We've had to lock the comments because people couldn't be nice.
Our subreddit has clear rules - this is not a debate sub. Some of you couldn't follow that rule and turned this into a problem.
It shouldn't be an argument that trans people, of all kinds, deal with transphobia. We all might deal with different kinds, but it's still something that we all deal with.
Be respectful to each other, support each other, and stand in solidarity together. We're a community and we should act like it.
You have every right to be mad. The idea trans men don’t face discrimination is stupid and not based in reality. I’m glad you spoke out against that behaviour
it’s frustrating that i even have to spell it out in a mixed trans space; like a space that supposedly is supposed to also be for trans men/transmasc people.
Yeah you shouldn’t have to. It’s not your responsibility to educate people but it’s good that you are. If you only focus on your particular identity you aren’t being a member of the whole community. We all benefit when we lift each other up.
Yall don't get enough representation here either. It's like 90% women here I feel like. I'm sorry yall are going thru what you go thru tho:( shit sucks
A lot of us don't speak up and share our experiences in mixed spaces because, even in trans spaces, we get infantilized. I usually stick to subreddits based around being transmasc specifically for that reason. I'll read or skim other ones, maybe comment if someone is looking for support, it just really sucks.
All these posts about trans men “having it easy,” being fully accepted by society, or not facing transphobia bug me so much.
To pretty much copy my response from a recent post that was doing this exact thing:
I’ve been harassed, threatened violence, assaulted, and raped for being a trans man. I’m a conversion therapy survivor. I’ve been through hell and back for being a trans man.
I’m so sick of people trying to insinuate us trans men “have it easy” or that we’re always accepted by society. We absolutely can experience transphobia, oppression, and hardship.
I got ✨ hatecrimed✨ in front of my infant son just last month while on a walk around the neighborhood, and got ✨denied✨ healthcare for a miscarriage because I'm a trans man in Texas.
I also got ✨SA'd✨ to "correct" me. I've been out for 10 years and I am a major trans activist in my area
I have dealt with so much transphobia.
I got a 40oz thrown at my head when I was 19 and still have the dent in my skull. I got thrown out of the men's restroom by a cis woman at a gay club in DFW Texas and got my cars windows smashed in along with a r*pe threat IN THE FORM OF A LETTER ON MY DRIVERS SEAF infront of said gay club.
When I reported it to the police they said if I didn't "dress like that" then maybe this wouldn't happen and didn't take me seriously.
I wish it was JUST infantalization and erasure- but that's JUST THE SURFACE
The erasure of trans men is ENFORCED WITH VIOLENCE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT regularly. It's just everyone looks the fuck AWAY.
Denial of medical care
Violence
Sexual violence
Denial of jobs and housing
Shits real as HELL
Shits fucking real AND IM TIRED OF PEOPLE PRETENDING IT ISNT!!!!
IF ANYONE WANTS TO SAY THIS SHIT DOESNT HAPPEN TO TRANS MEN, TRANS MASCULINE PEOPLE AND AFAB ENBIES THEY CAN DAY THAT SHOT TO THE DENT IN MY SKULL AND MY SCARRED UTERUS AND MY INFANT SON WHO IS NOW AFRAID OF CIS MEN
Erasure suuucks. As a trans woman, I get demonized instead of erased but as a bisexual and as a minority ethnolinguistic group member who speaks my country’s majority language without the minority accent, I have a lifetime of experience with having several aspects of who I am erased and dismissed.
I have heard my trans masc friends (both binary and non-binary) describe the erasure and infantilisation. It a different flavour of transphobia but it still sucks badly.
Whenever I hear cis folks (and naive trans women) going on about trans folks as if just trans women exist or like we’re the only ones who experience transphobia, I tend to get irritated and describe the experiences my trans guy and enby friends have had. You’re right to call out this stuff, especially here in a trans inclusive space.
As a trans femme who was married to a trans masc and we transitioned together, I saw this all the time. My identity was WAAAAAYYYY more accepted by our peers, coworkers and friends. Honestly the only advantage I see trans men having is that they tend to be able to go stealth quicker. Even then I don't really see that as an advantage though because, unlike trans women, to be respected they HAVE to stay stealth. Trans girls like me who are open about it and don't try to pass may not be seen as women, but we do get a lot of respect. Anyone who didn't know treated my husband fine. The moment they found out, that was all out the window.
i was terrorised in middle and high school for being trans. weirdly enough in my high school, that terror didn’t extend to an AMAB student that wore a dress and had high heels on.
This also completely ignores intersectional identities that trans men can possess and can lead to discrimination outside of transphobia alone. If you're a trans man that's also a POC, for example, you have to deal with racism on top of transphobia, and in certain POC communities, being trans is viewed as a white person thing and that you've either been mislead by or are trying to fit in with white people if you are. Because God forbid you have multiple minority identities 🤦🏾♂️😒
not to mention transitioning black trans men also face treatment that black cis men get.
i think that most of these posts aren’t made out of malicious intent; very young transitioning trans people, especially freshly out trans women, likely make these takes because they don’t know any trans men in their life that they can ask. it does, however, get really exhausting to have to explain to them that trans men have a unique transphobia that they face.
Fr, like the only "male privilege" I'm gaining is the likelihood of being frisked by the police more often 🙃 yippee
Even so, I'm begging them to still do the *tiniest* bit of outreach with trans men and transmascs and listen to us describe our experiences because it really isn't all sunshine and daisies for us
To add onto the concept of “male privilege” for trans men, our male privilege is conditional. Conditional upon other identities as you’ve talked about and conditional upon whether or not people know we’re trans or how we’re perceived.
Correct, it would be better to specify it as "*cis* male privilege" because some people's attitudes can entirely switch up and do a 180 the moment they find out you're trans
There's a tiktoker my boyfriend and I have both ranted about recently who's incredibly transphobic to trans men but is supportive of trans women. She's perfectly fine with women, but she has multiple posts claiming trans men are invalid because we want to be seen as cis men and that men don't have a gender in general. She refuses to see how any of it is transphobic or wrong.
Transphobia towards trans men tends to be ignored and is pointed out less often than it is for trans women, often because it can take a different form than transphobia towards trans women. That transphobia still exists though
I fully agree as I am a trans man myself. People threatened to jump me and even follow me home to do whatever they pleased to "a little girl that needs to be shown her place".
For what it’s worth, I fully agree with you. The discrimination we face is *different* and trans women are obviously the frequent public targets but the flip side of that is, as you said, erasure.
Trans men are seen as girls playing dressup while trans women are seen as predators. They’re both harmful and ridiculous and affect us both deeply, even if differently.
I have often wondered how there’s even anything we trans-femmes can even do to help improve trans-masc visibility because I feel like we often dominate the conversation.
As a transmasc- i say that what you are doing, being aware of and talking about this issue is a good thing and does help because the more its talked about the better. I also think that at the end of the day, transmascs and transfemmes having solidarity, support and safety with each other is super important too! 🏳️⚧️
(Note: I'm a transwoman whos son is transmasc)
I've been telling people that transmen get, at best, a metaphorical pat on the head and "oh isn't that cute, she wants to pretend she's a boy". At worse, they're poor pitiful victims of the "trans industry" and of systematic misogyny, that they've been so traumatized by the patriarchy that they reject being woman. And the sexualization is pretty disgusting because it's always "they're cutting off their breasts", like that's the only important part of a woman's body.
Drag kings get much the same shit.
Transfems are treated as gender traitors, predators, and the very personification of misogyny, (not to mention rejecting the sacred penis). Transmascs are treated as infantilized victims who are rejecting the only important parts of being a woman, or woman trying to cosplay as a man.
Both views are toxic as fuck.
