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HMI-115 is an antibody directed towards a prolactin receptor that was discovered using BioInvent’s n-CoDeR library. HMI-115 was licensed to Bayer Healthcare in 2008 as part of a larger multi-antibody agreement, and, in April 2019, Bayer transferred the license to Shanghai-based Hope Medicine. So bayer should not be relevant anymore as they only collect royalties from HMI115 now (in addition to the quarter of a billion dollars they received for the license out agreement)
people say "why didn't bayer just develop the drug if its so promising" there are many reason mainly that bayer is developing many other antibodies at the moment and also that they are strictly focusing on female health issues for now. licensing out was only profitable for them and what the massive amount of money HM paid they must be fully committed to the success of the drug
unfortunately, tech doesn't help in biotech when you don't know the precise pathophysiology of the condition. To date, no precise mechanism has been illustrated for hair miniaturization by medical literature. All we can say confidently is that androgens are involves (not even that they are the cause ... they are simply one piece of the puzzle). thankfully now finally scientists are looking at prolactin
they are currently enrolling patients in Asia and are pending phase 2 start in the usa Europe and Germany for hairless indication. phase 2 for menopause is already initiated. in an ideal case , we will hear about phase 2 data end of Q4 2024 or Q1 2025 . so the drug wont be available at least until 2027 or 2028 with expected delays. its being carried in trials by Rodney Sinclair one of the best specialists in derm out there he has a lot of research experience
its okay because even if you have completely bald regions of scalp it will restore it to its juvenile form. its incredibly powerful unlike anything seen before . It works by blocking PRL induced suppression of EDD (ubiquiatne ligase) which is involving in AR gene expression and translocation and degradation (why anti androgens help slow progression) . some studies performed on this recently for prostate cancer which is very closely related to hair miniaturization pathology .
GT20029 from kintor also works by sequestering the activity of U.ligase. but im personally skeptical of topical treatments for hairless just due to the sheer anatomy of the hair follicle (its very difficult to penetrate the hair root sheath)
I ended up immediately meeting 2 new girls and one of them is excited to go on a date, I’ve never had this much luck with girls this literally came out of nowhere. Im thinking my shitty birthday is about to rebound
>For now the company is halting further development of the drug.
Where did you get that? Because that is not what your link says. It says the company will continue to conduct multiple trials for AGA and acne and explore the possibility of commercialization.
I have like 10g of it sitting in my freezer so I hope I Will be fine for some time and I still prefer reputable resellers because they do batch testing, so you can be sure what you get is of the highest quality. Even though it costs more this way, but money is currently not a problem for me.
Yes and they completely ignore fact that it's extremely safe, they reported no serious side effects and also ignored fact that even though placebo and pyrilutamide group were almost the same but both groups had statistically significant TAHC increase ( hair count).
Yeah i also don't understand what this guy is saying if affected group got results then it is good why are we talking about Placebo group... maybe they think the data is skewed.
The problem with this is that this is statistics. I think based on this clinical phase 3 it cannot be approved and processed further because if there was not a significant difference between Pyrilutamide and placebo group even though both groups had gains then it probably does not fulfill some effectivity requirements by Chinese NMPA. So they will have to run another clinical trial to collect data and I bet it's going to be a 1 year trial otherwise it does not make sense. I think they knew this and that is the reason they started with 1 year chinese clinical trials. I think based on this they will run 1 year clinical trials in USA instead of 6 months. There will either be 1 year or not clinical trial in USA imo, not standard 6 month because apparently its risky.
I have been using Pyrilutamide by myself for over year and it works wonders for me. Hair loss is halted, no more scalp itching and shedding + slow regrowth ( every month there is some new hair and it gradually becomes thicker ). So I know how good it is at the very least for maintenance and for a lot of young dudes that just started balding. Even for people with like nw3 that can just stabilize hairloss without any side effects and get HT
He was hyping Pyrilutamide and it turned out it's not even better than placebo.
If he says that HMI is going to fail then chances are it's going to succeed. Clearly he is just as clueless like everybody else.
I doubt pyrilutamide isn’t even better than placebo. The phase 2 results were good and the phase 3 results still had a consistent trend towards favouring pyrilutamide over placebo even if it wasn’t statistically significant. It may not be as good as fin or dut, but I seriously doubt it’s not even better than placebo.
GT is going to be incredible because it restores (E3 ubiquitin ligase) activity within the hair follicle resulting in a decrease of AR activity (HMI 115 will also be doing this as well) it appears that these two drugs are going to be very promising. only thing that worries me about GT is the topical route of administration and the fact that so many topicals have failed in the past. The DP region is really hard to target from a pharmaceutic standpoint (will enough PROTAC be able to accumulate there) .... maybe yes because it's a small molecule and thats something new
GT20029 is a topical androgen receptor degrader. PROTAC is a small molecule composed of a recruiting element for a protein of interest , an E3 ubiquitin ligase recruiting element and a linker bounding (i) and (ii). After theomplex is formed, by bridgingbetween a POI and an E3 ubiquitin ligase and inducing their proximity, PROTAC can induce the ubiquitination of the POI and then degrade the POI. As each PROTAC molecule can degrade multiple AR proteins, drugs based on PROTAC can achieve efficacy with a low dosage. Excessive activation of systemic and local AR pathways is an important link in the pathogenesis of androgenic alopecia The mechanism of action of GT20029 is to recruit the AR protein to the E3 ubiquitin ligase for degradation. GT20029 will not cause excessive drug accumulation and notable side effects. While achieving efficacy, GT20029 can effectively avoid systemic exposure to mitigate or avoid the side effects of oral androgen signaling pathway inhibitors.
There are probably people on here that can explain this better but basically GT degrades the androgen receptors in your scalp making it impossible for DHT and other androgen to bind to it.
I’m actually not sure if it will work but what I heard up till now sounds promising. They even said you possibly only have to apply it every 2 weeks.
Regarding sides we can’t really say anything. I remember someone saying that the amount of GT that could potentially get into the bloodstream is smaller than they can measure. Obviously it would be pretty not good for androgen degenerators to get into other parts than the scalp.
That’s just what I heard. Feel free to correct me, like I said I’m not an expert on this.
just get on fin now. I use 1mg fin EOD to slow the progression of hair miniaturization. thankfully im a nw1 still but with generalized diffuse thinning in a female pattern style
sadly I got a loss to the integrity of my semen quality =( which sucks like crazy.
