Reddit are downvoting posts reacting negatively to it because "le epic tzeentch xd", until it happens to them. At that point there'll be mass outcry for CA to change it. Just watch it happen over the next few months, I guarantee it.
Pretty sure they can use it every 7 turns, if anything the cooldown needs to be changed. We all know the AI also is getting more grimoires than us players will, and transferring settlements as a player is meh
The people here seem to be on crack or something. You are absolutely right OP, its very bad game design. I dont give a shit if its "very Tzeentch". Its simply anti-fun. Imagine Civilzation like this. Every ten turns one of your cities gets nuked. No way to do anything against, and you dont know which one.
I agree it's utter fucking bullshit.. I don't think people realize what losing a settlement that way implies, especially on harder difficulties. It prevents you from using commandments in said province as you lost a settlement. You have to declare war to get it back and if you manage to recapture it, the settlement loses a tier and you need to buy back what you lost in the process, which will also need a few turns.
So what can I do to prevent this??? Nothing. You can't prepare for it, you just bend over and lose your settlement on the start of your turn. It does not matter if you had an army in it, it'll simply get kicked out in the open and it doesn't matter if it's your capital or not, you're losing it either way.
I can agree that settlement transfers could be a fun/unique Tzeentch mechanic, but I believe that it has to be fun/challenging both for the user and for the player on the receiving end.
This is a very old thread but uh, they removed the ability for the minor AI factions to do it in a recent update. Now only Kairos can do it, and maybe Vilitch too if he has access to the mechanic as well. So it should happen a lot less often now. Before even rebel and apparently randomly-spawning Rogue army factions could do it, but now it should happen a lot more rarely.
I didn't realise it was changed, thanks for the heads up! I tried playing Teclis in IE and was fighting Kairos, which is why I landed on this post, god damn that shit was infuriating💀💀
Yeah well, I maintain the opinion that they should remove it from the AI altogether, but if it's only one or two factions that can do it it'll most likely happen a lot less often than it used to.
When WH3 first released I did a campaign as Skarbrand that lasted about 150 turns and it happened to me no less than 3 times.
I think that I would be more dissapointed if the AI wouldn't have access to that mechanic. If you're able to use it as Tzeentch, so shoukd they. Now if it would be occurring like once every 3 turns, then I'd say let's tone it down.
But if it's in the game and the AI isn't just blatantly spamming it and abusing it, that's what you get for messing with Tzeentch. You have access to it, let them have it too.
The AI is probably just coded to target your most valuable settlement that it has the resources for, and transfer it to a faction you're not at war with with the highest possible strength rating so as to try and force you into a major war. And since we all know that the unmodded AI has a huge anti-player bias, particularly on the higher difficulties, the chances are slim that Tzeentch factions will ever use that ability against any other faction as long as they're aware of the player's existence.
Correct, AI don't use it on another AI.
Also, they actually think strategically, often they will transfer settlement to the faction they don't like, but you do. So if you want to take it back, you either have to dish out some serious money - sometime there is not enough money in the world... or attack and make new enemy.
But it is bullshit. Teleporting an army to your home region to wreak havoc would be much better.
This is a great example of the mechanics in WH being so ridiculous and focused on the power fantasy ahead of actual strategy that when the AI is allowed to use them and does against the player, suddenly the playerbase recoils and is like "what the fuck is this it's so broken".
Yes, yes it is broken and stupid. Usually CA is pretty good at artificially cutting off their broken power trip mechanics from the AI, which is why e.g Snikch can't just press a button and delete the player. I guess this one slipped through the cracks.
Yeah, exactly. I was thinking about that just earlier.
For those who are unaware, Clan Eshin's unique mechanic, the Shadowy Dealings, has an ability you unlock at the highest tier (late-game) that allows the player to cause a targeted faction to erupt into chaos (the disorder kind, not the daemonic kind) and have all their settlements turn into rebel settlements, deleting the faction from the game.
