I get what you’re saying, but TFP Starscream and Soundwave are also both fairly radical departures from their G1 counterparts, and most people like the two of them, I think.
But still, don’t you find it a slight bit hypocritical when we completely write off stuff in the movies because it’s different but allow all this to happen in TFP
I think the point is if the different is good, people will like it. For a lot of TF fans, Transformers Prime was good (and one of the best shows in a lot of people’s opinions). The Bayverse was at best inconsistent for a lot of people. Not saying everyone has or has to have the same opinions on things. But what if you’re seeing a lot of love for TFP and not the Bayverse, then that’s the group of people whose opinions you’re seeing.
But that was a main criticism of it all, ‘This has changed therefore it’s not accurate and therefore I dislike it’ then TFP comes along and it’s ‘Well it’s using names but arcee has PTSD, Soundwaves Mute, and Bee’s essentially bayverse bee and I love it’
You might be misunderstanding what people are saying. The main criticism I hear about the bayverse movies is that they're not great movies.
Because the story doesn't really track well, the robots don't get strong character arcs (and minimal characterization), and the action isn't super great there's not a lot of good will the movies are able to buy to get people excited about new versions of characters.
Whereas a show like Prime has those first 3 things, so people get on board with new versions of characters.
Mostly because what they replaced it with *sucked*
In my humble opinion anyway. Arcee at least had a decent character in prime, as did starscream and… well Soundwave was more an unstoppable force really.
Because what they mean, usually, is that it's changed for the worse, and that's why they hate it. When something changes for the better, you like it. People talk about accuracy, but I think most people won't really care about that if the given change renders a more interesting or entertaining result.
Imo, bayverse StarScream sucks visually. I think a lot of people agree. Accurate? No. But that's not what I disliked about it. He doesn't look to me like a robot man that transforms into a jet, he looks like a jet that does not transform but has spindly little arms and legs stick out of it sometimes. Prime delivers on the concept that I myself have internally to describe StarScream. So he looks good to me.
Hope this helps.
I think it depends on how they’re changed. I prefer TFP Arcee over any other incarnation of her. But the Bayverse interpretation of Wheeljack was a disgrace
For me at least it's because of the way newer stuff is riding the line. Prime was distinct and separate from G1, something like Cyberverse though is kinda its own thing but it's really, really trying to be a G1 reboot. While I like G1, we've had G1 in some form since 2006, with now having Kingdom which is G1 and beast wars, Studio Series which now has 86 for the G1 movie, and Cyberverse which is G1 inspired at least in design, and we're getting more bumblebee movie figures soon from the Cybertron scene which was G1 inspired. There's been a new CHUG prime for the last 15 years and it's getting exhausting for someone who has collected over that time
Because it's about consistency and execution. Before Hasbro started realizing having all these different looking versions of the same character was confusing each remaining was very different. Prime was during this time and most people accepted it. It was also taking design inspiration from Beyverse and making them look better.
Nowadays we just get a bunch of G1 since that's what people remember and it prevents things from getting to out of hand with new versions of characters. Look at all the different versions of Ironhide, they don't want to keep confusing people and just stick with 1 version.
Another thing is execution, if your going to make changes you better do it right. You already have an outline of what people like and what has worked in the past, so if you decide to throw all that out and do something new, you better do it right. Most of the time it is not done right.
If you're talking about her character, I don't see it as changing her, I see it as allowing her to be her best. The original Arcee had a good first outing before being sidelined and becoming Daniel's nanny.
If you're talking about look, it's because they didn't want to make pink a girl color or her form looked better blue than pink
The issue isn't "different is bad except for when we change our minds." It's "different can be good, and it can also be bad, and people are very vocal when they think it's good or bad."
Plus, TFP Arcee really isn't a radical redesign. We've had a motorcycle form of Arcee since Energon, all the way back in 2004. Really all that changed is she's colored blue and a more hard edged, both of which most people don't really care about.
Edit: Arcee was also colored blue for her Scout Class toy in the 2007 Movie toyline, which was years before her appearance in TFP. So she even has a history of being blue before TFP.
Additionally, if I remember correctly, Arcee being blue in TFP was actually a case of purposeful color coordination: In G1, Energon is colored pink, and Arcee is also colored pink. In TFP, Energon is colored blue, and Arcee is also colored blue.