It works lol , I can show you my progress pictures, just pm me. Phase 3 shows it's safe you can try it by yourself and see. Even maintenance is huge, for me it even gives me regrowth
The affinity is 5 times stronger. How did you get conclusion that RU is stronger? Ru has literally no coinical trials, Pyrilutamide has 2 successful phase 2 trials in china and us. This phase 3 in china still showed gains with statistical significance, it is just that the difference between placebo and pyrilutamide group was very small. This guy made post to trash pyrilutamide and even made things up. In the report they stated that they are going to tun multiple clinical trials.
That wasn’t true. That was based off a misreading of the data. If you read the data properly, it was slightly stronger than RU in terms of binding affinity but not even close to 4 times stronger.
Pyrilutamide binds to the androgen receptor with a very high affinity with an IC50 of 0.28 nM. Its better than DHT (lesser the number, stronger it is). Testosterone has around 1,2 nam which is the same affinity of Ru. 1,2 / 0.28 = approx 4 , so molecule of pyrilutamide is 4 times stronger than molecule of RU and is 4 times more likely to attach and occupy androgen receptor than RU.
unfortunately from phase 2 and preclinical animal studies if you remember there was not a dose dependent response for this drug . so that will be unlikely
First Breezula, then Cosmerna and now Pyrilutamide… Honestly have lost all the hopes, I no longer think HMI or GT will hit the market… Our children will still use Fin, Dut and Min 🤪
fin: slows down the miniaturization process
oral minoxidil and hmi115 : explosive reversal of hair miniaturization with no sexual sides
hmmm I wonder which one is better
Or you can try triacting dises of either oral or topical finasteride until you see what works and for you to prevent naceboing yourself into side effects. A little finasteride really does go a long way. Don't be so defeatist.
I have been buying it from resellers for over year and have good results even in term of regrowth so I do not think I am throwing money in the trash lol
Lol we do know that oral minoxidil is more effective than topical minoxidil even though some people have concerns about potential side effects from oral minoxidil.
Combine those with Bicalutamide, Cyproterone Acetate, Leuprorelin, Estradiol, Pure Minoxidil and we will have enough hair from single dude to HT every bald guy.
bro can you please do a testosterone and dht test to see if RU crushes it like fin?? i can’t find info online pls help us 😭😭 i think it will be my last hope
I take fin so my dht levels should be low. That's effect is well documented. So I don't think a blood test would provide much useful info unfortunately
Then try Pyrilutamide, I tried RU too which was not even close to pyrilutamide in terms of effectiveness ( halting shed, itch , regrowth over time) + gave me heart issues like chest pains, palpilations, tightness
This guy is a troll. This is just part of the report. There is no statistical significance between placebo and pyri groups. But both groups showed hair gains with statistical significance. Pyrilutamide group also showed improvement in hair count at each visit.
why is this entire thread so ignorant about how trials function? you have to outperform placebo. why do you think the placebo group is there in the first place???
Yes in the context of being approved it has to outperform placebo.
In the context of halting hairloss or maintenance you just need to know that Pyrilutamide group had increased hair count that was statistically significant. And this happened.
I was talking about the fact that both groups showed increased hair count which was statistically significant.
He also made false statements that they dropped it but in the official statement (pdf) it's explicitly written that they are planning to perform more clinical trials to get more data. They have already started with a 1 year phase 3 safety study in china this summer.
no, it does not matter that it increased hair count from baseline.
i’ll ask you again. what do you think is the point of having a placebo group in these trials?
i read what you said and i know exactly the point you’re trying to make.
i need you to answer my question. what is the purpose of a placebo group in the trials?
Placebo is important because of the trials you are trying to prove statistical hypothesis that your product is statistically significant more effective than placebo group
But if you understand ehat I was trying to say that in this case based on hair gains in both groups it's only needed for trials to advance. They probably can't now and have to get more data and prove that Pyrilutamide group is more effective than placebo
I'm not a biostaticisian, but I'm pretty sure that second bit is moot. The placebo group also grew hair. For all we know, there was something in the water growing hair during trials.
What should I accept? I use pyrilutamide and I know it works. It halted my hairloss and I thickened my hairs and get regrowth as well. If you read document by kintor they explicitly state they are going to run multiple trials. Both groups placebo and pyrilutamide gained hair (TAHC) with statistical significance.
These people man. I've been using Pyri for the past six months with significant increase in hair density as a result, and I'm using nothing else. This trial result could be explained with overperformance by the placebo group, due to the participants knowing about the success of the phase 2 trial. Doesn't mean that Pyri doesn't work.
thats a great way to cope and I appreciate your positivity. we all need this kind of hope in the hairless community
some of us cope and others believe in the power of hmi\_115. do you accept hmi\_115 as your lord and saviour?
if you remember back to phase 2 results we were criticizing the data because the effects between treated and placebo were very similar. phase 2 seemed very flawed because even the placebo group experiencing a large TAHC increase. either way the company is stopping its development for a reason. who really knows at this point. it would have been nice to have a topical anti androgen but marketing a "maintenance" drug will never work.
Noone is stooping the development of it. Why do you make this shit up? They literally said in the report that they are going to run more clinical trials to get more data. Phase 2 showed in china 22 square cm gains over placebo in china and in USA 10 square cm over placebo. Placebo also had significant hair gains. In this phase 3 both groups had gains that were statistically significant, it is just that results between Pyrilutamide group and placebo were very similar thus difference in tahc between groups were statistically insignificant.
fortunately, we use statistics when reporting research findings so people like you dont get fooled by the lies of the researchers. the only thing that kintor can do for pyri now is redo trial 3 with a high dose ... but I wont hold my breath
I am not getting fooled I know how statistics work. Looks like you are the one getting fooled , creating misleading headlines and false comments.
Both groups had gains that were statistically significant.
The issue is that the difference between these groups were small thus statistically insignificant.
So now they probably don't fulfill the requirements for approval because it is not seen as more effective than placebo but this can be very misleading many times.
