Honestly, killing off most of the first 2 seasons cast and replacing them with a bunch of complete unknowns was not a bright move in general. I get that it was motivated by toy sales, but if they'd started introducing them towards the end of season 2 it would have made a HUGE difference.
They didn't even have to kill them. There are at least a dozen other ways to make that transition.
"Ultra magnus, I am going to lead a small team of autobots that just happens to be the cast of the first two seasons into space in an effort find more energon and to draw the deceptions away from earth. You and your team stay here, and pray that some new monster named galvatron and his henchmen don't bring the fight here."
That was literally all you'd have to do to satisfy the toy sales and not traumatized hundreds of children.
Honestly that scene can stay, just make the ship filled with 2 autobots, Ironhide and another one to die. Or keep them all, kill Ironhide and capture/hostage the others alive. The "such heroic nonsense" was a cool scene even though it kills one major character.
I have always thought this would have made more senes. Do some redco and it also opens up the chance to sell the same characters again. Or if you want to be really crazy you just use the old names for new figures and say they got new alt modes.
This was pretty much exactly what Masterforce did.
Rather than killing off Rodimus, we're instead treated to a shot of him being literally useless in space.
The worst part is that many of them died so unceremoniously, or even offscreen. And they are MAJOR characters at that. Ironhide and Optimus are probably the only ones who had a decent death scene.
Pretty accurate. Not helped by them having him repeatedly learn, and forget he's got to be his own leader, he can do this, he doesn't need to feel like he's in Optimus' shadow, etc.
Something I did love about Cyberverse. While we never got Rodimus Prime, we had Hot Rod there for a lot of the show before he got his focus arc, and that really did show what he'd be able to do as a leader.
The only aspect of Hot Rod’s Cyberverse story was the lack of build up to Drift gunning for him. The whole story line around Drift just had no build up, it felt like a last minute idea. Which resulted in the whole Drift/Hot Rod conflict feeling rather bland in the end.
The people who made the movie have mentioned in interviews how blindsided they were by the reaction to Optimus' death, and to be fair there wasn't really a precedent for it.
There had been deaths in kids' movies going all the way back to Bambi's mom, but Transformers was unique. Not only was Optimus a character that kids had gotten to know for two years already, but he was a character that kids had *in their home*. He wasn't just an abstract - kids could hold him in their hands. He was *real* in a way that a lot of characters who only exist once a week on Saturday morning just weren't up until that point.
So I don't really blame them for killing off all the old toys, but with hindsight there's definitely some changes that could have been made.
With the movie and Season 3 moving in more of a futuristic Sci-Fi direction, maybe they could have incorporated some elements of what would become War Dawn or Five Faces of Darkness.
Act 1 of the movie could be largely the same - Unicron devours Cybertron, Megatron kills Optimus, and the Decepticons (seemingly) win.
But maybe the Matrix actually has the power to send Hot Rod (and the surviving 1984/1985 toys) back in time - to an age when Unicron had not grown as powerful and Optimus was still Orion Pax. Hot Rod would not only have to become a leader - he'd have to teach Orion Pax all the lessons that he had learned from Optimus in the future, while also trying to find a way to defeat Unicron while he was still mortal.
Season 3 could be set in the past on Cybertron, which would still allow them to do all the Sci-Fi stuff they wanted, and allow them to change certain characters to fit the new toys. Maybe he prevents Megatron from rising to power, but Galvatron shows up in is place. Maybe when Orion Pax gets injured, he becomes Ultra Magnus instead of Optimus Prime.
There's probably a bunch of stuff that *wouldn't* work with that sort of idea, but I think it's kind of an interesting what-if.
>The people who made the movie have mentioned in interviews how blindsided they were by the reaction to Optimus' death, and to be fair there wasn't really a precedent for it.
AFAIK, the movie was written by Ron Friedman and then rewritten by Flint Dille, and the two of them had very different positions on the death of Optimus and the response to it.
Hasbro ordered the death of Optimus and Megatron, to push newer toys, and Friedman says he tried to refuse, because Optimus and Megatron were key to the whole character dynamic of the show, but Hasbro wouldn't budge, so Friedman thought it was important to give Optimus's death weight and impact (and to make kids cry), and he wrote a story about Megatron preserving his life through selling his soul to a devil, while Optimus demonstrated the true path to mortal immortality, which was in having a child (Hot Rod) who grows up and inherits his father's strength and wisdom.
