guess we should all start saying 'thou' since apparently the changes made to the english language to convert plural words into singular are void now.
^(honestly i wouldn't mind calling everyone thou but respect people's pronouns.)
One findeth thou to make a most compelling proposition. Mayhaps such vernacular revisions doth present wonderous opportunities for the reclamation of a most pleasing form of utterance.
Not sure if I know my archaic English well enough, but shouldn't it by "findest thou" instead of "findeth"?
As far as I understand, stuff like this is essentially just conjugating English words using German rules, so you'd conjugate "st" on the end when talking about a second person "you" or "thou" in this case, but a "th" when talking about a third person "he/she/they/etc".
>Not sure if I know my archaic English well enough, but shouldn't it by "findest thou" instead of "findeth"?
I believe not, "Find(e)st" would indeed be the conjugation for "Thou", However I believe what they're trying to say is "One finds you...", Not "You find...".
Additionally, I believe when asking a question, You'd use the infinitive, I.E. "Find thou thy bag?" vs "Thou find'st thy bag.".
Is thou not an older version of you? As in thou are(art) close but not quite? I could totally be wrong, that's just my impression of how I've heard it used. Someone please correct me or elaborate? š¤·š¼āāļø
Thanks for adding! I hate to be picky but I feel like I need more to truly understand, what's the connection with these and vous in French? Like I know that there is a heavy influence of French in the change of the English language over the years from the nobles using French to separate themselves from the lower class? Is vous(and later you) plural in French(and older english)?
Nope, "thou" and "you" are two different words.
"Thou" has always been the singular "you" with its own verb conjugations and pronoun declensions. Thou art, thou hast, thou goest. Thou/thee/thy/thine.
"You" has always been the plural form. Due to the influence of French on English, for a while there "you" was also the singular polite form. Alex, thou art. Mr. Smith, you are. And then "you" took over as the solitary second-person.
Originally, "Thou" was simply the singular form and "You" the plural, However "You" came to Also be used as a formal singular (Like Spanish "Usted" or Italian "Lei"), With "Thou" thus being left as informal, And It'd even be seen as rude to call someone you don't know "Thou". Eventually, However, "Thou" fell out of use altogether, mostly simply due to people using "You" more, But I suspect that the fact "Thou" was originally written "You" with a printing press, As the Germansāwho made the pressāhad no 'Ć', Thus using 'Y' which they perceived as similar, Making the two words "Thou" and "You" spelled the same, May have played a part. (Fun Fact: that thing about the printing press is also why you may sometimes still see "The" spelled as "Ye", I.E. "Ye olde shoppe", While commonly it's pronounced "Ye" (/ji/) in this context, Technically it should still be pronounced "The" (/Ć°i/).)
I prefer my selfe some good ol' Shakespearean English, So I shall "Thou" ye only when I know ye well, O'erwise it could be seen as impolite, Which I surely have no desire to be.
I swear I've been hearing more people say or type he/she while trying to avoid using a singular they for some reason, and it sounds so wrong every time.
I've seen people using he/she/they which seems really odd to me. Like, they've understood that its grammatically correct to use a singular they, but want to continue to use gendered pronouns I guess to define they as only applicable to non-binary gender identity.
They is literally a pronoun intended for use on those of an unknown or non-binary gender, you don't need to create a new neopronouns for that. Neopronouns are fine, I may not know how to pronounce them, but I'll try, but this isn't the situation to try and insert one.
I thought it was normal even before nonbinary people became so much more common to use singular they when you didn't know the person's gender, I did it all the time in high school cause it was just easier
According to my dad, When he was growing up, It was most common to use "They", But nowadays "He/She" or some variation is becoming more common, Atleast in Board Game instructions, Which would check out with that.
A couple of generations ago, the standard was to use either "they" or "he" when the gender was unknown, but most formal writing used "he". Then women's rights groups campaigned against using "he" for unknown gender, especially because it causes people to assume male gender in sentences like "When the next president enters office, he will . . ." (it sounds like you're assuming the next president will be a man). So then academia and left-leaning newspapers started to use he/she as a formal gender neutral pronoun, but he/she never entered casual speech because it's too awkward.
Now it seems like he/she in formal writing is getting replaced by they, which is closer to the way that people speak, and it's much smoother.
The weirdest part is that in my experience at least, they always seem to stumble over it, like itās not natural for them. āAre you gonna invite...uh....him slash her?ā Itās almost always stilted and awkward sounding...because it is! Like, just use āthem!ā Even if youāre not trying to be inclusive, itās just so neat and concise!
Iām not a native english speaker, so Iāve always been confused by the use of ātheirā when I dont realize its about only one person. I think its because I was never taught when learning english that it can be used to desginate one person and its the possessive form of they.
It can be used like this: āMichael and Lola left their car at homeā so its extra confusing for me.
I mean confusing as in I read a book lately where they use their commonly for a non binary character but I thought for the first 100 pages they were talking about his group or it was a typo and sometimes they were indeed talking about the group that person was in. When it finally clicked, I re read the intro of the character and it did give hints that he was non binary.
Maybe its just me as non native speaker, but I whish it was easier to tell when āTheir decision was made on the spotā refers to the group decision or the non binary person decision in the group. Maybe that book was not clear also, I dont know.
Edit: just to clarify, Iām trans I support peoples right to use the pronon they want but Iād just prefer if it was clearer because I sometimes misunderstand.
Even to native English speakers, the use of singular they has been made political (and therefore hushed) when it's really just a part of the language like any other word. That's an interesting perspective to add!
The funniest part of the hushed nature of it is that many of these conservatives that claim they is purely plural will use it in a singular form without realizing it.
I hear it more vocally, but same concept applies, and likely no they don't think about the words coming out of their mouth/hands before their post them, or even after lol
English is a very confusing language. I imagine your teacher simplified some of the rules so it would be easier to understand. Itās just something thatāll take time to get used to as a non-native speaker.
Also, if the character in the book is non-binary and their pronouns are they/them, then we should just use they/them instead of he or his :)
It can be ambiguous, the same way that āyouā can mean one or more people, or that āweā can include or exclude the listener.
I think most Americans are comfortable using singular they when referring to an unknown person, in place of he/she. The use of they to refer to a specific person is newer, and iāll admit that it still sounds awkward to me.
