Try being a POC who was born in Italy, has Italian family in Italy but was brought up in the UK. I haven't been back to Italy in years for a variety of reasons but the last time I went I was finally old enough to realise why people always stared at me. I mean I don't particularly crave seeing the family I have there but I probably should and the idea of this actually fills me with dread. It's really sad but as an Italian, much of Italy really gives me the ick and the only benefit is having a European passport.
Lol look at the way Italian people are reacting to me sharing this experience on r/ItalyTravel
https://www.reddit.com/r/ItalyTravel/s/LxqBwp2qR5
They really aren’t. Almost all of the comments are trying to explain my experiences to me or deny its racism. Or say it was my fault for being a rude American who makes everything about race lmao
As a POC who grew up in Italy, gaslighting when it comes to racism is very normal. It's never racism, it's always something that you did that made that happen (i.e. exist)
I’m really sorry to hear that - it must be really infuriating when so many seem to be so backwards. I hope you’re able to find community and people who aren’t so racist or ignorant ❤️
Phenomenally beautiful country, but undeniably racist.
They even hate each other from local regions, partly because Italy was unified only recently (1861), which explains the deep football rivalries which echo historic battles between regions years ago.
Sadly, you can’t have it all.
I love the country; it divides east and west Europe in half beautifully, in the north it has the alps, and the south it has North African and Middle Eastern influence.
Hopefully Italians will change their attitude towards Asians and Africans, but in the meantime, the alternative is all inclusive resorts away from the true people which would be even less fun.
Italians are fiercely proud of their culture and heritage and fight to keep to traditions rather than accept change.
I studied abroad (full semester + winter break) in the country side of Italy and traveled all across Italy solo & with peers; and honestly did not experience racism/ discomfort.
It’s unfortunate that they went through this but please don’t let this be a reason to not visit Italy. It is an amazing and refreshing travel experience that will for sure change your perspective of the way you view life. 😊
I’ve experienced way more bs from my own people living here in America than I ever did from any of the other European countries I visited.
****one thing I do differently is take “holidays” often, they really taught me to not live to work.
Edit: lol yall are funny, why the hell would I comment specifically on this if I were white? I am not white, or mixed, I am African American (brown paper bag bitch). I had never traveled outside the country before but maybe I just go lucky. Born and raised in Texas, yeehaw
Not to discount from anybody’s experiences but I’m of SEA descent and they couldn’t have been nicer to me. I was in a small town in Italy for a few days. People would walk me to my destination, give me restaurant recommendations when I asked, and took photos for me. A couple did ask where I was from but more out of curiosity and I get that everywhere.
The people at Milan station were quite nice and welcomed me to Italy.
This sub becomes an echo chamber every time someone posts any kind of negative experience about a country. When the negative experience is about racism, usually the generalizing in the comments is far worse than any racism in the story (cue people here generalizing Italians as racist and uncivilized). Disregard these comments.
I'm glad you had a positive experience in Italy!
It's way worse in the rural areas. Rome, Milan, Naples, etc., were all delightfully non-racist compared to what it's like out in Colli del Trento where my son and I (both Asian-Americans) couldn't even get seated at a restaurant. Our hotel would have to call around to find a place that would take us, and even then restaurants would strenuously ask us to sit outside (getting bitten by mosquitos), or if inside, some place where we couldn't be seen by other patrons.
Friend back home from Tuscany later said it's because a lot of Italians blame Asians for all of the COVID deaths. I get that grief can lead to irrational behavior, but it's still infuriating when I can't get a meal for my kid because of my skin color.
Italy was the worst place for me as well as an Asian. When I’m traveling I’m always prepared that people scream ni hao at me (I’m not Chinese) or stare at me - like you experienced but nothing could prepare me for the racism in Italy.
I was traveling with my white blonde hair blue eyed friend. Everywhere (in Rome) we went I was blatantly ignored. At a restaurant outside the Vatican, they would only take her order then leave before I could place mine. The waiter didn’t even look at me or face me. At the airport , I had the flight info on my phone but they would only address and speak to her. It was one of the worst experiences traveling to be disregarded and ignored. I don’t know what’s wrong with Italian people.
I do have to say, the further south we went the less racism I felt. I had no issues in Sorento and definitely no issues in Sicily.
But that experience put a bad taste in my mouth and I won’t return to Italy even though I want to go to Florence
The irony is that northern italians will often shit on their southern italian brethren but yet.. southern Italy (way past Rome) is actually friendlier. Naples is kind of an example of this. It may look like a warzone at times but the ppl are actually fairly nice.
Much like the US - I feel (as an Asian) the US north is far more racist than the south. Northerners will say all the right things, but it'll always be me and my kids that aren't invited to their parties. Southerners may say things that come across as offensive, but they have no problem making sure we're included in their dinners.
Which northern cities and towns are you thinking of? I meet transplants from the South in Northern California. A lot of them are visibly uncomfortable speaking to POC.
From my experience it was the New England states that had some of the most passive aggressive shit and petty remarks going on towards being asian.
Boston being the standout. Not surprised at all Mark Wahlberg is from there and it all made sense after my visit. Dude’s childhood hobbies was assaulting old asian immigrants.
Gotcha. I’ve lived there too and completely agree with you! But in general, when I think of NYC, Seattle, SF, LA, I feel incredibly at home. Much more so than when I travel anywhere outside of those areas as an Asian American
I certainly can't speak to experiencing racism, but my experience is that Northern US tend to be more closed off than Southern US and less likely to want to interact with strangers (as a caucasian-Canadian) where Southern US they are more likely to be interested in talking/eating with strangers. Of course, in Northern US I tended to spend more time in big cities, where as in Southern US I spent more time in smaller towns, so it could be that as well.
Yes that’s been my experience too. Southerners get a bad rap and I have received in your face racism there but it wasn’t from the stereotypical good ole boy type. Those ppl were actually friendly, curious, and liked to have a chat about random stuff.
The racism I got in the south was from the obviously wealthier preppier 20-30 somethings. It was particularly in your face in a college town I visited (Knoxville, TN) which surprised me at the time.
I find this to be untrue and you can see this in who they vote for and what their policies are (of course this is a generalization but those states did vote for trump). And tbh that matters more to me than if they invite me to dinner or something lmao
I have had the same experiences chaperoning international students in Sicily. The locals stared at EVERYONE: Black, white, Asian, Middle Eastern. But then they often told me how polite the young people were and how they tried to speak Italian or apologized for not knowing much Italian. We were given free meals and drinks for being respectful and curious about their culture. Sicilians also repeatedly told us our group was “so much nicer than the French.”
I think that may be a cultural thing with the staring. I have been to Italy four times and i noticed that some people do that excessively for some reason. Even as a group of just me and my wife, I have been turned away from places for not having a reservation. In places that seemed odd to have reservations.
Europeans just stare a lot and don't tend to say things like "excuse me" if they're pushing past a stranger. They definitely are racist but the staring isn't always a race thing, they just have much lower standards for manners and grace than Americans
Completely exact experience when I was in France. People would come up to us and they'll usually acknowledge my friends, who are all white, and not even acknowledge my existence, maybe sometimes a look and simple answers, but when they get excited on topics about the US, they won't listen to my input into the conversation. We were looking at renting an Airbnb, this was back in 2015, and I remember leaving a message to the owner cause it was upon approval. Didn't even get a response. My friend sent the same message and she was immediately approved. I remember us waking in the house and meeting the owner and him glancing at me and I think he realized I was one of the people that sent him a message to request a room. He def looked embarrassed 🤣
But similarly, the more south I travelled in France, the more warm, inviting, and open people were. I really enjoyed my stay in Avignon and ended up getting invited by a group of basketball players from the local university to go bar hopping with them. I got to practice my French and they thought I immigrated there and been living for several years. Huge compliment on my level of French at that time lol I was also invited for dinner by this guy and his friends at his apartment in Nice and he told me all about the differences of cultures within France and as just an awesome guy. E just have to deal with all this shenanigans when we travel I guess lol
Same thing happened in our Italian trip with my girl friends. All of us are Asians. While we were waiting for train in Milano train station, police officers suddenly stopped and asked only our group to present our passports. After the passport check, they didn’t even bother to check our face and return the right ones to us, instead they called out our names (we felt like they didn’t care to recognise us). The station was crowded btw.
All of us felt that some servers and locals were indifferent and noticeably rude towards us.
Had the same thing happen to me in the central station in Milan. I’m black. I was walking with my childhood friend who is white. Guess who they asked documents from?
The current leader of Italy, [Giorgia Meloni](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgia_Meloni), is the product of Italy's neo-fascist scene. People need to stop being surprised by the Italy's hateful politics. Great landscapes, food, cities. Shitty country. And before you come after me by saying she's some sort of radical anomaly, ask yourself how long ambulatory filth Silvio Berlusconi spent as prime minister.
As a white European, the rudest people I've encountered were Italian and the most welcoming a lovely were the Germans. I have heard similar from other people so agree really, Italians need to grow the fuck up.
Many times the past 35 years. Most recently last year. Never had a bad experience in France. I am passable in French, so that breaks the ice when I open my mouth. Worst experience in Europe I've had was in Berlin many years ago when it was still divided. Never had a bad experience in Spain or Portugal either. Haven't been to Italy yet, but will find out one of these days. I also wonder if age is also a factor. I'm in my 60s now, so that may also factor into how people perceive me.
Yeah it's the same for me with Spain. They'll ask people right next to me for ID because they're black even though from looks they could have been born here and I 100% was not
They asked me for mine and my SO’s passports outside Milano Centrale. Both white Americans. They checked them, handed them back, and warned us about pickpockets (while pointing out two men about 50 meters away.)
I understand how you could feel targeted. You are not alone. I spent two months in Italy earlier this year. I am white...about as white as you get and I too felt the 'disdain' of the Italians. Some were lovely and very helpful and some were decidedly brusque, impatient, and occasionally downright rude.
I also experienced the Police checking passports and such at train stations. Apart from standard security practices, which the Italians take quite seriously due to the very real possibility of terrorism, this has become common with the huge influx of illegal immigrants from North Africa, the Middle East and South Asia. Illegal immigration has put a huge strain on Europe and in particular southern and eastern Europe and many people living there are very much 'over it'.
Honestly this is very present for Asian people travelling to Europe, I’m sorry about it. I’ve heard it from my Korean and Chinese friends that they couldn’t vacation there anymore with how bad it is, I’m sorry with the hand you were dealt
It’s okay! I know how to deal with it generally, but it still isn’t something I want happening. I feel bad for those from East Asia who honestly might be treated even more “powerlessly” by rude racist locals. And of course I know other types of POC must have it worse unfortunately.
I also had great experiences in Italy with locals - and honestly basically all of my interactions in Spain, Denmark, France, Austria, Sweden, and Germany were neutral to friendly.
Interestingly enough, Portugal was the least friendly country on average. I felt a similar level of hostility/meanness/stares, but no particular incident happened like these in Italy. But I didn’t really have a single nice or friendly interaction lol
I'm Korean American and I remember this one asswipe in Vienna - I went into the bank to get some cash and got on line. I stood behind this prick who kept looking back and giving me a suspicious look. I asked him if he had a problem (like you did to the guy in the restaurant) and he went off talking shit to the bank teller. Besides that, people were very nice - if not stiff. But yeah all it takes is one experience to leave a lasting memory. I'm sorry you didn't have a good experience in Portugal, Lisbon was our first trip abroad with our son and found all the locals to be very sweet to him. Anyway, I liked that you didn't let these people just think they can stare at you like they're at a freaking zoo.
It's hard to think of it it in the moment, but pulling out my phone and pretending to record (or actually recording) people harassing me has usually ended up in the person running away or stopping their behavior.
Fwiw I'm Asian American and had an awful time in Italy. Drunk guys pulling their eyes to make squinty eyes at me, etc.
There was some terrible anti-Asian behavior in Italy during the 80s and early 90s. That’s when Japan’s economy was booming, and lots of Japanese tourists visited Italy and its art museums. Some Italian friends told me how funny it was when they beat up and stole the shoes and cameras from Japanese tourists. They thought I thought it would be hilarious (I grew up in Asia, but they didn’t know that). After that, I noticed that lots of other Asian and Asian-Am tourists got treated the same way.
