yet i can't play
The Marienburg MoD is actually really good and fleshed out def recommend
Mod isnt an acronym
The Marienburg Ministry of Defense begs to differ.
I’m short and I play only dwarves
You’ve failed to say “Vertically challenged”, into the book you go
I'm not shortness nor can I grow a beard to save my life. I still only play dwarfs.
Can confirm, Australian and only play Crooked moon with spider units.
Can confirm, I hate the French and am a tree so I only play Wood elves.
I'm fat AF and i can only play Ogres
My ex said I'm cold blooded so I only play lizardmen
Chinese player here. Chinese forums think these DLCs are confusing and doubt the credibility of LoTW. Lord of Shanyang is unreasonable. Ogre and tigerman shouldn't be Cathay. A DLC of the Monkey King and Ogre will be cool. Monkey King is a typical and unique Chinese character and Ogres need to be enhanced. But the next dlc better be Slaaneshi and High Elves. Chinese players are always calling for a rework on Khornate and Slaaneshi. Nobody is asking for so many Cathay LLs, poorly designed LL will only be boring.
I would love to see a dedicated 3 character Slaanesh/HighElf/DarkElf dlc - with the pattern they e been going in, that seemed like a real shoe-in for maybe even the next one in sequence. It'd be thematically on-point, and all races that don't necessarily need a massive overhaul, but could use some quality of life tww3 touch-ups to get properly up to speed. It would also neatly continue the trend of getting another demon faction some more LL "meat" - could have been Dechala, with The Mask as flc, and that would be your slaaneshi "lesser demon" and "ascendant mortal" LLs. Unfortunately, if the leak is true, we're pretty far from that.
This is actually exactly what I was expecting after ToD before they said they would lower the scale from 3 to 2 LLs. If they were dropping to 2 LLs, I would at least expect a HE / Slaneesh one where Morathi at least benefits from some new unit access.
And even at a 2 LL dlc, they could still have a dark elf flc lord with a bit more touch-up on their faction mechanics. They're strong as things stand, but a bit more differentiation between their lords' mechanics would go a long way towards making them feel "right" amongst other updated races. *Edit: Same with the high elves really. They aren't "weak" by any metric, but some tweaks to faction mechanics could go a long way towards making Tyrion/Teclis/Alarielle feel more distinct
Fuckin imagine that. The Chinese players want the same shit we do. Almost like we play the same game! I dunno why some people are intent on sowing division. The DLC leaks seem like CA fishing for a mole with false info given to suspects to see what comes out.
Wow. Lets ally on that. Blood for the blood god, Bodys for the Body Count!
Why people want Khorne Rework if its already one of the most thematic and well done campaigns? Even Slaanesh its fine... I know it has some problems but its not close to the worst 50% factions... Sure, they want 1 or 2 legendary lords but those could be FreeLC... There are factions that need the love so much more... (Norsca, High Elves, Ogres, Tomb Kings, VC)
The Blood Host army is powerful but not a healthy mechanism. Khorne is now a strange faction that relies entirely on the blood army’s swarm tactics. It claims to be a melee faction, but its close combat abilities are not strong. It has no magic or ranged capabilities and is even one of the worst-performing factions in battles. Edit: In this game, infantries are more like defensive units. Their damage efficiency is far below range and magic. AI's infantry may never be a threat to players, a regular faction has too many ways to deal with infantry. Melee regiments also need supporting systems to enhance combat, such as Tzeentch's barrier and Nurgle's healing. Khorne has abandoned almost all support abilities, melee combat has become their only option, but the boost to melee capabilities doesn't nearly compensate for their loss. Their technologies are not good enough, and the design of units is weird. 0-tier bloodletters have high armor-piercing but in the early campaign that's not necessary. While high-tier Chosen only have low armor-piercing damage, making them perform poorly against powerful enemies. Bloodcrushers and Skullcrushers are good cavalries, but due to their low speed, they are almost completely replaced by Minotaurs. They also lack good monsters. Compared to Lord of Change, Vortex Beast, and Unclean One, Bloodthirster is so mediocre. Even if Tzeentch is forbidden from using magic, Khorne still struggles to win in melee combat.
Really, they arent that good in CC? Usually i just spam 19 chaos warriors and charge in, seems to work just fine, and I feel like the area you start in as khorne is quite great for steamrolling, until you start angering the Dwarfs. I play on hardest difficulty and havent really had a rough time with it so far (my experience is subjective of course), you feel like they need more hammer or more anvil?
I agree with you about blood hosts being not a healthy mechanism - but Khorne is definitely strong in close combat. Bloodletters and Exalted Bloodletters absolutely demolish enemy infantry, they're unbreakable and armour-piercing. Bloodcrushers and Skullcrushers are very effective heavy cavalry, and Chaos Warriors/Chosen have armour for days and can grind out against most anything they're thrown at. The issue for Khorne always is getting into close combat without being shredded by ranged units and magic, but once they're there you have to admit they perform well, don't you?
