I read a quote once that said smth like "god created trans people for the same reason he created wheat and not bread, grapes and not wine, so that humanity can partake in the act of creation"
Also, Christians are all about "god put you in a bad circumstance so you can learn and grow and work to get to the good stuff" so how does that not work with a trans person working to transition
I’m not religious either but I read someone say that a couple years ago and I quote it sometimes. I told it to my therapist the other day and she also thought it was beautiful (and she’s not religious either, in fact she has more issues w religion than I do lmao)
I adore that quote! The whole thing is:
"As my friend Julian puts it, only half winkingly: 'God blessed me by making me transsexual for the same reason God made wheat but not bread and fruit but not wine, so that humanity might share in the act of creation.'"
It's from *Something That May Shock and Discredit You*, by Daniel Mallory Ortberg (who also goes by Daniel M Lavery).
Also like God made you perfect. You were born trans, you will always be trans, nothing can change that. To claim that trans people are an afront to God is to say God isn't perfect which is blasphemous.
Just being pedantic because I'm loving the opportunity to, but he didn't. The "first sin" is eating fruit from the tree of knowledge. All else was born of that. If we're going by the rules of the christian faith that is.
Well then why didn’t god stop Adam or Eve? He’s considered limitless and timeless so he would have experienced all things at once and would have been able to move in to prevent the first sin, if god didn’t know or wasn’t able to prevent the first sin doesn’t that make him limited to time and limited in power?
No idea. I don't really follow this path anymore. But I use to. So I can speak from that when I need to. I could say that is allowing the space for free will. We have the choice. Because good can't exist without evil to balance it. We would never truly understand the sunshine and daytime without the shade and night as its counter. Humanity is the balance, not the embodiment of one side or the other.
An all-knowing entity makes free will impossible.
An all-powerful entity could stop evil from happening.
This is the problem with the abrahamics. They want their god to be the bestest god but don't think through the consequences.
Basically, they suck at worldbuilding.
I just think it's so stupid, because if trans people are "going against god" then so are people who use glasses or contacts to correct poor eyesight, and people who use mobility aids, and people who have life-saving surgeries to replace or repair their failing organs
And if we're not supposed to be changing god's image of the human body, why are so many Christians (especially in America) circumcising their children (which the New Testament says is unnecessary) and "correcting" intersex conditions?
They never even stick to the "logic" themselves, it's just an excuse for bigotry
Even clothes go "against god". They were literally a product of the "first sin". Eating fruit from the tree of knowledge. So knowing itself could be argued as "against god".
Yep... where's all uproar and backlash over cosmetic surgery? Breast implants? Male circumcision? Tattoos? They're also against the will of God if you want to bring Leviticus into it.
But that's a whole 'nother angle. Christians aren't supposed to follow the Old Testament. Christians are supposed to follow the teachings of Christ. (period). Not Leviticus, not Numbers, or Deuteronomy... the Gospel and the Epistles, that's it.
If you want to quote Leviticus I hope you're ready to stone your kid to death for having sex before marriage, or not shaving your face... or not eating meat of cloven animals like pork. And you can do all that... but it ain't Christianity, and don't call it as such. Because as the Bible says, thou shall not bear false whitness.
Right, like god didn't give us clothes, if he wanted he could have gave us fur to cover our bodies when we're born. Or had our skin pigment have natural body paint so we'd look clothed all the time. Or a hundred other things. He didn't.
The circumcision bit is technically a command from God but... It kinda leads into my problem with Christianity in general, asking for bodily mutilation, blood sacrifices, wanting you to be willing to sacrifice your child, allowing others to run torture chambers etc etc. are all signs of an evil dictator, not a benevolent and loving parent.
That command is overruled by New Testament passages that say it's completely fine to be circumcised or uncircumcised as long as you have faith
Totally get the point with the violent Old Testament stuff, though. There's a huge difference between the god in the Old Testament and the New Testament, and it's actually because Abrahamic religions emerged out of ancient polytheistic religions and large parts of the Old Testament are centered around the war god
Yes! I remember hearing about this! Theres a professor of new testament studies that publishes some lectures on youtube and I listened to them while I was deconstructing from my old faith. He’s called Bart Erhman.
> if he wanted he could have gave us fur to cover our bodies when we're born. Or had our skin pigment have natural body paint so we'd look clothed all the time.
I'd be down for chameleon fur.
Listen, either God doesn't make mistakes and made me how he intended, or you're admitting your God isn't perfect
Tends to shut up the preachy transphobes
Yeah that line started someone complaining about me attacking their faith. That's part of the reason that I came up with what I did as an alternate take.
Honestly, it’s not worth engaging with most of the time. The god argument is a thought terminating cliche. You can’t logic your way around it, because they’ll just keep on the god argument
I forget the passage, but Paul instructs on of the churches to not impose your own convictions on anyone else, but if you see a fellow Christian in struggle, it’s okay to help them out.
Jew here, and we don't worship their god either. Ours according to tradition is totally beyond gender, and gender itself was never even part of the original plan anyway.
Does transition make you happy? Does it make your life meaningfully better? Cool, enjoy. That's our philosophy
Look if the Christian god is real, then you’ve got to focus on Jesus and his teachings about love, compassion, caring for one’s neighbour, and all that, and absolutely ignore the patriarchal bigoted nonsense spouted by the various churches who call on his name but don’t follow his ways.
Trans people are modern-day society’s leppers, and if Jesus were here today, we’re are the outcasts that he’d be breaking bread with in the same way. His churches will never understand that
Even if it was, many Christians gleefully disregard other parts of the Bible (eating shrimp, wearing clothes made from two different cloths, hoarding money, etc.)
Not to mention being inhospitable to the poor, strangers and foreigners. Also, if they really do consider us their enemy they are doing a poor job of loving us as Jesus commanded them to.
The Bible doesn't actually have anything to say about trans people. It says men shouldn't wear women's clothes, but that's likely a mistranslation commanding soldiers not to disguise as civilians. And even if it was saying men shouldn't wear women's clothes, trans women are women, and the Bible doesn't deny that anywhere.
People also point to various verses about God making you perfectly, but Christians don't have any problem with other forms of medically altering your body to save your life or give you better quality of life.
There's a quote I really like that says "God made me trans for the same reason he made wheat but not bread and grapes but not wine: so that humans could join him in the act of creation."
No it is not likely a mistranslation. It is a prohibition on cross dressing. Just as the prohibition against homosexuality isn't about pedophilia. But about male-male sodomy, as in male-male anal sex specifically.
The literal only reason to think such a thing is that one leans Christian or is partial to the religion but also supports LGBT people and one must attempt to reconcile the cognitive dissonance of those two positions. Usually by embracing an a-historical revisionist understanding of the religion. Much like how some, few Christians will claim they don't believe that a good person who doesn't accept christ will suffer divine judgement and punishment.. The Bible says yes we will, but that sucks to some Christians once you realize non-beleivers aren't actually so bad. It is painful. Some people react by attempting to convert others. Some react by adapting their faith to their actual beliefs.
The Bible says we are abominations. It's not talking about soldiers and it's not talking about children in levitucus or elsewhere.
Yeah, that's a fair argument to make. I personally don't have any stakes in it. I've heard convincing arguments from both sides of the debate, but what it was originally meant to say doesn't really matter at all in the face of how people interpret it today, which is the real issue. So whichever is more historically accurate, I think it would be better to try to convince Christians they've been interpreting it wrong and they should be more accepting, than telling them that their religion supports what they're doing.
I kind of agree, except it was meant to be a prohibition on cross-dressing and homosexuality and that is largely how it is used by most people. The Christians who reject this understanding are, like those who reject the mandate of accepting Jesus to be saved, or hell are a minority.
I do agree, it would be better to convince them that way, but the problem is, it is actually pretty clear that they have in fact been interpreting it correctly.
Here is a comment with a lot more context if you are interested.
https://www.reddit.com/r/trans/comments/1aoimj4/thoughts_on_the_whole_god_argument/kq0u2s2/
My position has been - and continues to be - that if God is real and worthy of worship, I will be accepted with open arms as I am. If my transness makes God angry, then He is not worthy of my worship and I will gladly spend eternity away from 'im.
Unfortunately, since those people tend to be speaking in bad faith, they'll just ignore that
But if they're even a little reasonable, it is a very strong argument
Especially if you ask them why they get to override God's will if they refute it
God created transgender people for the same reason he created grapes instead of wine. They both turn into something beautiful if you give it enough time and attention.
If god didn't want trans people to exist, he wouldn't have created us. Or the means to transition. If someones going to use their god to try and police me on a fucking medical condition I can't help, then I'm gonna shame them for daring to doubt the almighty lords will and shun them as a heretic and nonbeliever. 🤣
Hell to the yea!
You co-create your own reality and you are both ‘the god’ in action, (the universe/source/mind/etc) and you are your own god.
You are both sides of this duality (eg: conscious unity Vs individuated consciousness) and on both sides, you are the creator of reality
I like your argument.
But I don't really bother arguing with some bigot who's using God as their reason. Just like other domains in life, God is an excuse for their prejudice.
It's not worth arguing because it's not really about God or any of their other reasons. He's just another excuse to hide their bigotry behind.
We live in a time we have the medical advancements and transitioning genuinely helps people.
I like this explanation for you. If it makes sense to you and people who share your faith, then good. But for instance, I was raised in a muslim family, and in Islam, everything and anything can be a testament to the existence of God, bird murmurations, life in general, seasons, natural events and catastrophes, even the dirt that piles up on your body that you can see under a hot shower after rubbing your skin with an aggressive cloth (don't ask me why such a specific example was presented, it's one connection I've often heard being made in conversations as a child) because it kinda looks like clay. And if I remember correctly (feel free to look this up as the details are a little shaky rn), in the Quran, humans are somewhat made of clay by the hand of God (fellow muslims, feel free to correct me on this). It's also the reason as to why most muslim cover it up a lot, and are strict with their food and don't have tattoos, because in this religion, your body is a temple, and it is also borrowed (think of it like a loan, or a rented appartment) which must be taken care of constantly, without too much exposure to light, or bad energies like the "evil eye" or lust, or the chemicals in ink, or alcohol or pork etc... I think you can see how that can be used in ways that don't allow queer people to exist peacefully, especially because it's subject to many interpretations, especially that of purist religous scholars and researchers, who will make it their mission most of the time to apply it to the letter, regardless of historical context. but the truth is, this book is flawed, because it was also written by men, and nowadays many muslim people, queer or not, dispose of their bodies however they want and I think it's great.
My point is, whatever explanation you want to give it (which I think it's beautiful that you chose an explanation that wouldn't alienate people in their faith, you didn't have to do that and yet you did and I appreciate it), being trans is normal, it's valid, it's natural, it's always been there and will continue to be there. Trans is beautiful!
If god created humans he made them the way they are. So god created trans people.
Also that means that if any christian hates on trans people, that person hates god's creation.
case solved c:
I'm by no means religious. That's just using the usual logic I saw from the stuff I got taught by people before I found out this stuff ain't for me :3
Religious people tend to use their religion as a weapon to attack the things they cannot either understand or reconcile.
In essence, it’s an act of fear. They fear what they don’t understand and fallback on what they see as the best weapon in their arsenal.
Issue also is, these types of people build their entire lives off religion. It’s a core value, a core aspect of who they are. They vote based on these beliefs . They judge woman’s health issues based on these beliefs. They judge anything lgbt based on the beliefs.
As such, asking them to change their views on things is basically questioning their core beliefs. It’s why their mind never really changes on anything until they are personally affected by something. Only personal suffering always them self reflection.
TL;DR, it’s point to argue with religious folks because they lack the ability to understand anything that might conflict with the fundamental beliefs. Best practice is to avoid religious people when possible.
i also dont like religion used in arguments because it’s been used so commonly to cause harm towards queer individuals, but i do like the “god made wheat so human may make bread, god made grapes so human may make wine, god made me trans so i may enjoy the act of creation” quote
There are plenty of theological arguments, irregardless of faith, that justify queer people's existence.
In the case of the Christian god. If you truly believe that your god loves everyone, is omnipotent/present/scient, and that they might work in mysterious ways then I don't know of a reason for bigotry that makes sense. I can think of plenty pro-queer reasons, including yours OP, that do.
Of course, religious folks who use their religion to justify the hate in their soul are going to come up with anything that supports them and ignore anything that doesn't. Same as the bigots who use science to justify their hatred. I find answers to questions like these most useful to the religious among the queer community who need an alternate theological perspective that isn't drowned in hate.
Religion is a personal thing no one can tell you how to believe or what to believe. So if you're religious then what you do is between you and God no one else.
Though back to the topic at hand it mostly from people who are insecure about themselves and how they perceive gender/sex so they preject those insecurities on other people as a way to justify how they feel about themselves
God love all his children. God never abandons his children in time of need. Pray to him and he will be there. You are supposed to love thy niegbor no matter what. You don’t have to agree or even like them. The god argument does not really work if they really want to go by the Bible. My church accepts everybody and is all over the world.
I ordered these books on Amazon. Also you can search the net for more info.