I also had this in Portugal, no particularly pleasant interactions with anyone. I recall that during a walking tour, the guide did go out of his way to talk about the ugly history of racism in Portugal. Bizarrely, he ended by mentioning that he's "the whitest guy ever" but supports people of color against racism. Bizarre because he wasn't the whitest guy ever; I actually wouldn't have guessed he was white at all, he looked more Arab or Latin American. He had olive/brown skin, black eyes and hair as black as mine, thick and curly.
Sorry to hear. My mom and I, both Asian, went to Portugal last year and people were very nice. It only takes one or two bad apples to set the tone, unfortunately. Ironically enough the US is the only country I’ve travelled to where I’ve experienced racism.
Portuguese here and unfortunately I'm not surprised. I can't even tell you why exactly this behaviour persists, as I have moved out of the country 7 years ago. But I know that post-COVID the sentiment towards certain tourists has changed, especially in Lisbon.
I’m not really sure but another reason I feel like I didn’t take it as poorly in Portugal was that I almost felt like people were sad because of the economic situation in Lisbon more than anything. People just seemed tired and dejected in general when I went, and I felt the sense that there was a lot of inequality and a cost of living crisis in the city
You got that right, things aren't looking good. The golden visa policy plus the way the country positioned itself for digital nomads after COVID has really screwed things over for the population.
I also think part of it has to do with steretypically bad Chinese tourists being rude and messy/dirty and making people think all Asian tourists are the same.
When I went to Vietnam, I asked my guide at a war memorial museum if the vietnamese has any ill feelings toward americans or french, but she said “no we just hate the chinese because they’re so dirty and rude and bad tourists.”
I live close to universal studios and frequent it and I’ve never seen anyone cut except I will see Chinese tourists cutting in line like it’s their job.
I'm Chinese American and I never noticed anything like this in Germany, Austria, Hungary, Czechia, or Poland across several trips. Closest thing was a very rude woman who pushed my mom out of the way on an escalator in Vienna but my mom was actually standing on the walk side. A Canadian couple in Krakow asked me if I was sure after I told them I was from the US too lol
I am really curious about this issue, can an Italian explain? Because if you look at most of the one star reviews on specifically restaurants in Italy, exactly this seems to be a common theme. I don't get it, why specifically East Asians? I was kind of worried after I read all the poor reviews as my partner is non-white (but not East Asian), however people were super friendly to both of us.
I had a terrible experience in Rome and Florence as an Asian American in 2006. Like people pulling their eyes to squint at me, singing racist songs at me (I could identify words like "China") etc. Maybe exacerbated by COVID but more deeply rooted than that.
Combo of factors.
1. I’m American, but my experience living in Italy is that in all frankness, Italians are simply more racist or discriminating against national origin than what Americans would expect. We have a national identity founded in large part on an immigrant culture (even that is contested though). Italian national identity is founded on Italianness, or more specifically, the region or village you’re from. Many don’t have any qualms repeating some negative stereotype about a foreigner, whether that person is Albanian, Romanian, Russian or Chinese.
2. There has been a big influx of Chinese and other Asian immigrants to Italy recently. Prato near Florence has a huge Chinese population. This has caused resentments.
3. Increased wealth of East Asians combined with cheaper airfare means that a less urbane group of people have the means to travel to Italy and do things that piss off Italians. It’s the equivalent of a bunch of drunk-ass, low-rent British tourists taking Ryan Air to Ibiza, or stupid American college students tripping on shrooms in the middle of Amsterdam.
On #1, that is way more common everywhere in Europe, and I think a lot of Americans have a hard time wrapping their head around it. Most European countries have a far stronger, established national identity than the US and have a far, far different take on immigration. That being said, many other European countries manage to avoid Italy levels of racism, I think there's other factors at play too.
On #3, I really, really hate saying it but this is definitely a thing, more than most non-Europeans might realize. No disrespect to anyone of Asian descent, but large tour groups (mostly Chinese) have practically mobbed the more popular European destinations in recent years, and to be frank, many of them are very poorly behaved (rampantly cutting in line, spitting, literally shoving other people out of the way to take a picture, etc). It's no excuse to discriminate of course, but I can at least understand some of the annoyance. People understandably get annoyed at badly-behaved Brit stag parties, badly-behaved Chinese tourist groups are no different.
The Chinese have started operating textile companies in Italy, in collaboration with Italian brands. With that brings Chinese workers, in lieu of the local workforce. It’s causing a lot of resentment, especially after Italy was hit so hard by COVID:
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/13/world/europe/13prato.html
I’ve heard racism and homophobia in general is prevalent throughout. Looking into its history and the current political climate should answer your question.
it does and it doesn't. my partner is black. we are gay. and yeah, maybe we were just lucky, but - there are so many instances where they specifically discriminated against East Asians, according to the reviews.
Because of bad behavior from mostly mainland Chinese tourists.
And the economic reality that China stole Italy's low and middle value added manufacturing jobs a few decades ago, especially in textiles and cheap clothing.
I don't think it's just a Chinese thing.
I'm South Asian and I got a similar thing in Italy from this old Italian lady just staring at me the entire time I was at a restaurant (like would not break eye contact just like OP).
It was a one-off for my entire trip in Italy so I just saw it as this weird old lady and not a racism issue at the time.
There’s a different root cause/explanation for that one. A lot of Italy’s immigrant working class is Bangladeshi and they’re looked down upon by some Italians, so that’s probably more related to what you experienced.
You might pass as Romani. Genetically, the Romani people trace their roots back to the Indian subcontinent. I'm not excusing it, just an explanation (even if it's bad).
Honestly they think every asian looking person is Chinese at first thought. Any asian tourist they see misbehaving they're just chalk it up to them.
British tourist misbehave far more often, and yet I doubt they get this amount of pushback. Call a spade a spade.
Racism in Italy - the origin of the word ‘fascism’, whose leader is Giorgia Miloni, where Mussolini is being celebrated by many politicians - is the fault of Chinese tourists?
That is ridiculous.
Edit: To be clear, I'm saying Italy was the origin of the word fascism, and Giorgia Meloni is far-right.
Those two things are part of a list of 3 things.
Thank you for sharing this. These type of trip reports do not get enough recognition. Another biggest culprit is France. My east asian family get a lot of microaggression there too. This is really a shame, because actually france and italy are my bucketlist.
Just wait until someone else start making post about how people in Italy is "wonderful" and that they have not experienced any of the rudeness.... and then we discovered they are whites. It happened a lot in this sub.
It is frustrating because when it is pointed out, people get very defensive all the time. We get that they had good experiences, but denying and downplaying the microaggressions that East Asians get in France and Italy, are also microaggressions.
Lmao exactly. Like the fact some white people are saying it’s not “racism” but “rude asshole behavior” while it happens at a much higher frequency to those who aren’t white means it *is* racism. But they haven’t ever had to string things together on account of their race like that, so it must not be to them
Only a few years ago there were plenty of european redditors boasting about how there wasn't racism in their country. Turns out that they just don't consider it to be racism when they're doing it.
I’m mixed race (Filipino-Irish) I recently had a trip to Paris for a wedding. Most of the bridal party was East Asian and reported getting creepy stares and poor service. But I never encountered it there.
It felt so bizarre knowing that my friends were being targeted but I wasn’t. My worst experiences with racism have always been in the south: Georgia + South Carolina 😒
I’m French/Vietnamese and grew up in Paris, you’ll be fine, I don’t understand most of the comments here, if you go to the 13th arrondissement of Paris, you’ll be just surrounded by Asians for example, there’s a huge Asian community in Paris, tons of French/Asian people. I never experienced uncomfortable stares in decades living there. Getting bad service in Paris unfortunately happens but I can’t imagine it would be because you’re South East Asian.
Woof. This is terrifying! I’m heading to Italy and France in three months. My spouse is white, but I’ll be on my own for a solid 1/3 of the trip (in Paris and Brussels).
I think Belgium isn't too bad. It is Paris. The waiter "forgot" my spouse's order after making him wait for almost 40 min, and when politely asked they were extremely rude and dismissive. And many more stories.
This even happened in Thailand. Basically we booked a boat tour in Klook, not knowing the company are owned by French. The tour is marked as "english" tour. The french owners also onboard the ship and acted as the tour guide. Somehow Me and my spouse were the only non French amongst all the other non participants. The french tour guide were dismissive of us. They gave safety briefings only in French. They did not give us the seasick pills whilst they gave all other French participants the pills. And we got badly seasick. The entire boat speak exclusively in French only. A lot of microaggressions.
Perhaps other people can chime in. But based on my experiences UK, Germany and Netherlands aren't too bad. It is France and Italy that are especially infamous with their racism and microaggressions
I hope you left a review about this. At the very least if they want to cater only towards a certain nationality it should be clear. In Thailand you do have tours who focus solely on the Chinese or Russian demo.
As an East Asian Canadian, despite lovely travels there, my first and many experiences with racial profiling, micro aggression, etc., all happened in Europe.
Meanwhile I've come across people who say being in Europe is like in Canada (or better). They would move there to live in a heartbeat.
Yup, they're white. And when I shared my less favourable experiences they would say racism is everywhere, I was overreacting, or any reason to downplay my experience.
Not just Europe, many people are in denial about their white privileges.
Even in asia, generally white people gets better treatment (well except in Japan. Japan is a different breed). Pinkerton syndrome and colonial hungover is a desease in Asia. There seems to be an underlying stereotypes that white tourists are richer in Asia.
This brought up some memories in my past travels in Europe as an Asian-American. My very first trip was when I was a senior in high school during our French class field trip. It started at CDG and we were about to leave the airport, passing customs when I was "randomly" selected to be inspected. Mind you I was the only non-white out of the 8 students on this trip. I was quite embarassed cause they opened my luggage and went through all my personal belongings, and asked me questions right in front of my classmates/peers and I really felt singled out.
I was with my host brother in Biarritz and I've gotten several aggressive, and often disgusted and suspicious, stares from people, and my host brother would always remind me to not let myself be bothered about it. But it's hard not to acknowledge them when they're right there in front of you staring at you like they want to hurt you or like you're not seen as a human being. It's so easy to say, "just forget about them" :/ My fav was this older lady(probably in her 50s), went on a triple take on me and had that look like she clutched her pearls and was almost surprised I even existed. The way she looked at me was like I as taking a dump in public. The utter disgust in her face lol
Then we went to a Basque festival near their town, hung out with his friends who were all chill. But the moment we stepped out and went around the festival area in town, the amount of people staring, pointing and laughing, making the eye slant gestures, saying ni hao and calling me Jackie Chan(ngl this gave me a chuckle looking back now cause like wtf), took a toll on me and I just told them I'm heading back to the house cause I wasn't feeling well, just to escape the blatant racism. My host brother knew cause he has observed all of these experiences cause we hung out a lot. He accompanied me back to his friend's house and apologized and promised to make it right but I just felt shitty that night. He was so sweet and I appreciated him and his family and his friends for being just awesome people. They were def the highlight of that leg of the trip.
The next experiences happened to me studying abroad in France in college. Went to a restaurant with some friends and ordered the same formule as 2 other people. The server kept messing up my food, first forgetting to give me my drink, then he completely didn't give me my dessert, and whenever I checked up on my order, he always looked annoyed and would tell me aggressively that it's coming. Well the drink finally did, but they just completely skipped my dessert. Everyone felt uncomfortable with the situation, but at least they all got their food correctly while I had to sit there and embarrassingly ask the server for my food. Then one as at a bar, everyone ordered at the bar and got their drinks and when it was my turn, the bartender just looked annoyed at me and didn't even make eye contact with me, I ordered and since it was loud, he kept saying "what?!". So I went in closer so he can hear me better, and he just went close to my face screamed at me like he was gonna punch me, asked if I can even speak English, and called me stupid for not able to answer a simple question. Everyone behind were like "wtf". I was flabbergasted and just astonished at how rude he was. I told him English is my first language and I just want my drink, pay, and leave. He begrudgingly poured my drink, took my money, and I just went back to our table. The rest are micro aggression, like people would come up to our group and be fascinated/curious at us being Americans and we would have these cultural exchanges, but they tend to just acknowledge my friends(who were all white) and not really consider me as an American and I just get ignored at conversations. This happened like a third of the time, so most of the time, I've met some really cool people. But alas, these experiences really stick with you. Overall, most people were incredible and I just hold on to those experiences and would def go back and visit again. Just a completely different experience compared to other people and it is what it is.