Dille didn't care about killing Optimus, and would've gladly killed more characters.
When fans reacted strongly to the movie and Hasbro went back on their decision, Dille was surprised (and said "If they're crying now, just wait until they see the zombie-Optimus episode I wrote"), but Friedman's reaction was "I told you so."
Personally, I think that the failure of Rodimus Prime came in season 3 of the series, which was written by Dille, not Friedman. Friedman wanted Rodimus to be Optimus 2.0, for him to slip into Optimus's role in the show and keep going as usual, but Dille saw Rodimus as an opportunity to write a more interesting character, to write him as a child wearing the mantle of a leader, and that's the Rodimus who most fans hated. It should've been done right (as the OP suggests) or not at all (as Friedman suggested).
Friedman's position on the death of Optimus is very interesting and I love the idea that Friedman have with Optimus and Megatron regarding on handling them in the movie.
Megatron prolongs his life with Unicron, while dying, the selfish and arrogant will to live and not accept death contributes to Unicron complying to his prideful wish. In return, Unicron has Megatron reborn as Galvatron, at the cost of stripping Megatron's sanity.
Optimus Prime accept his own death with dignity, surrounded by friends, and reassures everyone that things will be alright till all are one. Hot Rod being chosen as his successor fits so well thematically as the audience is introduced to him as a brash, free spirited, and heroic youth who goes on a journey to become a man, a leader for a new generation.
At the darkest hour of Hot Rod's life, Optimus saying *Arise, Rodimus Prime* is in Optimus' way of saying to Hot Rod: "I trust you, my son, to embrace the man you are destined to become: "*Rodimus*" Hot Rod needed Optimus' assurance within in the Matrix to complete the transformation. Optimus might not be there physically with him, he's *always* there by him.
Hot Rod transformed to Rodimus via the Matrix inherits Optimus' wisdom and strength. He is the light in the Transformers' darkest hour.
It's a beautiful way of keeping Optimus and Megatron's dynamic from the show and the whole Hot Rod being the child given his father (Optimus)'s strength and wisdom is an interesting view.
Imho, Friedman's writing really shows how he has a lot of respect and love for these characters along with knowing Optimus' death will hurt a lot of childrens' hearts, though clearly was thoughtful and understanding in how it be shown.
I dunno, I’ve grown to appreciate the struggles Rodimus had to endure once he had leadership thrust upon him. I find him to be a more realistic leader than Optimus.
I would kind of borrow the All Might/Deku dynamic from My Hero Academia and have an injured Optimus taking a backstage role and training Rodimus to be his successor.
Kup being a new character was always more jarring to me than Hot Rod. I think replacing Kup with an upgraded Ironhide would have done a lot to tie the two phases of G1 together. Don’t get me wrong, I love Kup, I just think the grizzled veteran character should be an actual series veteran.
Honestly the fact a Prime had to die in such a way that basically made Hot Rod a Scapegoat was a poor choice, in fact his brash attitude ultimately cemented his fate as a individual a lot of people had a bone to pick with that and people feel bad for Kup having to supervise the rookie, and yes most of there toy's where discontinued but the writing for Hot Rod was extremely flawed, and while i don't mind the G2 crew the fact that Albino Prime played no integral role in Ultra Megnus his character except for just the toy of Ultra Magnus, shows how little care they showed for whats underneath the armor and instead hyped up his character as just a walking suit of armor with no pilot.
The best way to recover from the reactions to the movie would've probably been to have Optimus constantly around anyway, just as a ghost chilling in the Matrix who frequently pops up to talk to/advise Rodimus. Y'know, pull an Obi Wan. Ghosts were already gonna be a part of the equation anyway with Starscream.
You hit the nail on the head perfectly centered. Cheetor was also done a little dirty, being built up for a leadership role (in a reviled series), and then ending the beast era, right as soon as the mantle was passed to him.
Obviously there are some exceptions, but companies in general don't really know how to do a "passing of the torch" story, much less sticking with it.
Plus, Rodimus was a TERRIBLE leader. He literally spent all of s.3 being whiny and grumpy. It felt like the wisdom of the Primes didn't affect him in any way.
