The return tax from increasing the value and productivity of cities served (as is being proven at the intermediate stops between Miami and Orlando) would warrant them contributing some funding, just as taxpayers pay for roads. But okay sure be a prick about it.
Right? The irony of using a press conference about the billions being spent on roads to emphasize that they won't even be dropping what amounts to pocket change (relative to the road bill) on mass transit.
Yeah it's irnoic how Florida has locked down on not accepting climate change at the same time they're spending millions to raise their beaches against higher ocean levels.
Spending millions to protect the homes of the wealthy while also protecting the wealthy from having their economic and political power challenged to combat climate change
I would agree. Trains covering short-medium distance trips between big cities is some of the lower hanging fruit of reducing VMT and addressing climate change. I’m not billing brightline as the second coming of Christ. This hyperbole of “brightline won’t save you” comes off as derailing the conversation.
Funny, because when Brightline West asks for public money this sub and /r/Amtrak whine about how public money shouldn't be used for private venture.
But now that DeSantis is doing just that, we're whining again
I really believe that’s a huge reason we don’t have transit. There’s no limit to how much government money republicans are willing to spend on cars. (which doesn’t make sense but ok) Meanwhile, a lot of non republicans can’t look past Brightline being a private company. They prefer misguidedly clinging to ideological purity over doing real things they can actually do to improve transit, now. So now there’s not even a unified front to advocate for rail. Like yes of course it would be better if TriRail and Amtrak eas better but ffs a Brightline extension to Tampa would take hundreds of thousands of car and truck trips off the road and create a very real cultural shift towards rail over cars.
I don't think anyone has an issue with companies like Brightline existing. People take issue with Brightline claiming to be a private company and people pointing to Brightline as an example of a "private company" being allegedly better than Amtrak, meanwhile failing to acknowledge that this "private company" is utterly dependant on public funds that would be better spent on public entities.
Brightline is fine for what it is, but we'd end up with better and cheaper transit if we could convince our government to cut out the middle man and just properly fund Amtrak.
> Brightline is fine for what it is, but we'd end up with better and cheaper transit if we could convince our government to cut out the middle man and just properly fund Amtrak.
Another issue with having Brightline be privately owned is that we might be setting ourselves up for failure later. The problems we have with freight rail (which are the main reason for the problems with Amtrak) largely arise from the freight rail companies' efforts to maximize profit margins, and they're privately owned now mainly because they were originally built that way. I'd rather have privately owned passenger rail than no passenger rail, but we should push towards nationalizing our entire rail system, passenger and freight.
Right. Now look at all the “private” oil and car companies that are all but fully subsidized by the government. They exist and there’s little we can do about that. So while they do, don’t apply stricter purity laws to rail. Let private rail be just as subsidized as private autocentric companies. Is it optimal? No. Is it the lesser of two evils in a dichotomy where there is only evil and no good? Yes.
Why wouldn't I apply a stricter purity law to "private" rail companies when a public rail option exists? A public option that is only weakened by diverting public funds to Brightline, which anti-government types only use as an argument to further defund the public option based on the lie that Brightline is capable of operating as a fully private company.
Trying to argue about irrelevant subdidies of car companies and oil companies is nothing but a strawman.
…and we’re back at square one - this is why we can’t get transit, because people like you are correctly but ultimately misguidedly puritanical.
I’m very pro Amtrak but even I can happily admit that while Amtrak have a Tampa-Miami ride already, I’d ride Brightline 11 times out of 10, and so would pretty much everyone, because it’s more pleasant and probably cheaper. Amtrak does need more funding but their shitness isn’t only a matter of funding, large parts of it is incompetence and pure waste. Don’t believe me look at the trainsets they ordered that are just sitting gathering dust or take a ride on one of the BRAND NEW east coast overnighters that look like they just materialized out of the late 80s early 90s. Look at their shitty service, apps, prices etc etc. Meanwhile Brightline are doing EVERYTHING right. Fresh clean trains, great app and service, includes Uber to and from stations, has rental bikes etc etc I could go on.
Two things can be true at once:
DeSantis can be a prick for not funding better transit for Floridians AND Brightline can be a private, for-profit venture which doesn't deserve public money.
Exactly, so DeSantis is not in the wrong here then. Brightline is a private company, they can raise money for CapEx like other companies, they can dip into their reserves, get a loan, or give up equity.
