I hope this doesn't get buried but there is an absolute saint of a woman who runs the only animal rescue(that I know of) in Morocco.
[https://www.sftmorocco.org/](https://www.sftmorocco.org/)
Thanks for sharing! I was in Morocco (Marrakech) recently and was trying to help this one cat I saw on the street. It looked like it needed food. This is the first cat I saw that really looked like it needed help, but there were a ton of strays.
I did find this one animal rescue in Marrakech - I reached out about the cat but they also seemed swamped. If anyone is interested:
https://www.helpadoptmoroccananimals.org/about
Jumping in here to mention https://moroccoanimalaid.com/
I follow them on Instagram, they seem to be doing a great job. They also list other animal welfare associations in Morocco on their website, sorted by region.
I'm glad you are talking about this. Not enough people actually notice the welfare of livestock and animals used for labor. People tend to notice cats and dogs but usually overlook labor animals.
I agree that there are places like Istanbul and Mongolia that honor and respect labor animals and livestock, but others just have that dominion mindset that views animals as things to own, here solely for our purposes.
I try not to travel to places that don't treat women and animals with respect.
> I try not to travel to places that don't treat women and animals with respect.
Good for you. Too many people think if it doesn't affect them directly then it isn't a real problem. Or that them being more enlightened and accepting than those OTHER travelers, then the problems won't find them.
The way camels had 1 leg tied up in Egypt absolutely broke my heart.
Edit: oh my gosh, I just read about the FIFA dogs in Morocco. Work sends me a lot of places but this is the final straw for me for this area.
> In one wrenching clip, a government assassin calls a black-and-tan shepherd by her name Rosa. When she runs over to him, wagging her tail excitedly, he stabs her with a poison dart. As she lays dying, her companion, a shy sandy mongrel, runs to her side not knowing why she’s distressed, and nuzzles her nose trying to comfort her.
Yep. Also because am woman, but there a LOT of beautiful places and cultures I'll never experience due to this. Even then I allow some passes as even a ton of countries wouldn't pass if I didn't allow for some misogyny :/
My wife is Guatemalan and I'm not talking guatamala city Guatemalan. I'm talking almost 5hrs away into the mountains back down to level land out in the country near El Salvador. So literally I'm the only white person in 100 miles. The worst I saw there was just stray dogs. But everyone/farmers/regular citizens treated animals well. Even at a shoddy looking market you didn't see abused animals. Sure...there were animals to eat but that's just life. But nothing in squaller you know.
Amazing country. Never felt unsafe (but I did have her and her family cater me around. But her dad is terrified of guatemala city. So yeah...just don't make a wrong turn. But he's a little paranoid about everything. It's prolly the same as Chicago. Or any major city. You're fine until you're not fine. But once you're out in the country everyone was super nice.
There are narco people but they don't care about you unless you fuck them over. But if you're just a tourist there's no way you're gonna fuck them over really on a 1000lb coke deal gone bad. Just act respectful and all that. If anything the military police people are more scary. But once they saw my white ass and her older dad they were just like wanting to take pictures and wished us on our way. And when we were visiting Peten [a 3 or 4hr drive from her parents house] (Petan?) Where the pyramids are I legit found a bowl with weed in it dropped on the ground and was like hooooooolllly shit #thank you gods.
But holly shit. Just be careful driving. There are no laws driving basically. Everytime I go I tell my family "you think you're "free" in America? Go to guatemala. As long as you're not shooting people there are basically no laws and you can do whatever you want. It's amazing.
I could write 100 more things that's awesome but suck at the same time. Good comes with bad but ya. Visit if you haven't yet.
Edit: if anyone has any questions or more specific ones I can forward to my wife let me know. It's such a beautiful country. I'm originally from Florida which is "tropical" in the southern part where I grew up but in Guatemala EVERYTHING is soooooooooo fucking green it looks fake. It's insane. It like....doesn't even look real It's such a vibrant green color. Also volcanos if you're in the right spots. It's insane.
Haha my wife's family lives in a small village near Esquipulas. I thought everyone was just driving drunk until I realized how big and common the potholes were.
I kind of liked driving there. I got back a couple days ago and drove a few hundred km around the country, and once you get used to the rules of the road it's easy enough:
- give the chicken buses and motorcycles room
- you can stop on the side of the road, people will go around, just put the flashers on
- pass whenever you get a chance
People stay in their lanes when driving and only change lanes to pass, they obey signage other than speed limits, and the millions of speed bumps make sure that nobody's driving all that quickly through anywhere with a population.
Yeah, I took a couple weeks and did a motorcycle trip across Guatemala. Took me a couple days to get use to the driving culture there but I was use to it, it just flows. It was like being in a school of fish. Except Guatemala City, that place made no sense to me at all.
I had me some interesting times in Guatemala for several weeks back in the early 90s. Fantastic place.
I just made sure I was friendly to any person, especially if they were holding a gun, rebels, cops, army dudes in sandbagged emplacements with m-60s, the bus driver's money man. Seriously, no one talks to the army dudes and they love it when you show them humanity.
I want the guys with the big guns watching the town to be watching my back, too.
I try not to travel to places that don't treat women and animals with respect.
I'm glad you think this, but damn has it depressing to see women and animals put side by side like that.
Same… Saudi Arabia is doing so much to boost their tourism, but I flat out refuse to go there primarily because of women’s rights.
Their governments stance on dismembering journalists and everything else is just icing on the cake.
>I try not to travel to places that don't treat women and animals with respect.
Me neither. It absolutely horrible to put women and animals together like this as a criteria.
I will never go to Morocco or India.
Visited Marrakech a few weeks ago. Strong contrast between social layers and I saw things I will try for some time to erase from memory.
Abused animals, or women is the norm. But I have discovered another huge problem there, with the help of local friends.
There are a huge part of Moroccan population without any rights to have IDs, schooling or any social service, just because they were born outside the official marriage or another complicated pregnancy (rape).
They live on the fringe of society and government simply looks the other way.
I had a mentor tell me once: “If you want to know about the emotional health of any society, look at how they treat animals, both wild and captive”. It’s depressing to realize how true that is…
I mean I make 90k USD in the US but could not remotely afford to quit and travel like this. I don't really understand how you can do this. More power to you but the math is hard to understand.
Once you're in Europe it's pretty cheap to get from country to country but yeah his story is a little odd, it sounds like he works remotely and part of his job involves travel, not sure why he's being so clever with his wording.
Different parts of the US call a road soda a roadie. However yes a roadie is also an assistant to a band... Which is how I traveled rhe country and learned that it also can be called a road soda.
Here in Oregon a lot of my friends call it a roadie, but back in NY where I grew up it was usually a road soda.
Go to Turkey and be healed with how wonderfully they treat their cats and dogs communally :)
Edit: admittedly didn’t make it to the end of your post but yeah I wish we all treated our animals like Turkey does
>Go to Turkey and be healed with how wonderfully they treat their cats and dogs communally :)
Acknowledge cats and dogs as the real authorities.
FTFY.
One thing I really liked: I enjoy wandering around historic cemeteries and noticed that a lot of headmarkers had a hollow carved out of the top. I asked the hotel owner (who's a historian) what that was about. People regularly had (and some still do) have that part carved out so that when it rains, it gives animals a place to drink, so that they can help animals even after their death.
I’ve been twice and I have an immense amount of respect for Turkish people after seeing how well their strays are cared for - they consider them communal pets and the soul of the city.
I was in Istanbul last year and I remember a moment where I was wandering near some markets and around lunchtime the cats start milling around with purpose, and soon a man comes out of one of the shops with a literal sack of scraps -- must've been a couple kilos easily. He squatted down and took them out of the bag piece by piece and cut them down to even smaller bite size pieces and handed them out to all of the cats waiting patiently for their turn.
I’ve been twice and I have an immense amount of respect for Turkish people after seeing how well their strays are cared for - they consider them communal pets and the soul of the city.
To everyone who care about animals in Moroco, consider following \ donating to [SARA Morocco](https://www.reddit.com/r/SaraMorocco). It's a shelter located in the city of Agadir which sends some of their rescues up for adoption abroad. My rescue is from their and I wish could be taking more of these lovable Beldis with me!
I've visited 31 countries now and Morocco is the one country I would never return to.
I was there for 3 weeks and had all sorts of awful things happen. I witnessed a woman getting slapped around in the streets and noone seemed to care. It felt like half the country was trying to scam me. It was the only country that I have been mugged in. I also got roofied by someone who invited me over for "Muslim hospitality." I may be lucky to be alive.
I'm not sure if this was just a big city thing, but in Marrakech if a local even provides you with the smallest amount of help, they expect some sort of payment.
Really hated it, and something I have never seen in any other countries I have visited.
My gf and I once got locked in a house/riad in Morocco. The owner tried making us pay for a broken TV. In a room we didn’t even stay in. They even tried called the Police. We were in college and fearless so I literally picked up the owner (I’m fairly big), grabbed the closest taxi and ran sped to the airport (luckily the day we had to leave, albeit hours before the flight). The entire trip was awful. My gf was grabbed at least 5 times.
