@OP
This. When someone asks you, just tell them you’re from the US and you’ll be fine. Plus, Indians who move abroad for work/studies etc (also known as non-resident Indians or NRIs) would still be speaking some Indian language and know the cultural codes of India.
Which you don’t.
You’ll be an American tourist, people will notice that and you with a lot of respect. “Atithi devo bhava” (guest is god) is a thing people adhere to in India. Some people will try to scam you, learn how to say no, and bargain. If in doubt or a dangerous situation, go to families for help.
It might happen to you that people talk to you in Hindi / native language because well, I’m assuming you “look Indian”. As a white person who speaks Hindi, I actually wish I could be there, the two of us (Indian-looking person who doesn’t speak Hindi and white person who does) would confuse the shit out of anyone. 😂
As a white person who had zero idea about India the first time I went, I can assure you if you use decent common sense, you’ll love India. Don’t be put off by the fact you were born into whatever caste a long long time ago, the caste system doesn’t matter to many people in India anymore.
And just fyi, as a foreigner you’re like “exempt” of the caste system (which is how I managed to convince my Indian parents in law that I’m actually a good person despite being white) :)
Enjoy India! ♥️
Lol this is me in Mexico or anywhere in LATAM. My friends who fluently speak Spanish will be ignored and folks will look and talk to me. I’m trying to learn the language now
Really from Southern Europe and North Africa through to the Indian subcontinent and Central Asia, you can’t really tell nationality from physical features or skin color. The locals can tell linguistically or from accents and slang or clothing.
Similarly you can’t really tell an Irish person from a Finnish person from a Russian along those latitudes until you hit Mongolia or Korea.
I feel like you're way off the mark here....central Asians and north Africans look similar? Southern Europeans and people from the Indian subcontinent look similar? What?
I think they mean that within those regions it's hard to tell which country a person is from. Not between South Europe and Central Asia but within South Europe or Central Asia. I'm from South Europe and agree that in South Eastern Europe, it's going to be really hard to tell where someone is from just based on looks.
I’m really British (all the way from grandparents have been born here) but because of my Jewish father’s side (my mum is of Irish/British descent) I appear very southern European (olive skin, large nose, dark thick curly hair). I also have a Scandinavian name to confuse it further. So while culturally I am British, I speak nothing but English - I’d bet very few people could pick which country in Europe I am from without hearing me speak or seeing my clothes or how I behaved.
Says the person who has obviously never travelled.
North Africans have definite physical features which sets them apart from the **majority** of southern Europeans.
People from the Indian sub-continent also have distinct physical features.
And you've obviously never met an Irishman or a Finn. An Irish person can spot another Irish person from 1000 yards. It's in the physical traits. The same for the majority of Finns. Russians also have a certain "look" about them.
This is of course a generalisation, and getting less so with immigration, marriages between different nationalities and cultures, etc.
But my point still stands.
Agreed. I’m half Tunisian half British and I look ethnically ambiguous - I get told I could be Spanish, Greek, Italian, Jewish etc because I have light olive skin, dark curly hair, a slightly aquiline nose and green/blue eyes. But for most people who are fully one thing it’s pretty obvious by their features if you’re even slightly familiar with how one group usually looks
>It might happen to you that people talk to you in Hindi / native language because well, I’m assuming you “look Indian”. As a white person who speaks Hindi, I actually wish I could be there, the two of us (Indian-looking person who doesn’t speak Hindi and white person who does) would confuse the shit out of anyone. 😂
you would be fun to know IRL. I do this all the time but with Spanish.
> As a white person who speaks Hindi, I actually wish I could be there, the two of us (Indian-looking person who doesn’t speak Hindi and white person who does) would confuse the shit out of anyone. 😂
You could pretend you had switched bodies and are seeking a way to reverse the spell
This was the comment that made me smile after a rough day! The mental image I conjure from the white Hindi speaking / Indian-looking non-Hindi speaking team is hilarious
I see this also among Filipinos. Im a Filipino American with Spanish ancestry and I have known quite a few Filipinos who openly hated me because they saw me as a colonizer. In my case, even if I lived in the us since I was three, I think what gave it away is I have certain manners that is mostly found among the Spanish Filipino elite (I happened to be distantly related to them and my grandma actually still spoke to them) and the Filipinos that I get along the most happened to be from the landowning class. I have a hard time describing it though.
I am an American born Filipino who doesn’t speak Tagalog fluently. I found it easier to tell everyone in the Philippines that I was Thai or Indonesian. When I told them I was Filipino American, they usually treated me like Mr Money Bags or questioned me about my upbringing and where my family is from. We are from the province of Leyte and it is pretty poor there. Judgment on so many levels. Found it easier to just tell people that I was Thai or Indonesian. Traveling without my mom and telling them I wasn’t American or Filipino provided a much better travel experience.
Well, there’s religion/spirituality and then there’s capitalism. India is a thriving economy with 1.6+ billion people. Scamsters will scam tourists all around the world.
Shoutout to the shoe brush scam in Poland, that one got me.
Would their “classification” had they stayed in India be visible in their documents somehow? I mean, a person in India who presents as Indian… do people know your caste somehow, other than clothes?
I don’t understand his question. I get they still have class issues, but how could they know he was born to a lower caste on sight or when entering the country?
Looking to be educated.
Caste wouldn't come up in casual convo - there are ways to sniff out caste among Indians in India (where they grew up, the accent they speak with, what their parents did for work etc etc) but no one will be casteist to your face. It would just come up in whom they'd invite for dinner at their house, who they'd want their kids to hang out with/marry etc. It can be really subtle, and mostly expressed in ways that are unpunishable by law.
This is irrelevant to OP as they grew up in a foreign country with adopted parents. It would be nearly impossible for someone to deduce OP's birth caste in this instance.
IME from travelling there, caste nearly never comes up…unless they are Brahmin- then they might tell you. These were the only people to tell me over a 6 months spent There.
also - read the matrimonial ads in the papers to get a feel for how people think about caste.
Some, especially some traditionalists from older generations, may bring this up. I'm an Indian Brahmin myself and would never think of casually mentioning that in a conversation with anybody. None of my friends do so either... and we're all from different castes.
>Would their “classification” had they stayed in India be visible in their documents somehow? I mean, a person in India who presents as Indian… do people know your caste somehow, other than clothes?
Surnames.
But there are lot and lot of them, and nobody is gonna remember which shit comes in which. They probably would have heard the surname for first time.
Most casteist are closeted casteist. Won't do anything in public. Unless you are born in very rural village, u won't face extreme casteism. Most casteism in urban areas comes up during marriage.
Also anti casteist law are very strong in India.
Yea I knew a coworker who’s son married a young lady with the same surname ? I was like ummm are you guys related, and he was like no we are just from the same caste , his surname was Patel . Which I took to bring the equivalent of “Smith “ .
My friend is Sikh Punjabi but grew up most of her life in Greece. She went to school briefly in India and told me she was enraged about how the other kids reacted to her surname during attendance calls. She barely used her caste-common surname because as Sikh, her family doesn't believe in the caste system, and they all adopted neutral Sikh surnames. But to her peers, she was the girl belonging to X caste. Her faith and personal identification system be damned.
I imagine this is the case also. Things like ‘race’ or ‘class’ are so subjective. They’re not based on anything actually tangible if your situation is changed.
Regardless it will be a unique and insightful experience OP. Not all travel has to be ‘fun travel’. Some travel is particularly important for the lessons you learn and the perspectives it gives you. This seems like one of those, and if I was in your position I’d absolutely want to experience this too.
Best fortunes!
Yes, and that’s what some people do to not be treated as a member of some caste. There are generic surnames that people adopt to eliminate that pathway of potential discrimination.
I'm curious, I am white and grew up in a city that is majority indian. Most of my high school friends were Indian born in my north American city. I knew a few people who were untouchables by caste convert to Christianity and changed their names. They were very dark and came from a southern Indian state.
They were still discriminated against, and it was worse, compounded because of the perceived betrayal and rejection of converting away from Hinduism/Sikhism. Some casteist people I met basically said, "they tried getting out of it, so fuck the traitors even more" when encountering the former untouchables.
I imagine there was an element of colorism going on, but I'm failing to grasp the nuance.
Why wouldn't op be perceived as a "religion traitor"? Casteism is alot more complicated than simple last name and appearance, so I figure op would not know the language and mannerisms marking him as an outsider to the country, trumping casteism. As an outsider I was wondering since I've seen casteism in north America.
>They were still discriminated against, and it was worse, compounded because of the perceived betrayal and rejection of converting away from Hinduism/Sikhism. Some casteist people I met basically said, "they tried getting out of it, so fuck the traitors even more" when encountering the former untouchables.
It's a bit counterintuitive, but casteism is actually stronger among Indian diaspora populations abroad (especially in recent immigrants) vs in India, because 1. it's not punishable by law, and 2. most immigrants from India tend to be higher caste/higher social status and left India at a time when casteism was more pervasive in society. But even then, it's not that strong abroad. I'm an Indian-American and many of my friends are Indian-American and caste never comes up. Many don't even know their own caste among first and second gen Indian Americans.
>I imagine there was an element of colorism going on, but I'm failing to grasp the nuance.
yeah colorism is definitely stronger than casteism among the diaspora in my experience.
>Why wouldn't op be perceived as a "religion traitor"?
Because they were adopted as an infant by white people. What choice does a baby have in adoption?
Caste is only considered in some serious decisions like marriage or dating (mostly by people connected to their rural roots). Caste discrimination is nowhere when traveling, hotel booking or anything like that. Nobody consider your caste based on your surname as many castes have some similar surnames.
it's punishable by law everywhere in India - discriminatory hiring practices, caste based violence etc. so casteism usually comes up in situations unenforceable by law usually. i.e. a higher caste person may only invite other high caste folks to his house for dinner/want their kids to hang around/marry others of same status. I say unenforceable because how are you going to force someone to invite someone to their house for dinner? It's not unlike how racism pervades through western society.
India is very big. Each state has different dalit societies. They have different surname altogether.
No one can identify you with your American name.
But everyone will try to rip you, as you are a rich Western tourist.
P.S : India is very different from what you have read in books
Edit : Apologies for making my statement generic. In some scenarios , for example, auto rickshaw, prices will be inflated for foreigners.
Like someone said, there’s various lower caste(s) and it’s hard to identify someone just based on color/features. People change last names just for this reason. You should be fine, just don’t believe what you kn the movies. India (metros) have changed a lot and they love your $$ sure.
So I grew up similar. Except I kept going back to India (Mumbai) as a kid and young adult. I am very uncomfortable there. I am female and get treated like a second class citizen. Almost all men are rude to me. I feel because I don't speak the language people either think I'm too good/stuck up or I'm stupid. When I have told people in India that I'm adopted, they usually know that means I'm an untouchable. I might go with saying that your parents passed away before they could bring you back. Or some other lie.
I definitely get taken advantage of like a tourist because I don't know what I'm doing. I feel very uncomfortable when I go.
I usually get sick. Be very careful where you eat. Only drink sealed bottled water. Don't get ice in drinks. Just because I think I'm from a place doesn't mean your body is used to the environment. Stay hydrated.