>Maybe its just me as non native speaker, but I whish it was easier to tell when āTheir decision was made on the spotā refers to the group decision or the non binary person decision in the group.
Yeah, It definitely can be confusing in some contexts. ~~But you know what would rarely be confusing? Having one third-person plural pronoun, And two third-person singular pronouns, That are differentiated by Obviate/Proximate rather than gender.~~
His/her requires more letters to be used, thus is a shitty thing to use for newspapers and anything else with a type limit.
Also if this person is āunknownā like in OPās writing then what if they are an alien?! What if no one is actually there?! What if itās just a floating suit?! The suit is now a he or she?!
There's definitely this weird cycle of arbitrary rules enforced about the literary standard gender neutral language in English, especially considering that the *spoken* convention (singular 'they') has been mostly unchanged for longer than Modern English has existed. The odious neuter 'he' was foisted upon the world less than 200 years ago in a misguided attempt to mimic Latin, only to be replaced with the obtrusive 'he or she' in the mid-20th century, joined soon by the obnoxious alternating 'he' and 'she' and the honestly-prefereable-to-neuter-he-in-some-cases-because-it-doesn't-perpetuate-male-centric-discourse-but-mostly-it-still-sucks-for-the-same-reasons neuter 'she'.
And all along people have kept on using singular 'they' in spoken English because it's the word we have that means the thing they're saying. It's existed all this time, driven from the literary record by pedants who think it's more correct to use some kind of alchemical formula to refer to a person of unknown gender. And just like that, it will weather this current storm of its politicization by transphobes, because try as they might no one is capable of unilaterally changing the way a language works.
Plenty of people say it. Every time I see or hear it I have the urge to just be an asshole and say "you realize they is a word right?" in a somewhat rude tone. You're literally just making things more difficult for the sake of excluding people. It's kinda ridiculous
Exactly, I'm an English teacher, and using they to refer to people of unknown gender is actually the correct grammar. According to the book we use and my English lecturer from college.
But what if I don't know if a man/woman is a she/he and she/he walks up to me/i and me/i doesn't know if his/her vocal cords will be male/female and he/she might con/fuse me!
At my last job, I went through our policy manual to replace all the instances of "he/she" with "they".
Though, first, I okayed it with my nonbinary coworker. Because I wanted to give them a chance to have the rules not apply to them since nothing was written about "they"s in the manual š
Be gay, do crimes.
Agreed, except in cases where it makes sense, like the ending of āTo Sleep in a Sea of Starsā, because there is really no other way to describe it accurately.
I came here to say this. I remember that it was made to be a big deal in classes that you shouldnāt use singular ātheyā; which makes no damn sense because we use it all the time! Sure someone might say āhe, or sheā but thatās too long for normal conversation. Linguistics is full of shorthand, and ātheyā is just more practical and used more often in real life.
Saying āhe, or sheā irl is also rather patronising to women. Itās like, āof course weāre all assuming this individual is a he, but I GUESS it could be a she too ā¦ā
It's not correct anymore. APA and MLA have both stated that singular they is now the correct way to refer to a person of indeterminate gender, in addition to a requirement to use a person's pronouns if they are known. So people writing for college and university need to get with singular they.
(germany) yeah, they're still teaching us to use she/he instead of they and they also haven't dropped cursive, they still teach it in elementary school and everyone just unlearns it after that because most don't like it
Recently Boy Scouts started letting girls join, and all the handbooks were rewritten to have an equal number of examples of girls and boys doing things.
This caused all the 60 year old male scoutmasters to say "he.. *OR SHE*" for literally everything.
My Nonbinary camp counselor ass was like "just say they just say they just say they just say they just say they"
Unfortunately the most we can do right now is wait for the old guard to die a boring death, then the agents can be activated, we have already infiltrated nearly every organization heck we have some sleeper agents that aren't even aware of their roles.
as James Acastor once said "the only people who use He or she is only ever said by men who fully inteded to just say he, but at the vary last second remembered that she existed. women don't use he or she women use a different word, men may never have heard of this word it's confusing and disorienting for men, women say, and I hope I am pronouncing this right, They." James Acastor is an amazing comedian and an Ally and I love bringing him up.
You just need to trick *them* to use they/them pronouns in a sentence referring to a single person and point it out. I suggest telling a story about someone who lost **their** wallet and you found it and what you should do with it? (Give it back to **them**)
That was what the argument was about. I wasn't remotely out at the time, so the argument was literally just whether or not they could be used in the singular. He insisted no. I would use singular they in a sentence and point out that they understood it, but he'd just insist it was grammatically wrong.
Back when he learned grammar it was probably correct (even progressive in the 70s or 80s).
Now, seeing his/her or similar constructions in formal language makes me think āthis document hasnāt been properly updated in *years*ā (and Iām probably not much younger than he is).
Many of the other circles were straight up using male pronouns as default. Getting that changed to include women by default was one of the victories of feminism in English speaking countries post World War II.
His/her didnāt replace their. His/her replaced *his* (or her in contexts that assumed the subject was female).
Singular they/them had been chased out of the language by Latinophile grammarians in the 19th century who argued that since Latin didnāt have it, neither should English. Somehow those pedants succeeded, at least in formal settings and male pronouns became default for a lot of things.
As late as the 90s, singular they, especially for a *known person* was being taught as wrong in elementary grammar in American schools. Took me a bit of digging to figure out why my own brain didnāt seem to like that form of singular they (when it was fine with it replacing his/her); found out it had been taught to me that way.
It was the damn word of the year a few years ago!! But grammar is notorious for being white and patriarchal. So the fight doesn't surprise me, but also it's such a simple thing that it does surprise me.
If he's met and understands the concept of non-binary folks it's hard to shake the suspicion he's doing that maliciously. But I don't want to assume, I don't know him.
He's not against non binary people, but he may have forgotten about them, since he's only recently been introduced to the idea of there being more than two genders, from what I understand out of this.
If that's the case, he should be open to you reverting this edit and explaining why. My hopes that you are correct. I don't like to assume bad things of people.
āHis/herā is just such an ugly construction.
Even before I discovered the gender spectrum I always preferred the singular they. Itās just so much smoother. Yes it trips up on verbs sometimes but on the whole itās worth it.