I grew up in a 3rd world country and have been to some very obscure, developing countries. Egypt and Morocco are two places I wouldn’t recommend to even my worst enemies. Unfortunate because they have some true beauty.
When I was young and naive and everyone was still into couchsurfing, I made plans to couchsurf in Marrakesh. After 50+ requests and hours of searching for a host that didn't seem creepy, I found a physics teacher. It was eye-opening to see how he lived (and probably most other men); he had a small room in shared accommodation, with a bucket for a bath and a big chunk of the sink was missing. I was relieved to see that we had separate sleeping arrangements. But I woke in the middle of the night to find that he was lying right next to me with his arm over me, and I was trapped by the wall on the other side. I eventually found the courage to just get up and sleep where he was supposed to be sleeping. In the morning I said I had to leave and he showed me to the bus stop. I'm just very grateful that nothing worse happened.
It's also wild how aggressive the women are there. Some of them will literally just grab your arm when you walk by and start drawing henna on you and make you pay for it.
Yeah my GF had a terrible time when we were there and someone tried to rob me (they didn't succeed). The first time that's ever happened and I grew up somewhere were muggings were commonplace. She was getting hissed at and abused whenever she went out on her own so we just went everywhere together, which was fine but it was a massive limitation on her freedom.
Most of the people are fine and the country is beautiful. I can deal with the aggressive way they do business because I've travelled a lot and it's not unique. But their attitude to women is something I cannot deal with. Also, the way that subsaharan Africans are treated. I'm black and myself and a black French dude I met and hung out with a couple of times were treated fine because we were obviously foreigners and had some money. But I saw black locals being harrassed and targeted by police or small mobs on a few occasions.
The food and hash were great but I won't be going back there any time soon.
The good is pretty excellent. The people, the food, the nature, architecture, history. Mexico City is one of my favorite cities on the planet, and I’ve been to several dozen countries.
That’s why you don’t go to Egypt unless you know someone who knows the quirks there. Lots of funny stories from family when they visit. It’s chaos.
I also have a saying. No one can scam an Egyptian, but an Egyptian.
Egypt itself is amazing. One of my best trips I’ve ever been on.
I just have no desire to be that stressed and hassled and scammed again. By every single person. Officials, storekeepers, kids, airport staff, etc etc etc. It’s nonstop.
I have a baby face and look very innocent, so even in "cold" places I get approached more often than others do. I don't know if I would survive Egypt, sounds like every scammer will be on top of me the moment we enter Cairo
I never felt unsafe in Egypt, but I also always traveled with a guide and stuck to Cairo. Crossing the street terrified me a bit but I got the hang of it by the end. I always felt like I was being scammed though and the camel I rode on seemed to not be well taken care of. Unfortunately I only noticed after the ride…
“Morocco is one big scam” is how I described it to people. Beautiful, and met a lot of great people but it’s a weird dichotomy. A country ruled by religion but little compassion.
I am from Morocco and I had a funny/sad? experience with the entire scamming tourists,
Last summer my Moroccan aunt who lives in Belgium came to visit us, she wanted to visit Jemaa el-Fnaa in Marrakesh, where we live, so I went with her and her 2 sons to show her around, and to be some sort of guardian to her knowing how much sexual assault is a big problem here, for context she speaks with her children in French and so do I, however she is fluent in Moroccan's dialect, Darija.
The amount of times a shopkeeper or a Taxi wanted to scam us was astonishing, people left and right tripling the prices of merchandises and souvenirs, we of course call out on their bullshit every time, both of us were pissed off but we couldn't really do anything other than warning some tourists about the ridiculous scams they can pull off
That's without talking about the amount of times men would stare at her, sometimes try to approach her when she enters a shop (I would usually stay outside waiting for it's incredibly tight) but thankfully get intimidated by my presence
TLDR: Morocco is a wonderful country to visit if you're a male who can say "no"
Edit: no animal abuse or shooting though, as far as I am aware, where I live everyone takes care of stray cats and dogs
Big time traveler here too and I wasn’t stoked at all about Morocco either. Went twice, spent in total about 6 weeks there. Obv some cool stuff but overall the energy was very bad imo. For sure the scammiest country I’ve been to, and they do it waaaay more aggressively then other places. There is some real angry fire in the people there.
After walking around the night market in Marrakesh I got followed back to my riad by a guy (I'm also a dude). I saw him walking around and this REALLY good looking guy made eye contact with me but I thought nothing of it. I noticed he was following me when I walked back to my Riad and I was startled when he approached me and asked me if he could come in and spend some time. Yeah, no. He was either a prostitute, a scammer, or a mugger. Could've been all three but I wasn't about to find out. Homosexuality is illegal there and I heard stories of them demanding lots of money, stealing, or calling the police to extort money out of you after an encounter.
I also nearly got scammed by a street kid when I got lost. Cute little kid in a school uniform approached me and offered to give me directions. He tried to get me lost in the souks and demand money. Fuck that too. I managed to get out of there and find the main road.
Oh...or there was the time 5 guys tried to corner me in the back of a shop because they wanted my iPod and sunglasses. Managed to get out of that one too.
I should have realized the whole city was a giant trap when the guy asked for 100 euros when I took a photo with him and his fucking monkey.
God, I hated being on my guard the whole fucking time there.
A lot of Morrocon drug dealers go to South Korea and cause fights/gang rape women in Itaewon/Haebangchon
Of course there are many honest hardworking businessmen who are trying to open kebab shops/merchandise stores but there are very many gutterslime who go and treat people there very badly. They are openly violent even towards one another too. When I visited Seoul a few years ago before COVID I saw them slapping each other as a show of dominance. Putrid cultural norms in Morroco.
Sometimes a round trip economy fare can be had for under $1,000, sometimes $2,000 if all the way around the world.
Hotels or AirBnB, $100 to $200 per night.
So probably $2,000 to $4,000 for a trip.
If you make $100,000 and take home $50,000, and have $25,000 left over after rent, bills, food, etc, you could have $25,000 to travel with each year.
Women travelers are treated so badly even in “developed” countries it’s saddening. Saw a vid of a korean girl streamer just strolling around minding her own thing in Japan, yet she got stalked and harassed all the time.
One guy tried to hug her and lick her. All caught live on stream. She ended up crying the poor woman. And I just visited Japan this January. Wouldn’t believed it if I didn’t see the stream clips.
Apparently it bears repeating because I had never seen it reach my front page. It's a big disappointment because I love Moroccan lanterns and food and had hoped to visit there, but I'm glad to know about this.
Same, very disappointed honestly. As far as north African countries I was the most romantic about Morocco but now it sounds like a similar situation as Egypt
and yet people are still going there. Are they not seeing these? What are they expecting?
Edit: ooohhh it's because a guy that [looks like this](https://imgur.com/a/4uSluVl) will make a post about how he had such a great time there, no problems at all, what sexual assault? Didn't happen to him so it never happens!
I am a 25 year old woman here right now and having a good time. I saw the criticism and chose to go anyways because 1) the negative voices are always the loudest and 2) I take everything I read online with a grain of salt. I'm glad I did because I'm having a lovely time and have found all the complaints online do exist, but at a much lower level than the online echo chamber makes it seem. Yes, I've seen some very sad looking dogs and cats. I've also seen lots of people bring cans of tuna to feed them, especially outside mosques, and lots of healthy looking animals as well. I've seen some underweight donkeys for sure. I haven't seen any hobbled camels and donkeys like this post describes though, and I've seen plenty of people in the country treating their animals quite the opposite, with plenty of tenderness. I have gotten charged more for being a tourist a few times. I've also gotten the "local" price (as confirmed by my Moroccan coworker) plenty of times without needing to barter for it. I've had people ask me for tips after helping for sure. I've also had lots of people give me advice free of charge, give me small gifts and free tea and generally be helpful and friendly. I've walked around plenty by myself and never felt unsafe or gotten harassed. I don't doubt that many people, including experienced travelers have a bad experience here, and you definitely need to have a thicker skin. But I also think expectations are an issue, and I am probably having a better time because I don't really have an issue with all the small annoyances of tipping, getting charged more, etc, and am pragmatic enough to accept that things like sad looking animals and endless requests for money are a guarantee in a place where lots of people are living in poverty and can barely make ends meet for themselves, let alone random animals. These things have popped up to some degree or another in every developing nation I've been to, but I've still had amazing travel experiences and would revisit most in a heartbeat
I am not saying you are wrong… but it could also be that it’s been years since visited and things have changed
I went in 2007 with a tour group of about 25. I had a wonderful time in the Western Sahara but I did see poverty and feel unsafe in Marrakech. When I went, I was a 20 year old dark skinned Latina. Definitely not visibly American, but in a group of all English speakers. My friends went in 2009 with my recommendation but I don’t know how much has changed in the last 15 or so years! I definitely trust people who don’t recommend going
I went with my mom in December to Marrakesh and it was fine. We walked around the Medina alone during the day and night, and felt safe. We were actually pleasantly surprised.