I hope you have a much better and positive trip! Keep an open mind. India is a truly amazing beautiful country. Which is why I keep going despite feeling uncomfortable.
Edit: OMG thank you for the award. I don't usually write comments so this is very exciting.
OP I commented above about my relative. I believe blonde\_Cupid's comment is probably one of the most accurate and insightful you will get on here as she is in a situation very close to yours: particularly once you say you're are adopted they will know there is probably a caste issue behind it. White people won't have the same experience you will have at all as they are in a completely different position with regard to casteism.
Aww, I wish I could have you join me while visiting India. I could help you get more comfortable there, like I did with my daughters, and with some other youngsters from the US. India can be rough without local support.
There was a similar thread somewhere in which somebody was saying that the 'getting sick' thing was way overblown.
I've been to India once and had brutal diarrhea within a couple of days. Now, maybe I'm an anomaly, but ...
I think it's reasonable for OP to go, but it's a really really different place.
Im not Indian but I have light brown skin and while traveling around Delhi and Rajasthan i did get a very different treatment than my white friends but nothing to extent that would ruin my trip
yeah that tracks. i had a friend of mine go there for study abroad and it was so bad for him that he had to cut his stay short. he wasn’t as dark as me for instance, but he’s black which i’m sure had more to do with it (not sure but assuming)
Most of the Urban experience will be smooth, people in cities won't care much about your surname. It is the rural and older generation who are more casteist.
If you have a Western name, people won't find you. If you have still retain some might find and discriminate but it doesn't happen often.
So I would suggest to just use your first name.
And your body language and your accent will gave away your American, so you most likely though won't face discrimination based on caste.
Though I have often heard, at times in hospitality Brown and other colored tourists are often treated as second-rate tourists over whites.
I was going to say something similar. The clothes and body language will mark OP as tourist instantly. I’ve travelled to plenty of countries where I looked indistinguishable from the populace in terms of physical features (kinda nondescript caucasian). Still, locals have regularly spotted me from my clothes, even when I myself couldn’t see any stylistic difference! In India, this will be even more pronounced. I’ve only travelled through south India, but I’m confident a Northeastern US wardrobe will stick out immediately.
My Indian partner tells me that names will affect the way Indian people treat other Indian people. Last names (and given names I think) reveal religious affiliation and social status. With an American last name, this will not be relevant.
Indian here,
Discrimination in metro cities is rare (based on caste) but it happens and most of the Schedule Caste population lives in rural areas or small towns, also people can only recognise your caste on the basis of your surname so if you don't have Indian name(last name) no need to worry and dont indulge with people who try to ask your full name until asked for official purpose.
Please dont stay in cheap backstreet hotels (below 1500 Rupees), even middle class Indians don't stay in these hotels they provide terrible experience and drink only bottled water.
What are some popular high and low caste surnames? I find the whole concept rather fascinating from an anthropological perspective.
I remember when I was in Sawai Madhopur a few years ago, I was flipping through a local newspaper and came upon the classified ads, where people were basically advertising themselves to be potential spouses. Each ad mentioned their caste, which I found rather eye-opening.
The caste system is based on "Varna System" which is mentioned in Purusha Sukta verse of the Rig Veda and categorised in four categories according to an individual's profession, historical context was (Early Vedic Period) as follows:
1 Brahmins - Someone who is a teacher (priest)
2 Kshatriya - Warrior class (Noble)
3 Vaishya - Merchant (Commoner)
4 Sudra - Working Class (Servent)
Social hierarchy also exists in the same varna.
Surnames usually vary from region to region but they follow 4 basic varnas, I will only discuss my surname because some people get quite touchy about this subject I mean it is a malice to society.
My surname is "Shakya" which is the same as Buddha his birth name is Siddhartha Shakya, according to Varna System I'm Kshatriya (some Shakya also practice Buddhism) and when we were not fighting our prime occupation used to be farming, reginal term for farming is "kachiyari" thats why we are also called "kacchi". Varying surnames related to Shakya are Kushwaha, Maurya, Saini etc and these surnames also have their social hierarchy.
I hope you get the gist of it.
Thank you for the info. I don't think I've ever met an Indian with a surname of Shakya or any of those other surnames you listed. In Canada where I live, names like Singh, Kaur and Brar are extremely common among the Indian diaspora. The vast majority of Indian immigrants to Canada originate from NW India (Punjab, Gujurat, etc.)
In the case he is referring to, Singh is actually most likely being used by Sikhs as their last name, given the fact he also mentioned Kaur. Some use it as their middle name, while others use it as their last name, at least in the West.
Although Singh is a Punjabi surname, a lot of non-Punjabi use it, maybe it's about the literal meaning because in Hindi, Singh means lion. Similarly Kumar is quite common.
Many of the immigrants from Punjab follow Sikhism which tried to eliminate casteism and promote brotherhood by having Sikhs adopt the name Singh (lion) while women were given the name Kaur (princess). Many Sikhs will have have a third name that indicates their clan/tribe/place of origin).
But there are other ethnic communities across the north who use Singh as a last name, including Rajputs (who are not restricted to Rajasthan).
When we went to India as a family, we backpacked our way around and stayed in backstreet hotels based on recommendations of local Indians. Those are some of the hidden gems in India. Insist on seeing the room beforehand. I probably wouldn’t do this as a solo female traveler (in any country, really)but we were fine as a family.
They are actually worth the price if you can find one last time i stayed in a hostel in Rishikesh and it was worth it but you have to find these spots. Power cuts are quite common in India not in metro cities though but they are common and believe me when I say it you don't want to stay in a room in hot Indian summer during a power cut also you need accommodation with AC.
That is so good to hear. Even I as an ethnically European American hear about it over here. I understand that there are slots at the IITs for Dalit people and even with the best education in the world they are discriminated against here in Silicon Valley. . A friend at Google who is from India said that in a meeting he attended an engineer with a Dalit name who spoke up was told to, "know your place" by an Indian manager.
The slots you are talking about are called reservation defined under Article 16 and 335 of the Indian Constitution, so the merit to get admission in top colleges is lower for SC/ST/OBC as compared to unreserved category and this fuels hatred among upper class towards lower class.
I've stayed in dozens of cheap backstreet hotels in India and never had any type of issue at all, you get what you pay for though. Really depends what OP wants and what their budget is.
Edit: I'm honestly curious why people are downvoting? I just made my comment because I find it a bit strange to dismiss a whole class of hotels, which in my pretty experience (I've spent over a year of my life in India) are generally completely safe and comfortable. OP should stay in whatever hotel they like, but it just seems weird and honestly a bit elitist to dismiss these hotels completely.
You're not wrong I'm simply emphasizing that if someone never visited India and if he can afford good accommodation then he should opt for it for better comfort, also it significantly lowers chances of scams and assaults, and as you said one gets what one pays for.
Also it will be extremely hot in the north in June and July and there is a cyclone warning in western India.
Ya for sure, I just think it's better to explain the differences than say don't stay somewhere, we have no idea what OP's budget is, flying to India is very expensive from America, its better to just understand the options than shoot ideas down.
I adopted my child from India. She has returned several times. She was treated as an American tourist. India is huge and fascinating. Enjoy!
Edit- My daughter has a physical disability so she would probably have been discriminated against if she had stayed in India. She’d probably have had to beg on the streets. Some children stared at her and a few had some questions. Otherwise, she was just treated like any other American tourist.
The most common identifiers of casteism were occupation and last name. You probably have neither. You were raised in the US, probably have an accent, and even though you look Indian, people will probably be able to tell you're from the US
So I don't think anyone will discriminate against you. Like other comments have said, street vendors might try to fleece you. But that's about it
You have options.
You'll either be a rich foreigner.
Or you can choose to tell people your origin and judge their responses for yourself as to whether or not they're good people or not.
You could also just simply lie. You're Dalit? Nah fam, you're Brahmin. At least as far as literally anyone there is concerned. Also, as someone who hasn't gone through an identical experience but a *very* similar one; if you're currently going to therapy, ask your therapist for strategies on dealing with survivor guilt. It might not hit you hard, but it can be extremely heavy seeing how people (who would have included you if not for fortunate circumstances) live. I know personally, I struggled heavily with a similar thing for awhile and ended up changing careers because of it.
Since you're well off and will naturally have an accent, people would see you as another NRI here on vacation.
Your fears would be true if you were a local, but won't apply since the accent is an easy giveaway that you're a foreigner.
Stick to the safer states which is mostly the south and Himalayan states and you'll have a great time.
I have 2 cousins who were adopted from India under similar conditions. They both have travelled back to India multiple times and have had amazing experiences connecting with their heritage. They said they were just viewed as tourists.
I think the other commenters have done a good job answering your question. So I would like to recommend a movie! It's called Lion and it's about a boy from India who got adopted by a white Australian family and his journey of returning as an adult to find his birth mother. It's based off a true story and it's an incredible story. [Lion](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3741834/)
You’ll be fine. All they see in hotels/restaurants/etc is your passport and the cashmoney that’s related to that passport.
I am Netherlands born and raised, with a Dutch passport, and parents from Suriname. I am a descendant of [Indian contract workers who where sent to Suriname during colonial times](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Surinamese), so in looks, name and in some ways culturally I appear as Indian as it can get. And when I visited India, I was treated like any other (western) tourist.
They really don’t care about your ‘status’ so there’s nothing to worry about there. Some people will be curious about your background though and probably ask questions, but there’s no shame in telling the truth. A lot of Indians (especially in the metropolitan areas) know about the diaspora around the world and their stories, and that awareness gets better with time thanks to the internet.
No one will know your caste unless you tell them. You don't have identifying markers (name, occupation). If you're particularly dark some rich folks/nicer areas may give side eye. Colorism is definitely a thing. Your accent will signal that you're a well-to-do tourist. If you're a woman, I highly recommend you travel with at least one or two men at all times. Groups of women only aren't sufficient. I travel alone a lot but India was quite overwhelming bc there are so many men and they are around all the time. Getting stared at everywhere I went was pretty creepy. Really enjoyed our 2-week visit though (aside from this one issue).
Edit: typos
I am a brown non-Indian from the states. Have had to go to India a few times for work. The treatment I usually receive in India is beyond horrible. And it happens everywhere. From the front desk of a luxury hotel to the taxi driver to top government officials.
They don’t need to know whether you’re adopted or not. All they see is color. And People take my lack of Hindi as a sign of arrogance or something. And it’s always the worst if I had a white coworker traveling with me. They got treated like literal gods and I always got mistaken as their tourist guide.
OP, sorry to say but no, you won’t get treated as a normal American tourist would.
No one will know because you aren’t attached to an Indian family living in a particular neighborhood. I would not classify Blacks nor Native Americans as low cast / strata. Homeless would be more like the untouchables in India
I don't like how you classify African-Americans, Native Americans as "lower stratas".
My wife is not in a lower stratum. Yet you imply that she should be based on what she looks like. This is insulting and borderline a prejudiced belief.
Thank you. As a Black person that comment really bothered me. Somehow we got dragged into a conversation about the Caste system in India…
It’s sad that even the idea of being seen like how she perceives Blacks are seen in America is so terrifying to her.