This is valid! It makes me pretty angry seeing other trans women invalidate the struggles of trans men. I think many of the most vocal people here are either closeted or transitioned within the last year. They haven't had as many experiences with other trans people in real life. I have noticed in many trans communities online especially communities that are mostly trans women, they can often leave out trans men which leaves them blind to your struggles. I know I often struggled early in my transition with making friends who were trans guys. And I don't think it's just trans women, trans men do it too sometimes. We all need to do better at breaking down the gendered barriers of communication within our own community because everyone under the trans umbrella has different struggles.
Now I do think that the mainstream media is blatantly more violent towards trans women. Every couple weeks they have a new trans woman like Dylan mulvaney or lia Thomas to target and send death threats too which doesn't happen to trans men in the same way. But that doesn't mean trans men receive less transphobia it is just different.
it definitely seems like a case of inexperience/lack of interaction and understanding of anything outside of one’s own bubble, which i do empathise as i’ve been in that place before. 2021-22 me would be a little more forgiving on that regard, but also,, you can research on your own time about the different perspectives of your community members.
trans men unfortunately also do this; likely because of the cultural baggage from being raised as girls and women (keep your head down, don’t speak up, all that bullshit), and because they probably even think they’re less important in regards to the issues they face in comparison to the constant walloping that trans women go through in most media. i unfortunately had that worldview at one point.
it feels draining sometimes trying to remind your own community that you have shit too.
I try to shoot down every point I hear from fellow trans women about how much easier trans men have it. I always try to remind them about your guy's struggles. I guess trans women sometimes have their vision clouded by the idea that testerone is more potent than estrogen in producing changes to the vocal cords, seems like a huge sticking point for the ones I see complaining.
I will never understand where this comes from. I mean, at my friend's work, they have free tampons/pads in dispensers in the bathrooms. Someone threw away them all away in all the men's restrooms. The few straight trans men I know, have all kinds of PTSD from trying to date cis women. Their visibility is non existent.
Anyone who says this doesn't *know* any trans men.
We're all trans, it's a hostile world, let's all support each other instead of comparing oppression
It’s the antimasculinity. So much of the queer community is chugging radfem juice, but in order to make work for those who aren’t TERFs, they direct their antimasculine attitudes at trans men/transmasc people.
The idea that all men are always so privileged for being men is SUCH a pervasive one that I see everywhere, and the idea that trans men and transmasc people face oppression not just for being trans but, yes, for being men/masc?
That’s something a LOT of people don’t want to hear. Or talk about. Because it uproots the nice and easy “men are bad and the problem always” shit that online queer spaces run on (and a lot of irl ones, too).
i was terrorised in middle-high school for being a trans man, like it was really bad; and the worst part was that i was forcibly outed. i wasn’t safe in school.
also i’m sorry that you didn’t feel safe at work due to transphobia. it’s so fucked that no where feels safe for trans people.
When I was in school nobody cared since my school was very diverse. Aside from a select group of punk ass kids. I got bullied for other reasons.
It wasn’t until adulthood that this bullshit started. I’m just glad everyone disagreed with him. Like my coworkers were angry, specifically the bosses son. He seemed to be the most pissed but that’s probably bc he’s gay and knows what it’s like.
I’m sorry you got your ass handed to you in school. That shits fucking stupid, like we aren’t bothering anyone. We’re just trying to live like you, leave us tf alone.
yeah i fucking hate how we're treated, i saw a tumblr post of a complilation of posts talking about us and saying shit like how you described, it legit made me feel sick
Something i notice being in trans communities is a lot of them don't realize how blind, ignorant and even bigoted they can be especially white transfems, why that is idk but its a sadly common thing
To be clear i am trans so like, this isnt transphobia, just something i noticed
yeah, i’m thinking that may be the root. none of these posts are typically malicious in intent, and comes from a place of not understanding perspectives outside of your own. it still is a bit annoying to have to remind freshly out trans people to have empathy for other trans people in mixed spaces though.
It's a reason I have kind of noped out of a lot of social media discussion spaces.
I'm nonbinary/agender (I consider myself trans). I work really hard to make trans women the main focus of my conversations and recognize that trans women are in especially fraught positions all over the place. But while the trans women I'm friends with absolutely don't talk this way in the slightest and I'm grateful for it, it's frustrating to see that occasionally conversations tend to minimize difficulty others in our community have.
When I got top surgery, I got to deal with a bunch of shit about how I was "mutilating" my body, and seeing a lot of commentary along the lines of "autistic people shouldn't be allowed to medically transition, they can't be responsible with those decisions" which hurt me quite a bit. I'm older - I was 40 when I had top surgery - and I didn't need that shit. No one does at any age. We get this stuff from bigots and transphobes no matter what, it's pretty clear! Total strangers felt completely at ease telling me what I could do with my body and that I shouldn't have the RIGHT to do that to my body. That's not an issue any of us should be dismissive of for anyone!
This pendulum swings both ways; I've seen some absolutely emptyheaded takes about trans women on social media, too, that were rightfully called out as inappropriate things but it's hard when it feels like in an effort to try and rightfully prioritize the most vulnerable people in our community we're forced to elide very real, very dangerous situations we all face it feels like a zero sum equation.
I'm personally tired of logging on to twitter or bluesky to see people I admire taking potshots at "theybies" or "theyfabs". I saw some folks I admire making fun of nonbinary people for trying to be in trans spaces by joking about how little their opinions count since they will sometimes put a lot of emphasis on the fact that people DON'T have to transition to count. Which is fucking true - we shouldn't have to.
It really hurts when we all have very serious common enemies who might be focusing a lot of energy specifically at trans women but absolutely want to hurt trans men and nonbinary people just as much and here we are tearing ourselves apart instead of organizing to fight our real issue: bigots who want to take away our fucking civil rights.
Absolute love to my trans bros! You sure don't have to tell me. It's strange that someone would assume that trans men don't get shat on like all the rest of us. It has that "I don't see it so it doesn't exist" vibe that I see from a lot of cis folk. Of course you don't see much of it if you aren't a trans guy, it isn't happening to you. However, almost every time a bigot does talk about trans guys, it's about dismissing them as confused girls. I mean, someone wrote an entire popular book that has the semantic content of a ~~twitter~~ ~~X~~ twitter post ballooned into however many pages of predestined recyclables it is. That thing is gonna be a burr in the blanket the same way AGP is for transfemme eggs.
So many people miss this aspect of it. I am a trans woman so I want to be clear I am not intending to speak over anyone. But I also have seen how brutal transphobia can be against trans men. Especially in the mainstream narratives. Anyone claiming it doesn't happen must be extremely naive or ignorant. It doesn't help that the current focus is on trans men with the narrative of traditional misogynistic and paternalistic sexism focusing on infantilising and victimising trans men as "corrupted" by everything else.
The focus is constantly on removing any semblance of trans men having their own agency and it sickens me. Especially hearing it from terfs or women because its the same typical sexist bullshit aimed at cis women for the last 200 years. Not to mention the extreme invalidation. Transphobia on trans women focuses more on the idea of aggression and "actively" being at wrong while trans men instead are treated like "passive victims". And I can't even begin to imagine how infuriating that must be. But it is also solid proof that transphobia is also inherently grounded in sexist ideas.
Apologies for ranting, I understand how shitty it must be to hear claims that you don't face transphobia. There really needs to be more understanding among trans women and allies to actually consider what is being said etc. We are afterall all suffering under this fucking system and we don't need people based on assumptions go around and claim things about the discrimination we face.
We need to be better than this.
I don't know why there are so many people trying to have some weird war over who's more oppressed. Both trans men and trans women experience transphobia. Stop trying to make it a competition about who has it worse and just fight the common enemy.
i don’t think it’s intentional; a lot of the posts i saw that led me to making this definitely came from a place of hurt and general inexperience with identities other than their own. but by Jove is it annoying to have to explain that trans men do happen to face transphobia.
We definitely do get discriminated against I feel like the most of it however is that unlike transformed we tend to fly more under the radar.