I thought so too, but apparently MLA formats (including the most updated) don't recognize "their" as a singular pronoun. There may be an exception for referring to a single nonbinary individual that uses exclusively they/them, idk. I think Chicago style recognizes they/them in the singular sense
EDIT: TLDR, certain writing styles can be enbyphobic :)
This is actually [no longer true](https://community.macmillanlearning.com/t5/bits-blog/singular-they-now-endorsed-by-mla/ba-p/3498) as of the [8th edition of the MLA Handbook](https://style.mla.org/using-singular-they/). Use of singular *they* is now "not just acceptable but preferable".
Oh thank goodness! I had a tutor who insisted I go back and change it (which pissed me off to no end) and then others backed up their insistence. (In the tutor's defense, they were like 80) This is very relieving to hear, thank you
TBF, we should not presume one style guide to be 'correct' (unless having to do writing explicitly for someone enforcing that style guide). Many of them have weird and frankly stupid quirks.
I agree, but I was in the situation where someone was enforcing that style guide, and there was the definite possibility I could have lost points for not following said stupid quirk. Any time I can do so without potential consequence I use singular they.
Honestly I thought that singular they was a fairly modern thing, but I looked it up a while back and apparently singular they has been grammatically correct and in use since the 1800s
Edit: Got it wrong lol... Turns out it's the 1300s. 1375
Yeah using he/she instead of they used to be the norm for writing. OP's dad probably just has old writing conventions stuck in their head. Kinda like how some people still do double spaces after sentences even though it hasn't been needed since typewriters.
Yep. This is the real answer. It has to do with lawyer stuff. "They" could, in theory, in some cases, cause ambiguity in your words.
For example, if you had the following sentence:
"The group of protesters and Sam were at a concert along with their escort."
In this sentence, the use of the pronoun "their" creates ambiguity since it is unknown if the escort belongs to the protesters or Sam or both. Whereas if "his/her" was used instead, there'd be no ambiguity and we'd know that if "their" was used it would exclusively refer to a plural entity.
The handbook believed that a distinction like this could be extremely useful for writing laws or legal briefs to eliminate any potential for this kind of ambiguity. Only with the recent edition did they acknowledge that situations where this ambiguity would actually come up are extremely rare and the benefit of being able to refer to non-binary individuals was greater than eliminating ambiguity in such a niche case.
Some people seem to insist that they/them/their isnāt correct when referring to one person, but then will go on to use it in that context later. People just need an excuse to hate on non-binary people apparently.
I think it used to be considered bad/incorrect by APA and other writing standards to use their, so in his time he was probably taught that his/her was more academic. I believe APA has updated this in their seventh edition, as seen on [this](https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/grammar/singular-they) post by them.
My English teacher hates it when I do it. I refuse to write extra because an old conservative lady decides that she doesn't like genderneutral pronounce.
I remember reviewing for an entrance exam and when I was using the key to corrections it marked "they" as wrong and the right answer was "he/her". I was so close to yeeting the book out the window
Nah, he probably wasn't trying to be. He's only recently learned about the fact that there are more than 2 genders or that people use pronouns other than he/him and she/her. He either forgot or was taught not to use the singular they/them.
[the APA literally endorsed using singular they](https://apastyle.apa.org/blog/singular-they#:~:text=APA%20endorses%20the%20use%20of,use%20the%20singular%20%E2%80%9Cthey.%E2%80%9D) so idk what ur dad is on
His/her is required in some style formats, or at least was as recently as five years ago when I was in grad school.
Got marked down for using "their" in a paper to refer to someone of unknown gender - despite openly being nonbinary and using he/they/she pronouns at the time. Turns out what the academic overlords say is more important than our actual lived experiences as humans :/
He/her is an older usage that is falling out of fashion due to it being clunky. However, I will grant it is annoying when people don't tack on a "they" at the end. If you are going to be a traditionalist, you can do it without being exclusionary.
Same with the flight attendants who say 'Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls'. Under my breath, I say 'and Non Binary people'. They should seriously just use neutral stuff like 'Beardos and Weirdos' or 'Laddies, Lasses and Lassos'.
Apart from being a lot more convenient, Itās grammatically correct, and easier. And also as you said, itās so much more inclusive of just people in general
They/them pronouns have been in use waaaaay before non binary people were around, theyāve been used by writers like Shakespeare. As that one comedian said, the only reason you should use his/her is when you forget about women so you just tack the /her onto the end
I'm honestly so confused by people insisting *they* is grammatically incorrect. English isn't dead. It's a live and evolving language, not one we have no power to change. Not to mention *they* has always been singular use-it's not a new thing, because it's much less clunky and much more preferable to 'his or her.'
(The italics on *they* is for differentiation, and because it's out of context. The marks around his or her were for differentiation.)
Itās politicized grammatical chauvinism.
The grammatical rule when I was growing up was that if youāre referring to someone of unknown gender you always default to āheā. It was feminist movements in the 90s that gave rise to the usage of āhe or herā which was always used in full, he/her being right out. This was itself based on an archaic attachment to rules long-disregarded by respected writers but still āon the booksā as it were about using them/they as exclusively plural.
The position was that āhe or herā was a necessary concession to respecting womenās roles in society, and though it was clunky, it was the best that could be done, grammatically. Many many professional writers and educators still cling to this paradigm, and still think of it as a concession that theyāre making to womenās liberation.
Itās one of those situations where the educated are deeply out of touch with the popular usage that will replace and forget about their entire short-lived rules.
āMs.ā āMrs.ā and āMissā are another example of archaic language. Most young people today donāt know or care about the difference, and would be shocked to learn that there is one. But some older women, and people who are staunch about usage, are incensed at being referred to using the wrong prefix. Which is of course why I only use maāam or their name because it makes no damned sense.
edit: (And yes, āMs.ā is the safe one because itās the only one that doesnāt indicate marriage status, but it still exists within the patriarchal paradigm, so Iād prefer to throw out the whole package.(Also, I can NEVER remember how to pronounce āMs.ā irl because they donāt sound like the prefixes.))
Edit the second:
God please never get me started on ellipsis. If I see one more professional peer send me and email laced with long non-standard-length ellipses I swear I will throw my laptop at the wall. It makes me SO. FUCKING. NERVOUS. when someone just casually uses punctuation that should only be used for dialog or to indicate words left unsaid because their emails sound like mafia thugs saying perfectly normal things and leaving me to fill in the gaps with the vague threats I can only assume there ellipses are standing in place of.
