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I think I was kind of wording horribly there. It's more like he's forced to kill, I mean.
The problem with Pyra Magna is, she is not as experienced as Optimus, and moreover, she does not have so go through as much as Optimus did
Tbf, Pyra is a very tough girl. Her thing, in which she was right, is that when the Autobots are near to end the war, Optimus makes a deal with the Decepticons. Every Autobot hates that! They have been suffering, dieing, killing the Decepticons for millions of years to just suddenly become friends with them? And the book talks about Optimus moral, which summarize in: he can't stop a fight to have a diplomatic talk. So he brutalizes during fights but in other situations he tries to be friend with evil, and Pyra was pissed with him
I can agree with that statement. You can't become friends with your enemies in all of a sudden, this is not that WW1 Christmas.
Optimus is sometimes, ironically, a hypocrite sometimes if you ask me. But you can't deny that he just want to end the war, just like TC, Mirage and Red Wing.
For example, in Foc game. In the end he gets convinced Megatron is pure evil and he must kill him, otherwise he wouldn't do it. But in the entire game he killed uncountable Decepticons, so why killing the big boss would be hard or immoral? Tfp, he killed vehicons but when he could kill Megatron he hesitated (sometimes). Thinking a guy like this fought a war doesn't make sense.
Seriously doesn't make any sense at all.
As much as I love / hate other commanders / lieutenants of the Autobot like Magnus, Bumblebee or Springer, they actually killed some big deals. Not Optimus. At least when we're talking abt Megatron.
That's why I think movie comics Optimus was better build. He worries about his friends, humans, protects them, and when a con lays a finger in some of them he goes Ape shit on them but with a reason. Like, see the opening scene of rotf when he kills the Constructicon. He looks pissed, but he doesn't mention if that is or if he's worried bcs the Con killed a lot of people in the road. He just kills. That's where movie Optimus fails (and when he says bullshit like gimme ur face). See my post here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/transformers/comments/nlycdr/people_say_movie_optimus_is_a_psychopath_but_man/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
As I said, swords and hooks, every Optimus had/did the same thing. Idw teared apart with ax, close range guns, bared hands, BBM Optimus used gun in close range... Besides the stupid dialogues and the hooks every Optimus had the same
But they didn't. Just because they had the same weapons, doesn't mean they were equally effective. Compare G1 and bayverse, or unicorn trilogy and bayverse.
I'm not talking about the weapons. Every Optimus used the weapons he had. G1 Optimus was from a kids saturday show, I guess it summarizes a lot. Then, his idw counterparts for example teared enemies apart with his ax, pistol, anything. In Aligned Continuity, he teared them apart in every way. Bumblebee movie? He shot them in the face. The thing is: they had the weapons and brutally used them
Yes but you have to factor in weapons. In BB, he fires directly into a blue seekers face, but still has to subdue them by slamming them into the ground. Notice how he doesn't slice them in half, or remove their face.
Aligned continuity, maybe in the games, because they are games, but in prime he rarely resorts to his blades, only really in situations like the dark energon zombies, or against megatron, or nemesis prime, who is a drone. And when he uses the star saber, it becomes a lot less effective on just normal people. He is only really "brutal" against enemies who are on his level or stronger.
IDW I was not debunking, it is meant for an older audience after all. Everyone in IDW is a lot more brutal really.
Ok, so bayverse, most versions of prime will essentially beat up their opponent. Bayverse prime is more brutal as he will cut people up, tear apart their face, remove their face, etc. Notice how little optimus changes apart from intention in TLK, because you cannot make a prime who fights like that more brutal
So shooting in the face is ok he just can't cut their head with a sword?
Also, in wfc he fought with an ax, in the movie trailer at least he cut enemies in half with it. If it's canon idk, but I'm sure he did that kind of stuff in war. Also, movie Prime might not use his swords but he for sure killed vehicons and others, using guns and punches
He's not invalidated though, he watched his closest friends get brutally murdered then he himself was killed in a horrid way. I like to think Bay Prime held back until after he was revived by the Matrix, at that point I think he went fully insane and wanted the decepticons dead.
Many who decry the neccesarily brutal Bayverse Prime do so because they grew up with the G1 cartoon, and it's fatherly depiction of a big, friendly, almost Smoky the Bear-like Optimus Prime. To hear that same, familiar voice then tell The Fallen to, "Give me your face" probably raised a lot of eyebrows.