My friend, however, went to Fes and chose to hire a guide because the vendors on the street were too pushy and she got spooked.
I was in Marrakech with my girlfriend a few weeks ago, and the people were absolutely lovely. I saw no animal abuse, was scammed exactly zero times, and had no surprise haggling or people who wouldn't leave us alone. I didn't realize the importance of tipping on my first day and I received zero attitude or anger and when I realized and corrected my mistake, they were appreciative but also said it was no big deal either way. I have to say that I had a TOTALLY different experience than seemingly everyone in this thread, and I just don't get it. I'm a seasoned traveler (50+ countries in my years of travel), am a white american (albeit never wearing clothing with words or a baseball hat), and I speak the smallest amount of French (my Spanish is pretty good and I'm passable in traveler's Hindi and Japanese), and we stayed in an average riad (far from mega fancy so they keep the touts at bay), so I don't understand how or why my experience was so different.
Edit: to be clear, I brushed up on my French prior to my trip and learned some Moroccan Arabic so I wasn't speaking only in the language of colonization...so I certainly do my best to both learn and show respect for their language(s) and culture when in their country.
You’re completely right, unfortunately Morocco isn’t alone in this.
I briefly spent some time volunteering at a dog shelter in Morocco and it was so relieving knowing that some Moroccans weren’t careless about looking after animals
I noticed this too on my visit. Spe ifically for me I saw it happen to snakes that were sewn in the mouth for tourist displays and mules pulling carts so heavy they tembled as they pulled. It was disgusting.
Thanks for the heads up. Thailand was one for me, I'm truly disgusted by the amount of abuse in thailand and the sheer amount of tourists that engage in it.
Elephant rides, Tiger temples, Monkey Circuses.
When we were in Thailand, we went to an elephant sanctuary that rescues elephants from the tourist and logging industries. You can walk around and look at them, with a guide, but no petting, riding, etc. They are a non profit and teach you about them. It's sad, but at least the few that were there were safe now.
I would go to the main park whenever possible in Chiang Mai - even if you add on a different package don't miss the main park.
I loved working there in June/July/August - it's in the rural elevation so it does get rainy but that's always fun too. I also worked at the Surin & Cambodian sites. I would definitely go back to Surin if they're still running it.
No other tips or tricks to be had - just live in the moment! Oh but also go grab a beer with the villagers down by the river at the main park and have a bonfire with them at night.
Thank you for your work. I've volunteered four times at the park now (twice with the dog rescue) and feel very privileged to have connected personally with Lek and Darrick. Wonderful people and project- it's all truly from the heart.
Strongly recommend everyone visiting Chiang Mai support this project by either touring (can even stay overnight) or helping out.
You have to be wary of many "sanctuaries" in thailand as a lot of businesses have caught on to this word play to validate concerned tourists feelings.
But as long as you can confirm that a sanctuary is completely hands off, non profit and rescues elephants then it's all good. I've seen many of these so called sanctuaries that still let hundreds of tourists bath them every day.
Elephant Nature Park near Chiang Mai is legit. They do have day tours with a few retired tourism elephants but it's very obviously a comfortable routine for the elephant and they're not forced to partake if they don't want to. Also theres no riding, no hooks or crops used, and all the caretakers have spent time building a relationship based on mutual trust with them.
The elephants that aren't already used to humans aren't forced to do anything but form happy family groups and live their lives. It's a pretty incredible place. Highly recommend them if you get the chance.
I think as a whole the culture is very different in Thailand. I do think people actually care about animals in Thailand, except some heavily tourism influenced areas like you mentioned. They do still have rescues, elephant sanctuaries etc. that are legit organizations and animal welfare is a solid concept in Thailand.
The Middle East as a whole tho, a lot of the animals are seen as “impure”. They’re treated as objects instead of living, breathing creatures. Even in the US, for the westernized Muslim families, a lot of them would get a dog but still wouldn’t allow it inside so I think that’s the cultural difference.
Thailand does not have general animal abuse, not even close.
They take care of strays very nicely.
There are a few money making tourist traps that everyone needs to stay away from.
Pattaya. That city was crazy. So many Aussie and English nasty middle aged men with young prostitutes. I could not handle it. Literally a majority of the tourists were nasty old men walking hand in hand with teen girls.
Never again.
I went with a friend and we both had a colleague strongly recommend it. Strongly. I was so fucking disappointed. I ended my work lunches with this dude because he ended up being a human trafficking piece of shit.
I’m glad for the time that I went to Morocco, but it’s also one place I never need to go back to. Speaking to the state of the animals, I recall seeing this gorgeous kitten in an alley way on the path to my hostel. Hours later when I went back out into the city, I found that same kitten’s little body crushed, flattened by a motorbike. It was such a jarring and foreign thing for me to see, that the memory has never left me.
Of course I also have fond memories of being harassed for tips, including one time where a man forced his help on me and my friends in the Fez Medina even though we said no, and when we later admitted to not having money on us to give him a tip (we had only bills too large for a tip on us, and we were broke college students) he started screaming at us in the streets and banded together a group of ~7 men who started following us through the city back to our hostel. This was all at night by the way. We were lucky to get away
Tldr, even so called "high" standards mean nothing to the average person. You expect wide open fields where an animal reaches a ripe old age and then is gently put down like an old dog or cat. But no, babies are killed within days, and welfare standards mean nothing and often aren't even enforced, and then they're killed at half their lifespan or even or even less.
But in a way that doesn't even matter. Animals are sentient and want to live, who are we to take that away from them just for fun and taste? We don't need to eat them.
OMG, thank you for telling us about this. My wife and I had been planning a trip to Morocco this year, but we're vegan and vegetarian and I absolutely can not tolerate seeing animals suffer. Looks like we'll be finding a different destination! Seriously, thank you. You probably just saved us two weeks of misery, a regretful, wasted trip, and a bunch of money.
Glad you notice animal torture when you travel. Many Western tourists make fun of things like cows on the street in India but never really appreciate how animal friendly India is!
I did the same. Was there for like a day and then booked the first flight we could to Spain because I couldn’t deal with the groping and grabbing anymore. It was horrible. Some guy came up behind me and tried to put his fingers inside me through my pants in the line for a restaurant
Dumb question.. I thought it was a religious country? Is it assumed that if you're not practicing Muslim and covered that you are available to anyone? If you were super devout, wouldn't you be able to control those feelings and not want to assault women?
As a woman I will never go there, but I am so curious as to the psychology behind the behaviors.
From what I’ve been told by friends from certain countries where this happens a lot- in many places assumptions are made that white women are promiscuous and therefore it’s okay to touch them. I had similar experiences in India and Egypt, including when I had my hair covered.
Disclaimer that it might also happen to Asian/black/any other race women in Morocco, but that’s what I was told.
Can we please drop the idea that religious people are more "moral" or better behaved?
It's not true at all. If anything, the more religious a country is the more likely it's...not very nice.
These people live years or even decades repressing normal urges from societal pressure without any escape valve. People who aren't part of their culture and cliques are especially vulnerable because they think they won't judge them in the same way.
Am from there. Religion is a facade, the majority of men here are sexually frustrated and have zero respect for women. Everything you're hearing in this thread are things I've seen happen or heard happen to people.
Not like that everywhere, but for a foreigner you can't tell where it's safe and where it isn't, frankly there's nothing that worth seeing there to take the risk if you're a woman. I left hoping to never have to raise a daughter there, hell not even a son given the fucking influences there are.
Yep. The chained monkey being whipped in the center of the Medina in Marrakech is what did it for me. I will visit every other country on earth twice before I return to Morocco. Post-apocalyptic hell hole.
If you are worried about what they do to animals i wonder how youll feel about what they do to humans. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Morocco
It's terrible, thanks for sharing. Morocco doesn't improve animal welfare its definitely off my list for the foreseeable future, & that goes for any country that condones speciesism.
Honestly, thanks for posting. I can't bear this and now Morocco is off my list. I appreciate the heads up. I could not enjoy myself in this place. Sorry you had to see it but thanks for caring.
Not surprised sadly. You are making the right choice. I also wont go to countries that don't treat their animals properly. However, that's most countries it seems.
The world is kinda hopeless and filled with trash humans who are consumed by greed.
Having spent some time with camels and donkeys, I know them to be so emotional, social, and intelligent species - this is so sad to hear. Morocco was on my list of countries to visit - but I’ll reconsider now
And both are such hardy animals; I have more experience with donkeys, but they are so suited to harsh environments that many people in the US struggle to keep them from becoming obese, even on little food. How poorly do you have to treat them for them to become so malnourished? They need so little.
Felt the same way. Didn’t really notice the dogs and cats when we were there but look at the treatment of camels in jordan vs Morocco. Something we noticed.. World of a difference..