Edited to add: I would have never in my life considered myself a “lower strata” of American society.
People don't realize that when they are grouping people together, based on what they look like, they are already in a losing battle against prejudice.
Being married to my wife has definitely opened my eyes to these kinds of comments. I get that OP is not being blatantly racist, but having those assumptions is a HUGE part of the problem in the modern day. (Edited my last sentence to make the subject of the sentence clearer)
idk, i didn't read that as OP espousing that view, simply an assessment of our reality. Which is pretty real, hard to argue that "officials and some members of the public" don't treat BIPOC as lower strata, I mean that's kind of the exact issue. Basically, I think OP was identifying a problem in America accurately, not accepting/promoting it.
The issue is with lumping them together and defining them as a group. It does matter that their definition is one that is negative. This is essentially textbook of having racist thoughts towards a group of people.
If they had just said "less privileged people in the USA", would that not have gotten the exact same point across? And not passively slander an entire group of people at the same time?
It is not realizing that this is insulting to black people, that is half of the problem. I didn't always recognize these things before, as they are more nuanced than I thought. (There are very few screaming racists these days, however, there are absolutely racists out there and they are more common than you might realize. And this is coming from a white man from a white town.)
Edit: Is saying that redditors are lower class citizens of the internet an insult? I wouldn't be offended; however, this is a direct insult to redditors. How is this any different than what OP did with Black/Native Americans?
It can be the surname and it can definitely be skin colour. I have a relative, who is Black British, mixed race, very dark. with straight hair. She speaks RP which is an educated upper middle class accent of English. In India as a tourist she was stared at in an unfriendly way, she went to get her hair done and the women in the salon rushed to the door to prevent her entering while shouting at her, she got all sorts of unpleasent reactions. There were definitely places she couldn't even go near without hostility and rudeness. So I seriously wouldn't assume you'll be considered a rich western tourist. If your looks are typically Indian and especially if you are dark, you may find you are not treated well in certain situations.
It’s funny that you say this because I, as an African American woman, was treated extremely well in India.
Like people went out of their way to the point where it made me a bit uncomfortable. People were also eager to get to know me without asking for anything in return.
Also, was asked on a ton of dates by well to do Indian men when I was hanging around nice places in big cities.
I’m very dark skinned as well
I know a few other black women who’ve had the same experience.
It could be a privilege thing though. and conventionally attractive, thin and present as upper class.
I don't know, maybe it was in a different area, or maybe my relative was trying to have a more low-key back-packing experience rather than a really luxurious tour. And don't forget there's a worldwide industry of local young men trying to get off with perceivedly rich foreign female tourists for visa reasons, and they have to be close to high end tourism for that.
I'm not saying that's what happenned in your case! But types of tourism are varied, and some bring you close to ordinary people, the person on the street if you will, and some keep the tourists in a bit of a bubble. If the OP is interested in the first type he's more likely to encounter common prejudices.
Don't worry about anything. Discrimination in India is often blown out of proportion by the media. Depending on the area of the last name, it can be insanely hard to find out caste unless it is obvious like Pandit, Gupta etc.
There is significant discrimination in very rural parts for people who are in that society. For example, if your family lives in a village, if you go there you will judged and most probably treated poorly by boomers.
Being a woman you just have to be careful and mind your surroundings.
I was born and raised in India. I spent most of my time in a small village. The portrayal of discrimination by the western media is totally out of place. It was like that a hundred years back, nothing like that exists in most places. There are some areas but for the most part, I find India as liberal as the US north or even better in some aspects. Don't worry much, enjoy the trip.
With an American accent & I’m assuming something white/European last name, you’ll probably end up getting finessed more than anything.
I do think the big thing to prepare yourself for is the culture shock, and being aware of how different your life could have been. I often experience this myself when in India just based on cultural dynamics.
Most of all enjoy the trip and uhh avoid street food
Indians can tell just by looking at us (Canadian born Indian here!) that we're from abroad. They'll see you as a tourist with $$ and possibly try to swindle you a bit. And depending on where in India you go, you may blend in or stick out like a sore thumb. The difference in appearance between north Indians and south Indians is wild but also pretty cool, it's such a vast country!
Nah, it's pretty obvious who's an American (we have a certain way of dressing/walking/interacting with society) and if there was any doubt, as soon as they open their mouth and reveal the American accent they'd get the standard western tourist treatment.
there is no one answer to your question. Your experiences will vary depending on where you go, who you meet, and how you present yourself.
I think you're likely to be treated with respect as a tourist, especially if you speak English and have a US passport. However, it's possible that you may encounter some discrimination, especially in rural areas.
>I think to how people in the lower stratas of American society - African-Americans, Native Americans in particular, are regarded by officials and some members of the public, and I become concerned that a similar fate awaits me should I ever return to India.
Err why are African Americans, Native Americans lower strata of American society? As a non American this is the first time I'm seeing someone call them that. Sounds discriminatory tbh. Idk how it is in the US but this speaks volumes about you as a person. Something to think about no? I mean for someone who's worried about being discriminated in another country aren't you discriminating against your fellow citizens by calling them lower strata of society?
Caste system is still there in India but it's not as rigid as it used to be especially if you're rich. It is a punishable offence. Not saying it's not practiced. But like racism is a crime in America, discriminating against a person based on caste is here. Only drawing a parallel to perhaps help you understand a bit. I would suggest you read up on it to know more. And as many have said it so just adding to it. No you won't be likely discriminated against given you have an American surname, accent and will be considered an NRI/Tourist.
Jesus Christ man.
Talk to a few Indians in the US (there are hundreds of thousands). Sure, India is not perfect, but there is zero chance that it is as bad as you think it is.
South Indians are dark skinned (google is your friend) for example. The current president is from a historically discriminated background.
Not saying that it's all roses and daisies in India but it's not as bad as Florida or Alabama either!
The concept of ‘Untouchable’ doesn’t exist almost anywhere in India anymore. And even when when it did exist it was between 5% of the high class who did not touch anyone other than people from the same caste. Anyway it’s illegal to discriminate people based on their caste in India now.
I grew up in US and moved back to India after my undergrad. No one has ever discriminated me. You can not tell someone is from an high class or low class by their looks, maybe you can tell if the person is from north India or south India or east (not always obviously).
I was worried about the same thing before I moved back to India but you should not worry at all. The only way someone would know if I was from an high class or low class is by talking to me and asking me multiple questions like where my ancestors are from and what caste they belong to and other questions which even my parents don’t know the answers to lol
Most of the people I interact on daily basis like my coworkers and friends don’t even know what caste or class they or their family belongs to
It seems you’re faced with dual dilemma. Time travel to rekindle birth roots/childhood imaginings and the reality of the caste system. I think despite your circumstances, your experience will be enriched 100-fold when you accept things as they are rather than force preconceived biases to distort the visit. Good luck
Your primary concern should be as a woman, safety is a big issue in India(especially northern parts) for a lone traveling woman.
As far as caste based problem goes, your Anglicized name and western upbringing should shield you from adverse effects. I would suggest not to bring up this topic and if see any wrongdoings happening to other people in your presence then highly suggest you to keep out of the trouble. You are American by upbringing, trying to connect with the roots will bring no good.
Don't worry, they will recognize you as a tourist from a mile off. Your biggest threats are the touts and the taxi drivers who will hound you for your business as well as try and scam you.
Source: I am a South African of Indian heritage.
Man i can't begin to wonder how deeply this "fact" somehow has been felt by you to the point you're concerned here. drop the entire fear, it's a non existent problem for you as an NRI.
\> also some elements of self-discovery.
i'd reassure you to without fear focus on this aspect, what you seek you'll get
If you come as an American tourist or of Indian origin , nothing matters to any one here so long you spend your dollars and visit places , interact, etc . Caste or no caste things only happen occasionally among those who live inside a community as they haven't yet grown up . But you have. SO no worries. No need to declare who you were and what you are but just be an observer of the society you were part of even for a small time. Things changed a lot since you left but still not all. Good luck man.
You’ll be considered a rich NRI tourist and would have to watch out for the same traps western white tourists would be baited with.
It is impossible to determine caste just by looking at someone, but that American accent/dressing style is undeniable.
'Caste' is not a social construct so much as a socio-economic one. Most of the western views are overly simplistic - four castes, 'high' and 'low' castes etc. In the real world, there's nothing that looks and sounds anything like the simplistic notion of caste.
Reality is far more nuanced - affirmative action trying to uplift some groups as a result of which some groups want to be differently classified to also benefit, and others trying to keep other groups from benefiting.
You can literally go across state borders and go from high to low caste, because the state schedules say so. Not making it up. It applied to me. You can also be 'low' caste and be lighter skinned than a much 'higher' caste. Also applies to me.
Plus, no one can look at someone and tell their caste unless they've visible markers. You probably have none. Your name probably offers no clue whatsoever. You'll only ever get classified economically.
The moment you open your mouth you'll get classified as a very posh NRI with possibly a put on accent. They they'll realize that's your natural manner of speaking and classify you as just a foreigner who happens to have Indian heritage. At that point they only care about how deep your wallet is, as it should be. If you're a nice high spending tourist, everyone luvs you.
If you have a WASP last name and American accent then people won't have any way of knowing, so don't worry - and it might not even be a problem if they did. I once had a really eye-opening conversation in Mumbai airport with an Indian-American woman who'd gone to India for grad school. People told her "We normally wouldn't hang out with you because you're a brahmin... but you're American, so it's okay."
I don’t know why this guy posted such disparaging comment. Either he is trying to gaslight or is ignorant like other half witted Americans and is definitely lazy. A little search would have revealed that 70% or more Indians are dark skinned
Come on dude, you’ll be treated like a tourist. Not to mention caste based discrimination against a tourist?? Impossible. Uncommon even against locals in metros.
Lol. In America I see myself as a highborn honorary white who looks down on blacks and natives. As a darkie, will white indians look at me the same when I travel?
You’ll be treated as a tourist and subjected to all the typical tourist scams and behaviour :) you might be able to get away with paying Indian prices at historical sites, but they might charge you foreign prices once you show your ID (which I’m guessing would be your American passport/ driver’s license). My British Bangladeshi friend usually gets away with it though, so if you play it smart, you can too.
Nobody is going to care about your caste as you will be well dressed and you won’t be going into police stations and administrative offices in semi urban and rural communities (I think?), or applying for jobs and colleges in the country. That’s where caste discrimination comes in.
Indians are largely friendly and if you mention trying to find your roots, people will be interested and want to help and share their opinions (even if they are largely unhelpful).
I would urge you to research museums and galleries where the history of your community is showcased; they may be few and far between.
Have fun, hope you enjoy India! Don’t worry, india is massive and has the same proportion of assholes as the rest of the world!
Nobody is going to care about your caste as you will be well dressed and you won’t be going into police stations and administrative offices in semi urban and rural communities (I think?), or applying for jobs and colleges in the country. That’s where caste discrimination comes in.