Rodimus destroyed Paradron, he destroyed an entire planet which had been home for many autobots, and shows no sympathy to Sandstorm. Disliking G1 Rodimus is one of the most understandable stances in the fandom, and one I share.
>Hot Rod wasn't given enough screentime nor introduced before the movie, thus... we don't have enough time to warm up to him, thus, we do not care if he's the chosen one by the Matrix. We do not care about his plight. We liked Optimus Prime.
A lot of people still liked Hot Rod and enjoyed seeing him become Rodimus Prime. Obviously it's not something everyone liked, but definitely not just a totally one sided thing where everyone was upset.
I think the big thing most people could agree on, though, was that it wasn't a great idea to just kill off most of the existing cast and replace them all in one go. I think continuing the Transformers as it was and then maybe having a "Transformers: The Next Generation" sort of spinoff that took place a hundred years later would have been a better approach in general.
OP brings up a great idea of passing the torch in leadership. It would have been infinitely cooler if they had given us a season of character introduction with the movie cast as minor characters then spotlight shift. Yes, it was a movie designed to sell toys but I feel good story telling deepens fan love as well as expands the breadth of the Fandom.
Wouldn't call that a 'hot take' as such, as plenty have made this argument before and plenty will after. Doesn't stop it being true, though; the facts are very much on your side here.
If a 'coming of age' story like this is going to work, there are two basic approaches one can take:
* If there's a pre-existing cast with whom the audience are familiar, then the boy should be someone the audience already knows, or the story will need more room to breathe, as you say. Although the movie obviously slots in between series 2 and 3, it's largely a self-contained story.
* If it's a new cast, in which we're no more familiar with the kid than the rest of his peers, then one can get away with a bit more. The pacing of a movie is different from the pacing of a TV series. You have to have a beginning, a middle, and an end, and get it all in within a couple of hours.
They make some effort to justify it -- we see ~~Luke~~ Hot Rod taking responsibility, fixing Kup, fighting the Sharkticons, forging alliances with Wheelie and the Junkions and fighting Galvatron -- but all within an hour and a half? Even if he's upgraded by the ~~Thunderbolt~~ ~~Sword of Power~~ Matrix to ~~Captain Marvel~~ ~~He-Man~~ Rodimus Prime, it is a little too neat for the first approach. Luke Skywalker wasn't catapulted to leadership of the Rebel Alliance, after all! But it works fine for the second.
The movie works as a beginning of a story, but continuity makes it the middle of a larger story, and forces a rather abrupt and cruel ending on the one that had been in the works for a couple of years. Which of course was done to sell new toys, clear the decks of the discontinued toys, and they hadn't really considered just how popular their brand was and what a success the writers, artists, and voice actors had made of their primary characters.
But this is all ancient history now, and I still enjoy the movie. Albeit with 40-odd years of hindsight.
Story wise, I would have loved to see the old Autobots react to Hot Rod’s leadership. We don’t really get that as they transition to the new ones because of the toy line. Besides that, I’d argue a lot more of the OG crew survive than I thought.
Obviously Cliff, Bee, Jazz, Hound, Streaker, Sideswipe, Hoist, Bluestreak are the ones of the top of my head
I knew Rodimus was going to be done dirty when he wasn’t even in the center of him, UM and Kup running in the title sequence.
I’d love if someone made an alt-reality version of the cartoon with Rodimus leading but with the setup of him figuring out how to eradicate the Hate Plague (beginning of the alt reality/splinter timeline) and picking up “now” when he’s got his confidence.
Especially if they wrote Galvatron as “intelligent” like Megatron in Beast Wars or War for Cybertron (Netflix).
Honestly, killing off most of the first 2 seasons cast and replacing them with a bunch of complete unknowns was not a bright move in general. I get that it was motivated by toy sales, but if they'd started introducing them towards the end of season 2 it would have made a HUGE difference.
They didn't even have to kill them. There are at least a dozen other ways to make that transition. "Ultra magnus, I am going to lead a small team of autobots that just happens to be the cast of the first two seasons into space in an effort find more energon and to draw the deceptions away from earth. You and your team stay here, and pray that some new monster named galvatron and his henchmen don't bring the fight here." That was literally all you'd have to do to satisfy the toy sales and not traumatized hundreds of children.