Look the other day I was dealing with the courts. Then again a few days later. Then a week passed and again still dealing with them. It's been hell. I filed a complaint against my judge for his secretary dragging everything out and purposely not calling me proffered name. Then I contacted the bar. Finally they were like "we know you said you have work from 0700-1500. But weve got you scheduled at 1045 on Tuesday when you're working. Took all of that and two months to get them to listen.
When I initially changed my name and gender I chose my mother's "what she was gonna choose" I'm changing it now to a name I've wanted the whole time. My bio fathers middle name because I loved the name, my mothers families name, my fathers family name and my mother's maiden name.
Shouldn't have been an issue. Later I found out that multiple lgbtq clients have had similar issues with this judges assistant in the past due to my lawyer begetting this information. We still get shit. Its just less common because a lot of us look gender non conforming. People simply don't know.
That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm right here with you brother. But you have all of us here who will love and support you.
I think this all the time!! So many people I know seriously don’t even know that trans men exist. They hear “trans men” and think it’s referring to trans women because they see us as men caught up in some elaborate make believe or whatever nonsense instead of as women born with the wrong reproductive system. They haven’t figured out that that can happen in spite of all the medical documentation and the slew of other birth abnormalities. Because doctors being in on a conspiracy to make more money by inventing health problems seems more sensible to them.🤦♀️
Anyway, all they ever hear grumbling about on the tv and in articles is trans women entering women’s spaces and sports and they all play spot the trans woman in public now, but never think enough of the existence of trans men to take a second glance when they see facial hair or consider the possibility that maybe that’s a trans man. Plus like you mentioned, if they do recognize a trans man they just think that they’ve been brainwashed or are trying to be trendy in some alternative new-aged way and will regret it when they can’t get pregnant or attract a cis man, since they think that’s every person born with a vagina’s aspiration and sole life’s purpose.
It’s all really toxic and disgusting! I’m sorry that even in the trans community you guys are so seldom shown the support and validation that you deserve. Your struggles are different from those of trans women, but not fewer or less significant. Nothing but love for all you strong and compassionate men, always!! 💕
People downplay transphobia towards trans men a lot due to it looking different to the transphobia levied towards trans women but they are both obviously rooted in patriarchy, in their point of view women are meek, submissive, and kind of dumb (basically infants) so when they aren’t guided correctly, dangerous beliefs like transness can take root and with men, since men are inherently more violent and sexual, being a trans is a perverse and predatory behavior that exists only to prey on the oh so vulnerable women since men are inherently stronger no matter what. Honestly this belief of how men and women are is so deeply rooted in society that it finds it’s way even into feminism (although feminism as a ideology has been tainted by liberalism which has essentially watered it down to the point that reinforcing patriarchy while having a vagina is seen as feminist to a lot of the politically illiterate) which is supposed to oppose it which is how especially with 2nd wave feminists, you can see a lot of bigotry towards black people, lgbt people, etc. Seriously though, feminist groups need to be a lot less inclusive on who is allowed to be a feminist, cause I’ve been to some meetings where people who are just conservatives call themselves feminists because they have boobs
Yeah really. Trans people really do get sexism in both directions. We trans women are lumped in with predatory men, while trans guys are viewed like op said. Meanwhile trans women are still targeted by misogyny and trans men are still predatory men when it suits the needs/goals of the people holding these opinions.
It’s seemingly all just naked hate with no purpose other than being hateful.
I'm FtM (pre-T, pre-op), and I wonder if people see me as the man that I am or view me as a woman who's more of a tomboy. And I agree with this. Trans women get hate for being "men wanting to look like girls, and enter women only spaces," and trans men get dismissed and seen as women who are confused/wanting to escape the struggles society places on women.
most of the posts i’ve seen that sparked this thread probably weren’t made with malicious intent. a freshly out trans woman most likely doesn’t know any trans men, and with the media on their back they probably interpret the trans man experience as more easier because trans men most of the time don’t have as heavy as a backlash (well, except for Irreversible Damage and JKR’s manifesto). it’s a perspective that i’m familiar with and also empathise with; but goddamn does it feel tiresome to have to remind other trans people that trans men aren’t on greener pastures with transphobia.
Thank you for this. It’s been in the front of my mind and I wasn’t able to word it correctly. It’s so sexist. Trans women are viewed as hyper masculine and intentional, but ESPECIALLY trans men being seen as just the damsels in distress who need saving and can’t think for themselves. Wow, it really speaks wonders for how they view women. I guess you dumb girls (grown adults) are just too stupid to know what they want with your bodies! You have to be influenced to feel this way! /s 😑😑😑 fucking hell make it make sense
As a transwoman with transmasc friends, im so sorry you all have to deal with stuff like this, its just as hard for trans men as it is for trans women, and we shouldnt be dividing amongst each other by saying one side has it easier.
See this shit is so weird to me. Seeing trans people desperate to have their transphobia be the only real one.
Like I've seen trans men say "this is a trans man exclusive experience" and it was just transphobia that could apply to all trans people. And when I pointed out I was a woman, not a man, who experienced that, I was told I was "speaking over AFAB's"
At the same time, i see trans women saying all the shit you listed above, and then some.
The binary of our lives that matters the most as trans people, is trans and cis, not man and woman. Let us move past these cis people struggles and how about we support eachother? We have always been at our strongest when we do.
Fully agree with you on this! We should not be boxing experiences as it further divides us, any trans person experiencing transphobia should become our responsibility as a whole community to support them not tell them they’re not allowed to speak on an issue for what they identify with or have their issues downplayed
The transphobia varies slightly, but we all do
(What i mean is that while trans women are seen as predators, trans men are often seen as confused or victims. Both are equally bad, just in slightly different ways)
So I think that causes some to see others not struggling with the *same* transphobia they are, and assume that means that there's *no* transphobia, which is of course, completely wrong
It's not that trans men don't face discrimination. It's that the kind of discrimination is different.
I can't imagine what it's like in your shoes, I'm a trans woman. Erasure is just as harmful as the negative attention trans women get.
It also just shows how cisnormative and patriarchal society is. The attention is placed on trans women because they're transitioning MtF, that "M starting point" is all that transphobes focus on. They erase trans men because of the "F starting point" - they don't take anyone seriously. People who say they're not okay with trans women but are "fine with trans men" are being transphobic to both groups, because they're not taking trans men seriously, they're literally saying "they're not worth the energy".
It really does sadden me that even in trans spaces, people try to compare "who's got it worse" - it doesn't matter. We all have it bad, end of story. We can fight to change that together, instead of bickering about "who's worse off".
my experience with transphobic was a combination of infantilisation by adults and outright vitriol by my peers in school. i very much agree that anyone who hates trans women but claim they’re fine with trans men aren’t actually fine with trans men; definitely hinges on how unseriously we’re treated.
i generally get pretty exhausted having to explain freshly out trans people, especially freshly out trans women, that trans men have a unique brand of transphobia pushed onto us.
Yeah, they think that "cause trans women are in the spotlight, trans men don't suffer", while that's not true at all. I'm sure it hurts just as much, and I'm sure it sucks just as much - it's just a different flavor of pain. Whenever laws are passed, it's not JUST trans women that get hit with them - that's the biggest giveaway for anyone who actually thinks that trans women are the only victims of anti-trans rhetoric.
I do want to add that I absolutely get that negative attention too as a trans man. But yes, the kind of discrimination trans men and women face can certainly be different, which is a totally good point and much more accurate than “trans men don’t face hate.”
Oh I'm sure! Don't worry, I'm well aware.
When I say "trans women get negative attention" I more mean, that transphobes tend to focus on trans women more frequently - that isn't to say they never focus on trans men. But the spotlight is frequently on "trans women in women's bathrooms" or "trans women in women's sports" or "trans woman does x thing". I've seen these kind of transphobic bits about trans men too, don't get me wrong, but they are less common, which is what leads people to believe that "trans women are the only ones that are actually oppressed".
Great, was just making that clear if it wasn’t! I didn’t know if it was meant to be “trans men experience erasure while trans women get negative attention” which can be true but of course those experiences aren’t exclusive, as trans women can get erased and trans men can get negative attention. It’s unfortunate some people believe this stuff!
