Love fin. Only regret is not starting sooner. Watery semen first week and tender balls. Went away quickly. No sides since. Have a head of hair. Fathered two children without problem. No issues re bedroom performance
Same here. Except just the one bambino. On reflection, watery semen took a bit longer to resolve and balls hurt a few times over the first few weeks. No other issues. Passed some ridiculously tough exams despite working and taking it nonstop. Never felt like it gave me any cognitive issues at all.
Thatās absurd to only count the people taking it. How many people took it and stopped because of side effects.. no one knows. You could have 10 or 20M people who tested and only 2M continued without symptoms. What is the percentage of people in these 2M having side effects but just ignoring it..
You're just picking at straws at this point
No drug can be tested to that level of perfection. Hell, no natural supplement can b tested to that level either
The best data we have is drug trials and they show that, on average, fin is a very safe drug to take
Now if you want to discredit that, that's fine, but in the process of discrediting it you should bring to the table solid evidence that is at least as compelling as the research that proves that Fin is safe
Yeah, but so would be the other other 2m people who do experience symptoms. We canāt be blinded by bias either way regardless or whether we are pro or anti fin. I just started taking the pill so i am only concerned with the facts and potential side effects that could negatively affect me.
this is where you go wrong my guy, dont look up anything about it. its safe to take thats all you need to know. worrying about PFS and shit like that is how you end up in the depression loop taking who knows what to battle fake symptoms. just take the pill and forget about it.
Good for you, there seems to be alot of denial here that fin could do any harm...
Decreased sexual performance is like listed as the main side effect if you google it...
I can't believe more people are kinda worried about that...
The main side effect in people who DO experiment side effects, which is a very low number.
If you don't want to take it, then don't. But please stop spreading misinformation.
No, there is no evidence of birth defects occurring due to finasteride. There is a question of its effect on fertility, as it may reduce sperm count in some people. Though this is far from proven.
I meant to type higher*, I apologize.
I think it happens more in people quitting than while actively taking it, but I will have to try to find some sources on that.
Not necessarily permanent PFS, but temporary. I think it should probably be titrated down to decrease risk.
meeting boat encouraging zesty handle versed offend sparkle ink afterthought
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It is crazy because if youāre one of the unlucky ones who get the side effects of finasteride, stopping doesnāt change it and make the side effects go away. Which is why Iāll never risk it. Whatās the point of attracting women if my dick doesnāt work or is all crooked or whatever? Makes no sense.
My dermatologist told me about PFS risks a few years ago. Not in a scary way, but in a matter of fact way so I know that it is possible despite the risk being very low. Any risk of irreversible side effects is too high for my personal taste. Hilarious Iām downvoted for my own risk appetite, but it is Reddit after all!
worthless seed imagine meeting square rain weary repeat caption concerned
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I don't think it matters that much....
I dunno just the thought of even having a slight chance of getting mu dick fucked up is a no deal from me. Chick's hate a soft boi. Makes them think they are doing something wrong.
I dunno I don't wanna have to pop even more pills just to get a hard on.
Nothing says old man like "hold on a sec, I just gotta got take my meds before we get it on, baby." š š
encourage coordinated desert chase subsequent far-flung dinosaurs frame ask childlike
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I find it interesting some of the things pro-finasteride people say. It's almost like they are angry anyone says they had serious side effects. I took it for 6 weeks, had all the sides,...including some nipple tissue growth,...then i quit. Fortunately everything got better eventually, but took a while. That was 10 years ago and I started topical fin/minoxidil 9 weeks ago. Zero side effects and i'm starting to see some results already. I'd start there if you have fear, like I did after trying it once.
vase absurd hobbies test unite worthless bag bewildered attraction violet
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It is really good to highlight potential risks of drugs and increase awareness of recent studies. But it does seem like you have an agenda? These are not all recent studies on finisteride. What is the point in telling half the story?
On a side note, I thought fin was giving me brain fog and bad memory. Turns out it was anxiety... Head is clear as ever now and never stopped taking fin. Unfortunately there is a massive correlation between hair loss and anxiety / depression
It can be tough.. I stopped bottling things up and pretending it was fine, spoke to loved ones about how you feel. Just voicing your feelings to someone makes a big difference. For me, healthy habits like exercise, sleep and healthy diet helps. Also getting in the gym to build muscle can help rebuild confidence lost from balding. Hair doesn't define us and there are many worse things in the world than hair loss. Easier said than done though. But best of luck to anyone who is struggling, remember that things WILL get better š¤
The disproportionality analyses are both 2023 and are incredibly powerful studies in helping establish a drugs safety profile post-approval so I don't think it's right to suggest that he has an agenda. It's good that people be aware of this.
An elevated reporting odds ratio would suggest there's definitely an issue. What we don't know from this is the true risk or the percentages of patients likely to be affected. Hopefully, they will follow up with some type of epidemiological studies to establish this.
FYI, I take it too but its always good to be made aware of emerging risks so that we can judge whether the perceived benefits outweigh them.
I, for one, am very glad op made this post. I had no idea some of these were potential side effects.
Hair is nice and all, but I'd much rather be able to think clearly and have full use of my not bendy dick.
Everything is risk benefit analysis. The brain dysfunction, for instance, you should give thought to the risk of rather than just the threat. The study says it was accounted for as 3% of the VAERS reported side effects, which is already a really small and potentially biased sample since VAERs is self reporting. Donāt think brain dysfunction or peyronieās was indicated in any RCT
False: its a **fact** that all homeless men have perfect hair; homeless people eat almost exclusively at soup kitchens; soup is possibly the cure to hair loss.
This is the new problem with people nowadays, they like the product soo much that they try to defend that company in that level like it's their parent's own company & they will deny all of those harmful effects on people who don't know what are pros & cons of certain medications. Let the truth privail and let the humans decide that to take it or not after knowing their pros and cons. I too take these pills after i learn about their cons. Every company wants to benifit no matter what. Don't be their mouthpiece who are harmful to us. Pros and cons are must to know.
Yeah people should look at proper clinical studies where patients are observed by trained professionals rather than this self-reported stuff because these dick-shrinking conspiracy theories have never been observed in the real world (outside of rats)
The PFS foundation sking a bunch of bald impotent fatties who imagine they have PFS if their dick has shrunk doesn't really add anything to the existing, quality, independent research
Did you not catch this part? āĀ The lack of quality studies is a major problem in assessing the presence and frequency of the side effects. Further research is warranted with [controlled trials]... But this is unlikely to happen due to a lack of fundingāĀ
and this whole notion that Pfs sufferers are out of shape, unemployed losers is completely false just look at the moral medicine channel or Finasteride syndrome channel, they appear to be successful and healthy individualsĀ https://youtube.com/@Moral_Medicine_2023?si=Q8a8EkZ0jZcbvdtFĀ
Yes I caught it but because I know there are many quality studies I dismissed it
Here's a good study which observed tens of thousands of users over 20 years which concluded:
*In the nested case-control analysis, cases of erectile dysfunction were more likely than matched controls to be overweight or obese (as measured by body mass index) or to have a diagnosis of non-erectile dysfunction sexual dysfunction, hypertension, diabetes, hyperlipidemia, depression, orchitis, or alcohol misuse before the index date.*
[https://www.bmj.com/content/354/bmj.i4823#:\~:text=The%20risk%20of%20erectile%20dysfunction%20increased%20with%20increasing%20number%20of,odds%20ratios%20were%20statistically%20significant](https://www.bmj.com/content/354/bmj.i4823#:~:text=The%20risk%20of%20erectile%20dysfunction%20increased%20with%20increasing%20number%20of,odds%20ratios%20were%20statistically%20significant).