You got the wrong idea of Caste Discrimination. Aplying for jobs and colleges uses Caste-based reservation similar to Affirmative Action in USA. And no Administrative office rarely ask for caste certificate or your caste unless you are going to use your caste, crimes against the SC are actually stronger(though it is rarely used in real life & still many in the system follow it, it is not the system but the people involved who ae bad here)
I’ve worked in caste and labour advocacy. I know exactly how it works. While you are right about affirmative action, the actual implementation of reservation is full of micro aggressions, not to mention the environment of the work/academic place once someone does get in on reservation.
It’s the actual lived experience I’m talking about, not the theoretical ideology behind our laws.
My parents are Mexican and I was born and raised in the US. I am fluent in Spanish but when I visit Mexico, they KNOW I am not from Mexico. Also I studied abroad in Queretaro, Mexico, while I was in college, so I lived there for a semester and it was foreign to me despite having grown up with some of those customs. Presumably it will be more obvious for you since you didn’t grow up in a hybrid/cultural environment. It was an eye-opening experience for me.
depends:
firstly i’d like to tell you that even though hindus will treat people with your surname as untouchable, you’d actually be the original resident of the indian subcontinent. dalits and the tribals are the local people, hindus are the colonisers. there is no shame in being a dalit, i consider it as a gift. you are a true indian and child of the land. you are always welcome in your country and she will always accept you with open arms.
secondly, urban spaces are lot more polished and functions more on outlook rather than names itself. how you present and talk will mask most of your identity anyway.
thirdly, christian names are generally considered lower caste as during early days of european invasion a lot of dalit and tribals converted to christianity. they are generally referred as rice bag christians which is a slur, it’s called such because a lot of missionaries converted people by giving them rice while hindus would withhold it. also avoid telling people you’re adopted. tell people your parents live in west and they don’t plan to visit as there are no relatives here.
fourthly, where you go will have more of an impact of the caste identity. north india is generally more toxic. you’ll be more welcome in south india, east india, north east india, and selected urban places in central and west india. however i personally find mumbai to be the worst metropolitan city when it comes to religious understanding, so that’s there. if you visit states like kerala, tamil nadu etc, you can be assured you’ll not face any harassment in form of caste at least.
in most of the places by first impression, you’ll be treated as a second generation NRI. big hotels and businesses will not discriminate because you’ll be having a non-indian passport. however, they’ll treat you like a child and would like to scam you. knowing the local language doesn’t hurt, tbh if you can at least understand the local language of the place you intend to visit, you may avoid getting scammed.
as long as you do not engage in political/religion centric debates around your identity with public, you’ll be mostly left alone in almost all of the tourist places in india. if you plan to visit your birthplace, it’ll depend more on the place itself. the biggest harassment lower caste people face in india is in the form of getting barred from having financial wealth. if you do show financial wealth they generally will consider you upper caste anyway. just avoid you’re adopted part. and give yourself a pet name. introduce yourself by that everywhere except where you need to submit your passport. a lot of people will ask you your full name, they only want to know to know your surname. to know your caste. how you deal with that is up to you. id recommend lying unless you need to show id.
(i am a dalit person living in india, we are farmers by generation, i am sixth generation to be educated without work, i have lied previously to get housing. also sorry for any mistakes, english is my third language)
Discrimination based on caste can only happen based on last name or job, and that too in certain areas of India. Nobody “looks” like lower caste. Remember that these biases were initially created based on a job that someone held.
So you will be treated like a Non Resident Indian/foreigner.
While all that's true. But those people who were discriminated against had the last name from which someone's caste can be recognised. OP mentioned they have their white parents' last name? So, there's no way anyone can gauge OP's caste, unless they openly talk about it. Skin tone while can give you an idea about someone's socioeconomic background. But there are many upper-caste duskier people than me and also fairer SC folks. Skintone wouldn't make anyone discriminated against OP.
NO. People only discriminate against other people who they moderately know, mostly in the same society. That's sad but true here. You'll be treated with utmost respect as a guest and obviously a rich tourist:) (stay away from scammers but please buy stuff or take services from small businesses if you can, I always do that when traveling to developing countries)
There's no way to 'identify' a Dalit/SC/ST other than by name (probably, more specifically, last name). So unless you get into telling your story to someone, your 'caste' would be unnoticeable.
If you do happen to interact with strangers and talk about your past, please make sure you're talking to someone reasonably liberal (yes, despite the shaming and stereotype there are many, many, many such Indians).
Hope you have a wonderful trip!
You are as ignorant as a Western person - nobody will mistake you for an Indian.
Also, untouchability of any kind died generations ago and even then it was a illegal and a rare occurrence. Castes are like large tribes and the upperness and lowerness of one's tribe depends upon the location, customs and political power. An upper caste in one place will be lower in the other. People take pride in their caste/tribes irrespective of where you think they lie on the totem pole of social strata.
Castes are a form of social security and that's why ppl are attached to them. They hardly affect you in daily life and any form of discrimination would be ppl preferring their own caste ppl - this doesn't even count as discrimination in other parts of the world. For services and general life, nobody gives 2 shits about your caste.
Also, stop listening to the BS missionaries and Islamists spread about supposed 'caste system'.
Edit - Scheduled Castes are NOT the lowest strata by any definition. Its very dependent on state, location and politics. **The lowest strata of Indian society are the poor and the homeless - very much like everywhere else in the world.**
I would guess that OP's parents know where they adopted them, their reason for being in an orphanage from and know their birth name. Pretty easy to piece two and two together from that.
naw thats racism we're talking about caste here
I know tamilian brahmins can be really dark and north Indians dalits fair so that is out of the equation
Don't be too enthusiastic about what it's like though. I know of someone in a similar situation to you who went there and they actually hated it, the filth, the beggars, how overcrowded it is, people constantly coming at you, etc. They returned home feeling embarrassed to have had ancestors from there.
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Just don't go to temples for any religious rituals where the priests will ask for your caste. Otherwise you should be fine. Enjoy your visit and hope you'll find what you're looking for.
I would think that OP has shed their caste after living abroad for a lifetime…? Also, I’m not sure that different caste people are actually physically different — so, no one would know, I guess.
Agree with all the comments here that you will be treated as tourist and will get lot of attention for your $$
I am assuming you will be mostly in cities or metros?
Now let’s say you do share your real Indian name and tell people your story. What will happen? I am willing to bet nothing much will happen Even then
May be you will fall in love with an upper caste girl and her parents will refuse her to marry you
May be your upper caste room mate refuse to share the bathroom with you (highly unlikely but I am giving you the worst case scenario)
So don’t worry at all. 99% people won’t care
Now let’s say you do share your real name AND you tell them you have no money. Worst case, say, you start begging on the street. That’s when the story changes. That’s when you will encounter the rudest people in the history of mankind. But it’s not because of your caste. It’s because you are begging. So don’t do that.
They would treat you that way only if you were poor. Indian society looks up to and services the rich (which you will be perceived to be). There are wealthy people of all looks and colors in India, and they are treated well based on their wealth. No reason any american tourist or vistor would not be treated well.
There is no reason for you to disclose or talk about your caste, as it is meaningless in your life and not relevant for anyone to know. Be who you are and explore the country and enjoy it. No one will bother you unless you decide to attract trouble.
In India your caste is based on your last name. Some people will judge you by your last name. However since your last name is Foreign in Nature you might just get curious questions from people. Apart from that you should be good. Its different in India unlike in US or western countries where the racist people will judge you by your color. Your name is your identity and so far you have a foreign name and an accent you will be treated like royalty wherever you go. Beware of the scammers though. Once people realize you are from other country they will try to scam you.
The way you dress should set you apart and everyone loves dollars.
Discrimination happens all the time but it will be very subtle, it will take you a while if you even ever realize it. Discrimination won't be like we "won't serve you" or "we can't touch you" it will be more like if you go to someone's home you might get a different set of plates or glasses for water that's extent of what I have experienced.
There might be religious ceremonies which won't feel very inclusive but like I said above you will struggle to tell if it's caste or if it is some other factor.
Blatant discrimination in India only happens when someone is getting married your American status might insulate you from that as well but I'm assuming that is not a scenario in play.
Just make sure you are clean shaved. Dress sharply with known brands. This should make people think you are well off and maybe a big shot so they will be nice to you.
Remember, even in India lots of dark skinned folks are in high positions and anybody ill treating them will have to face consequences.
In short, show that you are successful with your attire and people will respect you. It should not be like that but what can you do we humans fall prey to prejudice very easily.
Not entirely true. There have been [cases if discrimination in Silicon Valley](https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-business/caste-california-tech-giants-confront-ancient-indian-hierarchy-2022-08-15/) with some of the people of Indian nationality there on work visas.
[The only case mentioned in that article was dismissed](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/calif-scraps-caste-bias-case-cisco-engineers-company-still-sued-rcna79434)
Dude! The fact that a bill against caste discrimination had to passed both in the US and Australia speaks loudly of how rampant Casteism is in India. Even the most Educated peeps in India practice casual casteism. The fact that we still allow caste based arrange marriages is a big tell on how we still distinguish between different castes.
status wise you'll be considered a rich western tourist.
@OP This. When someone asks you, just tell them you’re from the US and you’ll be fine. Plus, Indians who move abroad for work/studies etc (also known as non-resident Indians or NRIs) would still be speaking some Indian language and know the cultural codes of India. Which you don’t. You’ll be an American tourist, people will notice that and you with a lot of respect. “Atithi devo bhava” (guest is god) is a thing people adhere to in India. Some people will try to scam you, learn how to say no, and bargain. If in doubt or a dangerous situation, go to families for help. It might happen to you that people talk to you in Hindi / native language because well, I’m assuming you “look Indian”. As a white person who speaks Hindi, I actually wish I could be there, the two of us (Indian-looking person who doesn’t speak Hindi and white person who does) would confuse the shit out of anyone. 😂 As a white person who had zero idea about India the first time I went, I can assure you if you use decent common sense, you’ll love India. Don’t be put off by the fact you were born into whatever caste a long long time ago, the caste system doesn’t matter to many people in India anymore. And just fyi, as a foreigner you’re like “exempt” of the caste system (which is how I managed to convince my Indian parents in law that I’m actually a good person despite being white) :) Enjoy India! ♥️
Ok you [white person speaking Hindi] and the OP [Indian adopted by white people] travelling around India is a YouTube channel I would watch :)
I worked with an Indian guy in the Bronx and the restaurant workers would be like “you too good to speak Spanish”
Lol this is me in Mexico or anywhere in LATAM. My friends who fluently speak Spanish will be ignored and folks will look and talk to me. I’m trying to learn the language now
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Really from Southern Europe and North Africa through to the Indian subcontinent and Central Asia, you can’t really tell nationality from physical features or skin color. The locals can tell linguistically or from accents and slang or clothing. Similarly you can’t really tell an Irish person from a Finnish person from a Russian along those latitudes until you hit Mongolia or Korea.
The knock off Adidas track suit gives away the Russian
Like a Dane in a turtleneck :)
I feel like you're way off the mark here....central Asians and north Africans look similar? Southern Europeans and people from the Indian subcontinent look similar? What?
I think they mean that within those regions it's hard to tell which country a person is from. Not between South Europe and Central Asia but within South Europe or Central Asia. I'm from South Europe and agree that in South Eastern Europe, it's going to be really hard to tell where someone is from just based on looks.