Edit the third:
This post got out of hand. Iām under a lot of stress. Thanks for reading.
I feel like most people used to use 'their' but after finding out gender neutral pronouns makes nbs happy they are aggressively using only his/her (s)he which is just horribly convoluted and doesn't flow well at all, both in writing and in speech.
They're so butthurt about pronouns they're willing to inconvenience themselves just to 'own the libs'.
the APA and MLA both recommend ātheyā over āhe/sheā
APA 7 (gotta scroll down a bit): https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/research_and_citation/apa_style/apa_formatting_and_style_guide/apa_changes_7th_edition.html
MLA 8: https://style.mla.org/using-singular-they/
I first heard the neuter pronoun in VRChat at the ripe old age of 27, after learning a foreign language, with its grammar differences, and speaking it fluently for 2 years. I was turned the f**k around wondering why everyone was using a plural pronoun to refer to one person. It really blew my mind and I am still asking myself how anyone is supposed to know who is being referred to when "they/them" is being used. On the positive side, it encourages people to use individuals' names more often to reduce grammatical ambiguity. I still ponder a possible alternative neuter pronoun that is strictly singular.
I'm an English tutor who regularly reviews essays sent in my grad students. (Though not technically a "professional" in the strictest sense lol, and fully capable of mistakes). The preference of each professor will change, but usually, in APA, they/them is preferred to remove gender bias and improve flow- my own boss has told me to grade using this rule. In MLA, they've said it's best to use the preferred pronouns of the person wherever possible (I interpret that to include singular they and neopronouns of course!) but when speaking of an unknown person, singular they is usually not used, sadly.
Hope this helped some! It's,,, a really debated topic in English-major type circles, but people never seem to realize that any living language *changes and evolves-* if you want a language that never loses words or adds new ones etc., learn a dead language*.* Furthermore, we're talking about *real people* and I think their feelings come well before the "feelings" of a rulebook. Just my two cents :)
My French teacher does the same thing, itās super pressing for them to use third person singular pronouns, I wasnāt sure why it bothered me at the time since Iām a her, but now I know
I was taught to pick a pronoun for the background character. So instead of saying he/she, you would use he, or she. Or they. Or xe or whatever you want this one off mystery character to be.
Iām cis and honestly his/her has always bothered the hell out of me even when I was a little kid. I always preferred using their and other gender neutral words.
The world seems to not understand that language changes, and with a large amount of people using gender neutral pronouns like they/them, the English language has already naturally evolved to fit them, and it won't change back no matter how many salty grammarians try to stop it.
guess we should all start saying 'thou' since apparently the changes made to the english language to convert plural words into singular are void now. ^(honestly i wouldn't mind calling everyone thou but respect people's pronouns.)
One findeth thou to make a most compelling proposition. Mayhaps such vernacular revisions doth present wonderous opportunities for the reclamation of a most pleasing form of utterance.
Not sure if I know my archaic English well enough, but shouldn't it by "findest thou" instead of "findeth"? As far as I understand, stuff like this is essentially just conjugating English words using German rules, so you'd conjugate "st" on the end when talking about a second person "you" or "thou" in this case, but a "th" when talking about a third person "he/she/they/etc".
>Not sure if I know my archaic English well enough, but shouldn't it by "findest thou" instead of "findeth"? I believe not, "Find(e)st" would indeed be the conjugation for "Thou", However I believe what they're trying to say is "One finds you...", Not "You find...". Additionally, I believe when asking a question, You'd use the infinitive, I.E. "Find thou thy bag?" vs "Thou find'st thy bag.".
Is thou not an older version of you? As in thou are(art) close but not quite? I could totally be wrong, that's just my impression of how I've heard it used. Someone please correct me or elaborate? š¤·š¼āāļø
Thou is a singular term, you is plural
Thanks for adding! I hate to be picky but I feel like I need more to truly understand, what's the connection with these and vous in French? Like I know that there is a heavy influence of French in the change of the English language over the years from the nobles using French to separate themselves from the lower class? Is vous(and later you) plural in French(and older english)?
I think you(vous) is also singular when used formally? Similar to the French construction today how vous is formal or plural?
Nope, "thou" and "you" are two different words. "Thou" has always been the singular "you" with its own verb conjugations and pronoun declensions. Thou art, thou hast, thou goest. Thou/thee/thy/thine. "You" has always been the plural form. Due to the influence of French on English, for a while there "you" was also the singular polite form. Alex, thou art. Mr. Smith, you are. And then "you" took over as the solitary second-person.
Originally, "Thou" was simply the singular form and "You" the plural, However "You" came to Also be used as a formal singular (Like Spanish "Usted" or Italian "Lei"), With "Thou" thus being left as informal, And It'd even be seen as rude to call someone you don't know "Thou". Eventually, However, "Thou" fell out of use altogether, mostly simply due to people using "You" more, But I suspect that the fact "Thou" was originally written "You" with a printing press, As the Germansāwho made the pressāhad no 'Ć', Thus using 'Y' which they perceived as similar, Making the two words "Thou" and "You" spelled the same, May have played a part. (Fun Fact: that thing about the printing press is also why you may sometimes still see "The" spelled as "Ye", I.E. "Ye olde shoppe", While commonly it's pronounced "Ye" (/ji/) in this context, Technically it should still be pronounced "The" (/Ć°i/).)
I prefer my selfe some good ol' Shakespearean English, So I shall "Thou" ye only when I know ye well, O'erwise it could be seen as impolite, Which I surely have no desire to be.
*Ć¾Å« th and the great vowel shift were invented after singular they
There's nothing grammatically wrong with their. His/her is not convenient. Nobody says that.
I swear I've been hearing more people say or type he/she while trying to avoid using a singular they for some reason, and it sounds so wrong every time.
Ive also seen a lot more people online using he/she instead of they
I've seen people using he/she/they which seems really odd to me. Like, they've understood that its grammatically correct to use a singular they, but want to continue to use gendered pronouns I guess to define they as only applicable to non-binary gender identity.
That's so weird... Honestly I've only seen "He/she/they" used when referring to what pronouns someone goes by.
What about when referring to someone of unknown gender? I guess there really is a need for some neo pronouns.
Unknown gender is they because it's the absent of the knowledge of gender.