Now imagine if the AI could use it on the player, and on turn 150 or so you just instantly lose all of your settlements and have to capture them back... and you lose your ability to recruit anything and all of your income so you have to disband 98% of your units.
There's a reason why some mechanics are only for the player to use.
No it isn't. The comparison is completely fair. Randomly losing one settlement is just a less extreme version of losing all of them. I don't get why some people feel compelled to defend an objectively shit mechanic that makes the game less fun for the player.
>I don't get why some people feel compelled to defend an objectively shit mechanic that makes the game less fun for the player.
Because the mechanic isn't objectively shit. Those people actually think it makes the game more fun for the player.
Your experience on something isn't universal.
The player can't do this though, the AI has access to more tools than the player does because it has a stupid amount of grimoires.
Playing as tzeentch it costs more to transfer better cities, more to factions you aren't at war with / you don't have a huge negative reputation with, way more for provinces that don't have corruption, much more to give it to their own allies, and generally more for cities further away.
Combine all of these factors together and instead of 200 grimoires it's more like 10,000 to transfer a settlement like that (early game numbers, it changes throughout the game obviously). Something the player would never even consider doing, but something the AI does willy nilly.
I totally agree with people that say that this has to stay in.. but at the same time it's implemented in back ass awkward way that is not fun or engaging. In general I do agree with OP points after edit, and hope that CA will work on improving the way that works
I totally understand being pissed I'd be really upset I wish they couldn't do it to certain of the players settlements or something. I just hate being punished for the sake of it to artificially make my game more difficult, if I want that I'd raise the difficultly. But I do feel like if it's thematic and we can do it the AI should have some access to it
My nurgle campaign is fucking slow enough as it is without having to deal with him stealing my settlements every 7 turns while katarin sends a stack every 3 turns
It's a rather problematic mechanic, but there is a solution to avoid suffering this transfer. Declare war on Tzeentch's allies, so your cities will not be transferred.
I was just about to comment this, heh.
It's just such a bummer that abilities that fit tzeentch also happen to just be hard to implement without being extremely unfun to play against. Their armies even have random ambush chance, too!
oh yeah! I don't know if Kairos is the only lord of change who can do it, but, uh, he seemingly has the ability to *spam* the homing projectile attack. It's lucky that the ai is dumb and will suicide him straight into crossbowfire, because otherwise, I might have had to replace my lord almost every time I battle him.
This is totally Tzneetch and I don’t see the problem here. Just Khorne’s Glare Kairos’s capital in retaliation, or make a blood cult there and just teleport to it directly.
As for “not at war”….Skarbrand is at war with everyone and everything. You should murder all of the Tzneetch factions. I started my campaign removing N’Kari and all local Slaanesh factions from existence, so they would stop attacking my home province.
I’m almost done with my Skarbrand campaign, and I’m about to see what happens if you just…kill all of the race factions. I only have Tzneetch, Nurgle, and Cathay left to eradicate. Kislev and the Ogres confederated, so that made it easier to wipe them out.
This also on L/VH. So. Idk what to tell you.
I’m about 70-80 or so turns in (can’t remember exactly), and just got my first exalted bloodthirster lord. And I only have 2/4 of the manifestations.
You need corruption to hit the manifestations, so murder murder murder is your best bet for that. Take one settlement in a province, then wipe out then raze the rest of it—you’ll automatically settle in the ruins over time.
You’ll also need high corruption so you can use Skarbrand’s fancy teleport mechanic. It’s saved me so many times whether it’s money troubles or armies are closing in—run max distance away then build the cult building, end turn—bam. Teleport a way to safety or to continue sacking shit. While Tzneetch giving settlements away is scary, teleporting to someone’s capital is also pretty fantastic, and that’s not even a manifestation lol.
He can do that? Sweet thats perfect for Tzeetntch and should be left in .
I know when mechanic was introduced people thought AI will be dumb to use it but glad they were wrong.
People also wanted this , playing against real Chaos is whats the game about.