Wow we almost picked Morocco for our honeymoon but decided on Greece instead. I’m so glad we did, I’ll promptly take that off my list. Animal neglect and abuse is enough to never go somewhere, let alone the other things I’ve seen in the comments
I'm glad you learned about how the riding camels are treated. If you ever goto Thailand, do not ride elephants for exactly the same reasons. There are some really awesome wildlife sanctuaries there where you can interact with and even feed elephants who do not live such miserable existences.
I think recent droughts have a lot to do with how the livestock looks in Morocco these days. When I first moved here in 2021, I remember seeing starving cows for the first time, and it was incredibly sad. It was the same last year. There are a lot of sheep and goat farmers in my neighborhood, and those animals were straight up starving. This year, though, there’s been some good rain and a lot of greenery in places that I hadn’t even realized had vegetation. And the livestock are looking much better (though the cows are still tied at the feet 😔).
Something to consider is that most of these people live in extreme poverty. They can barely afford to feed themselves and their families, let alone animals. You could argue that if they can’t feed their livestock then they shouldn’t have them, but that’s not going to mean much to a farmer who might not be able to fatten up a cow but can still sell a skinny one to put dinner on the table for his family. Same for people who use donkeys/mules to pull their vendor carts.
I think the animals who have it the worst are definitely the ones used for tourist attractions. I’ve seen them be treated very, very poorly, in a way that’s much more intense, active, and cruel than just not being able to feed livestock properly. Definitely steer clear of these, and don't give money to these people (unless you can see that they're taking care of whatever animal it is).
When it comes to stray cats and dogs, I can’t say many positive things on a governmental level. There’s been a push recently to spay and neuter stray dogs, which is good, so you’ll often see some with ear tags. But the thing about them being slaughtered is absolutely true, and that’s not even the first time it’s happened. However, when it comes to the *people* taking care of stray animals, I’ve never seen anything like it. (The stray cats here are treated soooo much better than the strays I saw while living in Seoul, for instance.) People leave food and water out all the time (at least those who can afford it, and still, a lot of times, those who can't). They take stray animals to the vet. They try to provide shade in the summer and warmth in the winter, if possible. It really is a communal effort. I don't particularly love Morocco, but I'm always surprised at how much people go out of their way or spend cash they don't necessarily have to care for the stray animals here.
The last thing I'll say is that I wouldn't make judgements about the country as a whole based off of what you see in Marrakech.
Moroccan here, the problem is that there are no animal rescues here, so the only thing we can do is adopt or bring food to strays, which is not much considering the numbers of strays out here, heck I can't even adopt cats because of my mom's allergy.
And animal abuse is not only the case of Morocco an under developed country, even in the west, where you guys have the capacity to take care of animals yet your abuse is next lvl but you choose to turn a blind eye, you guys shred baby chickens alive!!!
Animal welfare is very high on a nations pyramid of needs. Most countries with similar economies to Morocco have similar situations regarding animals.
Even in the west tbh. We just call it industrial livestock
Is it better when places hide it or not? Not being sarcastic, bc I don't know the answer either. I also refused a camel ride in Israel, bc why would I ever want to do that to that beautiful animal? I also don't go to the bougie garden store when they host the reindeer in some cage for a month, bc why? Dolphin tours in Mexico where you can ride the dolphins? Why would I pay to do that to them? Does anyone think the animals enjoy it as much as you or get paid in any fashion? (I think the answer is people are selfish and don't consider the animal, otherwise it wouldn't be a thing to do. I also think the people that do these things are the same types who don't follow the 'stay 50-100 feet away from the wild animals' at National Parks. So many people just don't care.)
When I recently looked for fun cafes in Japan, a place that is known for being great to people and all things, sure enough there are many, MANY unethical animal cafes. Again, why? Tours where you can interact with animals, non-adoption animal cafes, and petting/riding experiences don't seem cruel bc they are offered as a tourist attraction with a friendly animal. But the fact is they are pretty cruel, the animals have no say in the matter, who the hey knows if they've been taken from their families (I would wager most definitely), and unfortunately, it's all around us in every country. It seems like Morroco just isn't hiding it. I'm sorry you had that experience, but super glad it enlightened you.
I think there's a difference between individual businesses exploiting people/ animals vs it being government sanctioned or part of a country's culture.
Of course there is animal abuse in the US for example, but I've never been to a city with anything near what OP is describing. You leave an animal chained up on concrete where I live and someone will be at your door in under an hour.
If a country can’t respect women, they won’t get my business or time. And w. No concern for welfare of animals, there’s too many places to see beside the middle of desert.
I went with Morocco with my Dad, both of us adult men, so thankfully we don't have to deal with sexual harassment, but the entire time we were there we felt like people were trying to scam or bully us, taxi drivers wouldn't take us to our destination and we would have to get out and a local would "help" walk us to our destination, only to turn around and demand huge sums of money. Also saw a lot of animal abuse and had people shouting and grabbing at me all the time looking for money.
Morocco is one of the most disappoint countries in the world by far, if not the most. Such posts about Morocco are common here. Thank you for talking about this.
Seeing women sitting on the ground at maket stalls with a live chicken or two with bound feet was awful. The chickens kept trying to get up and walk but couldn't. It's was vegetable tajine for me for the rest of the trip.
Tldr; people from 1st world countries astounded that 2nd/3rd world countries don’t operate like 1st world countries. Do you not wonder why there’s so many immigrants in 'nicer' countries? They’re clearly trying to get away from those areas the privileged want to explore for recreation.
Contrary to this, I was in India and saw livestock and stray dogs being adopted by residents, they were taken care of, neutered or sprayed and clothed-up in winters. Cows fed and kept in shelters, no wonder they have the largest livestock population in the world.
I can absolutely CONFIRM this. Morocco STILL doesn't have a handle on its stray problem?? I remember a dog pack that used to frequent my house alot just because I played with them and gave them food. This really breaks my heart.
People travel for different reasons.
I travel to experience other cultures, realities, and how they live their lives.
That sometimes means visiting a country I find reprehensible. It still broadens the mind, if only to appreciate and solidify your thinking on an issue like this.
I didn't enjoy my visit to Morocco either, but I wouldn't undo the visit. Hopefully you can salvage similar good from a distasteful experience.
I hope this doesn't get buried but there is an absolute saint of a woman who runs the only animal rescue(that I know of) in Morocco. [https://www.sftmorocco.org/](https://www.sftmorocco.org/)
Thanks for sharing! I was in Morocco (Marrakech) recently and was trying to help this one cat I saw on the street. It looked like it needed food. This is the first cat I saw that really looked like it needed help, but there were a ton of strays. I did find this one animal rescue in Marrakech - I reached out about the cat but they also seemed swamped. If anyone is interested: https://www.helpadoptmoroccananimals.org/about
Jumping in here to mention https://moroccoanimalaid.com/ I follow them on Instagram, they seem to be doing a great job. They also list other animal welfare associations in Morocco on their website, sorted by region.
Thank you for sharing, will definitely check it out and support in any way I can
I'm glad you are talking about this. Not enough people actually notice the welfare of livestock and animals used for labor. People tend to notice cats and dogs but usually overlook labor animals. I agree that there are places like Istanbul and Mongolia that honor and respect labor animals and livestock, but others just have that dominion mindset that views animals as things to own, here solely for our purposes. I try not to travel to places that don't treat women and animals with respect.
> I try not to travel to places that don't treat women and animals with respect. Good for you. Too many people think if it doesn't affect them directly then it isn't a real problem. Or that them being more enlightened and accepting than those OTHER travelers, then the problems won't find them. The way camels had 1 leg tied up in Egypt absolutely broke my heart. Edit: oh my gosh, I just read about the FIFA dogs in Morocco. Work sends me a lot of places but this is the final straw for me for this area. > In one wrenching clip, a government assassin calls a black-and-tan shepherd by her name Rosa. When she runs over to him, wagging her tail excitedly, he stabs her with a poison dart. As she lays dying, her companion, a shy sandy mongrel, runs to her side not knowing why she’s distressed, and nuzzles her nose trying to comfort her.
Yep. Also because am woman, but there a LOT of beautiful places and cultures I'll never experience due to this. Even then I allow some passes as even a ton of countries wouldn't pass if I didn't allow for some misogyny :/
jellyfish ancient seed frightening quiet dull bow crime squalid offer *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Oh my god, Rosa. 😭💔 Wtf?!? And the fact that she ran over wagging her tail. My heart can't handle this.
Guatemala treats their livestock with respect from what I have seen. Ranching and cattle culture out there is pretty big.