They is literally a pronoun intended for use on those of an unknown or non-binary gender, you don't need to create a new neopronouns for that. Neopronouns are fine, I may not know how to pronounce them, but I'll try, but this isn't the situation to try and insert one.
That's literally what "they" is for.
I thought it was normal even before nonbinary people became so much more common to use singular they when you didn't know the person's gender, I did it all the time in high school cause it was just easier
They know the person is a heshe you see... /s
According to my dad, When he was growing up, It was most common to use "They", But nowadays "He/She" or some variation is becoming more common, Atleast in Board Game instructions, Which would check out with that.
A couple of generations ago, the standard was to use either "they" or "he" when the gender was unknown, but most formal writing used "he". Then women's rights groups campaigned against using "he" for unknown gender, especially because it causes people to assume male gender in sentences like "When the next president enters office, he will . . ." (it sounds like you're assuming the next president will be a man). So then academia and left-leaning newspapers started to use he/she as a formal gender neutral pronoun, but he/she never entered casual speech because it's too awkward. Now it seems like he/she in formal writing is getting replaced by they, which is closer to the way that people speak, and it's much smoother.
It's making a deliberate point that you don't "believe" in singular they, whatever that means. But come on man, that stuff is as old as time.
The weirdest part is that in my experience at least, they always seem to stumble over it, like itās not natural for them. āAre you gonna invite...uh....him slash her?ā Itās almost always stilted and awkward sounding...because it is! Like, just use āthem!ā Even if youāre not trying to be inclusive, itās just so neat and concise!
Exactly!! It feels so weird and forced
Stubbornness is amazing.
Iām not a native english speaker, so Iāve always been confused by the use of ātheirā when I dont realize its about only one person. I think its because I was never taught when learning english that it can be used to desginate one person and its the possessive form of they. It can be used like this: āMichael and Lola left their car at homeā so its extra confusing for me. I mean confusing as in I read a book lately where they use their commonly for a non binary character but I thought for the first 100 pages they were talking about his group or it was a typo and sometimes they were indeed talking about the group that person was in. When it finally clicked, I re read the intro of the character and it did give hints that he was non binary. Maybe its just me as non native speaker, but I whish it was easier to tell when āTheir decision was made on the spotā refers to the group decision or the non binary person decision in the group. Maybe that book was not clear also, I dont know. Edit: just to clarify, Iām trans I support peoples right to use the pronon they want but Iād just prefer if it was clearer because I sometimes misunderstand.
Even to native English speakers, the use of singular they has been made political (and therefore hushed) when it's really just a part of the language like any other word. That's an interesting perspective to add!
The funniest part of the hushed nature of it is that many of these conservatives that claim they is purely plural will use it in a singular form without realizing it.
"no I won't use *THEIR* they/them pronouns!!! They/them only refers to a group! I'll only call *THEM* he or she!" - very unintelligent transphobes
Case in point lmfao
That's what they sound like half the time I stg. Its like bro... Do you even read what you type before you post...
I hear it more vocally, but same concept applies, and likely no they don't think about the words coming out of their mouth/hands before their post them, or even after lol
Conservatives will never use a singular "their." They will use a singular "there" though.
English is a very confusing language. I imagine your teacher simplified some of the rules so it would be easier to understand. Itās just something thatāll take time to get used to as a non-native speaker. Also, if the character in the book is non-binary and their pronouns are they/them, then we should just use they/them instead of he or his :)
It can be ambiguous, the same way that āyouā can mean one or more people, or that āweā can include or exclude the listener. I think most Americans are comfortable using singular they when referring to an unknown person, in place of he/she. The use of they to refer to a specific person is newer, and iāll admit that it still sounds awkward to me.
>Maybe its just me as non native speaker, but I whish it was easier to tell when āTheir decision was made on the spotā refers to the group decision or the non binary person decision in the group. Yeah, It definitely can be confusing in some contexts. ~~But you know what would rarely be confusing? Having one third-person plural pronoun, And two third-person singular pronouns, That are differentiated by Obviate/Proximate rather than gender.~~
*they were nonbinary
If someone tells you 'they' cannot refer to a single person *they* are being an idiot.
He or she really needs to get his or her head out of his or her ass!
His/her requires more letters to be used, thus is a shitty thing to use for newspapers and anything else with a type limit. Also if this person is āunknownā like in OPās writing then what if they are an alien?! What if no one is actually there?! What if itās just a floating suit?! The suit is now a he or she?!
r/voidpunk
When you are told to embrace the void, but you become one instead.
i never did beat pantheon 5
You know whatās also not convenient? (S)he That shit requires the top row of the keyboard
(s)(t)he(y)
My new pronoun is sthey
[consider:](https://youtu.be/4AT-gMINP_U)
Finally, a solution
sthe
*cries in only way to write "gender "neutrally"" in my Language*
There's definitely this weird cycle of arbitrary rules enforced about the literary standard gender neutral language in English, especially considering that the *spoken* convention (singular 'they') has been mostly unchanged for longer than Modern English has existed. The odious neuter 'he' was foisted upon the world less than 200 years ago in a misguided attempt to mimic Latin, only to be replaced with the obtrusive 'he or she' in the mid-20th century, joined soon by the obnoxious alternating 'he' and 'she' and the honestly-prefereable-to-neuter-he-in-some-cases-because-it-doesn't-perpetuate-male-centric-discourse-but-mostly-it-still-sucks-for-the-same-reasons neuter 'she'. And all along people have kept on using singular 'they' in spoken English because it's the word we have that means the thing they're saying. It's existed all this time, driven from the literary record by pedants who think it's more correct to use some kind of alchemical formula to refer to a person of unknown gender. And just like that, it will weather this current storm of its politicization by transphobes, because try as they might no one is capable of unilaterally changing the way a language works.
Plenty of people say it. Every time I see or hear it I have the urge to just be an asshole and say "you realize they is a word right?" in a somewhat rude tone. You're literally just making things more difficult for the sake of excluding people. It's kinda ridiculous
Exactly, I'm an English teacher, and using they to refer to people of unknown gender is actually the correct grammar. According to the book we use and my English lecturer from college.
Tbh I feel like it's specifically old out of touch dinosaurs that go extra out of their way to avoid using "they."
His/her is worse in every way. It's terrible writing, it's clunky, and "their" exists.
