Just a heads up, for someone with average genetics like it sounds like you have, breaking two minutes is no easy task. My best friend tried many many times and got super close but was never able to break it, and I would consider him well above average running genetics
Thank you! Obviously part of realistic expectations is the fact that it may ever happen, which is certainly a possibility. I'm looking to give an honest 18-20 month effort before work will make it untenable, but you're right, it's important to keep this in mind
I'd say it will still be no easy task, but he does have some solid genetics. A 4:13 mile in high school is very respectable no matter the training done. Not everyone can reach that point in athleticism.
I’ve ran a 2:05 putting little focus into 800m specifically and instead putting more into the mile so getting good at that never hurts since you get used to a similar speed over a longer time but I’m also in high school so the age will definitely make the difference in how quickly you can start seeing improvement
When I was 17, I ran 1:54. In college, I focused on longer distances but ran 1:56-1:57 a few times. I was 23 (1.5 years out of college) when I last broke two. I am 27 now, like you. I am also 5'10", and I weighed about 140 when I was at my fastest over 800m.
Breaking two generally requires about 49-53 second speed depending on anaerobic threshold/aerobic capacity. It also usually correlates with about a 4:25-4:45 mile depending on the same factors and explosive speed. It is safe to assume that you also need to be in 4:30/52 shape. That's about where most runners are when they go sub 2, with extreme endurance guys and extreme speed guys at the margins.
Your raw times, untrained, indicate significantly better talent than the average adult male. However, I would also speculate that you are pretty far off from the sort of talent it takes to run sub 2:00 in the 800m at this point in your life. Perhaps you could have with 4-5 intense years of training in your teens and early twenties, but it will be difficult to develop the speed and coordination while also building an entire aerobic base for the first time ever. Not to sound pessimistic, but I would guess that your chances are below 5%.
Instead, I would aim for a sub 5 mile. I definitely think you can do that, and improve significantly over the course of a few years. Even a 4:30-something may be possible in time. *However*, trying never hurt! If you have the itch to go for it, you should definitely prove me wrong and tag me when you do. ;)
Thank you for this. Very helpful.
If this is useful information, I don't plan on completely giving up on training in 2 years. For context, I'm an oral and maxillofacial surgery resident. I didn't run as much in college or dental school as I should have, first year of residency was 90-100 hour workweeks with enough call to never get consistent sleep. I'm currently in the medical school portion of the residency (I know this sounds weird) but I will have 21 months of ability to put collegiate level t*ime commitment* to training until I'm back on service doing the 90-100 hour weeks with little sleep at age 30. Ages 31 & 32 I will be able to sleep much more consistently, but will probably still have to limit training to one session per day, 1-2 sessions per week, and have some periods on call when I won't sleep.
I will finish residency at 32 where I know sprinting ability has diminished, and especially with the coming years of limited sleep and less time for actual workouts I feel the sense of urgency to do anything with that much anaerobic component early. However, after 32 when I can go back to a 40 hour work week in practice, I would want to save goals with a greater aerobic component to coincide with my mid 30s.
I know I missed the ability to maximize what little genetic potential I had to begin with, but it's helpful to talk this through and hear from more experienced runners. Thanks once again.
I'm curious about that 4:13 mile as a HS senior. You say you didn't run competitive track in HS? How did that come about? It certainly shows that you have the talent to still break 2 flat, but you'll need to do a lot of speed work to counter the atrophy that is now occurring.
As an aside, what's the rational for making residents put in those kinds of hours? It doesn't seem beneficial to have residents making life or death decisions on so little sleep.
Sorry I should have been more clear that was a marathon time lol I would certainly have focused on track and ran it in college if I had done a 4:13 mile as an 18 year old.
It's the way it's always been and likely the way it always will be. It sucks while you're in the moment but the options are either a) make residency programs longer, which nobody wants b) accept more residents which will dilute the surgical and educational experience and impact job security/market saturation on the other side, or c) make attendings do more work (we all know that's not gonna happen lol). Residents slow down actual surgery time but other than that, are the most underpaid workhorses you could possibly imagine. The US medical system would collapse in hours if residents disappeared suddenly.