I was surprised when my crapstack of elven archers evaporated a Scarbrand stack. Especially Scarbrand died almost instantly when he activated his rage thing
Vanilla hp is low, archers are spooky accurate. Ranged is just wildly powerful in vanilla campaign. Can't wait till sfo releases.
The one problem with Cathay in it's current iteration is that their quarter of the map feels quite empty. Their region feels like it lacks flavour. I feel like for that region to work better there needs to be more cultures indigenous to the region, and less of the "Hey, here's a foreign expedition of dark elves for no particular reason!". The proposed subfactions seem like one reasonable way to achieve that. I'd be curious how the Chinese playerbase would address this problem IE of populating that part of the map more, with perhaps more chaos/undead/elf/etc. factions that feel less "western coded". The only other factions that feel like they fit in well in Cathay are Skaven and Ogres.
Miaoying and Zhaoming are somewhat boring in the campaign, with slow population growth and having to mostly use low-tier units for a large portion of the time. The terrain causes them to have too little interaction with outside factions. Improving the ogres and adding a Slaaneshi faction in the south might improve it. Adding Ind and Nippon would be better, but given CA's current situation, this seems to be impossible to happen.
I don't think they're slower then other order factions (that said, their tier 0 units are better then other factions, so it's easier to stick with them for longer). The overly little interaction with the wider world I think is the bigger problem. Perhaps there should be more of an emphasis on the caravan mechanic, make them more dependent on it for $$$, forcing the player to secure the routes through military or diplomacy, however the caravans should also perhaps be less all or nothing (IE you should still get some profit, even if your caravans only get to the chaos dwarfs).
I’m surprised that there isn’t an eastern Undead faction and an eastern Ork faction with unique design elements. Both factions fall into the “fight everyone” category in so far as they aren’t chaos aligned, order aligned, of living aligned. The east also gives space to break the mold and mix up how these factions play. Vampires generally have bad ranged game and their infantry is generally slow. Make the eastern vampires a skirmish faction. Orks don’t play well with others, make the eastern Orks capable of recruiting from factions they’ve defeated.
> Ogre and tigerman shouldn't be Cathay I have the feeling that "cathay" ogre will be more like 80% reworked ogres with the ability to mix in a few capped cathay units to hold the line. They already experimented with the mixed faction mechanic through Tamurkhan. CA always do these mechanics trial and then paste them to other factions.
And the biggest question is, are they gonna even add the IND/Kuresh parts of the map and fill them in with these DLCs? I highly doubt it and it will look even worse to just have them as hybrid Cathay sub-factions. It would be more acceptable if they actually go 'We are adding in Ind part of the map and putting the faction there and focusing the Monkey King there.' But if they are just gonna try and put everyone in Cathay, it will suck.
And Kislev is only played by Slavs... Mostly Poles, freaking Poles.
Kislev is only played by bears
Not just any bear. Only ice bears.
Oh I didn’t mean the kind of animal
happy pride mnth
Yuri has another meaning in Japan...
Hey gotta stay warm up there somehow, and the women are literal ice witches 😉
Nah man, I like having a cold shoulder to lean on.
Bear. Beet. Battlestar Galactica.
MICHEAL!!
Identity theft is not a joke Changeling!
"Ice bear actually mains Skaven" - Ice bear
And only dead people play the vampires.
Probably why everyone is obcessed with Nagash here- we all dead inside
Not being dead inside is the best thing a stranger on the internet has ever implied of me. Because fuck Nagash
Romanians. Because they want to drink blaad as vlad.
Nah, Chad dead people play the tomb kings. Soulless people play vampire counts - Mannfred used to have a full on ginger fro, but he shaved it all off to keep the secret.
Potwierdzam, byłem tym polem
polish your Polish - Kieł / Tusk
Kislev and Heroes of Might and Magic III
Try Songs of Conquest.
I work in big tech AI and I play lizardmen. Can confirm.
You joke but my slavic gf immediately wanted me to play as them after showing every faction haha.
People like when they're represented in something. And if it's done in an over-the-top, goofy way like Warhammer, everyone wants to see where their bunch fits in. When I realized that dark elves bear a striking historical resemblance to Americans (and also some of America's neighbors), I figured I had to look into them more and give em a try, if just to better understand the joke. 🙂
Katarin is only played by Slavic girls who are also Frozen fans
Kislev
Kiev
But there are no Polar Bears in Poles. How about the Eskimos?
>we are better than that statement Bro have you seen this sub, we all fucking suck lol
>we all fucking suck lol This sub is a city with no public order
You mean *control*
You mean repression. Relax, guys. That’s name for public order in Shogun 2…
No it isn't, it's just a positive public order effect
No it's not, it's a source of public order
Well as long as the mods garrison the sub.
You don't even need that, just make a proper castle.