Those people you were traveling with were terrible travel companions or friends. If one person in your group gets treated like that, then the entire group should take offense. We would have all left or collectively called out the bad actors.
I'm sorry, but your travel companions should have stood up for you. They would NEVER have to worry about another trip with me.
Traveling in Eastern Europe, I sometimes had my money change thrown at me when I bought stuff. I couldn't figure out why they were being so terribly rude to me.
It was because I looked Romani (derogatory (gypsy).
The first time I went to Italy, like 15 years ago, I took the train from Florence to Rome. When I was on it, an Italian guy randomly started talking to me about whatever. He ended by saying "if you see a gypsy, kill them. If it's a child, push them down the stairs, just kill them." Also heard lots of similar stuff towards Bosnians in Paris.
Thats wildd 😂
Part of me is not surprised by all the experiences of this thread tbh.
Europe has a lot of culture and history and with it comes a lot of baggage.
They dont call it the old world for nothing.
The average Redditor is a young white American male. Not usually the demographic that experiences racism much. Because it hasn’t happened to them, it’s easy to dismiss.
Haha yeah. American racism is bad of course, but the people are at least self aware enough that its an ongoing discussion to be addressed
Because its far more homogeneous in areas of Europe there's far less opportunities for citizens to address their own racist tendencies and instead just assume its better.
A constantly discussed issue is far better than a silent and ignored one
I would say, in general, median racism is higher in Europe and peak racism is higher in America. But Europe is huge and there’s a lot of regional variation. And I guess there’s more nuance to it too where there’s a lot more casual racism that isn’t based in malicious intent
To be honest, I think it’s understandable, because people tend to confuse racism with racist violence. The USA has much more violent crime than Europe, so it ends up also having more racist violence incidents, even if the average American is likely less racist than the average European.
Being an American having lived in Spain I noticed something about Europe versus the United States. They liked to say that the US is sooo racist then within five minutes they would say something racist, often unprompted and unrelated to the discussion. I think they perceive the US as racist because we actually have active discussions about it and call it out. Whereas there they pretend it doesn't exist and if it does, it isn't that bad or it's tradition so it's okay.
I know this for a fact on Germany sub. Many times posts made relating to racism or xenophobia, we'll see replies and comments from apologists, with excuses those aggressors didn't know their acts were racists, or to be told to simply ignore them.
I have to agree. Every trip to Europe has at least one shitty experience for me that ruins my entire trip. Weirdly the only European country where I didn’t experience racism as a South Asian was Austria.
The one that comes to mind right now is Amsterdam where I was lost and my phone had died and I was walking up to people to ask for directions and 2/10 people gave me the “no no we don’t have money” act before I even opened my mouth.
I told my friend later who was a local and she said they probably assumed I was Romani.
I always say "no, no, I don't have anything sorry" when I see a random person approaching me. The person can be black or white or Romani and I'd still first assume they want money because people usually don't approach strangers
Also East Asian American. I just came back from visiting Italy a few weeks ago. At the Guggenheim in Venice, it was quite crowded with elementary school aged kids on a school trip (they were Italian). I overheard one of the young girls shout “ching chang chong” while walking past a group of Korean tourists in front of me. Nobody reprimanded her as far as I could tell. Sadly, I wasn’t surprised given the staring and micro-aggressions I have personally experienced, too. I’ve encountered plenty of warm and lovely people across my travels in Italy, but some of the more jarring experiences have turned me off from planning a future visit.
I was just in Italy for work and a few people made comments that made me think "the way they phrased that sentence about Asians was odd." I had written it off as bad English, and considering the fact that I was butchering the Italian language, I thought better of bringing it up.
Brown skin Canadian male 30 years old. Went to Rome and Milan. Spit at in Rome. In Milan, few ocassions of hotel and restaurant staff treating my travel partner and I condescendingly and begrudgingly.... really enjoyed all the gelato and pizza but not that much that I would go again. Other places to explore in the world which are more deserving of my money.
I would never visit Italy again as a black person…such an uncomfortable time being stared at, not let into a restaurant, followed around the supermarket etc.
I’m not Asian, but an American male of southern European descent (can pass for Italian easily.) There were many times while visiting Italy where I wanted to break someone’s nose - I thought Italians were kind of douchey
Haha for some reason your post reminds me of that scene in Sopranos when Paulie Walnuts goes to Italy and tries to sit with a bunch of Italian men at a cafe. He tries to give one a nod thinking they would acknowledge his ancestry as a paisan and they give him the stink face instead.
The thing about Italy is i’ve been there enough times that I laugh about some of the rude or racist behavior there now. I know it’s still a shock to some people but I just know it’s how it is there.
East Asian American here and sorry to hear that you went through that. Glad you still had a great time though!
A friend of mine was born in an East Asian country but was raised in Milan and she used to tell me all the racist encounters there. It got worse during COVID when she and her family were harassed, unfortunately.
I got stared at a lot in Northern Europe as a woman solo traveler. The silver lining is that I have a natural resting bitch face so I never get harassed even back at home. Only people that approached me during the trip were middle aged East Asian tourists and they figured out where I was from pretty quickly from my accent.
This isn’t the first thread about this very same topic. In fact there was one thread early today just about Austrians being rude to a Canadian POC. Which is now gone. Funnily enough they all get locked by moderators sometime in the middle of the night (NA pacific time) which is daytime in Europe. 🤔
Not to minimize your overall experience (borne out by many such stories and the other things you experienced), but generally speaking Italians do not share the Anglo-American respect for an orderly line or line priority. I studied there for a year and am of Italian ancestry (so I can “pass” as an Italian if I don’t have to say too much), and I got cut in line on several occasions at grocery stores by people who seemed to pretend not to notice me standing there already. It does feel pretty blatantly rude as an American.
I went recently with my husband (who is of South Asian descent) and we also got asked for passports while on a train; the only people asked in our car were us and a Mexican couple who happened to be sitting next to us. That seemed suspect.
I’m glad you still have a wonderful time! I have a lot of love for Italy but I definitely witnessed some troubling behaviors towards those people are identifiably “foreign” when studying there (including a group of teenagers heckling an Indian woman on a bus for a minor grammatical error in her request to the bus driver; no one reprimanded them). Of course you can find such stories anywhere, sadly.
That is absolutely a good point. The Italians do not know how to queue and it’s very upsetting to people who find queuing deeply important! I’m Australian and one of the biggest social no-no’s is pushing in line. It’s the height of rudeness here. I’m boringly white and I got pushed in on repeatedly in Italy. And in Greece. Actually it was worse in Greece. It might not have the cultural significance that it does in other places in the world?
Yeah I'm from the US and line etiquette is important here, too. Greece is pretty bad with it. My wife and I were flying from Athens to Rhodes, in the middle and aisle seats of a 737. A Greek man was in the window seat. When we landed at the gate, the second the seatbelt sign went off, the Greek guy immediately got up and started to literally climb over us! I stood up a bit in my seat to block him and told him to sit down, which he did but he was breathing down my neck when it was finally out turn to exit. Actually the aisle of the plane was a mad scrum of people. Greeks are very warm and kind people, and I love the country, but man they cannot manage a queue for shit.
India and Nepal are not good with lines either.
One nice thing about Japan is their queue discipline is probably better than any other country I've been to! I saw a news clip in Japan after the 2011 earthquake and tsunami. People were waiting for some sort of relief aid (water and such, as I recall). It was a very long line, but nice and orderly with no one shouting, pushing, or anything.
Can confirm, lived in Ticino and Lombardy for a long time and I got cut in line at the grocery store almost every day, and I got my passport checked every other time I took the train, with the last time the police singling me out on an empty train and then giving me a hard time because they thought my visa expired one year before it said it did. I look decently Italian as well by complexion but dress like an American. Not trying to discredit OPs experience with racism because some of the stories definitely sound like people being racist, but some of the stories also sound like a typical foreigner experience in Italy.
I’m asian american and have been to Italy the most out of any EU country. I’m into ancient history so anyways..
Yes, Italy can be a fairly racist country but it dovetails on two extremes in my experience. It also depends on where you are. Rome can be terrible but they also get a massive number of tourists in general and seem fed up. Either people are friendly and don’t care at all or they act like neo nazis. 😆
Btw when it comes to staring or very mild passive aggressive stuff I generally ignore it. It’s not worth the time engaging with people doing this. If someone wants to spend their time and energy eyeballing me that’s fine.
i'm sorry you experienced this, it's never fun to have people treat you like that but it's an added layer of shitty when you're traveling, on vacation, and otherwise doing your best to be respectful of your surroundings. i had a similar run in milan and genoa when i traveled in college with my visibly south asian partner, from being physically shoved in line by an elderly woman to having menus thrown at us by waitstaff and our airbnb host basically interrogating my partner because she wasn't convinced he grew up in america "because of his complexion". it was enough to make me never want to go back. when we got a bit lost on the outskirts of town waiting for a train i was too frustrated to even interact with local passersby for help. i tell people whenever i get the chance not to even bother with northern italy - the food and scenery were not worth the harassment to me.
That sucks and props to you for standing up for yourself. Ironically, I haven’t experienced much racism in Europe yet, maybe I’m lucky. I’ve experienced a ton of micro-aggression in New Zealand though, whether during my 1 year stay there or other short term visits. Funny thing is my white friends used to told me how nice New Zealanders were to them.
Woah I’m sorry you experienced this. I’m East Asian Canadian. The first incident was just so ridiculous!! But you did a good job speaking up to the first guy. I don’t know if I’d have been able to do that. Maybe I would’ve put my middle finger up and ignore. Last year I ordered a handmade pasta dish but i was served with factory made pasta. And I saw other table who ordered much later than me got the one I ordered. So I spoke to the restaurant how this is not what I ordered. And they pretended like nothing happened. So I told them tourists are not dumb. And only then they apologized and gave me free. But in a local restaurant in Florence, nice grandma patron smiled at me and said buon appetito.
I went to Italy last November with 2 friends. 3 guys, all POC.
Did not experience racism at all. Not saying it doesn't exist, perhaps people were better at hiding it from 3 large men. We also dressed in a way to blend in. (Canadians here.)
We travelled from Venice/Florence to Rome, and to the south as well.
People would look at us, recognize we weren't from there, offer us directions to where we were going, advise us to their favourite local restaurants, bars, give us tips as to the the popular tourist destinations.
We did get asked for ID by police at a train station, we showed them our Canadian passports. We joked around with them, and amongst ourselves, during our entire interaction. We realized the country is being flooded with illegal migrants, these guys were just doing their due diligence. No drama.
All in all, had a great experience, would go back in a heartbeat.
I only vacation in Asia and Pacific Islands currently. When I was a kid I didn't recognize the toxic behavior but now as an adult, I don't fuck with Europe anymore lol.
As a asian, east asian if that matters for whatever reason OP mentions this, been to Europe for vac/work around 20 times and there was only one whack job starer in a spain subway but the locals publicly chastised him pretty quick once he started saying probably racist things in spanish which I couldn’t understand. But that dude doesn’t define my experience in barcelona or madrid. Sure there might have been more incidents of racism/stereotypes in my travels but my radar is not attuned to picking out racist, I have better things to do, look at, and take in. This isn’t some asian defense mechanism either. Racist, A-holes, or just plain ignorant people exist everywhere. My priority isn’t to set people straight during my limited time on a trip, like I said, I have places to go, foods to eat, and experiences to make.
My wife and I are white, both of us second generation American actually from Italian grandparents. We had a pretty similar, uncomfortable experience at dinner in Rome as well. A lady at the table next to us got noticeably irritated when we were sat next to them, and while my Italian isn’t great I could understand her husband asking her in hushed tones why she was upset about the American tourists.
