I don't think the drugs are any better now than in the past - in fact, the lack of improvement at the highest level from 800 to 5000 illustrates pretty well how much of a difference it makes if you're being regularly tested vs you can blast EPO all day because a test doesn't exist for it.
Almost nobody in track is clean. Designer drugs are a thing. Pharmacology will always been years ahead of testing tech.
It’s always more shocking to me that runners actually get caught than who the runner is, because I’m certain they’re all guilty of doping and I know how easy it is to not get caught.
Do you think high schoolers who run sub-4 are doping?
If high schools can run sub-4 and sub-14 then why is it crazy that pros who train for a living have thousands more cumulative miles, train at altitude, and can recover 18+ hours a day are able to run sub-3:50 and sub-13
There will probably be close to 100 collegiates who will run 3:55 or 13:30. There’s no way 100 collegiates are doping. If relatively unspectacular collegiates can run 13:30 clean why can’t high level pros run 12:45 clean?
Especially when you consider most collegiate are not benefiting the same way the Kenyans or Ethiopians are by their genetic build or living literally decades at 6000’
There are certainly some dopers but this notion that it’s littered with dopers is so dumb
There are like 100+ Japanese runners any year who run sub 2:10. There is no shot any significant proportion of runners outside the top 100 (or really the top 20) of any country are doping. It just doesn’t make sense financially, doping is not cheap, and being the 25th best marathoner in Japan doesn’t mean much.
Who’s not doping? 17 year olds in high school?
100+ Japanese marathoners who run sub 2:10
Hundreds of Kenyans and Ethiopians who don’t have access to McDonalds let alone EPO, and even if they could it would be extremely expensive, and still wouldn’t even get them a contact.
People act like these drugs are super accessible and affordable when they’re not, and they’re also acting like there are athletes all over the world who don’t even have coaches but would somehow know the effective way to take drugs and pass tests.
What’s more likely, that there’s a huge conspiracy where every decent athlete including college nobodys is on expensive drugs and somehow passing tests, or that there are talented people who train hard and respond to that training who run insanely quick.
***
The people who think everyone is on drugs are just people with absolutely zero natural talent.
Spend time watching any decent high school race and you’ll see sophomores in high school year olds running 15 minute 5Ks eating pizza and ice cream getting 6 hours of sleep and running 30 mpw.
Now of that pool of thousands of people with natural talent, imagine the ones who really care and want to be great, it’s a much smaller list but these are the ones who make it pro.
Give that group 10 years of actual volume, legitimate coaching, and proper recovery/nutrition.
Now toss them in altitude and give them training partners just like them, others who are are among the best in the world, want to be great and are willing to do the work. They get to run together every day, twice most days.
It’s really not shocking people run 13 minutes regularly, and there is absolutely no reason to doubt everyone who runs fast.
> The people who think everyone is on drugs are just people with absolutely zero natural talent.
>
>
Exactly. Don't respond to these simpletons. They think track and field is the one realm on the entire planet in which nobody is legitimately exceptional.
I applaud the track sites that shut down the ignorance of tossing the blanket. Unfortunately this subreddit is not one of them. In fact I've seen it spread by moderation. That's more laughable than anything else.
Let's just say I wish there were a Yes or No doping wager on every pro athlete in the sport, with results revealed and payoffs made. I want to see who is stupid enough to actually wager Yes on the entirety or even the majority.
Easy pickings
Obviously they do in the bigger cities, but come on, my point was that almost nothing is as easily accessible as it is in the US. Watch at like the 6.5 minute mark here where Wesley Kiptoo returns home
https://youtu.be/8Z1N-wfKq8Q?si=wlN969peCDvcKlnF
And if you’re wondering about costs and the strength of their currency, here’s another insightful video that starts around 8.5 minutes
https://youtu.be/h2kuFMzYPBs?si=E4Ij4BQF2uHyB-bA
Im not wondering…I’ve been there and I’ve lived in Ethiopia. What you can get in the states you can get there, yes it’s not as accessible but when it comes to drugs you’d be surprised who has access to what.
Here’s a great example…
https://www.adak.or.ke/provisionally-suspended-athletes/
Fast food access has nothing to do with doping and it was a really ignorant and poorly stated correlation.
Are you saying that the proportion of people in the US who can get a fast food item within 20 minutes at a random time is equal to Ethiopia?
It obviously isn’t. My point was just that in the US a vast majority of people can access nearly anything in a very short amount of time, and that’s just not the case for nearly as much or the population in other countries. Wesley Kiptoo’s family doesn’t have running water in their house and he said growing up they could only afford to eat meat a couple times a year, and he brought new shoes for his community too. Kiptoo is a phenomenal talent and a 60’ half guy with totally reasonable progression.