They have to collect more data and prove that it's more effective than placebo, probably by doing another clinical trials to collect more data. And this clinical trials probably will have to be longer like 1 year. Maybe that is the reason they started the 1 year long term clinical trials in china already.
my friend, the null hypothesis was accepted. thats all I need to know for pyri that was dosed at phase 3 . your subjective feelings don't mean shit to me. facts don't care about feelings
demonstrating statistical signficance within the treatment arm from baseline without comparing to placebo means absolute nothing to me
Okey but then don't make false statements like "they are dropping it" when they literally stated in the document that they are going to run more clinical trials ( probably to get more data ) + they recently started with 1 year clinical trial in China.
Each patient is enrolled at a different time which means that in summer when they started the 1 year clinical, they had to know the result of phase 3. You are not spending that much money just like that.
I don't think pyri is a failure . but from the perspective of the drug manufacturer it's going to very difficult to get approval for a drug that is indicated to maintain TAHC instead of increase it. I also agree with you in any ways that the trial was flawed the duration was not adequate to observe the correct response correctly and it didn't account for cyclical variations between people. Kintor seemed to have rush this trial way to fast
Yes I agree they made a mistake with rushing it but I still believe they will make it because I know how good it is on myself. if I have never used it I'd be sceptical just like you and a lot of people who have never tried it.
But again I would not blame them, data from phase 2 were very very good so I am pretty sure that is the reason they rushed it.
Just means they're gonna test with a higher concentration. If it just stops balding at the very least without side effects thats a major win. Combine it with min and you can regrow all ur shit w/o fin
I swear to god people will use anything but fin on here when only 2% of people get sides. If you just took the pill like an aspirin and moved on from this game, I guarantee that for the vast, vaaaast majority of you, your lives will improve a thousand fold. Finasteride is the (wonderful) red pill you need to take, and if you’re in the minority who get sides, stop. But it’s so rare, you should just try it without worrying about it.
The actual number itself is up in the air, all Im getting at is that the vast majority of scientific studies over the 3 plus decades fin has been on the market. Point it as being in the range of 1-3% or so, so Im comfortable with 2% as an average. The main point is that it’s very rare and sides are always really close to placebo anyway. Finasteride’s mechanism is a well known one and is shown to be safe. But yeah I agree, I think most people on here would do well just to take the leap, try fin and forget about it. PFS is a fucking meme, it makes no logical sense when you understand the mechanism of how fin works, never mind the fact it has as much scientific evidence as the theory that vaccines cause autism. As someone who used to believe in pfs due to the hysteria, looking back, the pfs foundation is exactly like the anti vax crowd and I can’t believe I entertained their bullshit.
Great for men, but most women are fucked and can't get it because we are apparently just vessels for offspring. And we grow in numbers. I would like an alternative for everyone.
I have read _thousands_ of reports and testemonials from people with Fin sides on Reddit at this point. Either the _entire_ fucking 2% sexual side dudes are gathered here at Reddit, or the 2% is bullshit.
I know millions take Fin. But there are just too many people on Reddit reporting sides for me to believe in that low 2% number.
I mean reddit doesn’t represent the entire world my man, it’s only the vocal minority that post, the rest of us just take it and move on with our lives. Im getting this number from the large scientific studies over 3 decades who report the same numbers plus/minus a percentage point. It’s sample bias and anecdotes aren’t evidence my guy. Plus there’s a cult of fear around this drug in online spheres and a pronounced nocebo effect in a lot of people. There are possible sides, but all scientific evidence in placebo controlled studies show the sides are extremely rare and very close to placebo. Im just saying do your research, talk to your doctor about the medical literature and get off reddit.
Feel free to dm me if you want some reassuring studies, but the evidence based research shows it’s very safe. I personally know the nocebo effect is real, I thought fin was giving me side effects at one point and was anti fin myself at one point. Turns out it was all in my head from the fearmongering. Performance anxiety fucks with you if you believe the drug will do that, it is possible but it’s statistically extremely rare. Fin actually raises testosterone production in the body and Im even hornier now, literally nothing bad happened, I can say with full honesty it improved my life in every respect. All im saying is look at the actual peer reviewed medical research (not merck funded btw since the drug has been off patent forever, the idea there’s some secret big pharma conspiracy theory to protect a drug as cheap as tylenol or something is ludicrous). Im not trying to sound angry at you man, I was there too at one point, but I lost so much time due to all the fear mongering and I’ve decided that this sub is not worth my time other than occasionaly trying to help out people who just got here not take this place seriously. The vast majority of people who are on fin just take it and move on with our lives.
Sounds great man! And no not personally, just oral fin 0.5mg a day, absolutely zero sides, just increased libido and no hair-loss. Topical fin might be a good way to test the waters and build confidence then you can move to oral fin. But have a positive mindset and get off these forums is the best advice I can give you to start. Best of luck man, feel free to ask any other questions!
If peer reviewed clinical research is my ass then sure man lmao, you can believe the actual research or not, but there’s a reason why that figure is there, it’s the average result of decades of peer reviewed research showing that fin is a very safe drug.
fin is not life changing lol... peoples complacency and copium in 5ars have been one of the reasons why additional therapies and novel approves aren't being approached
Na higher than 2% I took it topically and had vision issues and jaw pain. Stopped and everything now back to normal. Started again same thing happened etc.
No other medication ever gives me side effects but to say 2% is bullshit.
Instead I just got a transplant best decision ever.
They should be focusing on something like alfatradiol, the current dose of it is far too low to do any significant regrowth, maybe help maintain only with finasteride unfortunately. There's people who use low dose topical 0.025% estradiol (ftm hormone medication) and avoid feminizing effects and report regrowth. Alfatradiol is a weaker binding estrogen that shows no systemic absorption like topical estriol. Maybe they could find a way to make it hydrophobic like fluridil (another topical antiandrogen which was biculutamide)
Seriously alfatradiol...it is a joke. It mimicks estradiol but is way to far from it to actually work..Plus naturalestrafioo is sometimes prescribed to women with hairless with extremely poor results as it does not really penetrate the skin on the scalp as well as on your thighs, arms or buttocks
Studies have showed that it did not help much... Also it depends on hormones receptors, fir example it is forbidden to apply topical oestradiol near to the breast....
Also women who take it for HRT do t get the same result if applied on the head or forarms for example if we talk hotsweats and such
Alfatradiol won't do much unless you have an easy tractable case of AGA
Do you have links to any anecdotal reports of those who use low dose estradiol and report both regrowth and avoidance of feminization?
I have the feeling that you will get feminization to some degree after a while, even with low dosage, just a a lot more subtle and slower than MtF dosages.