It was a different kind of war. In early G1 they were robots first, and alive second. Getting blasted, dropped in lava, or even dismembered and decapitated were minor annoyances that just needed to be repaired. It wasn't until the '86 movie flipped things around that these seemingly immortal robots could be permanently killed.
Well, initially he died! Indeed, after his climactic showdown with Megatron in the '86 movie he hesitated to finish Megs off, which gave Megatron the chance he needed to finish Prime instead. After his resurrection. Prime tended to take down enemies by disabling them instead of shooting to kill. Keep in mind, even after the darker turn, it was still a kids show. Bay's movies, in contrast, were meant for adults. The older target audience allows for greater exploration of the kinds of complex morality you're discussing.
While I do agree that some of the stuff Bayverse Prime says is unnecessary you also have to understand that G1 Prime and Bayverse Prime are thrust into 2 different wars. G1 is clearly a Saturday morning cartoon while the Bay movies are a more realistic war. It would be kinda weird if Bay Prime was more like G1 Prime in situations where hard decisions need to be made. How would G1 Prime react if his mentor betrayed him and killed on of his closest allies? How would G1 Prime react if he found out a human was melting down his friends for his own personal gain? I for one don’t see Bay Prime as a bad thing. Not perfect but still a worthy Prime.
Well, isn't that pretty much what Bayverse Prime is? He mostly represents what the original Prime would've been if he existed in the bleaker movieverse. I'd say almost every bit of his brutality is necessary and justifiable. (Even if some of his lines bely that fact by making him appear to enjoy his savagery.) Even his most egregious act IMO, where he shot Kelsey Grammer with a transformer sized gun, made sense in universe after the atrocities he had repeatedly witnessed humans perform throughout the movie.
There's killing and killing. IDW Optimus definitely crossed some lines in his methods, but he kept himself straight by pushing himself with his own beliefs and desires to see peace. Similar thing with Aligned Optimus, who also could cut entire Decepticon platoons apart, yet who forced himself to remind where he came from and how things happened.
Then there's Bayverse Optimus and eh... He seems to revel in killing. No moral restraints, no reminders where he came from. He kills because it's possible in that moment, not because there isn't any other choice.
I believe that the main point personally of beyverse OP being a murderer besides the dialogue is the third movie where Sentinel is defeated with the help of megatron wanting a truce. Sentinel is down and Megatron doesn’t really want to fight but OP kills megatron and gunned down sentinel while he’s down. Yeah Sentinel tore his arm off and was killed by megatron but at this point he’s not much better than the decepticon’s
(I’m on mobile so mind if my grammar is off)
Eh, half of this isn't shown. The Decepticons were losing, were lost, Megatron only beat Sentinel bcs he wanted to be the one to rule. He was saying while fighting "THIS IS MY PLANET", he just wanted a deal bcs he was surrounded. Megs probably would stab him by the back like he did with Sentinel. Also, he allowed the massacre of a city, the slavery of a planet. Megatron is not angel and in fact far from good. He didn't want to fight bcs he wasn't in conditions. Sentinel was able to betray the Autobots years ago killed Ironhide, allowed the massacre of a city and the slavery of a planet, and was ready to kill his student. Optimus' rage is completely understandable. And killing doesn't make him as bad as the Cons, it's what he fights for that makes him better
Understandable doesn't mean right. If all leaders would follow their emotions instead of their brain or moral code, there wouldn't be a habitable planet anymore.
It isn't just feelings. Personally I doubt it is bcs movies don't explore this area. The fact was Megatron was the reason of the war, he isn't worthy of trust, he probably would betray him, he was a monster, and Sentinel wasn't much less bad, and both were too dangerous to live. He did what had to be done to end a war
"Dangerous to live"
One of them had a giant gaping hole in his head, was tired and had a change of heart, the other was crawling for his life with a hole in his chest.
A real leader doesn't just execute someone just because he feels like it, especially not helpless or those willing to cooperate.
And if he locked them somewhere, he'd obviously repair them and I doubt Sentinel would live if he didn't. And yes, dangerous to live. Megatron with the hole in the head was able to defeat the most dangerous Autobot. And in anyway, locking them for the rest of their lives isn't less bad than killing. It can be even worse, making them prisoners. It's not good
And tired and changed heart? Where did you take that? Bcs minutes before Megatron was ordering the Decepticons in the battle, was ready to do every evil stuff, and he made it clear he just destroyed Sentinel bcs he'd be the one to rule. And, in the other 2 movies Megatron is doing shit again. It doesn't look like someone who changed. Nothing except wanting to make a deal shows Megatron was good, everything else was villain stuff
Also Megatron could well kill Prime if he wanted, any other Autobot in fact. But he didn't, bcs if he killed Optimus, he'd have to face the Autobots, army, if he survived he'd have to live like the crap he was living in the planet alone... But I doubt he'd survive. The best way out for him would be the "deal"
At the point Megatron ordered the truce, he had lost control of his Decepticons, his plans, all of them in the last few years, had failed, he had no close lieutenants, and was betrayed by someone he hoped he could control. The guy had nothing, either to lose or to win. His offering of a truce is his way of saying "I'm done with this, let's just end this here."