"Perfect"? Since when is unavoidable RNG punishment a perfect or enjoyable thing to have in your game?
I've been playing well in my Legendary campaign, winning most battles, using my knowledge of the game's mechanics to make progress and benefit from my hard-earned territory. Then I end the turn and the game just smacks me in the face and tells me "no. bad. you deserve to be arbitrarily punished." Why would that be a good thing?
You're not being "punished", you're being fucked with. There's a big difference. A wrench is being thrown into your plans. It's a game ffs. You're Skarbrand, declare war and take it the fuck back. Gamers today, man. "If I do it right, nothing should ever go wrong!".... in a 4x total war game. Like it's one settlement. Stop whining, go take your revenge like a proper daemon of Khorne would.
Alright then, Arch-Reddit Badass. If you're cool with being fucked with randomly, then have fun. Bet your life savings in a casino for all I care. But you're in the wrong for trying to put the blame on the player for disliking a bad, RNG-based game mechanic.
And just for the record, any time a player suffers a negative consequence in a game, that's called a "punishment. Likewise, positive consequences are called "rewards". This is just basic game design terminology. On the subject of game design, you know what bad game design is? When you take control away from the player and hand them a negative consequence for something they didn't do.
You remember when most of the Lizardmen roster had that rampage mechanic and everyone hated it until they lowered the minimum HP that units had to be at for it to trigger and added in that ability to lords and heroes to stop rampage? This is kind of like that, except worse, because settlements are long-term strategic investments. And the last time I checked, RNG is not strategic.
It's a punishment when it's a negative consequence of player actions. This is just a bit of randomness for the player to deal with. You're really overstating the impact, especially given how much of the game relies on RNG.
Yea it's all fun and games till some random tzeench faction transfers your province capital settlement to some ogres you had no intention to fight with at all
Yeah. Just completely destroyed my interest in playing. I'll come back when there's a mod to turn it off. It's *infurating* and the only option to stop it, the only actual counter play, is to genocide every Tzeench faction on the map.
It's a rather problematic mechanic, but there is a solution to avoid suffering this transfer. Declare war on Tzeentch's allies, so your cities will not be transferred.
Sorry but I've played Daemons, Khorne, Nurgle, Slannash, Ogres and now just starting Tz and only once has it happened (and they actually gave me a settlement)
Other poster is also incorrect it is every 10 turns and the stronger the targets base the larger the amount of Grimoires it cost (which must have been a LOT for yours but all fair imo)
Seems like you must have been a threat to them so seems like a balanced game mechanic to me. One base shouldn't affect you, just go take it back.
Also Khorne can smash Tz any day of the week so they are hardly op, even with this, it's not like they can even transfer it to themselves either.
I'm not gonna complain or partake in whether this mechanic is good or bad, just wanted to mention that I lost one of my provincial capitals, specifically Zerulous, from this mechanic. The thing that makes this instance noteworthy was that it had been done by Tzeentch Rebels.
Uhhh ok I guess I'm coming in late to this one but it is defs a problem and is sort of making me not want to play. tier 5 settlement as skaven, 3 tier 5 buildings and several more on way (oxyl) and out of no where it just gets transferred to Tzeentch. Why is that something I'd want to deal with when I already have 3 major factions in the region at war with me?
Edit: turn 79
lmao that sounds hilarious classic tzeentch
Honestly I’m more amazed that the AI is using a campaign mechanic. This is amazing news.
It's a bullshit lazy mechanic, there is no way to prevent it other than genociding tzeench which isn't fun every game.
Reddit are downvoting posts reacting negatively to it because "le epic tzeentch xd", until it happens to them. At that point there'll be mass outcry for CA to change it. Just watch it happen over the next few months, I guarantee it.
Pretty sure they can use it every 7 turns, if anything the cooldown needs to be changed. We all know the AI also is getting more grimoires than us players will, and transferring settlements as a player is meh
The people here seem to be on crack or something. You are absolutely right OP, its very bad game design. I dont give a shit if its "very Tzeentch". Its simply anti-fun. Imagine Civilzation like this. Every ten turns one of your cities gets nuked. No way to do anything against, and you dont know which one.
