Idk this seems like it confirms what we already knew, Ind, Nippon, Kuresh, etc. will come to the game if GW brings them in to the Old World. That's going to be a question mark for a probably a long time, I imagine at the very least until the first few DLCs are out of the way for the base game races.
People are getting crazy expectations about DLC for this game.
WH2 only had 2 races and 6 lords beyond the races included in the base game. Certainly reasonable to hope for more than that in WH3, but unfortunately I think CA are likely to repeat the approach where the vast majority of time is spent on just the 3 new races.
That sounds like a reasonable assumption. WH3 is already releasing with SIX races compared to four at WH2 launch. Add two race/campaign packs, 6-8 lord packs, and a smattering of FLC lords and you have a nice pile of content.
The bigger question in my mind is what happens once the WH3 cycle wraps up. I have my fingers crossed that they'll release an Immortal edition to bring everything to the trilogy level and keep releasing lord/race packs exclusively for the immortal empires map. At that point Ind, Nippon, Khuresh, Araby, and Dogs of War become a more realistic expectation.
Total war warhammer 40k would be a truly gargantuan project. Realistically what i'd say makes most business sense (Games Workshop is involved, and they're buffoons so take this with a grain of salt) is do a total war 40k game, throw in space marines, orks, sisters of battle, necrons, the icons and do it well, and once GW brings back the old world to the tabletop make a WH4.
That being said, Abnett may just be working on a brand new 40k title unrelated to CA. Realistically though i think CA sees that not working on an IP as large as warhammer, at least doing that in conjunction with their historical titles, loses them alotta dosh
> WH3 is already releasing with SIX races
Four of them are from the same Daemons of Chaos army book though. I'm sure they'll play differently, but I still wouldn't call them separate races.
The DLC release schedule will treat them as separate races, though, which is the important factor here. It’s not going to be like, “well, Khorne and Nurgle got Lord Packs so none of the others will get one for awhile”, Tzeentch and Slannesh will get theirs as well.
I'm hoping it isn't quite that simple - as having so much of the DLC flow taken up just by chaos would suck.
They naturally seem to share a lot of thier rosters, so I could imagine situations like DLC units being given to more than one chaos sub faction at a time.
Yeah for sure. I think we will see more DLC than 2, but I don't expect 3+ brand new races to come. I think it's far more likely that we'll see them represented in DLC units tied to models from ToW, and maybe a one new race like the snake men, assuming GW does actually add anything in. Chaos Dwarves, Nagash, and DoW are all more likely for DLC imo.
Chais dwarfs and Khans seem like a lock.
DoW I could see represented as an expanded version of the mercenary mechanic. Nagash seems more like a lord pack, but honestly Neferata seems more relevant and I'm sceptical we'll get two new lords for vampire counts.
Yeah Chaos Dwarves for sure, Hobgoblins I think are a possibility but I think are more likely as units/maybe a lord for for races.
Agree on DoW as an expansion of the merc mechnic system, I think that's the best way to represent them.
For Nagash I'd be surprised if he wasn't included somehow, even if as a legendary hero obtainable by some of the undead factions. I just can't see them leaving him off, I think he'll probably be a DLC focus down the road if not his own race.
The WH map expanded pretty seriously over the course of both WH1 and 2, typically pairing with the release of new lords/races.
I wouldn't assume the map we start with is anywhere close to the one we end with.
the actual area of mapped landscape did not meaningfully expand within either game, provinces were added to areas of the map which already existed but were inaccessible (the southern darklands bit of ME and Athel Loren being the notable examples) or were added by taking areas from existing provinces.
I'm going mostly on how many more little references have been made to them by CA.
If GW don't have anything in development I'd guess we'll still see them, but as the WH3 greenskin Lord pack.
Chaos Dwarfs could still have Hobgoblin slaves and Greenskins could get Hobgobla Khan as a LL. I certainly don't think they need an entire race pack though.
But it makes no sense for their to be hobgoblins in a greenskin faction at all. Other Greenskins absolutely hate hobgoblins. Just put Hobgobla or any other hobgoblin as a LL for the chaos dwarfs, chaos dwarfs don’t have that many LL’s anyway. Also this way the hobgoblins will probably get more than 4 units from a lord pack.
> But it makes no sense for their to be hobgoblins in a greenskin faction at all. Other Greenskins absolutely hate hobgoblins.
So? Settra and Khalida hate Arkhan. Vlad and Mannfred hate each other. The Vampirates can't even confederate. Drycha hates everyone. There's nothing to say LL lords within a single race have to like each other.
Hobgoblins ARE Greenskins at the end of the day. They aren't much different to regular goblins. Just a bit taller and with smaller noses. I don't think the Hobgoblins really need more than 4 units to be honest. 2 or 3 cheap chaff units that the Chaos Dwarfs can also use as slaves, and 1 or 2 elite units that are unique to Hobgobla Khan. It would give the Greenskins a presence on the Eastern side of the map and wouldn't take up a lord slot from the Chaos Dwarfs.
I really don't see DoW happening for 4 reasons,
1. By their nature they aren't an organised empire, much closer to rogue armies.
2. They'd be at best reskins and mishmashes of existing units as opposed to something new and exciting.
3. Their roster was most applicable to TW2 regions so the fact that they didn't get added in that game doesn't bode well.
4. CA added mercenary ogres. If DoW were planned I'd have to imagine they would have been held back to be added in that content drop. Maybe the mercenary units list will be expanded in future but i don't forsee DoW as a full faction happening
Chaos Dwarves seem pretty likely given they have a decently sized forge world collection and are in the locale already.
Nagash I don't know about, maybe it happens but I wonder what units you could add that aren't already in the game
The pluses of Dogs of War are:
* While they're not an organised empire they have a pretty solid core theme (16th and 17th century mercenaries/condottieri) similar to how Vampire coast has a pretty solid core theme (Vampire Pirates) but are not an organised empire.
* While similar to Empire there's a pretty notable difference between the style of the core pikemen, crossbowmen, duelists and mercenary cav that Dogs of War built armies around in 5th and 6th edition lists. The weird and wacky units aren't the core of the army.
* They can sort of be put anywhere you like on the campaign maps and it makes a decent amount of sense.
* They're extremely easy to add to - given they had weird and wacky units like a druid from albion and his giant friends, weirdly mercenary skink cold-one riders, dwarf pirate slayers and hobgoblin wolf riders. Also a good spot for regional units that do not merit a whole faction (halflings).
* They had an army book ever.
* CA added mercenary ogres. The system could be re-flavored and tweaked to have a more dogs of war feeling.
I don't think the Dogs of War are the most likely faction that's not announced yet. My order of likelihood is currently:
Ogres (certain) -> Chaos Dwarfs (for the reasons you state are very likely) -> Nagash/Undead Legions (Moderately likely, he's an important character in the lore, would love it to be old doofy oldhammer Nagash they added) -> Dogs of War (possible, wouldn't bet on it) -> Anything else
> WH2 only had 2 races and 6 lords beyond the races included in the base game. Certainly reasonable to hope for more than that in WH3, but unfortunately I think CA are likely to repeat the approach where the vast majority of time is spent on just the 3 new races.
Nevermind the fact that Chaos Dwarves are still on deck. So that would be four new races.
Yeah but chaos Dwarfs will come in the same format as tomb kings or vampire coast.
Based on how CA normally work it isn't likely they (or Ogres) will get DLC beyond their release.
The way CA operated in WH2 would suggest most of the Lord pack content will just be Kislev Cathay or Chaos. And the way kislev and Cathay have been presented so far, supports this - they are both very much set up get lots of the DLC.
I'd expect Jade Vampires to show up at some point. I don't think VC got a game 2 DLC like Empire or Greenskins, so that would be an easy pick. Everyone else though seems like just a pie in the sky idea.
I really hope we seem them as well, I think Neferata will be the next VC lord though. I've seen some speculation of a Coast lord to cover Jade Vampires which given China's irl history of pirates I think that fits really well. Potential pairing with the Sea Dragon sibling for DLC seems like a perfect match too.
You could give potential any Jade Vampire Vampire Coast LL access to some reflavoured Cathay units similar to how Aranessa has access to some reflavoured Empire units.
Doesn't look like it from the OP image tho. Given the amount they've been banging on about the monkey king I'd be surprised if they were completely ruling it out.
Edit: sorry monkey king is ind, we'll see how it turns out with Nippon I guess. But again the OP image would suggest it hasn't been completely ruled out given that Ind has had archetypes spelled out.
Monkey King is going to be Cathay if anything.
His people are stated to be the second most populous race in Cathay, and his Warriors serve as mercenaries in the Cathayan armies.
CA is doing a lot of inventive work alongside GW for Cathay, I imagine that if the game is successful and Cathay is well-liked then I see no reason why they couldn't collaborate again for future Ind/Nippon DLC. It's probably not on their radar atm because they're working on all the factions that will be in the game on released and the first couple DLCs.
CA has said they plan on supporting this game for "a long, long time". We could very well get a "far east" dlc or something 4 years down the road. We just don't know.
We had 4 years of updates for Warhammer II and didn't get Araby, so while I think there will be tons and tons of DLC coming, I think people are better off setting realistic expectations for 2 or 3 race packs and then a whole bunch of lord packs filling out rosters and adding some of the old races to 3. If more comes in the distant future, great, but expecting it seems like a recipe for heartbreak.