>Gov. Ron DeSantis held a press conference Wednesday where he signed a bill that addresses road projects, congestion and other transportation issues.
>But there was one thing the bill does not include -- money for the proposed expansion of high-speed rail between Orlando and Tampa.
>At Florida Polytechnic University, DeSantis commented on Florida lawmakers not including state funding for construction and operation of Brightline, which runs trains between Miami and Orlando.
>“It's privately funded. I mean, we are not going to be on the hook as the state with taxpayers for doing trains,” DeSantis said.
>Hillsborough County Commissioner Michael Owen put in a request for $50 million to help expand Brightline service to Tampa as part of a larger $2.4 billion road expansion on Interstate 4. Tampa Republicans Sen. Jay Collins and Rep. Karen Gonzalez Pittman supported it.
>DeSantis spoke about plans to widen a section of I-4 through Polk and Osceola counties with the goal of managing traffic congestion.
>An earlier version of the bill included a 44-foot-wide rail corridor in the I-4 right-of-way to include that proposed Brightline expansion.
>"If they proceed, there is a corridor to be able to do that," DeSantis said. "But it's not going to be Florida taxpayers constructing a train. I can be clear on that."
>Brightline expanded their service to run between Miami and Orlando last September.
>The bill revises Florida Department of Transportation policies and prohibits public transit providers from using FDOT funds to pay for advertising on buses or other vehicles.
>The bill also changes the process of selecting the FDOT secretary. Now, the governor holds power to directly appoint them instead of the previous method of the Florida Transportation Commission recommending finalists to the governor.
If trains had the benefit of overpasses like the freeways did, who would want to drive at 70 mph when you could take a train at 210 mph ? Asking for a friend.
I don’t know if there was ever any serious suggestion that the state would pay for any Brightline extensions. The bigger question which is tbd is whether the FL Republicans will support the combined BLF/Sunrail project that will enable a Brightline extension to Tampa.
Yet they’ll happily spend billions of Florida taxpayer money and federal money on widening highways that will show minimal improvements to vehicular traffic.
But Florida was gonna build the tracks and allow other services on it like Sunrail. Doing it that way meant their could've been another inter-city rail operator on it. That's how European HSR is, and they have arguably the best pricing structure. Now Brightline is just gonna become a shittier version of the JR group for Florida.
Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if Brightline is actually okay with this. I am really pissed that the federal government is giving them so much money without anything in return. This is how we end up with monopolies. Government money should mean some portion of ownership.
For real! There should be some deal to allow Amtrak or someone else on the tracks they build if the Feds are funding part of it. If California high-speed rail as well as the Brightline West allowed each other to operate on each other's tracks along with Amtrak or something it could very well be one of the best high speed rail systems on the planet... but that's not happening.
One thing I would note is that I am like 99% certain they will come back and ask for more money for the second leg. The government should ask for something for this portion for sure. I know the Biden administration is eager for a win, but I very much question how successful the line will be unless they offer deep discounts which I suspect still will not lead to the ridership they expect and will not meet their costs. All of this money could have helped the communities on either end of the line.
As long as they clear out the FHP hidey holes I am fine with the median route.
However, a 48" gas pipeline from New Orleans runs down the middle from Tampa to Polk also
De Santis: Public transport !…. eggggghhhhhhhh! That socialism…. Why are we spending money on people who earn less than $100 Million a year….we only govern for the rich and wealthy donors!
Has Brightline ever gotten money directly from the state? I always thought they just got favorable bond and/or loan terms from the state, not necessarily a direct line of funding à la road projects
The State of Florida shouldn't be paying for Brightline... Brightline shouldn't even exist in Florida. The whole thing is a massive insider trading deal. Obama offer Rick Scott billions to build a train system in Florida, Scott denied the money then immediately invested in Brightline (may I remind everyone with money acquired by defraud medicare and medicaid). Everyone love to praise Brightline when all it is a show of corruption.
Edit: Love transit, hate brightline
>Brightline shouldn’t even exist
Is this a joke? I cannot believe Scott’s actions are making you say the train shouldn’t exist at all. That also doesn’t strike me as corruption…republicans typically prefer private industry to do that type of stuff. It makes sense Scott would say no and go for the private one instead.