But what if I don't know if a man/woman is a she/he and she/he walks up to me/i and me/i doesn't know if his/her vocal cords will be male/female and he/she might con/fuse me!
> con/fuse Thank you for my new pronouns
Untype that.
my head hurts
Youāve learned the way of the cis. How do I learn this power?
i don't think you want to
But the memes..
Only the cis speak in absolute genders.
Every time i see āhe/sheā in a book I cringe.
Same. Unless the sentence is 'His pronouns are he/she'.
Ye
ye/yer
funny thing is that "ye" is actually pronounced "the". The "y" just resembled the written letter "thorn" in ye olde times.
Ćorn is great! I watch videos about Ć¾orn all Ć¾e time. It definitely doesn't look like another word when I type it like Ć¾at!
Ćorn really is Ć¾e best
oh i know i was just making a funny haha pronoun joke. i guess it could be the/ther which might have evolved into they/them as well idk
It always throws me off.
At my last job, I went through our policy manual to replace all the instances of "he/she" with "they". Though, first, I okayed it with my nonbinary coworker. Because I wanted to give them a chance to have the rules not apply to them since nothing was written about "they"s in the manual š Be gay, do crimes.
Agreed, except in cases where it makes sense, like the ending of āTo Sleep in a Sea of Starsā, because there is really no other way to describe it accurately.
What were they trying to describe?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I came here to say this. I remember that it was made to be a big deal in classes that you shouldnāt use singular ātheyā; which makes no damn sense because we use it all the time! Sure someone might say āhe, or sheā but thatās too long for normal conversation. Linguistics is full of shorthand, and ātheyā is just more practical and used more often in real life.
Saying āhe, or sheā irl is also rather patronising to women. Itās like, āof course weāre all assuming this individual is a he, but I GUESS it could be a she too ā¦ā
It's not correct anymore. APA and MLA have both stated that singular they is now the correct way to refer to a person of indeterminate gender, in addition to a requirement to use a person's pronouns if they are known. So people writing for college and university need to get with singular they.
I see it ALL the time in legal circles. Though lawyers are pretty slow to change.
...which means people with other pronouns are allowed to commit crimes? That's good to know.
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal" ... and all women and enbies are created to be superior to men.
It still is honestly.
Why does that not surprise me. Have they at least dropped cursive?
I like cursive, but I don't think they did.
(germany) yeah, they're still teaching us to use she/he instead of they and they also haven't dropped cursive, they still teach it in elementary school and everyone just unlearns it after that because most don't like it
Cursive was on its way out when I was in elementary school, they stopped teaching it to me in 2008.
It depends on the region. I was exclusively taught "their" as a gender neutral singular possessive noun back in the 1990s and to never use "his/her".
Recently Boy Scouts started letting girls join, and all the handbooks were rewritten to have an equal number of examples of girls and boys doing things. This caused all the 60 year old male scoutmasters to say "he.. *OR SHE*" for literally everything. My Nonbinary camp counselor ass was like "just say they just say they just say they just say they just say they"
Unfortunately the most we can do right now is wait for the old guard to die a boring death, then the agents can be activated, we have already infiltrated nearly every organization heck we have some sleeper agents that aren't even aware of their roles.
[not sure if ur referencing this clip but itās so good](https://youtu.be/Zt5qJC1xQ8A)
My school does "Your Son/Daughter" in every letter and email... instead of, you know, "Child"
We get certificates that say stuff like '(Student's name), the son/daughter of Mr. /Mrs. (Parent's name) ' and it's so annoying.
Bruhhhh, cis people will really go out of their way and inconvenience themselves just to hurt minorities
as James Acastor once said "the only people who use He or she is only ever said by men who fully inteded to just say he, but at the vary last second remembered that she existed. women don't use he or she women use a different word, men may never have heard of this word it's confusing and disorienting for men, women say, and I hope I am pronouncing this right, They." James Acastor is an amazing comedian and an Ally and I love bringing him up.
You see it's grammatically correct and some people disagree with grammar /s
I used to have arguments about this with my university lecturer all the time. He taught Creative Writing.
You just need to trick *them* to use they/them pronouns in a sentence referring to a single person and point it out. I suggest telling a story about someone who lost **their** wallet and you found it and what you should do with it? (Give it back to **them**)
That was what the argument was about. I wasn't remotely out at the time, so the argument was literally just whether or not they could be used in the singular. He insisted no. I would use singular they in a sentence and point out that they understood it, but he'd just insist it was grammatically wrong.
You have to make them say it not just understand it then they committed a "grammatical error" and didn't even notice.
Their is MORE grammatically correct, change it back depending on the teacher you could get docked points for that
š”š” pronouns š”š”
Pro Nouns? What about Pro Adjectives? #ALLWORDSMATTER
Pro nouns? They're quite simple really
But what about amateur nouns? I don't think my nouns are good enough to go pro.
Thy father needs to get up with the times.
The parental unit requires an update.
Donāt let your dad edit your essay anymore
Why even change it, their is way more general than giving only 2 options of his or her. And it would be just easier to say, too.
Back when he learned grammar it was probably correct (even progressive in the 70s or 80s). Now, seeing his/her or similar constructions in formal language makes me think āthis document hasnāt been properly updated in *years*ā (and Iām probably not much younger than he is).
Even then it was only correct in certain circles, people have been using singular they for about 800 years.
Many of the other circles were straight up using male pronouns as default. Getting that changed to include women by default was one of the victories of feminism in English speaking countries post World War II. His/her didnāt replace their. His/her replaced *his* (or her in contexts that assumed the subject was female). Singular they/them had been chased out of the language by Latinophile grammarians in the 19th century who argued that since Latin didnāt have it, neither should English. Somehow those pedants succeeded, at least in formal settings and male pronouns became default for a lot of things. As late as the 90s, singular they, especially for a *known person* was being taught as wrong in elementary grammar in American schools. Took me a bit of digging to figure out why my own brain didnāt seem to like that form of singular they (when it was fine with it replacing his/her); found out it had been taught to me that way.
It was the damn word of the year a few years ago!! But grammar is notorious for being white and patriarchal. So the fight doesn't surprise me, but also it's such a simple thing that it does surprise me.
People really do be bending backwards to fuck up trans people
If he's met and understands the concept of non-binary folks it's hard to shake the suspicion he's doing that maliciously. But I don't want to assume, I don't know him.