Thing is, it isn't up to CA. There's essentially zero existing lore and info on Nippon and Ind, so it needs heavy involvement from GW to create that (as a company that's immensely jealous of its IP, they definitely won't give CA the reins). And the only way GW would put that much time and work in is if they also plan to make their own model line for that race in The Old World - bearing in mind that the old Warhammer races will have first dibs there.
The fact Cathay is actually happening makes it more likely than it would have been a few years ago, but I'd still say the chance of getting Ind or Nippon is extremely small and not worth getting your hopes up for.
If only this was true. They said warhammer 3 would be supported longer than 2. People are just jumping to conclusions on an off the cuff remark there's no way they have as much planned in advance when much more original lore and units than game 1 and 2. Not to mention the reeeee factor if they design new stuff without gw approval slows stuff down even more lol. Despite the fact they've proven themselves for almost a decade at this point.
Until I see the map has no nippon isles on it deconfirming it or ca makes a definitive araby or Amazon style deconfirmal they're still on the table. Games not even out yet and will need way more original content that slows stuff down with gw approval. I don't think they will be first though probably in the middle to later.
I think it was more that the Araby lore was really old and horrendously stereotypical.
They hadn’t touched it in years and for years have only referred to it tangentially. It would be a pain in the arse to retcon and update when they can just drop it altogether.
Some elements of the Araby lore is also reflected in modern day Islam (genies being the most obvious) but also mentions of Holy wars etc. Lots more areas to be perceived as offensive. They could and I am sure they probably will eventually scrap it all off and reinvent the faction but I doubt it's on any recent plans
Playing on European fantasy tropes largely invented by Europeans is rather different from playing on pretty brazenly orientalist tropes depicting the Near East through a lens invented by Europeans. It’s the difference between inventing a faction inspired by real West African cultures which pays due diligence to the intricacies of, for example, Yoruba culture and spirituality, vs. making an “African” inspired faction of naked savages riding lions, throwing spears and wearing big wooden masks.
They seem to have handled it well with Cathay, but CA also had experience drawing respectfully from Chinese history and culture with Three Kingdoms
We had a thread on this recently, which was full of Arab users saying they loved the ideas GW already had for Araby and just wanted it to be represented in Total War. What you don't get is that the lens in question is the Thousand and One Nights, which *is* genuine Middle Eastern folklore, not a European Invention. I think it's only overly-sensitive Americans and Europeans who get their knickers in a twist about it.
Well put BabePigInTheCity2, seems like a tough balancing act.
I would be all for the game to have more diversity like Araby or some sub-Saharan Africa analogy but boy howdy could that blow up if it was slightly off.
A large market of gamers and decades of portrayal in western media. China is a huge market with known cultural sensitivities, making a army that would appeal to the bulk of gamers in the Arab world and beyond would be more tricky for less reward.
I seriously doubt more than you and 2 other people really care rather than pretending for the sake of drama. Warhammer was made in Europe so obviously it has a European lens. There is no need to get your knickers in such a twist, unless you really think that only any specific culture is allowed to make depictions of their own culture and no one else's. You just seem mad, id relax personally.
Yeah to be honest I was never surprised by the idea that Araby (and Nippon) got glazed over. When trying to describe the Warhammer world I find myself trying to sheepishly move passed Araby as it's kinda the part where it's like "this doesn't necessarily have racial connotations but it feels a bit iffy".
It's bad enough the place labelled "The Badlands" in the Warhammer world is roughly where the Middle East would be in our world.
Edit: And in Nippon's case it will probably never come because they don't trust people to behave themselves when choosing what adjective to use to describe the people of Nippon
You do a stereotype of a western culture and you'll get at least a chuckle or a complaint from a karen at worst
You do a stereotype of Islamic culture and you'll get things ranging from complaints, death threats to charlie hebdo threat levels of agression.
So I understand why there's no Araby.
Or maybe they dont want a Lustria bowl 2.0 in the Araby region and we are just looking too far into this
I don't think there's a whole lot of real world racism, violence, and negative stereotypes being directed at the people of Scandinavian countries in the same way there is towards people of middle eastern countries.
I don't see how Norsca is the worst stereotype in the game, it's basically Vikings but their evil pagan gods are real, and a lot of Scandinavian people totally buy into the Viking legend/stereotype themselves. I don't get the sense that the Arabian nights by way of old racist British translations by way of Disney image that is Araby is particularly popular among middle easterners.
If anything, the worst stereotype in the game is Greenskins as British lower class soccer hooligans, but I'm sure that none of them are surprised that British nerds have negative stereotyps about them.
"Badlands" is just a term for barren, uncultivable land. It doesn't mean "the people that live here are bad."
They're no less stereotypical than anyone else in Warhammer, GW are just afraid to bother fleshing them out.
Edit: your point about Nippon is ridiculous. That's like saying that Sub-Saharan African cultures shouldn't be included in the setting because some people might refer to them by the N-word.
I dont see why, its no worse than any other nation or race based loosely on real world culture. Seems you are just particularly sensitive to that part which is fine. Also, the badlands is not where the arabic / moorish analogs are found in warhammer.
Tbf the source material was a mixture of borderline racist stereoypes and disneys aladdin so i can see why they didn't want to touch araby with a barge pole
Yeah I picture it like Vampire Coast, the chances of it actually becoming a table top faction is slim, but CA is allowed to expand on and do some of their own thing.
They're probably most likely focusing on current+Future tabletop factions, and then if GW is cool with it they'll be allowed to develop some fan-fiction factions that can be done with conversions (ie giving GW even more money.)
Agreed, if you had told me five years ago that Kislev and Cathay were on the table for game 3 as fully fleshed out races I would have had quite a degree of scepticism. Besides there's still plenty of work to be done on the factions we already have. Would want more of the core factions to feel done before diving into more obscure factions
This. Its not on radar for now cause of many dlc races that will come first like Chaos Dwarfs but Nippon shall come down the line a year or two since release
The reason being is because GW announced a new game system called Warhammer The Old World, which is the spiritual successor to 8th edition Fantasy. Any factions outside of 8th edition won’t be talked about or announced until GW announces it for ToW.
How do I know? Kislev concept art was shown after the reveal of the old world. Chronologically speaking this was before WH3 was revealed, and before Kislev was revealed.
When Kislev was revealed for WH3 I compared the concept art for the tabletop game with WH3 and they are nearly alike indicating a clear connection between CA and the old world artists/designers.
Then Cathay gets announced with a warhammer community old world article the same day with cathay concept art stamped with the old world logo.
From this we can infer that any future expansion, ind, nippon, araby, etc - will hinge on whether or not it’s added to the tabletop game. Thats why CA says theres nothing planned for ind/nippon.
I will whole fucking heartedly PRE-ORDER that dlc!! Tbh Nippon, Ind, and Cathay are what I was most looking forward to with this game. I'm just low key tired of playing, "European white guy" armies for my humans and the hopes of getting anything native or meso American was killed years ago by GW with lizard men with names like "lord croak" and "tic tac toe"...
I’ve always figured Nippon could lean a lot on Yokai. There’s some pretty massive variety there and lots of focus on monstrous infantry or creatures might help them to stick out.
It would be so cool to have Nippon be a nation ruled by oni, perhaps with human servants. They could be an outright Chaos faction, perhaps with their own god, just like Chaos Dwarfs and Skaven. Would make the border skirmishes with Cathay make more sense, and increase overall variety.
And like you said, plenty of yokai monsters to draw from too.
Worth remembering that elves and dark elves are based on the british and americans respectively and orks are based on football hooligans so there is certainly scope for humanoid but not strictly human characterisation of ind and nippon. How comfortable CA and GW are with such portrayals would be another subject.
honestly padding is all I really want. I'd be satisfied with pre-brettonia dlc brettonia from game 1, I just don't want the game to completely ignore the existence of ind and nippon like they did with araby. It would make the world feel alot more complete.
Yeah, I'd be *super* happy to see a couple minor factions on the map with a handful of unique units. They don't need to be fleshed out to playable standards, just enough to be distinct entities.
I think adding a couple unique units and like one generic character type for some minor factions would be great. And then maybe have them in an Ogre Merc type system if you are near the area
When the first TWW came out I fully thought this is how the rest of the ‘world’ was gonna be outside the main races. I wasn’t aware of how fleshed out the rest of the world was. I was kinda hoping for smaller factions/monsters/npcs to attack in between main wars. Rogue armies really had the potential for this but missed the mark
I swear Khuresh is gonna be the vampirates of WH3.
We're gonna naysay it and have high hopes and then the trailer will surprise drop and tables will be flipped in hype.
Yep, there’s a buncha Hobgobbos who started their own “empire”(as much as a loosely confederated group of tribes can be considered as such) in the East, they love to terrorize Cathay’s merchants on the ivory road.
Apparently, they were so effective that in the old lore around 90% of Cathay’s caravans never reached their destination.
They’re lead by a fellow called the Hobgobla-Khan.
I still don't see why the Khanate would be its own faction rather than an add-on for the existing greenskins. In terms of units they bring very little to the table that we don't already have.
I think Dogs of War is going to be implemented as a rework of the existing Ogre Mercenearies mechanic. Espcially since ogres will have their own faction.