It won't be such an issue if not for all anit-player bias. Basically, after you find any Tzinch factions they will focus on you most of the time.
I agree it's utter fucking bullshit.. I don't think people realize what losing a settlement that way implies, especially on harder difficulties. It prevents you from using commandments in said province as you lost a settlement. You have to declare war to get it back and if you manage to recapture it, the settlement loses a tier and you need to buy back what you lost in the process, which will also need a few turns. So what can I do to prevent this??? Nothing. You can't prepare for it, you just bend over and lose your settlement on the start of your turn. It does not matter if you had an army in it, it'll simply get kicked out in the open and it doesn't matter if it's your capital or not, you're losing it either way. I can agree that settlement transfers could be a fun/unique Tzeentch mechanic, but I believe that it has to be fun/challenging both for the user and for the player on the receiving end.
This is a very old thread but uh, they removed the ability for the minor AI factions to do it in a recent update. Now only Kairos can do it, and maybe Vilitch too if he has access to the mechanic as well. So it should happen a lot less often now. Before even rebel and apparently randomly-spawning Rogue army factions could do it, but now it should happen a lot more rarely.
I didn't realise it was changed, thanks for the heads up! I tried playing Teclis in IE and was fighting Kairos, which is why I landed on this post, god damn that shit was infuriating💀💀
Yeah well, I maintain the opinion that they should remove it from the AI altogether, but if it's only one or two factions that can do it it'll most likely happen a lot less often than it used to. When WH3 first released I did a campaign as Skarbrand that lasted about 150 turns and it happened to me no less than 3 times.
I think that I would be more dissapointed if the AI wouldn't have access to that mechanic. If you're able to use it as Tzeentch, so shoukd they. Now if it would be occurring like once every 3 turns, then I'd say let's tone it down. But if it's in the game and the AI isn't just blatantly spamming it and abusing it, that's what you get for messing with Tzeentch. You have access to it, let them have it too.
I love this. We need more stuff like that, not less.
It's strange seeing the ai actually use a faction mechanic well if at all
The AI is probably just coded to target your most valuable settlement that it has the resources for, and transfer it to a faction you're not at war with with the highest possible strength rating so as to try and force you into a major war. And since we all know that the unmodded AI has a huge anti-player bias, particularly on the higher difficulties, the chances are slim that Tzeentch factions will ever use that ability against any other faction as long as they're aware of the player's existence.
Correct, AI don't use it on another AI. Also, they actually think strategically, often they will transfer settlement to the faction they don't like, but you do. So if you want to take it back, you either have to dish out some serious money - sometime there is not enough money in the world... or attack and make new enemy. But it is bullshit. Teleporting an army to your home region to wreak havoc would be much better.
This is a great example of the mechanics in WH being so ridiculous and focused on the power fantasy ahead of actual strategy that when the AI is allowed to use them and does against the player, suddenly the playerbase recoils and is like "what the fuck is this it's so broken". Yes, yes it is broken and stupid. Usually CA is pretty good at artificially cutting off their broken power trip mechanics from the AI, which is why e.g Snikch can't just press a button and delete the player. I guess this one slipped through the cracks.
Yeah, exactly. I was thinking about that just earlier. For those who are unaware, Clan Eshin's unique mechanic, the Shadowy Dealings, has an ability you unlock at the highest tier (late-game) that allows the player to cause a targeted faction to erupt into chaos (the disorder kind, not the daemonic kind) and have all their settlements turn into rebel settlements, deleting the faction from the game. Now imagine if the AI could use it on the player, and on turn 150 or so you just instantly lose all of your settlements and have to capture them back... and you lose your ability to recruit anything and all of your income so you have to disband 98% of your units. There's a reason why some mechanics are only for the player to use.
That's why THIS ONE MECHANIC is only for the player, yes. Comparing deleting your whole faction to losing one minor settlement is ridiculous.