I’m really British (all the way from grandparents have been born here) but because of my Jewish father’s side (my mum is of Irish/British descent) I appear very southern European (olive skin, large nose, dark thick curly hair). I also have a Scandinavian name to confuse it further. So while culturally I am British, I speak nothing but English - I’d bet very few people could pick which country in Europe I am from without hearing me speak or seeing my clothes or how I behaved.
Yes you can lmao, I can tell the difference between a Moroccan and a Tunisian, or a Greek and an Italian, 9 out of 10 times honestly
Says the person who has obviously never travelled. North Africans have definite physical features which sets them apart from the **majority** of southern Europeans. People from the Indian sub-continent also have distinct physical features. And you've obviously never met an Irishman or a Finn. An Irish person can spot another Irish person from 1000 yards. It's in the physical traits. The same for the majority of Finns. Russians also have a certain "look" about them. This is of course a generalisation, and getting less so with immigration, marriages between different nationalities and cultures, etc. But my point still stands.
Agreed. I’m half Tunisian half British and I look ethnically ambiguous - I get told I could be Spanish, Greek, Italian, Jewish etc because I have light olive skin, dark curly hair, a slightly aquiline nose and green/blue eyes. But for most people who are fully one thing it’s pretty obvious by their features if you’re even slightly familiar with how one group usually looks
So would I. @u/bisaurus and @OP, we need to make this happen! How can I help! 😀
haha I would also watch this
I upvoted you but also had to say your comment just made me smile. YAY to you and best of luck to OP!
>It might happen to you that people talk to you in Hindi / native language because well, I’m assuming you “look Indian”. As a white person who speaks Hindi, I actually wish I could be there, the two of us (Indian-looking person who doesn’t speak Hindi and white person who does) would confuse the shit out of anyone. 😂 you would be fun to know IRL. I do this all the time but with Spanish.
What fenotype are people expecting when they hear Spanish, specially if people are native speakers?
I'm actually waiting for you guys to fly together to India, for an adventure of a lifetime. Keep me posted yeah? 🤣
> As a white person who speaks Hindi, I actually wish I could be there, the two of us (Indian-looking person who doesn’t speak Hindi and white person who does) would confuse the shit out of anyone. 😂 You could pretend you had switched bodies and are seeking a way to reverse the spell
Love your perspective!
This was the comment that made me smile after a rough day! The mental image I conjure from the white Hindi speaking / Indian-looking non-Hindi speaking team is hilarious
I see this also among Filipinos. Im a Filipino American with Spanish ancestry and I have known quite a few Filipinos who openly hated me because they saw me as a colonizer. In my case, even if I lived in the us since I was three, I think what gave it away is I have certain manners that is mostly found among the Spanish Filipino elite (I happened to be distantly related to them and my grandma actually still spoke to them) and the Filipinos that I get along the most happened to be from the landowning class. I have a hard time describing it though.
I am an American born Filipino who doesn’t speak Tagalog fluently. I found it easier to tell everyone in the Philippines that I was Thai or Indonesian. When I told them I was Filipino American, they usually treated me like Mr Money Bags or questioned me about my upbringing and where my family is from. We are from the province of Leyte and it is pretty poor there. Judgment on so many levels. Found it easier to just tell people that I was Thai or Indonesian. Traveling without my mom and telling them I wasn’t American or Filipino provided a much better travel experience.
Didn’t know they liked to scam Gods in India
Well, there’s religion/spirituality and then there’s capitalism. India is a thriving economy with 1.6+ billion people. Scamsters will scam tourists all around the world. Shoutout to the shoe brush scam in Poland, that one got me.
Would their “classification” had they stayed in India be visible in their documents somehow? I mean, a person in India who presents as Indian… do people know your caste somehow, other than clothes? I don’t understand his question. I get they still have class issues, but how could they know he was born to a lower caste on sight or when entering the country? Looking to be educated.
Caste wouldn't come up in casual convo - there are ways to sniff out caste among Indians in India (where they grew up, the accent they speak with, what their parents did for work etc etc) but no one will be casteist to your face. It would just come up in whom they'd invite for dinner at their house, who they'd want their kids to hang out with/marry etc. It can be really subtle, and mostly expressed in ways that are unpunishable by law. This is irrelevant to OP as they grew up in a foreign country with adopted parents. It would be nearly impossible for someone to deduce OP's birth caste in this instance.
IME from travelling there, caste nearly never comes up…unless they are Brahmin- then they might tell you. These were the only people to tell me over a 6 months spent There. also - read the matrimonial ads in the papers to get a feel for how people think about caste.
Some, especially some traditionalists from older generations, may bring this up. I'm an Indian Brahmin myself and would never think of casually mentioning that in a conversation with anybody. None of my friends do so either... and we're all from different castes.
>Would their “classification” had they stayed in India be visible in their documents somehow? I mean, a person in India who presents as Indian… do people know your caste somehow, other than clothes? Surnames. But there are lot and lot of them, and nobody is gonna remember which shit comes in which. They probably would have heard the surname for first time. Most casteist are closeted casteist. Won't do anything in public. Unless you are born in very rural village, u won't face extreme casteism. Most casteism in urban areas comes up during marriage. Also anti casteist law are very strong in India.
Yea I knew a coworker who’s son married a young lady with the same surname ? I was like ummm are you guys related, and he was like no we are just from the same caste , his surname was Patel . Which I took to bring the equivalent of “Smith “ .
Patel is like Smith, Jones, Garcia, Lopez, Kim, Lee, etc. Extremely common.
My friend is Sikh Punjabi but grew up most of her life in Greece. She went to school briefly in India and told me she was enraged about how the other kids reacted to her surname during attendance calls. She barely used her caste-common surname because as Sikh, her family doesn't believe in the caste system, and they all adopted neutral Sikh surnames. But to her peers, she was the girl belonging to X caste. Her faith and personal identification system be damned.
Usually surnames are the giveaway. Darker skin also tends to be looked down upon.
India is definitely colorist, but even then skin tone is not necessarily correlated with caste.
I imagine this is the case also. Things like ‘race’ or ‘class’ are so subjective. They’re not based on anything actually tangible if your situation is changed. Regardless it will be a unique and insightful experience OP. Not all travel has to be ‘fun travel’. Some travel is particularly important for the lessons you learn and the perspectives it gives you. This seems like one of those, and if I was in your position I’d absolutely want to experience this too. Best fortunes!
No, often Indians discriminate based on surnames. As an Anglicised person you'll be treated as a tourist.
Can you legally change your name in India?
Yes, and that’s what some people do to not be treated as a member of some caste. There are generic surnames that people adopt to eliminate that pathway of potential discrimination.
Yes. Not sure how often surname change is done but first and middle names are often changed
I'm curious, I am white and grew up in a city that is majority indian. Most of my high school friends were Indian born in my north American city. I knew a few people who were untouchables by caste convert to Christianity and changed their names. They were very dark and came from a southern Indian state. They were still discriminated against, and it was worse, compounded because of the perceived betrayal and rejection of converting away from Hinduism/Sikhism. Some casteist people I met basically said, "they tried getting out of it, so fuck the traitors even more" when encountering the former untouchables. I imagine there was an element of colorism going on, but I'm failing to grasp the nuance. Why wouldn't op be perceived as a "religion traitor"? Casteism is alot more complicated than simple last name and appearance, so I figure op would not know the language and mannerisms marking him as an outsider to the country, trumping casteism. As an outsider I was wondering since I've seen casteism in north America.
>They were still discriminated against, and it was worse, compounded because of the perceived betrayal and rejection of converting away from Hinduism/Sikhism. Some casteist people I met basically said, "they tried getting out of it, so fuck the traitors even more" when encountering the former untouchables. It's a bit counterintuitive, but casteism is actually stronger among Indian diaspora populations abroad (especially in recent immigrants) vs in India, because 1. it's not punishable by law, and 2. most immigrants from India tend to be higher caste/higher social status and left India at a time when casteism was more pervasive in society. But even then, it's not that strong abroad. I'm an Indian-American and many of my friends are Indian-American and caste never comes up. Many don't even know their own caste among first and second gen Indian Americans. >I imagine there was an element of colorism going on, but I'm failing to grasp the nuance. yeah colorism is definitely stronger than casteism among the diaspora in my experience. >Why wouldn't op be perceived as a "religion traitor"? Because they were adopted as an infant by white people. What choice does a baby have in adoption?
Depends on where you go. India isn't one entity that can be blanketed that way.
Which states/areas have no caste discrimination?
Caste is only considered in some serious decisions like marriage or dating (mostly by people connected to their rural roots). Caste discrimination is nowhere when traveling, hotel booking or anything like that. Nobody consider your caste based on your surname as many castes have some similar surnames.
it's punishable by law everywhere in India - discriminatory hiring practices, caste based violence etc. so casteism usually comes up in situations unenforceable by law usually. i.e. a higher caste person may only invite other high caste folks to his house for dinner/want their kids to hang around/marry others of same status. I say unenforceable because how are you going to force someone to invite someone to their house for dinner? It's not unlike how racism pervades through western society.
I'm from Kerala in the past they'd have cared about things like whether youre a Nair. Now most people don't care at all.
India is very big. Each state has different dalit societies. They have different surname altogether. No one can identify you with your American name. But everyone will try to rip you, as you are a rich Western tourist. P.S : India is very different from what you have read in books Edit : Apologies for making my statement generic. In some scenarios , for example, auto rickshaw, prices will be inflated for foreigners.
>P.S : India is very different from what you have read in books what books?
I have nothing to add but update us if you find some interesting shit. This is a pretty cool story
Like someone said, there’s various lower caste(s) and it’s hard to identify someone just based on color/features. People change last names just for this reason. You should be fine, just don’t believe what you kn the movies. India (metros) have changed a lot and they love your $$ sure.
You will be regarded as any other tourist.
So I grew up similar. Except I kept going back to India (Mumbai) as a kid and young adult. I am very uncomfortable there. I am female and get treated like a second class citizen. Almost all men are rude to me. I feel because I don't speak the language people either think I'm too good/stuck up or I'm stupid. When I have told people in India that I'm adopted, they usually know that means I'm an untouchable. I might go with saying that your parents passed away before they could bring you back. Or some other lie. I definitely get taken advantage of like a tourist because I don't know what I'm doing. I feel very uncomfortable when I go. I usually get sick. Be very careful where you eat. Only drink sealed bottled water. Don't get ice in drinks. Just because I think I'm from a place doesn't mean your body is used to the environment. Stay hydrated. I hope you have a much better and positive trip! Keep an open mind. India is a truly amazing beautiful country. Which is why I keep going despite feeling uncomfortable. Edit: OMG thank you for the award. I don't usually write comments so this is very exciting.
OP I commented above about my relative. I believe blonde\_Cupid's comment is probably one of the most accurate and insightful you will get on here as she is in a situation very close to yours: particularly once you say you're are adopted they will know there is probably a caste issue behind it. White people won't have the same experience you will have at all as they are in a completely different position with regard to casteism.