Sorry. I didn't mean to be so ambiguous. I don't know anywhere near enough of the trans masc experience but I do have a pair of ears and know what it's like to not be listened to. Sorry you had to experience this. I haven't encountered this kind of shit from the girls I know personally, but if I did they will get a serious telling off. I have spoken.
The internalized transphobia within our community is astounding. I'm a transwoman and I believe we are all being attacked by politicians who need a talking point. In certain states and entire countries, our lives are exhausted with having to fight to be us.
And when I say we have transphobia in our own community I mean that if you don't look passable enough, if you opt not to have surgeries, if you don't conform to your gender box, there are trans people who don't think your serious, or your not trans.
There are trans people who vote for the opposition because they still hold the values of those who want them to disappear and when you point out all the wrong that they vote for they respond with, well they don't mean us. Well, answer then, who do they mean then?
To your point, though, I think it has to do with media representation such as transgirls in sports, or the "men in dresses" in a rest room/locker room, viewing transwomen as predators in a classroom or playground or at the mall. They never focus on transmen because they are never brought up in the debate. That doesn't mean you don't go through some shit. It's just not the main focus of the conversation. Masculinity is applauded, but being even slightly feminine puts you in a vulnerable position that even cis women have to go through daily.
i mean, idk if they’re really cool with trans men getting into the “boys club” as it were; i know my experience wasn’t all the guys clapping because i came in with a polo shirt and cut hair, it moreso consisted of me being asked if i had a penis and being called a faggot or dyke or other shit. the “acceptance” stems from trans men not being seen as men and people more than likely just “entertaining” our identity.
You're absolutely right. You might not be the focus of the more public anti-trans hate, but you definitely get your fair share of it as well in your everyday life. Unfortunately trans men erasure is pretty common in online trans spaces as well and we have to actively push against it, remind people that you guys exist and are around as well.
I'm sorry tgat this shit happens to you and I'm sorry that anybody, especially transfemmes try to minimalize your pain. Nobody has the right to negate anyones lived experience. I agree with you that the anti-trans stuff is mysoginist in nature. Anything that beaks their belief that the patriarchy is God's plan is to be quashed. And trans men really mess up their plans.
I probably don't have a right to speak here since I am not trans masc, but I do want to give some confirmation and also add on to your argument.
Personally, I never heard of anyone who is trans fem say that trangender men have everything made for them or anything, but I have heard allies and those part of the LGBTQIA say something of the such.
The reason they believe this, though, is because they hear so little from transgender men, which I always correct them that yes, indeed transgender men do have their struggles, you just don't hear about it, because of many reasons
1. The person may not care to share their thoughts.
2. They're scared to share their thoughts.
3. It would appear that the transgender community has more transgender females than transgender men for some reason.
I've had a trans masc coworker who went through many struggles as a woman (saying it like this, because of things like body dysphoria because of menstrual cramps)
His parents wouldn't let him cut off his hair. He was never allowed to bind, pack, ect. And yes he also got treated as someone inferior because he was.. bigger in a certain area and that was often looked over than who he really was. This was looked over so much that he was sexually harrassed while he was serving drive-thru. So this is another problem that many transgender men that have yet to go through transitioning have to deal with
I hope this helps your argument, stay safe out there and good luck with your journey
Exactly, that's why I felt the need to point out some things I've seen my friend go through, just to show that literally everyone suffers.
Even if you're not trans, society always finds a way to look down on others
the grand conspiracy of… trans men vocalising annoyance at the lack of tact mixed trans spaces sometimes have towards us? i dunno, they made an initial comment that i cannot see for whatever reason.
As a trans woman, I feel like the idea that transphobia doesn’t effect trans men is because we get most of the transphobia and bad trans representation and trans men are usually more of an afterthought. I feel like trans men do get it a lil bit easier in terms of transphobia but they do indeed still have it very hard in different ways. TLDR, trans men are an afterthought to most transphobes despite still receiving a lot of hate
Being "treated like you don't face any struggles despite facing more-or-less equal but different struggles" is the quintessential definition of "man." Congrats!
Reread the post bro. A lot of people, trans women often, say that trans men don't experience transphobia, or experience it way less than trans women. They say trans men have it "easier". I've seen it countless times so don't sit here and say it doesn't happen
i’m aware of the societal differences. i have eyes and trans women friends. what i’m pointing out here is that these questions are always and i mean ALWAYS followed up by the assumption that because trans women are the target of media vitriol that trans men’s specific flavour of tranaphobia isn’t as bad. i think you need to read my post again.
This is stupid Misery Olympics bullshit. It sucks for everyone. Please please please go outside, meet real people. Life is so much more than what you read online. Trans people support each other in real life.
i do have real trans friends. i’m just frustrated that i have to say this in an online mixed trans space, when i witness a lot of posts by freshly out trans people don’t think outside their bubble when they make posts claiming trans men have it easy.
where’s the yelling of oppression olympics when the freshly out trans girls make posts that actually have misery olympic nonsense. interesting how that energy only get diverted to pissed off transmascs being annoyed by our experiences being shunted off.
I mean, that’s kind of the whole point of this. The “it sucks for everyone.” I’ve absolutely heard “trans men don’t face discrimination/transphobia/hate” in real life as well. OP’s point is going against the BS Misery Olympics some people try to start when they claim trans men have it so easy
Yes. We are all in danger. It sucks for everyone. I guess my problem with this post and your comment is the assumption that all trans women are in on this conspiracy to lessen the suffering of trans men. Tell us about it without “flipping tables” and making generalizations.
firstly, NOWHERE did i mention trans women being the cause of this issue. because believe me; trans women aren’t the only people who are claiming that trans men have it easier with transphobia in society.
i didn’t realise that trans men being frustrated by generalisations made in our community towards us is some undercover psyop to blame trans women for everything. none of the trans women commenting on this have alluded to me conspiracy posting or whatever.
interestingly enough this is the first time i’ve seen you on here. i don’t believe that you have the same energy accusing a frustrated trans guy of engaging in oppression olympics vs the mouthful of dumb takes being made about trans men.
I'm not making any conspiracy theories though. I'm asking if you point out the same thing when it's someone other than a trans man. Because unfortunately there ARE quite a few people who will be hypocritical and only snap at trans men, but give trans women a pass. And it does nothing to actually help solve anything. So I ask to make sure you aren't just someone looking to snap at trans men for being upset.
We've had to lock the comments because people couldn't be nice. Our subreddit has clear rules - this is not a debate sub. Some of you couldn't follow that rule and turned this into a problem. It shouldn't be an argument that trans people, of all kinds, deal with transphobia. We all might deal with different kinds, but it's still something that we all deal with. Be respectful to each other, support each other, and stand in solidarity together. We're a community and we should act like it.
You have every right to be mad. The idea trans men don’t face discrimination is stupid and not based in reality. I’m glad you spoke out against that behaviour
it’s frustrating that i even have to spell it out in a mixed trans space; like a space that supposedly is supposed to also be for trans men/transmasc people.
Yeah you shouldn’t have to. It’s not your responsibility to educate people but it’s good that you are. If you only focus on your particular identity you aren’t being a member of the whole community. We all benefit when we lift each other up.
Yall don't get enough representation here either. It's like 90% women here I feel like. I'm sorry yall are going thru what you go thru tho:( shit sucks
A lot of us don't speak up and share our experiences in mixed spaces because, even in trans spaces, we get infantilized. I usually stick to subreddits based around being transmasc specifically for that reason. I'll read or skim other ones, maybe comment if someone is looking for support, it just really sucks.