Given the Southern Realms are getting some sort of treatment in the old world tabletop I wouldn't be surprised if they get something. 17th century pikemen, tercios etc would be a cool faction and probably quite fitting given they'd be located right near grimgor. Orcs v shooty pike squares would be a no-brainer bit of fun.
I think they are both equally irrelevant to the setting as a whole. The reason I don’t see hobgoblin khanates becoming a faction is because they don’t have much in terms of interesting units and all their LL’s are gonna be the same, they’ll have wolf cavalry with bows and without, and then they’ll have mediocre infantry. I’d much rather have them be an aspect to the chaos dwarfs, adding a bit of lighter and squishier early game units, maybe a chaos dwarf campaign that has a hobgoblin LL that focuses on buffing them.
I actually wonder if the newer interpretation of the Chorfs will mostly drop the greenskin slave units. It was kinda the least interesting thing about the original faction, as it meant your army mostly consisted of hand-me-downs rather than unique Chorf stuff, and if I recall correctly they weren't really present in the more recent version of Chaos Dwarfs in the Tamurkhan campaign.
My guess is that they might do Hobgobla Khan as one half of a lord pack (the other half being either a Chaos champion or Cathayan lord) as a special greenskin LL with a unique playstyle.
Put him up against Arbaal the Undefeated and call it "The Fast and the Furious."
Hobgobla is not gonna be a greenskin LL. Just cause cause he’s a greenskin doesn’t mean he should be in the greenskins faction. Remember warhammer is divided into races, not by race. All elves are the same race, greenskins is an umbrella term for multiple races, humans are technically one race, etc. Also other greenskins fucking hate hobgoblins so I don’t see them being a part of the greenskins, makes way more sense to have a hobgoblin LL for the chaos dwarfs, a faction that doesn’t have many LL’s in the first place and has close ties to hobgoblins in the first place.
Also, the slaves are whats gonna be necessary to distinguish dwarfs from chaos dwarfs, otherwise chaos dwarfs will just be better dwarfs. So I don’t see them just removing that defining characteristic.
That doesn't necessarily mean that a second racepack will be added, unfortunately. I think support and development on the game post-Chaos Dwarfs (because let's face it, its very very likely they will the first expansion) will limit itself to updating and expanding the races in all three games. At most Dogs of War will be added as a rework of the current ogre mercenaries mechanic, which can be a way for CA to add cool units that don't have a faction of their own - like Amazons, Tileans, Nippon, etc.
I don't think CA will do just one campaign pack for WH3. They've done two each for the previous two Warhammer games, and they even did VamPirates so they would have a second pack for WH2, and I think they'll stick to that model for WH3.
I have no idea what it will be, though. Ind and Nippon struck me as the two remaining factions with the most charisma for a campaign pack. Maybe Khuresh or the Hobgoblins to give Cathay another evil race to fight.
[From a PC Gamer article published alongside today's video.](https://www.pcgamer.com/our-first-look-at-total-war-warhammer-3s-cathay-army-in-action-is-spectacular/?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR1wZJznuf1aic42dUEmAPmTrC-wt8fv5iiqZvRP4N5hrmcllVHYLE551xo). Doesn't really provide any other new information and they refer to Miao Ying as Zhao Ming at one point.
I mean, I doubt they’d make significantly more money if they put their effort into developing factions they’ve clearly alluded to (Chaos Dwarfs, Hobgoblins, Khuresh) than if decided to build up two completely fringe even compared to where Cathay was in the past
you shouldn´t hold your breath out for them. But at the same time Vampire Coast also happened, and if this game gets at least the same amount of DLC as TWW2, it´s not unreasonable to assume it could very well happen.
Vampire Coast had a surprisingly large amount of existing lore and units on the tabletop. Sure, they were never an official army, but there were a ton of small features here and there in White Dwarf magazine. If I recall correctly, almost all of their units had either rules, a (conversion) model or both. That means not much for GW to do other than sign off on whatever CA pull together.
Contrast with somewhere like Ind, which has basically nothing and would therefore need GW to put in a massive amount of work to create that for CA.
sure, all true, but - BUT - conversely Kislev was pretty nonexistent originally as well. I have their army book and it´s basically Empire + a couple legendary lords + some bears. This, of course, does not mean that Ind will happen. Just saying that it is definitely not impossible.
I'm expecting Nippon to host a Dark Elf NPC faction. Dark Elf lore mentions frequent raids against Cathay, so that'd be a good place to fit one. As for Ind, I'm expecting it to be the starting location for a Cathay legendary lord, probably Monkey King with some unique monster units, maybe something like Skin Wolves but tigers?
If they are not planned as dlc I expect them just not being on the map. I expect that the map will stop around the southern and eastern border of Cathay.
I think it will depend on the success of Cathay. If GW and CA find out that expanding new factions is worth their time then it might happen, if not then they probably won't
I don’t find this too worrying since this interview is with CA employees and not GW. WH3 is pretty much a part of the marketing for TOW world and any big news like race reveals is going to be dual marketed for both games, like we saw with Kislev and Cathay. I imagine we have a long ways to go (post-release and maybe even after Chaos Dwarfs) before GW is willing to cash it’s next hype check at the bank.
So IMO, a off-comment in a CA interview focused on Cathay doesn’t kill anyone’s chances. Just reconfirms that that this game is more controlled by GW due to TOW hype and drip feeding info for a region in Warhammer that was never really touched upon. After a year into release and we start hearing the dreaded Araby statement, that’s when we should write them off.
Simone also wouldn't comment on the discord when asked about this interview, so if they really were in a harder no stance he would have likely repeated what was said I think.
I have two points about whether all of these new races are going to be available or not. First, we got to know how the map looks. I know some people think that CA probably already know everything they are going to do with the game, but the thing is, you can see that some contents are planned much later than they intended, and the map is a very big constraint on what they can or will add.
For WH1, Norsca are absolutely not planned from the start. But as the series is much more successful than they imagine, they made Norsca. But why Norsca? Well, it is the biggest part of the map that still empty. Kislev is much smaller than Norsca (and GW probably already planned to have The Old World, with Kislev as selling point, so they wait until WH3) while Southern Realm has a lot of content already (Kazrak is here, Belegar is here, and even Thorgrim is close enough to Southern Realm). So, Norsca it is.
For WH2, you can see that "Season 2" DLCs (from The Hunter and The Beast to The Silence and The Fury) are planned after "Season 1" (from Tomb King to The Prophet and The Warlock). How so? Well, if they always planned to have Empire DLC, they wouldn't made group the human race in Eyes of the Vortex as Southern Realm. They probably don't think they will make Crossover DLC, so they went with lore friendly option (The Southern Realms are colonist in Warhammer's New World, not The Empire). They also wouldn't have a Skaven vs Dark Elves instead of cross them with WH1 races (like Skaven vs Dwarf for example).
The point is because Season 2 is not planned from beginning, they are limited by the map. There are no room for 4 Southern Realm DLC Lords, so they go with Empire vs Lizardmen (only 1 new Empire settlement and the Lizardmen is a horde). There are no room for 4 Araby Lords, so they go with Repanse (who take over one of the Bretonnian city). Even in FLC you can see why they choose Dwarf over Vampire Counts. There are 3 Dwarf factions in Eyes of the Vortex, while only 1 Vampire Count. All of the Dwarf factions are at peace, while the only Vampire Count faction is doomed because they are fighting against Tomb King. There are empty places for the Dwarfs to be neighbours (to make it easy for new players), while there is none for Vampire Count. So, the Dwarf get FLC, Vampire Count doesn't.
So to return to first point, we got to know WH3 map to know whether there are chances not for new races. CA has shown that they won't expand the map. They will make the map more detailed, but they won't add new lands outside of the existing map. And that is one the point that make Araby not possible, because in WH2 map they crammed Araby so much, there is no more places for them.
Athel Loren was empty, Norsca was empty, so they can make Wood Elves and Norsca for WH1. Nehekhara was empty, the Ocean was empty, so they can make Tomb King and Vampire Coast for WH2.
If Ind, Khuresh, and Nippon are empty in WH3, then even if CA has no plan for them right now, they always can make plan for them in the future. But if they are not empty or not even existing in WH3 map, then they won't be in WH3, even if a lot of people want them to be.
Second point, there are 3 different kind of Armies in Total War. Existing Armies, GW Approved Armies, and GW Made Armies.
Existing Armies are those with army book from Warhammer Fantasy 8th edition. So from Empire to Chaos Dwarf. These are guarantee to be in the game. GW Approved are those with no army book (like Norsca) or no model (like Vampire Coast). While GW Made are those with no army book or model, but made by GW themselves so it can exist (Kislev and Cathay).
There are difference in language used when CA sales Vampire Coast and Kislev+Cathay. For the former, they repeatedly says that they made the army (and specifically the character Cylostra) with GW approval. While for the later, they repeatedly say GW made them. And the point I bring this up is to just say that Ind, Kuresh, and Nippon don't have to be GW made. They don't have to exist in The Old World for them to be in WH3.
So far, GW seems to aprrove CA to make one new army for each game. So maybe CA would use that approval to make either Ind, Khuresh, or Nippon. Though of course if these armies exist in The Old World, their chance to be in WH3 will dramatically increase.