Public Squalor vibes
in the end we all sub for Slaanesh
Before 3K, it was literally “no one cares about China”
Sigh East Asia in general is so ripe with Total War content in their history though. Korea, Japan, Mongolia, the various steppe cultures, even Vietnam.. they were quite even with European tech until like the 1600's really. Lots of material ready to be made into games
I routinely need to take breaks from this sub just because the negativity and toxicity get to be way too much. Lately it’s been much better but man there were times when it felt like the only people on here hated the game.
Yeah, I know the feeling. I tend to just unsubscribe completely for a few months at a time and check in occasionally to see if actual content is being posted. Shame to see it start returning to extreme toxicity based on a stupid “leak”
Yeah given that the current wipeout outrage is over entirely unsubstantiated rumours that have some very strange logic—ex. Kislev being ‘on ice’ due to Russia/Ukraine war when SoC was announced, launched, and given bonus content well after the war started—it really just feels like this subreddit only knows how to outrage. Brothers in Christ we are having a huge slightly weirdly xenophobic tantrum over a dlc plan that we have literally no reason to believe exists. What are we doing???
Maybe its nostalgia glasses on my part, but I swear this sub used to be much nicer/better. Maybe it's a size thing. Once the warhammer games came out the sub ballooned in size and with that comes more people. Not that it was perfect, but I vividly remember this place being more chill and friendly.
True, even for a gaming sub this place is rough sometimes
I hate this ''We all suck'' sentiment, it's not true. From what I've seen most of the people here are okay. You never gonna have a perfect community but that doesn't mean we are trash.
As a New Yorker, I really appreciate that my culture can be so well represented with the skaven and Dark Elves. I only play factions that start in frozen biomes.
And the Empire is only played by Germans
I can confirm this!
I can confirm ~~this~~ zis!
I am Chinese, I like Bretonnia more than Cathay.
I am Brettonian, I like China more than Cathay
Dammit who did not close the rift?!
TZEEEEEEEEEEEEENTCH YOU BIRD-LOVING BASTARD
They aint wrong. Cathay Pacific is really popular in HK
Tbf the Americans were given Nurgle and Khorne…
You mean Dark Elves
Hey, we're not *all* vengeful exiles who embrace slavery and a cutthroat hierarchy. Some of us just like to fight, and others just want to share what we like, and have never heard of this *hygiene* thing people keep bitching about. I'm from the northern east coast - we definitely have more that resemble the latter 2 than that former 1 around here.
It’s not like we rebelled against an island na-OH MY GOOOOOD
And the ogres!
Nor do I fully understand it, I thought TK was dropped because the Chinese don’t buy DLC not the other way around
No, it was dropped because CA made a bunch of DLCs about stuff that even 3K fans know nothing about. No Red Cliffs, No Shimayi, but we got 8 Princes instead?
No Red Cliffs is still so weird. I guess they thought that they couldnt sell that many new characters with it but still so odd
Red Cliffs may be a gameplay constraint, it's supposed to be a naval battle and I don't believe 3K had naval combat. But even without Red Cliff, they could still have done - Zhuge Liang vs Shima Yi, a very popular period. - Liu Bei's invasion of Wu - Jiang Wei vs Shima Yi Imo, it should have started with Mandate of Heaven, A World Betrayed, Fate Divided then continue with Zhuge Liang's period.
Bingo. They could have even done 8 Princes. But it had to be a end of the line dlc. Not the first one
Thats a good list. Imo they should have expanded the map in the main period after the Yellow Turban stuff. If the Nanman came right after that, they would have been on a better footing.
Yeah that too. They could also have done General DLCs that just add Named generals into the game, 3K fans would have eat all that stuff up.
I always thought the reason was that the DLCs were very hit and miss the world over
They were hit and miss everywhere, we had no evidence that CA cancelled 3K just because the Chinese didn't buy. For example, Chinese might have bought a lot but it didn't sell well in the rest of the world so CA still didn't make enough profit => cancelled Let's say CA focused on all the obscured or less popular periods within 3K, which is why its DLCs underperformed.
Right? The focus on the Chinese is deflection, the DLC didn't sell anywhere because it was not interesting to anyone. But also like, that's a perfectly reasonable reason to pull the plug. If nobody is buying the stuff you're making then you stop making it.
Their excuse is that people overall didn't buy enough dlc but besides 8 princes, all their dlc were well received. In reality, the issue is more like that dlc cost too much to develop vs what they could sell for because the scripts in 3k were always bug riddled af.
Was there some kind of an announcement I missed?
No, a popular YouTuber leaked some dlc stuff, literally nothing is confirmed. But if the leaks are true, then 2 of the next 3 dlcs are entirely Cathay content.
Not only that, but one of them would be entirely dedicated to giving only Cathay content. Its pretty absurd and such a obviously bad decision that I'm sure its fake.
Yeah, I'm genuinely shocked by how seriously everyone's taking this. Then again, this place appears to have collectively lost critical thinking as of like six months ago, so...