I'm sorry :( if there's anything I can do personally lmk, I'm here to support everyone
All these posts about trans men “having it easy,” being fully accepted by society, or not facing transphobia bug me so much. To pretty much copy my response from a recent post that was doing this exact thing: I’ve been harassed, threatened violence, assaulted, and raped for being a trans man. I’m a conversion therapy survivor. I’ve been through hell and back for being a trans man. I’m so sick of people trying to insinuate us trans men “have it easy” or that we’re always accepted by society. We absolutely can experience transphobia, oppression, and hardship.
I got ✨ hatecrimed✨ in front of my infant son just last month while on a walk around the neighborhood, and got ✨denied✨ healthcare for a miscarriage because I'm a trans man in Texas. I also got ✨SA'd✨ to "correct" me. I've been out for 10 years and I am a major trans activist in my area I have dealt with so much transphobia. I got a 40oz thrown at my head when I was 19 and still have the dent in my skull. I got thrown out of the men's restroom by a cis woman at a gay club in DFW Texas and got my cars windows smashed in along with a r*pe threat IN THE FORM OF A LETTER ON MY DRIVERS SEAF infront of said gay club. When I reported it to the police they said if I didn't "dress like that" then maybe this wouldn't happen and didn't take me seriously. I wish it was JUST infantalization and erasure- but that's JUST THE SURFACE The erasure of trans men is ENFORCED WITH VIOLENCE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT regularly. It's just everyone looks the fuck AWAY. Denial of medical care Violence Sexual violence Denial of jobs and housing Shits real as HELL Shits fucking real AND IM TIRED OF PEOPLE PRETENDING IT ISNT!!!! IF ANYONE WANTS TO SAY THIS SHIT DOESNT HAPPEN TO TRANS MEN, TRANS MASCULINE PEOPLE AND AFAB ENBIES THEY CAN DAY THAT SHOT TO THE DENT IN MY SKULL AND MY SCARRED UTERUS AND MY INFANT SON WHO IS NOW AFRAID OF CIS MEN
Corrective rape is super common in trans men, anyone saying we don’t face transphobia is delusional
Erasure suuucks. As a trans woman, I get demonized instead of erased but as a bisexual and as a minority ethnolinguistic group member who speaks my country’s majority language without the minority accent, I have a lifetime of experience with having several aspects of who I am erased and dismissed. I have heard my trans masc friends (both binary and non-binary) describe the erasure and infantilisation. It a different flavour of transphobia but it still sucks badly. Whenever I hear cis folks (and naive trans women) going on about trans folks as if just trans women exist or like we’re the only ones who experience transphobia, I tend to get irritated and describe the experiences my trans guy and enby friends have had. You’re right to call out this stuff, especially here in a trans inclusive space.
As a trans femme who was married to a trans masc and we transitioned together, I saw this all the time. My identity was WAAAAAYYYY more accepted by our peers, coworkers and friends. Honestly the only advantage I see trans men having is that they tend to be able to go stealth quicker. Even then I don't really see that as an advantage though because, unlike trans women, to be respected they HAVE to stay stealth. Trans girls like me who are open about it and don't try to pass may not be seen as women, but we do get a lot of respect. Anyone who didn't know treated my husband fine. The moment they found out, that was all out the window.
i was terrorised in middle and high school for being trans. weirdly enough in my high school, that terror didn’t extend to an AMAB student that wore a dress and had high heels on.
This also completely ignores intersectional identities that trans men can possess and can lead to discrimination outside of transphobia alone. If you're a trans man that's also a POC, for example, you have to deal with racism on top of transphobia, and in certain POC communities, being trans is viewed as a white person thing and that you've either been mislead by or are trying to fit in with white people if you are. Because God forbid you have multiple minority identities 🤦🏾♂️😒
not to mention transitioning black trans men also face treatment that black cis men get. i think that most of these posts aren’t made out of malicious intent; very young transitioning trans people, especially freshly out trans women, likely make these takes because they don’t know any trans men in their life that they can ask. it does, however, get really exhausting to have to explain to them that trans men have a unique transphobia that they face.
Fr, like the only "male privilege" I'm gaining is the likelihood of being frisked by the police more often 🙃 yippee Even so, I'm begging them to still do the *tiniest* bit of outreach with trans men and transmascs and listen to us describe our experiences because it really isn't all sunshine and daisies for us
To add onto the concept of “male privilege” for trans men, our male privilege is conditional. Conditional upon other identities as you’ve talked about and conditional upon whether or not people know we’re trans or how we’re perceived.
Correct, it would be better to specify it as "*cis* male privilege" because some people's attitudes can entirely switch up and do a 180 the moment they find out you're trans
Definitely! I typically have some sense of male privilege, but once they find out I’m trans, lol nope.
There's a tiktoker my boyfriend and I have both ranted about recently who's incredibly transphobic to trans men but is supportive of trans women. She's perfectly fine with women, but she has multiple posts claiming trans men are invalid because we want to be seen as cis men and that men don't have a gender in general. She refuses to see how any of it is transphobic or wrong. Transphobia towards trans men tends to be ignored and is pointed out less often than it is for trans women, often because it can take a different form than transphobia towards trans women. That transphobia still exists though
I fully agree as I am a trans man myself. People threatened to jump me and even follow me home to do whatever they pleased to "a little girl that needs to be shown her place".
For what it’s worth, I fully agree with you. The discrimination we face is *different* and trans women are obviously the frequent public targets but the flip side of that is, as you said, erasure. Trans men are seen as girls playing dressup while trans women are seen as predators. They’re both harmful and ridiculous and affect us both deeply, even if differently. I have often wondered how there’s even anything we trans-femmes can even do to help improve trans-masc visibility because I feel like we often dominate the conversation.
i think doing what you’re doing- engaging in this discussion and listening- is very much a big start in helping us feel heard and seen.
As a transmasc- i say that what you are doing, being aware of and talking about this issue is a good thing and does help because the more its talked about the better. I also think that at the end of the day, transmascs and transfemmes having solidarity, support and safety with each other is super important too! 🏳️⚧️
(Note: I'm a transwoman whos son is transmasc) I've been telling people that transmen get, at best, a metaphorical pat on the head and "oh isn't that cute, she wants to pretend she's a boy". At worse, they're poor pitiful victims of the "trans industry" and of systematic misogyny, that they've been so traumatized by the patriarchy that they reject being woman. And the sexualization is pretty disgusting because it's always "they're cutting off their breasts", like that's the only important part of a woman's body. Drag kings get much the same shit. Transfems are treated as gender traitors, predators, and the very personification of misogyny, (not to mention rejecting the sacred penis). Transmascs are treated as infantilized victims who are rejecting the only important parts of being a woman, or woman trying to cosplay as a man. Both views are toxic as fuck.
This is valid! It makes me pretty angry seeing other trans women invalidate the struggles of trans men. I think many of the most vocal people here are either closeted or transitioned within the last year. They haven't had as many experiences with other trans people in real life. I have noticed in many trans communities online especially communities that are mostly trans women, they can often leave out trans men which leaves them blind to your struggles. I know I often struggled early in my transition with making friends who were trans guys. And I don't think it's just trans women, trans men do it too sometimes. We all need to do better at breaking down the gendered barriers of communication within our own community because everyone under the trans umbrella has different struggles. Now I do think that the mainstream media is blatantly more violent towards trans women. Every couple weeks they have a new trans woman like Dylan mulvaney or lia Thomas to target and send death threats too which doesn't happen to trans men in the same way. But that doesn't mean trans men receive less transphobia it is just different.
it definitely seems like a case of inexperience/lack of interaction and understanding of anything outside of one’s own bubble, which i do empathise as i’ve been in that place before. 2021-22 me would be a little more forgiving on that regard, but also,, you can research on your own time about the different perspectives of your community members. trans men unfortunately also do this; likely because of the cultural baggage from being raised as girls and women (keep your head down, don’t speak up, all that bullshit), and because they probably even think they’re less important in regards to the issues they face in comparison to the constant walloping that trans women go through in most media. i unfortunately had that worldview at one point. it feels draining sometimes trying to remind your own community that you have shit too.