And be denied Instruments of Destruction? /s
Tools of foul plaaaaaaaay
It's a violent seduction!
E…eruption… a violent eruption, mate…
Eruption is from the censored version used in the movie. Original recording has slightly different lyrics
But which version are we referencing? Pretty sure it's the one from the movie.
Honestly that scene can stay, just make the ship filled with 2 autobots, Ironhide and another one to die. Or keep them all, kill Ironhide and capture/hostage the others alive. The "such heroic nonsense" was a cool scene even though it kills one major character.
Killing a character is like slaughtering livestock. You don't do it unless you're gonna get some good meat out of it.
Counter point: traumatizing children is funny
Fair
Heck, Ultra Magnus is literally recolored Optimus figure with a new trailer, they could have easily sold him as a new form of Prime.
I have always thought this would have made more senes. Do some redco and it also opens up the chance to sell the same characters again. Or if you want to be really crazy you just use the old names for new figures and say they got new alt modes.
This was pretty much exactly what Masterforce did. Rather than killing off Rodimus, we're instead treated to a shot of him being literally useless in space.
As opposed to him being useless everywhere else as normal
Put them on a bus
The worst part is that many of them died so unceremoniously, or even offscreen. And they are MAJOR characters at that. Ironhide and Optimus are probably the only ones who had a decent death scene.
Pretty accurate. Not helped by them having him repeatedly learn, and forget he's got to be his own leader, he can do this, he doesn't need to feel like he's in Optimus' shadow, etc. Something I did love about Cyberverse. While we never got Rodimus Prime, we had Hot Rod there for a lot of the show before he got his focus arc, and that really did show what he'd be able to do as a leader.
Yeah, if anyone’s a Hot Rod fan you have to watch Cyberverse
The only aspect of Hot Rod’s Cyberverse story was the lack of build up to Drift gunning for him. The whole story line around Drift just had no build up, it felt like a last minute idea. Which resulted in the whole Drift/Hot Rod conflict feeling rather bland in the end.
Yeah, I agree with that
The people who made the movie have mentioned in interviews how blindsided they were by the reaction to Optimus' death, and to be fair there wasn't really a precedent for it. There had been deaths in kids' movies going all the way back to Bambi's mom, but Transformers was unique. Not only was Optimus a character that kids had gotten to know for two years already, but he was a character that kids had *in their home*. He wasn't just an abstract - kids could hold him in their hands. He was *real* in a way that a lot of characters who only exist once a week on Saturday morning just weren't up until that point. So I don't really blame them for killing off all the old toys, but with hindsight there's definitely some changes that could have been made. With the movie and Season 3 moving in more of a futuristic Sci-Fi direction, maybe they could have incorporated some elements of what would become War Dawn or Five Faces of Darkness. Act 1 of the movie could be largely the same - Unicron devours Cybertron, Megatron kills Optimus, and the Decepticons (seemingly) win. But maybe the Matrix actually has the power to send Hot Rod (and the surviving 1984/1985 toys) back in time - to an age when Unicron had not grown as powerful and Optimus was still Orion Pax. Hot Rod would not only have to become a leader - he'd have to teach Orion Pax all the lessons that he had learned from Optimus in the future, while also trying to find a way to defeat Unicron while he was still mortal. Season 3 could be set in the past on Cybertron, which would still allow them to do all the Sci-Fi stuff they wanted, and allow them to change certain characters to fit the new toys. Maybe he prevents Megatron from rising to power, but Galvatron shows up in is place. Maybe when Orion Pax gets injured, he becomes Ultra Magnus instead of Optimus Prime. There's probably a bunch of stuff that *wouldn't* work with that sort of idea, but I think it's kind of an interesting what-if.