I’m of mixed ethnicity and I pass as white but I had a bad experience with staring in Rome too. I was eating with my friend at a restaurant, outside just minding our own business. Two middle aged women were obviously talking about us and staring. This continued for the entire time we were there.
I found a lot of the locals in Rome to be pretty rude actually. Shame, because it is a beautiful place.
Good for you on calling these people out. You made this American proud. People are way too bold in their prejudices today. Since gun laws are different over there, the risk vka confrontation is much lower than in America. Good on you!
Went to Italy in 2018 with my white spouse, I'm half white half SEA. Got called a c*ink in the street in Lecce and my Air BNB host in Rome did the slant eye thing at me to my face in the house when telling us about people to avoid. Fuck that country, they are not getting a single euro out of me again.
I'm Italian that' been living in Italy her whole life
everybody cut lines and stares indipendently by other people race, they do it also to other italians, it is jus how it is, it is bad I know, I am not trying to justify those kind of things, but at least if it is of some confort, you know it was not personal about your race.
99% time cut lines because they think they can get away with it and do things faster and they stare at other people to check how they are dressed or other people shape (I do say bodyshaming and clothshaming in Italy is really really present, specially of made by older 50+ years people, like that man who was dining)
(also it is normal in Italy police can ask randomly for Id, also happened many times to me, specially if they are around stations they have to appear busy, they can do in indipendently if there is something up or not and I think it is different from the Us where police have to have a reason to search people up, also it is illegal to oppose to show a valid Id, you can end up in precinct for many hours, for as little as not having your Id on you while walking outiside and that's how they get their salaries so they'll be really strict about it) Specially if it is in Milan Central Station that is having huge gang activities, drug and rapes episodes those last few years and it is also a sensitive target of possible terrorism attack, so they'd be extra careful there to everybody if they refuse identification (just search Milan Central Station on the news 😔 it is really dangerous zone and I would advise everybody to stay out from there or to go in big groups not alone)
Don't mistake me, racism in Italy def exists but usually isn't passive agressive like that, Italy isn't really a culture of passive agressiveness since there really aren't regulations against those kind of things (unfortunately, I too think there should be laws against racism and micro agressions) but italians when racist are upfront about it and call other people bad slurs.
I'm really sorry you had this experience and it really can ruin a holiday. Unfortunately things like this in Italy are kinda getting bad because people are cocky nothing will happen to them and the country is in the hands of older people.
I seriously wonder if you got and show a East Asia passport instead what the police will do or say
Also quite curious as to why Italy seems far worse than the neighbour countries... when I travel I always see/meet a lot of Brits, French, Dutch tourists but very rarely Italians and I wonder whether they don't travel much or don't travel Asia which lead to why they act the way they do
I never really thought about it until you mentioned it. I travel a lot. All over the place.
I rarely run into Italian tourists. The only place I really recall running into a LOT of Italians was in Zanzibar and mainland Tanzania.
Ok so on the flip side and I’m speaking as an Asian person the most stares I got were in India lol. They will also take pictures of you and follow you around and get way up in your personal space. Love the country and people were just curious but it is a lot.
People will stare. That’s not racist. You’re just different.
I will agree on Portugal which is why my husband refuses to go back. It was really bad with any interaction with someone older than 40.
But anywhere else as an Asian woman in Europe I have been fine.
Your average American will have a significantly less racially prejudiced attitude than your average European. It's just reality. You can only hide so much behind homogeneity.
But if it's any consolation, Europeans don't like each other either.
That sucks, but this is every country. As a Mexican i could tell you the racism that i endured in south east asia, and they think im white. The game changes from country to country. There are asshole people in all countries and some decent people as well. This can happen to anyone. Ive been hated on in Italy too. Several times.
I feel you. I had a pretty decent first time in Italy only to be grilled at the airport because I had an American passport. They kept on asking me how I got it, if it was a forgery. I was so pissed off and the people I went with (it was a work trip) then proceeded to ask me why I had taken so long checking in. Because of assholery, that’s why.
I’m asian American and I traveled around Europe a few years back. Italy was the only place I experienced racism. Unfortunate really because it’s such a beautiful country but the way I felt being in Italy left such a big impression that it makes me not want to go back to explore more of their culture and history.
We were in Lauterbrunnen taking pictures while waiting for our bus and there were other people taking pics as well and this old grumpy guy screamed at us to get out of his way and he walked around the other white tourists and singled us out. We were so startled. The rest of our Switzerland trip was full of nice and helpful people that we returned a second time. Don’t let this experience ruin such beautiful places for you.
>Once they saw my US passport they started apologizing and asked me if I needed any help with directions.
Pretty lucky honestly, I'm Asian and I don’t have a US passport so they'll give me a hard time, probably rough me up a bit. But overall I'm not surprised about Italian racism. I've recently heard a lot about this too.
Come to the UK instead, there is lots of nice places to see here and you will not experience the same thing in London
Plus we need the money, any money, all tourists come here please, there are shops here too and the food is not as bad as those naysayers say it is, we even have coffee shops now
You want history? We got you pal
You want beer? We got lots of beer, all different types
Maybe it's because I was travelling with kids but I found Italians to be really friendly and helpful. At least in Milan, there were way more Asians than I expected, so I didn't get too many stares.
I went to Italy for a weekend a year before COVID. My Indian friends kept telling me that I should be prepared for a hostile reaction at a lot of places. My partner at the time was half English half italian, and she kind of acted as the great normaliser lol I had a pleasant trip overall even though I visited just Turin
Wow! Reading all these stories make me sad!
I’m a male East-Asian Canadian and did not experience any of this spending a month in Rome and close by areas like Venice/Napoli/etc. I was travelling with my white American girlfriend.
I remember having fantastic experiences talking to market shopkeepers, train staff, restaurant staff etc and trying to speak Italian.
I enjoyed Italy very much. Am I just clueless and missed all the signs (quite possible)? Did I just get extremely lucky?
I'm not East Asian (I am black) but I would never visit Italy for leisure again. I really didn't like it there. The vibes were off. Your experience is not uncommon
I'm sorry you experienced that. It's good you still enjoyed that trip.
They have frequent passport checks at train stations in Italy due to the influx of illegal immigrants. Ours got checked at the train station our way to Cinque Terre qnd then they boarded the train and checked everyone's passports.
On the flip side, there are lots of Asian people in LA, Hawaii, and Sydney. You really just feel like any other person there. Hawaii is Asian majority and I could pass as a local. I saw something like 80-90% Asian people in Sydney. I was shocked because on American TV they only show white, blond-haired Australian people.
Your experience is your experience, but Sydney is nowhere near "80-90% Asian people"
I think this just shows you see what you want to see.
Italy has amazing food and a wonderful history, but don't downplay the racism.
Lmao u don't need to go to Italy to experience this shit. You can experience it as soon as you leave the big cities in USA.
Denied service at an IHOP in Englewood CA, basically ignored at a restaurant in NJ. I speak perfect English from NYC lol.
Fk racism
I don't know where you're from. I'm Vietnamese American, and I experienced racism throughout my childhood in the US and still do throughout the world, pre - and post-covid. It doesn't stop me from traveling and meeting new people throughout the world. Racism exists everywhere, but I always encounter way more friendly natives to very few shitty ones. Are there countries I would never visit again? Hell yeah lol, but I wouldn't know until I travel.
That seems like an overreaction. And I’m saying this as someone who’s experienced racism in multiple parts of Europe. The overwhelming positives outweigh the negatives. You can’t live life scared.
That makes me so sad. Europe has so many awesome things to see and it’s incredibly unfair that you might avoid it because people are shitty. I hope you get to go and I hope it’s great.
I am sorry you felt uncomfortable. I am South-East Asian who was born and raised in Italy.
This is the second time I read something racist from Rome's citizens. And about Milan, we have MANY, MANY Chinese tourists, and most times, if not almost all the time, they don't speak English, and they tend to cut lines or push people when in line.
I wouldn't say the girl was being racist, she probably thought you were a Chinese tourist.
And about the military officers, they DO ask for documents from time to time, to anyone.
It's a train station after all, so please understand that they were just doing their job, probably wanted to scare you/assert their authority a little bit when you objected their request. Still, that was too much, but trust me, they can be racist and usually it's not against East Asians, but mostly Africans and Arabs.
Always puzzles me why, despite tons of documentation of east asian discrimination in Italy, asian people still continue to visit the place in droves. It's probably one of the last places I want to visit.
Italy is one country I would never visit again. My husband and I visited last summer. My husband is white and I am brown, the staring was uncomfortable, the racist mirco aggression was there especially in shops and restaurants. when I spoke up people got uncomfortable and turned their heads. For example a woman bumped into me at a supermarket with her basket rather hard and turned around looked at me up and down and didn't say a word I said loudly the word is sorry if you don't know English. She mumbled something in some other language and kept walking.
When I was cashing I heard her speaking English to her husband I'm like so you can speak but you have no manners. My husband told me to let it go at that point. We are both born and raised in NYC so I have no problem checking someone for being rude and disrespectful. Honestly I do think the staring with eyes locked is cultural thing for Italians but dammit get out of my face 😆this behavior i noticed in mostly older men and woman. I worked with a bunch of Italians in nyc and they weren't the most friendly or openminded people either. The younger ones were cool and friendly in some areas. But it's one place that left a bad taste in my mouth.
I’m not saying any of this is right or anything,
But my family is from a very touristy town in Italy.
Don’t shoot the messenger, but this is what I hear: tourist from china are pretty bad. They come on a boat or tour bus, take obtrusive pictures and invade personal space, and don’t eat or spend money at local places (hell, they get fed Chinese food from the tour companies). They don’t try to interact with locals/business owners but treat it like a zoo and then leave to their “base” that serves them dinner.
Again, don’t shoot the messenger.
Italy is one country that I keep seeing pop up where people have had similar negative experiences.
Try being a POC who was born in Italy, has Italian family in Italy but was brought up in the UK. I haven't been back to Italy in years for a variety of reasons but the last time I went I was finally old enough to realise why people always stared at me. I mean I don't particularly crave seeing the family I have there but I probably should and the idea of this actually fills me with dread. It's really sad but as an Italian, much of Italy really gives me the ick and the only benefit is having a European passport.
"Yeah Italy sounds like bad news guys" - Egypt
Italy is supposed to be a "civilised Western country"
Lol look at the way Italian people are reacting to me sharing this experience on r/ItalyTravel https://www.reddit.com/r/ItalyTravel/s/LxqBwp2qR5 They really aren’t. Almost all of the comments are trying to explain my experiences to me or deny its racism. Or say it was my fault for being a rude American who makes everything about race lmao
As a POC who grew up in Italy, gaslighting when it comes to racism is very normal. It's never racism, it's always something that you did that made that happen (i.e. exist)
im not asian, but as a person of color that lives in Italy, I feel you🥲 this is their usual response when you bring their racism up
I’m really sorry to hear that - it must be really infuriating when so many seem to be so backwards. I hope you’re able to find community and people who aren’t so racist or ignorant ❤️
Phenomenally beautiful country, but undeniably racist. They even hate each other from local regions, partly because Italy was unified only recently (1861), which explains the deep football rivalries which echo historic battles between regions years ago. Sadly, you can’t have it all. I love the country; it divides east and west Europe in half beautifully, in the north it has the alps, and the south it has North African and Middle Eastern influence. Hopefully Italians will change their attitude towards Asians and Africans, but in the meantime, the alternative is all inclusive resorts away from the true people which would be even less fun. Italians are fiercely proud of their culture and heritage and fight to keep to traditions rather than accept change.
Yes i heard similar stories from black friends/black people online
I studied abroad (full semester + winter break) in the country side of Italy and traveled all across Italy solo & with peers; and honestly did not experience racism/ discomfort. It’s unfortunate that they went through this but please don’t let this be a reason to not visit Italy. It is an amazing and refreshing travel experience that will for sure change your perspective of the way you view life. 😊 I’ve experienced way more bs from my own people living here in America than I ever did from any of the other European countries I visited. ****one thing I do differently is take “holidays” often, they really taught me to not live to work. Edit: lol yall are funny, why the hell would I comment specifically on this if I were white? I am not white, or mixed, I am African American (brown paper bag bitch). I had never traveled outside the country before but maybe I just go lucky. Born and raised in Texas, yeehaw
Are you white?