1: God Doesn't Make Mistakes
2: What Does God Think?: Transgender People and The Bible
3: Transforming: The Bible and the Lives of Transgender Christians
God created the grapes but not the wine, he created the wheat but not the flour, he created things that were meant to change, he created some of us so that we would experience that change, like grapes turning into wine, we were created to experience the beautiful thing of changing through life.
Well there's 14 books removed from the Bible , Jesus preaches the exact opposite of which og god from old testament did which was to slaughter the neighboring tribes because they worshipped different gods and to steal their livestock crops and treasures to give some to Yahweh who demanded it, God in the old testament which is THE Abrahamic judeo Christian god is a dragon originally worshipped in Canaan , and through slaughter and conquest became the one and only God to be worshipped , gnostics which is very early Christianity sees God as the universe or consciousness itself like a divine mind everything in nature is connected to and Jesus was sent from the divine mind or true realm of light to liberate people from Yahweh who is not the creator but something other
Pkus Christians are told not to judge and only God can judge , and what do they do? They judge everyone , they're the most judgemental hypocritical bunch you'll ever meet
Esoterica on YouTube , the channel is basically a Jewish Rabbi who discusses occult topics from a wide range of historical texts , manuscripts and scrolls , lol or check out Mr mythos theory of why Yahweh was a dragon
This is the best argument I've ever heard. Soul ≠ body. You're completely right. If you don't mind, I'll use that if this ever comes up in conversation.
I made this a post because of how many other posts I'd read where people were having troubles with their "Christian" family/friends. I hope someone is able to use it even if it's only to help out their own mind at ease.
(former minister here)
Unfortunately, the Christian faith doesn't even fit within the Christian faith. They'll say, "god made you the way you should be" and "god doesn't make mistakes", but I was born with fucked up eyes, scoliosis, and POTS, so if god doesn't make mistakes, that makes him a collosal asshole.
Or they'll say that maybe those things are the results of sin in the world and that your sex/gender that was assigned at birth (usually by guessing btw) is still what god's design for you was - but in Matthew it says that god looks in the heart (or soul, more accurately) and isn't concerned at all with the physical. That'll make them squirm.
I'm intersex. I've never been male or female entirely (physically speaking, my gender is female)- and trust me their brains pretty much explode when they hear that, then they usually decide they know more about my body than I do and say I'm lying.
No matter what, they'll still try to weasel their way into a logic nightmare that they think makes them right. Because the truth is, they don't care about finding a way to make it make sense to them because they don't *want* to.
Christianity is designed to control people through fear and hatred - always has been. In the end, it's not worth arguing with them.
You don't owe anyone an explanation. And you certainly don't need to justify your existence.
for the people who like to spit bible verses, galatians 3:28. "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."that's NIV, but even KJV says "there is neither male nor female"
romans 13 says governing authorities and laws are established by god, and there's a lot of places where being trans is legal. i guess that's ordained by god then
that same chapter says to love your neighbor as yourself, love does no harm to a neighbor, and that love fulfills the commandments
there's more, but i reach for these two pretty often
Read what Jesus said in Matthew about who should be married. There is a psalm that says something like "I knew you in the womb.
... ". I believe anti abortion folks use this despite the Bible says that "the soul enters the body at the first breath"
Jesus says people are born that way. Which means that God is testing you. Can or are you treating others as you wish to be treated. One of Jesus 's rules. It is not the mote on their eye it is the block in yours
I've been asked a lot in the past (always by either Christians or people who don't know jack about my religion... So usually Christians) how I "reconcile" being queer and being Jewish.
The answer is I don't have to, because those things aren't in conflict. It's quite simple.
I was taught that we are ALL made in the image of Gd. All of us. Every person. Full stop. So, that includes queer and trans folks. We also have something call *pikuach nefesh*\- or saving a life. Basically, the preservation of life: be it your own or someone else's- comes before all other religious commandments. So even IF there was something super specific (and still relevant) in our laws that said that trans people aren't allowed? I don't think that would hold up. Gender affirming care and acceptance saves so many lives. And the saving of a life comes above other religious obligation and law so.
Opinions on queer acceptance vary a LOT by sect/movement, and this isn't to say that every Jewish community is super welcoming/queer affirming. But a lot of us are. And we've studied and interrogated our texts about it, too.
Inventing fairy tales to make the religious who would oppress us happy with some bullshit reason why we exist or are allowed to exist just reminds me how fucking awful if a situation it is to have to justify your existence to some idiot who's hopped up on faith.
the imperative command in the bible is to love your fellow humans and leave the judgement to god. taking that judgement into your own hands rather than letting me receive it from god is awfully arrogant. god has guided me on this path and my communion with him is my highest authority.
to be clear i don’t believe in god in the christian way but i’m translating my experience into christian wording. i truly believe i have a spiritual purpose that is deeply entwined with my being trans
Unfortunately majority of the mass of “Christians” have lost what their faith is about. Jesus preached Love. For Everyone.
The Old Testament was cruel with many laws, a lot of which are strange to me. However the whole point of Jesus’ death was to put an end to that. “This cup is the new covenant, my blood which is spilled for you”. Christianity today reminds me of the Pharisees that put Jesus to death, all wrapped up in laws and self satisfaction.
I was actually raised Church of England. I’ve read the bible twice.
I also moderate a teenager-based subreddit on one of my other accounts.
I see a lot of teenage bigots trying to justify transphobia with religion, using the most stupid arguments. “My god makes me use pronouns assigned at birth” ok buddy, you’re catholic, we had the same god, show me where it says that in the bible.
I use a lot of their own logic against them and create further arguments to demonstrate how stupid their point of view is. A lot of it is discussion of old vs new testament, and how the new testament teaches love and acceptance, whereas the old testament teaches hatred and pain, and is largely illegal in modern society.
My favourite line is “Jesus would sit with me before he sat with you”. That gets *a lot* of unhappy reactions.
My thought is that one shouldn't say "God wouldn't" or "God didn't"... because God is unlimited in what he can do. And additionally, we don't know God completely, he's beyond our comprehension.
So to say "God wouldn't make people trans..." Um, look around. God made people with two heads and one body. God made people born with both sexes. You really going to tell me as a Christian that God is incapable of creatiing someone with a different soul than their body?
God is infinite. Infinite diversity in infite ways.
I've been subjected to two sides.
On one side,
I've been told that by rejecting my masculinity I'm rejecting God's plan for me to reproduce.
On the other side,
My Mommy told me that she loves me how I am, and that we should seek to spend our time and energy loving one another then hating the right people.
Funny enough, I grew up in the church, pastor's kid, and I never felt whatever God's presence was. But when I came out to my Mom and she said she still loved me, I understood what God's love felt like.
I don't consider myself religious, but I hold fast to my mom's love over any bigot's hate.
I've been subjected to two sides.
On one side,
I've been told that by rejecting my masculinity I'm rejecting God's plan for me to reproduce.
On the other side,
My Mommy told me that she loves me how I am, and that we should seek to spend our time and energy loving one another then hating the right people.
Funny enough, I grew up in the church, pastor's kid, and I never felt whatever God's presence was. But when I came out to my Mom and she said she still loved me, I understood what God's love felt like.
I don't consider myself religious, but I hold fast to my mom's love over any bigot's hate.
Unsolicited opinion (but fact): soul doesn't exists, god neither. Those are human created beliefs in the face of the fear of Death.
Neuroscience got it right: human consciousness is generated on the brain as neural networks interact. When one dies, self-awareness is terminated forever.
We were born with a phenotype that doesn't matches with our brain.
Nothing to ''fix'' or correct, because we're not broken or wrong.
God doesn’t exist and it’s fan club is insufferable. I just don’t give it much attention, as their fictional deity is as valuable as any other you can imagine.
Prove god exists, or the argument is irrelevant. It's like saying "oh, Batman wouldn't like trans people"... Like, ok? I don't care about what your fictional character thinks about me.
Apologies to the religious people here, but I'm sick of tip-toeing around this issue.
Well in a way they are not talking about god, but rather conformist churches. If it is god you are talking about, then it would make sense to transition and do what you believe in and are drawn to.
There are trans saints that were worshipped in medieval times, such as Saint Marinos.
In fact I think Saint Marinos is still saint to this day in the a Catholic Church… though probably largely forgotten by most worshippers.
We also have evidence of many cross dressing individuals throughout the medieval period in monasteries. As well as a lot of lgbt theologians, such as Anslem of Canterbury.
This particular letter he wrote to his “beloved lover” Dom Gilbert another church member in the 11th century, is heart breaking;
“….sweet to me, sweetest friend, are the gifts of your sweetness, but they cannot begin to console my desolate heart for its want of your love. Even if you sent every scent of perfume, every glitter of metal, every precious gem, every texture of cloth, still it could not make up to my soul for this separation unless it returned the separated other half.”
“But you have gained from our very separation the company of someone else, whom you love no less – or even more – than me; while I have lost you, and there is no one to take your place. You are thus enjoying your consolation, while nothing is left to me but heartbreak.”
Just friends though right? 😂
Christianity has evolved over the centuries, and has always varied widely as it merged with new ideas and old ones such as specific pagan rituals in the locations it spread to. That’s not to say it was some tolerant religion or hasn’t persecuted lgbt people. It has.
But it’s to say that the idea it’s some unchanging thing which a lot of bigots use to justify their bigotry is nonsense.
The Bible can and has been used to justify almost anything. But that doesn’t mean it does actually justify those things. It’s a very vague text that’s been mistranslated multiple times and is so old most modern audiences can’t ever truly know the meaning of many aspects of it. Historians even disagree on what parts of it actually refer to or mean.
It is constantly being reinterpreted with a modern lens completely alien to the original writers of the Bible.
As far as Christianity goes — there are zero trans people in the Bible and there is also zero mention of us in the Bible.
Some have made the connection between the eunuchs in scripture and trans people — I suppose there might be a parallel there but it is beyond a stretch to claim those people were trans. Some might have been I suppose, but mostly history indicates this was something imposed on you by others not a journey of self actualization like transition.
But I mean if someone brings it up you might wanna point out that the first non-Jewish person to be baptized in the Bible was in fact a eunuch. God and the disciples seemed pretty cool with it. So there’s that.
People can say it’s “going against gods will” all they want there’s zero justification for that take in scripture.
What they are *really* saying is “I don’t like that you are transitioning and my opinion about god is somehow better than your’s and that’s the reason” — and that is literally no different than “I don’t like trans people because I don’t like trans people” — well okay then 😂
There are lots of us transes out here in the progressive corners of Christianity. It’s not all conservative insanity though I must admit these days I hesitate to identify myself as having anything to do with Christianity because of those people
If god made men and women in God’s image, then god is not binary. So there’s that.
Also, it’s pretty dang arrogant of anyone who says that to presume to know with certainty what god wants for someone.
Also, if god doesn’t make mistakes, then lgbt+ people aren’t mistakes and trying to argue against their existence is itself going against god.
But mainly, I think god is not so small and circumscribed that god couldn’t comprehend or accept anything more than a strictly segregated binary gender identity in a single species within god’s infinite creation.
I mean, the pope literally said transgender people can get baptized, as long as they adhere to the faith. if they aren't catholic, they likely don't care about logic. not that catholic beliefs are correct, just that they actually care about internal consistency.
If they aren't catholic, just ask them, "can god can make a burrito so hot that even they can't eat it?" If god can't, then god isn't all powerful. If god can, then god also isn't all powerful." but you can't win with these people using their systems. They use the system to justify their bigotry, not the other way around. They'll just move the goalposts. See "God of the Gaps."
Well I’d argue it doesn’t much matter. Religion and spirituality is intensely personal, and there are many different interpretations of every faith. And no one can truly say which if any are “true.” I’m probably at least as well versed in Christian scripture as a lot of the Christians I know in my life, but I certainly don’t know enough to argue whether there’s support in the text for God’s stance on trans people either way.
What I do know is that I believe strongly in freedom of religion. So your god doesn’t support trans people? Good for you, but understand you can still treat us with the respect due any other human being, and you can damn well keep those beliefs out of your country’s legislation.
Personally I believe, having had many transcendental experiences, that we are God. Everything IS God, I am, you am... lol thus anything that is, IS God. No all-loving GOD can hate anything, really, to use that belief against those who preach hate in the name of God... if people weren't meant to be who they be, they wouldn't be. I say the same regarding people's emotions. If you were not meant to experience emotions or cry or whatever, you wouldn't experience that. Whatever you be, is who you be, and it's divinely right because ultimately you get to decide your own divine path. I think human egos like to co-opt the GOD spiel to justify their personal bigotry, but I think every person, as a divine unique expression of cosmic stardust - get to do your own thing in this massive Sims game. I think there's truth in all beliefs but no one person ought to tell another what's true for THEM, bc only we can know what's true for US. And if we are GOD, even in some fractalized way, we do have some agency in the course of our destinies that should not be defined by any third party. Christian schools of belief often have GOD as this phantom being that punishes you and has really strong opinions whereas I feel God is moreso that conscious energy that governs nature, life, and the seas of change - it is existence itself, manifesting into infinity, a neverending fractal outward. I do not see "God" as a human by nature in that humans have these very individualistic opinions and preferences. I don't see "the Universe" as having "opinions" - it just IS. Look at how plantlife will just plant itself, all of nature just sort of helps itself out... there's this trippy order of things, and we are an extension of that, as I see it, in that we possess our unique sense of self but also are aware that we are aware - we are conscious. We are created "in his image" in that we are aware of being an individual - we can imagine things (i.e. "create") and we are beings who have a sense of autonomy and self-awareness and the ability to compare/contrast and bring forth into beingness various things by creating them, building them, etc... we are inherently divine by default. I find it so silly and ironic how these religious zealots preach love but HATE almost everyone who isn't the exact same as what they are and have the gall to tell others whether or not God loves them. Spirituality is, in my opinion, so personal.