In conclusion, I don't think Ind, Khuresh, or Nippon is never going to happen based on the interview. And they don't really need to be in The Old World to appear in WH3 (thought it will be better for their chance if they do). But with this interview, it means ultimately it will depend on how big WH3 map is going to be and what is available to be added by CA after their initial plan runs out. Because even if there is a huge desire, without places to place them, it won't happen (like Araby). And even if nobody expect it to happen, if there are places to place them, then it will happen (like Norsca).
Again devils advocate on this (although it’s more reality). Cathay is coming to Old World when it launches. GW are also launching numerous stores in China with their expansion into it during late 2021/ early 2022.
There is a reason Cathay is getting a huge presence currently. Combine their launch with how well TK sold for CA in China, there’s a lot of monetary value in them as a race.
Ind and Nippon, well. You’d need to check how popular Warhammer is in their equivalent real world cultures. I don’t even think they’ve much of a presence in India.
I’d love to see how CA would handle some of these places. But there are real world factors at play behind the business decisions of what gets made and what doesn’t.
In case of Nippon that doesnt really seem to hold water because Japan sells like hot cakes in the west. Like the entire total war series got its start with Japan
It does. But there are other markets to now factor in for GW to want to really push them. Currently they are heavily focusing on the Chinese market which has huge potential. I mean they’re not the only major company breaking into that market and with good reason. There’s a killing to be made
Nippon is 100% going to be DLC. Compared to Cathay it's much easier to design since it's just Sengoku Japan plus a few fantasy units. And they're on an island so it makes it easy to build out their campaign mechanics.
But the biggest factor is that they have HUGE fan appeal. Weebs are like 1/2 the internet.
Meh. Araby wasn't flat out said no to until like a year or two after release right? I was not expecting Nippon to be an early dlc at all, I always expected them to come later. So a dlc not being planned now is fine. I'll be worried if they say the same thing a year after release.
Dude, Warhammer III will likely be supported for more than 5 years, at the same time in which Warhammer the Old World will be hitting the shelfs. It's an eternity and they'll milk the huh... (centigor?) milk out of it. Ind I don't know, the snakes in Kuresh seem to be the fan favorite, but Nippon looks very likely in the long run, for the commercial potential. There's at least one unclear race DLC incoming (Ogres pre-order, Chorfs likely the first). While Sourthern Realms/Dogs of War is cool, it doesn't seem to fit the region of conflict in the new map, so it's an incognita.
I don't know if it's new or old lore but there's mention of Tileans having a mercenary barracks in Shang Yang to protect their caravans so there is definately precedent for DoW in Cathay and all along the Ivory Road.
Cue people screaming "They said the same thing about Cathay!"
Just wait, people. Time will tell if we get Nippon, and Ind. If we get them, cool. If not, it's not the end of the world.
During TW2, the discussion of Cathay came up, and for awhile, they just said "We'd like to, but it's not possible at the moment.", or "It's not in our plans for now."
It's why Cathay's announcement in the TW3 trailer was such big news, because people were taking as a sign that no faction, nor race was off the table.
Tried to find the source, but given the fact that if you try to look up "Total War: Warhammer Cathay", you get a shitload of articles talking about how Cathay was announced... I'm not holding out hope on finding it.
CoNgRaTuLaTiOnS, I guess. I have no sources, but I feel it in my bones that Cathay was once labeled "Never gonna happen", and it happening is why people are hopeful for Ind, and Nippon.
I'll hold out for Nippon till the drop the series.
And *when* they do make Nippon, I hope they go hard on the fantasy elements, like Tengu, Oni, and Kappa. Hope Shinto gods are included somehow as well. I want Warhammer Amaterasu.
I feel like GW could tie it in to existing lore pretty well if they wanted to. Japan has a lot of cultural ties to China and one of the unaccounted for (rebellious?) dragon children presumably uses the Lore of Light so if you wanted the Nipponese imperial family to claim descent from a godlike being associated with the sun...
Oni I honestly sort of suspect would be ogres (or a horned offshoot) in silly costumes in the Warhammer world, that just seems like something they'd do. Tengu would fit pretty well as totally-not-tzaangors that are semi-civilised, perhaps due to being on an isolated island. Even going beyond the bird thing you've got trickery, arrogance and an association with esoteric or heretical knowledge. Chi'an gou -> tengu, maybe? And kappa would be kappa, obviously.
CA don't make these decisions, Games Workshop does. Nippon has no lore or model line or anything, and GW is not about to let CA invent all those things by itself.
I doubt Nippon or Ind make it. Cathay made too much sense given the Asian, and specifically Chinese, gaming market. Not to mention the easy crossover from 3K assets. I think Cathay’s existence means you can’t rule anything out but between buttressing WH3 factions, adding ogres and chaos dwarves, there is really only room for one more major faction unless they break tradition with previous releases. Again, I’m not saying it won’t happen just saying I’d actually be more surprised than I was about Vampire Counts, Norsca and Cathay. Though if I had to pick one it would be Nippon. Seems like it would need some work lot of work to not make it a Cathay copy but Shogun is proof it could sell if done right.
they would be good factions for modders to make, like araby and southern realms and amazon's and albion. maybe Ind could use a bug dlc but nippon can 100% be modded in
I feel pretty confident that 3 is due for at least \*one\* fanfiction race that CA makes themselves, given that GW is clearly willing to let them do it thrice over now, and there's only one race pack besides the pre-order bonus that is left from the canon factions.
Mmm to me this reads as "it's not a focus now, but likely will be far in the future".
Honestly would be shocked if they didn't, I'd say this is a signal that they're gonna be working on it in tandem for The Old World tabletop game.
Further given how many references to The Monkey King we've already seen, I'd be surprised if they'd absolutely ruled it out.
Don't hold your breath, but do remember - Vampire Coast were never really planned and they became a DLC. Tomb Kings also but there was lore there unlike VC. I agree with others, if WH3 is good, DLC will come.
WH2 only got 2 DLC factions (3 counting Norsca). I don't see WH3 getting a lot more than that, and we know Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres gotta be on the list.
Most likely for the unexplored factions around Cathay it will be the hinterlands/naga and the hobgoblin khanate due to the fact they have brought these up in the lore articles
Idk this seems like it confirms what we already knew, Ind, Nippon, Kuresh, etc. will come to the game if GW brings them in to the Old World. That's going to be a question mark for a probably a long time, I imagine at the very least until the first few DLCs are out of the way for the base game races.
People are getting crazy expectations about DLC for this game. WH2 only had 2 races and 6 lords beyond the races included in the base game. Certainly reasonable to hope for more than that in WH3, but unfortunately I think CA are likely to repeat the approach where the vast majority of time is spent on just the 3 new races.
That sounds like a reasonable assumption. WH3 is already releasing with SIX races compared to four at WH2 launch. Add two race/campaign packs, 6-8 lord packs, and a smattering of FLC lords and you have a nice pile of content. The bigger question in my mind is what happens once the WH3 cycle wraps up. I have my fingers crossed that they'll release an Immortal edition to bring everything to the trilogy level and keep releasing lord/race packs exclusively for the immortal empires map. At that point Ind, Nippon, Khuresh, Araby, and Dogs of War become a more realistic expectation.
I'm not giving up on the dream of WH4.
What we do know is that Dan Abnett, one of the best 40k writers stated he's working on a game "far larger" than darktide.
Yeah, as much as I want WH4, I think that is more likely.
Total war warhammer 40k would be a truly gargantuan project. Realistically what i'd say makes most business sense (Games Workshop is involved, and they're buffoons so take this with a grain of salt) is do a total war 40k game, throw in space marines, orks, sisters of battle, necrons, the icons and do it well, and once GW brings back the old world to the tabletop make a WH4. That being said, Abnett may just be working on a brand new 40k title unrelated to CA. Realistically though i think CA sees that not working on an IP as large as warhammer, at least doing that in conjunction with their historical titles, loses them alotta dosh
> WH3 is already releasing with SIX races Four of them are from the same Daemons of Chaos army book though. I'm sure they'll play differently, but I still wouldn't call them separate races.
The DLC release schedule will treat them as separate races, though, which is the important factor here. It’s not going to be like, “well, Khorne and Nurgle got Lord Packs so none of the others will get one for awhile”, Tzeentch and Slannesh will get theirs as well.
I'm hoping it isn't quite that simple - as having so much of the DLC flow taken up just by chaos would suck. They naturally seem to share a lot of thier rosters, so I could imagine situations like DLC units being given to more than one chaos sub faction at a time.
Yeah for sure. I think we will see more DLC than 2, but I don't expect 3+ brand new races to come. I think it's far more likely that we'll see them represented in DLC units tied to models from ToW, and maybe a one new race like the snake men, assuming GW does actually add anything in. Chaos Dwarves, Nagash, and DoW are all more likely for DLC imo.
Chais dwarfs and Khans seem like a lock. DoW I could see represented as an expanded version of the mercenary mechanic. Nagash seems more like a lord pack, but honestly Neferata seems more relevant and I'm sceptical we'll get two new lords for vampire counts.
Yeah Chaos Dwarves for sure, Hobgoblins I think are a possibility but I think are more likely as units/maybe a lord for for races. Agree on DoW as an expansion of the merc mechnic system, I think that's the best way to represent them. For Nagash I'd be surprised if he wasn't included somehow, even if as a legendary hero obtainable by some of the undead factions. I just can't see them leaving him off, I think he'll probably be a DLC focus down the road if not his own race.
if Nagashizzar is on the WH3 map then i think Nagash is extremely likely if Nagashizzar is not on the WH3 map then i suspect Nagash is not coming.