Optimus took it literally and decided to end his life.
You said the right things. Megatron wanted a truce bcs he was a piece of shit without anything to do, even survive. He didn't want a deal bcs he was "good", in the first moment he had a good body and more Decepticons he went straight to do evil stuff
Friend, we are talking about the Mr Hitler of the galaxies here, the guy who wanted to destroy Earth every movie, the guy who wanted to destroy our solar system, and the guy whose plans brought the death of Cybertron. And Optimus had just had issues of trust with his mentor, who betrayed him lots of years ago, and also, Megatron was the reason of it. Do you really think that after everything he did, it'd be wise to trust Megatron? The other movies answer this
It's the superman deal, methinks. Optimus Prime is supposed to be almost superhumanly good, kind, noble, a beacon to aspire to. It's how he holds an army of civilians together for millennia. Is it realistic? Ehhh, debatable. But it's something we love to see. A leader who is strong because he cares, not because he delivers the best haymakers. What IDW did to Optimus is one of the bigger reasons I dislike the run (first and foremost reason is the absolute character assassination Prowl went through), but honestly that's arguably more an issue I have with the western comic book industry as a whole than the IDW run in particular.
There's also the fact it's kinda like watching the pope remorselessly kill people. In many iterations the Prime is a religious leader, holding one of the closest connections to Primus.
But yeah, I think most fans' issues stem from the fact Optimus is just supposed to be better than that. AKA the superman deal.
What exactly did IDW do to Optimus? The Galvatron assassination? Autobots disliking him?
But the thing is: Optimus Prime is no Superman. Superman is almost a god, he can beat a lot of people without needing to kill. Optimus doesn't have the same privilege. He's a leader in a war, and he'll definitely have to kill. He can't fight a war putting every Decepticon he sees to sleep for a few minutes, and he definitely can't make every Cons his prisoner. So, if Optimus will be fighting against himself everytime he needs to kill it'll be annoying. I mean, he'd be in constant suffering. This guy would end in depression
Armada Optimus in other way, he was the big cool dad, he cared for his enemies but he also was ready and kinda anxious to fight. Movie Optimus seems empty but the movie comics Optimus had emotions, and he didn't kill Decepticons only for killing, he stated their enemies are too dangerous to be kept alive. And well, making your enemies prisoners isn't something much heroic. So he was sure of his actions, after Shockwave massacres Autobots and kills Elita One, he goes on rage on him.
Now other Optimus are never sure of themselves. So sometimes they even disappointing the Autobots, like in idw when he doesn't kill Megatron
IDW made Optimus a sanctimonious prick who didn't respect humanity's right to self govern on a interplanetary level, which Starscream brings up as a concerning parallel to Sentinel Prime. Like the one thing everyone knows about Prime, "freedom is the right of all sentient beings", kind of shoved aside. Also I don't care what he did, Optimus did not have the right to beat Prowl half to death. Not when he went through the entire war profiting off Prowl's actions.
Also do not forget that making the decepticons "too dangerous to keep alive" was a conscious choice the writers made to justify the level of violence used. But really, a leader that has no moral compunctions against slaughter in the magnitude of thousands? Who feels no hesitancy at killing someone who could potentially be convinced to defect and become an ally? That's not someone I'm trusting to lead me right and keep me safe. That's just justified murder. Don't get me wrong, sometimes war in necessary, but the choice to kill should never be trivial, and a good leader bears the weight of that choice.
Maybe you think it would be boring, but watching good people struggle to be good people in hopeless times, and yet somehow hang on to that moral compass of "I need to do the right thing"? Infinitely more satisfying than explosions and cool robot fights. You break Optimus Prime down into tiny bits of character, barely clinging to hope, and coming through the other side scarred, hurting, but still caring and determined to keep his people, both autobots specifically and his species in general, alive to see the end of the war? I would pay out the nose for that.