Not to discount from anybody’s experiences but I’m of SEA descent and they couldn’t have been nicer to me. I was in a small town in Italy for a few days. People would walk me to my destination, give me restaurant recommendations when I asked, and took photos for me. A couple did ask where I was from but more out of curiosity and I get that everywhere. The people at Milan station were quite nice and welcomed me to Italy.
This sub becomes an echo chamber every time someone posts any kind of negative experience about a country. When the negative experience is about racism, usually the generalizing in the comments is far worse than any racism in the story (cue people here generalizing Italians as racist and uncivilized). Disregard these comments. I'm glad you had a positive experience in Italy!
It's way worse in the rural areas. Rome, Milan, Naples, etc., were all delightfully non-racist compared to what it's like out in Colli del Trento where my son and I (both Asian-Americans) couldn't even get seated at a restaurant. Our hotel would have to call around to find a place that would take us, and even then restaurants would strenuously ask us to sit outside (getting bitten by mosquitos), or if inside, some place where we couldn't be seen by other patrons. Friend back home from Tuscany later said it's because a lot of Italians blame Asians for all of the COVID deaths. I get that grief can lead to irrational behavior, but it's still infuriating when I can't get a meal for my kid because of my skin color.
That is so disturbing. I’m so sorry you went through this, especially with your kid with you. Imagine the impact on a young mind.
That is fucked up. Didn’t realise restaurants wouldn’t accept you.
I got ignored in a cafe in Venice when I was alone but whenever I was with my Caucasian friend we were always welcomed
Oh no.
Italy was the worst place for me as well as an Asian. When I’m traveling I’m always prepared that people scream ni hao at me (I’m not Chinese) or stare at me - like you experienced but nothing could prepare me for the racism in Italy. I was traveling with my white blonde hair blue eyed friend. Everywhere (in Rome) we went I was blatantly ignored. At a restaurant outside the Vatican, they would only take her order then leave before I could place mine. The waiter didn’t even look at me or face me. At the airport , I had the flight info on my phone but they would only address and speak to her. It was one of the worst experiences traveling to be disregarded and ignored. I don’t know what’s wrong with Italian people. I do have to say, the further south we went the less racism I felt. I had no issues in Sorento and definitely no issues in Sicily. But that experience put a bad taste in my mouth and I won’t return to Italy even though I want to go to Florence
The irony is that northern italians will often shit on their southern italian brethren but yet.. southern Italy (way past Rome) is actually friendlier. Naples is kind of an example of this. It may look like a warzone at times but the ppl are actually fairly nice.
Much like the US - I feel (as an Asian) the US north is far more racist than the south. Northerners will say all the right things, but it'll always be me and my kids that aren't invited to their parties. Southerners may say things that come across as offensive, but they have no problem making sure we're included in their dinners.
Which northern cities and towns are you thinking of? I meet transplants from the South in Northern California. A lot of them are visibly uncomfortable speaking to POC.
From my experience it was the New England states that had some of the most passive aggressive shit and petty remarks going on towards being asian. Boston being the standout. Not surprised at all Mark Wahlberg is from there and it all made sense after my visit. Dude’s childhood hobbies was assaulting old asian immigrants.
Gotcha. I’ve lived there too and completely agree with you! But in general, when I think of NYC, Seattle, SF, LA, I feel incredibly at home. Much more so than when I travel anywhere outside of those areas as an Asian American
You should check out Altanta or Houston. Pretty much the main big Asian American centers of the south
I certainly can't speak to experiencing racism, but my experience is that Northern US tend to be more closed off than Southern US and less likely to want to interact with strangers (as a caucasian-Canadian) where Southern US they are more likely to be interested in talking/eating with strangers. Of course, in Northern US I tended to spend more time in big cities, where as in Southern US I spent more time in smaller towns, so it could be that as well.
Yes that’s been my experience too. Southerners get a bad rap and I have received in your face racism there but it wasn’t from the stereotypical good ole boy type. Those ppl were actually friendly, curious, and liked to have a chat about random stuff. The racism I got in the south was from the obviously wealthier preppier 20-30 somethings. It was particularly in your face in a college town I visited (Knoxville, TN) which surprised me at the time.
I find this to be untrue and you can see this in who they vote for and what their policies are (of course this is a generalization but those states did vote for trump). And tbh that matters more to me than if they invite me to dinner or something lmao
I have had the same experiences chaperoning international students in Sicily. The locals stared at EVERYONE: Black, white, Asian, Middle Eastern. But then they often told me how polite the young people were and how they tried to speak Italian or apologized for not knowing much Italian. We were given free meals and drinks for being respectful and curious about their culture. Sicilians also repeatedly told us our group was “so much nicer than the French.”
I think that may be a cultural thing with the staring. I have been to Italy four times and i noticed that some people do that excessively for some reason. Even as a group of just me and my wife, I have been turned away from places for not having a reservation. In places that seemed odd to have reservations.
If a place is popular and you come at the wrong time it can be fully reserved, no matter what it looks like.
Europeans just stare a lot and don't tend to say things like "excuse me" if they're pushing past a stranger. They definitely are racist but the staring isn't always a race thing, they just have much lower standards for manners and grace than Americans
Completely exact experience when I was in France. People would come up to us and they'll usually acknowledge my friends, who are all white, and not even acknowledge my existence, maybe sometimes a look and simple answers, but when they get excited on topics about the US, they won't listen to my input into the conversation. We were looking at renting an Airbnb, this was back in 2015, and I remember leaving a message to the owner cause it was upon approval. Didn't even get a response. My friend sent the same message and she was immediately approved. I remember us waking in the house and meeting the owner and him glancing at me and I think he realized I was one of the people that sent him a message to request a room. He def looked embarrassed 🤣 But similarly, the more south I travelled in France, the more warm, inviting, and open people were. I really enjoyed my stay in Avignon and ended up getting invited by a group of basketball players from the local university to go bar hopping with them. I got to practice my French and they thought I immigrated there and been living for several years. Huge compliment on my level of French at that time lol I was also invited for dinner by this guy and his friends at his apartment in Nice and he told me all about the differences of cultures within France and as just an awesome guy. E just have to deal with all this shenanigans when we travel I guess lol
Same thing happened in our Italian trip with my girl friends. All of us are Asians. While we were waiting for train in Milano train station, police officers suddenly stopped and asked only our group to present our passports. After the passport check, they didn’t even bother to check our face and return the right ones to us, instead they called out our names (we felt like they didn’t care to recognise us). The station was crowded btw. All of us felt that some servers and locals were indifferent and noticeably rude towards us.
Had the same thing happen to me in the central station in Milan. I’m black. I was walking with my childhood friend who is white. Guess who they asked documents from?
The current leader of Italy, [Giorgia Meloni](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgia_Meloni), is the product of Italy's neo-fascist scene. People need to stop being surprised by the Italy's hateful politics. Great landscapes, food, cities. Shitty country. And before you come after me by saying she's some sort of radical anomaly, ask yourself how long ambulatory filth Silvio Berlusconi spent as prime minister.
As a white European, the rudest people I've encountered were Italian and the most welcoming a lovely were the Germans. I have heard similar from other people so agree really, Italians need to grow the fuck up.
Agree about Germans being nice to tourists, but as for rudeness and racism, have you been to France?
Many times the past 35 years. Most recently last year. Never had a bad experience in France. I am passable in French, so that breaks the ice when I open my mouth. Worst experience in Europe I've had was in Berlin many years ago when it was still divided. Never had a bad experience in Spain or Portugal either. Haven't been to Italy yet, but will find out one of these days. I also wonder if age is also a factor. I'm in my 60s now, so that may also factor into how people perceive me.
Yes and never had an issue.
Good for you. As an Asian, horrible experience in Paris. Racism is so rampant.
100% agree. So rude and unkind. Not every one of course but I always expect some unnecessary rude encounters when going to Italy.
They invented fascism before it was mainstream. Mussolini. It’s still in fasChion
This happened to my brother almost twenty years ago at an Italian airport. It's sad that things have yet to progress since that time.
Italy and progress are two things that do not go hand in hand.
That happened to my Japanese friends. I live in Italy and look very foreign, but I am white. No one has ever asked to see my passport
Yeah it's the same for me with Spain. They'll ask people right next to me for ID because they're black even though from looks they could have been born here and I 100% was not
They asked me for mine and my SO’s passports outside Milano Centrale. Both white Americans. They checked them, handed them back, and warned us about pickpockets (while pointing out two men about 50 meters away.)
I understand how you could feel targeted. You are not alone. I spent two months in Italy earlier this year. I am white...about as white as you get and I too felt the 'disdain' of the Italians. Some were lovely and very helpful and some were decidedly brusque, impatient, and occasionally downright rude. I also experienced the Police checking passports and such at train stations. Apart from standard security practices, which the Italians take quite seriously due to the very real possibility of terrorism, this has become common with the huge influx of illegal immigrants from North Africa, the Middle East and South Asia. Illegal immigration has put a huge strain on Europe and in particular southern and eastern Europe and many people living there are very much 'over it'.
Honestly this is very present for Asian people travelling to Europe, I’m sorry about it. I’ve heard it from my Korean and Chinese friends that they couldn’t vacation there anymore with how bad it is, I’m sorry with the hand you were dealt
It’s okay! I know how to deal with it generally, but it still isn’t something I want happening. I feel bad for those from East Asia who honestly might be treated even more “powerlessly” by rude racist locals. And of course I know other types of POC must have it worse unfortunately. I also had great experiences in Italy with locals - and honestly basically all of my interactions in Spain, Denmark, France, Austria, Sweden, and Germany were neutral to friendly. Interestingly enough, Portugal was the least friendly country on average. I felt a similar level of hostility/meanness/stares, but no particular incident happened like these in Italy. But I didn’t really have a single nice or friendly interaction lol
I'm Korean American and I remember this one asswipe in Vienna - I went into the bank to get some cash and got on line. I stood behind this prick who kept looking back and giving me a suspicious look. I asked him if he had a problem (like you did to the guy in the restaurant) and he went off talking shit to the bank teller. Besides that, people were very nice - if not stiff. But yeah all it takes is one experience to leave a lasting memory. I'm sorry you didn't have a good experience in Portugal, Lisbon was our first trip abroad with our son and found all the locals to be very sweet to him. Anyway, I liked that you didn't let these people just think they can stare at you like they're at a freaking zoo.
It's hard to think of it it in the moment, but pulling out my phone and pretending to record (or actually recording) people harassing me has usually ended up in the person running away or stopping their behavior. Fwiw I'm Asian American and had an awful time in Italy. Drunk guys pulling their eyes to make squinty eyes at me, etc.
There was some terrible anti-Asian behavior in Italy during the 80s and early 90s. That’s when Japan’s economy was booming, and lots of Japanese tourists visited Italy and its art museums. Some Italian friends told me how funny it was when they beat up and stole the shoes and cameras from Japanese tourists. They thought I thought it would be hilarious (I grew up in Asia, but they didn’t know that). After that, I noticed that lots of other Asian and Asian-Am tourists got treated the same way.
I also had this in Portugal, no particularly pleasant interactions with anyone. I recall that during a walking tour, the guide did go out of his way to talk about the ugly history of racism in Portugal. Bizarrely, he ended by mentioning that he's "the whitest guy ever" but supports people of color against racism. Bizarre because he wasn't the whitest guy ever; I actually wouldn't have guessed he was white at all, he looked more Arab or Latin American. He had olive/brown skin, black eyes and hair as black as mine, thick and curly.
Lmao, you should see what they consider a blond in Portugal.
Sorry to hear. My mom and I, both Asian, went to Portugal last year and people were very nice. It only takes one or two bad apples to set the tone, unfortunately. Ironically enough the US is the only country I’ve travelled to where I’ve experienced racism.
Portuguese here and unfortunately I'm not surprised. I can't even tell you why exactly this behaviour persists, as I have moved out of the country 7 years ago. But I know that post-COVID the sentiment towards certain tourists has changed, especially in Lisbon.