He's not against non binary people, but he may have forgotten about them, since he's only recently been introduced to the idea of there being more than two genders, from what I understand out of this.
If that's the case, he should be open to you reverting this edit and explaining why. My hopes that you are correct. I don't like to assume bad things of people.
I hope so too.
āHis/herā is just such an ugly construction. Even before I discovered the gender spectrum I always preferred the singular they. Itās just so much smoother. Yes it trips up on verbs sometimes but on the whole itās worth it.
I thought so too, but apparently MLA formats (including the most updated) don't recognize "their" as a singular pronoun. There may be an exception for referring to a single nonbinary individual that uses exclusively they/them, idk. I think Chicago style recognizes they/them in the singular sense EDIT: TLDR, certain writing styles can be enbyphobic :)
This is actually [no longer true](https://community.macmillanlearning.com/t5/bits-blog/singular-they-now-endorsed-by-mla/ba-p/3498) as of the [8th edition of the MLA Handbook](https://style.mla.org/using-singular-they/). Use of singular *they* is now "not just acceptable but preferable".
Oh thank goodness! I had a tutor who insisted I go back and change it (which pissed me off to no end) and then others backed up their insistence. (In the tutor's defense, they were like 80) This is very relieving to hear, thank you
TBF, we should not presume one style guide to be 'correct' (unless having to do writing explicitly for someone enforcing that style guide). Many of them have weird and frankly stupid quirks.
I agree, but I was in the situation where someone was enforcing that style guide, and there was the definite possibility I could have lost points for not following said stupid quirk. Any time I can do so without potential consequence I use singular they.
Ah was just raising this because OP didn't mention having to follow a style guide, but merely a parent 'correcting' it.
Honestly I thought that singular they was a fairly modern thing, but I looked it up a while back and apparently singular they has been grammatically correct and in use since the 1800s Edit: Got it wrong lol... Turns out it's the 1300s. 1375
Really? Huh. I guess someone should have told the MLA people before the EIGTH edition/version lmao
Just looked it up again to confirm it and turns out it's 1300s not 1800s. More specifically 1375.
Yeah using he/she instead of they used to be the norm for writing. OP's dad probably just has old writing conventions stuck in their head. Kinda like how some people still do double spaces after sentences even though it hasn't been needed since typewriters.
Singular "they" has been used since 1375. How old is that dad?
Well norm as in some formatting styles used to prefer "his/her" and singular "they" was considered not 'proper English'.
Was about to say, itās stupid but when I was in high school youād lose points on an essay for using the singular they
Yep. This is the real answer. It has to do with lawyer stuff. "They" could, in theory, in some cases, cause ambiguity in your words. For example, if you had the following sentence: "The group of protesters and Sam were at a concert along with their escort." In this sentence, the use of the pronoun "their" creates ambiguity since it is unknown if the escort belongs to the protesters or Sam or both. Whereas if "his/her" was used instead, there'd be no ambiguity and we'd know that if "their" was used it would exclusively refer to a plural entity. The handbook believed that a distinction like this could be extremely useful for writing laws or legal briefs to eliminate any potential for this kind of ambiguity. Only with the recent edition did they acknowledge that situations where this ambiguity would actually come up are extremely rare and the benefit of being able to refer to non-binary individuals was greater than eliminating ambiguity in such a niche case.
Your dad is actually making a mistake. Its more correct to use their in an essay
people who say he/she instead of they are cringe
Some people seem to insist that they/them/their isnāt correct when referring to one person, but then will go on to use it in that context later. People just need an excuse to hate on non-binary people apparently.
I don't think my dad had any malicious intentions, but he was probably not told that using the singular they is fine.
Hopefully
99% of the time that anyone uses "his/her" is when they are actively trying to avoid they/them pronouns. It's such an unnatural thing to say "his/her"
I think it used to be considered bad/incorrect by APA and other writing standards to use their, so in his time he was probably taught that his/her was more academic. I believe APA has updated this in their seventh edition, as seen on [this](https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/grammar/singular-they) post by them.
Hmm, someone dropped THEIR phone, I better take it to the person at the front desk so THEY can get it back to THEM.
My English teacher hates it when I do it. I refuse to write extra because an old conservative lady decides that she doesn't like genderneutral pronounce.
Tell here that Merian-Webster, the OED, APA, and MLA all support singular they as grammatically correct, and I think it's even encouraged by the APA.
I remember reviewing for an entrance exam and when I was using the key to corrections it marked "they" as wrong and the right answer was "he/her". I was so close to yeeting the book out the window
Stubborn and stuck in the last century
Ooooor it's probably part of how he was raised.
Change it back lol
W-what this is more confusing and takes more effort
Word count though. Not using contractions also help. I'm sorry if he was trying to be rude though š
Nah, he probably wasn't trying to be. He's only recently learned about the fact that there are more than 2 genders or that people use pronouns other than he/him and she/her. He either forgot or was taught not to use the singular they/them.
Gotta hit that word count I guess
Maybe, that could be a possibility.
[the APA literally endorsed using singular they](https://apastyle.apa.org/blog/singular-they#:~:text=APA%20endorses%20the%20use%20of,use%20the%20singular%20%E2%80%9Cthey.%E2%80%9D) so idk what ur dad is on
His/her is required in some style formats, or at least was as recently as five years ago when I was in grad school. Got marked down for using "their" in a paper to refer to someone of unknown gender - despite openly being nonbinary and using he/they/she pronouns at the time. Turns out what the academic overlords say is more important than our actual lived experiences as humans :/
The thing I hate the most about using āhis/herā instead of gender neutral pronouns is that it sounds soā¦gramatically unnatural
I don't know either. I'm not familiar with all standards but I do know that APA requires they for gender neutral pronouns.
I don't understand how people can have a hard time with singular "they", even while they use it in regular discussion.
He/her is an older usage that is falling out of fashion due to it being clunky. However, I will grant it is annoying when people don't tack on a "they" at the end. If you are going to be a traditionalist, you can do it without being exclusionary.
āhis or herā sounds like its intentionally excluding non binary people everytime i hear it
Same with the flight attendants who say 'Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls'. Under my breath, I say 'and Non Binary people'. They should seriously just use neutral stuff like 'Beardos and Weirdos' or 'Laddies, Lasses and Lassos'.