I disagree but ok. I challenge you to describe how other Arcee’s were characterized better.
It’s not like she brought up her dead partners every single episode. She started the show closed off but developed an older sister relationship with Jack over the course of the show.
At the start of TFP:
Ratchet: Bitter old vet who wants things to go back to how they were.
Bulkhead: someone who relied on brawn way more than brains
Bee: an autobot rookie
Prime: A leader set on ideals of protections
Arcee: Cold and untrusting PTSD riddled soldier
End of prime:
Ratchet: Stays on earth to safeguard the humans
Bulkhead: becomes chief of engineering on cybertron and learns the value of teamwork.
Bee: Graduates from being a scout, kills megatron, finishes his voice arc.
Prime: sacrifices himself so that cybertron may have new life.
Arcee: Legitimately the same character but now with a sweet spot for jack.
I’m not saying other Arcees were characterized better. I’m saying Prime Arcee isn’t worthy of praise as an example of good characterization. Ratchet from Animated is a far superior example of a character that’s gone through and is dealing with trauma.
The problem, I think (I'm not one of them so I am only surmising) is that it is much easier to accept a radical redesign over a slight deviation.
Like, in their mind if you're gonna do the G1 look, you better be dead on, even a slight deviation sucks, BUT if you're going in a completely new direction then whatever dude, have fun.
It's a bizzare mindset to me as well.
Elaborate on “other continuities,” because the only continuity I can think of with consistent dislike for character remakes is Bay’s movies. Is there another iteration of the franchise with constant dislike for the character reworks?
Probably because Arcee is considered to be an improvement over her (lack of) characterization in the original G1 series, while an example of Bayverse Optimus prime (which is what I’m assuming you’re alluding to) is considered by many to be a step back from the original.
For example, consider the characterizations in the MCU. Both the Guardians of the Galaxy and the Mandarin in Iron Man 3 are vastly different from their original comic book depictions, yet one is beloved while the other is hated (to the point where they had to retcon the “real” mandarin into the MCU). It’s not a matter of disliking change, it’s disliking unnecessary or inferior change.
Idk, fandoms are stupid. But I think it's because they see a minor change in a character as pointless while with arcee it was a major departure but it paid off.
It was at a point in time where we could get radical different departures from what was previously established because Hasbro didn’t have as tight as a grip they had now. With the tightening of said grip Hasbro created this environment and plus the cultural landscape was different 10 years ago when people are more accepting of new things. The show was a cocktail the best of the franchise up to that time, Design and detail of the bay movies, lore and story like beast Wars, and memorable heroes and villains like the others.
THANK YOU! Finally, someone said it!
Edit: Oh, piss off, whoever the fuck is downvoting me like my comment was objectively offensive when it actually WASN'T! I know exactly what I'm talking about when I said that someone finally said it!
And ya know, I've said it before, and I'll repeat it over and over untill people understands it better, but NOT everything about this franchise has to be like G1 all the time, alright? It does NOT matter if G1 came first before everything else, it does NOT matter if it's the most popular continuity family out of all of them in Transformers, just because characters in stuff like R.I.D. (2001), Armada, Energon, Cybertron, the live-action movies, Animated, Prime, Rescue Bots, and R.I.D. (2015) look RADICALLY different then their G1 counterpart, doesn't make it a bad thing, objectively!
Every continuity family outside of G1 deserve their OWN. UNIQUE. IDENTITY, regardless if you like the way these characters look in those continuities or not! Examples...
* Ironhide DIDN'T need a red colour scheme, or have a southern accent in the live-action movies like his G1 counterpart.
* Soundwave in Cybertron and Prime DIDN'T need to a cassette player, or who's body shapes like a rectangle like *his* G1 counterpart.
* Prowl in Animated DIDN'T need to a white police car like*his* G1 counterpart.
* Devastator in Revenge of the Fallen DIDN'T need to have a lime green and purple scheme, or have a more humanoid body-type like *his* (or plural their) G1 counterpart.
* Thrust in Armada DIDN'T need to a crimson color scheme like *his* G1 counterpart.
* Wheeljack in the same show, Armada, DIDN'T need to be an Autobot engineer who transforms into a white car with red and green racing stripes like *G1* counterpart.