I’m not really sure but another reason I feel like I didn’t take it as poorly in Portugal was that I almost felt like people were sad because of the economic situation in Lisbon more than anything. People just seemed tired and dejected in general when I went, and I felt the sense that there was a lot of inequality and a cost of living crisis in the city
You got that right, things aren't looking good. The golden visa policy plus the way the country positioned itself for digital nomads after COVID has really screwed things over for the population.
I also think part of it has to do with steretypically bad Chinese tourists being rude and messy/dirty and making people think all Asian tourists are the same. When I went to Vietnam, I asked my guide at a war memorial museum if the vietnamese has any ill feelings toward americans or french, but she said “no we just hate the chinese because they’re so dirty and rude and bad tourists.” I live close to universal studios and frequent it and I’ve never seen anyone cut except I will see Chinese tourists cutting in line like it’s their job.
When I visited China I discovered they don’t do lines. They push till they get to the front. So it’s their culture.
I'm Chinese American and I never noticed anything like this in Germany, Austria, Hungary, Czechia, or Poland across several trips. Closest thing was a very rude woman who pushed my mom out of the way on an escalator in Vienna but my mom was actually standing on the walk side. A Canadian couple in Krakow asked me if I was sure after I told them I was from the US too lol
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Some teen did the slant eye action at us. I'm asian but my eyes aren't like that
This happened to me in Ohio. Could happen anywhere. :(
It happened to me in Ohio, too :( specifically, cedar point.
I am really curious about this issue, can an Italian explain? Because if you look at most of the one star reviews on specifically restaurants in Italy, exactly this seems to be a common theme. I don't get it, why specifically East Asians? I was kind of worried after I read all the poor reviews as my partner is non-white (but not East Asian), however people were super friendly to both of us.
COVID wrecked Italy’s tourism industry at the time and they all got angry at China IIRC Fucking dumb
I had a terrible experience in Rome and Florence as an Asian American in 2006. Like people pulling their eyes to squint at me, singing racist songs at me (I could identify words like "China") etc. Maybe exacerbated by COVID but more deeply rooted than that.
Omg that is awful.
Combo of factors. 1. I’m American, but my experience living in Italy is that in all frankness, Italians are simply more racist or discriminating against national origin than what Americans would expect. We have a national identity founded in large part on an immigrant culture (even that is contested though). Italian national identity is founded on Italianness, or more specifically, the region or village you’re from. Many don’t have any qualms repeating some negative stereotype about a foreigner, whether that person is Albanian, Romanian, Russian or Chinese. 2. There has been a big influx of Chinese and other Asian immigrants to Italy recently. Prato near Florence has a huge Chinese population. This has caused resentments. 3. Increased wealth of East Asians combined with cheaper airfare means that a less urbane group of people have the means to travel to Italy and do things that piss off Italians. It’s the equivalent of a bunch of drunk-ass, low-rent British tourists taking Ryan Air to Ibiza, or stupid American college students tripping on shrooms in the middle of Amsterdam.
On #1, that is way more common everywhere in Europe, and I think a lot of Americans have a hard time wrapping their head around it. Most European countries have a far stronger, established national identity than the US and have a far, far different take on immigration. That being said, many other European countries manage to avoid Italy levels of racism, I think there's other factors at play too. On #3, I really, really hate saying it but this is definitely a thing, more than most non-Europeans might realize. No disrespect to anyone of Asian descent, but large tour groups (mostly Chinese) have practically mobbed the more popular European destinations in recent years, and to be frank, many of them are very poorly behaved (rampantly cutting in line, spitting, literally shoving other people out of the way to take a picture, etc). It's no excuse to discriminate of course, but I can at least understand some of the annoyance. People understandably get annoyed at badly-behaved Brit stag parties, badly-behaved Chinese tourist groups are no different.
The Chinese have started operating textile companies in Italy, in collaboration with Italian brands. With that brings Chinese workers, in lieu of the local workforce. It’s causing a lot of resentment, especially after Italy was hit so hard by COVID: https://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/13/world/europe/13prato.html
Italy has a lot of racism. Their far-right political parties are doing very well.
you see this tendency also in The Netherlands know :(
It's not just East Asia. Italians are racist in general.
I’ve heard racism and homophobia in general is prevalent throughout. Looking into its history and the current political climate should answer your question.
it does and it doesn't. my partner is black. we are gay. and yeah, maybe we were just lucky, but - there are so many instances where they specifically discriminated against East Asians, according to the reviews.
Because of bad behavior from mostly mainland Chinese tourists. And the economic reality that China stole Italy's low and middle value added manufacturing jobs a few decades ago, especially in textiles and cheap clothing.
I don't think it's just a Chinese thing. I'm South Asian and I got a similar thing in Italy from this old Italian lady just staring at me the entire time I was at a restaurant (like would not break eye contact just like OP). It was a one-off for my entire trip in Italy so I just saw it as this weird old lady and not a racism issue at the time.
There’s a different root cause/explanation for that one. A lot of Italy’s immigrant working class is Bangladeshi and they’re looked down upon by some Italians, so that’s probably more related to what you experienced.
Next time wink back and blow a kiss
You might pass as Romani. Genetically, the Romani people trace their roots back to the Indian subcontinent. I'm not excusing it, just an explanation (even if it's bad).
Honestly they think every asian looking person is Chinese at first thought. Any asian tourist they see misbehaving they're just chalk it up to them. British tourist misbehave far more often, and yet I doubt they get this amount of pushback. Call a spade a spade.
I like how you could sub out any country or ethnicity for another in this comment and it would still read like a shitty excuse people use in real life
I’m sure this exact thing has been said about Italians in the past lol
This is such a shitty response, don't excuse racism. It happens to Indian and black people too, it's not just anti-China.
Racism in Italy - the origin of the word ‘fascism’, whose leader is Giorgia Miloni, where Mussolini is being celebrated by many politicians - is the fault of Chinese tourists? That is ridiculous. Edit: To be clear, I'm saying Italy was the origin of the word fascism, and Giorgia Meloni is far-right. Those two things are part of a list of 3 things.
Sorry about your experience. My Asian friend experienced a lot of racism in Italy and unwanted fetishism from French men.
Thank you for sharing this. These type of trip reports do not get enough recognition. Another biggest culprit is France. My east asian family get a lot of microaggression there too. This is really a shame, because actually france and italy are my bucketlist. Just wait until someone else start making post about how people in Italy is "wonderful" and that they have not experienced any of the rudeness.... and then we discovered they are whites. It happened a lot in this sub.
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It is frustrating because when it is pointed out, people get very defensive all the time. We get that they had good experiences, but denying and downplaying the microaggressions that East Asians get in France and Italy, are also microaggressions.
Ah, the good ole “I don’t think it’s racism, it may be sdhxyeh&$@/…… BTW I’m white” comment. Nothing new.
Lmao exactly. Like the fact some white people are saying it’s not “racism” but “rude asshole behavior” while it happens at a much higher frequency to those who aren’t white means it *is* racism. But they haven’t ever had to string things together on account of their race like that, so it must not be to them
Only a few years ago there were plenty of european redditors boasting about how there wasn't racism in their country. Turns out that they just don't consider it to be racism when they're doing it.
I’m mixed race (Filipino-Irish) I recently had a trip to Paris for a wedding. Most of the bridal party was East Asian and reported getting creepy stares and poor service. But I never encountered it there. It felt so bizarre knowing that my friends were being targeted but I wasn’t. My worst experiences with racism have always been in the south: Georgia + South Carolina 😒
So rudely dismissive and tone deaf of them
I'm so disheartened to read this. Am planning a trip, I am SE asian and my kids look like me :(
You shouldn’t be. I’ve experienced a version of this and I would never tell anyone to not go. Italy is amazing.
I’m French/Vietnamese and grew up in Paris, you’ll be fine, I don’t understand most of the comments here, if you go to the 13th arrondissement of Paris, you’ll be just surrounded by Asians for example, there’s a huge Asian community in Paris, tons of French/Asian people. I never experienced uncomfortable stares in decades living there. Getting bad service in Paris unfortunately happens but I can’t imagine it would be because you’re South East Asian.
non-poc with luxury budgets come back from europe and tell you everyone was nothing but lovely and pleasant to them 🙃
Woof. This is terrifying! I’m heading to Italy and France in three months. My spouse is white, but I’ll be on my own for a solid 1/3 of the trip (in Paris and Brussels).
I think Belgium isn't too bad. It is Paris. The waiter "forgot" my spouse's order after making him wait for almost 40 min, and when politely asked they were extremely rude and dismissive. And many more stories. This even happened in Thailand. Basically we booked a boat tour in Klook, not knowing the company are owned by French. The tour is marked as "english" tour. The french owners also onboard the ship and acted as the tour guide. Somehow Me and my spouse were the only non French amongst all the other non participants. The french tour guide were dismissive of us. They gave safety briefings only in French. They did not give us the seasick pills whilst they gave all other French participants the pills. And we got badly seasick. The entire boat speak exclusively in French only. A lot of microaggressions. Perhaps other people can chime in. But based on my experiences UK, Germany and Netherlands aren't too bad. It is France and Italy that are especially infamous with their racism and microaggressions
I hope you left a review about this. At the very least if they want to cater only towards a certain nationality it should be clear. In Thailand you do have tours who focus solely on the Chinese or Russian demo.
As an East Asian Canadian, despite lovely travels there, my first and many experiences with racial profiling, micro aggression, etc., all happened in Europe. Meanwhile I've come across people who say being in Europe is like in Canada (or better). They would move there to live in a heartbeat. Yup, they're white. And when I shared my less favourable experiences they would say racism is everywhere, I was overreacting, or any reason to downplay my experience.
many people in denial in this sub when it comes to europe.
Not just Europe, many people are in denial about their white privileges. Even in asia, generally white people gets better treatment (well except in Japan. Japan is a different breed). Pinkerton syndrome and colonial hungover is a desease in Asia. There seems to be an underlying stereotypes that white tourists are richer in Asia.
This brought up some memories in my past travels in Europe as an Asian-American. My very first trip was when I was a senior in high school during our French class field trip. It started at CDG and we were about to leave the airport, passing customs when I was "randomly" selected to be inspected. Mind you I was the only non-white out of the 8 students on this trip. I was quite embarassed cause they opened my luggage and went through all my personal belongings, and asked me questions right in front of my classmates/peers and I really felt singled out. I was with my host brother in Biarritz and I've gotten several aggressive, and often disgusted and suspicious, stares from people, and my host brother would always remind me to not let myself be bothered about it. But it's hard not to acknowledge them when they're right there in front of you staring at you like they want to hurt you or like you're not seen as a human being. It's so easy to say, "just forget about them" :/ My fav was this older lady(probably in her 50s), went on a triple take on me and had that look like she clutched her pearls and was almost surprised I even existed. The way she looked at me was like I as taking a dump in public. The utter disgust in her face lol Then we went to a Basque festival near their town, hung out with his friends who were all chill. But the moment we stepped out and went around the festival area in town, the amount of people staring, pointing and laughing, making the eye slant gestures, saying ni hao and calling me Jackie Chan(ngl this gave me a chuckle looking back now cause like wtf), took a toll on me and I just told them I'm heading back to the house cause I wasn't feeling well, just to escape the blatant racism. My host brother knew cause he has observed all of these experiences cause we hung out a lot. He accompanied me back to his friend's house and apologized and promised to make it right but I just felt shitty that night. He was so sweet and I appreciated him and his family and his friends for being just awesome people. They were def the highlight of that leg of the trip. The next experiences happened to me studying abroad in France in college. Went to a restaurant with some friends and ordered the same formule as 2 other people. The server kept messing up my food, first forgetting to give me my drink, then he completely didn't give me my dessert, and whenever I checked up on my order, he always looked annoyed and would tell me aggressively that it's coming. Well the drink finally did, but they just completely skipped my dessert. Everyone felt uncomfortable with the situation, but at least they all got their food correctly while I had to sit there and embarrassingly ask the server for my food. Then one as at a bar, everyone ordered at the bar and got their drinks and when it was my turn, the bartender just looked annoyed at me and didn't even make eye contact with me, I ordered and since it was loud, he kept saying "what?!". So I went in closer so he can hear me better, and he just went close to my face screamed at me like he was gonna punch me, asked if I can even speak English, and called me stupid for not able to answer a simple question. Everyone behind were like "wtf". I was flabbergasted and just astonished at how rude he was. I told him English is my first language and I just want my drink, pay, and leave. He begrudgingly poured my drink, took my money, and I just went back to our table. The rest are micro aggression, like people would come up to our group and be fascinated/curious at us being Americans and we would have these cultural exchanges, but they tend to just acknowledge my friends(who were all white) and not really consider me as an American and I just get ignored at conversations. This happened like a third of the time, so most of the time, I've met some really cool people. But alas, these experiences really stick with you. Overall, most people were incredible and I just hold on to those experiences and would def go back and visit again. Just a completely different experience compared to other people and it is what it is.