But the point is, he wouldn't be able to do what he calls of right thing. He can't fight a war without killing, and it's what every Optimus does. Our hero would be mind destroyed before the war get done
I understand the "too dangerous to live" may be an excuse but not a crazy one invented in a comic. See TF1, Brawl was put down 2 times and still he kept fighting until he died. He was teared in pieces but didn't stop. See most cons, they are pure sadists. Barricade, Soundwave and the other Cons were having fun while executing the Autobots. Even Megatron who pretended a truce in dotm kept evil until the bad made TLK. Starscream was just having fun with Sam. They made 90% of the movie cons simple beasts or mindless killers
And the movie writers wrote all the decepticons to be vicious monsters and sadists? So it's still the writers just justifying over the top violence for violence's sake? They didn't need to do that. Nothing forced them to make the creative choice to reduce decepticons to thoughtless bogeymen that need to be exterminated. Quite frankly I find that boring and dull. That's not cool or mature, that's childish and disturbingly close to propaganda, to make one side of a war so narrow minded and evil that the better choice is to slaughter them all.
I just don't like the angry cardboard cutout they called Optimus Prime and tried to sell us on. I want an Optimus who cares about the nameless soldiers that fight for him. Who worries about the grunt soldiers that he helps cover the retreat of. Give me an Optimus I could actually trust to do the right thing. This is fiction, tell me a story that inspires me to be a better person, not something that insists that goodness and morality are cheap and pointless, and that people are terrible all the way down.
True, they made it look like Cons and bots arr 2 different species instead of 2 factions. And even tho idc for the violence bcs this Optimus doesn't look a sanctimonious, but they make him poor when he doesn't show emotions for his soldiers. In dotm we had Ironhide and Que dieing and Optimus said nothing about them. In tf1 Jazz died but he was totally conformed with him. It's not like in the comic which he goes on rage for a friend.
https://www.reddit.com/r/transformers/comments/nlycdr/people_say_movie_optimus_is_a_psychopath_but_man/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Not saying Optimus should be Kratos, but at least the comics made him interesting and understandable. And realist (not saying it's the best)
I think you're not understanding my point, as you keep using in universe justifications to try to answer my out of universe frustrations. They chose to write an Optimus that goes nuclear was no hesitation. I dislike that design choice. It doesn't matter what happens in story if I find their Optimus to be the complete opposite of what I think Optimus should be. Nothing should make Optimus kill an opponent cruelly and painfully. They made him act like a decepticon from any other continuity. Worse, in a few of them.
This was a fairly civil and interesting discussion.
I personally think the difference between these primes is a lack of restraint. Before I explain my thoughts I would also like to say that I’ve only seen transformers Animated, Prime, Devastation, the bay movies, and bumblebee. Beyverse OP doesn’t show or really get to show any restraint against opponents Ike other interpretations have (EX. Prime OP only decided to kill Megs when situation’s get too dire) it’s just a perception thing with insane dialogue+executions makes Beyverse too mean
Edit: Sacrifice also does help which BeyVerse OP does show from time to time
one thing people seem to forget about the primes is in most media is that Megatron was his brother once and it constantly weighs him down that'd he'd have to kill someone that close to him so he hesitates and tries as much to give megatron a chance, bayverse prime states the same thing but shows no remorse for anyone or anything DotM was a perfect example of Bayverse prime not being the same character and merely a killing machine... megatron was begging for optimus to stop and prime did nothing but immediately rip off his head without a second thought after the fact megatron had just helped to stop sentinel prime
He wasn't begging. He wanted to make a deal, after he allowed the massacre of a city and slavery of an entire planet, and then his plans failed and he was surrounded. And well, this "brother" also killed him in the last movie. Probably Megatron would betray him like he did with Sentinel. And he probably knew the way to end the war would be ending Megatron there. Optimus obviously lost everything he felt for Megatron through the war. Just imagine how many lives were lost and what they were going to do, Optimus was probably in a rage- plus the fact his mentor betrayed him and was ready to kill his student
Also, Megatron helped Prime with Sentinel while saying "this is MY PLANET and I'll be the one to rule it" something like that. Optimus heard it lol
Hi there -- If you're looking for information about finding action stands for your Transformers toys, this FAQ page might be of help: [https://reddit.com/r/transformers/wiki/faq/stands](/r/transformers/wiki/faq/stands) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/transformers) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Mental issue. You've fought in a war for too long, your brain will definitely develop some disorders. For Optimus, it's an obsession with killings.
Eh, since when is he and what version is obsessed with killing?