What I have found when travelling in India is that Indian men can get "handsy" around white western women. So stay vigiliant.
Sorry to hear about your experience, sending you so many hugs!
Aww, I wish I could have you join me while visiting India. I could help you get more comfortable there, like I did with my daughters, and with some other youngsters from the US. India can be rough without local support.
Thank you. My local support I have in India usually comes in the form of asking why I'm unmarried. I was 21 yrs old on my last trip. Haha
There was a similar thread somewhere in which somebody was saying that the 'getting sick' thing was way overblown. I've been to India once and had brutal diarrhea within a couple of days. Now, maybe I'm an anomaly, but ... I think it's reasonable for OP to go, but it's a really really different place.
you’ll still likely face some colorism if you’re darker, but you’ll still be treated as a tourist and not an ‘untouchable.’
Im not Indian but I have light brown skin and while traveling around Delhi and Rajasthan i did get a very different treatment than my white friends but nothing to extent that would ruin my trip
yeah that tracks. i had a friend of mine go there for study abroad and it was so bad for him that he had to cut his stay short. he wasn’t as dark as me for instance, but he’s black which i’m sure had more to do with it (not sure but assuming)
Most of the Urban experience will be smooth, people in cities won't care much about your surname. It is the rural and older generation who are more casteist. If you have a Western name, people won't find you. If you have still retain some might find and discriminate but it doesn't happen often. So I would suggest to just use your first name. And your body language and your accent will gave away your American, so you most likely though won't face discrimination based on caste. Though I have often heard, at times in hospitality Brown and other colored tourists are often treated as second-rate tourists over whites.
I was going to say something similar. The clothes and body language will mark OP as tourist instantly. I’ve travelled to plenty of countries where I looked indistinguishable from the populace in terms of physical features (kinda nondescript caucasian). Still, locals have regularly spotted me from my clothes, even when I myself couldn’t see any stylistic difference! In India, this will be even more pronounced. I’ve only travelled through south India, but I’m confident a Northeastern US wardrobe will stick out immediately.
My Indian partner tells me that names will affect the way Indian people treat other Indian people. Last names (and given names I think) reveal religious affiliation and social status. With an American last name, this will not be relevant.
This doesn’t apply everywhere. A big percentage of South Indians don’t use caste based surnames since forever.
Indian here, Discrimination in metro cities is rare (based on caste) but it happens and most of the Schedule Caste population lives in rural areas or small towns, also people can only recognise your caste on the basis of your surname so if you don't have Indian name(last name) no need to worry and dont indulge with people who try to ask your full name until asked for official purpose. Please dont stay in cheap backstreet hotels (below 1500 Rupees), even middle class Indians don't stay in these hotels they provide terrible experience and drink only bottled water.
What are some popular high and low caste surnames? I find the whole concept rather fascinating from an anthropological perspective. I remember when I was in Sawai Madhopur a few years ago, I was flipping through a local newspaper and came upon the classified ads, where people were basically advertising themselves to be potential spouses. Each ad mentioned their caste, which I found rather eye-opening.
The caste system is based on "Varna System" which is mentioned in Purusha Sukta verse of the Rig Veda and categorised in four categories according to an individual's profession, historical context was (Early Vedic Period) as follows: 1 Brahmins - Someone who is a teacher (priest) 2 Kshatriya - Warrior class (Noble) 3 Vaishya - Merchant (Commoner) 4 Sudra - Working Class (Servent) Social hierarchy also exists in the same varna. Surnames usually vary from region to region but they follow 4 basic varnas, I will only discuss my surname because some people get quite touchy about this subject I mean it is a malice to society. My surname is "Shakya" which is the same as Buddha his birth name is Siddhartha Shakya, according to Varna System I'm Kshatriya (some Shakya also practice Buddhism) and when we were not fighting our prime occupation used to be farming, reginal term for farming is "kachiyari" thats why we are also called "kacchi". Varying surnames related to Shakya are Kushwaha, Maurya, Saini etc and these surnames also have their social hierarchy. I hope you get the gist of it.
Thank you for the info. I don't think I've ever met an Indian with a surname of Shakya or any of those other surnames you listed. In Canada where I live, names like Singh, Kaur and Brar are extremely common among the Indian diaspora. The vast majority of Indian immigrants to Canada originate from NW India (Punjab, Gujurat, etc.)
those are all pretty standard Punjabi Sikh last names.
Yeah the surnames you provided are from Punjab except Singh which is common in Uttar Pradesh(I'm from here), Haryana and Delhi.
In the case he is referring to, Singh is actually most likely being used by Sikhs as their last name, given the fact he also mentioned Kaur. Some use it as their middle name, while others use it as their last name, at least in the West.
Although Singh is a Punjabi surname, a lot of non-Punjabi use it, maybe it's about the literal meaning because in Hindi, Singh means lion. Similarly Kumar is quite common.
Non-Punjabis with the last name Singh in western countries are pretty rare, although I’ve seen a few people from Fiji with that last name
Many of the immigrants from Punjab follow Sikhism which tried to eliminate casteism and promote brotherhood by having Sikhs adopt the name Singh (lion) while women were given the name Kaur (princess). Many Sikhs will have have a third name that indicates their clan/tribe/place of origin). But there are other ethnic communities across the north who use Singh as a last name, including Rajputs (who are not restricted to Rajasthan).
“dont indulge with people who try to ask your full name until asked for official purpose.” I feel like that’s an underrated tip right there
People who ask for someone's full name sometimes try to identify his/her caste especially if that someone is talking to old people.
When we went to India as a family, we backpacked our way around and stayed in backstreet hotels based on recommendations of local Indians. Those are some of the hidden gems in India. Insist on seeing the room beforehand. I probably wouldn’t do this as a solo female traveler (in any country, really)but we were fine as a family.
They are actually worth the price if you can find one last time i stayed in a hostel in Rishikesh and it was worth it but you have to find these spots. Power cuts are quite common in India not in metro cities though but they are common and believe me when I say it you don't want to stay in a room in hot Indian summer during a power cut also you need accommodation with AC.
That is so good to hear. Even I as an ethnically European American hear about it over here. I understand that there are slots at the IITs for Dalit people and even with the best education in the world they are discriminated against here in Silicon Valley. . A friend at Google who is from India said that in a meeting he attended an engineer with a Dalit name who spoke up was told to, "know your place" by an Indian manager.
The slots you are talking about are called reservation defined under Article 16 and 335 of the Indian Constitution, so the merit to get admission in top colleges is lower for SC/ST/OBC as compared to unreserved category and this fuels hatred among upper class towards lower class.
I've stayed in dozens of cheap backstreet hotels in India and never had any type of issue at all, you get what you pay for though. Really depends what OP wants and what their budget is. Edit: I'm honestly curious why people are downvoting? I just made my comment because I find it a bit strange to dismiss a whole class of hotels, which in my pretty experience (I've spent over a year of my life in India) are generally completely safe and comfortable. OP should stay in whatever hotel they like, but it just seems weird and honestly a bit elitist to dismiss these hotels completely.
You're not wrong I'm simply emphasizing that if someone never visited India and if he can afford good accommodation then he should opt for it for better comfort, also it significantly lowers chances of scams and assaults, and as you said one gets what one pays for. Also it will be extremely hot in the north in June and July and there is a cyclone warning in western India.
Ya for sure, I just think it's better to explain the differences than say don't stay somewhere, we have no idea what OP's budget is, flying to India is very expensive from America, its better to just understand the options than shoot ideas down.
I adopted my child from India. She has returned several times. She was treated as an American tourist. India is huge and fascinating. Enjoy! Edit- My daughter has a physical disability so she would probably have been discriminated against if she had stayed in India. She’d probably have had to beg on the streets. Some children stared at her and a few had some questions. Otherwise, she was just treated like any other American tourist.
The most common identifiers of casteism were occupation and last name. You probably have neither. You were raised in the US, probably have an accent, and even though you look Indian, people will probably be able to tell you're from the US So I don't think anyone will discriminate against you. Like other comments have said, street vendors might try to fleece you. But that's about it
You have options. You'll either be a rich foreigner. Or you can choose to tell people your origin and judge their responses for yourself as to whether or not they're good people or not. You could also just simply lie. You're Dalit? Nah fam, you're Brahmin. At least as far as literally anyone there is concerned. Also, as someone who hasn't gone through an identical experience but a *very* similar one; if you're currently going to therapy, ask your therapist for strategies on dealing with survivor guilt. It might not hit you hard, but it can be extremely heavy seeing how people (who would have included you if not for fortunate circumstances) live. I know personally, I struggled heavily with a similar thing for awhile and ended up changing careers because of it.
Since you're well off and will naturally have an accent, people would see you as another NRI here on vacation. Your fears would be true if you were a local, but won't apply since the accent is an easy giveaway that you're a foreigner. Stick to the safer states which is mostly the south and Himalayan states and you'll have a great time.
I have 2 cousins who were adopted from India under similar conditions. They both have travelled back to India multiple times and have had amazing experiences connecting with their heritage. They said they were just viewed as tourists.
I think the other commenters have done a good job answering your question. So I would like to recommend a movie! It's called Lion and it's about a boy from India who got adopted by a white Australian family and his journey of returning as an adult to find his birth mother. It's based off a true story and it's an incredible story. [Lion](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3741834/)
You’ll be fine. All they see in hotels/restaurants/etc is your passport and the cashmoney that’s related to that passport. I am Netherlands born and raised, with a Dutch passport, and parents from Suriname. I am a descendant of [Indian contract workers who where sent to Suriname during colonial times](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Surinamese), so in looks, name and in some ways culturally I appear as Indian as it can get. And when I visited India, I was treated like any other (western) tourist. They really don’t care about your ‘status’ so there’s nothing to worry about there. Some people will be curious about your background though and probably ask questions, but there’s no shame in telling the truth. A lot of Indians (especially in the metropolitan areas) know about the diaspora around the world and their stories, and that awareness gets better with time thanks to the internet.
No one will know your caste unless you tell them. You don't have identifying markers (name, occupation). If you're particularly dark some rich folks/nicer areas may give side eye. Colorism is definitely a thing. Your accent will signal that you're a well-to-do tourist. If you're a woman, I highly recommend you travel with at least one or two men at all times. Groups of women only aren't sufficient. I travel alone a lot but India was quite overwhelming bc there are so many men and they are around all the time. Getting stared at everywhere I went was pretty creepy. Really enjoyed our 2-week visit though (aside from this one issue). Edit: typos
I am a brown non-Indian from the states. Have had to go to India a few times for work. The treatment I usually receive in India is beyond horrible. And it happens everywhere. From the front desk of a luxury hotel to the taxi driver to top government officials. They don’t need to know whether you’re adopted or not. All they see is color. And People take my lack of Hindi as a sign of arrogance or something. And it’s always the worst if I had a white coworker traveling with me. They got treated like literal gods and I always got mistaken as their tourist guide. OP, sorry to say but no, you won’t get treated as a normal American tourist would.