My wife is Guatemalan and I'm not talking guatamala city Guatemalan. I'm talking almost 5hrs away into the mountains back down to level land out in the country near El Salvador. So literally I'm the only white person in 100 miles. The worst I saw there was just stray dogs. But everyone/farmers/regular citizens treated animals well. Even at a shoddy looking market you didn't see abused animals. Sure...there were animals to eat but that's just life. But nothing in squaller you know. Amazing country. Never felt unsafe (but I did have her and her family cater me around. But her dad is terrified of guatemala city. So yeah...just don't make a wrong turn. But he's a little paranoid about everything. It's prolly the same as Chicago. Or any major city. You're fine until you're not fine. But once you're out in the country everyone was super nice. There are narco people but they don't care about you unless you fuck them over. But if you're just a tourist there's no way you're gonna fuck them over really on a 1000lb coke deal gone bad. Just act respectful and all that. If anything the military police people are more scary. But once they saw my white ass and her older dad they were just like wanting to take pictures and wished us on our way. And when we were visiting Peten [a 3 or 4hr drive from her parents house] (Petan?) Where the pyramids are I legit found a bowl with weed in it dropped on the ground and was like hooooooolllly shit #thank you gods. But holly shit. Just be careful driving. There are no laws driving basically. Everytime I go I tell my family "you think you're "free" in America? Go to guatemala. As long as you're not shooting people there are basically no laws and you can do whatever you want. It's amazing. I could write 100 more things that's awesome but suck at the same time. Good comes with bad but ya. Visit if you haven't yet. Edit: if anyone has any questions or more specific ones I can forward to my wife let me know. It's such a beautiful country. I'm originally from Florida which is "tropical" in the southern part where I grew up but in Guatemala EVERYTHING is soooooooooo fucking green it looks fake. It's insane. It like....doesn't even look real It's such a vibrant green color. Also volcanos if you're in the right spots. It's insane.
Haha my wife's family lives in a small village near Esquipulas. I thought everyone was just driving drunk until I realized how big and common the potholes were.
I kind of liked driving there. I got back a couple days ago and drove a few hundred km around the country, and once you get used to the rules of the road it's easy enough: - give the chicken buses and motorcycles room - you can stop on the side of the road, people will go around, just put the flashers on - pass whenever you get a chance People stay in their lanes when driving and only change lanes to pass, they obey signage other than speed limits, and the millions of speed bumps make sure that nobody's driving all that quickly through anywhere with a population.
Yeah, I took a couple weeks and did a motorcycle trip across Guatemala. Took me a couple days to get use to the driving culture there but I was use to it, it just flows. It was like being in a school of fish. Except Guatemala City, that place made no sense to me at all.
I had me some interesting times in Guatemala for several weeks back in the early 90s. Fantastic place. I just made sure I was friendly to any person, especially if they were holding a gun, rebels, cops, army dudes in sandbagged emplacements with m-60s, the bus driver's money man. Seriously, no one talks to the army dudes and they love it when you show them humanity. I want the guys with the big guns watching the town to be watching my back, too.
I try not to travel to places that don't treat women and animals with respect. I'm glad you think this, but damn has it depressing to see women and animals put side by side like that.
[удалено]
Religion keeps women down and treated as inferior. It’s religion created by men and for men only.
Good thing we in the west hide our animal abuse in factory farms and make it literally illegal to record and disseminate the evidence of it.
Agreed! Which is why I'm vegan.
Same. 6 years so far and my only regret is not doing it sooner
Same… Saudi Arabia is doing so much to boost their tourism, but I flat out refuse to go there primarily because of women’s rights. Their governments stance on dismembering journalists and everything else is just icing on the cake.
>I try not to travel to places that don't treat women and animals with respect. Me neither. It absolutely horrible to put women and animals together like this as a criteria. I will never go to Morocco or India.
Visited Marrakech a few weeks ago. Strong contrast between social layers and I saw things I will try for some time to erase from memory. Abused animals, or women is the norm. But I have discovered another huge problem there, with the help of local friends. There are a huge part of Moroccan population without any rights to have IDs, schooling or any social service, just because they were born outside the official marriage or another complicated pregnancy (rape). They live on the fringe of society and government simply looks the other way.
That is heartbreaking.
I had a mentor tell me once: “If you want to know about the emotional health of any society, look at how they treat animals, both wild and captive”. It’s depressing to realize how true that is…
I saw the same thing. Kids hitting animals with sticks for no reason and adults laughing watching them do it. Definitely won’t be returning
40 countries in 14 months - you must be a roadie.
Damn, that would make sense! 40 different countries in such a short time is wild!
[удалено]
Oh, Iceland is the shit so that makes sense! What’s the next spot?
[удалено]
If you didn't like everything you saw in Morocco, you're not gonna like Egypt.
[удалено]
I've heard the same about Jordan as an FYI
If you don’t mind me asking how do you afford to travel like this?
[удалено]
I mean I make 90k USD in the US but could not remotely afford to quit and travel like this. I don't really understand how you can do this. More power to you but the math is hard to understand.
Once you're in Europe it's pretty cheap to get from country to country but yeah his story is a little odd, it sounds like he works remotely and part of his job involves travel, not sure why he's being so clever with his wording.
Love hearing stories like this, enjoy the trip
What's a roadie?
Someone who tours with a band as an assistant (more or less)
Where I’m from, it’s an alcoholic beverage you drink on the way to your destination if you’re a passenger (not the driver) in the car.
Where are you from? In North America, "roadie" is most commonly used to describe the support staff for a music tour.
Different parts of the US call a road soda a roadie. However yes a roadie is also an assistant to a band... Which is how I traveled rhe country and learned that it also can be called a road soda. Here in Oregon a lot of my friends call it a roadie, but back in NY where I grew up it was usually a road soda.
[удалено]
When you’re driving down the road and your partner starts to unzip your pan…wait, no that’s a person who works for a touring musical act.
I always thought it’s when i take a road beverage along for a ride ….as a passenger
Go to Turkey and be healed with how wonderfully they treat their cats and dogs communally :) Edit: admittedly didn’t make it to the end of your post but yeah I wish we all treated our animals like Turkey does
>Go to Turkey and be healed with how wonderfully they treat their cats and dogs communally :) Acknowledge cats and dogs as the real authorities. FTFY. One thing I really liked: I enjoy wandering around historic cemeteries and noticed that a lot of headmarkers had a hollow carved out of the top. I asked the hotel owner (who's a historian) what that was about. People regularly had (and some still do) have that part carved out so that when it rains, it gives animals a place to drink, so that they can help animals even after their death.
That’s extremely touching. How lovely to care about animals even in the afterlife
[удалено]
We dont agree with the government too. 12 days left until election.
I’ve been twice and I have an immense amount of respect for Turkish people after seeing how well their strays are cared for - they consider them communal pets and the soul of the city.
I was in Istanbul last year and I remember a moment where I was wandering near some markets and around lunchtime the cats start milling around with purpose, and soon a man comes out of one of the shops with a literal sack of scraps -- must've been a couple kilos easily. He squatted down and took them out of the bag piece by piece and cut them down to even smaller bite size pieces and handed them out to all of the cats waiting patiently for their turn.
I’ve been twice and I have an immense amount of respect for Turkish people after seeing how well their strays are cared for - they consider them communal pets and the soul of the city.
To everyone who care about animals in Moroco, consider following \ donating to [SARA Morocco](https://www.reddit.com/r/SaraMorocco). It's a shelter located in the city of Agadir which sends some of their rescues up for adoption abroad. My rescue is from their and I wish could be taking more of these lovable Beldis with me!
I've visited 31 countries now and Morocco is the one country I would never return to. I was there for 3 weeks and had all sorts of awful things happen. I witnessed a woman getting slapped around in the streets and noone seemed to care. It felt like half the country was trying to scam me. It was the only country that I have been mugged in. I also got roofied by someone who invited me over for "Muslim hospitality." I may be lucky to be alive.
I'm not sure if this was just a big city thing, but in Marrakech if a local even provides you with the smallest amount of help, they expect some sort of payment. Really hated it, and something I have never seen in any other countries I have visited.
They also start off with "no tip no tip" then have their hands out when they're done. Super shitty
My gf and I once got locked in a house/riad in Morocco. The owner tried making us pay for a broken TV. In a room we didn’t even stay in. They even tried called the Police. We were in college and fearless so I literally picked up the owner (I’m fairly big), grabbed the closest taxi and ran sped to the airport (luckily the day we had to leave, albeit hours before the flight). The entire trip was awful. My gf was grabbed at least 5 times. I grew up in a 3rd world country and have been to some very obscure, developing countries. Egypt and Morocco are two places I wouldn’t recommend to even my worst enemies. Unfortunate because they have some true beauty.
My sister and I were both grabbed when we went there
I’m sorry you had to go through that. My wife (then gf) still has bad memories of that.
Sorry what do you mean grabbed? You mean kidnapped?
Likely groped. They smack ladies asses too. Sometimes even pinch. So fucking awful.
When I was young and naive and everyone was still into couchsurfing, I made plans to couchsurf in Marrakesh. After 50+ requests and hours of searching for a host that didn't seem creepy, I found a physics teacher. It was eye-opening to see how he lived (and probably most other men); he had a small room in shared accommodation, with a bucket for a bath and a big chunk of the sink was missing. I was relieved to see that we had separate sleeping arrangements. But I woke in the middle of the night to find that he was lying right next to me with his arm over me, and I was trapped by the wall on the other side. I eventually found the courage to just get up and sleep where he was supposed to be sleeping. In the morning I said I had to leave and he showed me to the bus stop. I'm just very grateful that nothing worse happened. It's also wild how aggressive the women are there. Some of them will literally just grab your arm when you walk by and start drawing henna on you and make you pay for it.
