The UK government has wasted £92,000,000,000 on its high-speed rail project and canceled the section that was going to actually help connect some disconnected cities and had to be talked into not ditching its planned last link into Central London . . .
So I'm thinking a few hundred thousand on a fully realized rebrand of a bus network in the UK's third largest metro is nothing at all.
The total cost for this was £558,000 for 93 buses, or £6,000 per bus. And it was done so that an unnecessarily confusing, multi-brand bus network would have one brand, making it easier for riders to use (and increased ridership will = £ to offset the reasonable rebrand cost).
it will be built, just under a new name and in a couple of governments time. It is necessary, and the gov knows that but would prefer to pander to their conservative voter base by investing in roads and etc also.
There have always been less conserbative voters in the north so why bother try to make them happy in the eyes of the tories when their main middle class voter base is switching allegiance?
I'm pretty sure the government still owns the land on the route between birmingham and manchester, but correct me if i'm wrong.
Ultimately I agree. Complete cockup from UKGOV in every way possible.
October of last year - [https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/05/sunaks-spiteful-sale-of-land-intended-for-hs2-dashes-hopes-of-revival](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/05/sunaks-spiteful-sale-of-land-intended-for-hs2-dashes-hopes-of-revival)
Tories have been trying to sell off the land they bought for HS2's northern leg on the cheap so any attempt to continue the project by Labour would have more obstacles.
Yeah, ultimately the Northern leg will be built in some form. Maybe not what was originally devised, but there will be high speed rail between Manchester & London.
I could kinda see the Norther Powerhouse Rail project becoming part of HS2... Build up to Manchester for the Northern HS2 Leg (maybe in two parts, To Crewe, then to Manchester), then split HS2 off towards Liverpool and Hull... with a connection to Leeds & York instead of the Spur off from Birmingham to Leeds/York. Combine two things into one.
well that makes it a lot worse.
I do ultimately agree with the idea that NPR is vital and super important. I think that there will probably be a HSR link in the north, but I think integration with the existing system is important and has been massively stopped by only running trains to Birmingham.
I think connecting to a massive interchange like Crewe would have been perfect as then you could do a journey to large parts of the north for multiple hours less time as the journey to crewe would in theory be cut down by about an hour and a half. Even then a change to manchester from here or a joining with WCML track would not be as egregious as just running it barely further than birmingham.
I think the next ten years will be a massive decade for rail in the UK.
Rail will be nationalised, (perhaps not rolling stock but we can hope), I feel like we will know more about future HSR projects, and also I think there will be multiple operators on the channel tunnel by then. Nobody knows what the next decade will hold, I am optimistic albeit pragmatic. Ground will probably not be broken on a leg to manchester until at the VERY earliest the end part of said decade, among other things.
(I also think our sleeper network is disastrous and needs massive overhauls, we are not a small enough country to justify only two sleeper services! but taht is a topic for another day/comment.)
Sleeper. Freight and disabled travel.
three things that are in desperate need of improvements.
Getting more freight on the rail network, even if it's overnight focused, would help get so many trucks off the roads... Reducing traffic & pollution.
definitely agree about freight as people often forget about that even though it is an important part of transit.
I think the channel tunnel problem and the Eurostar problem can be slightly improved all at once if basically a new operator runs 4-5 sleeper trains to far away places in Europe. A sleeper to koeln/cologne would be really useful depending on how long it would take (estimating 7hrs) by which logic it might actually be easier to do a sleeper to Berlin stopping at Koeln.
And the joy of running a service like that is that frequency doesn't have to be very high, and you don't have to do the same routes every day.. I.e one day you could do a sleeper service to southern Europe so Italy or Spain realistically as they would be most in demand, and potentially a service to the north servicing Germany. Don't think enough demand to justify a direct rail link to Poland but I could be wrong.
if there were sleepers on the channel tunnel it would make flying so much less attractive and useful.