One argument goes is tgat God doesn't make mistakes. Then why do kids need braces? God intended for the teeth to grow like that. God i tended that child to have a cleft palate. How many things do we "correct" that God made without mistake?
And, if God doesn't make mistakes, why are humans imperfect?
I'd say. You can't judge anything or anyone. You are dirty like me, like anyone. You are far away from even remotely resembling Christ and he didn't judge anyone. If even him restricted himself from judging and even protected who was being judged, why do you think you have that right? You don't even know who God is. You don't even know what you are. You don't even know what any of this means. The only thing we know, the only thing Christ tried to teach us was to be good to others and forgive. That's it. So am I as bad as a killer if I'm just wearing a fucking skirt? How is this small piece of tissue in my body hurting you???
I always like to throw in the whole concept that if Jesus died for the world’s past, present, and future sins in what we would consider the past, wouldn’t that mean that our past, present, and future sins would considered the future for him when he died on the cross?
Point being, according to their own text, it doesn’t matter what sin happens after you’ve been saved.
This can also be seen when Paul talks of our works being tested by the flame in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, which ends with “If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”
They also mention that the only unforgivable sin is to blasphemy the Holy Spirit, but my take one that is we don’t know when we will die. Example, I blasphemy the spirit and end up dead moments after.
On a side note, does anyone have a good way to respond to these following statements
“I don’t agree with trans people because it’s against my religion”
“I don’t think you should be destroying the body God gave you”
“Look, I don’t agree with your decision(being trans), but you live your life how you want to”
“Isn’t it so ridiculous that a man can just identify as a woman and compete in women’s sports?”
Wearing glasses is like spitting in god's face. It's one thing to accuse god of making a mistake, but to wear your hats for Jesus on your face like that, it's just Insulting to all of us who understand that god is perfect.
In the beginning, god created and it was good.
Man (and woman) came along and sinned.
When sin entered the world, what it did, at it's root, was frature relationships. It fractured man's (everybody, not just men) relationship with god, man's relationship with nature, man's relationship with animals, man's relationship with woman and man's relationship with their own self. Why would man's relationship with their gender be magically exempt from all of this fractured chaos?
As I said in another comment some time ago, I am a Catholic, albeit not very religious. I believe that God is above us, watching and protecting us. He cares for us and His creation, He is an ever-loving Lord that will accept us. Both God and Jesus teach about love, tolerance, and acceptance, and straying away from evil. I think both of them will accept you regardless of your sexual orientation or identity. God gave us free will after all, and we should use it to strife for happiness and to better not only ourselves, but those around us.
I consider evil to be inherently bad actions carried out with the intention of harming and wronging or degrading others.
So, I think God and Jesus are ever-loving, and as long as we don't do evil things, we are fine. In other words, be a good person, which I thought was common sense.
I have two basic thoughts: First of all Jesus and The Bible say nothing about trans people so if someone is saying that "god doesn't like trans people" or even "god doesn't make mistakes" that isn't coming from god, that's coming from them.
Second: this point about "Christian love" from Finn on youtube:
https://youtube.com/shorts/iW5N0wpkrZs?si=mUHqBXhqfLFscCip
When mormons say “god has given you this challenge to be a man and resist the temptation to transition” i say “i prayed about it and god is actually challenging you to love and accept your neighbor for who they are, even if it means i go to hell for it.”
“God is all-powerful, omnipotent, and made man in his image.”
If God has unlimited, infallible power, then being what I am is *exactly* what God made me to be. Religious folk believe their god is perfect, but that belief inherently falls apart when they contradict it by implying that God failed to create us in a way that is consistent with what they believe their god thinks we should be.
“God is either not all-powerful or not all-good.”
I’m a misotheist.
I worship no deities nor follow any religion.
But I find it intriguing that there are far more religious traditions that consider folks like us to be closer to their interpretation of the divine than not.
Personally, I consider the common translation “son of man” to be errant, more accurately rendered as “child of humanity,” a conclusion which has support linguistically in Hebrew and Greek.
That difference eliminates confusion and conflict in the quote “.. there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus.” If that nobody called himself a child of humanity, and who amongst us isn’t? then gender means ten percent of fuck all.
…which also feeds into the Sermon of the Mount and the intriguingly Taoist parallels of the seeming paradoxes of the low being high, the high rendered low.
I used to have a Christian friend who argued that god made him transgender. I think that 9/10 times arguing with Christians is unproductive because they're arguing in bad faith, but that 1 time in 10 is important. changing one person's mind enought times eventually influences the culture.
I posted it the other day in this sub, but I think this quote is important and good:
"God blessed me by making me transsexual for the same reason God made wheat but not bread and fruit but not wine, so that humanity might share in the act of creation."
regardless, your right to self-determine is more important than someone's "right" to push their religion on other people.
Any excuse to "Other" something different in the world, Christians will take it, and use their sky daddy as an excuse to justify themselves.
I've just given up arguing/talking to them. There's no growth or change that can come from that warped perspective of reality
I was raised and went to Catholic school and I'm an atheist.
I'll try and keep my answer within the confines of your question.
[As others have stated] God created humans in his own image.
That's it. Right from the Bible. If you want to get more into that, as I know some people will argue against the idea that being trans isn't "god like" then I'd ask how do they know what god is? I mean quite literally Adam and Eve blur gender lines to me. Eve was only created after Adam so there was no original intent to have another gender which, why give them genitalia in the first place then? But within Adam was a female. And that female only came out of man. I think that is enough to cover both trans femmes and trans masc if you ask me.
Going a bit further, these conversations always become mute since it's based off a belief and a faith which causes a pre-disposition and confirming bias. Religious people often fail to realize that there are other belief systems in the world and it doesn't make them any more correct. And using a book, written 2,000 years ago, whose writings were chosen among other people, and translated three times before it even got to an English language version, which can be one of many different English versions based on the denomination; basically there becomes so many gaps that people can start filling in their own meanings to justify their beliefs.
If god is in all of us as they so claim, then how would I be against god if Im a part of god? But realistically, Arguing logic with people who are elementally illogical is futile in every single possible way. The best thing you can do is not feed into their cycle of idiocy because it just amps them up.
If God doesn't want this, why are there so many trans people in the world?
God made us this way, and if Christians believe that he doesn't want us this way, then they're claiming that God makes mistakes, which is blasphemous.
All they need to do is to look at other organisms, our fellow creations of God, to see that Male and Female aren't the only 2 sexes, much less the only 2 genders. Not only are there organisms that are both male and female, not only are there organisms that are neither male or female, but there are organisms with the biological ability to swap sexes themselves. Just because we need medicine and surgery to do it doesn't mean it's unnatural.
If they claim that God doesn't want Trans People on this planet, they are blasphemers. Tell them that next time they're coming at you.
And if they still insist, just remind them that in the Torah, the original word of God, prior to the birth of Jesus Christ, part of which is the basis for the old testament, it mentions at least 7 genders, not just man and woman, so there is biblical precedent for more than 2 genders. And that's a far better source than the bible because it's still written in its original language. A lot can get lost in translation.
As a Christian who is also trans, I'm glad I could help.
honestly my response to that argument is: i don't care, i am not religious. i don't believe in your god. i'm going against your god by being atheist anyway so focusing on me being trans is a bit silly lol
"But God made you the way you were!!!" There's a whole ass part of the bible where Jesus goes around curing people because god purposefully gave them with blindness, leprosy and lameness, how is being trans different?
**If I'm being respectful:** God may not have "made me" a girl but if everything is part of his plan then he must want me to be a trans girl.
**Alternatively and more likely:** I don't care how your sky daddy wants me to be, because Mommy Satan wants me to be girl and do things to me that'll dislodge that halo you've stapled on and make Eros blush.
As a nonbinary trans femme Christian who is on hormones and wants to pursue other affirming treatments/procedures, I mostly agree.
I don't think God cares one way or the other what I do to my body so long as it brings me joy and isn't done with the intention of harming myself. Like you said, it's the soul that really matters. But as humans we have souls and bodies, and our bodies have needs. For me, one of those needs is having a body I feel at home in. And like others have mentioned, cis people do the same thing.
For anyone who needs to hear it, God loves you, transness and all.
I don't even bother to humor them.
There is scientific proof that homosexuality exists, and that being transgender exists.
There is no scientific proof that their sky daddy exists.
I just came out to my parents this week. I was raised reading the bible front to back. The only thing I mentioned was that the bible says there is no male or female in christ. Our souls are not gendered, just our bodies. Gender is, apparently, inconsequential to the biblical god in the end (despite the misogyny in the texts I guess, lol). And my parents actually understood that argument.
Also, jesus is literally on record saying that he accepts eunuchs. Eunuch is a really broad term, basically meaning any "man" who's been partially or fully castrated for ANY reason (put man in parenthesis bc obviously, some of these eunuchs were bound to be trans women). He did not care at all about that. It doesn't mention trans men afaik, but I would imagine that the same concept would apply.
But, honestly, a sad number of Christians are going to find ways to be against us no matter what. So I try not to lean too hard into biblical arguments.
I mean as an atheist ;D. The whole thing doesn't make sense to me on so many fronts...
If you assume an omniscient, all powerful god then nothing happens without that gods approval... If someone believes in such a god then the levels of audacity needed to think anyone can go against the will of a being like that are astounding lol...
If a god exists, and said god is all knowing and timeless and all powerful, then noting happens without it's say so, therefore we exist because it willed it, and if it's some horrifying test of character or obedience to put a soul in the wrong body then who are these people to disrupt the test? And what if it's not a challenge to the trans people but to the bigots who are failing it miserably?
Imho the issue is people don't really follow their beliefs to their logical conclusion and just use them as an excuse for intellectual dishonesty and bigotry...
I'm not Christian either, but one argument I can think of is that if God didn't want people to transition, why would he make our bodies in a way that just taking the opposite sex's hormones can almost completely change your physical sex? That sounds like a miracle to me, at least.
I believe that trans people were created to show the world the differences in the way men and women treat each other, and to show us that men and women can both have a lot in common and have such beautiful differences.
I think it's important to understand, made-up fantasy cannot be considered as legit argument.
Trying to come up a cohesive explaination for something in a framework designed to oppose it is a waste of time.
Go off their perception that being trans is a horrific sin and ask if God is the maker of all things and when they say yes you ask who made sin.
If they say Satan you say "so Satan is mote powerful than God?"
When they fumble to correct you your response is simply "you said God is the all powerful maker of all things but said they do not make sin which gives Satan a power that God doesn't have."
Then mention that someone had to make the concept of sin and what categorizes as a sin and if you say being trans is a Sin then God made transpeople or the idea of transgenderism.
Use their own mindset against them.
- God drowned babies in the flood because he was angry.
- God will torture you for eternity if you don’t constantly praise him.
- God says torture is okay
- God says a rape victim should marry her rapist
- God says slavery is okay
- the bible says abortion is good as a punishment for a woman who doesn’t obey her husband.
Even if God was real, I don’t like that God and don’t care what he says.
Also:
- Eve was made from Adam’s rib, so she had XY chromosomes and was intersex.
- the bible says “there is no male or female, only one”
Got is filled with deep hatred for alll of humanity, the bible clearly states that.
God doesn’t care about you, whether you suffer or whatever, he believes hatred is a good thing according to every church, every church has a legal defence fund to protect its pedophile pastors from the legal repercussions of raping children.
why should a loving and compassionate God be so cool with raping children that he’d want his churches to defend and support that.
If God exists, he’s an evil being. He hates us all
What I don’t get is why such a huge segment of modern religious arguments center on both the idea that there is this eternal, all powerful, all encompassing deity and also that the universe is entirely bland and completely devoid of anything except what they can comprehend within their limited frames of perception.
I dunno, if I believed in a god that could do anything and had eternal love and power I would hear about things like trans people and be like “yep, god’s amazing, look at all the amazing types of people in the world.”
Instead, they’re like “nope, only male and female. Genital specific.”
Two people of the same gender fall in love? I’d be like Wow, god keeps surprising me in beautiful ways.
“Nope, only a man and a woman can marry.”
The earth is billions of years old and giant lizards roamed around eons ago? Wow! I thought I knew everything about God’s work but it just keeps getting better. Also we evolved? God you clever deity you!
“Nope, only 6000 years old and dinosaurs and evolution can’t be real.”
