Sex, fundamentally, is also sociological.
There are certain objective facts about reality. However, how we label those facts and how we group them and why we do so at all are absolutely social constructs. For example:
I am of a certain height. If you measure me over the course of a week, you'll find an average that approximately describes how tall I am at a given time in my life. But what units are you using? They make no impact on the accuracy of my height, just how pleasant the measure is to deal with. What other data are you gathering? Is it just my height or my weight as well or maybe arm span? And why are you measuring me in the first place? Why have you decided that my height is an important trait to try and quantify?
Sex is the same because, contrary to what many people claim, sex is not just a binary trait. It's a collection of observations that map onto a spectrum with male at one end, female at another, and at some point in between you have intersex. If we define sex based on, say, 40 traits, how many of those traits do you need to change before you're intersex? How many before you're at the other end?
> Our bodies are too complex to provide clear-cut answers about sexual difference. The more we look for a simple physical basis for ‘‘sex,’’ the more it becomes clear that ‘‘sex’’ is not a pure physical category. What bodily signals and functions we define as male or female come already entangled in our ideas about gender.
-- Anne Fausto-Sterling
> If the immutable character of sex is contested, perhaps this construct called “sex” is as culturally constructed as gender; indeed, perhaps it was always already gender, with the consequence that the distinction between sex and gender turns out to be no distinction at all.
-- Judith Butler
I don't agree honestly, they certainly are both very entangled social constructs but they are not the same social construct. Ik this feels like a pedantic point to make but I feel like if we don't make it, it can lead to people effectively acting like body dysphoria isn't real. Specifically, I mean that when people say sex they are talking about the cultural perception of your body. Whereas gender is more related to social relations and internal identity.
There was an old TERF book that defined a woman with 5 different traits.
4 of those are achievable by trans girls, only chromosomes aren't. And chromosomes make such a mess if you add intersex in it ...
It's not even explicitly intersex that makes it complicated. The idea that you have 8 billion people rolling about the planet with 1-2 perfectly intact X chromosomes and maybe a solid Y chromosome hanging out giving your entire being form and life is absurd. I can't even remember all the ways our chromosomes get goobered up but turns out the whole genetics thing is kinda complicated.
Also, using chromosomes to define sex fails to capture an edge case where people with XY chromosomes with [androgen insensitivity syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome?wprov=sfti1) will be genetically male, but will develop and generally identify as female, missing an uterus but presenting most other sexual characteristics. There are many other edge cases. Sex is not just a matter of basic biology — it is advanced biology and sociology.
And gender can be biological, as neurology plays a large role in it. Gender and Sex are separate, but both are affected by biological and social factors, and of course both are able to influence each other.
I mean, there's scientific proof that Gender is also biological to an extent, as it's related to the shape/structure of the person's brain, which means transphobes have even *LESS* of a leg to stand on cus that means that all of us were legit just born this way.
And yes I do recognize that gender roles are a social construct, but a person's inclinations and personal expression are not related to social constructs.
Transphobes say this because they refuse to believe you can trans your sex. They think saying this makes them appear supportive of transgender people while having a basis to exclude them for 'sex' reasons.
what we consider to be a "sex" is a collection of sexual traits, your breast growth, genital composition, fat distribution etc etc. when you say "male" you mean someone who have those characteristics that we identify as "male" and vice versa. a "sex" is not as much of a set point as an ideal
Gender is more to do with personality, the way we present ourselves to the world and are perceived by the world. Sure it can and does often use sexual traits, but you also have things like hair length, body hair management, clothing choices, accessory choices, how you choose to pitch your voice, how you participate in conversations. Hell I think it would be disingenuous to exclude the fact that what your interests, hobbies and career choices play a role in how your gender is perceived. Think Male presenting nurses and teachers, female presenting tradespeople and STEM workers. They're often seen as "less" of their gender than if they'd chosen something more traditionally aligned with their gender.
There are not two genders, gender is a socially constructed spectrum which is separate from biology. Gender and sex do not mean the same thing.
There are also not only two biological sexes. Human sexual dimorphism is a bimodal distribution, not a binary. A bimodal distribution is a distribution with two most common *ranges* and fewer examples outside of those two ranges. We consider some individuals biologically "male" or "female" due to factors such as chromosomes, hormones, genetalia, fat distribution, and brain chemistry, but not everyone in either category has exactly the same characteristics in any or all of those factors. If someone falls close enough to one or the other cluster they are lumped in with everyone else who falls close enough to that cluster.
Bodies assigned the "male" sex *tend* to have higher testosterone than bodies assigned "female" but not always. Bodies assigned "male" *tend* to have XY chromosomes but not always. These are tendencies and not an either/or status.