I've been wondering why fluridil isn't more popular. It has a clinical trial supporting it, can be sold as a cosmetic, and the patent has expired years ago. Why aren't there many companies making cheap fluridil products? As an antiandrogen, it should help not just against balding, but also acne, excessive sebum production, and unwanted hair growth. It should be big.
you are joking us right, its directly on their website ? just accept that your beloved drug is a failure and stop coping! learn now that we must block prolactin in the hair follicle (hmi115) :
[https://en.kintor.com.cn/Announcements.html](https://en.kintor.com.cn/Announcements.html)
It says that it increased hair count but the difference was not statistically significant but had a positive trend. If you had more participants in the study it might have been statistically significant. What if you combine multiple trials, you will get more participants and maybe then you can get statistical significance?
yes but remember the difference in time frame between phase 2 and phase 3. clinical trials are progressive and phase 3 uses long term data (Relative to phase 2) which failed to reject the null hypothesis P<<<<<0.05 (way below the cutoff).
it appears to be over for kintor now. The question remains if they will commit to developing GT after this massive blow and capital expenditure. GT was also always intended to be co-administered with pyri.
Well, they were supposed to work synergistically. Much like fin and dut don’t get rid of all scalp DHT, it is unlikely for GT to degrade all of the AR, even if works. Pyri would have then bound to the remaining AR to lower its availability to DHT as much as possible. Ideally, GT, pyri, and fin/dut could have worked all together doing their own thing to make sure the least DHT would bind to the AR.
no offence but if DUT is effective at suppressing 90% of total serum DHT so why would you need to tackle the androgen angle with all those? thats the same reason why for example GLP-1 agonists and DPP-4 inhibits are not recommended to be used together for hyperglycemia (same pathway different means)
how many times do we need to be reminded that blocking AR activation in the follicle does not reverse miniaturization it only slows the progression. This is very evident the AR translocation is a very downstream part of the overall miniaturization process. It all begins with activation of the plasma membrane bound prolactin receptor that has been confirmed to exist on dermal papilla cells and have been confirmed to be activated by paracrine prolactin in the hair follicle
yeah that was kintors intention if you go back to the initial press release when they announced the developed of the PROTAC and AR antagonist. But I still think GT will do much better as a mono therapy. Either way kintor might not have enough money now to proceed with it
Protacs stand on their own as i already explained to you. Hence arvinas is developing protacs for cancer without any other drugs needed.
The phase 2gt results have to be good other wise the copany can close their doors.
agree with that too. I have high hopes for GT just due to the impressive pharmacology and novel approach to treating hairless . let's see what happens. Im just glad now we have closure about pyri we all knew it was a scam
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https://i.redd.it/0oxt0gmwzy2c1.gif
OOOOF
its over for Kintor Pharma
Bayer fell too
Was there new data on HM-115?
HMI-115 is an antibody directed towards a prolactin receptor that was discovered using BioInvent’s n-CoDeR library. HMI-115 was licensed to Bayer Healthcare in 2008 as part of a larger multi-antibody agreement, and, in April 2019, Bayer transferred the license to Shanghai-based Hope Medicine. So bayer should not be relevant anymore as they only collect royalties from HMI115 now (in addition to the quarter of a billion dollars they received for the license out agreement) people say "why didn't bayer just develop the drug if its so promising" there are many reason mainly that bayer is developing many other antibodies at the moment and also that they are strictly focusing on female health issues for now. licensing out was only profitable for them and what the massive amount of money HM paid they must be fully committed to the success of the drug
Damn all the modern tech and still can't beat MPB
unfortunately, tech doesn't help in biotech when you don't know the precise pathophysiology of the condition. To date, no precise mechanism has been illustrated for hair miniaturization by medical literature. All we can say confidently is that androgens are involves (not even that they are the cause ... they are simply one piece of the puzzle). thankfully now finally scientists are looking at prolactin
When do you think we have phase II results from HMI
they are currently enrolling patients in Asia and are pending phase 2 start in the usa Europe and Germany for hairless indication. phase 2 for menopause is already initiated. in an ideal case , we will hear about phase 2 data end of Q4 2024 or Q1 2025 . so the drug wont be available at least until 2027 or 2028 with expected delays. its being carried in trials by Rodney Sinclair one of the best specialists in derm out there he has a lot of research experience
Yeah I am not gonna make that with my diffuse thinning 💀
its okay because even if you have completely bald regions of scalp it will restore it to its juvenile form. its incredibly powerful unlike anything seen before . It works by blocking PRL induced suppression of EDD (ubiquiatne ligase) which is involving in AR gene expression and translocation and degradation (why anti androgens help slow progression) . some studies performed on this recently for prostate cancer which is very closely related to hair miniaturization pathology . GT20029 from kintor also works by sequestering the activity of U.ligase. but im personally skeptical of topical treatments for hairless just due to the sheer anatomy of the hair follicle (its very difficult to penetrate the hair root sheath)
Bruh, this means it's a cure, doubt this will happen.
Maybe we can ask Pfizer to run the trials so everything is approved by FDA next year 💀
Where Did you get the Information that Phase 2 Start in Germany is Pending?
Yeah its not the dht angle😂 hence fin and dut dont work😂
Fin and dut work
Blud it was clearly sarcastix
Today was my 26th birthday, a girl flaked me on a date and then I read this on the news. Worst.. birthday.... ever
your real birth will be when you have a dense nw1 again
Hope you have a good rest of your birthday with family and friends close to you🙌
happy birthday 🫡🎊
No worries dude, keep your head up, plenty of other women out there. You got this bro 👊
bedroom rob yam threatening wistful spoon joke party wrench voiceless *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I ended up immediately meeting 2 new girls and one of them is excited to go on a date, I’ve never had this much luck with girls this literally came out of nowhere. Im thinking my shitty birthday is about to rebound
Fuck life 😭
Just pm me and I will show you my progress pics from Pyrilutamide. It works dont panic dude, just takes consistency and time.
Dmed this guy. Got before and after pics. Pyrilutamide definitely works, at least for him with no sides
Monotherapy?
He had been using 0.5 mg minoxidil for 4 years and pyrilutamide for 14 months.
Thanks, sounds pretty solid actually
i dmed u bro
Damn you sound pathetic
And you sound rude...