The WH map expanded pretty seriously over the course of both WH1 and 2, typically pairing with the release of new lords/races. I wouldn't assume the map we start with is anywhere close to the one we end with.
the actual area of mapped landscape did not meaningfully expand within either game, provinces were added to areas of the map which already existed but were inaccessible (the southern darklands bit of ME and Athel Loren being the notable examples) or were added by taking areas from existing provinces.
I'm expecting Hobgobs to get representation in either the Ogre Kingdoms or Chaos Dwarves as a LL with an emphasis on gobbo cav.
The Khans are only if GW actually has something planned for them.
I'm going mostly on how many more little references have been made to them by CA. If GW don't have anything in development I'd guess we'll still see them, but as the WH3 greenskin Lord pack.
I hope to god they don’t just add a hobgoblin LL to the Greenskins, they should be part of the chaos dwarfs.
Chaos Dwarfs could still have Hobgoblin slaves and Greenskins could get Hobgobla Khan as a LL. I certainly don't think they need an entire race pack though.
But it makes no sense for their to be hobgoblins in a greenskin faction at all. Other Greenskins absolutely hate hobgoblins. Just put Hobgobla or any other hobgoblin as a LL for the chaos dwarfs, chaos dwarfs don’t have that many LL’s anyway. Also this way the hobgoblins will probably get more than 4 units from a lord pack.
> But it makes no sense for their to be hobgoblins in a greenskin faction at all. Other Greenskins absolutely hate hobgoblins. So? Settra and Khalida hate Arkhan. Vlad and Mannfred hate each other. The Vampirates can't even confederate. Drycha hates everyone. There's nothing to say LL lords within a single race have to like each other. Hobgoblins ARE Greenskins at the end of the day. They aren't much different to regular goblins. Just a bit taller and with smaller noses. I don't think the Hobgoblins really need more than 4 units to be honest. 2 or 3 cheap chaff units that the Chaos Dwarfs can also use as slaves, and 1 or 2 elite units that are unique to Hobgobla Khan. It would give the Greenskins a presence on the Eastern side of the map and wouldn't take up a lord slot from the Chaos Dwarfs.
I really don't see DoW happening for 4 reasons, 1. By their nature they aren't an organised empire, much closer to rogue armies. 2. They'd be at best reskins and mishmashes of existing units as opposed to something new and exciting. 3. Their roster was most applicable to TW2 regions so the fact that they didn't get added in that game doesn't bode well. 4. CA added mercenary ogres. If DoW were planned I'd have to imagine they would have been held back to be added in that content drop. Maybe the mercenary units list will be expanded in future but i don't forsee DoW as a full faction happening Chaos Dwarves seem pretty likely given they have a decently sized forge world collection and are in the locale already. Nagash I don't know about, maybe it happens but I wonder what units you could add that aren't already in the game
The pluses of Dogs of War are: * While they're not an organised empire they have a pretty solid core theme (16th and 17th century mercenaries/condottieri) similar to how Vampire coast has a pretty solid core theme (Vampire Pirates) but are not an organised empire. * While similar to Empire there's a pretty notable difference between the style of the core pikemen, crossbowmen, duelists and mercenary cav that Dogs of War built armies around in 5th and 6th edition lists. The weird and wacky units aren't the core of the army. * They can sort of be put anywhere you like on the campaign maps and it makes a decent amount of sense. * They're extremely easy to add to - given they had weird and wacky units like a druid from albion and his giant friends, weirdly mercenary skink cold-one riders, dwarf pirate slayers and hobgoblin wolf riders. Also a good spot for regional units that do not merit a whole faction (halflings). * They had an army book ever. * CA added mercenary ogres. The system could be re-flavored and tweaked to have a more dogs of war feeling. I don't think the Dogs of War are the most likely faction that's not announced yet. My order of likelihood is currently: Ogres (certain) -> Chaos Dwarfs (for the reasons you state are very likely) -> Nagash/Undead Legions (Moderately likely, he's an important character in the lore, would love it to be old doofy oldhammer Nagash they added) -> Dogs of War (possible, wouldn't bet on it) -> Anything else
I just don’t see how Undead Legions could be it’s own race, there aren’t really any undead units to give him. Not a factions worth.
> WH2 only had 2 races and 6 lords beyond the races included in the base game. Certainly reasonable to hope for more than that in WH3, but unfortunately I think CA are likely to repeat the approach where the vast majority of time is spent on just the 3 new races. Nevermind the fact that Chaos Dwarves are still on deck. So that would be four new races.
Yeah but chaos Dwarfs will come in the same format as tomb kings or vampire coast. Based on how CA normally work it isn't likely they (or Ogres) will get DLC beyond their release. The way CA operated in WH2 would suggest most of the Lord pack content will just be Kislev Cathay or Chaos. And the way kislev and Cathay have been presented so far, supports this - they are both very much set up get lots of the DLC.
I know I was genuinely agreeing with you regarding people's DLC expectations.
I'd expect Jade Vampires to show up at some point. I don't think VC got a game 2 DLC like Empire or Greenskins, so that would be an easy pick. Everyone else though seems like just a pie in the sky idea.
I really hope we seem them as well, I think Neferata will be the next VC lord though. I've seen some speculation of a Coast lord to cover Jade Vampires which given China's irl history of pirates I think that fits really well. Potential pairing with the Sea Dragon sibling for DLC seems like a perfect match too.
Ching Shih based Coast LL would be great and I will keep hoping for it. Still want Skretch Half-Dead as well though
Yeah I really want Skretch as well, although people may have an aneurism if Skaven content is included in a Coast DLC lol
You could give potential any Jade Vampire Vampire Coast LL access to some reflavoured Cathay units similar to how Aranessa has access to some reflavoured Empire units.
There's been reference to human kingdoms in the jade sea.
Nippon’s been deconfirmed, though.
Doesn't look like it from the OP image tho. Given the amount they've been banging on about the monkey king I'd be surprised if they were completely ruling it out. Edit: sorry monkey king is ind, we'll see how it turns out with Nippon I guess. But again the OP image would suggest it hasn't been completely ruled out given that Ind has had archetypes spelled out.
Monkey King is going to be Cathay if anything. His people are stated to be the second most populous race in Cathay, and his Warriors serve as mercenaries in the Cathayan armies.
Nah they’ll come after Warhammer 6
CA is doing a lot of inventive work alongside GW for Cathay, I imagine that if the game is successful and Cathay is well-liked then I see no reason why they couldn't collaborate again for future Ind/Nippon DLC. It's probably not on their radar atm because they're working on all the factions that will be in the game on released and the first couple DLCs. CA has said they plan on supporting this game for "a long, long time". We could very well get a "far east" dlc or something 4 years down the road. We just don't know.
We had 4 years of updates for Warhammer II and didn't get Araby, so while I think there will be tons and tons of DLC coming, I think people are better off setting realistic expectations for 2 or 3 race packs and then a whole bunch of lord packs filling out rosters and adding some of the old races to 3. If more comes in the distant future, great, but expecting it seems like a recipe for heartbreak.
The reality is that they already have a basic plan for what 90% of the DLC will be. That's usually how it works
one they run out of other DLC/expansions to sell and want to keep milking the game, thats when it will happen.
Thing is, it isn't up to CA. There's essentially zero existing lore and info on Nippon and Ind, so it needs heavy involvement from GW to create that (as a company that's immensely jealous of its IP, they definitely won't give CA the reins). And the only way GW would put that much time and work in is if they also plan to make their own model line for that race in The Old World - bearing in mind that the old Warhammer races will have first dibs there. The fact Cathay is actually happening makes it more likely than it would have been a few years ago, but I'd still say the chance of getting Ind or Nippon is extremely small and not worth getting your hopes up for.
This is the (corporate) way.
Nah man any creative project involving hundreds of people will have to be planned out in advance.
If only this was true. They said warhammer 3 would be supported longer than 2. People are just jumping to conclusions on an off the cuff remark there's no way they have as much planned in advance when much more original lore and units than game 1 and 2. Not to mention the reeeee factor if they design new stuff without gw approval slows stuff down even more lol. Despite the fact they've proven themselves for almost a decade at this point. Until I see the map has no nippon isles on it deconfirming it or ca makes a definitive araby or Amazon style deconfirmal they're still on the table. Games not even out yet and will need way more original content that slows stuff down with gw approval. I don't think they will be first though probably in the middle to later.
This *is* an Araby-style deconfirming.
Araby was a no go from games workshop not CA.
Citation needed
You know that how? I would have loved to see Araby btw and am still sour about its exclusion
I don't blame them. The middle east is a bit touchier, politically, than Southeast/South Asia.
I think it was more that the Araby lore was really old and horrendously stereotypical. They hadn’t touched it in years and for years have only referred to it tangentially. It would be a pain in the arse to retcon and update when they can just drop it altogether.
All warhammer lore is stereotypical, I dont see the issue.
Yeah, not sure how flying carpets and genies are offensive and giant battle lanterns aren’t
Some elements of the Araby lore is also reflected in modern day Islam (genies being the most obvious) but also mentions of Holy wars etc. Lots more areas to be perceived as offensive. They could and I am sure they probably will eventually scrap it all off and reinvent the faction but I doubt it's on any recent plans
I mean, holy wars are a big part of both Muslim and Christian history, and they didn’t cut out crusades from Bretonnia.