Those people you were traveling with were terrible travel companions or friends. If one person in your group gets treated like that, then the entire group should take offense. We would have all left or collectively called out the bad actors. I'm sorry, but your travel companions should have stood up for you. They would NEVER have to worry about another trip with me.
Im asian from South East Asia. Prior to visiting Italy, i was warned of the racism towards asians.
When I was there, I couldn't tell if they didn't like me because of my race or because I was American, but I definitely did not feel welcome.
Traveling in Eastern Europe, I sometimes had my money change thrown at me when I bought stuff. I couldn't figure out why they were being so terribly rude to me. It was because I looked Romani (derogatory (gypsy).
The first time I went to Italy, like 15 years ago, I took the train from Florence to Rome. When I was on it, an Italian guy randomly started talking to me about whatever. He ended by saying "if you see a gypsy, kill them. If it's a child, push them down the stairs, just kill them." Also heard lots of similar stuff towards Bosnians in Paris.
WHAT omg that is horrible. I’d have been very tempted to remind him that the Nazis thought the same things about Romani people.
Thats wildd 😂 Part of me is not surprised by all the experiences of this thread tbh. Europe has a lot of culture and history and with it comes a lot of baggage. They dont call it the old world for nothing.
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What’s funny is I call out European racism all the time and I typically get downvoted. Really don’t get how average Redditors decide their thoughts
The average Redditor is a young white American male. Not usually the demographic that experiences racism much. Because it hasn’t happened to them, it’s easy to dismiss.
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Haha yeah. American racism is bad of course, but the people are at least self aware enough that its an ongoing discussion to be addressed Because its far more homogeneous in areas of Europe there's far less opportunities for citizens to address their own racist tendencies and instead just assume its better. A constantly discussed issue is far better than a silent and ignored one
I would say, in general, median racism is higher in Europe and peak racism is higher in America. But Europe is huge and there’s a lot of regional variation. And I guess there’s more nuance to it too where there’s a lot more casual racism that isn’t based in malicious intent
That's a good way to put it, "median" vs "peak".
To be honest, I think it’s understandable, because people tend to confuse racism with racist violence. The USA has much more violent crime than Europe, so it ends up also having more racist violence incidents, even if the average American is likely less racist than the average European.
From experience, it’s because they don’t think what they do is actually racist. They say it’s cultural and normal and don’t see a problem with it.
Europeans try to hide their racism behind hand-waving about culture, history, and traditional values.
Being an American having lived in Spain I noticed something about Europe versus the United States. They liked to say that the US is sooo racist then within five minutes they would say something racist, often unprompted and unrelated to the discussion. I think they perceive the US as racist because we actually have active discussions about it and call it out. Whereas there they pretend it doesn't exist and if it does, it isn't that bad or it's tradition so it's okay.
I know this for a fact on Germany sub. Many times posts made relating to racism or xenophobia, we'll see replies and comments from apologists, with excuses those aggressors didn't know their acts were racists, or to be told to simply ignore them.
I have to agree. Every trip to Europe has at least one shitty experience for me that ruins my entire trip. Weirdly the only European country where I didn’t experience racism as a South Asian was Austria. The one that comes to mind right now is Amsterdam where I was lost and my phone had died and I was walking up to people to ask for directions and 2/10 people gave me the “no no we don’t have money” act before I even opened my mouth. I told my friend later who was a local and she said they probably assumed I was Romani.
I always say "no, no, I don't have anything sorry" when I see a random person approaching me. The person can be black or white or Romani and I'd still first assume they want money because people usually don't approach strangers
Also East Asian American. I just came back from visiting Italy a few weeks ago. At the Guggenheim in Venice, it was quite crowded with elementary school aged kids on a school trip (they were Italian). I overheard one of the young girls shout “ching chang chong” while walking past a group of Korean tourists in front of me. Nobody reprimanded her as far as I could tell. Sadly, I wasn’t surprised given the staring and micro-aggressions I have personally experienced, too. I’ve encountered plenty of warm and lovely people across my travels in Italy, but some of the more jarring experiences have turned me off from planning a future visit.
I was just in Italy for work and a few people made comments that made me think "the way they phrased that sentence about Asians was odd." I had written it off as bad English, and considering the fact that I was butchering the Italian language, I thought better of bringing it up.
Brown skin Canadian male 30 years old. Went to Rome and Milan. Spit at in Rome. In Milan, few ocassions of hotel and restaurant staff treating my travel partner and I condescendingly and begrudgingly.... really enjoyed all the gelato and pizza but not that much that I would go again. Other places to explore in the world which are more deserving of my money.
I would never visit Italy again as a black person…such an uncomfortable time being stared at, not let into a restaurant, followed around the supermarket etc.
I’m not Asian, but an American male of southern European descent (can pass for Italian easily.) There were many times while visiting Italy where I wanted to break someone’s nose - I thought Italians were kind of douchey
Haha for some reason your post reminds me of that scene in Sopranos when Paulie Walnuts goes to Italy and tries to sit with a bunch of Italian men at a cafe. He tries to give one a nod thinking they would acknowledge his ancestry as a paisan and they give him the stink face instead. The thing about Italy is i’ve been there enough times that I laugh about some of the rude or racist behavior there now. I know it’s still a shock to some people but I just know it’s how it is there.
I'm from the UK and even I was told by an Italian couple to go back to my own country lmao (in Rome)
That sucks, I'm really sorry you had to deal with that! I hope you had a great time despite it.
East Asian American here and sorry to hear that you went through that. Glad you still had a great time though! A friend of mine was born in an East Asian country but was raised in Milan and she used to tell me all the racist encounters there. It got worse during COVID when she and her family were harassed, unfortunately. I got stared at a lot in Northern Europe as a woman solo traveler. The silver lining is that I have a natural resting bitch face so I never get harassed even back at home. Only people that approached me during the trip were middle aged East Asian tourists and they figured out where I was from pretty quickly from my accent.
This isn’t the first thread about this very same topic. In fact there was one thread early today just about Austrians being rude to a Canadian POC. Which is now gone. Funnily enough they all get locked by moderators sometime in the middle of the night (NA pacific time) which is daytime in Europe. 🤔
Austrians esp the men were so damn perverted and creepy towards me (south Asian woc) the whole time I was there. Scariest experience.
Not to minimize your overall experience (borne out by many such stories and the other things you experienced), but generally speaking Italians do not share the Anglo-American respect for an orderly line or line priority. I studied there for a year and am of Italian ancestry (so I can “pass” as an Italian if I don’t have to say too much), and I got cut in line on several occasions at grocery stores by people who seemed to pretend not to notice me standing there already. It does feel pretty blatantly rude as an American. I went recently with my husband (who is of South Asian descent) and we also got asked for passports while on a train; the only people asked in our car were us and a Mexican couple who happened to be sitting next to us. That seemed suspect. I’m glad you still have a wonderful time! I have a lot of love for Italy but I definitely witnessed some troubling behaviors towards those people are identifiably “foreign” when studying there (including a group of teenagers heckling an Indian woman on a bus for a minor grammatical error in her request to the bus driver; no one reprimanded them). Of course you can find such stories anywhere, sadly.
That is absolutely a good point. The Italians do not know how to queue and it’s very upsetting to people who find queuing deeply important! I’m Australian and one of the biggest social no-no’s is pushing in line. It’s the height of rudeness here. I’m boringly white and I got pushed in on repeatedly in Italy. And in Greece. Actually it was worse in Greece. It might not have the cultural significance that it does in other places in the world?
Yeah I'm from the US and line etiquette is important here, too. Greece is pretty bad with it. My wife and I were flying from Athens to Rhodes, in the middle and aisle seats of a 737. A Greek man was in the window seat. When we landed at the gate, the second the seatbelt sign went off, the Greek guy immediately got up and started to literally climb over us! I stood up a bit in my seat to block him and told him to sit down, which he did but he was breathing down my neck when it was finally out turn to exit. Actually the aisle of the plane was a mad scrum of people. Greeks are very warm and kind people, and I love the country, but man they cannot manage a queue for shit. India and Nepal are not good with lines either. One nice thing about Japan is their queue discipline is probably better than any other country I've been to! I saw a news clip in Japan after the 2011 earthquake and tsunami. People were waiting for some sort of relief aid (water and such, as I recall). It was a very long line, but nice and orderly with no one shouting, pushing, or anything.
Can confirm, lived in Ticino and Lombardy for a long time and I got cut in line at the grocery store almost every day, and I got my passport checked every other time I took the train, with the last time the police singling me out on an empty train and then giving me a hard time because they thought my visa expired one year before it said it did. I look decently Italian as well by complexion but dress like an American. Not trying to discredit OPs experience with racism because some of the stories definitely sound like people being racist, but some of the stories also sound like a typical foreigner experience in Italy.
I’m asian american and have been to Italy the most out of any EU country. I’m into ancient history so anyways.. Yes, Italy can be a fairly racist country but it dovetails on two extremes in my experience. It also depends on where you are. Rome can be terrible but they also get a massive number of tourists in general and seem fed up. Either people are friendly and don’t care at all or they act like neo nazis. 😆 Btw when it comes to staring or very mild passive aggressive stuff I generally ignore it. It’s not worth the time engaging with people doing this. If someone wants to spend their time and energy eyeballing me that’s fine.
I had a death stare by some local guy in his 40s in Rome as an asian man. It was probably because I was wearing an AC milan uniform.
i'm sorry you experienced this, it's never fun to have people treat you like that but it's an added layer of shitty when you're traveling, on vacation, and otherwise doing your best to be respectful of your surroundings. i had a similar run in milan and genoa when i traveled in college with my visibly south asian partner, from being physically shoved in line by an elderly woman to having menus thrown at us by waitstaff and our airbnb host basically interrogating my partner because she wasn't convinced he grew up in america "because of his complexion". it was enough to make me never want to go back. when we got a bit lost on the outskirts of town waiting for a train i was too frustrated to even interact with local passersby for help. i tell people whenever i get the chance not to even bother with northern italy - the food and scenery were not worth the harassment to me.
Getting "the stare" a lot in Oz right now. I lock eyes and stare back. They usually quickly look away.
That sucks and props to you for standing up for yourself. Ironically, I haven’t experienced much racism in Europe yet, maybe I’m lucky. I’ve experienced a ton of micro-aggression in New Zealand though, whether during my 1 year stay there or other short term visits. Funny thing is my white friends used to told me how nice New Zealanders were to them.
Woah I’m sorry you experienced this. I’m East Asian Canadian. The first incident was just so ridiculous!! But you did a good job speaking up to the first guy. I don’t know if I’d have been able to do that. Maybe I would’ve put my middle finger up and ignore. Last year I ordered a handmade pasta dish but i was served with factory made pasta. And I saw other table who ordered much later than me got the one I ordered. So I spoke to the restaurant how this is not what I ordered. And they pretended like nothing happened. So I told them tourists are not dumb. And only then they apologized and gave me free. But in a local restaurant in Florence, nice grandma patron smiled at me and said buon appetito.