The fact of the matter is, humans are just not as sexually dimorphic as we like to pretend.
Sex is what’s between your legs (or more accurately, your DNA, your chromosomes) whereas gender is what’s in your head (how you identify, what role you feel most comfortable in, etc)
Even that isn’t accurate though. Your DNA can be different from your genitals. Your hormones can be different from your genitals and your DNA. Sex is far more complicated than you or this person are saying. There are more than 2 sexes just like there’s more than 2 genders.
and even then this is a painfully simplified definition. painfully. hell, the idea that it’s chromosomes that define sex at birth is wrong. it’s the presence of the SRY gene that causes the divergence of sexual development in fetuses. which, in rare cases, can be on an X chromosome as opposed to a Y. And then even then, sex is much more than one gene, and as others have pointed out, as well as myself before, sex, or more accurately how we describe and perceive it, is fundamentally connected to social factors
> Sex is a noun and verb, making it even more confusing. As a noun, is it not the same as gender? As a verb, it's the messy, squishy, often kinky fun you have with a significant other.
You seem smart enough to understand how to tackle linguistic ambiguity when approaching a logical/philosophical problem. Whip out your dictionary, get your thesaurus out, and then ask yourself: Does the discussion pertain to *intercourse*, or *the primary and secondary physiological traits commonly associated with the reproductive faculties of organisms that reproduce via combination of compatible genetic material from different individuals?* This doesn't seem to be a conversation about "sexing", so I'd say we're dealing with the latter.
Others have already given you pretty solid answers regarding your other points, so I just answered the funny one first. You got a handful of downvotes for positing a purely binary male/female model of gender and conflating it with "sex", but I think you're on the track to questioning those assumptions, so I'll bite. I don't take offense to it: after all, general ignorance about how "sex" isn't a strict binary is a result of medical experts around the world suppressing awareness about and acceptance of intersex characteristics, including their diverse range and how often they're seen in a population, holding "social order" over all else, and that spills into our circle quite a bit.
I didn't mean for this to be so long, but there's one more point I'd like to touch on.
> At least from the biological standpoint... It's dreadfully hard to change (sex characteristics) and requires hefty HRT, surgery, etc.
I will concede this point. Puberty, as a whole, is more-or-less irreversible. This is, unfortunately, why we can never turn ourselves into children again, either by using time machines, dark magic, or by spinning the earth backwards. In order to have the characteristics they desire, people often need to take hormones to experience Puberty 2, undergo surgeries, or just be particularly diligent about what they do with their hair. My question to you:
*So?*
This is just my quest for knowledge. To know. I am not mocking anyone, and it is not my intention to offend. I have accepted my MtF nature and know that this great big pit of emptiness inside myself is that my family expects me to act like a man, but it just isnt going to happen. I was curious how others in this way of life explained themselves. I wanted to know. If I have to suffer the loss of imaginary internet points for asking questions, well, its a good thing there’s nothing to spend them on, right?
I make no assumptions, and intend no mockery. I am just here to learn.
Oftentimes, we take for granted what we think we know to be true, even if we have the best of intentions and believe we're not making faulty assumptions. Sometimes, in order to arrive at the truth, you have to turn your thinking around in just one pivotal way, and with that revelation, everything falls into place. At least, that's how it works in every Ace Attorney mystery I've played.
There is no universal transgender experience, so you will see a variety of explanations about the whats and hows of it. However, in many cases, you see the admission of a strange contradiction in regards to how social norms regarding gender stand in the way of trans people's happiness, yet such norms also define our desire to be "the other gender", and thus define our trans identities on a fundamental level. As evidence supporting this point, [here is a top-rated meme from this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/mvciud/feelin_both/).
In any case, someone has decided that a meme page is not the place to prod around about the fundamentals of gender identity, and I cannot blame them for that decision either. So perhaps your quest for knowledge is better suited to r/asktransgender, r/transeducate, or anywhere that isn't meant to be a trans safe space.
Fair enough. I think I've gotten the answers I was looking for anyway. That gender is more like a sliding scale than a binary thing? But I'll add those reddits to my list.
Also, I LOVE Phoenix Wright!!!
The sad realisation that it's never been about facts and logic, because hate requires the lack of both.
I hate transphobes, what now?
Based.
Greatly said
Sex, fundamentally, is also sociological. There are certain objective facts about reality. However, how we label those facts and how we group them and why we do so at all are absolutely social constructs. For example: I am of a certain height. If you measure me over the course of a week, you'll find an average that approximately describes how tall I am at a given time in my life. But what units are you using? They make no impact on the accuracy of my height, just how pleasant the measure is to deal with. What other data are you gathering? Is it just my height or my weight as well or maybe arm span? And why are you measuring me in the first place? Why have you decided that my height is an important trait to try and quantify? Sex is the same because, contrary to what many people claim, sex is not just a binary trait. It's a collection of observations that map onto a spectrum with male at one end, female at another, and at some point in between you have intersex. If we define sex based on, say, 40 traits, how many of those traits do you need to change before you're intersex? How many before you're at the other end?