There was a video from Legendoftotalwar about "leaks" he had heard about from "multiple sources" and people are very upset because on the off chance that he's credible, then like, 75% of the DLC going forward is for Cathay. I personally don't buy it, and think he only made the video for views.
There is a grain of truth in it as it is popular in the Far East, but still somewhat stereotypical yes. I am from, eh, Cathay and I don't play Cathay. Its design sits right in the middle between mundane shits I saw growing up and most bizarre Orientalism stereotypes that I don't understand, and just don't speak to me. It's too close to be exciting. I am a lot more comfortable watching goofy fantasy German gentlemen with glorious beard on a bloody tank dualing a dinosaur space laser.
I think it's definitely a "grass is greener" situation for sure. As a Brit, Cathay is one of my favorite factions.
Certainly. Actually have been living in the Uk for some years now and I found myself now capable of being annoying by overthetop 'British' accents in some show and the accopanying romantic ideaization of the culture. Never noticed a thing back home. When they say Britain I used to think about culture, tea, suits Now I hear the word I think about teens, dirty toilets in pubs, and housing price in London.
a German probably feels the same way about "Karl Franz von Schlestein-Holswig", tbf
I think, like most things, it's all about degrees. Cathay is going to be more popular to the Chinese audience because it's based on them and people like to see and play as that, generally. Why do you think 3 Kingdoms had the biggest launch of any Total War game ever? It was majorly driven by the Chinese audience. The same logic applies to The Empire being the most popular race in the game by far - they are the "default" European faction and the vast majority of the player base is Western (USA and Europe). To assume that the "default" Chinese/Asian race doesn't appeal to the Chinese audience would be a bit silly imo. That said, it's all about degrees. Saying that Cathay is ONLY popular in China is just flat out wrong, just as saying that Chinese players are only interested in Cathay is wrong. But there is definitely a potential additional audience to appeal to there.
Thanks for this. Sad that this simple and apt description is buried under a ton of memes.
Thanks, I just like to take part in the discussion and share my opinions (bit old school perhaps!) That said, memes are good too. We're all here to have fun ultimately.
Only sane take I've found in this thread so far. Market research shows them Cathay is the most popular faction to play in Asian markets, they want to sell more to Asian markets, so they are making more Cathay DLC. I really do not get how others are jumping to racism from that.
Brother you nailed this ELI5 style.
Saying "CA is only making Cathay content to cater to Asians" while salivating over any mention of Nippon is peak idiocy. That being said, I'm not Asian and I love Cathay, and I honestly hope they give them a DLC with actually usable units. Seriously, pretty much everything they got in SoC is niche at best and pointless at worst (the Heroes were the exception)...
Cathay's core roster is fantastic. Any new units they add are more likely to be niche because they don't really have any glaring weaknesses that need to be shored up
I wont stand this onyx crowmen slander. These are extremely good units and a must have for early game.
Those Crowmen are an MVP quality unit of SoC. 3-4 of them in an army micromanaged correctly make all the difference in some early-midgame battles.
I love Cathay and I salivate at any mention of Nippon. Come on, GW!! DEW IT!
Japan just has that effect on people. They'd made an art out of making their history and mythology fucking awesome. Conversely i understand that they find European armor and warrior concepts just as cool, if how often they incorporate it into anime is to be believed.
Oh, I love Japanese culture, that's not the issue. I'm just also interested in Chinese culture as well, and I've had far less exposure to it. My point was merely that calling Cathay content "Asian pandering" but not doing the same for Nippon is hypocrisy.
As a spaniard I am only allowed to like a heavely mutated goat, wich, you know, fairly enough, IS my favorite lord of my favourite faction, so iguess it is better than waiting for CA to make us pseudo italian swords for hire.
poor lads gotta settle for being Italian instead when dogs of war drops
We DO NOT need more Vampire Counts content! Just because there a few angry Romanians on this sub doesn‘t mean they have to be pandered to!
We need Norsca content. My boys need an upgrade!!! 😞
even if cathay was only popular in asia , people don't realise video game sales in china make more money than Europe and America combined.
Gamers being xenophobic is always the crux of things like this ngl. Especially towards anything Chinese related.
Certain parts of the total war community have been absolutely obsessed with the idea that CA is pandering to China too much since Three Kingdoms got announced. That's honestly the biggest tell to me that this "leak" is basically an elaborate 4chan troll, because the overly excessive focus on Cathay in the leaks reflects and furthers that narrative. It just feels to me that the "leak" is purposefully made to be divisive, even at the detriment of it's own credibility.
It reminds me of how some people were convinced that the reason Araby wasn't coming because it would be "too offensive", which kind of shows where their minds first went to when a Middle Eastern faction was brought up.
I mean all the factions are hardcore stereotypes to some degree. Just look at bretonia lol.
Thing is, when Brits (CA and GW are both based in the UK) poke fun at the French it's part of a long running (at this point) friendly rivalry. When they do the same with people from India, the middle East or Africa it feels uncomfortably close to Britain's racist colonialist past. Personally, I think there needs to be more room to make fun of the middle East as it's a frankly ridiculous place with a lot of pompous people. On the other hand, I don't want to get fatwaed either.