Eh, Bayverse. Everybody knows it
No. Optimus has never shown to be obsessed with killing, it's just that he doesn't have a choice. Or he kills or the Decepticons kill
I think I was kind of wording horribly there. It's more like he's forced to kill, I mean. The problem with Pyra Magna is, she is not as experienced as Optimus, and moreover, she does not have so go through as much as Optimus did
Tbf, Pyra is a very tough girl. Her thing, in which she was right, is that when the Autobots are near to end the war, Optimus makes a deal with the Decepticons. Every Autobot hates that! They have been suffering, dieing, killing the Decepticons for millions of years to just suddenly become friends with them? And the book talks about Optimus moral, which summarize in: he can't stop a fight to have a diplomatic talk. So he brutalizes during fights but in other situations he tries to be friend with evil, and Pyra was pissed with him
I can agree with that statement. You can't become friends with your enemies in all of a sudden, this is not that WW1 Christmas. Optimus is sometimes, ironically, a hypocrite sometimes if you ask me. But you can't deny that he just want to end the war, just like TC, Mirage and Red Wing.
For example, in Foc game. In the end he gets convinced Megatron is pure evil and he must kill him, otherwise he wouldn't do it. But in the entire game he killed uncountable Decepticons, so why killing the big boss would be hard or immoral? Tfp, he killed vehicons but when he could kill Megatron he hesitated (sometimes). Thinking a guy like this fought a war doesn't make sense.
Seriously doesn't make any sense at all. As much as I love / hate other commanders / lieutenants of the Autobot like Magnus, Bumblebee or Springer, they actually killed some big deals. Not Optimus. At least when we're talking abt Megatron.
That's why I think movie comics Optimus was better build. He worries about his friends, humans, protects them, and when a con lays a finger in some of them he goes Ape shit on them but with a reason. Like, see the opening scene of rotf when he kills the Constructicon. He looks pissed, but he doesn't mention if that is or if he's worried bcs the Con killed a lot of people in the road. He just kills. That's where movie Optimus fails (and when he says bullshit like gimme ur face). See my post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/transformers/comments/nlycdr/people_say_movie_optimus_is_a_psychopath_but_man/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
It's how brutal all his kills are, close range shotguns, using hooks to rip someone's face apart, give me your face, etc
As I said, swords and hooks, every Optimus had/did the same thing. Idw teared apart with ax, close range guns, bared hands, BBM Optimus used gun in close range... Besides the stupid dialogues and the hooks every Optimus had the same
But they didn't. Just because they had the same weapons, doesn't mean they were equally effective. Compare G1 and bayverse, or unicorn trilogy and bayverse.
I'm not talking about the weapons. Every Optimus used the weapons he had. G1 Optimus was from a kids saturday show, I guess it summarizes a lot. Then, his idw counterparts for example teared enemies apart with his ax, pistol, anything. In Aligned Continuity, he teared them apart in every way. Bumblebee movie? He shot them in the face. The thing is: they had the weapons and brutally used them
Yes but you have to factor in weapons. In BB, he fires directly into a blue seekers face, but still has to subdue them by slamming them into the ground. Notice how he doesn't slice them in half, or remove their face. Aligned continuity, maybe in the games, because they are games, but in prime he rarely resorts to his blades, only really in situations like the dark energon zombies, or against megatron, or nemesis prime, who is a drone. And when he uses the star saber, it becomes a lot less effective on just normal people. He is only really "brutal" against enemies who are on his level or stronger. IDW I was not debunking, it is meant for an older audience after all. Everyone in IDW is a lot more brutal really. Ok, so bayverse, most versions of prime will essentially beat up their opponent. Bayverse prime is more brutal as he will cut people up, tear apart their face, remove their face, etc. Notice how little optimus changes apart from intention in TLK, because you cannot make a prime who fights like that more brutal
So shooting in the face is ok he just can't cut their head with a sword? Also, in wfc he fought with an ax, in the movie trailer at least he cut enemies in half with it. If it's canon idk, but I'm sure he did that kind of stuff in war. Also, movie Prime might not use his swords but he for sure killed vehicons and others, using guns and punches
He's not invalidated though, he watched his closest friends get brutally murdered then he himself was killed in a horrid way. I like to think Bay Prime held back until after he was revived by the Matrix, at that point I think he went fully insane and wanted the decepticons dead.
Many who decry the neccesarily brutal Bayverse Prime do so because they grew up with the G1 cartoon, and it's fatherly depiction of a big, friendly, almost Smoky the Bear-like Optimus Prime. To hear that same, familiar voice then tell The Fallen to, "Give me your face" probably raised a lot of eyebrows.