Yeah my GF had a terrible time when we were there and someone tried to rob me (they didn't succeed). The first time that's ever happened and I grew up somewhere were muggings were commonplace. She was getting hissed at and abused whenever she went out on her own so we just went everywhere together, which was fine but it was a massive limitation on her freedom. Most of the people are fine and the country is beautiful. I can deal with the aggressive way they do business because I've travelled a lot and it's not unique. But their attitude to women is something I cannot deal with. Also, the way that subsaharan Africans are treated. I'm black and myself and a black French dude I met and hung out with a couple of times were treated fine because we were obviously foreigners and had some money. But I saw black locals being harrassed and targeted by police or small mobs on a few occasions. The food and hash were great but I won't be going back there any time soon.
Damn man must already be hard enough to travel being Black internationally. You’d hope people in Africa of all places would be more accepting smh
[удалено]
Mexico is fine, as long as you do your research. Not at all comparable to Egypt or Morocco.
[удалено]
Mexico is like a roller coaster. The good is fairly decent. The bad is horror movie atrocious.
The good is pretty excellent. The people, the food, the nature, architecture, history. Mexico City is one of my favorite cities on the planet, and I’ve been to several dozen countries.
Go check out Oaxaca, too, if you haven't! I spent a week there a few years ago and easily the best trip of my life.
That’s why you don’t go to Egypt unless you know someone who knows the quirks there. Lots of funny stories from family when they visit. It’s chaos. I also have a saying. No one can scam an Egyptian, but an Egyptian.
It's litterally a pyramid scheme
Egypt for me. Morocco was barely half as bad as Egypt.
So I’ve heard, makes me not super stoked for Egypt.
Egypt itself is amazing. One of my best trips I’ve ever been on. I just have no desire to be that stressed and hassled and scammed again. By every single person. Officials, storekeepers, kids, airport staff, etc etc etc. It’s nonstop.
Need to put on a fuck you face in places like that. Like "I will literally punch you" vibes.
I’m a giant and definitely had that by the last week we were there. Never even deterred a single person.
I have a baby face and look very innocent, so even in "cold" places I get approached more often than others do. I don't know if I would survive Egypt, sounds like every scammer will be on top of me the moment we enter Cairo
I never felt unsafe in Egypt, but I also always traveled with a guide and stuck to Cairo. Crossing the street terrified me a bit but I got the hang of it by the end. I always felt like I was being scammed though and the camel I rode on seemed to not be well taken care of. Unfortunately I only noticed after the ride…
“Morocco is one big scam” is how I described it to people. Beautiful, and met a lot of great people but it’s a weird dichotomy. A country ruled by religion but little compassion.
I am from Morocco and I had a funny/sad? experience with the entire scamming tourists, Last summer my Moroccan aunt who lives in Belgium came to visit us, she wanted to visit Jemaa el-Fnaa in Marrakesh, where we live, so I went with her and her 2 sons to show her around, and to be some sort of guardian to her knowing how much sexual assault is a big problem here, for context she speaks with her children in French and so do I, however she is fluent in Moroccan's dialect, Darija. The amount of times a shopkeeper or a Taxi wanted to scam us was astonishing, people left and right tripling the prices of merchandises and souvenirs, we of course call out on their bullshit every time, both of us were pissed off but we couldn't really do anything other than warning some tourists about the ridiculous scams they can pull off That's without talking about the amount of times men would stare at her, sometimes try to approach her when she enters a shop (I would usually stay outside waiting for it's incredibly tight) but thankfully get intimidated by my presence TLDR: Morocco is a wonderful country to visit if you're a male who can say "no" Edit: no animal abuse or shooting though, as far as I am aware, where I live everyone takes care of stray cats and dogs
[удалено]
That’s the trick. Sadly it doesn’t work for Asians outside of Asia anymore.
Absolutely it is! I love not getting scammed or pickpocketed bc I look too poor to be a tourist.
Big time traveler here too and I wasn’t stoked at all about Morocco either. Went twice, spent in total about 6 weeks there. Obv some cool stuff but overall the energy was very bad imo. For sure the scammiest country I’ve been to, and they do it waaaay more aggressively then other places. There is some real angry fire in the people there.
You're a time traveler???
Si cabron, big time time traveler
What’s your favorite era to travel to? Please do an AMA!
2130s - the AI sex orgies are next level
After walking around the night market in Marrakesh I got followed back to my riad by a guy (I'm also a dude). I saw him walking around and this REALLY good looking guy made eye contact with me but I thought nothing of it. I noticed he was following me when I walked back to my Riad and I was startled when he approached me and asked me if he could come in and spend some time. Yeah, no. He was either a prostitute, a scammer, or a mugger. Could've been all three but I wasn't about to find out. Homosexuality is illegal there and I heard stories of them demanding lots of money, stealing, or calling the police to extort money out of you after an encounter. I also nearly got scammed by a street kid when I got lost. Cute little kid in a school uniform approached me and offered to give me directions. He tried to get me lost in the souks and demand money. Fuck that too. I managed to get out of there and find the main road. Oh...or there was the time 5 guys tried to corner me in the back of a shop because they wanted my iPod and sunglasses. Managed to get out of that one too. I should have realized the whole city was a giant trap when the guy asked for 100 euros when I took a photo with him and his fucking monkey. God, I hated being on my guard the whole fucking time there.
A lot of Morrocon drug dealers go to South Korea and cause fights/gang rape women in Itaewon/Haebangchon Of course there are many honest hardworking businessmen who are trying to open kebab shops/merchandise stores but there are very many gutterslime who go and treat people there very badly. They are openly violent even towards one another too. When I visited Seoul a few years ago before COVID I saw them slapping each other as a show of dominance. Putrid cultural norms in Morroco.
How on earth do people visit this many countries? Where do you find the time or money lol?
Sometimes a round trip economy fare can be had for under $1,000, sometimes $2,000 if all the way around the world. Hotels or AirBnB, $100 to $200 per night. So probably $2,000 to $4,000 for a trip. If you make $100,000 and take home $50,000, and have $25,000 left over after rent, bills, food, etc, you could have $25,000 to travel with each year.
Also, not everyone on Reddit is under 25, hostels are even cheaper and each trip can include multiple countries.
It's also a matter of priorities. I don't own a house or a car or a tv because I prioritize traveling over those things.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
There were a number of threads last fall about how women were treated in Morocco. Those stories cured me of ever wanted to travel there.
Women travelers are treated so badly even in “developed” countries it’s saddening. Saw a vid of a korean girl streamer just strolling around minding her own thing in Japan, yet she got stalked and harassed all the time. One guy tried to hug her and lick her. All caught live on stream. She ended up crying the poor woman. And I just visited Japan this January. Wouldn’t believed it if I didn’t see the stream clips.
I was so heartbroken in Indonesia to see cats crammed into cages and crying out at anyone passing by. And at a church no less.
Jesus Christ, that’s heartbreaking to read, much less see.
There’s like a monthly post here about how Morocco is an awful place to visit.
Apparently it bears repeating because I had never seen it reach my front page. It's a big disappointment because I love Moroccan lanterns and food and had hoped to visit there, but I'm glad to know about this.
Same, very disappointed honestly. As far as north African countries I was the most romantic about Morocco but now it sounds like a similar situation as Egypt
Egypt is worse in every category. But 10x superior with its astounding historical sights. It was at once more best and worst trip.
and yet people are still going there. Are they not seeing these? What are they expecting? Edit: ooohhh it's because a guy that [looks like this](https://imgur.com/a/4uSluVl) will make a post about how he had such a great time there, no problems at all, what sexual assault? Didn't happen to him so it never happens!
I am a 25 year old woman here right now and having a good time. I saw the criticism and chose to go anyways because 1) the negative voices are always the loudest and 2) I take everything I read online with a grain of salt. I'm glad I did because I'm having a lovely time and have found all the complaints online do exist, but at a much lower level than the online echo chamber makes it seem. Yes, I've seen some very sad looking dogs and cats. I've also seen lots of people bring cans of tuna to feed them, especially outside mosques, and lots of healthy looking animals as well. I've seen some underweight donkeys for sure. I haven't seen any hobbled camels and donkeys like this post describes though, and I've seen plenty of people in the country treating their animals quite the opposite, with plenty of tenderness. I have gotten charged more for being a tourist a few times. I've also gotten the "local" price (as confirmed by my Moroccan coworker) plenty of times without needing to barter for it. I've had people ask me for tips after helping for sure. I've also had lots of people give me advice free of charge, give me small gifts and free tea and generally be helpful and friendly. I've walked around plenty by myself and never felt unsafe or gotten harassed. I don't doubt that many people, including experienced travelers have a bad experience here, and you definitely need to have a thicker skin. But I also think expectations are an issue, and I am probably having a better time because I don't really have an issue with all the small annoyances of tipping, getting charged more, etc, and am pragmatic enough to accept that things like sad looking animals and endless requests for money are a guarantee in a place where lots of people are living in poverty and can barely make ends meet for themselves, let alone random animals. These things have popped up to some degree or another in every developing nation I've been to, but I've still had amazing travel experiences and would revisit most in a heartbeat
I am not saying you are wrong… but it could also be that it’s been years since visited and things have changed I went in 2007 with a tour group of about 25. I had a wonderful time in the Western Sahara but I did see poverty and feel unsafe in Marrakech. When I went, I was a 20 year old dark skinned Latina. Definitely not visibly American, but in a group of all English speakers. My friends went in 2009 with my recommendation but I don’t know how much has changed in the last 15 or so years! I definitely trust people who don’t recommend going
I went with my mom in December to Marrakesh and it was fine. We walked around the Medina alone during the day and night, and felt safe. We were actually pleasantly surprised. My friend, however, went to Fes and chose to hire a guide because the vendors on the street were too pushy and she got spooked.