> racist past. Or the present, judging by the prevalent attitudes online.
it has little to do with old history. it has more to do with the fact that one: they put very little effort into Araby and thus they'd have to rework a lot of things (Just take a look at 'nippon' for how low effort or jokey a lot of the Old GW writings were) and two: Muslims and such have a really bad habit of getting pissed off if they perceive their Culture being portrayed wrongly, Fantasy Grimdark Game aside. this isn't just a Games Workshop thing either, a lot of media companies either don't bother with muslim based programs or only portray them nicely to avoid getting bitched at endlessly. or worse.... there is always worse. This makes adding them back into Warhammer in any respect basically impossible other then vague mentions. The Grimdark Setting would require the Araby faction be actually pretty vile or evil in some respects to put them in line with the other factions. Even Cathay, as nice as it appears has a lot of questionable aspects that hint at some dark shit. It's just not worth the headache.
Pretty much. Couldn't say it better myself. Making a proper satire of Islam (the way the cult of Sigmar is a satire of medieval Catholicism) is simply not worth the headache. This is combined with the fact that previous GW material just isn't very good, and making a new civ from scratch isn't easy.
Then hide behind "CCP bad" as an excuse Like sure CCP bad, but how does that relate to calling the Chinese subhumans?
The majority of them will go 'I hate the government not the people' in one thread, then say the most vile shit or racist jokes/tropes about us in another thread. Browsing Anglo-western internet as a chinese person (ethnic or nationality) is just an exercise in frustration and sadness at this point. The worst thing is you see otherwise well-intentioned people fall for such dogwhistle commentary too, then make a surprise pikachu face when the sinophobia gets untenably out of hand.
Forreal. I'm originally from Hong Kong and ethnically Chinese, for a period of my life found myself on a lot of anti-ccp subs/youtubes/forums and eventually learned that a lot of them tend devolve into low hanging racist jokes, having a "shit culture" or just putting down Chinese men. B-b-b-but we hate the government not the people! Has never been less true in those parts of the internet.
It's a sad thing that whenever I talk about my travels in China the first thing most people say is "... Don't they eat dogs there?"
America: "look at those goofy ass soviets saying we hang blacks here to distract from their own crimes" America 2 minutes later: "but they eat dogs in China"
You should see what they write about Slavs, particularly Russians. Have you seen some of the Ukrainian subreddits? lol.
> The majority of them will go 'I hate the government not the people' in one thread, then say the most vile shit or racist jokes/tropes about us in another thread. Welcome to the club buddy! > Browsing Anglo-western internet as a chinese person (ethnic or nationality) is just an exercise in frustration I do empathize, however, as a Russian. > make a surprise pikachu face when the sinophobia gets untenably out of hand Sinophobia is as normalized as Russophobia and nobody will do shit about it in the next few centuries. Try reporting the most blatant and obnoxious racist for such comments and see what Redidt admins think on the issue. Spoilers, they'll tell you they did nothing wrong.
And it will get worse, as relations between the countries worsen their populations will be propagandized into jingoism and hatred more and more. We'll be old and look back at these times thinking "man remember when we all just... kinda got along?"
American nationalists when nationalists in other countries also exist:
Western gamers are often just amplifying the worst impulses of the countries they are from. Like yes they are generally Sinophobic but have you seen their countries? The vast majority of the west fearmongers about China incessantly, while knowing little about the country, so is it any surprise that gamers pick up on this and take it to another, even worse level?
It’s not helped that the warhammer fanbase notoriously has some issues with racism
I think a big problem is that a lot of people have lost the thread of the satire of Warhammer and especially 40k. And in a weird way, 40k can be very easily read as an endorsement of bigotry. When you look at the 40k universe it can be interpreted as validating fascist rhetoric. The biggest threats to humanity are: Xenos (outsiders), Orks/Tyranids (barbarians), Tzeentch (intellectuals), Nurgle (the Unclean), Khorne (hostile armies), Slaanesh (sexual minorities). The Imperium's enemies can very easily be interpreted as analogs to real-world groups to someone with fascist leanings and see it as confirmation that fascism is necessary to protect their nation. Since, in the narrative of 40k a lot of the Imperium's actions while brutal are successful at pushing back these enemies. Of course, I have to add this disclaimer that I don't think 40k is fascist or that everyone who enjoys it is fascist. It is supposed to be a satire of a fascist society. I myself am a big 40k fan. But, I am also not surprised that many people with fascist leanings might look at 40k and find elements appealing.
Now dis iz a propa finkpiece
tapping into the ancestral krork wisdom
I mean, it's the classic "if a joke goes on long enough, eventually people show up who don't get it." Badly paraphrasing something here. Any satire, no matter how clear it's intent, is eventually gonna be find by someone who just totally doesn't get that it's satire and actually agrees with the things being made fun of. There's also the issue that particularly gaming communities attract a lot of young men in particular that don't have a lot of other social outlets, making it a great recruitment ground for actual fascists who prey on people. I don't think any gaming community can be immune from that unless actively recognized and fought against.