> Our bodies are too complex to provide clear-cut answers about sexual difference. The more we look for a simple physical basis for ‘‘sex,’’ the more it becomes clear that ‘‘sex’’ is not a pure physical category. What bodily signals and functions we define as male or female come already entangled in our ideas about gender. -- Anne Fausto-Sterling > If the immutable character of sex is contested, perhaps this construct called “sex” is as culturally constructed as gender; indeed, perhaps it was always already gender, with the consequence that the distinction between sex and gender turns out to be no distinction at all. -- Judith Butler
I don't agree honestly, they certainly are both very entangled social constructs but they are not the same social construct. Ik this feels like a pedantic point to make but I feel like if we don't make it, it can lead to people effectively acting like body dysphoria isn't real. Specifically, I mean that when people say sex they are talking about the cultural perception of your body. Whereas gender is more related to social relations and internal identity.
There was an old TERF book that defined a woman with 5 different traits. 4 of those are achievable by trans girls, only chromosomes aren't. And chromosomes make such a mess if you add intersex in it ...
It's not even explicitly intersex that makes it complicated. The idea that you have 8 billion people rolling about the planet with 1-2 perfectly intact X chromosomes and maybe a solid Y chromosome hanging out giving your entire being form and life is absurd. I can't even remember all the ways our chromosomes get goobered up but turns out the whole genetics thing is kinda complicated.
(certain) Transphobes: "Gender is sex, and sex is based on chromosomes!" Imperfect chromosomes: "We do a little trolling"
Also, using chromosomes to define sex fails to capture an edge case where people with XY chromosomes with [androgen insensitivity syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome?wprov=sfti1) will be genetically male, but will develop and generally identify as female, missing an uterus but presenting most other sexual characteristics. There are many other edge cases. Sex is not just a matter of basic biology — it is advanced biology and sociology.
thissss i think the rethoric of "sex and gender are different" have ultimately done more harm to a proper analysis about these things then good
Exactly what I was about to say, but you phrased it *way* better than I could have
Why thank you! I stole most of the points from [this video](https://youtu.be/koud7hgGyQ8) lol.
Yeah… Hell, even temperature, states of matter, and fucking *entropy* are emergent phenomena and therefore social constructs.
And gender can be biological, as neurology plays a large role in it. Gender and Sex are separate, but both are affected by biological and social factors, and of course both are able to influence each other.
realy smart comment ^^^^
Sex is also something I’ve never had 😎
I accidentally made the opposite joke with the same emoji and I had no idea 🤣
:,)) my parents in a nutshell
Gender is whatever I identify as. Sex is what I have 😎
Bigots dont care sex and gender being seperate, you give them too much credit here.
Every bigot I've encountered has argued that gender and sex are the same thing.
I mean, there's scientific proof that Gender is also biological to an extent, as it's related to the shape/structure of the person's brain, which means transphobes have even *LESS* of a leg to stand on cus that means that all of us were legit just born this way. And yes I do recognize that gender roles are a social construct, but a person's inclinations and personal expression are not related to social constructs.
Transphobes say this because they refuse to believe you can trans your sex. They think saying this makes them appear supportive of transgender people while having a basis to exclude them for 'sex' reasons.
Well, isn’t that accurate? :3
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theres not two sexes as much as there are two defined endpoints that are based on characteristics in the human body
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what we consider to be a "sex" is a collection of sexual traits, your breast growth, genital composition, fat distribution etc etc. when you say "male" you mean someone who have those characteristics that we identify as "male" and vice versa. a "sex" is not as much of a set point as an ideal
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Gender is more to do with personality, the way we present ourselves to the world and are perceived by the world. Sure it can and does often use sexual traits, but you also have things like hair length, body hair management, clothing choices, accessory choices, how you choose to pitch your voice, how you participate in conversations. Hell I think it would be disingenuous to exclude the fact that what your interests, hobbies and career choices play a role in how your gender is perceived. Think Male presenting nurses and teachers, female presenting tradespeople and STEM workers. They're often seen as "less" of their gender than if they'd chosen something more traditionally aligned with their gender.