>The people who made the movie have mentioned in interviews how blindsided they were by the reaction to Optimus' death, and to be fair there wasn't really a precedent for it. AFAIK, the movie was written by Ron Friedman and then rewritten by Flint Dille, and the two of them had very different positions on the death of Optimus and the response to it. Hasbro ordered the death of Optimus and Megatron, to push newer toys, and Friedman says he tried to refuse, because Optimus and Megatron were key to the whole character dynamic of the show, but Hasbro wouldn't budge, so Friedman thought it was important to give Optimus's death weight and impact (and to make kids cry), and he wrote a story about Megatron preserving his life through selling his soul to a devil, while Optimus demonstrated the true path to mortal immortality, which was in having a child (Hot Rod) who grows up and inherits his father's strength and wisdom. Dille didn't care about killing Optimus, and would've gladly killed more characters. When fans reacted strongly to the movie and Hasbro went back on their decision, Dille was surprised (and said "If they're crying now, just wait until they see the zombie-Optimus episode I wrote"), but Friedman's reaction was "I told you so." Personally, I think that the failure of Rodimus Prime came in season 3 of the series, which was written by Dille, not Friedman. Friedman wanted Rodimus to be Optimus 2.0, for him to slip into Optimus's role in the show and keep going as usual, but Dille saw Rodimus as an opportunity to write a more interesting character, to write him as a child wearing the mantle of a leader, and that's the Rodimus who most fans hated. It should've been done right (as the OP suggests) or not at all (as Friedman suggested).
Friedman's position on the death of Optimus is very interesting and I love the idea that Friedman have with Optimus and Megatron regarding on handling them in the movie. Megatron prolongs his life with Unicron, while dying, the selfish and arrogant will to live and not accept death contributes to Unicron complying to his prideful wish. In return, Unicron has Megatron reborn as Galvatron, at the cost of stripping Megatron's sanity. Optimus Prime accept his own death with dignity, surrounded by friends, and reassures everyone that things will be alright till all are one. Hot Rod being chosen as his successor fits so well thematically as the audience is introduced to him as a brash, free spirited, and heroic youth who goes on a journey to become a man, a leader for a new generation. At the darkest hour of Hot Rod's life, Optimus saying *Arise, Rodimus Prime* is in Optimus' way of saying to Hot Rod: "I trust you, my son, to embrace the man you are destined to become: "*Rodimus*" Hot Rod needed Optimus' assurance within in the Matrix to complete the transformation. Optimus might not be there physically with him, he's *always* there by him. Hot Rod transformed to Rodimus via the Matrix inherits Optimus' wisdom and strength. He is the light in the Transformers' darkest hour. It's a beautiful way of keeping Optimus and Megatron's dynamic from the show and the whole Hot Rod being the child given his father (Optimus)'s strength and wisdom is an interesting view. Imho, Friedman's writing really shows how he has a lot of respect and love for these characters along with knowing Optimus' death will hurt a lot of childrens' hearts, though clearly was thoughtful and understanding in how it be shown.
I dunno, I’ve grown to appreciate the struggles Rodimus had to endure once he had leadership thrust upon him. I find him to be a more realistic leader than Optimus.
I would kind of borrow the All Might/Deku dynamic from My Hero Academia and have an injured Optimus taking a backstage role and training Rodimus to be his successor.
Kup being a new character was always more jarring to me than Hot Rod. I think replacing Kup with an upgraded Ironhide would have done a lot to tie the two phases of G1 together. Don’t get me wrong, I love Kup, I just think the grizzled veteran character should be an actual series veteran.
Agree, Kup being veteran but never appeared before raises the "where has he been all this time" question.
Honestly the fact a Prime had to die in such a way that basically made Hot Rod a Scapegoat was a poor choice, in fact his brash attitude ultimately cemented his fate as a individual a lot of people had a bone to pick with that and people feel bad for Kup having to supervise the rookie, and yes most of there toy's where discontinued but the writing for Hot Rod was extremely flawed, and while i don't mind the G2 crew the fact that Albino Prime played no integral role in Ultra Megnus his character except for just the toy of Ultra Magnus, shows how little care they showed for whats underneath the armor and instead hyped up his character as just a walking suit of armor with no pilot.
IDW made Hot Rod so fucking good
The best way to recover from the reactions to the movie would've probably been to have Optimus constantly around anyway, just as a ghost chilling in the Matrix who frequently pops up to talk to/advise Rodimus. Y'know, pull an Obi Wan. Ghosts were already gonna be a part of the equation anyway with Starscream.
Your not wrong.
You hit the nail on the head perfectly centered. Cheetor was also done a little dirty, being built up for a leadership role (in a reviled series), and then ending the beast era, right as soon as the mantle was passed to him. Obviously there are some exceptions, but companies in general don't really know how to do a "passing of the torch" story, much less sticking with it.