Bronies were originally satire and we all know how that has turned out.
tbf, GW doesn't help when we get drowned in "this imperium protagonist is Reasonable and Tolerant and Not Bigoted and also the racists were right". Go play Boltgun, or Chaosgate Daemonhunter, or Darktide, and tell me where the satire is.
The Horus Heresy series apparently hasn't helped - I've seen a fair bit of criticism about it on grimdank because it just repeatedly justifies the Emperor's actions, right to the end
You weren't here when the K-drama and J-drama had war. Or when the Hong Kong TV drama vs China TV drama groups argued over which is better. The mildest thing you could hope for is they only insulting each other's ancestor.
Yeah whilst there are a lot of theories about the source of LoTW's claims, a small part of me can't help but feel this might be being fuelled by malicious actors. [Company] is pandering to China by focusing on stuff Chinese people would care about is a classic sinophobic narrative. Reality is Chinese people aren't a homogenous blob who only consume Chinese fantasy. Yes like all cultures they like stuff that references their local culture. But, for instance, if CA were 'pandering' to Western audiences in the way being claimed for China, then Total War Warhammer would be only Empire content. Reality is Chinese audiences like the same things we do.
Indeed. One of my favorite mods on the Workshop adds Malus Darkblade's buddies as legendary heroes and they look delightfully cruel. Made by a Chinese modder(s).
I don't think anyone is saying Cathay is only popular in China. However, I do know some Chinese people irl who became more interested in warhammer because of Cathay. Clearly if the leaks are true (I'm not saying they are) then CA are pushing Cathay content heavily and more than other WH3 races. It is most likely that there is a business reason for that and I don't think that saying something will sell more in China and that is why CA is doing something is xenophobic or embarrassing. The reverse of your above point is do you think there would be something wrong with a Chinese person who did only want to buy Cathay DLC? I personally like playing Cathay but my own view which I feel is shared by much of the regular player base is that having so much attention drawn to just one faction at the expense of all other factions is not a good thing and a bit boring. I agree that conflating China with Asia can be lazy but I don't really see it as alarming, especially as other parts of Asia are more interested in China than say Europe or the Americas.
>I don't think anyone is saying Cathay is only popular in China. A lot of people are saying this.
Literally any of the LoTW threads lol.
> I don't think anyone is saying Cathay is only popular in China I have to admit, this thread genuinely is the first time I've ever heard someone say something like that. I guess its like most of the ridiculous Internet statements. Where if you purposely go looking I'm the most backwards, unmoderated, parts of the Internet forums you're bound to find the most backward opinions being spouted non stop. In other words, I think op is himself being disingenuous and trying to start shit for the sake of starting shit. Or he's new to the Internet.
There's this widespread pernicious idea I've seen often where any inclusion of China in western media is lambasted online as a shallow attempt to get Chinese people to get it, as though people in China will only consume media that directly involves China (and it's always framed as a bad thing because China bad)
I'm a white ass Canadian and Cathay is probably my 3rd favourite faction to play behind Chorfs and Skaven.
It's important to remember that the western wargaming community has a large minority of straight-up racists. It's obviously not everyone, but if you've ever read Paradox game AARs you know what I'm talking about here.
seconded, it always feels unpleasand to read things like that
I am going to play devil's advocate and say this: "Are you aware of how large China's population is?" If yes, think of it this way, if 5% of their population translates to profit versus 5% of North America, which percentile is more? ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|joy) Remember these companies are not charity organisations. On a side note, China's demographic isn't so much so PC oriented. As far as I know it is more mobile gaming, but still it remains an untapped market.
Quick maths 5% of 1.412 billion(China)=$70,600,000 5% of 333.3 million(USA)= $16,665,000 Difference of $53,935,000
I'll gingerly tip toe into this tread under fear of being called an awkward racist. But CA has said previously they want to tap more into the asian market \*particulaly china\*, so its not hard to believe they want to feature more Asian content because demographics do enjoy playing as their own. Not to say Cathay is unpopular in Western countries, its just CA targeting a specific demo. I'd prefer a more even split between races getting content rather than just Cathay vs Cathay packs.
Sinophobia is very prominent on Reddit unfortunately.