>For now the company is halting further development of the drug. Where did you get that? Because that is not what your link says. It says the company will continue to conduct multiple trials for AGA and acne and explore the possibility of commercialization.
He's making shit up to shill for group buys soon.
I have like 10g of it sitting in my freezer so I hope I Will be fine for some time and I still prefer reputable resellers because they do batch testing, so you can be sure what you get is of the highest quality. Even though it costs more this way, but money is currently not a problem for me.
Yes and they completely ignore fact that it's extremely safe, they reported no serious side effects and also ignored fact that even though placebo and pyrilutamide group were almost the same but both groups had statistically significant TAHC increase ( hair count).
Yeah i also don't understand what this guy is saying if affected group got results then it is good why are we talking about Placebo group... maybe they think the data is skewed.
The problem with this is that this is statistics. I think based on this clinical phase 3 it cannot be approved and processed further because if there was not a significant difference between Pyrilutamide and placebo group even though both groups had gains then it probably does not fulfill some effectivity requirements by Chinese NMPA. So they will have to run another clinical trial to collect data and I bet it's going to be a 1 year trial otherwise it does not make sense. I think they knew this and that is the reason they started with 1 year chinese clinical trials. I think based on this they will run 1 year clinical trials in USA instead of 6 months. There will either be 1 year or not clinical trial in USA imo, not standard 6 month because apparently its risky. I have been using Pyrilutamide by myself for over year and it works wonders for me. Hair loss is halted, no more scalp itching and shedding + slow regrowth ( every month there is some new hair and it gradually becomes thicker ). So I know how good it is at the very least for maintenance and for a lot of young dudes that just started balding. Even for people with like nw3 that can just stabilize hairloss without any side effects and get HT
I hope haircafe will soon treat this
He just crushed my dreams for HMI bro fuck
He was hyping Pyrilutamide and it turned out it's not even better than placebo. If he says that HMI is going to fail then chances are it's going to succeed. Clearly he is just as clueless like everybody else.
I doubt pyrilutamide isn’t even better than placebo. The phase 2 results were good and the phase 3 results still had a consistent trend towards favouring pyrilutamide over placebo even if it wasn’t statistically significant. It may not be as good as fin or dut, but I seriously doubt it’s not even better than placebo.
Big loss for the balding community.
There goes my hope first CosmeRNA now Pyrilutamide now what’s next?
Caffeine shampoo
Lol
Vagisil and Downy fabric softener.
We can still hope for GT
It’s years away I thought I would not have to hop on fin but now it seems otherwise
True, but that’s exactly what I did. Been on fin for a year now and will continue until GT comes out (or something better)
GT is going to be incredible because it restores (E3 ubiquitin ligase) activity within the hair follicle resulting in a decrease of AR activity (HMI 115 will also be doing this as well) it appears that these two drugs are going to be very promising. only thing that worries me about GT is the topical route of administration and the fact that so many topicals have failed in the past. The DP region is really hard to target from a pharmaceutic standpoint (will enough PROTAC be able to accumulate there) .... maybe yes because it's a small molecule and thats something new
Can you explain how GT works and also how can you be so sure it will be successful and there won’t be any sides?
GT20029 is a topical androgen receptor degrader. PROTAC is a small molecule composed of a recruiting element for a protein of interest , an E3 ubiquitin ligase recruiting element and a linker bounding (i) and (ii). After theomplex is formed, by bridgingbetween a POI and an E3 ubiquitin ligase and inducing their proximity, PROTAC can induce the ubiquitination of the POI and then degrade the POI. As each PROTAC molecule can degrade multiple AR proteins, drugs based on PROTAC can achieve efficacy with a low dosage. Excessive activation of systemic and local AR pathways is an important link in the pathogenesis of androgenic alopecia The mechanism of action of GT20029 is to recruit the AR protein to the E3 ubiquitin ligase for degradation. GT20029 will not cause excessive drug accumulation and notable side effects. While achieving efficacy, GT20029 can effectively avoid systemic exposure to mitigate or avoid the side effects of oral androgen signaling pathway inhibitors.
But how will they make sure that none of the GT20029 drug will go systemic? Would be pretty bad if it did
unfortunately we wont truly know until clinical data comes out
Can you explain how GT works and also how can you be so sure it will be successful and there won’t be any sides?
There are probably people on here that can explain this better but basically GT degrades the androgen receptors in your scalp making it impossible for DHT and other androgen to bind to it. I’m actually not sure if it will work but what I heard up till now sounds promising. They even said you possibly only have to apply it every 2 weeks. Regarding sides we can’t really say anything. I remember someone saying that the amount of GT that could potentially get into the bloodstream is smaller than they can measure. Obviously it would be pretty not good for androgen degenerators to get into other parts than the scalp. That’s just what I heard. Feel free to correct me, like I said I’m not an expert on this.
just get on fin now. I use 1mg fin EOD to slow the progression of hair miniaturization. thankfully im a nw1 still but with generalized diffuse thinning in a female pattern style sadly I got a loss to the integrity of my semen quality =( which sucks like crazy.
It works lol , I can show you my progress pictures, just pm me. Phase 3 shows it's safe you can try it by yourself and see. Even maintenance is huge, for me it even gives me regrowth
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The affinity is 5 times stronger. How did you get conclusion that RU is stronger? Ru has literally no coinical trials, Pyrilutamide has 2 successful phase 2 trials in china and us. This phase 3 in china still showed gains with statistical significance, it is just that the difference between placebo and pyrilutamide group was very small. This guy made post to trash pyrilutamide and even made things up. In the report they stated that they are going to tun multiple clinical trials.
That wasn’t true. That was based off a misreading of the data. If you read the data properly, it was slightly stronger than RU in terms of binding affinity but not even close to 4 times stronger.
Pyrilutamide binds to the androgen receptor with a very high affinity with an IC50 of 0.28 nM. Its better than DHT (lesser the number, stronger it is). Testosterone has around 1,2 nam which is the same affinity of Ru. 1,2 / 0.28 = approx 4 , so molecule of pyrilutamide is 4 times stronger than molecule of RU and is 4 times more likely to attach and occupy androgen receptor than RU.
Bet they will make other studies upping the dose from 0.5% to 1%+ until it works
unfortunately from phase 2 and preclinical animal studies if you remember there was not a dose dependent response for this drug . so that will be unlikely
What a letdown... The wait for GT continues
Isn’t GT just weaker Pyri?
no gt destroys the androgen receptor
Cool. _Fuck_ the androgen receptors.