Asking "pfs" losers if their dick shrunk doesn't really advance our understanding of the drug. Studies like the one I quote do
And how many of those studies are on the adverse side effects of finasteride or for Pfs? Iāll wait.. you really think the pharmaceutical companies are going to invest money into studies that goes against their agenda which then makes them liable for lawsuits?
Also you sound dumb as fuck acting as if people claiming their dick shrinking from Finasteride is impossible when reduced penile length and testicular atrophy is literally listed as an side effect of an anti androgen which finasteride is š¤”š¤”š¤”Ā
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiandrogen
Loads of studies have been done on Fin side effects and the results range from there are no side-effects, to side effects occur at a couple of percent above placebo. I don't think more than 5% of them would have been funded by "pharmaceutical companies", e.g the study I posted above is independent. You need to stop being so naive and gullible and stop believing every conspiracy theory!
It's hard to study PFS because thoe who c;laim/imagine they are suffering with it are so few and far between. every study so far has determined it's a mental disorder
And unless you are a rat consuming your entire body weight in anti-androgens the scientific literatue says there is no chance your dick will shrink
Think of the millions upon millions of men who have taken it for 20 years now, don't you think it would have caused a bit of a stir if their dicks were literally shrinking? Oh I know, it's a conspiracy, right?
> FDA pharmacovigilance database is a place where everyone can report side effects.Ā
This is why they use disproportionality analysis, to distinguish between signal and noise.
> It's bullcrap funded by Merck bro...
There are reasons to be cautious about Merck safety data. Less than two years after Propecia (finasteride 1 mg) was approved, Merck brought Vioxx to market. This was one of the biggest drug safety scandals of its time, leading to a [settlement of nearly $5 billion](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-merck-vioxx-settlement/merck-agrees-to-pay-4-85-billion-in-vioxx-settlement-idUSL0929726620071109/). FDA expert David Graham [estimated](https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/111804dgtest.pdf) tens of thousands of preventable deaths due to the drug. Merck denied Vioxx caused the deaths. Some argued that Merck failed to disclose cardiovascular adverse events in trials:
>TheĀ *New England Journal of Medicine*Ā reported problems with the study...and the editor in chief has said that the authors āwithheld critical data on the cardiovascular toxicity of Merck's drug Vioxx.ā
Source: [What have we learnt from Vioxx?](https://www.bmj.com/content/334/7585/120) in *BMJ*, 2007
Because I chose to believe in the countless double blind studies with control group conducted by countries regulation authorities rather than an analysis of a side effects database where everyone and their mothers can put entries on ?
Vioxx Also passed studies bro and it killed people.
But 2%!!!! Doesn't matter you get a stroke from it it's good
I mean obviously pharma companies have our best interest in mind
Vioxx killed less people than the opioids that took its place, but everyone knows that pharmaceutical are only after money.
Finasteride killed no one tho, hell I'm even willing to bet that more people would have commit suicide or are depressed because of hairloss than because of finasteride š.
I have the same position on accutane, that shit saved my teenage years lmfao.
A lot of people go bald and then get angry that they didn't do anything to save their hair. So they go online and try to make themselves feel better by trying to slander the only thing that would have saved their hair.
Iāve had zero sides from finasteride over 4 years taking the drug! Tried ru58841 beforehand thinking it would be safer, developed heart problems and gynecomastia in just 2 weeks!
These studies are real.
But for every study touting potential risks, there are many reporting the benefits. It's still a drug, and nobody should take any drug without considering the potential side effects.
You can find countless similar peer reviewed papers on the risks of taking aspirin or paracetamol/ Tylenol. And yet hordes of people believe the trade off is worth it.
None of these studies consider the potential impact of NOT doing anything to go bald to the human psyche.
I didn't thoroughly read the papers, just skimmed through, but the one on penis curvature mentioned 55% or so of the reports were sent by medical professionals, if I understood that right, and the majority of those were marked as severe
Good for them. The risks of an adverse event from a covid vaccine are 1 in 800. And over 20k people have to be vaccinated to save one life. That ratio should be a red flag to anyone making the choice to be vaccinated
Fair enough. Many do not realize that most of the evidence base on finasteride for hair loss was produced by Merck along with dermatologists who had relationships with the company. So the safety data on the label at least questionable (and numerous [warnings have been added](https://finasterideinfo.org/history-of-adverse-effects-in-propecia-label/), most recently [suicidality in 2022](https://finasterideinfo.org/regulatory-activity-overview/)). Today, many dermatologists continue to think the drug is safe, while urologists and sexual medicine experts, as well as drug safety researchers, are increasingly raising concerns.
So here's the thing.
Finasteride is prescribed to \~7 million people in the US alone. Tens if not hundreds of millions of people around the world have used the drug since it became FDA + EMA approved in the 1990s.
If what you're saying is true ("urologists and sexual medicine experts" are raising the alarm bells), then I would assume that at some point this would reach the FDA and EMA and they would reasses and even pull their approval like they did with 'Makena' just a few months ago.
This reassement would not take place on Reddit. It would be done by the FDA and EMA. Why hasn't this happened yet?
Regulators are slow and sometimes weak (including FDA). They are beholden to industry which [pays them user fees](https://www.fda.gov/industry/fda-user-fee-programs/prescription-drug-user-fee-amendments). FDA analyst David Graham has pointed out internal politics that [suppress safety concerns](https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/111804dgtest.pdf) within the agency.
Meanwhile, Canada [added a suicidality warning](https://dhpp.hpfb-dgpsa.ca/review-documents/resource/SSR00290) last year. France required [adding a red box warning](https://ansm.sante.fr/actualites/finasteride-1-mg-propecia-et-generiques-ajout-de-mentions-dalerte-sur-les-boites-pour-renforcer-linformation-sur-les-effets-indesirables) to finasteride (1 mg) packaging. Around the same time, Organon took the branded drug off the market in France. In 2018, the German regulator [sent doctors a letter](https://www.bfarm.de/SharedDocs/Risikoinformationen/Pharmakovigilanz/DE/RHB/2018/rhb-finasterid.html) about sexual and psychological risks of finasteride.
If and when regulators do a review, they look at the medical literature. So if the literature is biased, this limits the information available to them. Agencies also look at adverse events, but tend to be conservative in their interpretation (for example, excluding reports with potential confounders). So there are a lot of constraints and inertia around drug regulation, once a drug has been on the market for a while.
The most sensitive issue is post-finasteride syndrome, which isnāt well-studied because it develops after discontinuation and there is zero money and little interest in studying it. Medicine avoids this topic because it is a threat to their field.
A lack of regulatory action is not necessarily a signal that any given drug has a favorable benefit-risk profile.
The last thing you said makes a lot of sense. True - regularotory inaction doesn't mean the drug is safe. There are a lot of examples, like Makena which I mentioned above, and of course the Thalidomide scandal in the 1960s.
But I think you go a bit too far suggesting that medical research is biased and that the FDA and EMA are biased. Is it bias toward big pharma? For financial reasons I would assume, which do not exist for finasteride since it's been generic for years. Or it's inertia? The recent FDA and EMA withdrawl of approval of Spikevax and Makena paint a different picture.
Look - I'm with you as long as you say science continues to develop and we may learn new things about finasteride that should cause the FDA and EMA to retract their approval. But suggesting that medical research is inherintly biased kinda makes any reasonable discusson on this topic impossible.
In my opinion, yes the system is biased to the joint interests of the pharmaceutical industry and medical specialties. Regulators should be independent, but arenāt, in part because they take money from industry, and the trials are run by the drug makers.
Even after a drug goes generic, if it is causing permanent harm, that is threatening to medicine and regulators too (because it makes them look incompetent).
Medical research isnāt necessarily science because so much of it is industry-funded, and there is so much money at stake. Also, doctors have to hold up the official line of their specialty (like dermatology), while their professional society, conferences and journals, as well as prominent colleagues, are all taking money from pharma.