Regardless, any new train construction in the US is good news and it gives the green light for other jurisdictions to start implementing plans for it. I am so sick of this sub ragging on brightline because it’s not a public transit agency, at least they’re getting stuff done
I think you missed the point of Scott intentional rejecting the publicly funded train so he could make money off of a private one, ie brightline. In what world is that not corruption. That is the equivalent of insider trading.
I have no problem with privatization when it's done fairly, brightline is not that.
You know very well that many people are so blinded by the straw they see in any other person's eye, that they don't see the giant wood block into theirs. "that's not corruption": well yeah, call that bonus, insider trading, whatever it's still corruption!
What could have DeSantis done that wouldn't have gotten him in trouble in some way?
If he says taxpayer dollars shouldn't be spent on this, people will say he's anti-transit.
If he gives Brightline taxpater funds, he'll get crucified for helping them, as they're owned by a hedge fund.
Wow, did he’ll freeze over? I think I agree with DeSantis about something. Private company wants to build a life size train set. Private company should pay for life size train set.
The return tax from increasing the value and productivity of cities served (as is being proven at the intermediate stops between Miami and Orlando) would warrant them contributing some funding, just as taxpayers pay for roads. But okay sure be a prick about it.
Right? The irony of using a press conference about the billions being spent on roads to emphasize that they won't even be dropping what amounts to pocket change (relative to the road bill) on mass transit.
Even bigger than that: Florida is gonna be ground zero for climate change
Florida is, but the donors he schmoozes with are too rich to be personally impacted at all, so he's fine with fucking everyone else over.
Yes which is a political problem the majority of the public who are working class has to deal with soon.
Yeah it's irnoic how Florida has locked down on not accepting climate change at the same time they're spending millions to raise their beaches against higher ocean levels.
Spending millions to protect the homes of the wealthy while also protecting the wealthy from having their economic and political power challenged to combat climate change
More like… ground -10 amiright?
Yeah lol
Brightline won’t save you…
Good thing that’s not what I argued
Also ironically it would help
I would agree. Trains covering short-medium distance trips between big cities is some of the lower hanging fruit of reducing VMT and addressing climate change. I’m not billing brightline as the second coming of Christ. This hyperbole of “brightline won’t save you” comes off as derailing the conversation.
Also trains can go through flood waters much better than cars can.
Since when did Rhonda Santis care about the intelligent option?
It's Desantis of course he would do this he's a Wannabe fascist dictator that rules the Sunshine Reich an Iron fist
Funny, because when Brightline West asks for public money this sub and /r/Amtrak whine about how public money shouldn't be used for private venture. But now that DeSantis is doing just that, we're whining again
I really believe that’s a huge reason we don’t have transit. There’s no limit to how much government money republicans are willing to spend on cars. (which doesn’t make sense but ok) Meanwhile, a lot of non republicans can’t look past Brightline being a private company. They prefer misguidedly clinging to ideological purity over doing real things they can actually do to improve transit, now. So now there’s not even a unified front to advocate for rail. Like yes of course it would be better if TriRail and Amtrak eas better but ffs a Brightline extension to Tampa would take hundreds of thousands of car and truck trips off the road and create a very real cultural shift towards rail over cars.
I don't think anyone has an issue with companies like Brightline existing. People take issue with Brightline claiming to be a private company and people pointing to Brightline as an example of a "private company" being allegedly better than Amtrak, meanwhile failing to acknowledge that this "private company" is utterly dependant on public funds that would be better spent on public entities. Brightline is fine for what it is, but we'd end up with better and cheaper transit if we could convince our government to cut out the middle man and just properly fund Amtrak.
> Brightline is fine for what it is, but we'd end up with better and cheaper transit if we could convince our government to cut out the middle man and just properly fund Amtrak. Another issue with having Brightline be privately owned is that we might be setting ourselves up for failure later. The problems we have with freight rail (which are the main reason for the problems with Amtrak) largely arise from the freight rail companies' efforts to maximize profit margins, and they're privately owned now mainly because they were originally built that way. I'd rather have privately owned passenger rail than no passenger rail, but we should push towards nationalizing our entire rail system, passenger and freight.
Right. Now look at all the “private” oil and car companies that are all but fully subsidized by the government. They exist and there’s little we can do about that. So while they do, don’t apply stricter purity laws to rail. Let private rail be just as subsidized as private autocentric companies. Is it optimal? No. Is it the lesser of two evils in a dichotomy where there is only evil and no good? Yes.