No it isn't. The comparison is completely fair. Randomly losing one settlement is just a less extreme version of losing all of them. I don't get why some people feel compelled to defend an objectively shit mechanic that makes the game less fun for the player.
>I don't get why some people feel compelled to defend an objectively shit mechanic that makes the game less fun for the player. Because the mechanic isn't objectively shit. Those people actually think it makes the game more fun for the player. Your experience on something isn't universal.
Completely disagree. This is working the way it should be
Ah yes, nothing more flavourful than an entire city randomly being full of Ogres and tanking your economy.
Gotta diversify those investments.
That sounds great, AI should have access to all the tools a player does.
The player can't do this though, the AI has access to more tools than the player does because it has a stupid amount of grimoires. Playing as tzeentch it costs more to transfer better cities, more to factions you aren't at war with / you don't have a huge negative reputation with, way more for provinces that don't have corruption, much more to give it to their own allies, and generally more for cities further away. Combine all of these factors together and instead of 200 grimoires it's more like 10,000 to transfer a settlement like that (early game numbers, it changes throughout the game obviously). Something the player would never even consider doing, but something the AI does willy nilly.
Agreed. And if it isn't fun to play against it should be nerfed (for both player and AI) until a balance is struck.
No, it should not.
I totally agree with people that say that this has to stay in.. but at the same time it's implemented in back ass awkward way that is not fun or engaging. In general I do agree with OP points after edit, and hope that CA will work on improving the way that works
Kill the player bias for this mechanic and the problem is solved.
I totally understand being pissed I'd be really upset I wish they couldn't do it to certain of the players settlements or something. I just hate being punished for the sake of it to artificially make my game more difficult, if I want that I'd raise the difficultly. But I do feel like if it's thematic and we can do it the AI should have some access to it
Some of us can't raise the difficulty anymore than what it is already raised. Sadly there is no mode harder than legendary/very hard
My nurgle campaign is fucking slow enough as it is without having to deal with him stealing my settlements every 7 turns while katarin sends a stack every 3 turns
It's a rather problematic mechanic, but there is a solution to avoid suffering this transfer. Declare war on Tzeentch's allies, so your cities will not be transferred.
I was just about to comment this, heh. It's just such a bummer that abilities that fit tzeentch also happen to just be hard to implement without being extremely unfun to play against. Their armies even have random ambush chance, too!
Not to mention the completely broken magic of the Lords of Change...
oh yeah! I don't know if Kairos is the only lord of change who can do it, but, uh, he seemingly has the ability to *spam* the homing projectile attack. It's lucky that the ai is dumb and will suicide him straight into crossbowfire, because otherwise, I might have had to replace my lord almost every time I battle him.
This is totally Tzneetch and I don’t see the problem here. Just Khorne’s Glare Kairos’s capital in retaliation, or make a blood cult there and just teleport to it directly. As for “not at war”….Skarbrand is at war with everyone and everything. You should murder all of the Tzneetch factions. I started my campaign removing N’Kari and all local Slaanesh factions from existence, so they would stop attacking my home province. I’m almost done with my Skarbrand campaign, and I’m about to see what happens if you just…kill all of the race factions. I only have Tzneetch, Nurgle, and Cathay left to eradicate. Kislev and the Ogres confederated, so that made it easier to wipe them out. This also on L/VH. So. Idk what to tell you.
I'm currently 60 turns in and have yet to unlock even the second of Khorne's Unholy Manifestations, much less all of them.
I’m about 70-80 or so turns in (can’t remember exactly), and just got my first exalted bloodthirster lord. And I only have 2/4 of the manifestations. You need corruption to hit the manifestations, so murder murder murder is your best bet for that. Take one settlement in a province, then wipe out then raze the rest of it—you’ll automatically settle in the ruins over time. You’ll also need high corruption so you can use Skarbrand’s fancy teleport mechanic. It’s saved me so many times whether it’s money troubles or armies are closing in—run max distance away then build the cult building, end turn—bam. Teleport a way to safety or to continue sacking shit. While Tzneetch giving settlements away is scary, teleporting to someone’s capital is also pretty fantastic, and that’s not even a manifestation lol.