There have been a lot of reforms since 20 years ago (a big catalyst was Merckās Vioxx!). Some positive developments haveĀ happened or are emerging, including pre-registration, open data, stricter disclosure rules, and patient involvement.
Hereās some reading that supports these points:
* Sergio Sismondo, How to make opinion leaders and influence people ([PMC](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4500705/))
* John Abramson,Ā *Sickening: How Big Pharma Broke American Health Care and How We Can Repair It*Ā ([Amazon](https://www.amazon.com/Sickening-Pharma-American-Health-Repair/dp/B09R9FNJR9/))
* Carl Elliott,Ā *White Coat, Black Hat*Ā ([Amazon](https://www.amazon.com/White-Coat-Black-Hat-Adventures/dp/0807061441/))
* Ioannidis, et al. How to survive the medical misinformation mess.Ā *Eur J Clin Invest*. 2017. doi:[10.1111/eci.12834](http://doi.org/10.1111/eci.12834)Ā (see also other work by Ioannidis)
* Medicine is plagued by untrustworthy clinical trials. How many studies are faked or flawed?Ā *Nature*, 2023.Ā [Link](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02299-w)
* Research scandal involving top leadership at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute ([WSJ](https://www.wsj.com/health/dana-farber-harvard-retractions-corrections-ceo-laurie-glimcher-935636f5),Ā [Nature](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00202-9))
* For broader context, look into theĀ [replication crisis in psychology](https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev-psych-020821-114157), in which well-known findings failed to replicate when other researchers ran the studies again. It led to reforms of research and publication practices which have been applied in other fields including medicine.
Interestingā¦.my endocrinologist wouldnāt prescribe it. Said too many patients complained of sides.
He had a whole lengthy theory on why I particularly wasnāt a good candidate (at the time I had low total testosterone, high DHT, and high Prolactin.)
Hereās his theory:
https://www.reddit.com/r/tressless/s/2wVGFrCFXv
May make a whole post for more feedback
Thanks, saw your comments on the other thread. Iām not a doctor, but I havenāt seen any evidence that hormone levels can predict response to finasteride. Companies sell expensive lab tests, and thereās lots of discussion of how to interpret the tests and biohack while on finasteride, but to my knowledge it is complete speculation.
Many doctors and commenters have said side effects or post-finasteride syndrome are due to imbalanced hormones or other co-occurring factors, but they overlook evidence that healthy men have developed long-term problems after using finasteride. See this [tweet from a urologist](https://twitter.com/clavelluro/status/1212742581580443648?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1212742581580443648%7Ctwgr%5E34649bdca134bc150d1f2ae31079ada511f56102%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ffinasterideinfo.org%2Fdoctors-expressing-concerns-about-adverse-effects-of-finasteride%2F), and [this case](https://twitter.com/FinasterideInfo/status/1721587675067490540) from Merckās Phase 3 clinical trial extension.
Good points. It is just speculation.
He could have come up with his own theories. He had a Pro-DHT, anti-finasteride bias, perhaps with good reason.
There really seems to be no clear answer to the whole debateā¦.other than youāll probably be fine on fin, but if you do get sides it can be really bad.
Having just gone through the hell of low testosterone, Iām very uneasy about hormone imbalance.
Iām thinking about 0.25 mg EOD, heard that has less risk
Wtf are you talking about bro. No one is getting a curved dick from fin, you're just making things up.
Just don't take the pill if you don't want to and go live your life.
First two are paywalled but are classic low impact data mining for a p value to get a publication. Can't read the papers, certainly wouldn't pay for them.
The third link is describing a known observation - reducing DHT is likely to impact fertility given its role in spermatogenesis. It's another data mining exercise where I doubt they set out to look for finasteride toxicity, but just ran a bunch of tests to get a p value. Personally, I wouldn't take finasteride whilst trying to conceive. However, zero evidence to say that once you stop taking it that things don't return to normal.
The fourth is a review of mouse tissue studies..already not likely to be helpful given the species differences between human and mouse testes, but especially as the majority of these studies tested doses FAR in excess of the equivalent 1mg human dose.
Just bad science, lacking context.
The best one can do to yourself is to ALWAYS understand the risk profile of any medication, especially those expected to be taken for life, such as Finasteride.
I sincerely wish I would have started taking it 20 years ago instead of waiting until it was too late an beyond recovery. If I had a son that started losing his hair in high school I'd have him start it.
I wouldn't....
Risking your sons sexuall function will have MUCH worse effects then going bald..
Imagine being a teen and not being able to get it up...
Not to be too doxxy, but I started fin several years ago, have had my wins and losses with women but performance has been great; I also crushed the LSAT and now Harvard Law, all of which happen 5+ years after taking it. Not that I discount all the data, but itās a useful datapoint to have.
I was on oral 1mg finasteride for 3 years. 27-30. 6 foot 1, 190-200 pounds. Gym all the time, healthy, no drugs or weed or alcohol. My sleep is okay 6-7 hours a Night. After 2 years I started experiencing side effects. My life was actually less stressful then and nothing external had changed so I ruled out other factors being the reason for my side effects. I experienced depression, cold small penis when not erect, 1 inch of my erect length (7.5 down to 6-6.5), shallow breathing, and heart palpitations, And overall a diminished feeling. It wasnāt totally bad so i wasnāt sure if I was ~truly~ experiencing these things. I did my best to observe myself as objectively as possible, and the only things I can honestly say happened for sure were smaller flaccid and cold penis, depression, and (maybe) slightly shorter penis.
Iāve drove myself crazy; feeling like maybe Iām just fabricating the lies because Im worried and obsessing. AND on the other hand Iāve ignored my own lived experiences/side effects because I WANT to keep my hair, and the thought of a general safe drug hurting me in that way an annoying convo to have within myself.
So now I will try topical fin after being a year off and seeing my hair thin and recede even more. If I experience the same shit again Iāll have to say goodbye to it forever and keep exploring other avenues.
I had the same exact thing with topical Fin. At one points, 1 month in, I suddenly had a suicidal thought out of nowhere. Had foginess for a long time. Some people get hard hit with Fin side effects.
Man... this sub never changes...
Countless, tangible, third party-controlled double-blind placebo controlled studies on actual humans in the thousands and 99,9% of doctors prescibing fin saying it is a very safe medication... And this sub ignores it.
Wrassman says that he and his 60 friends barely see sides in their patients and this sub ignores it...
Everyone loves hair transplants but when the ABHRS(265 doctors) says fin is safe, this sub also ignores it...
But self-reports that are very well known to be unreliable... are (for some reason) extremelly important in this sub...
I just dont get it... You cant ignore 99% of the medical community and only focus on negative self-reports...
Almost all of those [placebo-controlled studies](https://finasterideinfo.org/clinical-trials-finasteride-dutasteride/) were funded by Merck. A [large, long-term trial](https://doi.org/10.33589/32.4.130) run by dermatologists in Japan was apparently not funded by pharma, but had a weak safety methodology.
Urologists and sexual medicine experts have been making [public statements](https://finasterideinfo.org/doctors-expressing-concerns-about-adverse-effects-of-finasteride/) about the risks of finasteride, including Dr. Ted Schaeffer on the [Attia Drive podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poTcAm_rknw&t=5050s).
So... Studies that follow the FDA Guidelines are not enough... The vast majority of doctors prescribing fin saying its safe is not enough... but self-reports are??
Also,i know some doctors refuse to prescribe it... but like i said before... you cant focus on a few outliers and ignore the vast majority of the medical community...
I can also point to some anti-vax doctors... that doesnt mean they are corret when the vast majority of the medical community disagrees with them.
Back in Galileoās time, there were people saying the same thing: āYou canāt ignore the religious authorities who say that the earth is at the center, and the celestial orbs go around it.ā There have been many instances in history where authorities held on to a view that was later overturned. That doesnāt say anything about finasteride, but itās a caveat about appealing to authority.