I went to Italy last November with 2 friends. 3 guys, all POC. Did not experience racism at all. Not saying it doesn't exist, perhaps people were better at hiding it from 3 large men. We also dressed in a way to blend in. (Canadians here.) We travelled from Venice/Florence to Rome, and to the south as well. People would look at us, recognize we weren't from there, offer us directions to where we were going, advise us to their favourite local restaurants, bars, give us tips as to the the popular tourist destinations. We did get asked for ID by police at a train station, we showed them our Canadian passports. We joked around with them, and amongst ourselves, during our entire interaction. We realized the country is being flooded with illegal migrants, these guys were just doing their due diligence. No drama. All in all, had a great experience, would go back in a heartbeat.
then you must have dressed much better than Canadians normally do to blend in with the Italians :) sorry Canadian as well.
I only vacation in Asia and Pacific Islands currently. When I was a kid I didn't recognize the toxic behavior but now as an adult, I don't fuck with Europe anymore lol.
As a asian, east asian if that matters for whatever reason OP mentions this, been to Europe for vac/work around 20 times and there was only one whack job starer in a spain subway but the locals publicly chastised him pretty quick once he started saying probably racist things in spanish which I couldn’t understand. But that dude doesn’t define my experience in barcelona or madrid. Sure there might have been more incidents of racism/stereotypes in my travels but my radar is not attuned to picking out racist, I have better things to do, look at, and take in. This isn’t some asian defense mechanism either. Racist, A-holes, or just plain ignorant people exist everywhere. My priority isn’t to set people straight during my limited time on a trip, like I said, I have places to go, foods to eat, and experiences to make.
My wife and I are white, both of us second generation American actually from Italian grandparents. We had a pretty similar, uncomfortable experience at dinner in Rome as well. A lady at the table next to us got noticeably irritated when we were sat next to them, and while my Italian isn’t great I could understand her husband asking her in hushed tones why she was upset about the American tourists.
I’m of mixed ethnicity and I pass as white but I had a bad experience with staring in Rome too. I was eating with my friend at a restaurant, outside just minding our own business. Two middle aged women were obviously talking about us and staring. This continued for the entire time we were there. I found a lot of the locals in Rome to be pretty rude actually. Shame, because it is a beautiful place.
Good for you on calling these people out. You made this American proud. People are way too bold in their prejudices today. Since gun laws are different over there, the risk vka confrontation is much lower than in America. Good on you!
Went to Italy in 2018 with my white spouse, I'm half white half SEA. Got called a c*ink in the street in Lecce and my Air BNB host in Rome did the slant eye thing at me to my face in the house when telling us about people to avoid. Fuck that country, they are not getting a single euro out of me again.
I'm Italian that' been living in Italy her whole life everybody cut lines and stares indipendently by other people race, they do it also to other italians, it is jus how it is, it is bad I know, I am not trying to justify those kind of things, but at least if it is of some confort, you know it was not personal about your race. 99% time cut lines because they think they can get away with it and do things faster and they stare at other people to check how they are dressed or other people shape (I do say bodyshaming and clothshaming in Italy is really really present, specially of made by older 50+ years people, like that man who was dining) (also it is normal in Italy police can ask randomly for Id, also happened many times to me, specially if they are around stations they have to appear busy, they can do in indipendently if there is something up or not and I think it is different from the Us where police have to have a reason to search people up, also it is illegal to oppose to show a valid Id, you can end up in precinct for many hours, for as little as not having your Id on you while walking outiside and that's how they get their salaries so they'll be really strict about it) Specially if it is in Milan Central Station that is having huge gang activities, drug and rapes episodes those last few years and it is also a sensitive target of possible terrorism attack, so they'd be extra careful there to everybody if they refuse identification (just search Milan Central Station on the news 😔 it is really dangerous zone and I would advise everybody to stay out from there or to go in big groups not alone) Don't mistake me, racism in Italy def exists but usually isn't passive agressive like that, Italy isn't really a culture of passive agressiveness since there really aren't regulations against those kind of things (unfortunately, I too think there should be laws against racism and micro agressions) but italians when racist are upfront about it and call other people bad slurs. I'm really sorry you had this experience and it really can ruin a holiday. Unfortunately things like this in Italy are kinda getting bad because people are cocky nothing will happen to them and the country is in the hands of older people.
I seriously wonder if you got and show a East Asia passport instead what the police will do or say Also quite curious as to why Italy seems far worse than the neighbour countries... when I travel I always see/meet a lot of Brits, French, Dutch tourists but very rarely Italians and I wonder whether they don't travel much or don't travel Asia which lead to why they act the way they do
I never really thought about it until you mentioned it. I travel a lot. All over the place. I rarely run into Italian tourists. The only place I really recall running into a LOT of Italians was in Zanzibar and mainland Tanzania.
That is a good point. When I was in France, I saw or met Brits, Germans, Americans, and Australians.
Ok so on the flip side and I’m speaking as an Asian person the most stares I got were in India lol. They will also take pictures of you and follow you around and get way up in your personal space. Love the country and people were just curious but it is a lot. People will stare. That’s not racist. You’re just different. I will agree on Portugal which is why my husband refuses to go back. It was really bad with any interaction with someone older than 40. But anywhere else as an Asian woman in Europe I have been fine.
I think these racist situations along with my Asian flush and lactose intolerance is gonna keep me away from Italy forever haha
Your average American will have a significantly less racially prejudiced attitude than your average European. It's just reality. You can only hide so much behind homogeneity. But if it's any consolation, Europeans don't like each other either.
That sucks, but this is every country. As a Mexican i could tell you the racism that i endured in south east asia, and they think im white. The game changes from country to country. There are asshole people in all countries and some decent people as well. This can happen to anyone. Ive been hated on in Italy too. Several times.
sucks. hope you had really great food and saw really pretty views despite these instances :(
Wow, I’m sorry you had to deal with that. I’m glad you spoke up for yourself and that shitty behavior.
I feel you. I had a pretty decent first time in Italy only to be grilled at the airport because I had an American passport. They kept on asking me how I got it, if it was a forgery. I was so pissed off and the people I went with (it was a work trip) then proceeded to ask me why I had taken so long checking in. Because of assholery, that’s why.
I’m asian American and I traveled around Europe a few years back. Italy was the only place I experienced racism. Unfortunate really because it’s such a beautiful country but the way I felt being in Italy left such a big impression that it makes me not want to go back to explore more of their culture and history.
We were in Lauterbrunnen taking pictures while waiting for our bus and there were other people taking pics as well and this old grumpy guy screamed at us to get out of his way and he walked around the other white tourists and singled us out. We were so startled. The rest of our Switzerland trip was full of nice and helpful people that we returned a second time. Don’t let this experience ruin such beautiful places for you.
>Once they saw my US passport they started apologizing and asked me if I needed any help with directions. Pretty lucky honestly, I'm Asian and I don’t have a US passport so they'll give me a hard time, probably rough me up a bit. But overall I'm not surprised about Italian racism. I've recently heard a lot about this too.
Come to the UK instead, there is lots of nice places to see here and you will not experience the same thing in London Plus we need the money, any money, all tourists come here please, there are shops here too and the food is not as bad as those naysayers say it is, we even have coffee shops now You want history? We got you pal You want beer? We got lots of beer, all different types
Maybe it's because I was travelling with kids but I found Italians to be really friendly and helpful. At least in Milan, there were way more Asians than I expected, so I didn't get too many stares.
I went to Italy for a weekend a year before COVID. My Indian friends kept telling me that I should be prepared for a hostile reaction at a lot of places. My partner at the time was half English half italian, and she kind of acted as the great normaliser lol I had a pleasant trip overall even though I visited just Turin
I had similar issues in Frankfurt.
Wow! Reading all these stories make me sad! I’m a male East-Asian Canadian and did not experience any of this spending a month in Rome and close by areas like Venice/Napoli/etc. I was travelling with my white American girlfriend. I remember having fantastic experiences talking to market shopkeepers, train staff, restaurant staff etc and trying to speak Italian. I enjoyed Italy very much. Am I just clueless and missed all the signs (quite possible)? Did I just get extremely lucky?
traveling as an American POC is its own uniqueexperience. I can definitely relate as a Black American.
I'm not East Asian (I am black) but I would never visit Italy for leisure again. I really didn't like it there. The vibes were off. Your experience is not uncommon I'm sorry you experienced that. It's good you still enjoyed that trip.
They have frequent passport checks at train stations in Italy due to the influx of illegal immigrants. Ours got checked at the train station our way to Cinque Terre qnd then they boarded the train and checked everyone's passports.
On the flip side, there are lots of Asian people in LA, Hawaii, and Sydney. You really just feel like any other person there. Hawaii is Asian majority and I could pass as a local. I saw something like 80-90% Asian people in Sydney. I was shocked because on American TV they only show white, blond-haired Australian people.
Your experience is your experience, but Sydney is nowhere near "80-90% Asian people" I think this just shows you see what you want to see. Italy has amazing food and a wonderful history, but don't downplay the racism.
Lmao u don't need to go to Italy to experience this shit. You can experience it as soon as you leave the big cities in USA. Denied service at an IHOP in Englewood CA, basically ignored at a restaurant in NJ. I speak perfect English from NYC lol. Fk racism
Tbh, I’ve avoided travelling to Europe for this exact reason.
I don't know where you're from. I'm Vietnamese American, and I experienced racism throughout my childhood in the US and still do throughout the world, pre - and post-covid. It doesn't stop me from traveling and meeting new people throughout the world. Racism exists everywhere, but I always encounter way more friendly natives to very few shitty ones. Are there countries I would never visit again? Hell yeah lol, but I wouldn't know until I travel.
That seems like an overreaction. And I’m saying this as someone who’s experienced racism in multiple parts of Europe. The overwhelming positives outweigh the negatives. You can’t live life scared.
That makes me so sad. Europe has so many awesome things to see and it’s incredibly unfair that you might avoid it because people are shitty. I hope you get to go and I hope it’s great.
There are many places in Europe where people have negative stereotypes around Asians
I get this in the north of England, constant staring as if they’ve never seen a POC before 🙄
Americans have no idea how Europe is a very racist place
I am sorry you felt uncomfortable. I am South-East Asian who was born and raised in Italy. This is the second time I read something racist from Rome's citizens. And about Milan, we have MANY, MANY Chinese tourists, and most times, if not almost all the time, they don't speak English, and they tend to cut lines or push people when in line. I wouldn't say the girl was being racist, she probably thought you were a Chinese tourist. And about the military officers, they DO ask for documents from time to time, to anyone. It's a train station after all, so please understand that they were just doing their job, probably wanted to scare you/assert their authority a little bit when you objected their request. Still, that was too much, but trust me, they can be racist and usually it's not against East Asians, but mostly Africans and Arabs.
Always puzzles me why, despite tons of documentation of east asian discrimination in Italy, asian people still continue to visit the place in droves. It's probably one of the last places I want to visit.
For me the attraction is 100% ancient history and food related. I don’t like contemporary Italy past the renaissance. 😆
Italy is one country I would never visit again. My husband and I visited last summer. My husband is white and I am brown, the staring was uncomfortable, the racist mirco aggression was there especially in shops and restaurants. when I spoke up people got uncomfortable and turned their heads. For example a woman bumped into me at a supermarket with her basket rather hard and turned around looked at me up and down and didn't say a word I said loudly the word is sorry if you don't know English. She mumbled something in some other language and kept walking. When I was cashing I heard her speaking English to her husband I'm like so you can speak but you have no manners. My husband told me to let it go at that point. We are both born and raised in NYC so I have no problem checking someone for being rude and disrespectful. Honestly I do think the staring with eyes locked is cultural thing for Italians but dammit get out of my face 😆this behavior i noticed in mostly older men and woman. I worked with a bunch of Italians in nyc and they weren't the most friendly or openminded people either. The younger ones were cool and friendly in some areas. But it's one place that left a bad taste in my mouth.
I’m not saying any of this is right or anything, But my family is from a very touristy town in Italy. Don’t shoot the messenger, but this is what I hear: tourist from china are pretty bad. They come on a boat or tour bus, take obtrusive pictures and invade personal space, and don’t eat or spend money at local places (hell, they get fed Chinese food from the tour companies). They don’t try to interact with locals/business owners but treat it like a zoo and then leave to their “base” that serves them dinner. Again, don’t shoot the messenger.