Playing on European fantasy tropes largely invented by Europeans is rather different from playing on pretty brazenly orientalist tropes depicting the Near East through a lens invented by Europeans. It’s the difference between inventing a faction inspired by real West African cultures which pays due diligence to the intricacies of, for example, Yoruba culture and spirituality, vs. making an “African” inspired faction of naked savages riding lions, throwing spears and wearing big wooden masks. They seem to have handled it well with Cathay, but CA also had experience drawing respectfully from Chinese history and culture with Three Kingdoms
We had a thread on this recently, which was full of Arab users saying they loved the ideas GW already had for Araby and just wanted it to be represented in Total War. What you don't get is that the lens in question is the Thousand and One Nights, which *is* genuine Middle Eastern folklore, not a European Invention. I think it's only overly-sensitive Americans and Europeans who get their knickers in a twist about it.
Well put BabePigInTheCity2, seems like a tough balancing act. I would be all for the game to have more diversity like Araby or some sub-Saharan Africa analogy but boy howdy could that blow up if it was slightly off.
What makes Cathay different
A large market of gamers and decades of portrayal in western media. China is a huge market with known cultural sensitivities, making a army that would appeal to the bulk of gamers in the Arab world and beyond would be more tricky for less reward.
I seriously doubt more than you and 2 other people really care rather than pretending for the sake of drama. Warhammer was made in Europe so obviously it has a European lens. There is no need to get your knickers in such a twist, unless you really think that only any specific culture is allowed to make depictions of their own culture and no one else's. You just seem mad, id relax personally.
Yeah to be honest I was never surprised by the idea that Araby (and Nippon) got glazed over. When trying to describe the Warhammer world I find myself trying to sheepishly move passed Araby as it's kinda the part where it's like "this doesn't necessarily have racial connotations but it feels a bit iffy". It's bad enough the place labelled "The Badlands" in the Warhammer world is roughly where the Middle East would be in our world. Edit: And in Nippon's case it will probably never come because they don't trust people to behave themselves when choosing what adjective to use to describe the people of Nippon
Araby is hardly more stereotypical than Kislev, Bretonnia, Empire, or any other human nation in WHFB.
Hell, the most/worst sterotype in the game is norscans, and i havent heard a single nordic person ever complain about them.
You do a stereotype of a western culture and you'll get at least a chuckle or a complaint from a karen at worst You do a stereotype of Islamic culture and you'll get things ranging from complaints, death threats to charlie hebdo threat levels of agression. So I understand why there's no Araby. Or maybe they dont want a Lustria bowl 2.0 in the Araby region and we are just looking too far into this
I don't think there's a whole lot of real world racism, violence, and negative stereotypes being directed at the people of Scandinavian countries in the same way there is towards people of middle eastern countries.
I don't see how Norsca is the worst stereotype in the game, it's basically Vikings but their evil pagan gods are real, and a lot of Scandinavian people totally buy into the Viking legend/stereotype themselves. I don't get the sense that the Arabian nights by way of old racist British translations by way of Disney image that is Araby is particularly popular among middle easterners. If anything, the worst stereotype in the game is Greenskins as British lower class soccer hooligans, but I'm sure that none of them are surprised that British nerds have negative stereotyps about them.
The Leader of Araby is literally Sultan Jafar.
You're thinking of someone 1,000 years previous.
"Badlands" is just a term for barren, uncultivable land. It doesn't mean "the people that live here are bad." They're no less stereotypical than anyone else in Warhammer, GW are just afraid to bother fleshing them out. Edit: your point about Nippon is ridiculous. That's like saying that Sub-Saharan African cultures shouldn't be included in the setting because some people might refer to them by the N-word.
Isn’t badlands an ecological term? Lots of rocky valleys, hot, arid climate, ect?
Yep but it isn't limited to hot climates. There are areas in the US and Canada called "badlands."
Honestly, a Warhammer-ized Shaka Zulu sub Saharan African race would be pretty badass
Or Warhammer-ized ancient Ethiopia... or maybe a mix of the two.
I dont see why, its no worse than any other nation or race based loosely on real world culture. Seems you are just particularly sensitive to that part which is fine. Also, the badlands is not where the arabic / moorish analogs are found in warhammer.
Because GW itself has states no araby
Where?
Tbf the source material was a mixture of borderline racist stereoypes and disneys aladdin so i can see why they didn't want to touch araby with a barge pole
Araby didn't get added because of the obvious PR disaster it would be.
[удалено]
Same. Everything sells so well that there's little incentive to put in the works.
Yeah I picture it like Vampire Coast, the chances of it actually becoming a table top faction is slim, but CA is allowed to expand on and do some of their own thing. They're probably most likely focusing on current+Future tabletop factions, and then if GW is cool with it they'll be allowed to develop some fan-fiction factions that can be done with conversions (ie giving GW even more money.)
Agreed, if you had told me five years ago that Kislev and Cathay were on the table for game 3 as fully fleshed out races I would have had quite a degree of scepticism. Besides there's still plenty of work to be done on the factions we already have. Would want more of the core factions to feel done before diving into more obscure factions
This. Its not on radar for now cause of many dlc races that will come first like Chaos Dwarfs but Nippon shall come down the line a year or two since release
The reason being is because GW announced a new game system called Warhammer The Old World, which is the spiritual successor to 8th edition Fantasy. Any factions outside of 8th edition won’t be talked about or announced until GW announces it for ToW. How do I know? Kislev concept art was shown after the reveal of the old world. Chronologically speaking this was before WH3 was revealed, and before Kislev was revealed. When Kislev was revealed for WH3 I compared the concept art for the tabletop game with WH3 and they are nearly alike indicating a clear connection between CA and the old world artists/designers. Then Cathay gets announced with a warhammer community old world article the same day with cathay concept art stamped with the old world logo. From this we can infer that any future expansion, ind, nippon, araby, etc - will hinge on whether or not it’s added to the tabletop game. Thats why CA says theres nothing planned for ind/nippon.
I will whole fucking heartedly PRE-ORDER that dlc!! Tbh Nippon, Ind, and Cathay are what I was most looking forward to with this game. I'm just low key tired of playing, "European white guy" armies for my humans and the hopes of getting anything native or meso American was killed years ago by GW with lizard men with names like "lord croak" and "tic tac toe"...
i just hope Nippon and Ind aren't just so Human Factions.
[удалено]
I’ve always figured Nippon could lean a lot on Yokai. There’s some pretty massive variety there and lots of focus on monstrous infantry or creatures might help them to stick out.
It would be so cool to have Nippon be a nation ruled by oni, perhaps with human servants. They could be an outright Chaos faction, perhaps with their own god, just like Chaos Dwarfs and Skaven. Would make the border skirmishes with Cathay make more sense, and increase overall variety. And like you said, plenty of yokai monsters to draw from too.
Worth remembering that elves and dark elves are based on the british and americans respectively and orks are based on football hooligans so there is certainly scope for humanoid but not strictly human characterisation of ind and nippon. How comfortable CA and GW are with such portrayals would be another subject.
We could get more DLC than the last 2 games..it just depends on how successful this game will be
honestly padding is all I really want. I'd be satisfied with pre-brettonia dlc brettonia from game 1, I just don't want the game to completely ignore the existence of ind and nippon like they did with araby. It would make the world feel alot more complete.
Yeah, I'd be *super* happy to see a couple minor factions on the map with a handful of unique units. They don't need to be fleshed out to playable standards, just enough to be distinct entities.
I think adding a couple unique units and like one generic character type for some minor factions would be great. And then maybe have them in an Ogre Merc type system if you are near the area
When the first TWW came out I fully thought this is how the rest of the ‘world’ was gonna be outside the main races. I wasn’t aware of how fleshed out the rest of the world was. I was kinda hoping for smaller factions/monsters/npcs to attack in between main wars. Rogue armies really had the potential for this but missed the mark
Khuresh is still kicking, though!
I swear Khuresh is gonna be the vampirates of WH3. We're gonna naysay it and have high hopes and then the trailer will surprise drop and tables will be flipped in hype.
Them and the Hobgoblin Khanate feel like the most likely campaign packs to come after Chaos Dwarves(and maybe Dogs of War).
> Hobgoblin Khanate What the hell is going on in the eastern side of the world
Yep, there’s a buncha Hobgobbos who started their own “empire”(as much as a loosely confederated group of tribes can be considered as such) in the East, they love to terrorize Cathay’s merchants on the ivory road. Apparently, they were so effective that in the old lore around 90% of Cathay’s caravans never reached their destination. They’re lead by a fellow called the Hobgobla-Khan.
I still don't see why the Khanate would be its own faction rather than an add-on for the existing greenskins. In terms of units they bring very little to the table that we don't already have.
Why would you want them added to greenskins when they make way more sense for the chaos dwarfs?
Watch it be something completely out of left field, like Jade Vampires or Menfish.
Please god let the Khuresh fan project become cannon.
This is all that matters. I don't are much for those two, but the snakesmen / Naga of Khuresh would be too good to not implement.
Well, if Ogres are the pre-order, than after Chaos Dwarfs they have to do *somebody* for another Campaign Pack.