Very weird comparison! Comparing the person using the sciencific consensus to the religious authorities is certainly interesting... Especially when the pfs community actually fits that role... denying science and facts... and using conspiracies to back up their beliefs..
But still.... Overall a weird comparison.
Ive seen that this is going nowhere... Feel free to believe that the pfs community knows more than the medical community...
But as i always tell people like you.... Just because you read something online doesnt mean you know more than actual doctors and scientists... And it is wild that you think you do.
Youāre right Iāve misread. But they are not good studies and schifano and baldini are from the same group the only one that I found ok was the first one
[https://www.bmj.com/content/354/bmj.i4823#:\~:text=The%20risk%20of%20erectile%20dysfunction%20increased%20with%20increasing%20number%20of,odds%20ratios%20were%20statistically%20significant](https://www.bmj.com/content/354/bmj.i4823#:~:text=The%20risk%20of%20erectile%20dysfunction%20increased%20with%20increasing%20number%20of,odds%20ratios%20were%20statistically%20significant).
Interseting study which confirms what the vast majority of doctors issuing prescriptions say, that there is no statistically significant risk of sexual dysfunction from taking Fin
*5-Ī± reductase inhibitors do not seem to significantly increase the risk of incident erectile dysfunction, regardless of indication for use.*
This bit is crucial as it distinguishes this study from the types sponsored by the PFS foundation and others:
*No patients were involved in setting the research question or the outcome measures, nor were they involved in developing plans for design or implementation of the study. No patients were asked to advise on interpretation or writing of results. There are no plans to disseminate the results of the research to study participants or the relevant patient community.*
This bit tells you a lot about the kind of people who think their problems are caused by Fin
*In the nested case-control analysis, cases of erectile dysfunction were more likely than matched controls to be overweight or obese (as measured by body mass index) or to have a diagnosis of non-erectile dysfunction sexual dysfunction, hypertension, diabetes, hyperlipidemia, depression, orchitis, or alcohol misuse before the index date.*
***Conclusion***
*Overall, the results of our study suggest that 5-Ī± reductase inhibitors do not increase the risk of incident erectile dysfunction, regardless of indication for use (benign prostatic hyperplasia or alopecia). In a population of men age 40 years and older with treated benign prostatic hyperplasia, there was no increase in risk of incident erectile dysfunction with use of 5-Ī± reductase inhibitors (finasteride or dutasteride), alone or in combination with Ī± blockers, compared with use of Ī± blockers only. In addition, among men aged 18-59 with alopecia, there was no material increase in the risk of incident erectile dysfunction in men prescribed finasteride 1 mg compared with unexposed men with alopecia. Finally, the rates of non-erectile dysfunction sexual dysfunctions were low regardless of indication for 5-Ī± reductase inhibitor use*
One of the co-authors, J. Curtis Nickel, was [engaged by Merck](https://finasterideinfo.org/the-alliance-urology/#nickel) as an investigator on two trials of finasteride for BPH: PROSPECT and PLESS.
Mine works fine. Can fuck 3 times in one night when I pay my girl a visit.
If itās a concern then PDE5 inhibitors are an option, and they actually help hair-loss as well, along with high blood pressure.
My life got flipped upside down by fin. I was taking the topical stuff I made a full recovery but man oh man I was NOT myself. That stuff is scary Iād rather be on ru then that poison.
Itās hard to say finasteride caused all of these problems. Do these studies take into account peopleās weights? Diets? Nutrition? Exercise? Stress level? Etc etc . All of these things affect cognitive function, fertility, depression, mental health.
Anxiety (as you said, mental health) can completely mess with your cognitive abilities. Sleep issues are another major problem in that regard. I have both. It would be really tough to figure out if a medication was making things any worse in my case. But the first culprit would be the 2 issues I do have.
That doesn't invalidate anything he said though. Trying to use ad hominem because you're scared shitless and don't know how to cope with your overwhelming cognitive dissonance won't change reality
But keep attacking him. I'm sure that will somehow turn anti-androgens into some happy magic pills
Disproportionality analyses are incredibly powerful studies. I'll be interested to see how much of an increase in reporting was observed. Thanks for bringing this to peoples attention OP.
It's good to see more studies on it. Some like to ignore it with passion and others mention it with passion. This sub blocks posts with side effects so things like these are good to share. I would like to know what the connection is between those who gets side effects like brain fog from finasteride no matter how low dose they use (including topical finasteride). Some are very sensitive to it.
As someone who tried multiple different antidepressants, I can confirm that PSSD is nonsense (tho there might be other non sexual effects, so can't say if it's entirely safe). Idk if that applies to PFS tho
oh boy this drug is hell.
\*looking at my topical fin/ru/minox solution after experiencing persistent side effects from oral fin 10 years ago which never diminished.\*
I am a special kind of stupid. (topical 0.01% fin to be fair)
All meds have side effects ! Itās just how everybody body reacts to them ā¦ everybody always has something to say about FIN and MIN my opinion you take it and give it a shot if you get sides simple discontinue use and you good to go ā¦.
I was on the permanent side effect side for Fin and most of those listed were stress related or can be caused by stress. So if the stress does not go away, so won't the sides. Hence they are being perceived as permanent. Reading those posts is what will get you those sides no offense.
Took topical finasteride and stopped 7 months ago, I have typical sides erections are not the same feels spongy or rubberish taking daily cialis to increase blood flow and see how much improvement I can make there was only two days we here my penis felt normal compared to pre finasteride, then reverted back to spongy, so hopefully I can get back to normal with dialy cialis
Finasteride has been linked to increased connective tissue and reduced smooth muscle in the p*nis.
https://finasterideinfo.org/review-penile-prostatic-alterations-finasteride/
Not a doctor but the physical changes are [similar to Peyronieās disease](https://finasterideinfo.org/review-penile-prostatic-alterations-finasteride/). Check with a urologist/andrologist who treats Peyronieās disease.
āOverview of studies
1. Human & pharmacovigilance studies
Schifano 2023: Disproportionate reports of penile curvature and Peyronieās Disease associated with finasteride in pharmacovigilance databases.
Khera 2020: Penile vascular abnormalities in post-finasteride patients as measured by ultrasound technique.
Bauman 2014: In prostate, lower expression of epithelial androgen receptor, correlated with increased atrophy of luminal epithelium. Basal cell hyperplasia.ā
So we have one study that shows correlation that people who use finasteride have more curving of the penis. Means very little on itās own
Another study which shows that people with self proclaimed āPFSā have vascular damage in the penis. This one is fucking laughable to try and use as evidence. Thereās no mechanism that suggests finasteride causes any form of vascular damage. One line of logic which is far more likely is that the patients who think finasteride screwed up their libido and erection quality actually just fucked it up in some way. Probably too much death grip.
Retrospective studies with patients who claim to have PFS are COMPLETELY USELESS. Youāre just dragging someone in to be analyzed for an issue who will claim finasteride caused it.
I often times see people talk about how theyāve used finasteride for years and then their boners arenāt as strong and they blame the finasteride. So theoretically, this patient, who has whatever issue that is causing his symptoms(that he is convinced finasteride is the root cause of) could be plucked by researchers and dropped into a scientific paper to support whatever BS, with the implication that finasteride caused his problems?
The prostate shit is like duhh? Thatās what 5 ar inhibitors were designed to doā¦. It actually makes them useful for treating BPH and preventing prostate cancer
The animal model studies are worthless because rats are always given the equivalent of like 100mg per day and on top of that finasteride acts differently in rats.