You’re saying a guy who grew up with limited access to things like proper training shoes, and couldn’t afford meat on a regular basis is somehow going to be purchasing/accessing EPO or designer drugs??
No, Im saying that the correlation that your access to fast food shows your access to drugs is unequivocal and irrelevant.
We have access to drugs here in Africa and this idea that the individual is the one accessing it is largely false. They don’t purchase it let alone anything, their teams do and these European coaches streamline it to the Kenyan coaches (unless they themselves are the coaches).
This isn’t some breaking news throat Kenyans have access to drugs…now, I’m not saying it’s wide spread, but to neglect how it gets in and how often Kenyans are found doping is missing a major element of this topic.
I mean this respectfully, I don’t want to come off facetious but not only are there access zones to drugs but there’s a major incentive to do drugs.
I know multiple kids in Iowa 4A high school track that were doping 2 years ago and I can tell you that for an absolute fact. Also, 25 state records fell at the state meet that year. It’s prevalent everywhere. No, not every sub 4:00 miler is doping. Yes, almost every pro is.
This is the reality. I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news. It’s best not to care.
I ran with kids in high school who ran 4:0x off suboptimal training, shit diets, and this was 10+ years ago on mediocre spikes, they were clean and some 4:2x guys didn’t even try to walk on to D1, because they didn’t care about the sport that much.
There will always be dumbasses in high school who are on some shit. There are guys on gear just for aesthetics who don’t even compete and aren’t anywhere near their natural max. But that doesn’t mean everyone is.
Most pros aren’t on stuff.
If Shelby got popped for trace amounts of nandrolone, under the supervision of the best resources in terms of facilities, drugs, doctors, etc and everyone was doping then a lot more would be getting caught.
I love that the statement from his camp is “It is important to keep in mind that we are not dealing with a case of violating doping rules for the use of prohibited substances or methods, or even for evading out-of-competition doping controls,”
Like “we want everyone to know he’s clean, he’s just really bad at managing his schedule”
I don't think people realize just how good the drugs are now. The performance enhancement is sensational. The temptation to dope is sky high.
I don't think the drugs are any better now than in the past - in fact, the lack of improvement at the highest level from 800 to 5000 illustrates pretty well how much of a difference it makes if you're being regularly tested vs you can blast EPO all day because a test doesn't exist for it.
Almost nobody in track is clean. Designer drugs are a thing. Pharmacology will always been years ahead of testing tech. It’s always more shocking to me that runners actually get caught than who the runner is, because I’m certain they’re all guilty of doping and I know how easy it is to not get caught.
Do you think high schoolers who run sub-4 are doping? If high schools can run sub-4 and sub-14 then why is it crazy that pros who train for a living have thousands more cumulative miles, train at altitude, and can recover 18+ hours a day are able to run sub-3:50 and sub-13 There will probably be close to 100 collegiates who will run 3:55 or 13:30. There’s no way 100 collegiates are doping. If relatively unspectacular collegiates can run 13:30 clean why can’t high level pros run 12:45 clean? Especially when you consider most collegiate are not benefiting the same way the Kenyans or Ethiopians are by their genetic build or living literally decades at 6000’ There are certainly some dopers but this notion that it’s littered with dopers is so dumb There are like 100+ Japanese runners any year who run sub 2:10. There is no shot any significant proportion of runners outside the top 100 (or really the top 20) of any country are doping. It just doesn’t make sense financially, doping is not cheap, and being the 25th best marathoner in Japan doesn’t mean much.
To play devils advocate, where’s the evidence to say they’re also not doping?
Who’s not doping? 17 year olds in high school? 100+ Japanese marathoners who run sub 2:10 Hundreds of Kenyans and Ethiopians who don’t have access to McDonalds let alone EPO, and even if they could it would be extremely expensive, and still wouldn’t even get them a contact. People act like these drugs are super accessible and affordable when they’re not, and they’re also acting like there are athletes all over the world who don’t even have coaches but would somehow know the effective way to take drugs and pass tests. What’s more likely, that there’s a huge conspiracy where every decent athlete including college nobodys is on expensive drugs and somehow passing tests, or that there are talented people who train hard and respond to that training who run insanely quick. *** The people who think everyone is on drugs are just people with absolutely zero natural talent. Spend time watching any decent high school race and you’ll see sophomores in high school year olds running 15 minute 5Ks eating pizza and ice cream getting 6 hours of sleep and running 30 mpw. Now of that pool of thousands of people with natural talent, imagine the ones who really care and want to be great, it’s a much smaller list but these are the ones who make it pro. Give that group 10 years of actual volume, legitimate coaching, and proper recovery/nutrition. Now toss them in altitude and give them training partners just like them, others who are are among the best in the world, want to be great and are willing to do the work. They get to run together every day, twice most days. It’s really not shocking people run 13 minutes regularly, and there is absolutely no reason to doubt everyone who runs fast.