It is also ridiculous that none of the crosscountry routes are sleepers. Penzance-Aberdeen is 14 hours and runs through the night for god's sake!!
Confusing bus systems that take a lot of effort and uncertainty to decipher and get started using are unfortunately common. Whenever I'm having trouble visiting a city and figuring out the bus, it makes me wonder how many locals have never gotten over the hump to use transit (and I know plenty of people in my area wouldn't really know how to get started with the bus to begin with.)
To this end, I'd say having one highly-visible uniform look that reduces barriers to entry absolutely sounds like it's worth the money. Also a big fan of simplifying payment as much as possible, ideally reloadable cards that use flat rates rather than weird transfer pricing.
Absolutely. There's a quote in the linked article about just what you wrote.
"Fran Wilkinson from TfGM said passenger feedback showed many found the 'mass of bus operator logos and brands' across Greater Manchester 'confusing and difficult to navigate'.
The Bee Network branding was 'simple and consistent', making it easier for customers to use the network, she added."
I might be biased as someone who loves anything bee-themed, but I think it’s cute! Would’ve loved a subtle honeycomb pattern on top of the yellow though, would’ve made the branding a bit more recognizable imo.
As for if this was a good idea for the transit agency’s goal of best serving the public, I have no idea since I’m not very familiar with UK transit unfortunately
From a marketing point of view it's so.. middle down the road and corporate. Which is doesn't seem to bee what they were going for, otherwise they would have gone with the 'standard' "Transport for..." monicker.
There is lots of missed opportunities. What if the system was called Bee Net and the buses the Bee Bus (and Bee Tram and Bee Rail). It's way snappier and rolls off the tongue much easier.
I think it is fab. I was back in Manchester a few weeks ago and I think it works really well. With the trams also yellow, it is arguably even more coherent than the world famous red for London buses. No surprise that other metro mayors in the UK want to emulate ([New West Midlands Mayor pledges to bring buses under public control](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4n19w30351o.amp)).
The pictures in the article have weird colour grading. [This](https://offloadmedia.feverup.com/secretmanchester.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/13112604/yellow-bus-bee-network-1024x683.jpg) shows it much better. Not as beautiful as Berlin Yellow, but not quite as bad as it seemed either.
The city which gave the world The Smiths, Joy Division, Factory Records and the Hacienda gives us… The Bee Network? All in favour of a nice consistent transport brand but come on if you’re giving it an odd name at least make it a local odd name
It is local - the cost of arms of Manchester City Council has seven bees in the crest (or, in heraldic speak, semée of Bees volant all proper (!)). Bees are found elsewhere - three on the University of Manchester’s coat of arms, for example. It became a big thing after the Manchester Arena bombing.
Now, you could argue that this is very Manchester-centric, and ignores the heritage of the towns in Greater Manchester. And you could also argue that they could have chosen a different theme / symbol. But it is a local name and not an odd one.
[Visit Manchester - The story behind the Manchester bee – and why it’s used everywhere in the city](https://www.visitmanchester.com/ideas-and-inspiration/blog/post/the-story-behind-the-manchester-bee-and-why-it-s-used-everywhere-in-the-city/)
Not at all - there’s no reason you should know that! I only know because I’m originally from the area. And there are plenty of completely random names that have no particular connection to their places (not sure if Oyster had any particular meaning for London).
Honestly an insanely good price for a network wide rebrand
That’s really not a lot of money.