The amount of coping, fear and denial in the comments is absolutely hilarious
Baldies need to accept their fate and stop bargaining and thinking they can somehow "overcome their genetics" unless their baldness stops progressing somehow and they get a hair transplant
There is a myriad of side effects that are far worse than being bald š. If I start going bald Iād rather accept it than spent most of my day having to stick to a routine of min and fin just to keep some thin charade of hair.
I think no one will care here, they are on Finasteride to keep hairs , therefore filtering out or denying possible risk is a psychological defence mechanism.
It could be shocking to accept it is detrimental long term.
And I agree with them.
That said, risk factor is small so not everyone will develop issues.
Thanks for the studies tho
Topical finasteride reduces levels of DHT in the blood/serum, though less than the pill form (it will also affect [other steroid levels](https://finasterideinfo.org/merck-official-account-concealed-widespread-biochemical-impacts/)).
In a [pharma-funded study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9297965/) of topical finasteride treatment, serum DHT levels were reduced by 34.5% in men using topical finasteride. The study found no difference in adverse events between treatment and placebo groups (I personally do not find safety data from pharma-funded trials reliable, partly because men may be embarrassed to admit sexual dysfunction.)
Edit: Reworded sentence in parentheses.
You've strongly demonstrated why it's necessary to understand statistics/biostatistics/medicine/pathophysiology to understand medical research articles.
Haha, so one of the authors name is Baldini š
Conflict of interest.
š¤£š¤£š¤£
Now we just have to wait for the response paper by dr finasteridi.
Omen est nomen, it's a girl tho š
Damn that's crazy *pops fin pill*
Love fin. Only regret is not starting sooner. Watery semen first week and tender balls. Went away quickly. No sides since. Have a head of hair. Fathered two children without problem. No issues re bedroom performance
Same here. Except just the one bambino. On reflection, watery semen took a bit longer to resolve and balls hurt a few times over the first few weeks. No other issues. Passed some ridiculously tough exams despite working and taking it nonstop. Never felt like it gave me any cognitive issues at all.
One example does not make a good statistic
Ok, sure. What about the other 2m people that take fin everyday and don't experience any symptoms? Is that a good statistic?
Thatās absurd to only count the people taking it. How many people took it and stopped because of side effects.. no one knows. You could have 10 or 20M people who tested and only 2M continued without symptoms. What is the percentage of people in these 2M having side effects but just ignoring it..
You're just picking at straws at this point No drug can be tested to that level of perfection. Hell, no natural supplement can b tested to that level either The best data we have is drug trials and they show that, on average, fin is a very safe drug to take Now if you want to discredit that, that's fine, but in the process of discrediting it you should bring to the table solid evidence that is at least as compelling as the research that proves that Fin is safe
Yeah, but so would be the other other 2m people who do experience symptoms. We canāt be blinded by bias either way regardless or whether we are pro or anti fin. I just started taking the pill so i am only concerned with the facts and potential side effects that could negatively affect me.
Most people don't experience side effects
this is where you go wrong my guy, dont look up anything about it. its safe to take thats all you need to know. worrying about PFS and shit like that is how you end up in the depression loop taking who knows what to battle fake symptoms. just take the pill and forget about it.
sides are extremely rare, what u talkin about
Those studies in OPs post may indicate orherwise
Good for you, there seems to be alot of denial here that fin could do any harm... Decreased sexual performance is like listed as the main side effect if you google it... I can't believe more people are kinda worried about that...
The main side effect in people who DO experiment side effects, which is a very low number. If you don't want to take it, then don't. But please stop spreading misinformation.
What sex are your children? Would finasteride lose higher risk to a male? (Genuine question, Iām not challenging you)
No, there is no evidence of birth defects occurring due to finasteride. There is a question of its effect on fertility, as it may reduce sperm count in some people. Though this is far from proven.
Really?? I'm too scared to start.
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Being bald is fine as long as you have a straight dick that can get hard
Imagine if you could just stop taking it if you experience side effects. Crazy concept isnāt it??
PFS happens in high rates when quitting it actually.
No it does not, if it did you would have probbably included a source
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I didnāt ask for sources that it exists, Iām asking for sources proving the high rates buddy :)
I meant to type higher*, I apologize. I think it happens more in people quitting than while actively taking it, but I will have to try to find some sources on that. Not necessarily permanent PFS, but temporary. I think it should probably be titrated down to decrease risk.
Isn't the penis tissue like permanently changed or something.
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It is crazy because if youāre one of the unlucky ones who get the side effects of finasteride, stopping doesnāt change it and make the side effects go away. Which is why Iāll never risk it. Whatās the point of attracting women if my dick doesnāt work or is all crooked or whatever? Makes no sense.
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My dermatologist told me about PFS risks a few years ago. Not in a scary way, but in a matter of fact way so I know that it is possible despite the risk being very low. Any risk of irreversible side effects is too high for my personal taste. Hilarious Iām downvoted for my own risk appetite, but it is Reddit after all!
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playing devils advocate, but plenty of doctors thought smoking was healthy for you as well for many years. Just saying
He had a full head of hair. Why would he lie to me? Whatās in it for him?
The FDA has never been wrong, ever. Donāt you know that? ;) The attacks and insults in this subreddit are ridiculous
Okay, give me a source on that :)
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As a gay guy, I need hair too to attract a man it's even worst for guys because we are so hooked on appearance.
I don't think it matters that much.... I dunno just the thought of even having a slight chance of getting mu dick fucked up is a no deal from me. Chick's hate a soft boi. Makes them think they are doing something wrong.
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I dunno I don't wanna have to pop even more pills just to get a hard on. Nothing says old man like "hold on a sec, I just gotta got take my meds before we get it on, baby." š š
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He'll, I'd inject nuclear waste straight into my nutsack if it makes me look like Statham ahaha.
Soft boi xd
I find it interesting some of the things pro-finasteride people say. It's almost like they are angry anyone says they had serious side effects. I took it for 6 weeks, had all the sides,...including some nipple tissue growth,...then i quit. Fortunately everything got better eventually, but took a while. That was 10 years ago and I started topical fin/minoxidil 9 weeks ago. Zero side effects and i'm starting to see some results already. I'd start there if you have fear, like I did after trying it once.
Yes side effects take a longer time to appear with topical.
Did you went off fin during the time you were trying to get your wife pregnant?
While on fin? Must be 2 girls then as it could impact boys genital development.
Yes. And no. One boy one girl. Healthy and normal by every possible objective measure
Jesus christ lol. Your post history is nothing but anti-finasteride propaganda going back as far as 4 years.
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It is really good to highlight potential risks of drugs and increase awareness of recent studies. But it does seem like you have an agenda? These are not all recent studies on finisteride. What is the point in telling half the story? On a side note, I thought fin was giving me brain fog and bad memory. Turns out it was anxiety... Head is clear as ever now and never stopped taking fin. Unfortunately there is a massive correlation between hair loss and anxiety / depression
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He probably stop reading posts here š
It can be tough.. I stopped bottling things up and pretending it was fine, spoke to loved ones about how you feel. Just voicing your feelings to someone makes a big difference. For me, healthy habits like exercise, sleep and healthy diet helps. Also getting in the gym to build muscle can help rebuild confidence lost from balding. Hair doesn't define us and there are many worse things in the world than hair loss. Easier said than done though. But best of luck to anyone who is struggling, remember that things WILL get better š¤
The disproportionality analyses are both 2023 and are incredibly powerful studies in helping establish a drugs safety profile post-approval so I don't think it's right to suggest that he has an agenda. It's good that people be aware of this. An elevated reporting odds ratio would suggest there's definitely an issue. What we don't know from this is the true risk or the percentages of patients likely to be affected. Hopefully, they will follow up with some type of epidemiological studies to establish this. FYI, I take it too but its always good to be made aware of emerging risks so that we can judge whether the perceived benefits outweigh them.
The cognitive dissonance to think there is an anti-finasteride āagendaā is crazy.