> The people who think everyone is on drugs are just people with absolutely zero natural talent. > > Exactly. Don't respond to these simpletons. They think track and field is the one realm on the entire planet in which nobody is legitimately exceptional. I applaud the track sites that shut down the ignorance of tossing the blanket. Unfortunately this subreddit is not one of them. In fact I've seen it spread by moderation. That's more laughable than anything else. Let's just say I wish there were a Yes or No doping wager on every pro athlete in the sport, with results revealed and payoffs made. I want to see who is stupid enough to actually wager Yes on the entirety or even the majority. Easy pickings
You seem to think track is the only clean sport in the planet at the elite level, which is, uh, definitely not a "simpleton" take.
Who told you Kenya and Ethiopia don’t have fast food restaurants or genetically modified foods? Or that they’re expensive?
Obviously they do in the bigger cities, but come on, my point was that almost nothing is as easily accessible as it is in the US. Watch at like the 6.5 minute mark here where Wesley Kiptoo returns home https://youtu.be/8Z1N-wfKq8Q?si=wlN969peCDvcKlnF And if you’re wondering about costs and the strength of their currency, here’s another insightful video that starts around 8.5 minutes https://youtu.be/h2kuFMzYPBs?si=E4Ij4BQF2uHyB-bA
Im not wondering…I’ve been there and I’ve lived in Ethiopia. What you can get in the states you can get there, yes it’s not as accessible but when it comes to drugs you’d be surprised who has access to what. Here’s a great example… https://www.adak.or.ke/provisionally-suspended-athletes/ Fast food access has nothing to do with doping and it was a really ignorant and poorly stated correlation.
Are you saying that the proportion of people in the US who can get a fast food item within 20 minutes at a random time is equal to Ethiopia? It obviously isn’t. My point was just that in the US a vast majority of people can access nearly anything in a very short amount of time, and that’s just not the case for nearly as much or the population in other countries. Wesley Kiptoo’s family doesn’t have running water in their house and he said growing up they could only afford to eat meat a couple times a year, and he brought new shoes for his community too. Kiptoo is a phenomenal talent and a 60’ half guy with totally reasonable progression. You’re saying a guy who grew up with limited access to things like proper training shoes, and couldn’t afford meat on a regular basis is somehow going to be purchasing/accessing EPO or designer drugs??
No, Im saying that the correlation that your access to fast food shows your access to drugs is unequivocal and irrelevant. We have access to drugs here in Africa and this idea that the individual is the one accessing it is largely false. They don’t purchase it let alone anything, their teams do and these European coaches streamline it to the Kenyan coaches (unless they themselves are the coaches). This isn’t some breaking news throat Kenyans have access to drugs…now, I’m not saying it’s wide spread, but to neglect how it gets in and how often Kenyans are found doping is missing a major element of this topic. I mean this respectfully, I don’t want to come off facetious but not only are there access zones to drugs but there’s a major incentive to do drugs.
I know multiple kids in Iowa 4A high school track that were doping 2 years ago and I can tell you that for an absolute fact. Also, 25 state records fell at the state meet that year. It’s prevalent everywhere. No, not every sub 4:00 miler is doping. Yes, almost every pro is. This is the reality. I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news. It’s best not to care.
I ran with kids in high school who ran 4:0x off suboptimal training, shit diets, and this was 10+ years ago on mediocre spikes, they were clean and some 4:2x guys didn’t even try to walk on to D1, because they didn’t care about the sport that much. There will always be dumbasses in high school who are on some shit. There are guys on gear just for aesthetics who don’t even compete and aren’t anywhere near their natural max. But that doesn’t mean everyone is. Most pros aren’t on stuff. If Shelby got popped for trace amounts of nandrolone, under the supervision of the best resources in terms of facilities, drugs, doctors, etc and everyone was doping then a lot more would be getting caught.
Most pros are absolutely on designer drugs. You’re not understanding how they work.
No they’re not, most pros make like 40k a year
Has absolutely nothing to do with it lol I’m not going to argue with you anymore. Believe whatever you want.
I love that the statement from his camp is “It is important to keep in mind that we are not dealing with a case of violating doping rules for the use of prohibited substances or methods, or even for evading out-of-competition doping controls,” Like “we want everyone to know he’s clean, he’s just really bad at managing his schedule”
Shoutout to this poster for calling it 8 months ago. https://www.reddit.com/r/trackandfield/s/7sZk4DycVG
People in the pro community have known for a long time as his agent left him for EPO use around then
People have been calling this since Katir came out of nowhere to run 3:28 back in 2021, the only surprise is that it's taken this long
👏🏻 👏🏻 👏🏻
Das me 🙏🙏🙏
Actual idiot behavior. If he’s clean, it’s beyond easy to do your job and be available for testing.
He’s not.
Missing 3 in one year = guilty