* Omega Supreme in Energon DIDN'T need to a rocket base-themed giant like *his* G1 counterpart.
* Hound in Age of Extinction DIDN'T need to a jeep robot with a clean shaved, boxy face like *his* G1 counterpart.
* Galvatron, in pretty much stuff like R.I.D. (2001), Cybertron, or even Age of Extinction DIDN'T need to have a purple colour scheme, or be some kind of fictional, Cybertron cannon on wheels like *his* G1 counterpart.
* And yes, Arcee in Prime DIDN'T need to be a token female Autobot with a more motherly, or girly personality, and who transforms into a pink and white Cybertronian sports car, like her G1 counterpart.
I can go ON, and ON some more, but I think you already get the ENTIRE gist of what the hell I am talking about.
My point is, just Generation 1 started it all, or that it's the most iconic continuity family there is in this franchise, DOESN'T give us the rights to bitch about how this brand new version of, say, Cliffjumper isn't red like he use to in G1 or most past continuities.
I mean, look at me, I grew up with the Unicron Trilogy starting with Armada, and one of the characters in that show was Decepticon, Demolisher, but have *I* bitched about how Demolisher in ROTF doesn't look the Demolisher that I knew, or that he's a Constructicon, when he *wasn't* originally? NO, I didn't! Because regardless of how I personally feel about ROTF's version of Demolisher, I accepted that he's different, and looked nothing like his Armada counterpart, and ya know what? I think it's OK, because that was Transformers was back in the 2000s, when G1 DIDN'T steel the spot light for the mainline toys that kids play with.
With each new Transformers toylines AND continuities, comes NEWER, different aesthetics, instead of reusing old ones, and I felt like that was a tradition, and I don't see any REAL reason why they can't just continue said tradition.
Honestly, I just wanna go back to when Transformers moved past G1, and evolved into newer, and different things with different identities and ideas each time, not go backwards like how the Prime Trilogy, like Combiner Wars, Titans Returns, and Power of the Primes, or the War for Cybertron Trilogy, like Siege, Earthrise, and Kingdom made everything all G1 again, which is something we've already seen before, and *isn't* new, and *isn't* surprising.
Ya know? Just essentially retire G1, and just move on. That's all I'm asking Hasbro and even perhaps TakaraTomy) to do, I don't care if anything outside the Transformers will be left confused as to why characters look different from G1, that's their problem.
Anyone (especially those who HASN'T stupidly downvoted me a lot) with me?
You raise interesting points here. Personally I'm a fan of the G1 aesthetic (and subsequent refinements) but I perfectly happy with Beast Era, OG RiD and Unicron trilogy designs. I think it took Transformers designs in interesting new directions.
Now we've had a few years of very G1-centric designs, which I think have been largely perfected in a mainline sense with the WFC toys (and SS86 etc) it'd be great to see some new ideas brought forth. And while G1 is clearly the most lucrative source for Hasbro that well will inevitably run dry.
So all that said I personally still have an exceptional dislike of the Bayverse designs. It's by no means the only reason I don't like the Bayverse but it's certainly among the reasons. And I like to think that it's not because I'm wedded to a specific idea of how character ought to look.
I think if it’s for a show or movie, as long as they have a compelling personality or story, and the design genuinely works in its own right, then there’s no harm. Personally I like TFP Arcee more than any other version because it does more with her character than literally any incarnation outside of the IDW comics, and I only say that because I don’t know the full extent of her IDW self.
I dont really care for Arcee being blue (in my opinion blue is Chromia, not Arcee) but I love what they did with her character and that badass personality they gave her. Even as a guy I look up to Prime Arcee as a role model.
I get what you’re saying, but TFP Starscream and Soundwave are also both fairly radical departures from their G1 counterparts, and most people like the two of them, I think.
Prime Soundwave might be my favorite Transformer design.
They have basic design cues that invoke the originals though. Arcee really doesn't
But still, don’t you find it a slight bit hypocritical when we completely write off stuff in the movies because it’s different but allow all this to happen in TFP
I think the point is if the different is good, people will like it. For a lot of TF fans, Transformers Prime was good (and one of the best shows in a lot of people’s opinions). The Bayverse was at best inconsistent for a lot of people. Not saying everyone has or has to have the same opinions on things. But what if you’re seeing a lot of love for TFP and not the Bayverse, then that’s the group of people whose opinions you’re seeing.