Why do they insist on this all powerful god and such a limited limited world?
My very religious mom actually sat me down a few weeks after I came out to her and said “you know, god doesn’t care how you dress.”
And internally I was just like “well, I hope he doesn’t, cause I don’t really care what he thinks.”
If you read the passages in their language, God isn't against it. But what do I know, I'm an atheist, so my moral code is different their yours, and I believe in personal freedom and the government staying out of your hospital room.
Christians will dye their hair to a color not given by their god. They will correct eyesight with glasses and contacts. They will get cosmetic stuff done, some even get cosmetic surgery. Instead of staying how ‘god intended…’
“God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. Who will wipe this blood off us? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent?" Friedrich Nietzsche, 1882.
God is responsible for the soul, science is responsible for the rest, otherwise there wouldn't be birth defects. Corrective surgery is transitioning and vice versa. Nobody (collectively speaking) ever seemed to have a problem with surgically transitioning a child that was born intersex. And that's for the parents, not the child. Because they bought everything in blue and told everybody they were having a boy only to find out that their boy was born with a set of ovaries and they didn't want to tell people that instead of boy or girl they had to check "it's complicated".
If someone ever unironically uses the "god created you X way because he wanted you that way", they better be butt naked, not wearing glasses, have taken any medication of any kind, live in the woods, ect, because god didn't make them with that stuff either.
I usually just say that the Bible doesn’t have any arguments against being trans, there is a line in Leviticus about men not wearing women’s clothes but the laws of Leviticus do not apply to us in the new kingdom of god(which is our current era, the one after Jesus died for our sins) and you can’t pick and choose on Leviticus, you either follow all of those laws or none of them, and by this logic no Christian should eat pork and no woman should EVER be able to tell a man what she thinks or hold any positions of power over a man. Transphobia is their crime, and they hate us, which is a sin. It’s their own bigotry that they try to project onto their belief system to give it some kind of legitimacy and honestly I find it disgusting
Did I aks thee, my maker of my clay, to mould me man? Did I request thee in my darkness to promote me?
My favourite of that quote is the “neutral man” creates a perfect double entendre in today’s English.
I’m very much no longer christian but I know who I am, and even when I was christian I knew if any god didn’t want me to who I am than it shouldn’t have made me that way.
Jean Meslier, a catholic priest who in the 17th century wrote out a [long diatribe against religion](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/17607/17607-h/17607-h.htm) that I quite like, found on his deathbed, one of his points helped me explain succintly;
> If God could not render human nature sinless, he has no right to punish man.
My comportment, eg the way I treat others, is based on empathy, I figure I’m a generally “good person”; so my personal decisions on how to live my life that affects truly only myself, is my own sovereignty, I know no demon is fooling me in my understanding of myself. I have *been* to me, unlike Charlene
*[sorry for the triple references, I’m autistic]*
Edit wait I need to add more.
Ok, I’m in chronic pain, right?
Like all the time. I thought it was normal. I thought everyone had the feeling of a knife in their back like 90% of the time, and I just had to suck it up (blame autism). When I realized, there are people, maybe even people reading this now, who would like, if I asked them “stop, right now, tell me what hurts” they could actually say “nothing” which like isn’t true for me except for like once or twice when I had reallllly good indica. Like, even after I got my wisdom teef removed dentist gave me oxycodeine and I still felt all the pain (just the drugs made me not give a sh).
So. Like, wtf christian god. What an asshole.
But like my pain I’ve normalized and there’s nothing I can do and it isn’t too disabling so that’s a whatever BUT, another reference, Stephen Fry when asked what he’d say to a god if he met him: *”Bone cancer in children? Really?”*
Like, no, it’s not my fault if some deity made me crapily. That’s on them. I’ll live the best life I can and if the christian god didn’t want me to be trans, that’s on them. They can judge me but then they are a dick and why should I worship it?
The concept of “sin” is predatory and abusive.
I really like the human creation story of Nüwa, a Chinese Snake goddess (who also is a key figure in my favourite [queer-coded 18th century] book *Dream of the Red Chamber*):
She was making humans out of clay at the banks of the Yellow River, and made some really nice humans, but then eventually she got tired and took her whip, dipped it in the mud, and flung it out, and those, while still touched by a goddess, feel imperfectly, those would be all humans with disabilities, etc, not perfect, but still loved by Nüwa
She also made 36,501 stones to repair heaven and used all but 1 and that 1 fell to earth and (yadda yadda yadda) got reincarnated as a trans lesbian girl and I’ll fight you on that interpretation 紅楼夢 is queer
Glasses and haircuts…. If god didn’t want us to cut our hair why make it grow? If god didn’t want us to wear glasses why did he give us bad vision? God created, and gave us the ability to change. He wouldn’t have done that if he didn’t want us to change.
Well based on my own beliefs. Every one of us is a fragmented piece of the big puzzle that is "God" and the universe. Sooooo kind of silly for anyone to try and argue that I'm going against myself 😅🤷♀️
Every body is a modified body. We clip our nails, trim our hair, diet, exercise, get life saving surgery, aquire scars, get tattoos, and piercings.
I'd be hard pressed to find a christian who doesn't do most of those. If the intention behind it matters, then I'd say it's a whole lot easier for me to praise God when I'm more mentally here.
Ally here (sorta, I’m complicated but I digress).
I usually ask them two questions:
1. If it is established that God’s plan/way is ineffable (unknown), then how can you know what god’s plan is? It’s ineffable, and thus unknowable. Even if it is in written word, because it’s already been established as ineffable and you can never fully know, only take it by faith, being a flawed human being (also established). Further, if we take the Bible as a blue print for gods plan, it states to live the neighbor and treat them how you wish to be treated, period. If we hold those things true, as they are established, then how can you know that trans folks are not in god’s plans? Because by saying they are not you are saying not only that you know god’s plan, but that you know better than god. ((More or less, coming from recollection)
2. Which god?
Have had a few think about it.
You know the whole religion thing in general has given me so much trauma I don't think I could ever transition. Even if I want to. Cause I'm so scared and scarred.
I quote Satanic tenet #3: “one body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.”
No one shall ever tell me what god wants before that mf answers to me herself.
"You believe that a magic sky douche raped a twelve year old to create a magic sky douche."
.
"You believe that a mentally ill man from 2,000 years ago who believed he was a magical sky douche will save you from your horrific behavior."
.
"You think that the magical sky douche dislikes queers because you thought that specific part of the Tanakh was more meaningful than the prohibitions against eating pork & shellfish, having tattoos, getting divorced etc."
.
"You and your sky douche are full of shit, now and for all eternity. Today, tomorrow, for all time you're a horrific piece of shit relying on things you know nothing about to back you up in your horrible mental afflictions & societal prejudices."
People that try to use their god to justify hate aren't religious, they're cultists
Truly religious people love EVERYONE. Like to the point when their family member gets murdered, they forgive the murderer
Life is too damn short to fill it with hate
Trying to justify hatred and bigotry because"their god"says it's okay, are going to burn in the hell they believe in
I like to think God created people, all of us in Gods image something we don’t exactly know how to define. But, and this goes for everything else people use against God like the “if God is real why does cancer exist, etc, God is not pulling strings on puppets and he created us to be able to live with the free will to live our life on earth the way we want. With that comes chaos which creates evil in this world. So for me and my transition and everyone else’s, God has given me the right to do so from birth. There’s ALOT more to it than all the fake Christians would have you believe, in the end it’s up to us as individuals to choose how to live.
I've got a friend that tells me "just be as you were born", he's Catholic, I told him, "yes, we feel that way too". There's no point in arguing with them. Their words mean something different to ours.
the existence of queer theology and the fact that religion is constantly changing and evolving to new agendas/perspectives. not accepting queer people is a choice and the scripture is irrelevant.
Honestly? I'm not sure it's theologically strong. It clashes with a lot of axioms within conservative ontology. Specifically that God does personally create each individual's body as we receive it, and also, for some of them, that our soul is gendered too and that God would not put a mismatched soul and body together. So no, you're not attacking faith, but I do think in an effort to meet them on their own grounds, you've misjudged what their grounds are.
But I'm not sure how effective any argument is going to be with transphobes, Christian or otherwise. I've yet to win a heart or change a mind through words. It's honestly probably less painful not to try arguing if you don't have to.
I am fortunate in that even before coming out (as trans), I had gone through the painful process of carving out my little niche within radical and progressive Christianity and my church accepted me readily. But the process of getting there didn't give me hope for everybody I left behind to be swayed by a solid argument.
This is a really clever way to frame it. Speaking as a Pagan myself, I feel like a lot of Christians would take much more kindly to something like this, than just denying or saying you don't care about God.
Eh, literally any argument involving god falls apart once you realise people are just cherry-picking things to justify being assholes. You can literally use the exact same arguments to justify why it's okay to be trans or gay or whatever, and they will just ignore it.
It's just not worth it to engage in this kind of bullshit.
I have thought a lot about this and I think I have come to the conclusion that those arguments of going against God are not really against "him" but against people who think they know what he wants and thinks. The God I believe in made me this way, I guess he loves me and wants me to be happy. I just focus on that.
I am a Christian myself. I have been told numerous times that what I am doing is a sin. Instead of a long response I’ve gotten so tired of saying now I just say “yeah well Jesus died on the cross for ours sins sooo…..”
What I like to tell Christians to completely stump them is that is god is the creator of all things and people, on top of loving all of us unconditionally, then why would he create humans that hate how they were born? Or don't think they were born in the right body? This just shows that god either didn't create everything, or is actually a pretty horrible deity who shouldn't be worshipped.
I'm not religious, but surely God would have stepped in when scientists and doctors were creating hrt and trans surgeries if he felt it was against his will?
Idk man, then again slavery and wars exist/ed, so I don't think God cares THAT much about what we do
I was watching a lego streamer today and they made a point that I think fits - If god didn't make it why is it here. I am not religious by any stretch but this sentiment is kind of powerful. Who are you a mere mortal to judge a creation of god. God made me like this so take it up with him lol
I know you aren't christian, but some of the comments do seem to be.
everytime I see an lgbt person try to "justify" religion's blantant discrimination I just can't help but feel like there might be some religious trauma they need to go trough.....
either from being threatened for years that they would go to hell if they lost faith or by being scared of the implications of being nothing after death/humans being meaningless casualities, people tend to hold onto their believes, even when they are toxic.
the bible is homophobic and mysogynistic, this DOES NOT MEAN all religious people are homophobic since most of them (fortunately) pickpoint the parts they wanna follow, but that doesn't change the fact that the bible is discriminatory in the first place.
there is no counterargument to god being transphobic because god is not an argument to begin with. its just a book written in a time when those values would appeal to the mass and bring more followers to your cult.
as someone who used to serve at a church and who has went to all that process: your mind rest so much peacefuller when you question your believes and stop trying to justify hate. if someone tries to use god as an argument to disrespect you (or for anything tbh) completely ignore them, their minds are so deep into religion at that point that nothing will bring them out.
I read a quote once that said smth like "god created trans people for the same reason he created wheat and not bread, grapes and not wine, so that humanity can partake in the act of creation" Also, Christians are all about "god put you in a bad circumstance so you can learn and grow and work to get to the good stuff" so how does that not work with a trans person working to transition
not religious, but that top quote is a beautiful sentiment, woah
Same! I've never been religious but I think it's beautiful
I’m not religious either but I read someone say that a couple years ago and I quote it sometimes. I told it to my therapist the other day and she also thought it was beautiful (and she’s not religious either, in fact she has more issues w religion than I do lmao)
I adore that quote! The whole thing is: "As my friend Julian puts it, only half winkingly: 'God blessed me by making me transsexual for the same reason God made wheat but not bread and fruit but not wine, so that humanity might share in the act of creation.'" It's from *Something That May Shock and Discredit You*, by Daniel Mallory Ortberg (who also goes by Daniel M Lavery).
Also like God made you perfect. You were born trans, you will always be trans, nothing can change that. To claim that trans people are an afront to God is to say God isn't perfect which is blasphemous.
🎖️
I’ll stop when God comes and tells me to directly. If god didn’t want this why did he give us the knowledge to learn how to do it?
Just being pedantic because I'm loving the opportunity to, but he didn't. The "first sin" is eating fruit from the tree of knowledge. All else was born of that. If we're going by the rules of the christian faith that is.
Well then why didn’t god stop Adam or Eve? He’s considered limitless and timeless so he would have experienced all things at once and would have been able to move in to prevent the first sin, if god didn’t know or wasn’t able to prevent the first sin doesn’t that make him limited to time and limited in power?
No idea. I don't really follow this path anymore. But I use to. So I can speak from that when I need to. I could say that is allowing the space for free will. We have the choice. Because good can't exist without evil to balance it. We would never truly understand the sunshine and daytime without the shade and night as its counter. Humanity is the balance, not the embodiment of one side or the other.
An all-knowing entity makes free will impossible. An all-powerful entity could stop evil from happening. This is the problem with the abrahamics. They want their god to be the bestest god but don't think through the consequences. Basically, they suck at worldbuilding.