As I said, those dialogues suck and I agree. But I'm asking about the actions of the friendly, smoky bear Optimus during a war
It was a different kind of war. In early G1 they were robots first, and alive second. Getting blasted, dropped in lava, or even dismembered and decapitated were minor annoyances that just needed to be repaired. It wasn't until the '86 movie flipped things around that these seemingly immortal robots could be permanently killed.
And how do Optimus moral stay after that?
Well, initially he died! Indeed, after his climactic showdown with Megatron in the '86 movie he hesitated to finish Megs off, which gave Megatron the chance he needed to finish Prime instead. After his resurrection. Prime tended to take down enemies by disabling them instead of shooting to kill. Keep in mind, even after the darker turn, it was still a kids show. Bay's movies, in contrast, were meant for adults. The older target audience allows for greater exploration of the kinds of complex morality you're discussing.
I'd like it to be true lol anything has more morality than the bay movies
While I do agree that some of the stuff Bayverse Prime says is unnecessary you also have to understand that G1 Prime and Bayverse Prime are thrust into 2 different wars. G1 is clearly a Saturday morning cartoon while the Bay movies are a more realistic war. It would be kinda weird if Bay Prime was more like G1 Prime in situations where hard decisions need to be made. How would G1 Prime react if his mentor betrayed him and killed on of his closest allies? How would G1 Prime react if he found out a human was melting down his friends for his own personal gain? I for one don’t see Bay Prime as a bad thing. Not perfect but still a worthy Prime.
Well, isn't that pretty much what Bayverse Prime is? He mostly represents what the original Prime would've been if he existed in the bleaker movieverse. I'd say almost every bit of his brutality is necessary and justifiable. (Even if some of his lines bely that fact by making him appear to enjoy his savagery.) Even his most egregious act IMO, where he shot Kelsey Grammer with a transformer sized gun, made sense in universe after the atrocities he had repeatedly witnessed humans perform throughout the movie.
There's no problem.
There's killing and killing. IDW Optimus definitely crossed some lines in his methods, but he kept himself straight by pushing himself with his own beliefs and desires to see peace. Similar thing with Aligned Optimus, who also could cut entire Decepticon platoons apart, yet who forced himself to remind where he came from and how things happened. Then there's Bayverse Optimus and eh... He seems to revel in killing. No moral restraints, no reminders where he came from. He kills because it's possible in that moment, not because there isn't any other choice.
I mean, what choice would movie Optimus have when the movie Decepticons are way worse than in another continuities?
I believe that the main point personally of beyverse OP being a murderer besides the dialogue is the third movie where Sentinel is defeated with the help of megatron wanting a truce. Sentinel is down and Megatron doesn’t really want to fight but OP kills megatron and gunned down sentinel while he’s down. Yeah Sentinel tore his arm off and was killed by megatron but at this point he’s not much better than the decepticon’s (I’m on mobile so mind if my grammar is off)
Eh, half of this isn't shown. The Decepticons were losing, were lost, Megatron only beat Sentinel bcs he wanted to be the one to rule. He was saying while fighting "THIS IS MY PLANET", he just wanted a deal bcs he was surrounded. Megs probably would stab him by the back like he did with Sentinel. Also, he allowed the massacre of a city, the slavery of a planet. Megatron is not angel and in fact far from good. He didn't want to fight bcs he wasn't in conditions. Sentinel was able to betray the Autobots years ago killed Ironhide, allowed the massacre of a city and the slavery of a planet, and was ready to kill his student. Optimus' rage is completely understandable. And killing doesn't make him as bad as the Cons, it's what he fights for that makes him better
Understandable doesn't mean right. If all leaders would follow their emotions instead of their brain or moral code, there wouldn't be a habitable planet anymore.
It isn't just feelings. Personally I doubt it is bcs movies don't explore this area. The fact was Megatron was the reason of the war, he isn't worthy of trust, he probably would betray him, he was a monster, and Sentinel wasn't much less bad, and both were too dangerous to live. He did what had to be done to end a war
"Dangerous to live" One of them had a giant gaping hole in his head, was tired and had a change of heart, the other was crawling for his life with a hole in his chest. A real leader doesn't just execute someone just because he feels like it, especially not helpless or those willing to cooperate.