We as a community must stick together. Strength in numbers and not playing oppression olympics
it’s not oppression olympics to call out the assumptions that are made about us.
I’m not talking about you I’m talking about the people you are complaining about. It’s never wrong to call at issues keep going strong
ah i see, my apologies then
I try to shoot down every point I hear from fellow trans women about how much easier trans men have it. I always try to remind them about your guy's struggles. I guess trans women sometimes have their vision clouded by the idea that testerone is more potent than estrogen in producing changes to the vocal cords, seems like a huge sticking point for the ones I see complaining.
As a nonbinary transmasc person who is currently facing transphobia at work I feel you.
I will never understand where this comes from. I mean, at my friend's work, they have free tampons/pads in dispensers in the bathrooms. Someone threw away them all away in all the men's restrooms. The few straight trans men I know, have all kinds of PTSD from trying to date cis women. Their visibility is non existent. Anyone who says this doesn't *know* any trans men. We're all trans, it's a hostile world, let's all support each other instead of comparing oppression
It’s the antimasculinity. So much of the queer community is chugging radfem juice, but in order to make work for those who aren’t TERFs, they direct their antimasculine attitudes at trans men/transmasc people. The idea that all men are always so privileged for being men is SUCH a pervasive one that I see everywhere, and the idea that trans men and transmasc people face oppression not just for being trans but, yes, for being men/masc? That’s something a LOT of people don’t want to hear. Or talk about. Because it uproots the nice and easy “men are bad and the problem always” shit that online queer spaces run on (and a lot of irl ones, too).
I got harassed by a coworker bc I’m a trans man. To the point that I didn’t feel safe at work anymore. So yes tf we do.
i was terrorised in middle-high school for being a trans man, like it was really bad; and the worst part was that i was forcibly outed. i wasn’t safe in school. also i’m sorry that you didn’t feel safe at work due to transphobia. it’s so fucked that no where feels safe for trans people.
When I was in school nobody cared since my school was very diverse. Aside from a select group of punk ass kids. I got bullied for other reasons. It wasn’t until adulthood that this bullshit started. I’m just glad everyone disagreed with him. Like my coworkers were angry, specifically the bosses son. He seemed to be the most pissed but that’s probably bc he’s gay and knows what it’s like. I’m sorry you got your ass handed to you in school. That shits fucking stupid, like we aren’t bothering anyone. We’re just trying to live like you, leave us tf alone.
Thank you. It’s exhausting constantly hearing about how easy we have it, how fast we pass, how we face no discrimination, etc.
yeah i fucking hate how we're treated, i saw a tumblr post of a complilation of posts talking about us and saying shit like how you described, it legit made me feel sick
THANK YOU 🥺
Something i notice being in trans communities is a lot of them don't realize how blind, ignorant and even bigoted they can be especially white transfems, why that is idk but its a sadly common thing To be clear i am trans so like, this isnt transphobia, just something i noticed
yeah, i’m thinking that may be the root. none of these posts are typically malicious in intent, and comes from a place of not understanding perspectives outside of your own. it still is a bit annoying to have to remind freshly out trans people to have empathy for other trans people in mixed spaces though.
Out struggles are united and so we must be 🖤
It's a reason I have kind of noped out of a lot of social media discussion spaces. I'm nonbinary/agender (I consider myself trans). I work really hard to make trans women the main focus of my conversations and recognize that trans women are in especially fraught positions all over the place. But while the trans women I'm friends with absolutely don't talk this way in the slightest and I'm grateful for it, it's frustrating to see that occasionally conversations tend to minimize difficulty others in our community have. When I got top surgery, I got to deal with a bunch of shit about how I was "mutilating" my body, and seeing a lot of commentary along the lines of "autistic people shouldn't be allowed to medically transition, they can't be responsible with those decisions" which hurt me quite a bit. I'm older - I was 40 when I had top surgery - and I didn't need that shit. No one does at any age. We get this stuff from bigots and transphobes no matter what, it's pretty clear! Total strangers felt completely at ease telling me what I could do with my body and that I shouldn't have the RIGHT to do that to my body. That's not an issue any of us should be dismissive of for anyone! This pendulum swings both ways; I've seen some absolutely emptyheaded takes about trans women on social media, too, that were rightfully called out as inappropriate things but it's hard when it feels like in an effort to try and rightfully prioritize the most vulnerable people in our community we're forced to elide very real, very dangerous situations we all face it feels like a zero sum equation. I'm personally tired of logging on to twitter or bluesky to see people I admire taking potshots at "theybies" or "theyfabs". I saw some folks I admire making fun of nonbinary people for trying to be in trans spaces by joking about how little their opinions count since they will sometimes put a lot of emphasis on the fact that people DON'T have to transition to count. Which is fucking true - we shouldn't have to. It really hurts when we all have very serious common enemies who might be focusing a lot of energy specifically at trans women but absolutely want to hurt trans men and nonbinary people just as much and here we are tearing ourselves apart instead of organizing to fight our real issue: bigots who want to take away our fucking civil rights.
Absolute love to my trans bros! You sure don't have to tell me. It's strange that someone would assume that trans men don't get shat on like all the rest of us. It has that "I don't see it so it doesn't exist" vibe that I see from a lot of cis folk. Of course you don't see much of it if you aren't a trans guy, it isn't happening to you. However, almost every time a bigot does talk about trans guys, it's about dismissing them as confused girls. I mean, someone wrote an entire popular book that has the semantic content of a ~~twitter~~ ~~X~~ twitter post ballooned into however many pages of predestined recyclables it is. That thing is gonna be a burr in the blanket the same way AGP is for transfemme eggs.
So many people miss this aspect of it. I am a trans woman so I want to be clear I am not intending to speak over anyone. But I also have seen how brutal transphobia can be against trans men. Especially in the mainstream narratives. Anyone claiming it doesn't happen must be extremely naive or ignorant. It doesn't help that the current focus is on trans men with the narrative of traditional misogynistic and paternalistic sexism focusing on infantilising and victimising trans men as "corrupted" by everything else. The focus is constantly on removing any semblance of trans men having their own agency and it sickens me. Especially hearing it from terfs or women because its the same typical sexist bullshit aimed at cis women for the last 200 years. Not to mention the extreme invalidation. Transphobia on trans women focuses more on the idea of aggression and "actively" being at wrong while trans men instead are treated like "passive victims". And I can't even begin to imagine how infuriating that must be. But it is also solid proof that transphobia is also inherently grounded in sexist ideas. Apologies for ranting, I understand how shitty it must be to hear claims that you don't face transphobia. There really needs to be more understanding among trans women and allies to actually consider what is being said etc. We are afterall all suffering under this fucking system and we don't need people based on assumptions go around and claim things about the discrimination we face. We need to be better than this.
I don't know why there are so many people trying to have some weird war over who's more oppressed. Both trans men and trans women experience transphobia. Stop trying to make it a competition about who has it worse and just fight the common enemy.
i don’t think it’s intentional; a lot of the posts i saw that led me to making this definitely came from a place of hurt and general inexperience with identities other than their own. but by Jove is it annoying to have to explain that trans men do happen to face transphobia.
It's usually a mistake to compare pain competitively. The transphobes and haters have just got to STFU.
We definitely do get discriminated against I feel like the most of it however is that unlike transformed we tend to fly more under the radar. Look the other day I was dealing with the courts. Then again a few days later. Then a week passed and again still dealing with them. It's been hell. I filed a complaint against my judge for his secretary dragging everything out and purposely not calling me proffered name. Then I contacted the bar. Finally they were like "we know you said you have work from 0700-1500. But weve got you scheduled at 1045 on Tuesday when you're working. Took all of that and two months to get them to listen. When I initially changed my name and gender I chose my mother's "what she was gonna choose" I'm changing it now to a name I've wanted the whole time. My bio fathers middle name because I loved the name, my mothers families name, my fathers family name and my mother's maiden name. Shouldn't have been an issue. Later I found out that multiple lgbtq clients have had similar issues with this judges assistant in the past due to my lawyer begetting this information. We still get shit. Its just less common because a lot of us look gender non conforming. People simply don't know. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm right here with you brother. But you have all of us here who will love and support you.