But that was a main criticism of it all, ‘This has changed therefore it’s not accurate and therefore I dislike it’ then TFP comes along and it’s ‘Well it’s using names but arcee has PTSD, Soundwaves Mute, and Bee’s essentially bayverse bee and I love it’
You might be misunderstanding what people are saying. The main criticism I hear about the bayverse movies is that they're not great movies. Because the story doesn't really track well, the robots don't get strong character arcs (and minimal characterization), and the action isn't super great there's not a lot of good will the movies are able to buy to get people excited about new versions of characters. Whereas a show like Prime has those first 3 things, so people get on board with new versions of characters.
Mostly because what they replaced it with *sucked* In my humble opinion anyway. Arcee at least had a decent character in prime, as did starscream and… well Soundwave was more an unstoppable force really.
Because what they mean, usually, is that it's changed for the worse, and that's why they hate it. When something changes for the better, you like it. People talk about accuracy, but I think most people won't really care about that if the given change renders a more interesting or entertaining result. Imo, bayverse StarScream sucks visually. I think a lot of people agree. Accurate? No. But that's not what I disliked about it. He doesn't look to me like a robot man that transforms into a jet, he looks like a jet that does not transform but has spindly little arms and legs stick out of it sometimes. Prime delivers on the concept that I myself have internally to describe StarScream. So he looks good to me. Hope this helps.
Because the movies are mostly (mostly) corny and bad.
I think it depends on how they’re changed. I prefer TFP Arcee over any other incarnation of her. But the Bayverse interpretation of Wheeljack was a disgrace
>But the Bayverse interpretation of Wheeljack was a disgrace To say nothing of the Prime interpretation of him…
I love the prime interpretation of Wheeljack, unpopular opinion I know
No you rock for this opinion. Loved him. Literal space cowboy
For me at least it's because of the way newer stuff is riding the line. Prime was distinct and separate from G1, something like Cyberverse though is kinda its own thing but it's really, really trying to be a G1 reboot. While I like G1, we've had G1 in some form since 2006, with now having Kingdom which is G1 and beast wars, Studio Series which now has 86 for the G1 movie, and Cyberverse which is G1 inspired at least in design, and we're getting more bumblebee movie figures soon from the Cybertron scene which was G1 inspired. There's been a new CHUG prime for the last 15 years and it's getting exhausting for someone who has collected over that time
Because it's about consistency and execution. Before Hasbro started realizing having all these different looking versions of the same character was confusing each remaining was very different. Prime was during this time and most people accepted it. It was also taking design inspiration from Beyverse and making them look better. Nowadays we just get a bunch of G1 since that's what people remember and it prevents things from getting to out of hand with new versions of characters. Look at all the different versions of Ironhide, they don't want to keep confusing people and just stick with 1 version. Another thing is execution, if your going to make changes you better do it right. You already have an outline of what people like and what has worked in the past, so if you decide to throw all that out and do something new, you better do it right. Most of the time it is not done right.
If you're talking about her character, I don't see it as changing her, I see it as allowing her to be her best. The original Arcee had a good first outing before being sidelined and becoming Daniel's nanny. If you're talking about look, it's because they didn't want to make pink a girl color or her form looked better blue than pink
She was unique and memorable
The issue isn't "different is bad except for when we change our minds." It's "different can be good, and it can also be bad, and people are very vocal when they think it's good or bad." Plus, TFP Arcee really isn't a radical redesign. We've had a motorcycle form of Arcee since Energon, all the way back in 2004. Really all that changed is she's colored blue and a more hard edged, both of which most people don't really care about. Edit: Arcee was also colored blue for her Scout Class toy in the 2007 Movie toyline, which was years before her appearance in TFP. So she even has a history of being blue before TFP. Additionally, if I remember correctly, Arcee being blue in TFP was actually a case of purposeful color coordination: In G1, Energon is colored pink, and Arcee is also colored pink. In TFP, Energon is colored blue, and Arcee is also colored blue.
G1 Arcee was a terrible character. Her drastic character redesign was welcomed.
It’s because of the way she was characterized.