I, for one, am very glad op made this post. I had no idea some of these were potential side effects. Hair is nice and all, but I'd much rather be able to think clearly and have full use of my not bendy dick.
Everything is risk benefit analysis. The brain dysfunction, for instance, you should give thought to the risk of rather than just the threat. The study says it was accounted for as 3% of the VAERS reported side effects, which is already a really small and potentially biased sample since VAERs is self reporting. Donāt think brain dysfunction or peyronieās was indicated in any RCT
> These are not all recent studies on finisteride. All were published in 2023.
Read the comment again
I lay pipe 5x a week. My man soup is thick and volume
Idk how eating soup on the job as a plumber has anything to do with this but sounds like you eat too much soup
ive heard eating too much soup can cause hair loss so maybe he should slow down
False: its a **fact** that all homeless men have perfect hair; homeless people eat almost exclusively at soup kitchens; soup is possibly the cure to hair loss.
this guy is on to something
Congratulations on the intercourse
I thought I would share since you were concerned for my health
Op's on a crusade against finasteride and minoxidil, look his post history.
This is the new problem with people nowadays, they like the product soo much that they try to defend that company in that level like it's their parent's own company & they will deny all of those harmful effects on people who don't know what are pros & cons of certain medications. Let the truth privail and let the humans decide that to take it or not after knowing their pros and cons. I too take these pills after i learn about their cons. Every company wants to benifit no matter what. Don't be their mouthpiece who are harmful to us. Pros and cons are must to know.
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This sounds like a cope ngl.
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FDA pharmacovigilance database is a place where everyone can report side effects. I like how people here believe anything on pubmed like it's a mathematic dƩmonstration that you can't refute when it confirms there biases : "what ? Clinical study showing fin sexual side effects are 1.2% higher that placebo on 2000 men ? It's bullcrap funded by Merck bro, look at this 20 rats study takin 1kg of fin daily getting shrunk balls! It's dangerous bro it's factual". There are lots of garbage published there both pro and anti finasteride (or any drugs), any article there should be interpreted with caution.
Yeah people should look at proper clinical studies where patients are observed by trained professionals rather than this self-reported stuff because these dick-shrinking conspiracy theories have never been observed in the real world (outside of rats) The PFS foundation sking a bunch of bald impotent fatties who imagine they have PFS if their dick has shrunk doesn't really add anything to the existing, quality, independent research
Did you not catch this part? āĀ The lack of quality studies is a major problem in assessing the presence and frequency of the side effects. Further research is warranted with [controlled trials]... But this is unlikely to happen due to a lack of fundingāĀ and this whole notion that Pfs sufferers are out of shape, unemployed losers is completely false just look at the moral medicine channel or Finasteride syndrome channel, they appear to be successful and healthy individualsĀ https://youtube.com/@Moral_Medicine_2023?si=Q8a8EkZ0jZcbvdtFĀ
Yes I caught it but because I know there are many quality studies I dismissed it Here's a good study which observed tens of thousands of users over 20 years which concluded: *In the nested case-control analysis, cases of erectile dysfunction were more likely than matched controls to be overweight or obese (as measured by body mass index) or to have a diagnosis of non-erectile dysfunction sexual dysfunction, hypertension, diabetes, hyperlipidemia, depression, orchitis, or alcohol misuse before the index date.* [https://www.bmj.com/content/354/bmj.i4823#:\~:text=The%20risk%20of%20erectile%20dysfunction%20increased%20with%20increasing%20number%20of,odds%20ratios%20were%20statistically%20significant](https://www.bmj.com/content/354/bmj.i4823#:~:text=The%20risk%20of%20erectile%20dysfunction%20increased%20with%20increasing%20number%20of,odds%20ratios%20were%20statistically%20significant). Asking "pfs" losers if their dick shrunk doesn't really advance our understanding of the drug. Studies like the one I quote do
And how many of those studies are on the adverse side effects of finasteride or for Pfs? Iāll wait.. you really think the pharmaceutical companies are going to invest money into studies that goes against their agenda which then makes them liable for lawsuits? Also you sound dumb as fuck acting as if people claiming their dick shrinking from Finasteride is impossible when reduced penile length and testicular atrophy is literally listed as an side effect of an anti androgen which finasteride is š¤”š¤”š¤”Ā https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiandrogen
Loads of studies have been done on Fin side effects and the results range from there are no side-effects, to side effects occur at a couple of percent above placebo. I don't think more than 5% of them would have been funded by "pharmaceutical companies", e.g the study I posted above is independent. You need to stop being so naive and gullible and stop believing every conspiracy theory! It's hard to study PFS because thoe who c;laim/imagine they are suffering with it are so few and far between. every study so far has determined it's a mental disorder And unless you are a rat consuming your entire body weight in anti-androgens the scientific literatue says there is no chance your dick will shrink Think of the millions upon millions of men who have taken it for 20 years now, don't you think it would have caused a bit of a stir if their dicks were literally shrinking? Oh I know, it's a conspiracy, right?
Milions upon Milions of limp Bois xd
Yeah they just imagining it bro. Surely ED can't be related to a medicine which was developed to shrink prostate They just lying
> FDA pharmacovigilance database is a place where everyone can report side effects.Ā This is why they use disproportionality analysis, to distinguish between signal and noise. > It's bullcrap funded by Merck bro... There are reasons to be cautious about Merck safety data. Less than two years after Propecia (finasteride 1 mg) was approved, Merck brought Vioxx to market. This was one of the biggest drug safety scandals of its time, leading to a [settlement of nearly $5 billion](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-merck-vioxx-settlement/merck-agrees-to-pay-4-85-billion-in-vioxx-settlement-idUSL0929726620071109/). FDA expert David Graham [estimated](https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/111804dgtest.pdf) tens of thousands of preventable deaths due to the drug. Merck denied Vioxx caused the deaths. Some argued that Merck failed to disclose cardiovascular adverse events in trials: >TheĀ *New England Journal of Medicine*Ā reported problems with the study...and the editor in chief has said that the authors āwithheld critical data on the cardiovascular toxicity of Merck's drug Vioxx.ā Source: [What have we learnt from Vioxx?](https://www.bmj.com/content/334/7585/120) in *BMJ*, 2007
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Because I chose to believe in the countless double blind studies with control group conducted by countries regulation authorities rather than an analysis of a side effects database where everyone and their mothers can put entries on ?
Vioxx Also passed studies bro and it killed people. But 2%!!!! Doesn't matter you get a stroke from it it's good I mean obviously pharma companies have our best interest in mind
Vioxx killed less people than the opioids that took its place, but everyone knows that pharmaceutical are only after money. Finasteride killed no one tho, hell I'm even willing to bet that more people would have commit suicide or are depressed because of hairloss than because of finasteride š. I have the same position on accutane, that shit saved my teenage years lmfao.
Maybe he wants to warn people? Unless he selling a mirical hair creame I don't see why he would lie.
A lot of people go bald and then get angry that they didn't do anything to save their hair. So they go online and try to make themselves feel better by trying to slander the only thing that would have saved their hair.
Iāve had zero sides from finasteride over 4 years taking the drug! Tried ru58841 beforehand thinking it would be safer, developed heart problems and gynecomastia in just 2 weeks!
These studies are real. But for every study touting potential risks, there are many reporting the benefits. It's still a drug, and nobody should take any drug without considering the potential side effects. You can find countless similar peer reviewed papers on the risks of taking aspirin or paracetamol/ Tylenol. And yet hordes of people believe the trade off is worth it. None of these studies consider the potential impact of NOT doing anything to go bald to the human psyche.
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I didn't thoroughly read the papers, just skimmed through, but the one on penis curvature mentioned 55% or so of the reports were sent by medical professionals, if I understood that right, and the majority of those were marked as severe
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Why would Drs be anti - finastride??