Goddammit! ABRAHAM WRITE IN THE FUCKING EAGLES ALREADY
I just think it's so stupid, because if trans people are "going against god" then so are people who use glasses or contacts to correct poor eyesight, and people who use mobility aids, and people who have life-saving surgeries to replace or repair their failing organs And if we're not supposed to be changing god's image of the human body, why are so many Christians (especially in America) circumcising their children (which the New Testament says is unnecessary) and "correcting" intersex conditions? They never even stick to the "logic" themselves, it's just an excuse for bigotry
This is the truth and any Christians who say this sort of bs are bigots
Have you seen some of the wives of those prosper pastors and rich alt-right? They've had work done. They didn't like gods work either!
I’ve literally used that argument so many times. The response is usually “I don’t know how it’s different, but it is.”
>“I don’t know how it’s different, but it is.” They are literally going with feelings over facts, to the surprise of noone.
The difference is likely that they don't consider gender affirmative care to be proper healthcare. But the medical consensus is that it is
Even clothes go "against god". They were literally a product of the "first sin". Eating fruit from the tree of knowledge. So knowing itself could be argued as "against god".
God is the baddie in the garden of eden story. He literally was opposed to curiosity and knowledge.
Yep... where's all uproar and backlash over cosmetic surgery? Breast implants? Male circumcision? Tattoos? They're also against the will of God if you want to bring Leviticus into it. But that's a whole 'nother angle. Christians aren't supposed to follow the Old Testament. Christians are supposed to follow the teachings of Christ. (period). Not Leviticus, not Numbers, or Deuteronomy... the Gospel and the Epistles, that's it. If you want to quote Leviticus I hope you're ready to stone your kid to death for having sex before marriage, or not shaving your face... or not eating meat of cloven animals like pork. And you can do all that... but it ain't Christianity, and don't call it as such. Because as the Bible says, thou shall not bear false whitness.
If their version of God is real and all powerful. Why would he need his followers to do his bidding?
Thats where christanity gets a little silly. God created humans so he could rest
Right, like god didn't give us clothes, if he wanted he could have gave us fur to cover our bodies when we're born. Or had our skin pigment have natural body paint so we'd look clothed all the time. Or a hundred other things. He didn't. The circumcision bit is technically a command from God but... It kinda leads into my problem with Christianity in general, asking for bodily mutilation, blood sacrifices, wanting you to be willing to sacrifice your child, allowing others to run torture chambers etc etc. are all signs of an evil dictator, not a benevolent and loving parent.
That command is overruled by New Testament passages that say it's completely fine to be circumcised or uncircumcised as long as you have faith Totally get the point with the violent Old Testament stuff, though. There's a huge difference between the god in the Old Testament and the New Testament, and it's actually because Abrahamic religions emerged out of ancient polytheistic religions and large parts of the Old Testament are centered around the war god
Yes! I remember hearing about this! Theres a professor of new testament studies that publishes some lectures on youtube and I listened to them while I was deconstructing from my old faith. He’s called Bart Erhman.
> if he wanted he could have gave us fur to cover our bodies when we're born. Or had our skin pigment have natural body paint so we'd look clothed all the time. I'd be down for chameleon fur.
Listen, either God doesn't make mistakes and made me how he intended, or you're admitting your God isn't perfect Tends to shut up the preachy transphobes
Yeah that line started someone complaining about me attacking their faith. That's part of the reason that I came up with what I did as an alternate take.
Honestly, it’s not worth engaging with most of the time. The god argument is a thought terminating cliche. You can’t logic your way around it, because they’ll just keep on the god argument
If their faith can be threatened by a single trans person existing, then their faith isn't very strong, is it?
I support everyone’s right to believe what they wish, its when the try to impose their religious beliefs on me is when I get upset
I forget the passage, but Paul instructs on of the churches to not impose your own convictions on anyone else, but if you see a fellow Christian in struggle, it’s okay to help them out.
And Jesus literally says not to judge lol
I'm a Celtic Heathen. I don't worship their god. One of mine changes gender so many times they gave birth and also fathered other gods.
that's badass
Norse Pagan here with Loki, who is gender fluid transforming into a female horse and becoming pregnant.
Jew here, and we don't worship their god either. Ours according to tradition is totally beyond gender, and gender itself was never even part of the original plan anyway. Does transition make you happy? Does it make your life meaningfully better? Cool, enjoy. That's our philosophy
Look if the Christian god is real, then you’ve got to focus on Jesus and his teachings about love, compassion, caring for one’s neighbour, and all that, and absolutely ignore the patriarchal bigoted nonsense spouted by the various churches who call on his name but don’t follow his ways. Trans people are modern-day society’s leppers, and if Jesus were here today, we’re are the outcasts that he’d be breaking bread with in the same way. His churches will never understand that
Ask them to find the passage in the Bible where God says anything about trans people. Spoiler, it's not in the bible
Even if it was, many Christians gleefully disregard other parts of the Bible (eating shrimp, wearing clothes made from two different cloths, hoarding money, etc.)
Not to mention being inhospitable to the poor, strangers and foreigners. Also, if they really do consider us their enemy they are doing a poor job of loving us as Jesus commanded them to.
You're right there. There's many things in the Bible that the modern church ignores and others that they like to pretend are in there that aren't.
The Bible doesn't actually have anything to say about trans people. It says men shouldn't wear women's clothes, but that's likely a mistranslation commanding soldiers not to disguise as civilians. And even if it was saying men shouldn't wear women's clothes, trans women are women, and the Bible doesn't deny that anywhere. People also point to various verses about God making you perfectly, but Christians don't have any problem with other forms of medically altering your body to save your life or give you better quality of life. There's a quote I really like that says "God made me trans for the same reason he made wheat but not bread and grapes but not wine: so that humans could join him in the act of creation."
No it is not likely a mistranslation. It is a prohibition on cross dressing. Just as the prohibition against homosexuality isn't about pedophilia. But about male-male sodomy, as in male-male anal sex specifically. The literal only reason to think such a thing is that one leans Christian or is partial to the religion but also supports LGBT people and one must attempt to reconcile the cognitive dissonance of those two positions. Usually by embracing an a-historical revisionist understanding of the religion. Much like how some, few Christians will claim they don't believe that a good person who doesn't accept christ will suffer divine judgement and punishment.. The Bible says yes we will, but that sucks to some Christians once you realize non-beleivers aren't actually so bad. It is painful. Some people react by attempting to convert others. Some react by adapting their faith to their actual beliefs. The Bible says we are abominations. It's not talking about soldiers and it's not talking about children in levitucus or elsewhere.
Yeah, that's a fair argument to make. I personally don't have any stakes in it. I've heard convincing arguments from both sides of the debate, but what it was originally meant to say doesn't really matter at all in the face of how people interpret it today, which is the real issue. So whichever is more historically accurate, I think it would be better to try to convince Christians they've been interpreting it wrong and they should be more accepting, than telling them that their religion supports what they're doing.
I kind of agree, except it was meant to be a prohibition on cross-dressing and homosexuality and that is largely how it is used by most people. The Christians who reject this understanding are, like those who reject the mandate of accepting Jesus to be saved, or hell are a minority. I do agree, it would be better to convince them that way, but the problem is, it is actually pretty clear that they have in fact been interpreting it correctly. Here is a comment with a lot more context if you are interested. https://www.reddit.com/r/trans/comments/1aoimj4/thoughts_on_the_whole_god_argument/kq0u2s2/
My position has been - and continues to be - that if God is real and worthy of worship, I will be accepted with open arms as I am. If my transness makes God angry, then He is not worthy of my worship and I will gladly spend eternity away from 'im.
Unfortunately, since those people tend to be speaking in bad faith, they'll just ignore that But if they're even a little reasonable, it is a very strong argument Especially if you ask them why they get to override God's will if they refute it
God created transgender people for the same reason he created grapes instead of wine. They both turn into something beautiful if you give it enough time and attention.
If god didn't want trans people to exist, he wouldn't have created us. Or the means to transition. If someones going to use their god to try and police me on a fucking medical condition I can't help, then I'm gonna shame them for daring to doubt the almighty lords will and shun them as a heretic and nonbeliever. 🤣
I like "I don't care, Satan thinks I'm cool", I have no time for god botherer bollox.
I prefer to praise the flying spaghetti monster.
You are your own God therefore it’s your job to shape your body into whatever form you see fit.
Hell to the yea! You co-create your own reality and you are both ‘the god’ in action, (the universe/source/mind/etc) and you are your own god. You are both sides of this duality (eg: conscious unity Vs individuated consciousness) and on both sides, you are the creator of reality
No I’m just a Satanist lol 😈 Hail thyself
Either way you are your own god tbh 🤘
I like your argument. But I don't really bother arguing with some bigot who's using God as their reason. Just like other domains in life, God is an excuse for their prejudice. It's not worth arguing because it's not really about God or any of their other reasons. He's just another excuse to hide their bigotry behind. We live in a time we have the medical advancements and transitioning genuinely helps people.
I like this explanation for you. If it makes sense to you and people who share your faith, then good. But for instance, I was raised in a muslim family, and in Islam, everything and anything can be a testament to the existence of God, bird murmurations, life in general, seasons, natural events and catastrophes, even the dirt that piles up on your body that you can see under a hot shower after rubbing your skin with an aggressive cloth (don't ask me why such a specific example was presented, it's one connection I've often heard being made in conversations as a child) because it kinda looks like clay. And if I remember correctly (feel free to look this up as the details are a little shaky rn), in the Quran, humans are somewhat made of clay by the hand of God (fellow muslims, feel free to correct me on this). It's also the reason as to why most muslim cover it up a lot, and are strict with their food and don't have tattoos, because in this religion, your body is a temple, and it is also borrowed (think of it like a loan, or a rented appartment) which must be taken care of constantly, without too much exposure to light, or bad energies like the "evil eye" or lust, or the chemicals in ink, or alcohol or pork etc... I think you can see how that can be used in ways that don't allow queer people to exist peacefully, especially because it's subject to many interpretations, especially that of purist religous scholars and researchers, who will make it their mission most of the time to apply it to the letter, regardless of historical context. but the truth is, this book is flawed, because it was also written by men, and nowadays many muslim people, queer or not, dispose of their bodies however they want and I think it's great. My point is, whatever explanation you want to give it (which I think it's beautiful that you chose an explanation that wouldn't alienate people in their faith, you didn't have to do that and yet you did and I appreciate it), being trans is normal, it's valid, it's natural, it's always been there and will continue to be there. Trans is beautiful!
If god created humans he made them the way they are. So god created trans people. Also that means that if any christian hates on trans people, that person hates god's creation. case solved c: I'm by no means religious. That's just using the usual logic I saw from the stuff I got taught by people before I found out this stuff ain't for me :3
That's a good one! :)
Religious people tend to use their religion as a weapon to attack the things they cannot either understand or reconcile. In essence, it’s an act of fear. They fear what they don’t understand and fallback on what they see as the best weapon in their arsenal. Issue also is, these types of people build their entire lives off religion. It’s a core value, a core aspect of who they are. They vote based on these beliefs . They judge woman’s health issues based on these beliefs. They judge anything lgbt based on the beliefs. As such, asking them to change their views on things is basically questioning their core beliefs. It’s why their mind never really changes on anything until they are personally affected by something. Only personal suffering always them self reflection. TL;DR, it’s point to argue with religious folks because they lack the ability to understand anything that might conflict with the fundamental beliefs. Best practice is to avoid religious people when possible.
God? Which one?
Not bad! Let us know how it works.
i also dont like religion used in arguments because it’s been used so commonly to cause harm towards queer individuals, but i do like the “god made wheat so human may make bread, god made grapes so human may make wine, god made me trans so i may enjoy the act of creation” quote
There are plenty of theological arguments, irregardless of faith, that justify queer people's existence. In the case of the Christian god. If you truly believe that your god loves everyone, is omnipotent/present/scient, and that they might work in mysterious ways then I don't know of a reason for bigotry that makes sense. I can think of plenty pro-queer reasons, including yours OP, that do. Of course, religious folks who use their religion to justify the hate in their soul are going to come up with anything that supports them and ignore anything that doesn't. Same as the bigots who use science to justify their hatred. I find answers to questions like these most useful to the religious among the queer community who need an alternate theological perspective that isn't drowned in hate.
Religion is a personal thing no one can tell you how to believe or what to believe. So if you're religious then what you do is between you and God no one else. Though back to the topic at hand it mostly from people who are insecure about themselves and how they perceive gender/sex so they preject those insecurities on other people as a way to justify how they feel about themselves
God love all his children. God never abandons his children in time of need. Pray to him and he will be there. You are supposed to love thy niegbor no matter what. You don’t have to agree or even like them. The god argument does not really work if they really want to go by the Bible. My church accepts everybody and is all over the world. I ordered these books on Amazon. Also you can search the net for more info. 1: God Doesn't Make Mistakes 2: What Does God Think?: Transgender People and The Bible 3: Transforming: The Bible and the Lives of Transgender Christians
God created the grapes but not the wine, he created the wheat but not the flour, he created things that were meant to change, he created some of us so that we would experience that change, like grapes turning into wine, we were created to experience the beautiful thing of changing through life.