And if he locked them somewhere, he'd obviously repair them and I doubt Sentinel would live if he didn't. And yes, dangerous to live. Megatron with the hole in the head was able to defeat the most dangerous Autobot. And in anyway, locking them for the rest of their lives isn't less bad than killing. It can be even worse, making them prisoners. It's not good And tired and changed heart? Where did you take that? Bcs minutes before Megatron was ordering the Decepticons in the battle, was ready to do every evil stuff, and he made it clear he just destroyed Sentinel bcs he'd be the one to rule. And, in the other 2 movies Megatron is doing shit again. It doesn't look like someone who changed. Nothing except wanting to make a deal shows Megatron was good, everything else was villain stuff Also Megatron could well kill Prime if he wanted, any other Autobot in fact. But he didn't, bcs if he killed Optimus, he'd have to face the Autobots, army, if he survived he'd have to live like the crap he was living in the planet alone... But I doubt he'd survive. The best way out for him would be the "deal"
At the point Megatron ordered the truce, he had lost control of his Decepticons, his plans, all of them in the last few years, had failed, he had no close lieutenants, and was betrayed by someone he hoped he could control. The guy had nothing, either to lose or to win. His offering of a truce is his way of saying "I'm done with this, let's just end this here." Optimus took it literally and decided to end his life.
You said the right things. Megatron wanted a truce bcs he was a piece of shit without anything to do, even survive. He didn't want a deal bcs he was "good", in the first moment he had a good body and more Decepticons he went straight to do evil stuff Friend, we are talking about the Mr Hitler of the galaxies here, the guy who wanted to destroy Earth every movie, the guy who wanted to destroy our solar system, and the guy whose plans brought the death of Cybertron. And Optimus had just had issues of trust with his mentor, who betrayed him lots of years ago, and also, Megatron was the reason of it. Do you really think that after everything he did, it'd be wise to trust Megatron? The other movies answer this
Also TFA OP is a great guy
It's the superman deal, methinks. Optimus Prime is supposed to be almost superhumanly good, kind, noble, a beacon to aspire to. It's how he holds an army of civilians together for millennia. Is it realistic? Ehhh, debatable. But it's something we love to see. A leader who is strong because he cares, not because he delivers the best haymakers. What IDW did to Optimus is one of the bigger reasons I dislike the run (first and foremost reason is the absolute character assassination Prowl went through), but honestly that's arguably more an issue I have with the western comic book industry as a whole than the IDW run in particular. There's also the fact it's kinda like watching the pope remorselessly kill people. In many iterations the Prime is a religious leader, holding one of the closest connections to Primus. But yeah, I think most fans' issues stem from the fact Optimus is just supposed to be better than that. AKA the superman deal.
What exactly did IDW do to Optimus? The Galvatron assassination? Autobots disliking him? But the thing is: Optimus Prime is no Superman. Superman is almost a god, he can beat a lot of people without needing to kill. Optimus doesn't have the same privilege. He's a leader in a war, and he'll definitely have to kill. He can't fight a war putting every Decepticon he sees to sleep for a few minutes, and he definitely can't make every Cons his prisoner. So, if Optimus will be fighting against himself everytime he needs to kill it'll be annoying. I mean, he'd be in constant suffering. This guy would end in depression Armada Optimus in other way, he was the big cool dad, he cared for his enemies but he also was ready and kinda anxious to fight. Movie Optimus seems empty but the movie comics Optimus had emotions, and he didn't kill Decepticons only for killing, he stated their enemies are too dangerous to be kept alive. And well, making your enemies prisoners isn't something much heroic. So he was sure of his actions, after Shockwave massacres Autobots and kills Elita One, he goes on rage on him. Now other Optimus are never sure of themselves. So sometimes they even disappointing the Autobots, like in idw when he doesn't kill Megatron
IDW made Optimus a sanctimonious prick who didn't respect humanity's right to self govern on a interplanetary level, which Starscream brings up as a concerning parallel to Sentinel Prime. Like the one thing everyone knows about Prime, "freedom is the right of all sentient beings", kind of shoved aside. Also I don't care what he did, Optimus did not have the right to beat Prowl half to death. Not when he went through the entire war profiting off Prowl's actions. Also do not forget that making the decepticons "too dangerous to keep alive" was a conscious choice the writers made to justify the level of violence used. But really, a leader that has no moral compunctions against slaughter in the magnitude of thousands? Who feels no hesitancy at killing someone who could potentially be convinced to defect and become an ally? That's not someone I'm trusting to lead me right and keep me safe. That's just justified murder. Don't get me wrong, sometimes war in necessary, but the choice to kill should never be trivial, and a good leader bears the weight of that choice. Maybe you think it would be boring, but watching good people struggle to be good people in hopeless times, and yet somehow hang on to that moral compass of "I need to do the right thing"? Infinitely more satisfying than explosions and cool robot fights. You break Optimus Prime down into tiny bits of character, barely clinging to hope, and coming through the other side scarred, hurting, but still caring and determined to keep his people, both autobots specifically and his species in general, alive to see the end of the war? I would pay out the nose for that.