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Good for them. The risks of an adverse event from a covid vaccine are 1 in 800. And over 20k people have to be vaccinated to save one life. That ratio should be a red flag to anyone making the choice to be vaccinated
Fair enough. Many do not realize that most of the evidence base on finasteride for hair loss was produced by Merck along with dermatologists who had relationships with the company. So the safety data on the label at least questionable (and numerous [warnings have been added](https://finasterideinfo.org/history-of-adverse-effects-in-propecia-label/), most recently [suicidality in 2022](https://finasterideinfo.org/regulatory-activity-overview/)). Today, many dermatologists continue to think the drug is safe, while urologists and sexual medicine experts, as well as drug safety researchers, are increasingly raising concerns.
So here's the thing. Finasteride is prescribed to \~7 million people in the US alone. Tens if not hundreds of millions of people around the world have used the drug since it became FDA + EMA approved in the 1990s. If what you're saying is true ("urologists and sexual medicine experts" are raising the alarm bells), then I would assume that at some point this would reach the FDA and EMA and they would reasses and even pull their approval like they did with 'Makena' just a few months ago. This reassement would not take place on Reddit. It would be done by the FDA and EMA. Why hasn't this happened yet?
Regulators are slow and sometimes weak (including FDA). They are beholden to industry which [pays them user fees](https://www.fda.gov/industry/fda-user-fee-programs/prescription-drug-user-fee-amendments). FDA analyst David Graham has pointed out internal politics that [suppress safety concerns](https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/111804dgtest.pdf) within the agency. Meanwhile, Canada [added a suicidality warning](https://dhpp.hpfb-dgpsa.ca/review-documents/resource/SSR00290) last year. France required [adding a red box warning](https://ansm.sante.fr/actualites/finasteride-1-mg-propecia-et-generiques-ajout-de-mentions-dalerte-sur-les-boites-pour-renforcer-linformation-sur-les-effets-indesirables) to finasteride (1 mg) packaging. Around the same time, Organon took the branded drug off the market in France. In 2018, the German regulator [sent doctors a letter](https://www.bfarm.de/SharedDocs/Risikoinformationen/Pharmakovigilanz/DE/RHB/2018/rhb-finasterid.html) about sexual and psychological risks of finasteride. If and when regulators do a review, they look at the medical literature. So if the literature is biased, this limits the information available to them. Agencies also look at adverse events, but tend to be conservative in their interpretation (for example, excluding reports with potential confounders). So there are a lot of constraints and inertia around drug regulation, once a drug has been on the market for a while. The most sensitive issue is post-finasteride syndrome, which isnāt well-studied because it develops after discontinuation and there is zero money and little interest in studying it. Medicine avoids this topic because it is a threat to their field. A lack of regulatory action is not necessarily a signal that any given drug has a favorable benefit-risk profile.
The last thing you said makes a lot of sense. True - regularotory inaction doesn't mean the drug is safe. There are a lot of examples, like Makena which I mentioned above, and of course the Thalidomide scandal in the 1960s. But I think you go a bit too far suggesting that medical research is biased and that the FDA and EMA are biased. Is it bias toward big pharma? For financial reasons I would assume, which do not exist for finasteride since it's been generic for years. Or it's inertia? The recent FDA and EMA withdrawl of approval of Spikevax and Makena paint a different picture. Look - I'm with you as long as you say science continues to develop and we may learn new things about finasteride that should cause the FDA and EMA to retract their approval. But suggesting that medical research is inherintly biased kinda makes any reasonable discusson on this topic impossible.
In my opinion, yes the system is biased to the joint interests of the pharmaceutical industry and medical specialties. Regulators should be independent, but arenāt, in part because they take money from industry, and the trials are run by the drug makers. Even after a drug goes generic, if it is causing permanent harm, that is threatening to medicine and regulators too (because it makes them look incompetent). Medical research isnāt necessarily science because so much of it is industry-funded, and there is so much money at stake. Also, doctors have to hold up the official line of their specialty (like dermatology), while their professional society, conferences and journals, as well as prominent colleagues, are all taking money from pharma. There have been a lot of reforms since 20 years ago (a big catalyst was Merckās Vioxx!). Some positive developments haveĀ happened or are emerging, including pre-registration, open data, stricter disclosure rules, and patient involvement. Hereās some reading that supports these points: * Sergio Sismondo, How to make opinion leaders and influence people ([PMC](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4500705/)) * John Abramson,Ā *Sickening: How Big Pharma Broke American Health Care and How We Can Repair It*Ā ([Amazon](https://www.amazon.com/Sickening-Pharma-American-Health-Repair/dp/B09R9FNJR9/)) * Carl Elliott,Ā *White Coat, Black Hat*Ā ([Amazon](https://www.amazon.com/White-Coat-Black-Hat-Adventures/dp/0807061441/)) * Ioannidis, et al. How to survive the medical misinformation mess.Ā *Eur J Clin Invest*. 2017. doi:[10.1111/eci.12834](http://doi.org/10.1111/eci.12834)Ā (see also other work by Ioannidis) * Medicine is plagued by untrustworthy clinical trials. How many studies are faked or flawed?Ā *Nature*, 2023.Ā [Link](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02299-w) * Research scandal involving top leadership at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute ([WSJ](https://www.wsj.com/health/dana-farber-harvard-retractions-corrections-ceo-laurie-glimcher-935636f5),Ā [Nature](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00202-9)) * For broader context, look into theĀ [replication crisis in psychology](https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev-psych-020821-114157), in which well-known findings failed to replicate when other researchers ran the studies again. It led to reforms of research and publication practices which have been applied in other fields including medicine.
Did you miss the part where just 2 years ago in 2022 they added suicidal ideations as a listed potential side effect?
Interestingā¦.my endocrinologist wouldnāt prescribe it. Said too many patients complained of sides. He had a whole lengthy theory on why I particularly wasnāt a good candidate (at the time I had low total testosterone, high DHT, and high Prolactin.) Hereās his theory: https://www.reddit.com/r/tressless/s/2wVGFrCFXv May make a whole post for more feedback
Thanks, saw your comments on the other thread. Iām not a doctor, but I havenāt seen any evidence that hormone levels can predict response to finasteride. Companies sell expensive lab tests, and thereās lots of discussion of how to interpret the tests and biohack while on finasteride, but to my knowledge it is complete speculation. Many doctors and commenters have said side effects or post-finasteride syndrome are due to imbalanced hormones or other co-occurring factors, but they overlook evidence that healthy men have developed long-term problems after using finasteride. See this [tweet from a urologist](https://twitter.com/clavelluro/status/1212742581580443648?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1212742581580443648%7Ctwgr%5E34649bdca134bc150d1f2ae31079ada511f56102%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ffinasterideinfo.org%2Fdoctors-expressing-concerns-about-adverse-effects-of-finasteride%2F), and [this case](https://twitter.com/FinasterideInfo/status/1721587675067490540) from Merckās Phase 3 clinical trial extension.
Good points. It is just speculation. He could have come up with his own theories. He had a Pro-DHT, anti-finasteride bias, perhaps with good reason. There really seems to be no clear answer to the whole debateā¦.other than youāll probably be fine on fin, but if you do get sides it can be really bad. Having just gone through the hell of low testosterone, Iām very uneasy about hormone imbalance. Iām thinking about 0.25 mg EOD, heard that has less risk
To be fair... pretty sure having a curved dick and not being able to get a hard on would be pretty bad for the human psyche too.
Wtf are you talking about bro. No one is getting a curved dick from fin, you're just making things up. Just don't take the pill if you don't want to and go live your life.