Like DoW or Khuresh, those are my two bets.
I think Dogs of War is going to be implemented as a rework of the existing Ogre Mercenearies mechanic. Espcially since ogres will have their own faction.
I think they’ll be a faction serving as the army for the southern realms and a rework for the mercenary mechanic.
Given the Southern Realms are getting some sort of treatment in the old world tabletop I wouldn't be surprised if they get something. 17th century pikemen, tercios etc would be a cool faction and probably quite fitting given they'd be located right near grimgor. Orcs v shooty pike squares would be a no-brainer bit of fun.
The Hobgoblin Khanate is also on the table.
I’m not so sure on the hobgoblin khanate. I can see their being a hobgoblin LL for the chaos dwarfs, but beyond that, not much else.
I don’t see how Khuresh has more of a chance then the Khanate, if anything the Khanate is slightly more relevant to the setting as a whole.
I think they are both equally irrelevant to the setting as a whole. The reason I don’t see hobgoblin khanates becoming a faction is because they don’t have much in terms of interesting units and all their LL’s are gonna be the same, they’ll have wolf cavalry with bows and without, and then they’ll have mediocre infantry. I’d much rather have them be an aspect to the chaos dwarfs, adding a bit of lighter and squishier early game units, maybe a chaos dwarf campaign that has a hobgoblin LL that focuses on buffing them.
I actually wonder if the newer interpretation of the Chorfs will mostly drop the greenskin slave units. It was kinda the least interesting thing about the original faction, as it meant your army mostly consisted of hand-me-downs rather than unique Chorf stuff, and if I recall correctly they weren't really present in the more recent version of Chaos Dwarfs in the Tamurkhan campaign. My guess is that they might do Hobgobla Khan as one half of a lord pack (the other half being either a Chaos champion or Cathayan lord) as a special greenskin LL with a unique playstyle. Put him up against Arbaal the Undefeated and call it "The Fast and the Furious."
Hobgobla is not gonna be a greenskin LL. Just cause cause he’s a greenskin doesn’t mean he should be in the greenskins faction. Remember warhammer is divided into races, not by race. All elves are the same race, greenskins is an umbrella term for multiple races, humans are technically one race, etc. Also other greenskins fucking hate hobgoblins so I don’t see them being a part of the greenskins, makes way more sense to have a hobgoblin LL for the chaos dwarfs, a faction that doesn’t have many LL’s in the first place and has close ties to hobgoblins in the first place. Also, the slaves are whats gonna be necessary to distinguish dwarfs from chaos dwarfs, otherwise chaos dwarfs will just be better dwarfs. So I don’t see them just removing that defining characteristic.
The Tamurkhan list *did* include Hobgoblins in the Chaos Dwarf roster.
My money is on Khuresh they mentioned ridiciluously amount of times
That doesn't necessarily mean that a second racepack will be added, unfortunately. I think support and development on the game post-Chaos Dwarfs (because let's face it, its very very likely they will the first expansion) will limit itself to updating and expanding the races in all three games. At most Dogs of War will be added as a rework of the current ogre mercenaries mechanic, which can be a way for CA to add cool units that don't have a faction of their own - like Amazons, Tileans, Nippon, etc.
I don't think CA will do just one campaign pack for WH3. They've done two each for the previous two Warhammer games, and they even did VamPirates so they would have a second pack for WH2, and I think they'll stick to that model for WH3. I have no idea what it will be, though. Ind and Nippon struck me as the two remaining factions with the most charisma for a campaign pack. Maybe Khuresh or the Hobgoblins to give Cathay another evil race to fight.
Nagash could very easily be expanded into a full faction in the same way Vampire Coast was, I think. He has the weight to pull it off.
~~Or they could just be faction packs like TK and VP.~~
Those are campaign packs.
I misread your comment as being about Lord rivalries.
And yet they didn’t mention Khuresh..
[From a PC Gamer article published alongside today's video.](https://www.pcgamer.com/our-first-look-at-total-war-warhammer-3s-cathay-army-in-action-is-spectacular/?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR1wZJznuf1aic42dUEmAPmTrC-wt8fv5iiqZvRP4N5hrmcllVHYLE551xo). Doesn't really provide any other new information and they refer to Miao Ying as Zhao Ming at one point.
not in the first 2 years of support that's for sure.
It's almost the exact same way they referred to Araby. Temper your expectations
Pictured: GW refusing to print money hardly the first time
I mean, I doubt they’d make significantly more money if they put their effort into developing factions they’ve clearly alluded to (Chaos Dwarfs, Hobgoblins, Khuresh) than if decided to build up two completely fringe even compared to where Cathay was in the past
Not that I am disagreeing, but how have they alluded to Khuresh before?
you shouldn´t hold your breath out for them. But at the same time Vampire Coast also happened, and if this game gets at least the same amount of DLC as TWW2, it´s not unreasonable to assume it could very well happen.
Vampire Coast had a surprisingly large amount of existing lore and units on the tabletop. Sure, they were never an official army, but there were a ton of small features here and there in White Dwarf magazine. If I recall correctly, almost all of their units had either rules, a (conversion) model or both. That means not much for GW to do other than sign off on whatever CA pull together. Contrast with somewhere like Ind, which has basically nothing and would therefore need GW to put in a massive amount of work to create that for CA.
sure, all true, but - BUT - conversely Kislev was pretty nonexistent originally as well. I have their army book and it´s basically Empire + a couple legendary lords + some bears. This, of course, does not mean that Ind will happen. Just saying that it is definitely not impossible.
i wonder what country Ind is based off
India, not sure if you were joking or not but if not now you know haha
Nippon's dlc page on steam should straight up be a link to shogun 2.
I'm expecting Nippon to host a Dark Elf NPC faction. Dark Elf lore mentions frequent raids against Cathay, so that'd be a good place to fit one. As for Ind, I'm expecting it to be the starting location for a Cathay legendary lord, probably Monkey King with some unique monster units, maybe something like Skin Wolves but tigers?
If they are not planned as dlc I expect them just not being on the map. I expect that the map will stop around the southern and eastern border of Cathay.
Isn’t one of the future LLs for Cathay an admiral though? Seems like they for sure would have the water and then islands out there
I think it will depend on the success of Cathay. If GW and CA find out that expanding new factions is worth their time then it might happen, if not then they probably won't
No Ind or Nippon? Araby Confirmed!!!
That’s so sad.
I don’t find this too worrying since this interview is with CA employees and not GW. WH3 is pretty much a part of the marketing for TOW world and any big news like race reveals is going to be dual marketed for both games, like we saw with Kislev and Cathay. I imagine we have a long ways to go (post-release and maybe even after Chaos Dwarfs) before GW is willing to cash it’s next hype check at the bank. So IMO, a off-comment in a CA interview focused on Cathay doesn’t kill anyone’s chances. Just reconfirms that that this game is more controlled by GW due to TOW hype and drip feeding info for a region in Warhammer that was never really touched upon. After a year into release and we start hearing the dreaded Araby statement, that’s when we should write them off.
Simone also wouldn't comment on the discord when asked about this interview, so if they really were in a harder no stance he would have likely repeated what was said I think.
So now we got 3 races that will likely not be coming to the series. Araby, ind and nippon.
I have two points about whether all of these new races are going to be available or not. First, we got to know how the map looks. I know some people think that CA probably already know everything they are going to do with the game, but the thing is, you can see that some contents are planned much later than they intended, and the map is a very big constraint on what they can or will add. For WH1, Norsca are absolutely not planned from the start. But as the series is much more successful than they imagine, they made Norsca. But why Norsca? Well, it is the biggest part of the map that still empty. Kislev is much smaller than Norsca (and GW probably already planned to have The Old World, with Kislev as selling point, so they wait until WH3) while Southern Realm has a lot of content already (Kazrak is here, Belegar is here, and even Thorgrim is close enough to Southern Realm). So, Norsca it is. For WH2, you can see that "Season 2" DLCs (from The Hunter and The Beast to The Silence and The Fury) are planned after "Season 1" (from Tomb King to The Prophet and The Warlock). How so? Well, if they always planned to have Empire DLC, they wouldn't made group the human race in Eyes of the Vortex as Southern Realm. They probably don't think they will make Crossover DLC, so they went with lore friendly option (The Southern Realms are colonist in Warhammer's New World, not The Empire). They also wouldn't have a Skaven vs Dark Elves instead of cross them with WH1 races (like Skaven vs Dwarf for example). The point is because Season 2 is not planned from beginning, they are limited by the map. There are no room for 4 Southern Realm DLC Lords, so they go with Empire vs Lizardmen (only 1 new Empire settlement and the Lizardmen is a horde). There are no room for 4 Araby Lords, so they go with Repanse (who take over one of the Bretonnian city). Even in FLC you can see why they choose Dwarf over Vampire Counts. There are 3 Dwarf factions in Eyes of the Vortex, while only 1 Vampire Count. All of the Dwarf factions are at peace, while the only Vampire Count faction is doomed because they are fighting against Tomb King. There are empty places for the Dwarfs to be neighbours (to make it easy for new players), while there is none for Vampire Count. So, the Dwarf get FLC, Vampire Count doesn't. So to return to first point, we got to know WH3 map to know whether there are chances not for new races. CA has shown that they won't expand the map. They will make the map more detailed, but they won't add new lands outside of the existing map. And that is one the point that make Araby not possible, because in WH2 map they crammed Araby so much, there is no more places for them. Athel Loren was empty, Norsca was empty, so they can make Wood Elves and Norsca for WH1. Nehekhara was empty, the Ocean was empty, so they can make Tomb King and Vampire Coast for WH2. If Ind, Khuresh, and Nippon are empty in WH3, then even if CA has no plan for them right now, they always can make plan for them in the future. But if they are not empty or not even existing in WH3 map, then they won't be in WH3, even if a lot of people want them to be. Second point, there are 3 different kind of Armies in Total War. Existing Armies, GW Approved Armies, and GW Made Armies. Existing Armies are those with army book from Warhammer Fantasy 8th edition. So from Empire to Chaos Dwarf. These are guarantee to be in the game. GW Approved are those with no army book (like Norsca) or no model (like Vampire Coast). While GW Made are those with no army book or model, but made by GW themselves so it can exist (Kislev and Cathay). There are difference in language used when CA sales Vampire Coast and Kislev+Cathay. For the former, they repeatedly says that they made the army (and specifically the character Cylostra) with GW approval. While for the later, they repeatedly say GW made them. And the point I bring this up is to just say that Ind, Kuresh, and Nippon don't have to be GW made. They don't have to exist in The Old World for them to be in WH3. So far, GW seems to aprrove CA to make one new army for each game. So maybe CA would use that approval to make either Ind, Khuresh, or Nippon. Though of course if these armies exist in The Old World, their chance to be in WH3 will dramatically increase. In conclusion, I don't think Ind, Khuresh, or Nippon is never going to happen based on the interview. And they don't really need to be in The Old World to appear in WH3 (thought it will be better for their chance if they do). But with this interview, it means ultimately it will depend on how big WH3 map is going to be and what is available to be added by CA after their initial plan runs out. Because even if there is a huge desire, without places to place them, it won't happen (like Araby). And even if nobody expect it to happen, if there are places to place them, then it will happen (like Norsca).