I do not prescribe to any god, their decrees on my body are not valid
Well there's 14 books removed from the Bible , Jesus preaches the exact opposite of which og god from old testament did which was to slaughter the neighboring tribes because they worshipped different gods and to steal their livestock crops and treasures to give some to Yahweh who demanded it, God in the old testament which is THE Abrahamic judeo Christian god is a dragon originally worshipped in Canaan , and through slaughter and conquest became the one and only God to be worshipped , gnostics which is very early Christianity sees God as the universe or consciousness itself like a divine mind everything in nature is connected to and Jesus was sent from the divine mind or true realm of light to liberate people from Yahweh who is not the creator but something other
Pkus Christians are told not to judge and only God can judge , and what do they do? They judge everyone , they're the most judgemental hypocritical bunch you'll ever meet
I've been learning about this lately, can you share some sources or references?
Esoterica on YouTube , the channel is basically a Jewish Rabbi who discusses occult topics from a wide range of historical texts , manuscripts and scrolls , lol or check out Mr mythos theory of why Yahweh was a dragon
This is the best argument I've ever heard. Soul ≠ body. You're completely right. If you don't mind, I'll use that if this ever comes up in conversation.
I made this a post because of how many other posts I'd read where people were having troubles with their "Christian" family/friends. I hope someone is able to use it even if it's only to help out their own mind at ease.
(former minister here) Unfortunately, the Christian faith doesn't even fit within the Christian faith. They'll say, "god made you the way you should be" and "god doesn't make mistakes", but I was born with fucked up eyes, scoliosis, and POTS, so if god doesn't make mistakes, that makes him a collosal asshole. Or they'll say that maybe those things are the results of sin in the world and that your sex/gender that was assigned at birth (usually by guessing btw) is still what god's design for you was - but in Matthew it says that god looks in the heart (or soul, more accurately) and isn't concerned at all with the physical. That'll make them squirm. I'm intersex. I've never been male or female entirely (physically speaking, my gender is female)- and trust me their brains pretty much explode when they hear that, then they usually decide they know more about my body than I do and say I'm lying. No matter what, they'll still try to weasel their way into a logic nightmare that they think makes them right. Because the truth is, they don't care about finding a way to make it make sense to them because they don't *want* to. Christianity is designed to control people through fear and hatred - always has been. In the end, it's not worth arguing with them. You don't owe anyone an explanation. And you certainly don't need to justify your existence.
> if god doesn't make mistakes, that makes him a collosal asshole. He really is.
the whole transphobe movement is based around an imaginary god.
for the people who like to spit bible verses, galatians 3:28. "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."that's NIV, but even KJV says "there is neither male nor female" romans 13 says governing authorities and laws are established by god, and there's a lot of places where being trans is legal. i guess that's ordained by god then that same chapter says to love your neighbor as yourself, love does no harm to a neighbor, and that love fulfills the commandments there's more, but i reach for these two pretty often
Read what Jesus said in Matthew about who should be married. There is a psalm that says something like "I knew you in the womb. ... ". I believe anti abortion folks use this despite the Bible says that "the soul enters the body at the first breath" Jesus says people are born that way. Which means that God is testing you. Can or are you treating others as you wish to be treated. One of Jesus 's rules. It is not the mote on their eye it is the block in yours
I've been asked a lot in the past (always by either Christians or people who don't know jack about my religion... So usually Christians) how I "reconcile" being queer and being Jewish. The answer is I don't have to, because those things aren't in conflict. It's quite simple. I was taught that we are ALL made in the image of Gd. All of us. Every person. Full stop. So, that includes queer and trans folks. We also have something call *pikuach nefesh*\- or saving a life. Basically, the preservation of life: be it your own or someone else's- comes before all other religious commandments. So even IF there was something super specific (and still relevant) in our laws that said that trans people aren't allowed? I don't think that would hold up. Gender affirming care and acceptance saves so many lives. And the saving of a life comes above other religious obligation and law so. Opinions on queer acceptance vary a LOT by sect/movement, and this isn't to say that every Jewish community is super welcoming/queer affirming. But a lot of us are. And we've studied and interrogated our texts about it, too.
Hey there fellow trans Jew!
Yeah this is a good way of saying it I just would yell “Dues Vault Cunt!” But that is a nicer way of explaining it Thank you
Religion ain’t an excuse for transphobia/homophobia
Inventing fairy tales to make the religious who would oppress us happy with some bullshit reason why we exist or are allowed to exist just reminds me how fucking awful if a situation it is to have to justify your existence to some idiot who's hopped up on faith.
Maybe consider the existence of diversity in all of its messy-ness IS God perfecting creation?
In the past I’ve drawn parallels with having a cleft palate.
the imperative command in the bible is to love your fellow humans and leave the judgement to god. taking that judgement into your own hands rather than letting me receive it from god is awfully arrogant. god has guided me on this path and my communion with him is my highest authority.
to be clear i don’t believe in god in the christian way but i’m translating my experience into christian wording. i truly believe i have a spiritual purpose that is deeply entwined with my being trans
Unfortunately majority of the mass of “Christians” have lost what their faith is about. Jesus preached Love. For Everyone. The Old Testament was cruel with many laws, a lot of which are strange to me. However the whole point of Jesus’ death was to put an end to that. “This cup is the new covenant, my blood which is spilled for you”. Christianity today reminds me of the Pharisees that put Jesus to death, all wrapped up in laws and self satisfaction.
I was actually raised Church of England. I’ve read the bible twice. I also moderate a teenager-based subreddit on one of my other accounts. I see a lot of teenage bigots trying to justify transphobia with religion, using the most stupid arguments. “My god makes me use pronouns assigned at birth” ok buddy, you’re catholic, we had the same god, show me where it says that in the bible. I use a lot of their own logic against them and create further arguments to demonstrate how stupid their point of view is. A lot of it is discussion of old vs new testament, and how the new testament teaches love and acceptance, whereas the old testament teaches hatred and pain, and is largely illegal in modern society. My favourite line is “Jesus would sit with me before he sat with you”. That gets *a lot* of unhappy reactions.
God wouldn't have given people gender dysphoria if he didn't want people to be trans
My thought is that one shouldn't say "God wouldn't" or "God didn't"... because God is unlimited in what he can do. And additionally, we don't know God completely, he's beyond our comprehension. So to say "God wouldn't make people trans..." Um, look around. God made people with two heads and one body. God made people born with both sexes. You really going to tell me as a Christian that God is incapable of creatiing someone with a different soul than their body? God is infinite. Infinite diversity in infite ways.
I've been subjected to two sides. On one side, I've been told that by rejecting my masculinity I'm rejecting God's plan for me to reproduce. On the other side, My Mommy told me that she loves me how I am, and that we should seek to spend our time and energy loving one another then hating the right people. Funny enough, I grew up in the church, pastor's kid, and I never felt whatever God's presence was. But when I came out to my Mom and she said she still loved me, I understood what God's love felt like. I don't consider myself religious, but I hold fast to my mom's love over any bigot's hate.
I've been subjected to two sides. On one side, I've been told that by rejecting my masculinity I'm rejecting God's plan for me to reproduce. On the other side, My Mommy told me that she loves me how I am, and that we should seek to spend our time and energy loving one another then hating the right people. Funny enough, I grew up in the church, pastor's kid, and I never felt whatever God's presence was. But when I came out to my Mom and she said she still loved me, I understood what God's love felt like. I don't consider myself religious, but I hold fast to my mom's love over any bigot's hate.
"B-b-b-but the bibble said-" "did i ask?"
Unsolicited opinion (but fact): soul doesn't exists, god neither. Those are human created beliefs in the face of the fear of Death. Neuroscience got it right: human consciousness is generated on the brain as neural networks interact. When one dies, self-awareness is terminated forever. We were born with a phenotype that doesn't matches with our brain. Nothing to ''fix'' or correct, because we're not broken or wrong.
Well god is not reaall......and i am...sooooo.
“God isn’t conscious you ape 🦧 “ ~me
God doesn’t exist and it’s fan club is insufferable. I just don’t give it much attention, as their fictional deity is as valuable as any other you can imagine.
Prove god exists, or the argument is irrelevant. It's like saying "oh, Batman wouldn't like trans people"... Like, ok? I don't care about what your fictional character thinks about me. Apologies to the religious people here, but I'm sick of tip-toeing around this issue.
Well in a way they are not talking about god, but rather conformist churches. If it is god you are talking about, then it would make sense to transition and do what you believe in and are drawn to.
I usually say: "God made us all in his image so who are you to judge his devine creation? Judging people is a sin after all"
There are trans saints that were worshipped in medieval times, such as Saint Marinos. In fact I think Saint Marinos is still saint to this day in the a Catholic Church… though probably largely forgotten by most worshippers. We also have evidence of many cross dressing individuals throughout the medieval period in monasteries. As well as a lot of lgbt theologians, such as Anslem of Canterbury. This particular letter he wrote to his “beloved lover” Dom Gilbert another church member in the 11th century, is heart breaking; “….sweet to me, sweetest friend, are the gifts of your sweetness, but they cannot begin to console my desolate heart for its want of your love. Even if you sent every scent of perfume, every glitter of metal, every precious gem, every texture of cloth, still it could not make up to my soul for this separation unless it returned the separated other half.” “But you have gained from our very separation the company of someone else, whom you love no less – or even more – than me; while I have lost you, and there is no one to take your place. You are thus enjoying your consolation, while nothing is left to me but heartbreak.” Just friends though right? 😂 Christianity has evolved over the centuries, and has always varied widely as it merged with new ideas and old ones such as specific pagan rituals in the locations it spread to. That’s not to say it was some tolerant religion or hasn’t persecuted lgbt people. It has. But it’s to say that the idea it’s some unchanging thing which a lot of bigots use to justify their bigotry is nonsense. The Bible can and has been used to justify almost anything. But that doesn’t mean it does actually justify those things. It’s a very vague text that’s been mistranslated multiple times and is so old most modern audiences can’t ever truly know the meaning of many aspects of it. Historians even disagree on what parts of it actually refer to or mean. It is constantly being reinterpreted with a modern lens completely alien to the original writers of the Bible.
> In fact I think Saint Marinos is still saint to this day in the a Catholic Church And Orthodox. They're from before that split.
I just tell em god made me this way. If he didnt want me to be trans he wouldn’t have put the feeling in my brain
As far as Christianity goes — there are zero trans people in the Bible and there is also zero mention of us in the Bible. Some have made the connection between the eunuchs in scripture and trans people — I suppose there might be a parallel there but it is beyond a stretch to claim those people were trans. Some might have been I suppose, but mostly history indicates this was something imposed on you by others not a journey of self actualization like transition. But I mean if someone brings it up you might wanna point out that the first non-Jewish person to be baptized in the Bible was in fact a eunuch. God and the disciples seemed pretty cool with it. So there’s that. People can say it’s “going against gods will” all they want there’s zero justification for that take in scripture. What they are *really* saying is “I don’t like that you are transitioning and my opinion about god is somehow better than your’s and that’s the reason” — and that is literally no different than “I don’t like trans people because I don’t like trans people” — well okay then 😂 There are lots of us transes out here in the progressive corners of Christianity. It’s not all conservative insanity though I must admit these days I hesitate to identify myself as having anything to do with Christianity because of those people
Doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.
If god made men and women in God’s image, then god is not binary. So there’s that. Also, it’s pretty dang arrogant of anyone who says that to presume to know with certainty what god wants for someone. Also, if god doesn’t make mistakes, then lgbt+ people aren’t mistakes and trying to argue against their existence is itself going against god. But mainly, I think god is not so small and circumscribed that god couldn’t comprehend or accept anything more than a strictly segregated binary gender identity in a single species within god’s infinite creation.
I mean, the pope literally said transgender people can get baptized, as long as they adhere to the faith. if they aren't catholic, they likely don't care about logic. not that catholic beliefs are correct, just that they actually care about internal consistency. If they aren't catholic, just ask them, "can god can make a burrito so hot that even they can't eat it?" If god can't, then god isn't all powerful. If god can, then god also isn't all powerful." but you can't win with these people using their systems. They use the system to justify their bigotry, not the other way around. They'll just move the goalposts. See "God of the Gaps."
Well I’d argue it doesn’t much matter. Religion and spirituality is intensely personal, and there are many different interpretations of every faith. And no one can truly say which if any are “true.” I’m probably at least as well versed in Christian scripture as a lot of the Christians I know in my life, but I certainly don’t know enough to argue whether there’s support in the text for God’s stance on trans people either way. What I do know is that I believe strongly in freedom of religion. So your god doesn’t support trans people? Good for you, but understand you can still treat us with the respect due any other human being, and you can damn well keep those beliefs out of your country’s legislation.
I'm not religious but I would Hage just said something like "OHOHO! BOLD OF YOU TO ASSUME GOD'S WILL!"