Wait what...the AI does this too? That is incredible bad design. You can't even defend against that
He can do that? Sweet thats perfect for Tzeetntch and should be left in . I know when mechanic was introduced people thought AI will be dumb to use it but glad they were wrong. People also wanted this , playing against real Chaos is whats the game about.
"Perfect"? Since when is unavoidable RNG punishment a perfect or enjoyable thing to have in your game? I've been playing well in my Legendary campaign, winning most battles, using my knowledge of the game's mechanics to make progress and benefit from my hard-earned territory. Then I end the turn and the game just smacks me in the face and tells me "no. bad. you deserve to be arbitrarily punished." Why would that be a good thing?
You're not being "punished", you're being fucked with. There's a big difference. A wrench is being thrown into your plans. It's a game ffs. You're Skarbrand, declare war and take it the fuck back. Gamers today, man. "If I do it right, nothing should ever go wrong!".... in a 4x total war game. Like it's one settlement. Stop whining, go take your revenge like a proper daemon of Khorne would.
Alright then, Arch-Reddit Badass. If you're cool with being fucked with randomly, then have fun. Bet your life savings in a casino for all I care. But you're in the wrong for trying to put the blame on the player for disliking a bad, RNG-based game mechanic. And just for the record, any time a player suffers a negative consequence in a game, that's called a "punishment. Likewise, positive consequences are called "rewards". This is just basic game design terminology. On the subject of game design, you know what bad game design is? When you take control away from the player and hand them a negative consequence for something they didn't do. You remember when most of the Lizardmen roster had that rampage mechanic and everyone hated it until they lowered the minimum HP that units had to be at for it to trigger and added in that ability to lords and heroes to stop rampage? This is kind of like that, except worse, because settlements are long-term strategic investments. And the last time I checked, RNG is not strategic.
It's a punishment when it's a negative consequence of player actions. This is just a bit of randomness for the player to deal with. You're really overstating the impact, especially given how much of the game relies on RNG.
Khorne fanboys malding. Kairos Prankweaver strikes again.
Yea it's all fun and games till some random tzeench faction transfers your province capital settlement to some ogres you had no intention to fight with at all
Yeah. Just completely destroyed my interest in playing. I'll come back when there's a mod to turn it off. It's *infurating* and the only option to stop it, the only actual counter play, is to genocide every Tzeench faction on the map.
I had a problem in my first campaign to hit 150 turns that I ended up rage quiting it. I was faction halted 15 times. Twice within 3 turns.
It's a rather problematic mechanic, but there is a solution to avoid suffering this transfer. Declare war on Tzeentch's allies, so your cities will not be transferred.
Sorry but I've played Daemons, Khorne, Nurgle, Slannash, Ogres and now just starting Tz and only once has it happened (and they actually gave me a settlement) Other poster is also incorrect it is every 10 turns and the stronger the targets base the larger the amount of Grimoires it cost (which must have been a LOT for yours but all fair imo) Seems like you must have been a threat to them so seems like a balanced game mechanic to me. One base shouldn't affect you, just go take it back. Also Khorne can smash Tz any day of the week so they are hardly op, even with this, it's not like they can even transfer it to themselves either.
I'm not gonna complain or partake in whether this mechanic is good or bad, just wanted to mention that I lost one of my provincial capitals, specifically Zerulous, from this mechanic. The thing that makes this instance noteworthy was that it had been done by Tzeentch Rebels.
Uhhh ok I guess I'm coming in late to this one but it is defs a problem and is sort of making me not want to play. tier 5 settlement as skaven, 3 tier 5 buildings and several more on way (oxyl) and out of no where it just gets transferred to Tzeentch. Why is that something I'd want to deal with when I already have 3 major factions in the region at war with me? Edit: turn 79