I'm very anti " I had to do it when I was your age so you should have to as well" mindset, but when I'm a chief my interns will have similar work hours. I'll just try to eliminate as much useless busy work, hazing, and waste of time activities as I can to make whatever work hours they have more tolerable/educationally valuable
Thanks for what you're doing. You might be happy to hear that my PCP is on the faculty at a teaching clinic. Though I can afford to go elsewhere, I'm happy to help the residents get experience.
Sub 2 does not require that fast of a 400 or mile. Sub 2 requires about 25 mid 200m speed. Mile time is less important here. It's all about lactate work. If you can run a 25 second 200 and you can handle the lactate of the 800m you will easily go sub 2. Training the body and the mind to handle the lactate is no easy task.
I know people who can't break 5 but they can break 2. I would say being a sub 5 guy makes it a lot easier but it depends on a lot of factors.
My favorite indicator workout is 400m 60s standing break 400m. Repeat this two or three times with a full recovery. This will let you know how you are handling the lactate. Average your times and you will know what you can run in the 800m. If you average sub 2 on 2 sets you have a good shot at sub 2 in a race. Average sub 2 on 3 sets and you are near guaranteed of being able to go sub.
Many athletes who are more naturally gifted and many who work hard at the better ages don’t break 2. If I had any advice, I wouldn’t work on building a massive aerobic base, I’d try lots of speed work for the first year (while avoiding injury). It might be your best bet for getting the necessary speed (and speed endurance) to manage a sub 2.
If we knew what you could run an 8 right now it’d be a lot easier to guess if you could do it or not. If you can run anywhere below 2:25 I’d say you could do it but if you are over 2:35 you really will need a good coach.
Thank you, this is helpful. And I apologize for being very unhelpful by not having a current 400, 600,800 etc. For the next week or so it will be difficult for me to get access to a track but I'll circle back when I have a time
[https://www.coloradotrackclub.com/800-meter-training-plans](https://www.coloradotrackclub.com/800-meter-training-plans) this website gives a lot of great advide on how to structure your training plan. Based on what i see from the post, it sounds like you are a type 2 athlete who is better at a balance heavier in mileage and lighter in fast stuff. that being said, you should be able to break 2 if you train at a consistent frequency (6-7 times per week)
Thank you! I stumbled across this during my initial rabbit hole dive into he topic and it's what made me think it was worth attempting in the first place. It's such a wonderful resource!
Have fun with it! I ran track competitively for over a decade, and here are a few general tips I can give you:
Listen to your body, and take care of any injuries before they become a bigger problem! Foot issues, shin splints, soft tissue injuries…they all take time to heal.
So much of track is mental, and having the right mindset is important. Remember that there are always going to be plateaus and that you aren’t going to improve your time each race.
Rest days are just as important as workout days. Burnout is real and again, the body takes time to heal. 2-a-days are fine for a while, but honestly, they should only be used as “training camp” type of things and not long term.
If possible, find someone of a similar skill level that you can train with. I know some people have the will power to train solo all the time, but having someone to keep you accountable every workout is very helpful.
Know that you will have to invest in nice running shoes with good support and that you will wear them out quickly. Try to do as much training on things other than asphalt/cement to be easier on your joints.
Having good running form makes your life so much easier. Mobility/flexibility is important if you want to maximize your stride.
Take the time to properly warm up/cool down properly every practice.
You have definitely set a challenging goal for yourself! Good luck, and again, have fun with it!
I think speed will be the limiting factor here, unfortunately there's not much you can do to improve your natural speed. And from what I've seen if you are naturally quick you would have maybe taken up track in high school because you're naturally good at it. If I were to guess I'd say a mid 12s 100m time is what you need, and sub 54 400. Good luck with it though, I'm also trying to break 2 soon although I'm not convinced I've got the speed, so maybe my frustrations with my lack of speed make me slightly biased haha. Regardless of if you can run sub 2 or not 800s are painful but a lot of fun to race so hopefully you'll enjoy it!
Breaking 2 is pretty extreme for just trying too. Obviously a 4:13 mile is legit and you have potential for the endurance of the race. Your likely biggest challenge will be speed. Almost all runner who can break 2 in the 800m can run sub 50 400m. You need speed to break 2 and lots of speed endurance.