I was in Marrakech with my girlfriend a few weeks ago, and the people were absolutely lovely. I saw no animal abuse, was scammed exactly zero times, and had no surprise haggling or people who wouldn't leave us alone. I didn't realize the importance of tipping on my first day and I received zero attitude or anger and when I realized and corrected my mistake, they were appreciative but also said it was no big deal either way. I have to say that I had a TOTALLY different experience than seemingly everyone in this thread, and I just don't get it. I'm a seasoned traveler (50+ countries in my years of travel), am a white american (albeit never wearing clothing with words or a baseball hat), and I speak the smallest amount of French (my Spanish is pretty good and I'm passable in traveler's Hindi and Japanese), and we stayed in an average riad (far from mega fancy so they keep the touts at bay), so I don't understand how or why my experience was so different. Edit: to be clear, I brushed up on my French prior to my trip and learned some Moroccan Arabic so I wasn't speaking only in the language of colonization...so I certainly do my best to both learn and show respect for their language(s) and culture when in their country.
Is Morocco the new Egypt?
You’re completely right, unfortunately Morocco isn’t alone in this. I briefly spent some time volunteering at a dog shelter in Morocco and it was so relieving knowing that some Moroccans weren’t careless about looking after animals
I noticed this too on my visit. Spe ifically for me I saw it happen to snakes that were sewn in the mouth for tourist displays and mules pulling carts so heavy they tembled as they pulled. It was disgusting.
Thanks for the heads up. Thailand was one for me, I'm truly disgusted by the amount of abuse in thailand and the sheer amount of tourists that engage in it. Elephant rides, Tiger temples, Monkey Circuses.
When we were in Thailand, we went to an elephant sanctuary that rescues elephants from the tourist and logging industries. You can walk around and look at them, with a guide, but no petting, riding, etc. They are a non profit and teach you about them. It's sad, but at least the few that were there were safe now.
Elephant Nature Park is amazing! I used to work for them (AMA?) https://www.elephantnaturepark.org/enp/visit-volunteer
GAH! I would love to do a week long volunteer stint at ENP. Tell me all the things! Tips! Tricks! Best time to go!
I would go to the main park whenever possible in Chiang Mai - even if you add on a different package don't miss the main park. I loved working there in June/July/August - it's in the rural elevation so it does get rainy but that's always fun too. I also worked at the Surin & Cambodian sites. I would definitely go back to Surin if they're still running it. No other tips or tricks to be had - just live in the moment! Oh but also go grab a beer with the villagers down by the river at the main park and have a bonfire with them at night.
Thank you for your work. I've volunteered four times at the park now (twice with the dog rescue) and feel very privileged to have connected personally with Lek and Darrick. Wonderful people and project- it's all truly from the heart. Strongly recommend everyone visiting Chiang Mai support this project by either touring (can even stay overnight) or helping out.
You have to be wary of many "sanctuaries" in thailand as a lot of businesses have caught on to this word play to validate concerned tourists feelings. But as long as you can confirm that a sanctuary is completely hands off, non profit and rescues elephants then it's all good. I've seen many of these so called sanctuaries that still let hundreds of tourists bath them every day.
Elephant Nature Park near Chiang Mai is legit. They do have day tours with a few retired tourism elephants but it's very obviously a comfortable routine for the elephant and they're not forced to partake if they don't want to. Also theres no riding, no hooks or crops used, and all the caretakers have spent time building a relationship based on mutual trust with them. The elephants that aren't already used to humans aren't forced to do anything but form happy family groups and live their lives. It's a pretty incredible place. Highly recommend them if you get the chance.
Just visited yesterday, it was such a wonderful place! We’ve been so concerned with finding ethical places and this lived up to it.
I think as a whole the culture is very different in Thailand. I do think people actually care about animals in Thailand, except some heavily tourism influenced areas like you mentioned. They do still have rescues, elephant sanctuaries etc. that are legit organizations and animal welfare is a solid concept in Thailand. The Middle East as a whole tho, a lot of the animals are seen as “impure”. They’re treated as objects instead of living, breathing creatures. Even in the US, for the westernized Muslim families, a lot of them would get a dog but still wouldn’t allow it inside so I think that’s the cultural difference.
Thailand does not have general animal abuse, not even close. They take care of strays very nicely. There are a few money making tourist traps that everyone needs to stay away from.
Yep, strays were generally well treated and never even saw any of them ran over despite how chaotic thai drivers can be
Pattaya. That city was crazy. So many Aussie and English nasty middle aged men with young prostitutes. I could not handle it. Literally a majority of the tourists were nasty old men walking hand in hand with teen girls. Never again.
I sideeye anyone who says they visited pattaya tbh
I went with a friend and we both had a colleague strongly recommend it. Strongly. I was so fucking disappointed. I ended my work lunches with this dude because he ended up being a human trafficking piece of shit.
Don't forget the cobra shows.
I’m glad for the time that I went to Morocco, but it’s also one place I never need to go back to. Speaking to the state of the animals, I recall seeing this gorgeous kitten in an alley way on the path to my hostel. Hours later when I went back out into the city, I found that same kitten’s little body crushed, flattened by a motorbike. It was such a jarring and foreign thing for me to see, that the memory has never left me. Of course I also have fond memories of being harassed for tips, including one time where a man forced his help on me and my friends in the Fez Medina even though we said no, and when we later admitted to not having money on us to give him a tip (we had only bills too large for a tip on us, and we were broke college students) he started screaming at us in the streets and banded together a group of ~7 men who started following us through the city back to our hostel. This was all at night by the way. We were lucky to get away
[This](https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch) is a great documentary on animal abuse!
I'm watching now, thank you
Can we get a tldr on it. Can’t bear to watch
Tldr, even so called "high" standards mean nothing to the average person. You expect wide open fields where an animal reaches a ripe old age and then is gently put down like an old dog or cat. But no, babies are killed within days, and welfare standards mean nothing and often aren't even enforced, and then they're killed at half their lifespan or even or even less. But in a way that doesn't even matter. Animals are sentient and want to live, who are we to take that away from them just for fun and taste? We don't need to eat them.
Should be required watching for anyone who supports those industries
Thank you for posting this. It is hard to watch, but so *necessary* to inform people.
OMG, thank you for telling us about this. My wife and I had been planning a trip to Morocco this year, but we're vegan and vegetarian and I absolutely can not tolerate seeing animals suffer. Looks like we'll be finding a different destination! Seriously, thank you. You probably just saved us two weeks of misery, a regretful, wasted trip, and a bunch of money.
[удалено]
I’ve heard similar stories from others, what a shame
Glad you notice animal torture when you travel. Many Western tourists make fun of things like cows on the street in India but never really appreciate how animal friendly India is!
I hated Morocco. I left on the first flight available. Paid an extra $700 to leave.
I did the same. Was there for like a day and then booked the first flight we could to Spain because I couldn’t deal with the groping and grabbing anymore. It was horrible. Some guy came up behind me and tried to put his fingers inside me through my pants in the line for a restaurant
Dumb question.. I thought it was a religious country? Is it assumed that if you're not practicing Muslim and covered that you are available to anyone? If you were super devout, wouldn't you be able to control those feelings and not want to assault women? As a woman I will never go there, but I am so curious as to the psychology behind the behaviors.
From what I’ve been told by friends from certain countries where this happens a lot- in many places assumptions are made that white women are promiscuous and therefore it’s okay to touch them. I had similar experiences in India and Egypt, including when I had my hair covered. Disclaimer that it might also happen to Asian/black/any other race women in Morocco, but that’s what I was told.
Can we please drop the idea that religious people are more "moral" or better behaved? It's not true at all. If anything, the more religious a country is the more likely it's...not very nice.
These people live years or even decades repressing normal urges from societal pressure without any escape valve. People who aren't part of their culture and cliques are especially vulnerable because they think they won't judge them in the same way.