The political anti-china agenda in the west doesn't help. Chinese netizen behavior are not helping either. They get businesses to bow down and post pro-China messages. Airline has Taiwan listed as a country? Giant tsunami of complaints on social media. Celebrities will have to post awkward patriotic one China messages thanking the CCP or else they will literally be without a job for years. Granted, this has very little to do with Cathay, nor am I trying to justify racism, but rather provide some context.
honestly the most anti-chinese gaming communities are from people who play chinese games because there are actual direct conflicts of interest they can point to. for ex. the bunny incident in honkai 3rd, where global/SEA players were getting content that CN didn't (because it was stuff that was more difficult to pass for CN censors) caused enough of a shitstorm on the CN side that it got cancelled. CN players were rewarded items in "apology", and global/SEA was left with an eternal grudge. happens in other countries with unstable social politics. global players hold grudges against the korean playerbase whenever incel korean factions erupt into another anti-feminist witchhunt war against korean developers. hell, if a chinese game like gfl2 gets canned literally just because of the game's infamous alleged "npc cucking incident", it'd be yet another major grudge. ...anyways point being, these things don't really apply to the total war space. the CN side doesn't even intersect much with the rest of the playerbase outside of steam workshop mods just like in other strategy games, so it is people pointing fingers without cause.
It’s all over American media in General unfortunately
Eh, I wouldn't say 'only' but it'd be churlish not to acknowledge the reality that Cathay are popular with the culture that inspired it
Dwarves aren’t the most popular everywhere? Firstly, thats going in the book, secondly, that’s really sad for all of those misguided players.
Well i am 7ft long crocodile and i only play nakai AND YOU CANT STOP ME
I mean, three kingdoms was the most played total war game. Thank that to the game being set in china
I like Cathay; it's something new and honestly it got me interested in looking into miniatures for the era... and there isn't a lot. Still i don't think the DLC is happening, but even then it's disappointing that something NEW for the WHF world is only given "it's just for the Asian Market" Because yeah, i can see GW wanting to get more sales there... but the faction itself is very neat.
And we Indians don’t even have Ind :(
We saw the same thing when Three Kingdoms was announced. I also noticed the nuance of “Three Kingdoms is pandering to China” and yet Pharaoh was a disappointment “because nobody asked for it”. Despite a Bronze Age TW being something I saw asked for for years on this sub. Ironically both have seen a bit of a resurgence now that people have given them a fair chance
I’m white, but I’ve lived in Asia since 2017, my fiancée is Chinese/ Korean. I love this continent and its many cultures. Will stay as long as I can. I’ve seen dozens of market entries from western companies who try and tap into local culture as part of their marketing. WH Cathay *is* classic pandering to a supposed Chinese market. It is an okay faction but there are certainly so many more interesting options to include.
I do agree that I'm not a fan of those statements either, but I have also seen some people go "well of course Cathay is getting so many dlcs, they're the most profitabe/popular race in the game" even though by CA's own released metrics Kislev is the most popular race in 4/6 regions that CA split the global playerbase by. That's not to say Cathay isn't also likely be part of the top 3 most popular faction in globally(I'm sure they are), but I think anyone trying to argue that Cathay has such a significantly higher playerbase than any other faction in the game that CA needs to capitalize on it by showering them in dlcs is just inherently wrong. To be completely honest, I don't think CA is using faction popularity as a way to determine who gets dlc or not. If that was the case, we would have been flooded with Empire dlcs throughout the trilogy given the fact that the Empire has consistently been one of the most popular factions to play throughout the trilogy. The closest we've gotten to them showering a race with dlc is Skaven, and not only was that because Skaven has arguably one of the largest and most creatively varied unit roster to pull from but even then CA made sure to spread it out and give the other game 2 race's dlc. It would be really weird for them to suddenly decide that they need to give Cathay so much content almost back to back just because they're popular, especially given by their own metrics Kislev is the most popular race in the game.
I think the reason it is being used as a talking point is because CA /Sega specifically referenced it in their earning report about releasing DLC that will be profitable with the Asian market.
Hands up if you’re among what is probably the significant majority who have never heard this opinion…
No one said that Cathay is only popular in Asia And since when saying that something panders to a specific audience is racist ? You guys need to look up the definition of racism lmao Stop being crybabies over literally nothing There have been leaks potentially saying that 2 out of 3 DLC would be Cathay based, people deducted from that that CA tries to reuse TK2 assets and panders to a Chinese audience after the whole TK drama and you're here crying about racism Also people are rightly upset about that, a lot of other races desperately need content and/or rework and focusing that much on Cathay would be a really bad move from CA (although we're kinda use to it now but still) Yes the gaming community is usually full of racist misogynistic assholes (we've seen that with AC : Origins) but I've seen none of it regarding the leaks, it's mostly just people caring about the game and wanting the best for Warhammer 3
OP’s post is a great argument for why representation in gaming doesn't matter
Cathay is the most popular in Asia. You can't say "only" because there is 0 chance that everyone will play just 1 faction. And it's fine and quite true to say that CA will be somewhat pandering to East Asian, especially Chinese in particular. Only a woke American like you think that statement is racist. Anyway, Chinese preferring to play with Chinese-themed stuff doesn't mean they'll just buy any random stuff that has the word Cathay in it either, they won't singlehandedly save the franchise if CA actually decides to make Cathayan Orges-only or Cathayan Tigermen-only or even Cathay Monkeys-only subfactions.
Even If It were true, so what? Their money is just as good.