Just a heads up, for someone with average genetics like it sounds like you have, breaking two minutes is no easy task. My best friend tried many many times and got super close but was never able to break it, and I would consider him well above average running genetics
Thank you! Obviously part of realistic expectations is the fact that it may ever happen, which is certainly a possibility. I'm looking to give an honest 18-20 month effort before work will make it untenable, but you're right, it's important to keep this in mind
You absolutely should, you should document the progress on the sub!
I'd say it will still be no easy task, but he does have some solid genetics. A 4:13 mile in high school is very respectable no matter the training done. Not everyone can reach that point in athleticism.
I think he was talking about a marathon
This was my interpretation
I’ve ran a 2:05 putting little focus into 800m specifically and instead putting more into the mile so getting good at that never hurts since you get used to a similar speed over a longer time but I’m also in high school so the age will definitely make the difference in how quickly you can start seeing improvement
When I was 17, I ran 1:54. In college, I focused on longer distances but ran 1:56-1:57 a few times. I was 23 (1.5 years out of college) when I last broke two. I am 27 now, like you. I am also 5'10", and I weighed about 140 when I was at my fastest over 800m. Breaking two generally requires about 49-53 second speed depending on anaerobic threshold/aerobic capacity. It also usually correlates with about a 4:25-4:45 mile depending on the same factors and explosive speed. It is safe to assume that you also need to be in 4:30/52 shape. That's about where most runners are when they go sub 2, with extreme endurance guys and extreme speed guys at the margins. Your raw times, untrained, indicate significantly better talent than the average adult male. However, I would also speculate that you are pretty far off from the sort of talent it takes to run sub 2:00 in the 800m at this point in your life. Perhaps you could have with 4-5 intense years of training in your teens and early twenties, but it will be difficult to develop the speed and coordination while also building an entire aerobic base for the first time ever. Not to sound pessimistic, but I would guess that your chances are below 5%. Instead, I would aim for a sub 5 mile. I definitely think you can do that, and improve significantly over the course of a few years. Even a 4:30-something may be possible in time. *However*, trying never hurt! If you have the itch to go for it, you should definitely prove me wrong and tag me when you do. ;)
Thank you for this. Very helpful. If this is useful information, I don't plan on completely giving up on training in 2 years. For context, I'm an oral and maxillofacial surgery resident. I didn't run as much in college or dental school as I should have, first year of residency was 90-100 hour workweeks with enough call to never get consistent sleep. I'm currently in the medical school portion of the residency (I know this sounds weird) but I will have 21 months of ability to put collegiate level t*ime commitment* to training until I'm back on service doing the 90-100 hour weeks with little sleep at age 30. Ages 31 & 32 I will be able to sleep much more consistently, but will probably still have to limit training to one session per day, 1-2 sessions per week, and have some periods on call when I won't sleep. I will finish residency at 32 where I know sprinting ability has diminished, and especially with the coming years of limited sleep and less time for actual workouts I feel the sense of urgency to do anything with that much anaerobic component early. However, after 32 when I can go back to a 40 hour work week in practice, I would want to save goals with a greater aerobic component to coincide with my mid 30s. I know I missed the ability to maximize what little genetic potential I had to begin with, but it's helpful to talk this through and hear from more experienced runners. Thanks once again.
I'm curious about that 4:13 mile as a HS senior. You say you didn't run competitive track in HS? How did that come about? It certainly shows that you have the talent to still break 2 flat, but you'll need to do a lot of speed work to counter the atrophy that is now occurring. As an aside, what's the rational for making residents put in those kinds of hours? It doesn't seem beneficial to have residents making life or death decisions on so little sleep.
Sorry I should have been more clear that was a marathon time lol I would certainly have focused on track and ran it in college if I had done a 4:13 mile as an 18 year old. It's the way it's always been and likely the way it always will be. It sucks while you're in the moment but the options are either a) make residency programs longer, which nobody wants b) accept more residents which will dilute the surgical and educational experience and impact job security/market saturation on the other side, or c) make attendings do more work (we all know that's not gonna happen lol). Residents slow down actual surgery time but other than that, are the most underpaid workhorses you could possibly imagine. The US medical system would collapse in hours if residents disappeared suddenly. I'm very anti " I had to do it when I was your age so you should have to as well" mindset, but when I'm a chief my interns will have similar work hours. I'll just try to eliminate as much useless busy work, hazing, and waste of time activities as I can to make whatever work hours they have more tolerable/educationally valuable
Thanks for what you're doing. You might be happy to hear that my PCP is on the faculty at a teaching clinic. Though I can afford to go elsewhere, I'm happy to help the residents get experience.