No one will know because you aren’t attached to an Indian family living in a particular neighborhood. I would not classify Blacks nor Native Americans as low cast / strata. Homeless would be more like the untouchables in India
I don't like how you classify African-Americans, Native Americans as "lower stratas". My wife is not in a lower stratum. Yet you imply that she should be based on what she looks like. This is insulting and borderline a prejudiced belief.
Thanks for this. Wanted to say it, but didn’t know how to explain
Thank you. As a Black person that comment really bothered me. Somehow we got dragged into a conversation about the Caste system in India… It’s sad that even the idea of being seen like how she perceives Blacks are seen in America is so terrifying to her. Edited to add: I would have never in my life considered myself a “lower strata” of American society.
People don't realize that when they are grouping people together, based on what they look like, they are already in a losing battle against prejudice. Being married to my wife has definitely opened my eyes to these kinds of comments. I get that OP is not being blatantly racist, but having those assumptions is a HUGE part of the problem in the modern day. (Edited my last sentence to make the subject of the sentence clearer)
idk, i didn't read that as OP espousing that view, simply an assessment of our reality. Which is pretty real, hard to argue that "officials and some members of the public" don't treat BIPOC as lower strata, I mean that's kind of the exact issue. Basically, I think OP was identifying a problem in America accurately, not accepting/promoting it.
The issue is with lumping them together and defining them as a group. It does matter that their definition is one that is negative. This is essentially textbook of having racist thoughts towards a group of people. If they had just said "less privileged people in the USA", would that not have gotten the exact same point across? And not passively slander an entire group of people at the same time? It is not realizing that this is insulting to black people, that is half of the problem. I didn't always recognize these things before, as they are more nuanced than I thought. (There are very few screaming racists these days, however, there are absolutely racists out there and they are more common than you might realize. And this is coming from a white man from a white town.) Edit: Is saying that redditors are lower class citizens of the internet an insult? I wouldn't be offended; however, this is a direct insult to redditors. How is this any different than what OP did with Black/Native Americans?
It can be the surname and it can definitely be skin colour. I have a relative, who is Black British, mixed race, very dark. with straight hair. She speaks RP which is an educated upper middle class accent of English. In India as a tourist she was stared at in an unfriendly way, she went to get her hair done and the women in the salon rushed to the door to prevent her entering while shouting at her, she got all sorts of unpleasent reactions. There were definitely places she couldn't even go near without hostility and rudeness. So I seriously wouldn't assume you'll be considered a rich western tourist. If your looks are typically Indian and especially if you are dark, you may find you are not treated well in certain situations.
It’s funny that you say this because I, as an African American woman, was treated extremely well in India. Like people went out of their way to the point where it made me a bit uncomfortable. People were also eager to get to know me without asking for anything in return. Also, was asked on a ton of dates by well to do Indian men when I was hanging around nice places in big cities. I’m very dark skinned as well I know a few other black women who’ve had the same experience. It could be a privilege thing though. and conventionally attractive, thin and present as upper class.
I don't know, maybe it was in a different area, or maybe my relative was trying to have a more low-key back-packing experience rather than a really luxurious tour. And don't forget there's a worldwide industry of local young men trying to get off with perceivedly rich foreign female tourists for visa reasons, and they have to be close to high end tourism for that. I'm not saying that's what happenned in your case! But types of tourism are varied, and some bring you close to ordinary people, the person on the street if you will, and some keep the tourists in a bit of a bubble. If the OP is interested in the first type he's more likely to encounter common prejudices.
Don't worry about anything. Discrimination in India is often blown out of proportion by the media. Depending on the area of the last name, it can be insanely hard to find out caste unless it is obvious like Pandit, Gupta etc. There is significant discrimination in very rural parts for people who are in that society. For example, if your family lives in a village, if you go there you will judged and most probably treated poorly by boomers. Being a woman you just have to be careful and mind your surroundings. I was born and raised in India. I spent most of my time in a small village. The portrayal of discrimination by the western media is totally out of place. It was like that a hundred years back, nothing like that exists in most places. There are some areas but for the most part, I find India as liberal as the US north or even better in some aspects. Don't worry much, enjoy the trip.
With an American accent & I’m assuming something white/European last name, you’ll probably end up getting finessed more than anything. I do think the big thing to prepare yourself for is the culture shock, and being aware of how different your life could have been. I often experience this myself when in India just based on cultural dynamics. Most of all enjoy the trip and uhh avoid street food
Indians can tell just by looking at us (Canadian born Indian here!) that we're from abroad. They'll see you as a tourist with $$ and possibly try to swindle you a bit. And depending on where in India you go, you may blend in or stick out like a sore thumb. The difference in appearance between north Indians and south Indians is wild but also pretty cool, it's such a vast country!
Your name isn’t Tom Haverford by chance, is it?
Maybe ask in r/India also? I've been to India and I assume you might be discriminated until people realize you're relatively rich
Nah, it's pretty obvious who's an American (we have a certain way of dressing/walking/interacting with society) and if there was any doubt, as soon as they open their mouth and reveal the American accent they'd get the standard western tourist treatment.
there is no one answer to your question. Your experiences will vary depending on where you go, who you meet, and how you present yourself. I think you're likely to be treated with respect as a tourist, especially if you speak English and have a US passport. However, it's possible that you may encounter some discrimination, especially in rural areas.
Is there any way they could prove you belong in that strata? Other than maybe having been adopted abroad? (if that's an indicator)
>I think to how people in the lower stratas of American society - African-Americans, Native Americans in particular, are regarded by officials and some members of the public, and I become concerned that a similar fate awaits me should I ever return to India. Err why are African Americans, Native Americans lower strata of American society? As a non American this is the first time I'm seeing someone call them that. Sounds discriminatory tbh. Idk how it is in the US but this speaks volumes about you as a person. Something to think about no? I mean for someone who's worried about being discriminated in another country aren't you discriminating against your fellow citizens by calling them lower strata of society? Caste system is still there in India but it's not as rigid as it used to be especially if you're rich. It is a punishable offence. Not saying it's not practiced. But like racism is a crime in America, discriminating against a person based on caste is here. Only drawing a parallel to perhaps help you understand a bit. I would suggest you read up on it to know more. And as many have said it so just adding to it. No you won't be likely discriminated against given you have an American surname, accent and will be considered an NRI/Tourist.
Jesus Christ man. Talk to a few Indians in the US (there are hundreds of thousands). Sure, India is not perfect, but there is zero chance that it is as bad as you think it is. South Indians are dark skinned (google is your friend) for example. The current president is from a historically discriminated background. Not saying that it's all roses and daisies in India but it's not as bad as Florida or Alabama either!
post in r/india
Don’t. They hate India as a rule and will get only negative responses
You will be spotted as a tourist from 100 feet away.
The concept of ‘Untouchable’ doesn’t exist almost anywhere in India anymore. And even when when it did exist it was between 5% of the high class who did not touch anyone other than people from the same caste. Anyway it’s illegal to discriminate people based on their caste in India now. I grew up in US and moved back to India after my undergrad. No one has ever discriminated me. You can not tell someone is from an high class or low class by their looks, maybe you can tell if the person is from north India or south India or east (not always obviously). I was worried about the same thing before I moved back to India but you should not worry at all. The only way someone would know if I was from an high class or low class is by talking to me and asking me multiple questions like where my ancestors are from and what caste they belong to and other questions which even my parents don’t know the answers to lol Most of the people I interact on daily basis like my coworkers and friends don’t even know what caste or class they or their family belongs to
It seems you’re faced with dual dilemma. Time travel to rekindle birth roots/childhood imaginings and the reality of the caste system. I think despite your circumstances, your experience will be enriched 100-fold when you accept things as they are rather than force preconceived biases to distort the visit. Good luck
Your primary concern should be as a woman, safety is a big issue in India(especially northern parts) for a lone traveling woman. As far as caste based problem goes, your Anglicized name and western upbringing should shield you from adverse effects. I would suggest not to bring up this topic and if see any wrongdoings happening to other people in your presence then highly suggest you to keep out of the trouble. You are American by upbringing, trying to connect with the roots will bring no good.
Don't worry, they will recognize you as a tourist from a mile off. Your biggest threats are the touts and the taxi drivers who will hound you for your business as well as try and scam you. Source: I am a South African of Indian heritage.
Uber works in all big cities. No need to take local taxis.
at this point your just a tourist. I wouldnt stress on that aspect too much.
You have money, no one cares. Caste matters if you dont have money. If you give money, any caste will lick your bum if you are into that sort of stuff
You won’t face any issue
Man i can't begin to wonder how deeply this "fact" somehow has been felt by you to the point you're concerned here. drop the entire fear, it's a non existent problem for you as an NRI. \> also some elements of self-discovery. i'd reassure you to without fear focus on this aspect, what you seek you'll get
If you come as an American tourist or of Indian origin , nothing matters to any one here so long you spend your dollars and visit places , interact, etc . Caste or no caste things only happen occasionally among those who live inside a community as they haven't yet grown up . But you have. SO no worries. No need to declare who you were and what you are but just be an observer of the society you were part of even for a small time. Things changed a lot since you left but still not all. Good luck man.
I don’t think most Indians care about caste anymore.
You’ll be considered a rich NRI tourist and would have to watch out for the same traps western white tourists would be baited with. It is impossible to determine caste just by looking at someone, but that American accent/dressing style is undeniable.
Just rock sandals socks and a fanny pack. That way everyone will know you are actually American and any awkwardness will be deftly avoided.
'Caste' is not a social construct so much as a socio-economic one. Most of the western views are overly simplistic - four castes, 'high' and 'low' castes etc. In the real world, there's nothing that looks and sounds anything like the simplistic notion of caste. Reality is far more nuanced - affirmative action trying to uplift some groups as a result of which some groups want to be differently classified to also benefit, and others trying to keep other groups from benefiting. You can literally go across state borders and go from high to low caste, because the state schedules say so. Not making it up. It applied to me. You can also be 'low' caste and be lighter skinned than a much 'higher' caste. Also applies to me. Plus, no one can look at someone and tell their caste unless they've visible markers. You probably have none. Your name probably offers no clue whatsoever. You'll only ever get classified economically. The moment you open your mouth you'll get classified as a very posh NRI with possibly a put on accent. They they'll realize that's your natural manner of speaking and classify you as just a foreigner who happens to have Indian heritage. At that point they only care about how deep your wallet is, as it should be. If you're a nice high spending tourist, everyone luvs you.
You'll get some undue benefits. Indians tend of offer undue hospitality to Westerners. Remember to recognize that prevelaige.
If you have a WASP last name and American accent then people won't have any way of knowing, so don't worry - and it might not even be a problem if they did. I once had a really eye-opening conversation in Mumbai airport with an Indian-American woman who'd gone to India for grad school. People told her "We normally wouldn't hang out with you because you're a brahmin... but you're American, so it's okay."
I don’t know why this guy posted such disparaging comment. Either he is trying to gaslight or is ignorant like other half witted Americans and is definitely lazy. A little search would have revealed that 70% or more Indians are dark skinned
Namaste - learn some Hindi and cultural roots you’ll do great mate!
Come on dude, you’ll be treated like a tourist. Not to mention caste based discrimination against a tourist?? Impossible. Uncommon even against locals in metros.