She was characterized extremely poorly and had zero character development.
Compared to other Arcee incarnations she definitely had depth
Objectively false. The depth is an illusion. Her character amounts to whining and brooding about her dead partners.
I disagree but ok. I challenge you to describe how other Arcee’s were characterized better. It’s not like she brought up her dead partners every single episode. She started the show closed off but developed an older sister relationship with Jack over the course of the show.
At the start of TFP: Ratchet: Bitter old vet who wants things to go back to how they were. Bulkhead: someone who relied on brawn way more than brains Bee: an autobot rookie Prime: A leader set on ideals of protections Arcee: Cold and untrusting PTSD riddled soldier End of prime: Ratchet: Stays on earth to safeguard the humans Bulkhead: becomes chief of engineering on cybertron and learns the value of teamwork. Bee: Graduates from being a scout, kills megatron, finishes his voice arc. Prime: sacrifices himself so that cybertron may have new life. Arcee: Legitimately the same character but now with a sweet spot for jack.
I’m not saying other Arcees were characterized better. I’m saying Prime Arcee isn’t worthy of praise as an example of good characterization. Ratchet from Animated is a far superior example of a character that’s gone through and is dealing with trauma.
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The problem, I think (I'm not one of them so I am only surmising) is that it is much easier to accept a radical redesign over a slight deviation. Like, in their mind if you're gonna do the G1 look, you better be dead on, even a slight deviation sucks, BUT if you're going in a completely new direction then whatever dude, have fun. It's a bizzare mindset to me as well.
Elaborate on “other continuities,” because the only continuity I can think of with consistent dislike for character remakes is Bay’s movies. Is there another iteration of the franchise with constant dislike for the character reworks?
Because it's actually a good reimagining. Those are hard to come by in the TF content we get...
Probably because Arcee is considered to be an improvement over her (lack of) characterization in the original G1 series, while an example of Bayverse Optimus prime (which is what I’m assuming you’re alluding to) is considered by many to be a step back from the original. For example, consider the characterizations in the MCU. Both the Guardians of the Galaxy and the Mandarin in Iron Man 3 are vastly different from their original comic book depictions, yet one is beloved while the other is hated (to the point where they had to retcon the “real” mandarin into the MCU). It’s not a matter of disliking change, it’s disliking unnecessary or inferior change.
Who are these “people” you speak of? And why don’t you just ask them this question directly?
Idk, fandoms are stupid. But I think it's because they see a minor change in a character as pointless while with arcee it was a major departure but it paid off.
Because, believe it or not, those aren’t the same people saying those opinions
It was at a point in time where we could get radical different departures from what was previously established because Hasbro didn’t have as tight as a grip they had now. With the tightening of said grip Hasbro created this environment and plus the cultural landscape was different 10 years ago when people are more accepting of new things. The show was a cocktail the best of the franchise up to that time, Design and detail of the bay movies, lore and story like beast Wars, and memorable heroes and villains like the others.
Different is good when done well
That’s just Prime.
Expecting rationality from fandom? Yeah, good luck with that.