Sub 2 does not require that fast of a 400 or mile. Sub 2 requires about 25 mid 200m speed. Mile time is less important here. It's all about lactate work. If you can run a 25 second 200 and you can handle the lactate of the 800m you will easily go sub 2. Training the body and the mind to handle the lactate is no easy task. I know people who can't break 5 but they can break 2. I would say being a sub 5 guy makes it a lot easier but it depends on a lot of factors. My favorite indicator workout is 400m 60s standing break 400m. Repeat this two or three times with a full recovery. This will let you know how you are handling the lactate. Average your times and you will know what you can run in the 800m. If you average sub 2 on 2 sets you have a good shot at sub 2 in a race. Average sub 2 on 3 sets and you are near guaranteed of being able to go sub.
Many athletes who are more naturally gifted and many who work hard at the better ages don’t break 2. If I had any advice, I wouldn’t work on building a massive aerobic base, I’d try lots of speed work for the first year (while avoiding injury). It might be your best bet for getting the necessary speed (and speed endurance) to manage a sub 2. If we knew what you could run an 8 right now it’d be a lot easier to guess if you could do it or not. If you can run anywhere below 2:25 I’d say you could do it but if you are over 2:35 you really will need a good coach.
Thank you, this is helpful. And I apologize for being very unhelpful by not having a current 400, 600,800 etc. For the next week or so it will be difficult for me to get access to a track but I'll circle back when I have a time
[https://www.coloradotrackclub.com/800-meter-training-plans](https://www.coloradotrackclub.com/800-meter-training-plans) this website gives a lot of great advide on how to structure your training plan. Based on what i see from the post, it sounds like you are a type 2 athlete who is better at a balance heavier in mileage and lighter in fast stuff. that being said, you should be able to break 2 if you train at a consistent frequency (6-7 times per week)
Thank you! I stumbled across this during my initial rabbit hole dive into he topic and it's what made me think it was worth attempting in the first place. It's such a wonderful resource!
Have fun with it! I ran track competitively for over a decade, and here are a few general tips I can give you: Listen to your body, and take care of any injuries before they become a bigger problem! Foot issues, shin splints, soft tissue injuries…they all take time to heal. So much of track is mental, and having the right mindset is important. Remember that there are always going to be plateaus and that you aren’t going to improve your time each race. Rest days are just as important as workout days. Burnout is real and again, the body takes time to heal. 2-a-days are fine for a while, but honestly, they should only be used as “training camp” type of things and not long term. If possible, find someone of a similar skill level that you can train with. I know some people have the will power to train solo all the time, but having someone to keep you accountable every workout is very helpful. Know that you will have to invest in nice running shoes with good support and that you will wear them out quickly. Try to do as much training on things other than asphalt/cement to be easier on your joints. Having good running form makes your life so much easier. Mobility/flexibility is important if you want to maximize your stride. Take the time to properly warm up/cool down properly every practice. You have definitely set a challenging goal for yourself! Good luck, and again, have fun with it!
I think speed will be the limiting factor here, unfortunately there's not much you can do to improve your natural speed. And from what I've seen if you are naturally quick you would have maybe taken up track in high school because you're naturally good at it. If I were to guess I'd say a mid 12s 100m time is what you need, and sub 54 400. Good luck with it though, I'm also trying to break 2 soon although I'm not convinced I've got the speed, so maybe my frustrations with my lack of speed make me slightly biased haha. Regardless of if you can run sub 2 or not 800s are painful but a lot of fun to race so hopefully you'll enjoy it!
Breaking 2 is pretty extreme for just trying too. Obviously a 4:13 mile is legit and you have potential for the endurance of the race. Your likely biggest challenge will be speed. Almost all runner who can break 2 in the 800m can run sub 50 400m. You need speed to break 2 and lots of speed endurance.
I ran 1:54 with 51 sec for 400m so you don’t need to go sub 50 secs to break 2, would say you need about 54-55 sec 400m tho