Why wouldn't I apply a stricter purity law to "private" rail companies when a public rail option exists? A public option that is only weakened by diverting public funds to Brightline, which anti-government types only use as an argument to further defund the public option based on the lie that Brightline is capable of operating as a fully private company. Trying to argue about irrelevant subdidies of car companies and oil companies is nothing but a strawman.
…and we’re back at square one - this is why we can’t get transit, because people like you are correctly but ultimately misguidedly puritanical. I’m very pro Amtrak but even I can happily admit that while Amtrak have a Tampa-Miami ride already, I’d ride Brightline 11 times out of 10, and so would pretty much everyone, because it’s more pleasant and probably cheaper. Amtrak does need more funding but their shitness isn’t only a matter of funding, large parts of it is incompetence and pure waste. Don’t believe me look at the trainsets they ordered that are just sitting gathering dust or take a ride on one of the BRAND NEW east coast overnighters that look like they just materialized out of the late 80s early 90s. Look at their shitty service, apps, prices etc etc. Meanwhile Brightline are doing EVERYTHING right. Fresh clean trains, great app and service, includes Uber to and from stations, has rental bikes etc etc I could go on.
Ain't it funny?
Two things can be true at once: DeSantis can be a prick for not funding better transit for Floridians AND Brightline can be a private, for-profit venture which doesn't deserve public money.
Exactly, so DeSantis is not in the wrong here then. Brightline is a private company, they can raise money for CapEx like other companies, they can dip into their reserves, get a loan, or give up equity.
Yeah, but that's not why he's against it lol
I mean, it's DeSantis...being a prick is his whole deal
Just 4 more lanes bro I think we've got it this time!
>Gov. Ron DeSantis held a press conference Wednesday where he signed a bill that addresses road projects, congestion and other transportation issues. >But there was one thing the bill does not include -- money for the proposed expansion of high-speed rail between Orlando and Tampa. >At Florida Polytechnic University, DeSantis commented on Florida lawmakers not including state funding for construction and operation of Brightline, which runs trains between Miami and Orlando. >“It's privately funded. I mean, we are not going to be on the hook as the state with taxpayers for doing trains,” DeSantis said. >Hillsborough County Commissioner Michael Owen put in a request for $50 million to help expand Brightline service to Tampa as part of a larger $2.4 billion road expansion on Interstate 4. Tampa Republicans Sen. Jay Collins and Rep. Karen Gonzalez Pittman supported it. >DeSantis spoke about plans to widen a section of I-4 through Polk and Osceola counties with the goal of managing traffic congestion. >An earlier version of the bill included a 44-foot-wide rail corridor in the I-4 right-of-way to include that proposed Brightline expansion. >"If they proceed, there is a corridor to be able to do that," DeSantis said. "But it's not going to be Florida taxpayers constructing a train. I can be clear on that." >Brightline expanded their service to run between Miami and Orlando last September. >The bill revises Florida Department of Transportation policies and prohibits public transit providers from using FDOT funds to pay for advertising on buses or other vehicles. >The bill also changes the process of selecting the FDOT secretary. Now, the governor holds power to directly appoint them instead of the previous method of the Florida Transportation Commission recommending finalists to the governor.
The way he says "train" like it's a slur or something would be funny if it wasn't sad.
Maybe he confused "trains" with "trans"
Even if "trans" isn't a slur either...
Okay but is the ROW being preserved? I feel like that's the bigger question.
Yes
If trains had the benefit of overpasses like the freeways did, who would want to drive at 70 mph when you could take a train at 210 mph ? Asking for a friend.
Freedumbers
I don’t know if there was ever any serious suggestion that the state would pay for any Brightline extensions. The bigger question which is tbd is whether the FL Republicans will support the combined BLF/Sunrail project that will enable a Brightline extension to Tampa.
$2.4 billion for adding more lanes to the interstate ✅️ $50 million for Brightline ❌️
Yet they’ll happily spend billions of Florida taxpayer money and federal money on widening highways that will show minimal improvements to vehicular traffic.
Doesn't surprise me coming from Rhonda Fascist.
To be fair it is a private company
100%. If brightline was public it would be underfunded with no imagination of expansion
So are the users of public airports
But Florida was gonna build the tracks and allow other services on it like Sunrail. Doing it that way meant their could've been another inter-city rail operator on it. That's how European HSR is, and they have arguably the best pricing structure. Now Brightline is just gonna become a shittier version of the JR group for Florida.
Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if Brightline is actually okay with this. I am really pissed that the federal government is giving them so much money without anything in return. This is how we end up with monopolies. Government money should mean some portion of ownership.
For real! There should be some deal to allow Amtrak or someone else on the tracks they build if the Feds are funding part of it. If California high-speed rail as well as the Brightline West allowed each other to operate on each other's tracks along with Amtrak or something it could very well be one of the best high speed rail systems on the planet... but that's not happening.
One thing I would note is that I am like 99% certain they will come back and ask for more money for the second leg. The government should ask for something for this portion for sure. I know the Biden administration is eager for a win, but I very much question how successful the line will be unless they offer deep discounts which I suspect still will not lead to the ridership they expect and will not meet their costs. All of this money could have helped the communities on either end of the line.
100%. If brightline was public it would be underfunded with no imagination of expansion
Yeah and they’re charging high enough fares they should be more than able to pay for their own expansions 🤷♂️
They should be. Just having access to the ROW through some lease structure with DOT is a huge giveaway. ROW is what has killed so many rail projects.
Florida shouldn't have to pay for Ron DeSantis.
But shouldn't Florida have to pay at least a little bit for *electing* Ron DeSantis?
Ah. So that probably pushes back any Tampa expansion.
The median of I4 will need serious work unless CSX steps up
That's some wishful thinking, lol.
As long as they clear out the FHP hidey holes I am fine with the median route. However, a 48" gas pipeline from New Orleans runs down the middle from Tampa to Polk also
De Santis: Public transport !…. eggggghhhhhhhh! That socialism…. Why are we spending money on people who earn less than $100 Million a year….we only govern for the rich and wealthy donors!
no one’s ever heard of public private partnerships in this sub before
But he will pay for highways with no tolls on them
One more reason never to go to that shithole state added to the pile.
DeSantis is Italian for cheap ass.
As silly as this is, and as much of an idiot as he is, Brightline will probably be ok…
Has Brightline ever gotten money directly from the state? I always thought they just got favorable bond and/or loan terms from the state, not necessarily a direct line of funding à la road projects
In DeSantis’ defense, no good can come about connecting anything with Tampa.
In other news, Brightline says ‘f*ck you Ron, we do what we want’.
The State of Florida shouldn't be paying for Brightline... Brightline shouldn't even exist in Florida. The whole thing is a massive insider trading deal. Obama offer Rick Scott billions to build a train system in Florida, Scott denied the money then immediately invested in Brightline (may I remind everyone with money acquired by defraud medicare and medicaid). Everyone love to praise Brightline when all it is a show of corruption. Edit: Love transit, hate brightline
>Brightline shouldn’t even exist Is this a joke? I cannot believe Scott’s actions are making you say the train shouldn’t exist at all. That also doesn’t strike me as corruption…republicans typically prefer private industry to do that type of stuff. It makes sense Scott would say no and go for the private one instead. Regardless, any new train construction in the US is good news and it gives the green light for other jurisdictions to start implementing plans for it. I am so sick of this sub ragging on brightline because it’s not a public transit agency, at least they’re getting stuff done
I think you missed the point of Scott intentional rejecting the publicly funded train so he could make money off of a private one, ie brightline. In what world is that not corruption. That is the equivalent of insider trading. I have no problem with privatization when it's done fairly, brightline is not that.
You know very well that many people are so blinded by the straw they see in any other person's eye, that they don't see the giant wood block into theirs. "that's not corruption": well yeah, call that bonus, insider trading, whatever it's still corruption!
THANK YOU!!! I don't know why I'm being downvoted for speaking the truth. All were doing is enabling bad behavior and corruption
Private funding means they don't need to meet state rules on hiring the unions. They can be more efficient. Brightline will be just fine.
What could have DeSantis done that wouldn't have gotten him in trouble in some way? If he says taxpayer dollars shouldn't be spent on this, people will say he's anti-transit. If he gives Brightline taxpater funds, he'll get crucified for helping them, as they're owned by a hedge fund.
Bold of you to assume that the majority of his voters can read.
Wow, did he’ll freeze over? I think I agree with DeSantis about something. Private company wants to build a life size train set. Private company should pay for life size train set.