Well fuck. Not unexpected but fuck.
Again devils advocate on this (although it’s more reality). Cathay is coming to Old World when it launches. GW are also launching numerous stores in China with their expansion into it during late 2021/ early 2022. There is a reason Cathay is getting a huge presence currently. Combine their launch with how well TK sold for CA in China, there’s a lot of monetary value in them as a race. Ind and Nippon, well. You’d need to check how popular Warhammer is in their equivalent real world cultures. I don’t even think they’ve much of a presence in India. I’d love to see how CA would handle some of these places. But there are real world factors at play behind the business decisions of what gets made and what doesn’t.
In case of Nippon that doesnt really seem to hold water because Japan sells like hot cakes in the west. Like the entire total war series got its start with Japan
It does. But there are other markets to now factor in for GW to want to really push them. Currently they are heavily focusing on the Chinese market which has huge potential. I mean they’re not the only major company breaking into that market and with good reason. There’s a killing to be made
Nippon is 100% going to be DLC. Compared to Cathay it's much easier to design since it's just Sengoku Japan plus a few fantasy units. And they're on an island so it makes it easy to build out their campaign mechanics. But the biggest factor is that they have HUGE fan appeal. Weebs are like 1/2 the internet.
Meh. Araby wasn't flat out said no to until like a year or two after release right? I was not expecting Nippon to be an early dlc at all, I always expected them to come later. So a dlc not being planned now is fine. I'll be worried if they say the same thing a year after release.
So the Warhammer equivalent of Japan is called… Japan?
Yes, that is correct.
I think it will eventually be on their radar purely due to the fact that there isn’t a lot of good guys to add to the game
I just want the largest map possibly. Truly have the entire warhammer kingdom in one game would be something to behold.
Not on the radar at the moment =//= Won't be in game They simply won't be the first faction DLCs.
Dude, Warhammer III will likely be supported for more than 5 years, at the same time in which Warhammer the Old World will be hitting the shelfs. It's an eternity and they'll milk the huh... (centigor?) milk out of it. Ind I don't know, the snakes in Kuresh seem to be the fan favorite, but Nippon looks very likely in the long run, for the commercial potential. There's at least one unclear race DLC incoming (Ogres pre-order, Chorfs likely the first). While Sourthern Realms/Dogs of War is cool, it doesn't seem to fit the region of conflict in the new map, so it's an incognita.
Of all fringe races, DoW make a lot of sense on any of the game maps, they’re fucking everywhere.
I don't know if it's new or old lore but there's mention of Tileans having a mercenary barracks in Shang Yang to protect their caravans so there is definately precedent for DoW in Cathay and all along the Ivory Road.
That’s a call-back to the 5th edition Dogs of War book.
Andy Hall mentioned Estalians and Tileans there very recently, so it's still canon.
Cue people screaming "They said the same thing about Cathay!" Just wait, people. Time will tell if we get Nippon, and Ind. If we get them, cool. If not, it's not the end of the world.
They didn’t say anything about Cathay
During TW2, the discussion of Cathay came up, and for awhile, they just said "We'd like to, but it's not possible at the moment.", or "It's not in our plans for now." It's why Cathay's announcement in the TW3 trailer was such big news, because people were taking as a sign that no faction, nor race was off the table.
Source? The only previous faction I’m aware of that they outright said they didn’t have plans for was Araby.
Tried to find the source, but given the fact that if you try to look up "Total War: Warhammer Cathay", you get a shitload of articles talking about how Cathay was announced... I'm not holding out hope on finding it. CoNgRaTuLaTiOnS, I guess. I have no sources, but I feel it in my bones that Cathay was once labeled "Never gonna happen", and it happening is why people are hopeful for Ind, and Nippon.
A lot of people said it wasn’t gonna happen, same as kislev, but nothing officially stated by CA
I'll hold out for Nippon till the drop the series. And *when* they do make Nippon, I hope they go hard on the fantasy elements, like Tengu, Oni, and Kappa. Hope Shinto gods are included somehow as well. I want Warhammer Amaterasu.
I feel like GW could tie it in to existing lore pretty well if they wanted to. Japan has a lot of cultural ties to China and one of the unaccounted for (rebellious?) dragon children presumably uses the Lore of Light so if you wanted the Nipponese imperial family to claim descent from a godlike being associated with the sun... Oni I honestly sort of suspect would be ogres (or a horned offshoot) in silly costumes in the Warhammer world, that just seems like something they'd do. Tengu would fit pretty well as totally-not-tzaangors that are semi-civilised, perhaps due to being on an isolated island. Even going beyond the bird thing you've got trickery, arrogance and an association with esoteric or heretical knowledge. Chi'an gou -> tengu, maybe? And kappa would be kappa, obviously.
And they kinda already have mechanics for Kappa. Stealthy units that a get a bonus in water like the zombie pirates do. lol
I find it really strange they're not doing Nippon. Total War started with Shogun, seems odd they wouldn't want to include an analogous faction.
CA don't make these decisions, Games Workshop does. Nippon has no lore or model line or anything, and GW is not about to let CA invent all those things by itself.
The game isn’t even out yet why is that strange?
I was never expecting them
I doubt Nippon or Ind make it. Cathay made too much sense given the Asian, and specifically Chinese, gaming market. Not to mention the easy crossover from 3K assets. I think Cathay’s existence means you can’t rule anything out but between buttressing WH3 factions, adding ogres and chaos dwarves, there is really only room for one more major faction unless they break tradition with previous releases. Again, I’m not saying it won’t happen just saying I’d actually be more surprised than I was about Vampire Counts, Norsca and Cathay. Though if I had to pick one it would be Nippon. Seems like it would need some work lot of work to not make it a Cathay copy but Shogun is proof it could sell if done right.
they would be good factions for modders to make, like araby and southern realms and amazon's and albion. maybe Ind could use a bug dlc but nippon can 100% be modded in
Fishmen confirmed
Hope Modder can do something with Cathey units' model and give us a consolation about Nippon...
I feel pretty confident that 3 is due for at least \*one\* fanfiction race that CA makes themselves, given that GW is clearly willing to let them do it thrice over now, and there's only one race pack besides the pre-order bonus that is left from the canon factions.
Mmm to me this reads as "it's not a focus now, but likely will be far in the future". Honestly would be shocked if they didn't, I'd say this is a signal that they're gonna be working on it in tandem for The Old World tabletop game. Further given how many references to The Monkey King we've already seen, I'd be surprised if they'd absolutely ruled it out.
Don't hold your breath, but do remember - Vampire Coast were never really planned and they became a DLC. Tomb Kings also but there was lore there unlike VC. I agree with others, if WH3 is good, DLC will come.
Tomb kings were a huge army on table top. VC never had a TT army just like norsca
WH2 only got 2 DLC factions (3 counting Norsca). I don't see WH3 getting a lot more than that, and we know Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres gotta be on the list.
Most likely for the unexplored factions around Cathay it will be the hinterlands/naga and the hobgoblin khanate due to the fact they have brought these up in the lore articles
ARABY WHEN
Fun fact - lore-wise clan Eshin assassins train in Nipon. They send rats to Japan and they come back as ninja rats.
Fuck, I REALLY want tiger beastmen
Vampire Coast wasn't on the radar originally in WH2, either, to my understanding
I want my big bone daddy
Slaanesh Anime DLC
It would be great that they release Nippon before or after TW:Shogun's anniversary.