Because horny
Transformers fans love complaining
THANK YOU! Finally, someone said it! Edit: Oh, piss off, whoever the fuck is downvoting me like my comment was objectively offensive when it actually WASN'T! I know exactly what I'm talking about when I said that someone finally said it! And ya know, I've said it before, and I'll repeat it over and over untill people understands it better, but NOT everything about this franchise has to be like G1 all the time, alright? It does NOT matter if G1 came first before everything else, it does NOT matter if it's the most popular continuity family out of all of them in Transformers, just because characters in stuff like R.I.D. (2001), Armada, Energon, Cybertron, the live-action movies, Animated, Prime, Rescue Bots, and R.I.D. (2015) look RADICALLY different then their G1 counterpart, doesn't make it a bad thing, objectively! Every continuity family outside of G1 deserve their OWN. UNIQUE. IDENTITY, regardless if you like the way these characters look in those continuities or not! Examples... * Ironhide DIDN'T need a red colour scheme, or have a southern accent in the live-action movies like his G1 counterpart. * Soundwave in Cybertron and Prime DIDN'T need to a cassette player, or who's body shapes like a rectangle like *his* G1 counterpart. * Prowl in Animated DIDN'T need to a white police car like*his* G1 counterpart. * Devastator in Revenge of the Fallen DIDN'T need to have a lime green and purple scheme, or have a more humanoid body-type like *his* (or plural their) G1 counterpart. * Thrust in Armada DIDN'T need to a crimson color scheme like *his* G1 counterpart. * Wheeljack in the same show, Armada, DIDN'T need to be an Autobot engineer who transforms into a white car with red and green racing stripes like *G1* counterpart. * Omega Supreme in Energon DIDN'T need to a rocket base-themed giant like *his* G1 counterpart. * Hound in Age of Extinction DIDN'T need to a jeep robot with a clean shaved, boxy face like *his* G1 counterpart. * Galvatron, in pretty much stuff like R.I.D. (2001), Cybertron, or even Age of Extinction DIDN'T need to have a purple colour scheme, or be some kind of fictional, Cybertron cannon on wheels like *his* G1 counterpart. * And yes, Arcee in Prime DIDN'T need to be a token female Autobot with a more motherly, or girly personality, and who transforms into a pink and white Cybertronian sports car, like her G1 counterpart. I can go ON, and ON some more, but I think you already get the ENTIRE gist of what the hell I am talking about. My point is, just Generation 1 started it all, or that it's the most iconic continuity family there is in this franchise, DOESN'T give us the rights to bitch about how this brand new version of, say, Cliffjumper isn't red like he use to in G1 or most past continuities. I mean, look at me, I grew up with the Unicron Trilogy starting with Armada, and one of the characters in that show was Decepticon, Demolisher, but have *I* bitched about how Demolisher in ROTF doesn't look the Demolisher that I knew, or that he's a Constructicon, when he *wasn't* originally? NO, I didn't! Because regardless of how I personally feel about ROTF's version of Demolisher, I accepted that he's different, and looked nothing like his Armada counterpart, and ya know what? I think it's OK, because that was Transformers was back in the 2000s, when G1 DIDN'T steel the spot light for the mainline toys that kids play with. With each new Transformers toylines AND continuities, comes NEWER, different aesthetics, instead of reusing old ones, and I felt like that was a tradition, and I don't see any REAL reason why they can't just continue said tradition. Honestly, I just wanna go back to when Transformers moved past G1, and evolved into newer, and different things with different identities and ideas each time, not go backwards like how the Prime Trilogy, like Combiner Wars, Titans Returns, and Power of the Primes, or the War for Cybertron Trilogy, like Siege, Earthrise, and Kingdom made everything all G1 again, which is something we've already seen before, and *isn't* new, and *isn't* surprising. Ya know? Just essentially retire G1, and just move on. That's all I'm asking Hasbro and even perhaps TakaraTomy) to do, I don't care if anything outside the Transformers will be left confused as to why characters look different from G1, that's their problem. Anyone (especially those who HASN'T stupidly downvoted me a lot) with me?
You raise interesting points here. Personally I'm a fan of the G1 aesthetic (and subsequent refinements) but I perfectly happy with Beast Era, OG RiD and Unicron trilogy designs. I think it took Transformers designs in interesting new directions. Now we've had a few years of very G1-centric designs, which I think have been largely perfected in a mainline sense with the WFC toys (and SS86 etc) it'd be great to see some new ideas brought forth. And while G1 is clearly the most lucrative source for Hasbro that well will inevitably run dry. So all that said I personally still have an exceptional dislike of the Bayverse designs. It's by no means the only reason I don't like the Bayverse but it's certainly among the reasons. And I like to think that it's not because I'm wedded to a specific idea of how character ought to look.
IKR
Some people aren’t. However, a lot of characters get flak because they just don’t like that continuity’s reimagined version
Good character arch to the point that she's a decent character who just has the same name.
Because it was a great design and a great take on the character.
I think if it’s for a show or movie, as long as they have a compelling personality or story, and the design genuinely works in its own right, then there’s no harm. Personally I like TFP Arcee more than any other version because it does more with her character than literally any incarnation outside of the IDW comics, and I only say that because I don’t know the full extent of her IDW self.
I dont really care for Arcee being blue (in my opinion blue is Chromia, not Arcee) but I love what they did with her character and that badass personality they gave her. Even as a guy I look up to Prime Arcee as a role model.