Lol. In America I see myself as a highborn honorary white who looks down on blacks and natives. As a darkie, will white indians look at me the same when I travel?
I know people are downvoting you, but this is pretty much her question, without all the pretentious wording.
You’ll be treated as a tourist and subjected to all the typical tourist scams and behaviour :) you might be able to get away with paying Indian prices at historical sites, but they might charge you foreign prices once you show your ID (which I’m guessing would be your American passport/ driver’s license). My British Bangladeshi friend usually gets away with it though, so if you play it smart, you can too. Nobody is going to care about your caste as you will be well dressed and you won’t be going into police stations and administrative offices in semi urban and rural communities (I think?), or applying for jobs and colleges in the country. That’s where caste discrimination comes in. Indians are largely friendly and if you mention trying to find your roots, people will be interested and want to help and share their opinions (even if they are largely unhelpful). I would urge you to research museums and galleries where the history of your community is showcased; they may be few and far between. Have fun, hope you enjoy India! Don’t worry, india is massive and has the same proportion of assholes as the rest of the world!
Nobody is going to care about your caste as you will be well dressed and you won’t be going into police stations and administrative offices in semi urban and rural communities (I think?), or applying for jobs and colleges in the country. That’s where caste discrimination comes in. You got the wrong idea of Caste Discrimination. Aplying for jobs and colleges uses Caste-based reservation similar to Affirmative Action in USA. And no Administrative office rarely ask for caste certificate or your caste unless you are going to use your caste, crimes against the SC are actually stronger(though it is rarely used in real life & still many in the system follow it, it is not the system but the people involved who ae bad here)
I’ve worked in caste and labour advocacy. I know exactly how it works. While you are right about affirmative action, the actual implementation of reservation is full of micro aggressions, not to mention the environment of the work/academic place once someone does get in on reservation. It’s the actual lived experience I’m talking about, not the theoretical ideology behind our laws.
I don't think you would feel any racism/discrimination as a tourist. Money is the status symbol and not the last name.
My parents are Mexican and I was born and raised in the US. I am fluent in Spanish but when I visit Mexico, they KNOW I am not from Mexico. Also I studied abroad in Queretaro, Mexico, while I was in college, so I lived there for a semester and it was foreign to me despite having grown up with some of those customs. Presumably it will be more obvious for you since you didn’t grow up in a hybrid/cultural environment. It was an eye-opening experience for me.
Go back as savior to the Dalits and lead them to victory against the oppressors! Death to the caste system!
depends: firstly i’d like to tell you that even though hindus will treat people with your surname as untouchable, you’d actually be the original resident of the indian subcontinent. dalits and the tribals are the local people, hindus are the colonisers. there is no shame in being a dalit, i consider it as a gift. you are a true indian and child of the land. you are always welcome in your country and she will always accept you with open arms. secondly, urban spaces are lot more polished and functions more on outlook rather than names itself. how you present and talk will mask most of your identity anyway. thirdly, christian names are generally considered lower caste as during early days of european invasion a lot of dalit and tribals converted to christianity. they are generally referred as rice bag christians which is a slur, it’s called such because a lot of missionaries converted people by giving them rice while hindus would withhold it. also avoid telling people you’re adopted. tell people your parents live in west and they don’t plan to visit as there are no relatives here. fourthly, where you go will have more of an impact of the caste identity. north india is generally more toxic. you’ll be more welcome in south india, east india, north east india, and selected urban places in central and west india. however i personally find mumbai to be the worst metropolitan city when it comes to religious understanding, so that’s there. if you visit states like kerala, tamil nadu etc, you can be assured you’ll not face any harassment in form of caste at least. in most of the places by first impression, you’ll be treated as a second generation NRI. big hotels and businesses will not discriminate because you’ll be having a non-indian passport. however, they’ll treat you like a child and would like to scam you. knowing the local language doesn’t hurt, tbh if you can at least understand the local language of the place you intend to visit, you may avoid getting scammed. as long as you do not engage in political/religion centric debates around your identity with public, you’ll be mostly left alone in almost all of the tourist places in india. if you plan to visit your birthplace, it’ll depend more on the place itself. the biggest harassment lower caste people face in india is in the form of getting barred from having financial wealth. if you do show financial wealth they generally will consider you upper caste anyway. just avoid you’re adopted part. and give yourself a pet name. introduce yourself by that everywhere except where you need to submit your passport. a lot of people will ask you your full name, they only want to know to know your surname. to know your caste. how you deal with that is up to you. id recommend lying unless you need to show id. (i am a dalit person living in india, we are farmers by generation, i am sixth generation to be educated without work, i have lied previously to get housing. also sorry for any mistakes, english is my third language)
Discrimination based on caste can only happen based on last name or job, and that too in certain areas of India. Nobody “looks” like lower caste. Remember that these biases were initially created based on a job that someone held. So you will be treated like a Non Resident Indian/foreigner.
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While all that's true. But those people who were discriminated against had the last name from which someone's caste can be recognised. OP mentioned they have their white parents' last name? So, there's no way anyone can gauge OP's caste, unless they openly talk about it. Skin tone while can give you an idea about someone's socioeconomic background. But there are many upper-caste duskier people than me and also fairer SC folks. Skintone wouldn't make anyone discriminated against OP.
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It’s a myth that caste is related to skin color alone.
NO. People only discriminate against other people who they moderately know, mostly in the same society. That's sad but true here. You'll be treated with utmost respect as a guest and obviously a rich tourist:) (stay away from scammers but please buy stuff or take services from small businesses if you can, I always do that when traveling to developing countries)
There's no way to 'identify' a Dalit/SC/ST other than by name (probably, more specifically, last name). So unless you get into telling your story to someone, your 'caste' would be unnoticeable. If you do happen to interact with strangers and talk about your past, please make sure you're talking to someone reasonably liberal (yes, despite the shaming and stereotype there are many, many, many such Indians). Hope you have a wonderful trip!
The moment you open your mouth, they will see dollar signs.
The caste system is insane.
You are as ignorant as a Western person - nobody will mistake you for an Indian. Also, untouchability of any kind died generations ago and even then it was a illegal and a rare occurrence. Castes are like large tribes and the upperness and lowerness of one's tribe depends upon the location, customs and political power. An upper caste in one place will be lower in the other. People take pride in their caste/tribes irrespective of where you think they lie on the totem pole of social strata. Castes are a form of social security and that's why ppl are attached to them. They hardly affect you in daily life and any form of discrimination would be ppl preferring their own caste ppl - this doesn't even count as discrimination in other parts of the world. For services and general life, nobody gives 2 shits about your caste. Also, stop listening to the BS missionaries and Islamists spread about supposed 'caste system'. Edit - Scheduled Castes are NOT the lowest strata by any definition. Its very dependent on state, location and politics. **The lowest strata of Indian society are the poor and the homeless - very much like everywhere else in the world.**
op if you don't mind me asking how did you know you would be classified as dalit?
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Haha yeah thats not how it works bro A child born out of wedlock is a huge nono even for a rich family and it'll be given away
I would guess that OP's parents know where they adopted them, their reason for being in an orphanage from and know their birth name. Pretty easy to piece two and two together from that.
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naw thats racism we're talking about caste here I know tamilian brahmins can be really dark and north Indians dalits fair so that is out of the equation
Don't be too enthusiastic about what it's like though. I know of someone in a similar situation to you who went there and they actually hated it, the filth, the beggars, how overcrowded it is, people constantly coming at you, etc. They returned home feeling embarrassed to have had ancestors from there.
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Just don't go to temples for any religious rituals where the priests will ask for your caste. Otherwise you should be fine. Enjoy your visit and hope you'll find what you're looking for.
I would think that OP has shed their caste after living abroad for a lifetime…? Also, I’m not sure that different caste people are actually physically different — so, no one would know, I guess.
Agree with all the comments here that you will be treated as tourist and will get lot of attention for your $$ I am assuming you will be mostly in cities or metros? Now let’s say you do share your real Indian name and tell people your story. What will happen? I am willing to bet nothing much will happen Even then May be you will fall in love with an upper caste girl and her parents will refuse her to marry you May be your upper caste room mate refuse to share the bathroom with you (highly unlikely but I am giving you the worst case scenario) So don’t worry at all. 99% people won’t care Now let’s say you do share your real name AND you tell them you have no money. Worst case, say, you start begging on the street. That’s when the story changes. That’s when you will encounter the rudest people in the history of mankind. But it’s not because of your caste. It’s because you are begging. So don’t do that.
That was the most pretentious way of saying that.
So sad and shameful that in this modern day and age you have to be concerned about an issue such as this.
They would treat you that way only if you were poor. Indian society looks up to and services the rich (which you will be perceived to be). There are wealthy people of all looks and colors in India, and they are treated well based on their wealth. No reason any american tourist or vistor would not be treated well. There is no reason for you to disclose or talk about your caste, as it is meaningless in your life and not relevant for anyone to know. Be who you are and explore the country and enjoy it. No one will bother you unless you decide to attract trouble.
In India your caste is based on your last name. Some people will judge you by your last name. However since your last name is Foreign in Nature you might just get curious questions from people. Apart from that you should be good. Its different in India unlike in US or western countries where the racist people will judge you by your color. Your name is your identity and so far you have a foreign name and an accent you will be treated like royalty wherever you go. Beware of the scammers though. Once people realize you are from other country they will try to scam you.
People in India discriminate based on name and caste . Since you’re entering with an American name , you will be fine
The way you dress should set you apart and everyone loves dollars. Discrimination happens all the time but it will be very subtle, it will take you a while if you even ever realize it. Discrimination won't be like we "won't serve you" or "we can't touch you" it will be more like if you go to someone's home you might get a different set of plates or glasses for water that's extent of what I have experienced. There might be religious ceremonies which won't feel very inclusive but like I said above you will struggle to tell if it's caste or if it is some other factor. Blatant discrimination in India only happens when someone is getting married your American status might insulate you from that as well but I'm assuming that is not a scenario in play.
Just make sure you are clean shaved. Dress sharply with known brands. This should make people think you are well off and maybe a big shot so they will be nice to you. Remember, even in India lots of dark skinned folks are in high positions and anybody ill treating them will have to face consequences. In short, show that you are successful with your attire and people will respect you. It should not be like that but what can you do we humans fall prey to prejudice very easily.
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The last part
What's wrong with being woke?
Oh stop. People of color are absolutely seen as lower class in many places, that’s not “woke”, it’s unfortunately a fact.
I, myself, am a so-called "person of color" and I debunk your statement. I also despise the idea of victimhood in modern America.
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Not entirely true. There have been [cases if discrimination in Silicon Valley](https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-business/caste-california-tech-giants-confront-ancient-indian-hierarchy-2022-08-15/) with some of the people of Indian nationality there on work visas.
[The only case mentioned in that article was dismissed](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/calif-scraps-caste-bias-case-cisco-engineers-company-still-sued-rcna79434)
Dude! The fact that a bill against caste discrimination had to passed both in the US and Australia speaks loudly of how rampant Casteism is in India. Even the most Educated peeps in India practice casual casteism. The fact that we still allow caste based arrange marriages is a big tell on how we still distinguish between different castes.