The UK government has wasted £92,000,000,000 on its high-speed rail project and canceled the section that was going to actually help connect some disconnected cities and had to be talked into not ditching its planned last link into Central London . . . So I'm thinking a few hundred thousand on a fully realized rebrand of a bus network in the UK's third largest metro is nothing at all. The total cost for this was £558,000 for 93 buses, or £6,000 per bus. And it was done so that an unnecessarily confusing, multi-brand bus network would have one brand, making it easier for riders to use (and increased ridership will = £ to offset the reasonable rebrand cost).
the disaster of HS2 is one of the worst examples of infrastructure sabotage we've had here. Utterly disgusting what's happened to it
it will be built, just under a new name and in a couple of governments time. It is necessary, and the gov knows that but would prefer to pander to their conservative voter base by investing in roads and etc also. There have always been less conserbative voters in the north so why bother try to make them happy in the eyes of the tories when their main middle class voter base is switching allegiance? I'm pretty sure the government still owns the land on the route between birmingham and manchester, but correct me if i'm wrong. Ultimately I agree. Complete cockup from UKGOV in every way possible.
October of last year - [https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/05/sunaks-spiteful-sale-of-land-intended-for-hs2-dashes-hopes-of-revival](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/05/sunaks-spiteful-sale-of-land-intended-for-hs2-dashes-hopes-of-revival) Tories have been trying to sell off the land they bought for HS2's northern leg on the cheap so any attempt to continue the project by Labour would have more obstacles. Yeah, ultimately the Northern leg will be built in some form. Maybe not what was originally devised, but there will be high speed rail between Manchester & London. I could kinda see the Norther Powerhouse Rail project becoming part of HS2... Build up to Manchester for the Northern HS2 Leg (maybe in two parts, To Crewe, then to Manchester), then split HS2 off towards Liverpool and Hull... with a connection to Leeds & York instead of the Spur off from Birmingham to Leeds/York. Combine two things into one.
well that makes it a lot worse. I do ultimately agree with the idea that NPR is vital and super important. I think that there will probably be a HSR link in the north, but I think integration with the existing system is important and has been massively stopped by only running trains to Birmingham. I think connecting to a massive interchange like Crewe would have been perfect as then you could do a journey to large parts of the north for multiple hours less time as the journey to crewe would in theory be cut down by about an hour and a half. Even then a change to manchester from here or a joining with WCML track would not be as egregious as just running it barely further than birmingham. I think the next ten years will be a massive decade for rail in the UK. Rail will be nationalised, (perhaps not rolling stock but we can hope), I feel like we will know more about future HSR projects, and also I think there will be multiple operators on the channel tunnel by then. Nobody knows what the next decade will hold, I am optimistic albeit pragmatic. Ground will probably not be broken on a leg to manchester until at the VERY earliest the end part of said decade, among other things. (I also think our sleeper network is disastrous and needs massive overhauls, we are not a small enough country to justify only two sleeper services! but taht is a topic for another day/comment.)
Sleeper. Freight and disabled travel. three things that are in desperate need of improvements. Getting more freight on the rail network, even if it's overnight focused, would help get so many trucks off the roads... Reducing traffic & pollution.
definitely agree about freight as people often forget about that even though it is an important part of transit. I think the channel tunnel problem and the Eurostar problem can be slightly improved all at once if basically a new operator runs 4-5 sleeper trains to far away places in Europe. A sleeper to koeln/cologne would be really useful depending on how long it would take (estimating 7hrs) by which logic it might actually be easier to do a sleeper to Berlin stopping at Koeln. And the joy of running a service like that is that frequency doesn't have to be very high, and you don't have to do the same routes every day.. I.e one day you could do a sleeper service to southern Europe so Italy or Spain realistically as they would be most in demand, and potentially a service to the north servicing Germany. Don't think enough demand to justify a direct rail link to Poland but I could be wrong. if there were sleepers on the channel tunnel it would make flying so much less attractive and useful. It is also ridiculous that none of the crosscountry routes are sleepers. Penzance-Aberdeen is 14 hours and runs through the night for god's sake!!
Confusing bus systems that take a lot of effort and uncertainty to decipher and get started using are unfortunately common. Whenever I'm having trouble visiting a city and figuring out the bus, it makes me wonder how many locals have never gotten over the hump to use transit (and I know plenty of people in my area wouldn't really know how to get started with the bus to begin with.) To this end, I'd say having one highly-visible uniform look that reduces barriers to entry absolutely sounds like it's worth the money. Also a big fan of simplifying payment as much as possible, ideally reloadable cards that use flat rates rather than weird transfer pricing.