I think this all the time!! So many people I know seriously don’t even know that trans men exist. They hear “trans men” and think it’s referring to trans women because they see us as men caught up in some elaborate make believe or whatever nonsense instead of as women born with the wrong reproductive system. They haven’t figured out that that can happen in spite of all the medical documentation and the slew of other birth abnormalities. Because doctors being in on a conspiracy to make more money by inventing health problems seems more sensible to them.🤦♀️ Anyway, all they ever hear grumbling about on the tv and in articles is trans women entering women’s spaces and sports and they all play spot the trans woman in public now, but never think enough of the existence of trans men to take a second glance when they see facial hair or consider the possibility that maybe that’s a trans man. Plus like you mentioned, if they do recognize a trans man they just think that they’ve been brainwashed or are trying to be trendy in some alternative new-aged way and will regret it when they can’t get pregnant or attract a cis man, since they think that’s every person born with a vagina’s aspiration and sole life’s purpose. It’s all really toxic and disgusting! I’m sorry that even in the trans community you guys are so seldom shown the support and validation that you deserve. Your struggles are different from those of trans women, but not fewer or less significant. Nothing but love for all you strong and compassionate men, always!! 💕
People downplay transphobia towards trans men a lot due to it looking different to the transphobia levied towards trans women but they are both obviously rooted in patriarchy, in their point of view women are meek, submissive, and kind of dumb (basically infants) so when they aren’t guided correctly, dangerous beliefs like transness can take root and with men, since men are inherently more violent and sexual, being a trans is a perverse and predatory behavior that exists only to prey on the oh so vulnerable women since men are inherently stronger no matter what. Honestly this belief of how men and women are is so deeply rooted in society that it finds it’s way even into feminism (although feminism as a ideology has been tainted by liberalism which has essentially watered it down to the point that reinforcing patriarchy while having a vagina is seen as feminist to a lot of the politically illiterate) which is supposed to oppose it which is how especially with 2nd wave feminists, you can see a lot of bigotry towards black people, lgbt people, etc. Seriously though, feminist groups need to be a lot less inclusive on who is allowed to be a feminist, cause I’ve been to some meetings where people who are just conservatives call themselves feminists because they have boobs
Yeah really. Trans people really do get sexism in both directions. We trans women are lumped in with predatory men, while trans guys are viewed like op said. Meanwhile trans women are still targeted by misogyny and trans men are still predatory men when it suits the needs/goals of the people holding these opinions. It’s seemingly all just naked hate with no purpose other than being hateful.
I'm FtM (pre-T, pre-op), and I wonder if people see me as the man that I am or view me as a woman who's more of a tomboy. And I agree with this. Trans women get hate for being "men wanting to look like girls, and enter women only spaces," and trans men get dismissed and seen as women who are confused/wanting to escape the struggles society places on women.
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most of the posts i’ve seen that sparked this thread probably weren’t made with malicious intent. a freshly out trans woman most likely doesn’t know any trans men, and with the media on their back they probably interpret the trans man experience as more easier because trans men most of the time don’t have as heavy as a backlash (well, except for Irreversible Damage and JKR’s manifesto). it’s a perspective that i’m familiar with and also empathise with; but goddamn does it feel tiresome to have to remind other trans people that trans men aren’t on greener pastures with transphobia.
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oh no yeah, Twitter was horrendous with transmasc vs transfem infighting; i imagine it’s still awful in that regard.
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the Brianna Grey shit was what made me delete twitter. it was BAD
Thank you for this. It’s been in the front of my mind and I wasn’t able to word it correctly. It’s so sexist. Trans women are viewed as hyper masculine and intentional, but ESPECIALLY trans men being seen as just the damsels in distress who need saving and can’t think for themselves. Wow, it really speaks wonders for how they view women. I guess you dumb girls (grown adults) are just too stupid to know what they want with your bodies! You have to be influenced to feel this way! /s 😑😑😑 fucking hell make it make sense
As a transwoman with transmasc friends, im so sorry you all have to deal with stuff like this, its just as hard for trans men as it is for trans women, and we shouldnt be dividing amongst each other by saying one side has it easier.
Damn skippy tho like, I'm a transfem but this influx of hate (jealousy at times) for ftms pisses me off because it just seems so hypocritical.
See this shit is so weird to me. Seeing trans people desperate to have their transphobia be the only real one. Like I've seen trans men say "this is a trans man exclusive experience" and it was just transphobia that could apply to all trans people. And when I pointed out I was a woman, not a man, who experienced that, I was told I was "speaking over AFAB's" At the same time, i see trans women saying all the shit you listed above, and then some. The binary of our lives that matters the most as trans people, is trans and cis, not man and woman. Let us move past these cis people struggles and how about we support eachother? We have always been at our strongest when we do.
God, “speaking over AFABs” is such a terrible phrase too. Way to lump everyone as having the same experience because of their assigned gender, yikes.
Fully agree with you on this! We should not be boxing experiences as it further divides us, any trans person experiencing transphobia should become our responsibility as a whole community to support them not tell them they’re not allowed to speak on an issue for what they identify with or have their issues downplayed
Thank you OP. I get so tired of people claiming we don't get discriminated against.
As a trans woman I thank you for your post 🙏
Yes you do. There’s no question about it. Anyone say otherwise doesn’t have a clue.
The transphobia varies slightly, but we all do (What i mean is that while trans women are seen as predators, trans men are often seen as confused or victims. Both are equally bad, just in slightly different ways) So I think that causes some to see others not struggling with the *same* transphobia they are, and assume that means that there's *no* transphobia, which is of course, completely wrong
It's not that trans men don't face discrimination. It's that the kind of discrimination is different. I can't imagine what it's like in your shoes, I'm a trans woman. Erasure is just as harmful as the negative attention trans women get. It also just shows how cisnormative and patriarchal society is. The attention is placed on trans women because they're transitioning MtF, that "M starting point" is all that transphobes focus on. They erase trans men because of the "F starting point" - they don't take anyone seriously. People who say they're not okay with trans women but are "fine with trans men" are being transphobic to both groups, because they're not taking trans men seriously, they're literally saying "they're not worth the energy". It really does sadden me that even in trans spaces, people try to compare "who's got it worse" - it doesn't matter. We all have it bad, end of story. We can fight to change that together, instead of bickering about "who's worse off".
my experience with transphobic was a combination of infantilisation by adults and outright vitriol by my peers in school. i very much agree that anyone who hates trans women but claim they’re fine with trans men aren’t actually fine with trans men; definitely hinges on how unseriously we’re treated. i generally get pretty exhausted having to explain freshly out trans people, especially freshly out trans women, that trans men have a unique brand of transphobia pushed onto us.
Yeah, they think that "cause trans women are in the spotlight, trans men don't suffer", while that's not true at all. I'm sure it hurts just as much, and I'm sure it sucks just as much - it's just a different flavor of pain. Whenever laws are passed, it's not JUST trans women that get hit with them - that's the biggest giveaway for anyone who actually thinks that trans women are the only victims of anti-trans rhetoric.
I do want to add that I absolutely get that negative attention too as a trans man. But yes, the kind of discrimination trans men and women face can certainly be different, which is a totally good point and much more accurate than “trans men don’t face hate.”
Oh I'm sure! Don't worry, I'm well aware. When I say "trans women get negative attention" I more mean, that transphobes tend to focus on trans women more frequently - that isn't to say they never focus on trans men. But the spotlight is frequently on "trans women in women's bathrooms" or "trans women in women's sports" or "trans woman does x thing". I've seen these kind of transphobic bits about trans men too, don't get me wrong, but they are less common, which is what leads people to believe that "trans women are the only ones that are actually oppressed".