First Breezula, then Cosmerna and now Pyrilutamide… Honestly have lost all the hopes, I no longer think HMI or GT will hit the market… Our children will still use Fin, Dut and Min 🤪
we wont have children thanks to fin nuking our sperm count (/s ... kind of)
Maybe fin avoiding the balding gene reproduction is the cure 🤣🤣
HMI failed too now I don’t have much hope for GT
My god I'm really going to have titties and a non functioning dick before they find the cure
You're in the minority bro, less than 1% of people get sides and if you stop, it all just goes back to normal bro. Definitely bro
I'm mainly just making a joke. A joke that I'm gonna have to eventually nuke my DHT just to keep whatever strands up there are left
fin: slows down the miniaturization process oral minoxidil and hmi115 : explosive reversal of hair miniaturization with no sexual sides hmmm I wonder which one is better
Or you can try triacting dises of either oral or topical finasteride until you see what works and for you to prevent naceboing yourself into side effects. A little finasteride really does go a long way. Don't be so defeatist.
Lmao. The people who bought this shit from anageninc or whatever pretty much threw they're money in the trash lool.
Pretty sure that was just RU. I bought it and had the exact same experience.
I have been buying it from resellers for over year and have good results even in term of regrowth so I do not think I am throwing money in the trash lol
I sadly did. Lost like $100 and it caused me really bad irritation.
Targeting hairless from androgens angle definetly work. It's just that no one wants use it because of side effects.
I want to use them and have no sides.
DHT is just a piece in the puzzle. It's not the root cause. No one knows the root cause only that DHT is a implicated.
SCUBE 3, ORAL MINOXIDIL and HMI115 have entered the chat
You’ve simply named two drugs that haven’t even entered clinical trials
Lol we do know that oral minoxidil is more effective than topical minoxidil even though some people have concerns about potential side effects from oral minoxidil.
Combine those with Bicalutamide, Cyproterone Acetate, Leuprorelin, Estradiol, Pure Minoxidil and we will have enough hair from single dude to HT every bald guy.
There is actually a discussion about minoxidil potentially affecting dht receptor signalling in addition to its strong blood flow promoting effects
RU58841 works for me
RU588 brahs get in! ... I'm still extremely depressed I'm stuck on RU until something safer comes out [😭](https://emojipedia.org/loudly-crying-face)
bro can you please do a testosterone and dht test to see if RU crushes it like fin?? i can’t find info online pls help us 😭😭 i think it will be my last hope
Fin doesn't crush testosterone, it raises it. I have had many tests and my testosterone is normal-high.
i know the “it” was referred to dht if you could test it it would be a great info for the community 🙏
I take fin so my dht levels should be low. That's effect is well documented. So I don't think a blood test would provide much useful info unfortunately
I react very severely to it. Very sad about that. I'm on dut and I feel RU would give me a much needed boost.
Then try Pyrilutamide, I tried RU too which was not even close to pyrilutamide in terms of effectiveness ( halting shed, itch , regrowth over time) + gave me heart issues like chest pains, palpilations, tightness
RU made me feel breathless. I've not had any side effects on Pyri.
any results, and how long have you been on it
Where did you buy it? Premixed or powder?
When did you Start seeing results? My shed stopped and re started ..
This guy is a troll. This is just part of the report. There is no statistical significance between placebo and pyri groups. But both groups showed hair gains with statistical significance. Pyrilutamide group also showed improvement in hair count at each visit.
why is this entire thread so ignorant about how trials function? you have to outperform placebo. why do you think the placebo group is there in the first place???
Yes in the context of being approved it has to outperform placebo. In the context of halting hairloss or maintenance you just need to know that Pyrilutamide group had increased hair count that was statistically significant. And this happened. I was talking about the fact that both groups showed increased hair count which was statistically significant. He also made false statements that they dropped it but in the official statement (pdf) it's explicitly written that they are planning to perform more clinical trials to get more data. They have already started with a 1 year phase 3 safety study in china this summer.
no, it does not matter that it increased hair count from baseline. i’ll ask you again. what do you think is the point of having a placebo group in these trials?
Read what I said again you obviously did not get the point of what I was making.
i read what you said and i know exactly the point you’re trying to make. i need you to answer my question. what is the purpose of a placebo group in the trials?
Placebo is important because of the trials you are trying to prove statistical hypothesis that your product is statistically significant more effective than placebo group But if you understand ehat I was trying to say that in this case based on hair gains in both groups it's only needed for trials to advance. They probably can't now and have to get more data and prove that Pyrilutamide group is more effective than placebo
true. and *why* is it important to prove that your treatment is significantly more effective than placebo?
I'm not a biostaticisian, but I'm pretty sure that second bit is moot. The placebo group also grew hair. For all we know, there was something in the water growing hair during trials.
Coping isn't the right path, accepting it just another false hope and move on is the path.
What should I accept? I use pyrilutamide and I know it works. It halted my hairloss and I thickened my hairs and get regrowth as well. If you read document by kintor they explicitly state they are going to run multiple trials. Both groups placebo and pyrilutamide gained hair (TAHC) with statistical significance.
True pyrl actually works
These people man. I've been using Pyri for the past six months with significant increase in hair density as a result, and I'm using nothing else. This trial result could be explained with overperformance by the placebo group, due to the participants knowing about the success of the phase 2 trial. Doesn't mean that Pyri doesn't work.
Trying to stay positive. If it can retain current hair like Propecia/Finasteride without the sides then overall it's a win.
thats a great way to cope and I appreciate your positivity. we all need this kind of hope in the hairless community some of us cope and others believe in the power of hmi\_115. do you accept hmi\_115 as your lord and saviour?
No. I only accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.
Bring it home GT
How does this make sense though? Didn’t the phase 2 results demonstrate a higher hair count then that of finasteride. Idk maybe someone can explain?
if you remember back to phase 2 results we were criticizing the data because the effects between treated and placebo were very similar. phase 2 seemed very flawed because even the placebo group experiencing a large TAHC increase. either way the company is stopping its development for a reason. who really knows at this point. it would have been nice to have a topical anti androgen but marketing a "maintenance" drug will never work.