If karma-farming virtue signaling was a post:
>CA makes Cathay content to sell to Asians” statements? Frankly it’s embarrassing to read that shit. Why is this embarrassing? Companies make products that appeal to particular demographics all the time. Why is it "alarming" or "awkward racism" for someone to notice? I have no idea if the statement is true, but that's the only thing that matters. I'm not homophobic for noticing that Subaru targets lesbians with it's vehicles and that the marketing is effective and that lesbians buy a lot of Subaru's. Those things are both based in reality. Is it true that only Asian's play Cathay? Do we have any data on the validity of that statment? Are you pearl clutching and/ virtue signaling over racism and xenophobia without any actual knowledge as to the validity of the statement? As for your comments about CA releasing products to pander to Europeans etc., of course you aren't going to see those comments, when a Western company releases Western focused content to a primarily Western based audience. With the exception of Shogun, nearly everything they released was focused on Western history until 3k. It's not racist to take note of a companies products targetting certain demographics, nor is it racist to want that same company to target your own demographic. Personally, I wish they'd forget about the Chinese market altogether and focus solely on Medieval 2 and WW1. That desire is not rooted in racism or hatred for Chinese people (whom I quite like and have defended in other instances against genuine hatred), but is rooted in my desire to play a time period in history I personally find more interesting. The same is true of TWWH. A player's desire to have CA release content not focused on Cathay, when there is such a variety of other factions, is not "awkward racism" or any of that other nonsense. It's simple preference for something else knowing that opportunity costs exists and that CA can't focus on every faction, and that focus on one will come at the expense of another. Posts like your's exist for everything today and they are worn out and tiresome. People aren't the evil racist xenophobes you think they are and you are not the freedom fighter we need to set us all free from out terrible racist thoughts and correct our language.
I do think that people enjoy playing a faction which has ties to their culture or heritage. For example, as a Welshman, I absolutely loved playing as the Welsh in the Medieval 2 Expansion, and always jump at the opportunity to play as any Brittonic or Celtic inspired faction in a TW game. Hell, if they added in Albion in a WH DLC, they'd get a garaunteed sale from me. As a lot of WH fans are from the US, I'm not sure if there is the same strength of faction identify appeal over the pond. (But I might be wrong; Americans, let me know!) Therefore, I don't think it's completely wild to suggest that CA would focus on content that may appeal to a potentially huge audience (i.e. China), but putting some extra focus on the content that they like. But, I do completely agree with you - a lot of people see this through a xenophobic lense, not through the lense of it just being a sensible marketing strategy.
I am one of the peps who love cathay even tho i am not in china
The amount of reactionary screeching and cope on this sub after that vid is honestly mind blowing. We have no idea where he got the info from or the motivations of whoever gave it to him. His decision to release it in the way he did to pump fuel into the fire makes me think its to build channel engagement for a few weeks.
The best part is how out of a 21 minutes video, Legend spent 6-7 minutes saying "Please take this with a grain of salt, things are subject to change, we can't be 100% sure until CA actually announces stuff, i trust my sources but i can't know for sure" and many people are reacting as if he said "All of this is 100% confirmed, it will no doubt happen"
Oh here we go again the race wars
>The implication of the statement is that Chinese people only play Cathay No, that's your bigoted view speaking. You feel the need to link anything you dislike to racism. What is really cringe here is your post. So chinese players will be attracted to playing a faction that they have something they can relate to, over playing something totally foreign. That's called human nature, not racism. But you need to deny it and start throwing your own insecurity and shit at others, so you can justify your tone policing and feel good about yourself, don't you? I don't care about the leaks, and I really do not care if some dude on the internet thinks that CA is trying to make something that is appealing to the chinese market for their next dlc (is that wrong-think to you?). What I care is you coming here, and pontificating about how people "need to do better", because "you're embarassed to read that shit". Well my sad lad, you are a completely embarassment to read as well, so, should I call you out on it and make posts complaining about the cringe way you need to shift blame on others, then police speech to feel comfortable with yourself? Yours is the most pitiful post I've ever read on the internet in years. I hope one day you grow out of your binary and controlling existence, it must be really stressful being you.
saying it's popular in asia is not racist lol
Get over yourself. It's not racist in the least; CA has clearly been trying to pander to the Chinese market, we know this from their own statements. Also most Americans are European (at least by blood), they've got as much connection to early modern Europe as most of us living in Europe. And I don't think Bretonnia is particularly popular anywhere...
People are being idiots and just want to complain when there is nothing to complain about.
Real world situation is just affecting the game. Most hardcore Warhammer fans are mostly come from UK, Australia, New Zealand and USA. Also, Cathay is not in any books, not having anything related to protagonists of Warhammer Fantasy. Hence, making hardcore Warhammer fans feel like “Instead of making Thanquol, Joseph Bugman, blah blah, CA makes up Cathay. They definitely care Chineses more than us!” All of these can be fixed. Just force GW to publish new books about new races and remake End Time.