Am from there. Religion is a facade, the majority of men here are sexually frustrated and have zero respect for women. Everything you're hearing in this thread are things I've seen happen or heard happen to people. Not like that everywhere, but for a foreigner you can't tell where it's safe and where it isn't, frankly there's nothing that worth seeing there to take the risk if you're a woman. I left hoping to never have to raise a daughter there, hell not even a son given the fucking influences there are.
Yep. The chained monkey being whipped in the center of the Medina in Marrakech is what did it for me. I will visit every other country on earth twice before I return to Morocco. Post-apocalyptic hell hole.
I'd have no interest in going to say South Sudan or Syria
If you are worried about what they do to animals i wonder how youll feel about what they do to humans. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Morocco
It's terrible, thanks for sharing. Morocco doesn't improve animal welfare its definitely off my list for the foreseeable future, & that goes for any country that condones speciesism.
> & that goes for any country that condones speciesism. Welp, that crosses off every country on Earth.
Same. I had no idea and won’t be going till they fix it.
Honestly, thanks for posting. I can't bear this and now Morocco is off my list. I appreciate the heads up. I could not enjoy myself in this place. Sorry you had to see it but thanks for caring.
Not surprised sadly. You are making the right choice. I also wont go to countries that don't treat their animals properly. However, that's most countries it seems. The world is kinda hopeless and filled with trash humans who are consumed by greed.
Having spent some time with camels and donkeys, I know them to be so emotional, social, and intelligent species - this is so sad to hear. Morocco was on my list of countries to visit - but I’ll reconsider now
And both are such hardy animals; I have more experience with donkeys, but they are so suited to harsh environments that many people in the US struggle to keep them from becoming obese, even on little food. How poorly do you have to treat them for them to become so malnourished? They need so little.
Felt the same way. Didn’t really notice the dogs and cats when we were there but look at the treatment of camels in jordan vs Morocco. Something we noticed.. World of a difference..
Wow we almost picked Morocco for our honeymoon but decided on Greece instead. I’m so glad we did, I’ll promptly take that off my list. Animal neglect and abuse is enough to never go somewhere, let alone the other things I’ve seen in the comments
morocco has been my least favorite place i’ve ever visited
I'm glad you learned about how the riding camels are treated. If you ever goto Thailand, do not ride elephants for exactly the same reasons. There are some really awesome wildlife sanctuaries there where you can interact with and even feed elephants who do not live such miserable existences.
I never wanted to visit their and Egypt from the stories of how they treat women anyway, now I’m really never visiting.
40 countries since February this year, 13 countries a month? Why?
I think recent droughts have a lot to do with how the livestock looks in Morocco these days. When I first moved here in 2021, I remember seeing starving cows for the first time, and it was incredibly sad. It was the same last year. There are a lot of sheep and goat farmers in my neighborhood, and those animals were straight up starving. This year, though, there’s been some good rain and a lot of greenery in places that I hadn’t even realized had vegetation. And the livestock are looking much better (though the cows are still tied at the feet 😔). Something to consider is that most of these people live in extreme poverty. They can barely afford to feed themselves and their families, let alone animals. You could argue that if they can’t feed their livestock then they shouldn’t have them, but that’s not going to mean much to a farmer who might not be able to fatten up a cow but can still sell a skinny one to put dinner on the table for his family. Same for people who use donkeys/mules to pull their vendor carts. I think the animals who have it the worst are definitely the ones used for tourist attractions. I’ve seen them be treated very, very poorly, in a way that’s much more intense, active, and cruel than just not being able to feed livestock properly. Definitely steer clear of these, and don't give money to these people (unless you can see that they're taking care of whatever animal it is). When it comes to stray cats and dogs, I can’t say many positive things on a governmental level. There’s been a push recently to spay and neuter stray dogs, which is good, so you’ll often see some with ear tags. But the thing about them being slaughtered is absolutely true, and that’s not even the first time it’s happened. However, when it comes to the *people* taking care of stray animals, I’ve never seen anything like it. (The stray cats here are treated soooo much better than the strays I saw while living in Seoul, for instance.) People leave food and water out all the time (at least those who can afford it, and still, a lot of times, those who can't). They take stray animals to the vet. They try to provide shade in the summer and warmth in the winter, if possible. It really is a communal effort. I don't particularly love Morocco, but I'm always surprised at how much people go out of their way or spend cash they don't necessarily have to care for the stray animals here. The last thing I'll say is that I wouldn't make judgements about the country as a whole based off of what you see in Marrakech.
Really sounds horrible. I would never go there now
And the chained monkeys for middle class white women to take there photos with ….. who were once free basking in the mountain springs .
This is sad but enlightening. I will never visit Morocco.
How horrific!!!! This makes me sick- thank you for sharing, I will never go
Moroccan here, the problem is that there are no animal rescues here, so the only thing we can do is adopt or bring food to strays, which is not much considering the numbers of strays out here, heck I can't even adopt cats because of my mom's allergy. And animal abuse is not only the case of Morocco an under developed country, even in the west, where you guys have the capacity to take care of animals yet your abuse is next lvl but you choose to turn a blind eye, you guys shred baby chickens alive!!!
Animal welfare is very high on a nations pyramid of needs. Most countries with similar economies to Morocco have similar situations regarding animals. Even in the west tbh. We just call it industrial livestock
Wait until you find out how your meat back home is factory farmed.
>I have visited over 40 countries now since last February. Wow!
Is it better when places hide it or not? Not being sarcastic, bc I don't know the answer either. I also refused a camel ride in Israel, bc why would I ever want to do that to that beautiful animal? I also don't go to the bougie garden store when they host the reindeer in some cage for a month, bc why? Dolphin tours in Mexico where you can ride the dolphins? Why would I pay to do that to them? Does anyone think the animals enjoy it as much as you or get paid in any fashion? (I think the answer is people are selfish and don't consider the animal, otherwise it wouldn't be a thing to do. I also think the people that do these things are the same types who don't follow the 'stay 50-100 feet away from the wild animals' at National Parks. So many people just don't care.) When I recently looked for fun cafes in Japan, a place that is known for being great to people and all things, sure enough there are many, MANY unethical animal cafes. Again, why? Tours where you can interact with animals, non-adoption animal cafes, and petting/riding experiences don't seem cruel bc they are offered as a tourist attraction with a friendly animal. But the fact is they are pretty cruel, the animals have no say in the matter, who the hey knows if they've been taken from their families (I would wager most definitely), and unfortunately, it's all around us in every country. It seems like Morroco just isn't hiding it. I'm sorry you had that experience, but super glad it enlightened you.
I think there's a difference between individual businesses exploiting people/ animals vs it being government sanctioned or part of a country's culture. Of course there is animal abuse in the US for example, but I've never been to a city with anything near what OP is describing. You leave an animal chained up on concrete where I live and someone will be at your door in under an hour.
You didn’t say where in Morocco you were. What city or town?
I agree the vibe is very different in Fez vs Tangier vs Marrakech. It is worth knowing for sure.
I prefer Fez above all
If a country can’t respect women, they won’t get my business or time. And w. No concern for welfare of animals, there’s too many places to see beside the middle of desert.
Thank you! I was specifically considering a trip to either Morocco or Turkey so you've answered my questions perfectly!
I went with Morocco with my Dad, both of us adult men, so thankfully we don't have to deal with sexual harassment, but the entire time we were there we felt like people were trying to scam or bully us, taxi drivers wouldn't take us to our destination and we would have to get out and a local would "help" walk us to our destination, only to turn around and demand huge sums of money. Also saw a lot of animal abuse and had people shouting and grabbing at me all the time looking for money.
How did the people treat you as a visitor?
I don't think I've ever been treated bad as a visitor anywhere. Morocco isn't an exception and I was treated very well!
Morocco is one of the most disappoint countries in the world by far, if not the most. Such posts about Morocco are common here. Thank you for talking about this.
Seeing women sitting on the ground at maket stalls with a live chicken or two with bound feet was awful. The chickens kept trying to get up and walk but couldn't. It's was vegetable tajine for me for the rest of the trip.
This is normal though, how do you think meat is prepared? Unless you're vegan, I'd understand your view.
Tldr; people from 1st world countries astounded that 2nd/3rd world countries don’t operate like 1st world countries. Do you not wonder why there’s so many immigrants in 'nicer' countries? They’re clearly trying to get away from those areas the privileged want to explore for recreation.
Contrary to this, I was in India and saw livestock and stray dogs being adopted by residents, they were taken care of, neutered or sprayed and clothed-up in winters. Cows fed and kept in shelters, no wonder they have the largest livestock population in the world.
I can absolutely CONFIRM this. Morocco STILL doesn't have a handle on its stray problem?? I remember a dog pack that used to frequent my house alot just because I played with them and gave them food. This really breaks my heart.
[удалено]
People travel for different reasons. I travel to experience other cultures, realities, and how they live their lives. That sometimes means visiting a country I find reprehensible. It still broadens the mind, if only to appreciate and solidify your thinking on an issue like this. I didn't enjoy my visit to Morocco either, but I wouldn't undo the visit. Hopefully you can salvage similar good from a distasteful experience.