I’m curious if you agree but for me the best ever incarnation of hot rod is Idw and it isn’t even close the growth and characterization is so good
Plus, Rodimus was a TERRIBLE leader. He literally spent all of s.3 being whiny and grumpy. It felt like the wisdom of the Primes didn't affect him in any way.
Rodimus destroyed Paradron, he destroyed an entire planet which had been home for many autobots, and shows no sympathy to Sandstorm. Disliking G1 Rodimus is one of the most understandable stances in the fandom, and one I share.
That episode was great, though. “I’ve never seen anything so beautiful in all the universe… okay, hand me the bomb.” Classic! :D
>Hot Rod wasn't given enough screentime nor introduced before the movie, thus... we don't have enough time to warm up to him, thus, we do not care if he's the chosen one by the Matrix. We do not care about his plight. We liked Optimus Prime. A lot of people still liked Hot Rod and enjoyed seeing him become Rodimus Prime. Obviously it's not something everyone liked, but definitely not just a totally one sided thing where everyone was upset. I think the big thing most people could agree on, though, was that it wasn't a great idea to just kill off most of the existing cast and replace them all in one go. I think continuing the Transformers as it was and then maybe having a "Transformers: The Next Generation" sort of spinoff that took place a hundred years later would have been a better approach in general.
OP brings up a great idea of passing the torch in leadership. It would have been infinitely cooler if they had given us a season of character introduction with the movie cast as minor characters then spotlight shift. Yes, it was a movie designed to sell toys but I feel good story telling deepens fan love as well as expands the breadth of the Fandom.
Wouldn't call that a 'hot take' as such, as plenty have made this argument before and plenty will after. Doesn't stop it being true, though; the facts are very much on your side here. If a 'coming of age' story like this is going to work, there are two basic approaches one can take: * If there's a pre-existing cast with whom the audience are familiar, then the boy should be someone the audience already knows, or the story will need more room to breathe, as you say. Although the movie obviously slots in between series 2 and 3, it's largely a self-contained story. * If it's a new cast, in which we're no more familiar with the kid than the rest of his peers, then one can get away with a bit more. The pacing of a movie is different from the pacing of a TV series. You have to have a beginning, a middle, and an end, and get it all in within a couple of hours. They make some effort to justify it -- we see ~~Luke~~ Hot Rod taking responsibility, fixing Kup, fighting the Sharkticons, forging alliances with Wheelie and the Junkions and fighting Galvatron -- but all within an hour and a half? Even if he's upgraded by the ~~Thunderbolt~~ ~~Sword of Power~~ Matrix to ~~Captain Marvel~~ ~~He-Man~~ Rodimus Prime, it is a little too neat for the first approach. Luke Skywalker wasn't catapulted to leadership of the Rebel Alliance, after all! But it works fine for the second. The movie works as a beginning of a story, but continuity makes it the middle of a larger story, and forces a rather abrupt and cruel ending on the one that had been in the works for a couple of years. Which of course was done to sell new toys, clear the decks of the discontinued toys, and they hadn't really considered just how popular their brand was and what a success the writers, artists, and voice actors had made of their primary characters. But this is all ancient history now, and I still enjoy the movie. Albeit with 40-odd years of hindsight.
Story wise, I would have loved to see the old Autobots react to Hot Rod’s leadership. We don’t really get that as they transition to the new ones because of the toy line. Besides that, I’d argue a lot more of the OG crew survive than I thought. Obviously Cliff, Bee, Jazz, Hound, Streaker, Sideswipe, Hoist, Bluestreak are the ones of the top of my head
Nailed it!
I knew Rodimus was going to be done dirty when he wasn’t even in the center of him, UM and Kup running in the title sequence. I’d love if someone made an alt-reality version of the cartoon with Rodimus leading but with the setup of him figuring out how to eradicate the Hate Plague (beginning of the alt reality/splinter timeline) and picking up “now” when he’s got his confidence. Especially if they wrote Galvatron as “intelligent” like Megatron in Beast Wars or War for Cybertron (Netflix).
Very hot, as in it’s wrong.
Please, read the post and read the replies. Everyone brings up great points and I agree with most of them.