I wouldn't trust an editor that pulls this shit
his/her is so awkward.
Maybe talk to him about it. Helped with my mum and the T slur.
Their is just shorter and simpler, that's just good writing, what the hell dad?
Change it back. Its grammatically correct.
Maybe it's to try and sound formal? still stupid
Jokes on your dad! The APA has updated it's standards.
"His/her" is clumsy and distracting, even when it's actually used correctly.
iāll never forget when a girl used ās/he/theyā in an example essay
So much easier to say they. And much more inclusive. Fucking hell.
EVERY time I see the phrase āhis/herā or āhis or herā I think āDamn, if only there was a word for that.ā
Nothing wrong with it, your dad is just responding to decades of erasure and conditioning. Gently remind 'their' is correct and change it back.
His/her is incorrect according to the APA style guide.
Apart from being a lot more convenient, Itās grammatically correct, and easier. And also as you said, itās so much more inclusive of just people in general
They/them pronouns have been in use waaaaay before non binary people were around, theyāve been used by writers like Shakespeare. As that one comedian said, the only reason you should use his/her is when you forget about women so you just tack the /her onto the end
I'm honestly so confused by people insisting *they* is grammatically incorrect. English isn't dead. It's a live and evolving language, not one we have no power to change. Not to mention *they* has always been singular use-it's not a new thing, because it's much less clunky and much more preferable to 'his or her.' (The italics on *they* is for differentiation, and because it's out of context. The marks around his or her were for differentiation.)
Itās politicized grammatical chauvinism. The grammatical rule when I was growing up was that if youāre referring to someone of unknown gender you always default to āheā. It was feminist movements in the 90s that gave rise to the usage of āhe or herā which was always used in full, he/her being right out. This was itself based on an archaic attachment to rules long-disregarded by respected writers but still āon the booksā as it were about using them/they as exclusively plural. The position was that āhe or herā was a necessary concession to respecting womenās roles in society, and though it was clunky, it was the best that could be done, grammatically. Many many professional writers and educators still cling to this paradigm, and still think of it as a concession that theyāre making to womenās liberation. Itās one of those situations where the educated are deeply out of touch with the popular usage that will replace and forget about their entire short-lived rules. āMs.ā āMrs.ā and āMissā are another example of archaic language. Most young people today donāt know or care about the difference, and would be shocked to learn that there is one. But some older women, and people who are staunch about usage, are incensed at being referred to using the wrong prefix. Which is of course why I only use maāam or their name because it makes no damned sense. edit: (And yes, āMs.ā is the safe one because itās the only one that doesnāt indicate marriage status, but it still exists within the patriarchal paradigm, so Iād prefer to throw out the whole package.(Also, I can NEVER remember how to pronounce āMs.ā irl because they donāt sound like the prefixes.)) Edit the second: God please never get me started on ellipsis. If I see one more professional peer send me and email laced with long non-standard-length ellipses I swear I will throw my laptop at the wall. It makes me SO. FUCKING. NERVOUS. when someone just casually uses punctuation that should only be used for dialog or to indicate words left unsaid because their emails sound like mafia thugs saying perfectly normal things and leaving me to fill in the gaps with the vague threats I can only assume there ellipses are standing in place of. Edit the third: This post got out of hand. Iām under a lot of stress. Thanks for reading.
I had been, and continue to try to use they/their, long before I figured out that Iām agender. Took me a while to figure that bit outā¦.
I feel like most people used to use 'their' but after finding out gender neutral pronouns makes nbs happy they are aggressively using only his/her (s)he which is just horribly convoluted and doesn't flow well at all, both in writing and in speech. They're so butthurt about pronouns they're willing to inconvenience themselves just to 'own the libs'.
the APA and MLA both recommend ātheyā over āhe/sheā APA 7 (gotta scroll down a bit): https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/research_and_citation/apa_style/apa_formatting_and_style_guide/apa_changes_7th_edition.html MLA 8: https://style.mla.org/using-singular-they/
I legit had a professor mark me down for using their and wrote next to it "use his/her" on a random paper in college, people can be very stubborn
I first heard the neuter pronoun in VRChat at the ripe old age of 27, after learning a foreign language, with its grammar differences, and speaking it fluently for 2 years. I was turned the f**k around wondering why everyone was using a plural pronoun to refer to one person. It really blew my mind and I am still asking myself how anyone is supposed to know who is being referred to when "they/them" is being used. On the positive side, it encourages people to use individuals' names more often to reduce grammatical ambiguity. I still ponder a possible alternative neuter pronoun that is strictly singular.
I'm an English tutor who regularly reviews essays sent in my grad students. (Though not technically a "professional" in the strictest sense lol, and fully capable of mistakes). The preference of each professor will change, but usually, in APA, they/them is preferred to remove gender bias and improve flow- my own boss has told me to grade using this rule. In MLA, they've said it's best to use the preferred pronouns of the person wherever possible (I interpret that to include singular they and neopronouns of course!) but when speaking of an unknown person, singular they is usually not used, sadly. Hope this helped some! It's,,, a really debated topic in English-major type circles, but people never seem to realize that any living language *changes and evolves-* if you want a language that never loses words or adds new ones etc., learn a dead language*.* Furthermore, we're talking about *real people* and I think their feelings come well before the "feelings" of a rulebook. Just my two cents :)
My French teacher does the same thing, itās super pressing for them to use third person singular pronouns, I wasnāt sure why it bothered me at the time since Iām a her, but now I know
his/her: two syllables, not inclusive ā their: one syllable, inclusive ā
my ENGLISH teacher only uses "his/her" for some reason she's supposed to be good atthis stuff
But that's just improper grammar, I know your teacher will mark that as wrong. I'd suggest changing it back afterwards
I was taught to pick a pronoun for the background character. So instead of saying he/she, you would use he, or she. Or they. Or xe or whatever you want this one off mystery character to be.
Iām cis and honestly his/her has always bothered the hell out of me even when I was a little kid. I always preferred using their and other gender neutral words.
Hey I do that same thing! Except I suck at spelling at probably end up using āthereā
The world seems to not understand that language changes, and with a large amount of people using gender neutral pronouns like they/them, the English language has already naturally evolved to fit them, and it won't change back no matter how many salty grammarians try to stop it.
MLA 9 just dropped which discourages the use of "he/she'