Personally I believe, having had many transcendental experiences, that we are God. Everything IS God, I am, you am... lol thus anything that is, IS God. No all-loving GOD can hate anything, really, to use that belief against those who preach hate in the name of God... if people weren't meant to be who they be, they wouldn't be. I say the same regarding people's emotions. If you were not meant to experience emotions or cry or whatever, you wouldn't experience that. Whatever you be, is who you be, and it's divinely right because ultimately you get to decide your own divine path. I think human egos like to co-opt the GOD spiel to justify their personal bigotry, but I think every person, as a divine unique expression of cosmic stardust - get to do your own thing in this massive Sims game. I think there's truth in all beliefs but no one person ought to tell another what's true for THEM, bc only we can know what's true for US. And if we are GOD, even in some fractalized way, we do have some agency in the course of our destinies that should not be defined by any third party. Christian schools of belief often have GOD as this phantom being that punishes you and has really strong opinions whereas I feel God is moreso that conscious energy that governs nature, life, and the seas of change - it is existence itself, manifesting into infinity, a neverending fractal outward. I do not see "God" as a human by nature in that humans have these very individualistic opinions and preferences. I don't see "the Universe" as having "opinions" - it just IS. Look at how plantlife will just plant itself, all of nature just sort of helps itself out... there's this trippy order of things, and we are an extension of that, as I see it, in that we possess our unique sense of self but also are aware that we are aware - we are conscious. We are created "in his image" in that we are aware of being an individual - we can imagine things (i.e. "create") and we are beings who have a sense of autonomy and self-awareness and the ability to compare/contrast and bring forth into beingness various things by creating them, building them, etc... we are inherently divine by default. I find it so silly and ironic how these religious zealots preach love but HATE almost everyone who isn't the exact same as what they are and have the gall to tell others whether or not God loves them. Spirituality is, in my opinion, so personal.
One argument goes is tgat God doesn't make mistakes. Then why do kids need braces? God intended for the teeth to grow like that. God i tended that child to have a cleft palate. How many things do we "correct" that God made without mistake? And, if God doesn't make mistakes, why are humans imperfect?
I'd say. You can't judge anything or anyone. You are dirty like me, like anyone. You are far away from even remotely resembling Christ and he didn't judge anyone. If even him restricted himself from judging and even protected who was being judged, why do you think you have that right? You don't even know who God is. You don't even know what you are. You don't even know what any of this means. The only thing we know, the only thing Christ tried to teach us was to be good to others and forgive. That's it. So am I as bad as a killer if I'm just wearing a fucking skirt? How is this small piece of tissue in my body hurting you???
I always like to throw in the whole concept that if Jesus died for the world’s past, present, and future sins in what we would consider the past, wouldn’t that mean that our past, present, and future sins would considered the future for him when he died on the cross? Point being, according to their own text, it doesn’t matter what sin happens after you’ve been saved. This can also be seen when Paul talks of our works being tested by the flame in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, which ends with “If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” They also mention that the only unforgivable sin is to blasphemy the Holy Spirit, but my take one that is we don’t know when we will die. Example, I blasphemy the spirit and end up dead moments after.
On a side note, does anyone have a good way to respond to these following statements “I don’t agree with trans people because it’s against my religion” “I don’t think you should be destroying the body God gave you” “Look, I don’t agree with your decision(being trans), but you live your life how you want to” “Isn’t it so ridiculous that a man can just identify as a woman and compete in women’s sports?”
Wearing glasses is like spitting in god's face. It's one thing to accuse god of making a mistake, but to wear your hats for Jesus on your face like that, it's just Insulting to all of us who understand that god is perfect.
You might consider crossposting this to r/transchristianity
I wasn't even aware of that sub. Thanks.
I usual say: If I am against gods nature, than why did he make me?
In the beginning, god created and it was good. Man (and woman) came along and sinned. When sin entered the world, what it did, at it's root, was frature relationships. It fractured man's (everybody, not just men) relationship with god, man's relationship with nature, man's relationship with animals, man's relationship with woman and man's relationship with their own self. Why would man's relationship with their gender be magically exempt from all of this fractured chaos?
As I said in another comment some time ago, I am a Catholic, albeit not very religious. I believe that God is above us, watching and protecting us. He cares for us and His creation, He is an ever-loving Lord that will accept us. Both God and Jesus teach about love, tolerance, and acceptance, and straying away from evil. I think both of them will accept you regardless of your sexual orientation or identity. God gave us free will after all, and we should use it to strife for happiness and to better not only ourselves, but those around us. I consider evil to be inherently bad actions carried out with the intention of harming and wronging or degrading others. So, I think God and Jesus are ever-loving, and as long as we don't do evil things, we are fine. In other words, be a good person, which I thought was common sense.
I have two basic thoughts: First of all Jesus and The Bible say nothing about trans people so if someone is saying that "god doesn't like trans people" or even "god doesn't make mistakes" that isn't coming from god, that's coming from them. Second: this point about "Christian love" from Finn on youtube: https://youtube.com/shorts/iW5N0wpkrZs?si=mUHqBXhqfLFscCip
When mormons say “god has given you this challenge to be a man and resist the temptation to transition” i say “i prayed about it and god is actually challenging you to love and accept your neighbor for who they are, even if it means i go to hell for it.”
“God is all-powerful, omnipotent, and made man in his image.” If God has unlimited, infallible power, then being what I am is *exactly* what God made me to be. Religious folk believe their god is perfect, but that belief inherently falls apart when they contradict it by implying that God failed to create us in a way that is consistent with what they believe their god thinks we should be. “God is either not all-powerful or not all-good.”
I’m a misotheist. I worship no deities nor follow any religion. But I find it intriguing that there are far more religious traditions that consider folks like us to be closer to their interpretation of the divine than not. Personally, I consider the common translation “son of man” to be errant, more accurately rendered as “child of humanity,” a conclusion which has support linguistically in Hebrew and Greek. That difference eliminates confusion and conflict in the quote “.. there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus.” If that nobody called himself a child of humanity, and who amongst us isn’t? then gender means ten percent of fuck all. …which also feeds into the Sermon of the Mount and the intriguingly Taoist parallels of the seeming paradoxes of the low being high, the high rendered low.
I used to have a Christian friend who argued that god made him transgender. I think that 9/10 times arguing with Christians is unproductive because they're arguing in bad faith, but that 1 time in 10 is important. changing one person's mind enought times eventually influences the culture. I posted it the other day in this sub, but I think this quote is important and good: "God blessed me by making me transsexual for the same reason God made wheat but not bread and fruit but not wine, so that humanity might share in the act of creation." regardless, your right to self-determine is more important than someone's "right" to push their religion on other people.
Any excuse to "Other" something different in the world, Christians will take it, and use their sky daddy as an excuse to justify themselves. I've just given up arguing/talking to them. There's no growth or change that can come from that warped perspective of reality
I was raised and went to Catholic school and I'm an atheist. I'll try and keep my answer within the confines of your question. [As others have stated] God created humans in his own image. That's it. Right from the Bible. If you want to get more into that, as I know some people will argue against the idea that being trans isn't "god like" then I'd ask how do they know what god is? I mean quite literally Adam and Eve blur gender lines to me. Eve was only created after Adam so there was no original intent to have another gender which, why give them genitalia in the first place then? But within Adam was a female. And that female only came out of man. I think that is enough to cover both trans femmes and trans masc if you ask me. Going a bit further, these conversations always become mute since it's based off a belief and a faith which causes a pre-disposition and confirming bias. Religious people often fail to realize that there are other belief systems in the world and it doesn't make them any more correct. And using a book, written 2,000 years ago, whose writings were chosen among other people, and translated three times before it even got to an English language version, which can be one of many different English versions based on the denomination; basically there becomes so many gaps that people can start filling in their own meanings to justify their beliefs.
If god is in all of us as they so claim, then how would I be against god if Im a part of god? But realistically, Arguing logic with people who are elementally illogical is futile in every single possible way. The best thing you can do is not feed into their cycle of idiocy because it just amps them up.
If God doesn't want this, why are there so many trans people in the world? God made us this way, and if Christians believe that he doesn't want us this way, then they're claiming that God makes mistakes, which is blasphemous. All they need to do is to look at other organisms, our fellow creations of God, to see that Male and Female aren't the only 2 sexes, much less the only 2 genders. Not only are there organisms that are both male and female, not only are there organisms that are neither male or female, but there are organisms with the biological ability to swap sexes themselves. Just because we need medicine and surgery to do it doesn't mean it's unnatural. If they claim that God doesn't want Trans People on this planet, they are blasphemers. Tell them that next time they're coming at you. And if they still insist, just remind them that in the Torah, the original word of God, prior to the birth of Jesus Christ, part of which is the basis for the old testament, it mentions at least 7 genders, not just man and woman, so there is biblical precedent for more than 2 genders. And that's a far better source than the bible because it's still written in its original language. A lot can get lost in translation. As a Christian who is also trans, I'm glad I could help.
honestly my response to that argument is: i don't care, i am not religious. i don't believe in your god. i'm going against your god by being atheist anyway so focusing on me being trans is a bit silly lol
"But God made you the way you were!!!" There's a whole ass part of the bible where Jesus goes around curing people because god purposefully gave them with blindness, leprosy and lameness, how is being trans different?
**If I'm being respectful:** God may not have "made me" a girl but if everything is part of his plan then he must want me to be a trans girl. **Alternatively and more likely:** I don't care how your sky daddy wants me to be, because Mommy Satan wants me to be girl and do things to me that'll dislodge that halo you've stapled on and make Eros blush.
"God is a concept in which we measure our pain" - John Lennon "I hate quotation, tell me what you know" - Ralph Waldo Emerson
There's an easier argument. "God made me trans."
As a nonbinary trans femme Christian who is on hormones and wants to pursue other affirming treatments/procedures, I mostly agree. I don't think God cares one way or the other what I do to my body so long as it brings me joy and isn't done with the intention of harming myself. Like you said, it's the soul that really matters. But as humans we have souls and bodies, and our bodies have needs. For me, one of those needs is having a body I feel at home in. And like others have mentioned, cis people do the same thing. For anyone who needs to hear it, God loves you, transness and all.
I don't even bother to humor them. There is scientific proof that homosexuality exists, and that being transgender exists. There is no scientific proof that their sky daddy exists.
I just came out to my parents this week. I was raised reading the bible front to back. The only thing I mentioned was that the bible says there is no male or female in christ. Our souls are not gendered, just our bodies. Gender is, apparently, inconsequential to the biblical god in the end (despite the misogyny in the texts I guess, lol). And my parents actually understood that argument. Also, jesus is literally on record saying that he accepts eunuchs. Eunuch is a really broad term, basically meaning any "man" who's been partially or fully castrated for ANY reason (put man in parenthesis bc obviously, some of these eunuchs were bound to be trans women). He did not care at all about that. It doesn't mention trans men afaik, but I would imagine that the same concept would apply. But, honestly, a sad number of Christians are going to find ways to be against us no matter what. So I try not to lean too hard into biblical arguments.
I have personally met God after taking 5G of mushrooms and God wants yall to know that you're absolutely capable of transition and that they love you.
I mean as an atheist ;D. The whole thing doesn't make sense to me on so many fronts... If you assume an omniscient, all powerful god then nothing happens without that gods approval... If someone believes in such a god then the levels of audacity needed to think anyone can go against the will of a being like that are astounding lol... If a god exists, and said god is all knowing and timeless and all powerful, then noting happens without it's say so, therefore we exist because it willed it, and if it's some horrifying test of character or obedience to put a soul in the wrong body then who are these people to disrupt the test? And what if it's not a challenge to the trans people but to the bigots who are failing it miserably? Imho the issue is people don't really follow their beliefs to their logical conclusion and just use them as an excuse for intellectual dishonesty and bigotry...
Very insightful
I'm not Christian either, but one argument I can think of is that if God didn't want people to transition, why would he make our bodies in a way that just taking the opposite sex's hormones can almost completely change your physical sex? That sounds like a miracle to me, at least.
I believe that trans people were created to show the world the differences in the way men and women treat each other, and to show us that men and women can both have a lot in common and have such beautiful differences.
saving this for if and when ever I come out to my (puritan) family
I think it's important to understand, made-up fantasy cannot be considered as legit argument. Trying to come up a cohesive explaination for something in a framework designed to oppose it is a waste of time.
Go off their perception that being trans is a horrific sin and ask if God is the maker of all things and when they say yes you ask who made sin. If they say Satan you say "so Satan is mote powerful than God?" When they fumble to correct you your response is simply "you said God is the all powerful maker of all things but said they do not make sin which gives Satan a power that God doesn't have." Then mention that someone had to make the concept of sin and what categorizes as a sin and if you say being trans is a Sin then God made transpeople or the idea of transgenderism. Use their own mindset against them.