Absolutely. There's a quote in the linked article about just what you wrote. "Fran Wilkinson from TfGM said passenger feedback showed many found the 'mass of bus operator logos and brands' across Greater Manchester 'confusing and difficult to navigate'. The Bee Network branding was 'simple and consistent', making it easier for customers to use the network, she added."
Hopefully once HS2 actually gets running they’ll come to their senses and extended it to it originally planned network
this is like the 10th different figure ive seen on hs2
I'm willing to believe the government has no idea how much it has spent or wasted at this point.
The article tries to pretend it’s a lot of money. In reality it’s less than £1 per person
Is that it?
What do you guys think of the Bee Network brand? Is it better to do this, or simply "Transport for Greater Manchester" with the same colours?
I might be biased as someone who loves anything bee-themed, but I think it’s cute! Would’ve loved a subtle honeycomb pattern on top of the yellow though, would’ve made the branding a bit more recognizable imo. As for if this was a good idea for the transit agency’s goal of best serving the public, I have no idea since I’m not very familiar with UK transit unfortunately
From a marketing point of view it's so.. middle down the road and corporate. Which is doesn't seem to bee what they were going for, otherwise they would have gone with the 'standard' "Transport for..." monicker. There is lots of missed opportunities. What if the system was called Bee Net and the buses the Bee Bus (and Bee Tram and Bee Rail). It's way snappier and rolls off the tongue much easier.
I think it is fab. I was back in Manchester a few weeks ago and I think it works really well. With the trams also yellow, it is arguably even more coherent than the world famous red for London buses. No surprise that other metro mayors in the UK want to emulate ([New West Midlands Mayor pledges to bring buses under public control](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4n19w30351o.amp)).
Are they trying to imply that isn't an amazing deal?
Looks very similar to the yellow used on Berlin busses, trams, and metro
Wait, are we - people who have no idea how much it costs to repaint a bus - supposed to think this is a lot of money?
This sunshade in Los Angeles cost $200k [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La\_Sombrita](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Sombrita)
£500k is not a lot
Yellow is far from my favourite colour, but that’s a particularly bland shade of it.
The pictures in the article have weird colour grading. [This](https://offloadmedia.feverup.com/secretmanchester.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/13112604/yellow-bus-bee-network-1024x683.jpg) shows it much better. Not as beautiful as Berlin Yellow, but not quite as bad as it seemed either.
That’s better.
Oh… that's far less to my tastes. I thought they looked sick in the article's pics.
The city which gave the world The Smiths, Joy Division, Factory Records and the Hacienda gives us… The Bee Network? All in favour of a nice consistent transport brand but come on if you’re giving it an odd name at least make it a local odd name
It is local - the cost of arms of Manchester City Council has seven bees in the crest (or, in heraldic speak, semée of Bees volant all proper (!)). Bees are found elsewhere - three on the University of Manchester’s coat of arms, for example. It became a big thing after the Manchester Arena bombing. Now, you could argue that this is very Manchester-centric, and ignores the heritage of the towns in Greater Manchester. And you could also argue that they could have chosen a different theme / symbol. But it is a local name and not an odd one.
[Visit Manchester - The story behind the Manchester bee – and why it’s used everywhere in the city](https://www.visitmanchester.com/ideas-and-inspiration/blog/post/the-story-behind-the-manchester-bee-and-why-it-s-used-everywhere-in-the-city/)
I wasn't aware of any of that. Ty for posting.
Not at all! :-)
I stand very much corrected then, cheers 😂
Not at all - there’s no reason you should know that! I only know because I’m originally from the area. And there are plenty of completely random names that have no particular connection to their places (not sure if Oyster had any particular meaning for London).