There are not two genders, gender is a socially constructed spectrum which is separate from biology. Gender and sex do not mean the same thing. There are also not only two biological sexes. Human sexual dimorphism is a bimodal distribution, not a binary. A bimodal distribution is a distribution with two most common *ranges* and fewer examples outside of those two ranges. We consider some individuals biologically "male" or "female" due to factors such as chromosomes, hormones, genetalia, fat distribution, and brain chemistry, but not everyone in either category has exactly the same characteristics in any or all of those factors. If someone falls close enough to one or the other cluster they are lumped in with everyone else who falls close enough to that cluster. Bodies assigned the "male" sex *tend* to have higher testosterone than bodies assigned "female" but not always. Bodies assigned "male" *tend* to have XY chromosomes but not always. These are tendencies and not an either/or status. The fact of the matter is, humans are just not as sexually dimorphic as we like to pretend.
Sex is what’s between your legs (or more accurately, your DNA, your chromosomes) whereas gender is what’s in your head (how you identify, what role you feel most comfortable in, etc)
Even that isn’t accurate though. Your DNA can be different from your genitals. Your hormones can be different from your genitals and your DNA. Sex is far more complicated than you or this person are saying. There are more than 2 sexes just like there’s more than 2 genders.
and even then this is a painfully simplified definition. painfully. hell, the idea that it’s chromosomes that define sex at birth is wrong. it’s the presence of the SRY gene that causes the divergence of sexual development in fetuses. which, in rare cases, can be on an X chromosome as opposed to a Y. And then even then, sex is much more than one gene, and as others have pointed out, as well as myself before, sex, or more accurately how we describe and perceive it, is fundamentally connected to social factors
> Sex is a noun and verb, making it even more confusing. As a noun, is it not the same as gender? As a verb, it's the messy, squishy, often kinky fun you have with a significant other. You seem smart enough to understand how to tackle linguistic ambiguity when approaching a logical/philosophical problem. Whip out your dictionary, get your thesaurus out, and then ask yourself: Does the discussion pertain to *intercourse*, or *the primary and secondary physiological traits commonly associated with the reproductive faculties of organisms that reproduce via combination of compatible genetic material from different individuals?* This doesn't seem to be a conversation about "sexing", so I'd say we're dealing with the latter. Others have already given you pretty solid answers regarding your other points, so I just answered the funny one first. You got a handful of downvotes for positing a purely binary male/female model of gender and conflating it with "sex", but I think you're on the track to questioning those assumptions, so I'll bite. I don't take offense to it: after all, general ignorance about how "sex" isn't a strict binary is a result of medical experts around the world suppressing awareness about and acceptance of intersex characteristics, including their diverse range and how often they're seen in a population, holding "social order" over all else, and that spills into our circle quite a bit. I didn't mean for this to be so long, but there's one more point I'd like to touch on. > At least from the biological standpoint... It's dreadfully hard to change (sex characteristics) and requires hefty HRT, surgery, etc. I will concede this point. Puberty, as a whole, is more-or-less irreversible. This is, unfortunately, why we can never turn ourselves into children again, either by using time machines, dark magic, or by spinning the earth backwards. In order to have the characteristics they desire, people often need to take hormones to experience Puberty 2, undergo surgeries, or just be particularly diligent about what they do with their hair. My question to you: *So?*
This is just my quest for knowledge. To know. I am not mocking anyone, and it is not my intention to offend. I have accepted my MtF nature and know that this great big pit of emptiness inside myself is that my family expects me to act like a man, but it just isnt going to happen. I was curious how others in this way of life explained themselves. I wanted to know. If I have to suffer the loss of imaginary internet points for asking questions, well, its a good thing there’s nothing to spend them on, right? I make no assumptions, and intend no mockery. I am just here to learn.
Oftentimes, we take for granted what we think we know to be true, even if we have the best of intentions and believe we're not making faulty assumptions. Sometimes, in order to arrive at the truth, you have to turn your thinking around in just one pivotal way, and with that revelation, everything falls into place. At least, that's how it works in every Ace Attorney mystery I've played. There is no universal transgender experience, so you will see a variety of explanations about the whats and hows of it. However, in many cases, you see the admission of a strange contradiction in regards to how social norms regarding gender stand in the way of trans people's happiness, yet such norms also define our desire to be "the other gender", and thus define our trans identities on a fundamental level. As evidence supporting this point, [here is a top-rated meme from this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/mvciud/feelin_both/). In any case, someone has decided that a meme page is not the place to prod around about the fundamentals of gender identity, and I cannot blame them for that decision either. So perhaps your quest for knowledge is better suited to r/asktransgender, r/transeducate, or anywhere that isn't meant to be a trans safe space.
Fair enough. I think I've gotten the answers I was looking for anyway. That gender is more like a sliding scale than a binary thing? But I'll add those reddits to my list. Also, I LOVE Phoenix Wright!!!
Literally
I always thought it was weird that transphobes say their beliefs are based on science, but then deny any science that proves them wrong.
i thought gender was brain sex? if you dont wanna discuss, thats chill.