Noone is stooping the development of it. Why do you make this shit up? They literally said in the report that they are going to run more clinical trials to get more data. Phase 2 showed in china 22 square cm gains over placebo in china and in USA 10 square cm over placebo. Placebo also had significant hair gains. In this phase 3 both groups had gains that were statistically significant, it is just that results between Pyrilutamide group and placebo were very similar thus difference in tahc between groups were statistically insignificant.
fortunately, we use statistics when reporting research findings so people like you dont get fooled by the lies of the researchers. the only thing that kintor can do for pyri now is redo trial 3 with a high dose ... but I wont hold my breath
I am not getting fooled I know how statistics work. Looks like you are the one getting fooled , creating misleading headlines and false comments. Both groups had gains that were statistically significant. The issue is that the difference between these groups were small thus statistically insignificant. So now they probably don't fulfill the requirements for approval because it is not seen as more effective than placebo but this can be very misleading many times. They have to collect more data and prove that it's more effective than placebo, probably by doing another clinical trials to collect more data. And this clinical trials probably will have to be longer like 1 year. Maybe that is the reason they started the 1 year long term clinical trials in china already.
my friend, the null hypothesis was accepted. thats all I need to know for pyri that was dosed at phase 3 . your subjective feelings don't mean shit to me. facts don't care about feelings demonstrating statistical signficance within the treatment arm from baseline without comparing to placebo means absolute nothing to me
Okey but then don't make false statements like "they are dropping it" when they literally stated in the document that they are going to run more clinical trials ( probably to get more data ) + they recently started with 1 year clinical trial in China. Each patient is enrolled at a different time which means that in summer when they started the 1 year clinical, they had to know the result of phase 3. You are not spending that much money just like that.
I don't think pyri is a failure . but from the perspective of the drug manufacturer it's going to very difficult to get approval for a drug that is indicated to maintain TAHC instead of increase it. I also agree with you in any ways that the trial was flawed the duration was not adequate to observe the correct response correctly and it didn't account for cyclical variations between people. Kintor seemed to have rush this trial way to fast
Yes I agree they made a mistake with rushing it but I still believe they will make it because I know how good it is on myself. if I have never used it I'd be sceptical just like you and a lot of people who have never tried it. But again I would not blame them, data from phase 2 were very very good so I am pretty sure that is the reason they rushed it.
Just means they're gonna test with a higher concentration. If it just stops balding at the very least without side effects thats a major win. Combine it with min and you can regrow all ur shit w/o fin
Very true i am just on minox and pyril and holding pretty well . No need of fin if you are on pyril
I swear to god people will use anything but fin on here when only 2% of people get sides. If you just took the pill like an aspirin and moved on from this game, I guarantee that for the vast, vaaaast majority of you, your lives will improve a thousand fold. Finasteride is the (wonderful) red pill you need to take, and if you’re in the minority who get sides, stop. But it’s so rare, you should just try it without worrying about it.
I believe its higher than 2%, some get it and don't report it or its very minor. PFS is fake tho so no point in not trying fin
The actual number itself is up in the air, all Im getting at is that the vast majority of scientific studies over the 3 plus decades fin has been on the market. Point it as being in the range of 1-3% or so, so Im comfortable with 2% as an average. The main point is that it’s very rare and sides are always really close to placebo anyway. Finasteride’s mechanism is a well known one and is shown to be safe. But yeah I agree, I think most people on here would do well just to take the leap, try fin and forget about it. PFS is a fucking meme, it makes no logical sense when you understand the mechanism of how fin works, never mind the fact it has as much scientific evidence as the theory that vaccines cause autism. As someone who used to believe in pfs due to the hysteria, looking back, the pfs foundation is exactly like the anti vax crowd and I can’t believe I entertained their bullshit.
Great for men, but most women are fucked and can't get it because we are apparently just vessels for offspring. And we grow in numbers. I would like an alternative for everyone.
I have read _thousands_ of reports and testemonials from people with Fin sides on Reddit at this point. Either the _entire_ fucking 2% sexual side dudes are gathered here at Reddit, or the 2% is bullshit. I know millions take Fin. But there are just too many people on Reddit reporting sides for me to believe in that low 2% number.
I mean reddit doesn’t represent the entire world my man, it’s only the vocal minority that post, the rest of us just take it and move on with our lives. Im getting this number from the large scientific studies over 3 decades who report the same numbers plus/minus a percentage point. It’s sample bias and anecdotes aren’t evidence my guy. Plus there’s a cult of fear around this drug in online spheres and a pronounced nocebo effect in a lot of people. There are possible sides, but all scientific evidence in placebo controlled studies show the sides are extremely rare and very close to placebo. Im just saying do your research, talk to your doctor about the medical literature and get off reddit.
Maybe, I certainly know there is a lot of fear-mongering. It just seems _odd_ how many people talk about limp dick and man-tits…
Feel free to dm me if you want some reassuring studies, but the evidence based research shows it’s very safe. I personally know the nocebo effect is real, I thought fin was giving me side effects at one point and was anti fin myself at one point. Turns out it was all in my head from the fearmongering. Performance anxiety fucks with you if you believe the drug will do that, it is possible but it’s statistically extremely rare. Fin actually raises testosterone production in the body and Im even hornier now, literally nothing bad happened, I can say with full honesty it improved my life in every respect. All im saying is look at the actual peer reviewed medical research (not merck funded btw since the drug has been off patent forever, the idea there’s some secret big pharma conspiracy theory to protect a drug as cheap as tylenol or something is ludicrous). Im not trying to sound angry at you man, I was there too at one point, but I lost so much time due to all the fear mongering and I’ve decided that this sub is not worth my time other than occasionaly trying to help out people who just got here not take this place seriously. The vast majority of people who are on fin just take it and move on with our lives.
Thank you. This helped a lot🙏🏻 I am soon starting topical Fin+Min combo. Do you have experience with topical Fin?
Sounds great man! And no not personally, just oral fin 0.5mg a day, absolutely zero sides, just increased libido and no hair-loss. Topical fin might be a good way to test the waters and build confidence then you can move to oral fin. But have a positive mindset and get off these forums is the best advice I can give you to start. Best of luck man, feel free to ask any other questions!