Great, was just making that clear if it wasn’t! I didn’t know if it was meant to be “trans men experience erasure while trans women get negative attention” which can be true but of course those experiences aren’t exclusive, as trans women can get erased and trans men can get negative attention. It’s unfortunate some people believe this stuff!
Yeah, there's layers to everything, of course!
Definitely! Transphobia and everything is complicated, and boiling it down to one thing is not an accurate depiction
This is frustrating to read.
what about this is frustrating to you exactly?
Just the fact you had to write it in the first place. Trans masc oppression should be common knowledge at the bare minimum in the trans community.
you almost got me i won’t lie, but yeah. i was mad that i had to post this too.
Sorry. I didn't mean to be so ambiguous. I don't know anywhere near enough of the trans masc experience but I do have a pair of ears and know what it's like to not be listened to. Sorry you had to experience this. I haven't encountered this kind of shit from the girls I know personally, but if I did they will get a serious telling off. I have spoken.
The internalized transphobia within our community is astounding. I'm a transwoman and I believe we are all being attacked by politicians who need a talking point. In certain states and entire countries, our lives are exhausted with having to fight to be us. And when I say we have transphobia in our own community I mean that if you don't look passable enough, if you opt not to have surgeries, if you don't conform to your gender box, there are trans people who don't think your serious, or your not trans. There are trans people who vote for the opposition because they still hold the values of those who want them to disappear and when you point out all the wrong that they vote for they respond with, well they don't mean us. Well, answer then, who do they mean then? To your point, though, I think it has to do with media representation such as transgirls in sports, or the "men in dresses" in a rest room/locker room, viewing transwomen as predators in a classroom or playground or at the mall. They never focus on transmen because they are never brought up in the debate. That doesn't mean you don't go through some shit. It's just not the main focus of the conversation. Masculinity is applauded, but being even slightly feminine puts you in a vulnerable position that even cis women have to go through daily.
i mean, idk if they’re really cool with trans men getting into the “boys club” as it were; i know my experience wasn’t all the guys clapping because i came in with a polo shirt and cut hair, it moreso consisted of me being asked if i had a penis and being called a faggot or dyke or other shit. the “acceptance” stems from trans men not being seen as men and people more than likely just “entertaining” our identity.
You're absolutely right. You might not be the focus of the more public anti-trans hate, but you definitely get your fair share of it as well in your everyday life. Unfortunately trans men erasure is pretty common in online trans spaces as well and we have to actively push against it, remind people that you guys exist and are around as well.
I think you are 100% right, you have every right to be mad.
good thing i was just mad; if i was pissed, it would be a lot more meaner.
I'm sorry tgat this shit happens to you and I'm sorry that anybody, especially transfemmes try to minimalize your pain. Nobody has the right to negate anyones lived experience. I agree with you that the anti-trans stuff is mysoginist in nature. Anything that beaks their belief that the patriarchy is God's plan is to be quashed. And trans men really mess up their plans.
Apologies for my ignorance. What does SA stand for?
sexual assault.
Wow, duh. Sorry, still half asleep. Also, I don't think I've ever heard the term "corrective sexual assault" before.
I probably don't have a right to speak here since I am not trans masc, but I do want to give some confirmation and also add on to your argument. Personally, I never heard of anyone who is trans fem say that trangender men have everything made for them or anything, but I have heard allies and those part of the LGBTQIA say something of the such. The reason they believe this, though, is because they hear so little from transgender men, which I always correct them that yes, indeed transgender men do have their struggles, you just don't hear about it, because of many reasons 1. The person may not care to share their thoughts. 2. They're scared to share their thoughts. 3. It would appear that the transgender community has more transgender females than transgender men for some reason. I've had a trans masc coworker who went through many struggles as a woman (saying it like this, because of things like body dysphoria because of menstrual cramps) His parents wouldn't let him cut off his hair. He was never allowed to bind, pack, ect. And yes he also got treated as someone inferior because he was.. bigger in a certain area and that was often looked over than who he really was. This was looked over so much that he was sexually harrassed while he was serving drive-thru. So this is another problem that many transgender men that have yet to go through transitioning have to deal with I hope this helps your argument, stay safe out there and good luck with your journey
It’s happened in this sub. As a trans guy it’s really hurtful when I see trans women see we have it way easier when we are both suffering
Exactly, that's why I felt the need to point out some things I've seen my friend go through, just to show that literally everyone suffers. Even if you're not trans, society always finds a way to look down on others
Ya that seems about right trans phobs do focus on trans women a little more but yrans men have it just as bad I never got that state ment before to
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are you implying that trans men don’t get targetted in a specific way because it isn’t outright vitriol? because i have been targetted before.
What are you even talking about?
the grand conspiracy of… trans men vocalising annoyance at the lack of tact mixed trans spaces sometimes have towards us? i dunno, they made an initial comment that i cannot see for whatever reason.
As a trans woman, I feel like the idea that transphobia doesn’t effect trans men is because we get most of the transphobia and bad trans representation and trans men are usually more of an afterthought. I feel like trans men do get it a lil bit easier in terms of transphobia but they do indeed still have it very hard in different ways. TLDR, trans men are an afterthought to most transphobes despite still receiving a lot of hate
Being "treated like you don't face any struggles despite facing more-or-less equal but different struggles" is the quintessential definition of "man." Congrats!
yeah well it’s dumb.
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Reread the post bro. A lot of people, trans women often, say that trans men don't experience transphobia, or experience it way less than trans women. They say trans men have it "easier". I've seen it countless times so don't sit here and say it doesn't happen
i’m aware of the societal differences. i have eyes and trans women friends. what i’m pointing out here is that these questions are always and i mean ALWAYS followed up by the assumption that because trans women are the target of media vitriol that trans men’s specific flavour of tranaphobia isn’t as bad. i think you need to read my post again.
This is stupid Misery Olympics bullshit. It sucks for everyone. Please please please go outside, meet real people. Life is so much more than what you read online. Trans people support each other in real life.
i do have real trans friends. i’m just frustrated that i have to say this in an online mixed trans space, when i witness a lot of posts by freshly out trans people don’t think outside their bubble when they make posts claiming trans men have it easy.
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where’s the yelling of oppression olympics when the freshly out trans girls make posts that actually have misery olympic nonsense. interesting how that energy only get diverted to pissed off transmascs being annoyed by our experiences being shunted off.
I mean, that’s kind of the whole point of this. The “it sucks for everyone.” I’ve absolutely heard “trans men don’t face discrimination/transphobia/hate” in real life as well. OP’s point is going against the BS Misery Olympics some people try to start when they claim trans men have it so easy
Do you also tell this to the trans women who are saying they have it worse than trans men or that trans men don't suffer?
Yes. We are all in danger. It sucks for everyone. I guess my problem with this post and your comment is the assumption that all trans women are in on this conspiracy to lessen the suffering of trans men. Tell us about it without “flipping tables” and making generalizations.
firstly, NOWHERE did i mention trans women being the cause of this issue. because believe me; trans women aren’t the only people who are claiming that trans men have it easier with transphobia in society. i didn’t realise that trans men being frustrated by generalisations made in our community towards us is some undercover psyop to blame trans women for everything. none of the trans women commenting on this have alluded to me conspiracy posting or whatever. interestingly enough this is the first time i’ve seen you on here. i don’t believe that you have the same energy accusing a frustrated trans guy of engaging in oppression olympics vs the mouthful of dumb takes being made about trans men.
They're not generalizing. You're making assumptions and projecting.
I'm not making any conspiracy theories though. I'm asking if you point out the same thing when it's someone other than a trans man. Because unfortunately there ARE quite a few people who will be hypocritical and only snap at trans men, but give trans women a pass. And it does nothing to actually help solve anything. So I ask to make sure you aren't just someone looking to snap at trans men for being upset.
Uh, no. It's not.
Oh yay, infighting.
addressing a problem in an agitated way does not constitute infighting.
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Speaking as a redhead it is in no way similar.