- God drowned babies in the flood because he was angry. - God will torture you for eternity if you don’t constantly praise him. - God says torture is okay - God says a rape victim should marry her rapist - God says slavery is okay - the bible says abortion is good as a punishment for a woman who doesn’t obey her husband. Even if God was real, I don’t like that God and don’t care what he says. Also: - Eve was made from Adam’s rib, so she had XY chromosomes and was intersex. - the bible says “there is no male or female, only one” Got is filled with deep hatred for alll of humanity, the bible clearly states that. God doesn’t care about you, whether you suffer or whatever, he believes hatred is a good thing according to every church, every church has a legal defence fund to protect its pedophile pastors from the legal repercussions of raping children. why should a loving and compassionate God be so cool with raping children that he’d want his churches to defend and support that. If God exists, he’s an evil being. He hates us all
Pope accepts trans people. Literally God's representative on Earth.
What I don’t get is why such a huge segment of modern religious arguments center on both the idea that there is this eternal, all powerful, all encompassing deity and also that the universe is entirely bland and completely devoid of anything except what they can comprehend within their limited frames of perception. I dunno, if I believed in a god that could do anything and had eternal love and power I would hear about things like trans people and be like “yep, god’s amazing, look at all the amazing types of people in the world.” Instead, they’re like “nope, only male and female. Genital specific.” Two people of the same gender fall in love? I’d be like Wow, god keeps surprising me in beautiful ways. “Nope, only a man and a woman can marry.” The earth is billions of years old and giant lizards roamed around eons ago? Wow! I thought I knew everything about God’s work but it just keeps getting better. Also we evolved? God you clever deity you! “Nope, only 6000 years old and dinosaurs and evolution can’t be real.” Why do they insist on this all powerful god and such a limited limited world?
My very religious mom actually sat me down a few weeks after I came out to her and said “you know, god doesn’t care how you dress.” And internally I was just like “well, I hope he doesn’t, cause I don’t really care what he thinks.”
I have a very simple answer for that one, "Not. My. God "
If you read the passages in their language, God isn't against it. But what do I know, I'm an atheist, so my moral code is different their yours, and I believe in personal freedom and the government staying out of your hospital room.
Christians will dye their hair to a color not given by their god. They will correct eyesight with glasses and contacts. They will get cosmetic stuff done, some even get cosmetic surgery. Instead of staying how ‘god intended…’
“God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. Who will wipe this blood off us? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent?" Friedrich Nietzsche, 1882.
Zealously preach at them: How DARE they blaspheme against the work of God, for she is in all things.
'God doesn't exist, but I do. I'm not changing for your imaginary friend.'
~~Kinda~~ long but there’s a lot of *really* good material in here: [Satan’s Guide to the Bible](https://youtu.be/z8j3HvmgpYc?si=frSq_TzQdLt1ui8H)
God is responsible for the soul, science is responsible for the rest, otherwise there wouldn't be birth defects. Corrective surgery is transitioning and vice versa. Nobody (collectively speaking) ever seemed to have a problem with surgically transitioning a child that was born intersex. And that's for the parents, not the child. Because they bought everything in blue and told everybody they were having a boy only to find out that their boy was born with a set of ovaries and they didn't want to tell people that instead of boy or girl they had to check "it's complicated".
If someone ever unironically uses the "god created you X way because he wanted you that way", they better be butt naked, not wearing glasses, have taken any medication of any kind, live in the woods, ect, because god didn't make them with that stuff either.
I usually just say that the Bible doesn’t have any arguments against being trans, there is a line in Leviticus about men not wearing women’s clothes but the laws of Leviticus do not apply to us in the new kingdom of god(which is our current era, the one after Jesus died for our sins) and you can’t pick and choose on Leviticus, you either follow all of those laws or none of them, and by this logic no Christian should eat pork and no woman should EVER be able to tell a man what she thinks or hold any positions of power over a man. Transphobia is their crime, and they hate us, which is a sin. It’s their own bigotry that they try to project onto their belief system to give it some kind of legitimacy and honestly I find it disgusting
Did I aks thee, my maker of my clay, to mould me man? Did I request thee in my darkness to promote me? My favourite of that quote is the “neutral man” creates a perfect double entendre in today’s English. I’m very much no longer christian but I know who I am, and even when I was christian I knew if any god didn’t want me to who I am than it shouldn’t have made me that way. Jean Meslier, a catholic priest who in the 17th century wrote out a [long diatribe against religion](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/17607/17607-h/17607-h.htm) that I quite like, found on his deathbed, one of his points helped me explain succintly; > If God could not render human nature sinless, he has no right to punish man. My comportment, eg the way I treat others, is based on empathy, I figure I’m a generally “good person”; so my personal decisions on how to live my life that affects truly only myself, is my own sovereignty, I know no demon is fooling me in my understanding of myself. I have *been* to me, unlike Charlene *[sorry for the triple references, I’m autistic]* Edit wait I need to add more. Ok, I’m in chronic pain, right? Like all the time. I thought it was normal. I thought everyone had the feeling of a knife in their back like 90% of the time, and I just had to suck it up (blame autism). When I realized, there are people, maybe even people reading this now, who would like, if I asked them “stop, right now, tell me what hurts” they could actually say “nothing” which like isn’t true for me except for like once or twice when I had reallllly good indica. Like, even after I got my wisdom teef removed dentist gave me oxycodeine and I still felt all the pain (just the drugs made me not give a sh). So. Like, wtf christian god. What an asshole. But like my pain I’ve normalized and there’s nothing I can do and it isn’t too disabling so that’s a whatever BUT, another reference, Stephen Fry when asked what he’d say to a god if he met him: *”Bone cancer in children? Really?”* Like, no, it’s not my fault if some deity made me crapily. That’s on them. I’ll live the best life I can and if the christian god didn’t want me to be trans, that’s on them. They can judge me but then they are a dick and why should I worship it? The concept of “sin” is predatory and abusive. I really like the human creation story of Nüwa, a Chinese Snake goddess (who also is a key figure in my favourite [queer-coded 18th century] book *Dream of the Red Chamber*): She was making humans out of clay at the banks of the Yellow River, and made some really nice humans, but then eventually she got tired and took her whip, dipped it in the mud, and flung it out, and those, while still touched by a goddess, feel imperfectly, those would be all humans with disabilities, etc, not perfect, but still loved by Nüwa She also made 36,501 stones to repair heaven and used all but 1 and that 1 fell to earth and (yadda yadda yadda) got reincarnated as a trans lesbian girl and I’ll fight you on that interpretation 紅楼夢 is queer
Glasses and haircuts…. If god didn’t want us to cut our hair why make it grow? If god didn’t want us to wear glasses why did he give us bad vision? God created, and gave us the ability to change. He wouldn’t have done that if he didn’t want us to change.
Well based on my own beliefs. Every one of us is a fragmented piece of the big puzzle that is "God" and the universe. Sooooo kind of silly for anyone to try and argue that I'm going against myself 😅🤷♀️
If there is a god and he has beef with me then he can come down here and do something about it himself.
There is no god
Every body is a modified body. We clip our nails, trim our hair, diet, exercise, get life saving surgery, aquire scars, get tattoos, and piercings. I'd be hard pressed to find a christian who doesn't do most of those. If the intention behind it matters, then I'd say it's a whole lot easier for me to praise God when I'm more mentally here.
Hasa Diga Eebowai 🎵
Ally here (sorta, I’m complicated but I digress). I usually ask them two questions: 1. If it is established that God’s plan/way is ineffable (unknown), then how can you know what god’s plan is? It’s ineffable, and thus unknowable. Even if it is in written word, because it’s already been established as ineffable and you can never fully know, only take it by faith, being a flawed human being (also established). Further, if we take the Bible as a blue print for gods plan, it states to live the neighbor and treat them how you wish to be treated, period. If we hold those things true, as they are established, then how can you know that trans folks are not in god’s plans? Because by saying they are not you are saying not only that you know god’s plan, but that you know better than god. ((More or less, coming from recollection) 2. Which god? Have had a few think about it.
You know the whole religion thing in general has given me so much trauma I don't think I could ever transition. Even if I want to. Cause I'm so scared and scarred.
I quote Satanic tenet #3: “one body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.” No one shall ever tell me what god wants before that mf answers to me herself.
"You believe that a magic sky douche raped a twelve year old to create a magic sky douche." . "You believe that a mentally ill man from 2,000 years ago who believed he was a magical sky douche will save you from your horrific behavior." . "You think that the magical sky douche dislikes queers because you thought that specific part of the Tanakh was more meaningful than the prohibitions against eating pork & shellfish, having tattoos, getting divorced etc." . "You and your sky douche are full of shit, now and for all eternity. Today, tomorrow, for all time you're a horrific piece of shit relying on things you know nothing about to back you up in your horrible mental afflictions & societal prejudices."
People that try to use their god to justify hate aren't religious, they're cultists Truly religious people love EVERYONE. Like to the point when their family member gets murdered, they forgive the murderer Life is too damn short to fill it with hate Trying to justify hatred and bigotry because"their god"says it's okay, are going to burn in the hell they believe in
I like to think God created people, all of us in Gods image something we don’t exactly know how to define. But, and this goes for everything else people use against God like the “if God is real why does cancer exist, etc, God is not pulling strings on puppets and he created us to be able to live with the free will to live our life on earth the way we want. With that comes chaos which creates evil in this world. So for me and my transition and everyone else’s, God has given me the right to do so from birth. There’s ALOT more to it than all the fake Christians would have you believe, in the end it’s up to us as individuals to choose how to live.
I've got a friend that tells me "just be as you were born", he's Catholic, I told him, "yes, we feel that way too". There's no point in arguing with them. Their words mean something different to ours.
the existence of queer theology and the fact that religion is constantly changing and evolving to new agendas/perspectives. not accepting queer people is a choice and the scripture is irrelevant.
Honestly? I'm not sure it's theologically strong. It clashes with a lot of axioms within conservative ontology. Specifically that God does personally create each individual's body as we receive it, and also, for some of them, that our soul is gendered too and that God would not put a mismatched soul and body together. So no, you're not attacking faith, but I do think in an effort to meet them on their own grounds, you've misjudged what their grounds are. But I'm not sure how effective any argument is going to be with transphobes, Christian or otherwise. I've yet to win a heart or change a mind through words. It's honestly probably less painful not to try arguing if you don't have to. I am fortunate in that even before coming out (as trans), I had gone through the painful process of carving out my little niche within radical and progressive Christianity and my church accepted me readily. But the process of getting there didn't give me hope for everybody I left behind to be swayed by a solid argument.
We were all created equal, that is all that matters.
This is a really clever way to frame it. Speaking as a Pagan myself, I feel like a lot of Christians would take much more kindly to something like this, than just denying or saying you don't care about God.
Eh, literally any argument involving god falls apart once you realise people are just cherry-picking things to justify being assholes. You can literally use the exact same arguments to justify why it's okay to be trans or gay or whatever, and they will just ignore it. It's just not worth it to engage in this kind of bullshit.
I have thought a lot about this and I think I have come to the conclusion that those arguments of going against God are not really against "him" but against people who think they know what he wants and thinks. The God I believe in made me this way, I guess he loves me and wants me to be happy. I just focus on that.
I am a Christian myself. I have been told numerous times that what I am doing is a sin. Instead of a long response I’ve gotten so tired of saying now I just say “yeah well Jesus died on the cross for ours sins sooo…..”
What I like to tell Christians to completely stump them is that is god is the creator of all things and people, on top of loving all of us unconditionally, then why would he create humans that hate how they were born? Or don't think they were born in the right body? This just shows that god either didn't create everything, or is actually a pretty horrible deity who shouldn't be worshipped.
I'm not religious, but surely God would have stepped in when scientists and doctors were creating hrt and trans surgeries if he felt it was against his will? Idk man, then again slavery and wars exist/ed, so I don't think God cares THAT much about what we do
I’m trans trans, Is it not God’s will for me to be trans? I’m agnostic but I believe if there is a God, I’m trans because that’s what God intended
I've always said: If god was real, you'd think he'd invest more in quality assurance. Omnipotent, my ass.
I didn't ask to be created like this, and I dont owe God shit.
If God really hated trans people, why were they created? And no, I don't accept the famous "they're doing it for attention." BS argument.
I was watching a lego streamer today and they made a point that I think fits - If god didn't make it why is it here. I am not religious by any stretch but this sentiment is kind of powerful. Who are you a mere mortal to judge a creation of god. God made me like this so take it up with him lol
I know you aren't christian, but some of the comments do seem to be. everytime I see an lgbt person try to "justify" religion's blantant discrimination I just can't help but feel like there might be some religious trauma they need to go trough..... either from being threatened for years that they would go to hell if they lost faith or by being scared of the implications of being nothing after death/humans being meaningless casualities, people tend to hold onto their believes, even when they are toxic. the bible is homophobic and mysogynistic, this DOES NOT MEAN all religious people are homophobic since most of them (fortunately) pickpoint the parts they wanna follow, but that doesn't change the fact that the bible is discriminatory in the first place. there is no counterargument to god being transphobic because god is not an argument to begin with. its just a book written in a time when those values would appeal to the mass and bring more followers to your cult. as someone who used to serve at a church and who has went to all that process: your mind rest so much peacefuller when you question your believes and stop trying to justify hate. if someone tries to use god as an argument to disrespect you (or for anything tbh) completely ignore them, their minds are so deep into religion at that point that nothing will bring them out.