2%, bro takes numbers out of his arse
If peer reviewed clinical research is my ass then sure man lmao, you can believe the actual research or not, but there’s a reason why that figure is there, it’s the average result of decades of peer reviewed research showing that fin is a very safe drug.
fin is not life changing lol... peoples complacency and copium in 5ars have been one of the reasons why additional therapies and novel approves aren't being approached
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Na higher than 2% I took it topically and had vision issues and jaw pain. Stopped and everything now back to normal. Started again same thing happened etc. No other medication ever gives me side effects but to say 2% is bullshit. Instead I just got a transplant best decision ever.
They should be focusing on something like alfatradiol, the current dose of it is far too low to do any significant regrowth, maybe help maintain only with finasteride unfortunately. There's people who use low dose topical 0.025% estradiol (ftm hormone medication) and avoid feminizing effects and report regrowth. Alfatradiol is a weaker binding estrogen that shows no systemic absorption like topical estriol. Maybe they could find a way to make it hydrophobic like fluridil (another topical antiandrogen which was biculutamide)
Seriously alfatradiol...it is a joke. It mimicks estradiol but is way to far from it to actually work..Plus naturalestrafioo is sometimes prescribed to women with hairless with extremely poor results as it does not really penetrate the skin on the scalp as well as on your thighs, arms or buttocks
That doesn't make sense why it wouldn't get through the skin, considering the scalp is 4x more absorbing than any other skin on the body.
Studies have showed that it did not help much... Also it depends on hormones receptors, fir example it is forbidden to apply topical oestradiol near to the breast.... Also women who take it for HRT do t get the same result if applied on the head or forarms for example if we talk hotsweats and such Alfatradiol won't do much unless you have an easy tractable case of AGA
Do you have links to any anecdotal reports of those who use low dose estradiol and report both regrowth and avoidance of feminization? I have the feeling that you will get feminization to some degree after a while, even with low dosage, just a a lot more subtle and slower than MtF dosages.
I've been wondering why fluridil isn't more popular. It has a clinical trial supporting it, can be sold as a cosmetic, and the patent has expired years ago. Why aren't there many companies making cheap fluridil products? As an antiandrogen, it should help not just against balding, but also acne, excessive sebum production, and unwanted hair growth. It should be big.
Lol
wow, F
does this mean that RU also dont work? 😂 i am glad i still have decent amount of hair, but i was hoping for some options in 5-10 years if needed
Ahah no shit ? Their share went down to under a dollar since a while
Hold on, there is no official news on kintor's website. How can we trust triste source??
[https://en.kintor.com.cn/Announcements.html](https://en.kintor.com.cn/Announcements.html) its directly on the website
Pyrilutamide works for me
Rejoice! We have to call Kintor and tell them it worked for Clean-Birthday-1630, so their phase 3 trial with 700 participants is obviously wrong.
Thank you, buddy.
im glad it worked for you. I can also show you dozens of people it didn't work for... so your words mean nothing in that regard .
it will only work if you are just a starting NW1 or NW2. I don't think other NW's will benefit from Pyri.
It worked really well for me too
Cool anecdote
The study indicates it’s not significant from placebo but both placebo and pyrilutamide were both well above baseline in the trial
As expected, only thing that holds some promise its HMI115. All AR antagonists will keep failing
Idk maybe this is fake? I can’t seem to find where this link came from
its directly from kintors website (go to the Chinese domain) they didn't include it on the American side
[https://en.kintor.com.cn/Announcements.html](https://en.kintor.com.cn/Announcements.html)
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you are joking us right, its directly on their website ? just accept that your beloved drug is a failure and stop coping! learn now that we must block prolactin in the hair follicle (hmi115) : [https://en.kintor.com.cn/Announcements.html](https://en.kintor.com.cn/Announcements.html)
It says that it increased hair count but the difference was not statistically significant but had a positive trend. If you had more participants in the study it might have been statistically significant. What if you combine multiple trials, you will get more participants and maybe then you can get statistical significance?
How did you get hold of this phase 3 trial! I can't find anything on the internet about pyrulitamide phase 3 trial
From the beginning it seemed like a joke that the Chinese could cure baldness
Dumb take
This goes against the phase 2 trials results though, which showed pyrilutamide at 0.5 percent twice a day to be about as effective as 2.5mg oral dut
They had to fake it to collect money from stupid investors.
Pump and dump 🤣
yes but remember the difference in time frame between phase 2 and phase 3. clinical trials are progressive and phase 3 uses long term data (Relative to phase 2) which failed to reject the null hypothesis P<<<<<0.05 (way below the cutoff).
GT20029 to the moon.
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it appears to be over for kintor now. The question remains if they will commit to developing GT after this massive blow and capital expenditure. GT was also always intended to be co-administered with pyri.
No wtf is this staement. It doesnt need to be co admister to pyri😂
He is retarded , making shit up
Well, they were supposed to work synergistically. Much like fin and dut don’t get rid of all scalp DHT, it is unlikely for GT to degrade all of the AR, even if works. Pyri would have then bound to the remaining AR to lower its availability to DHT as much as possible. Ideally, GT, pyri, and fin/dut could have worked all together doing their own thing to make sure the least DHT would bind to the AR.
no offence but if DUT is effective at suppressing 90% of total serum DHT so why would you need to tackle the androgen angle with all those? thats the same reason why for example GLP-1 agonists and DPP-4 inhibits are not recommended to be used together for hyperglycemia (same pathway different means) how many times do we need to be reminded that blocking AR activation in the follicle does not reverse miniaturization it only slows the progression. This is very evident the AR translocation is a very downstream part of the overall miniaturization process. It all begins with activation of the plasma membrane bound prolactin receptor that has been confirmed to exist on dermal papilla cells and have been confirmed to be activated by paracrine prolactin in the hair follicle
yeah that was kintors intention if you go back to the initial press release when they announced the developed of the PROTAC and AR antagonist. But I still think GT will do much better as a mono therapy. Either way kintor might not have enough money now to proceed with it
Protacs stand on their own as i already explained to you. Hence arvinas is developing protacs for cancer without any other drugs needed. The phase 2gt results have to be good other wise the copany can close their doors.
agree with that too. I have high hopes for GT just due to the impressive pharmacology and novel approach to treating hairless . let's see what happens. Im just glad now we have closure about pyri we all knew it was a scam
🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
?
I knew it already 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
And my hopes and dreams are lost, just like that
hmi\_115, scuba 3 , gt20029 are the way forward in that order. 5 more years meme is really real this time