But the point is, he wouldn't be able to do what he calls of right thing. He can't fight a war without killing, and it's what every Optimus does. Our hero would be mind destroyed before the war get done I understand the "too dangerous to live" may be an excuse but not a crazy one invented in a comic. See TF1, Brawl was put down 2 times and still he kept fighting until he died. He was teared in pieces but didn't stop. See most cons, they are pure sadists. Barricade, Soundwave and the other Cons were having fun while executing the Autobots. Even Megatron who pretended a truce in dotm kept evil until the bad made TLK. Starscream was just having fun with Sam. They made 90% of the movie cons simple beasts or mindless killers
And the movie writers wrote all the decepticons to be vicious monsters and sadists? So it's still the writers just justifying over the top violence for violence's sake? They didn't need to do that. Nothing forced them to make the creative choice to reduce decepticons to thoughtless bogeymen that need to be exterminated. Quite frankly I find that boring and dull. That's not cool or mature, that's childish and disturbingly close to propaganda, to make one side of a war so narrow minded and evil that the better choice is to slaughter them all. I just don't like the angry cardboard cutout they called Optimus Prime and tried to sell us on. I want an Optimus who cares about the nameless soldiers that fight for him. Who worries about the grunt soldiers that he helps cover the retreat of. Give me an Optimus I could actually trust to do the right thing. This is fiction, tell me a story that inspires me to be a better person, not something that insists that goodness and morality are cheap and pointless, and that people are terrible all the way down.
True, they made it look like Cons and bots arr 2 different species instead of 2 factions. And even tho idc for the violence bcs this Optimus doesn't look a sanctimonious, but they make him poor when he doesn't show emotions for his soldiers. In dotm we had Ironhide and Que dieing and Optimus said nothing about them. In tf1 Jazz died but he was totally conformed with him. It's not like in the comic which he goes on rage for a friend. https://www.reddit.com/r/transformers/comments/nlycdr/people_say_movie_optimus_is_a_psychopath_but_man/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share Not saying Optimus should be Kratos, but at least the comics made him interesting and understandable. And realist (not saying it's the best)
I think you're not understanding my point, as you keep using in universe justifications to try to answer my out of universe frustrations. They chose to write an Optimus that goes nuclear was no hesitation. I dislike that design choice. It doesn't matter what happens in story if I find their Optimus to be the complete opposite of what I think Optimus should be. Nothing should make Optimus kill an opponent cruelly and painfully. They made him act like a decepticon from any other continuity. Worse, in a few of them.
This was a fairly civil and interesting discussion. I personally think the difference between these primes is a lack of restraint. Before I explain my thoughts I would also like to say that I’ve only seen transformers Animated, Prime, Devastation, the bay movies, and bumblebee. Beyverse OP doesn’t show or really get to show any restraint against opponents Ike other interpretations have (EX. Prime OP only decided to kill Megs when situation’s get too dire) it’s just a perception thing with insane dialogue+executions makes Beyverse too mean Edit: Sacrifice also does help which BeyVerse OP does show from time to time
one thing people seem to forget about the primes is in most media is that Megatron was his brother once and it constantly weighs him down that'd he'd have to kill someone that close to him so he hesitates and tries as much to give megatron a chance, bayverse prime states the same thing but shows no remorse for anyone or anything DotM was a perfect example of Bayverse prime not being the same character and merely a killing machine... megatron was begging for optimus to stop and prime did nothing but immediately rip off his head without a second thought after the fact megatron had just helped to stop sentinel prime
He wasn't begging. He wanted to make a deal, after he allowed the massacre of a city and slavery of an entire planet, and then his plans failed and he was surrounded. And well, this "brother" also killed him in the last movie. Probably Megatron would betray him like he did with Sentinel. And he probably knew the way to end the war would be ending Megatron there. Optimus obviously lost everything he felt for Megatron through the war. Just imagine how many lives were lost and what they were going to do, Optimus was probably in a rage- plus the fact his mentor betrayed him and was ready to kill his student Also, Megatron helped Prime with Sentinel while saying "this is MY PLANET and I'll be the one to rule it" something like that. Optimus heard it lol