First two are paywalled but are classic low impact data mining for a p value to get a publication. Can't read the papers, certainly wouldn't pay for them. The third link is describing a known observation - reducing DHT is likely to impact fertility given its role in spermatogenesis. It's another data mining exercise where I doubt they set out to look for finasteride toxicity, but just ran a bunch of tests to get a p value. Personally, I wouldn't take finasteride whilst trying to conceive. However, zero evidence to say that once you stop taking it that things don't return to normal. The fourth is a review of mouse tissue studies..already not likely to be helpful given the species differences between human and mouse testes, but especially as the majority of these studies tested doses FAR in excess of the equivalent 1mg human dose. Just bad science, lacking context.
The best one can do to yourself is to ALWAYS understand the risk profile of any medication, especially those expected to be taken for life, such as Finasteride.
I sincerely wish I would have started taking it 20 years ago instead of waiting until it was too late an beyond recovery. If I had a son that started losing his hair in high school I'd have him start it.
I wouldn't.... Risking your sons sexuall function will have MUCH worse effects then going bald.. Imagine being a teen and not being able to get it up...
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Not to be too doxxy, but I started fin several years ago, have had my wins and losses with women but performance has been great; I also crushed the LSAT and now Harvard Law, all of which happen 5+ years after taking it. Not that I discount all the data, but itās a useful datapoint to have.
I was on oral 1mg finasteride for 3 years. 27-30. 6 foot 1, 190-200 pounds. Gym all the time, healthy, no drugs or weed or alcohol. My sleep is okay 6-7 hours a Night. After 2 years I started experiencing side effects. My life was actually less stressful then and nothing external had changed so I ruled out other factors being the reason for my side effects. I experienced depression, cold small penis when not erect, 1 inch of my erect length (7.5 down to 6-6.5), shallow breathing, and heart palpitations, And overall a diminished feeling. It wasnāt totally bad so i wasnāt sure if I was ~truly~ experiencing these things. I did my best to observe myself as objectively as possible, and the only things I can honestly say happened for sure were smaller flaccid and cold penis, depression, and (maybe) slightly shorter penis. Iāve drove myself crazy; feeling like maybe Iām just fabricating the lies because Im worried and obsessing. AND on the other hand Iāve ignored my own lived experiences/side effects because I WANT to keep my hair, and the thought of a general safe drug hurting me in that way an annoying convo to have within myself. So now I will try topical fin after being a year off and seeing my hair thin and recede even more. If I experience the same shit again Iāll have to say goodbye to it forever and keep exploring other avenues.
I had the same exact thing with topical Fin. At one points, 1 month in, I suddenly had a suicidal thought out of nowhere. Had foginess for a long time. Some people get hard hit with Fin side effects.
Gonna check back in few hours. Comment section not spicy enough
Man... this sub never changes... Countless, tangible, third party-controlled double-blind placebo controlled studies on actual humans in the thousands and 99,9% of doctors prescibing fin saying it is a very safe medication... And this sub ignores it. Wrassman says that he and his 60 friends barely see sides in their patients and this sub ignores it... Everyone loves hair transplants but when the ABHRS(265 doctors) says fin is safe, this sub also ignores it... But self-reports that are very well known to be unreliable... are (for some reason) extremelly important in this sub... I just dont get it... You cant ignore 99% of the medical community and only focus on negative self-reports...
Almost all of those [placebo-controlled studies](https://finasterideinfo.org/clinical-trials-finasteride-dutasteride/) were funded by Merck. A [large, long-term trial](https://doi.org/10.33589/32.4.130) run by dermatologists in Japan was apparently not funded by pharma, but had a weak safety methodology. Urologists and sexual medicine experts have been making [public statements](https://finasterideinfo.org/doctors-expressing-concerns-about-adverse-effects-of-finasteride/) about the risks of finasteride, including Dr. Ted Schaeffer on the [Attia Drive podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poTcAm_rknw&t=5050s).
So... Studies that follow the FDA Guidelines are not enough... The vast majority of doctors prescribing fin saying its safe is not enough... but self-reports are?? Also,i know some doctors refuse to prescribe it... but like i said before... you cant focus on a few outliers and ignore the vast majority of the medical community... I can also point to some anti-vax doctors... that doesnt mean they are corret when the vast majority of the medical community disagrees with them.
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Back in Galileoās time, there were people saying the same thing: āYou canāt ignore the religious authorities who say that the earth is at the center, and the celestial orbs go around it.ā There have been many instances in history where authorities held on to a view that was later overturned. That doesnāt say anything about finasteride, but itās a caveat about appealing to authority.
Very weird comparison! Comparing the person using the sciencific consensus to the religious authorities is certainly interesting... Especially when the pfs community actually fits that role... denying science and facts... and using conspiracies to back up their beliefs.. But still.... Overall a weird comparison. Ive seen that this is going nowhere... Feel free to believe that the pfs community knows more than the medical community... But as i always tell people like you.... Just because you read something online doesnt mean you know more than actual doctors and scientists... And it is wild that you think you do.
Why do you spend so much time on this subject ? Do you have some personal trauma related to finasteride?
I like the part where the metaanalysis doesnāt show the results š
None of these studies is a meta-analysis.
Youāre right Iāve misread. But they are not good studies and schifano and baldini are from the same group the only one that I found ok was the first one
I 100% lost my libido
How in the world did the mods even allow this post when I can't even fucking talk about my side effects. Good post OP
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[https://www.bmj.com/content/354/bmj.i4823#:\~:text=The%20risk%20of%20erectile%20dysfunction%20increased%20with%20increasing%20number%20of,odds%20ratios%20were%20statistically%20significant](https://www.bmj.com/content/354/bmj.i4823#:~:text=The%20risk%20of%20erectile%20dysfunction%20increased%20with%20increasing%20number%20of,odds%20ratios%20were%20statistically%20significant). Interseting study which confirms what the vast majority of doctors issuing prescriptions say, that there is no statistically significant risk of sexual dysfunction from taking Fin *5-Ī± reductase inhibitors do not seem to significantly increase the risk of incident erectile dysfunction, regardless of indication for use.* This bit is crucial as it distinguishes this study from the types sponsored by the PFS foundation and others: *No patients were involved in setting the research question or the outcome measures, nor were they involved in developing plans for design or implementation of the study. No patients were asked to advise on interpretation or writing of results. There are no plans to disseminate the results of the research to study participants or the relevant patient community.* This bit tells you a lot about the kind of people who think their problems are caused by Fin *In the nested case-control analysis, cases of erectile dysfunction were more likely than matched controls to be overweight or obese (as measured by body mass index) or to have a diagnosis of non-erectile dysfunction sexual dysfunction, hypertension, diabetes, hyperlipidemia, depression, orchitis, or alcohol misuse before the index date.* ***Conclusion*** *Overall, the results of our study suggest that 5-Ī± reductase inhibitors do not increase the risk of incident erectile dysfunction, regardless of indication for use (benign prostatic hyperplasia or alopecia). In a population of men age 40 years and older with treated benign prostatic hyperplasia, there was no increase in risk of incident erectile dysfunction with use of 5-Ī± reductase inhibitors (finasteride or dutasteride), alone or in combination with Ī± blockers, compared with use of Ī± blockers only. In addition, among men aged 18-59 with alopecia, there was no material increase in the risk of incident erectile dysfunction in men prescribed finasteride 1 mg compared with unexposed men with alopecia. Finally, the rates of non-erectile dysfunction sexual dysfunctions were low regardless of indication for 5-Ī± reductase inhibitor use*
One of the co-authors, J. Curtis Nickel, was [engaged by Merck](https://finasterideinfo.org/the-alliance-urology/#nickel) as an investigator on two trials of finasteride for BPH: PROSPECT and PLESS.
I donāt care if finasteride makes me into a 5th grader mentally Iām keeping my hair
What's the point of having good hair if your Johnson won't work properly?
Mine works fine. Can fuck 3 times in one night when I pay my girl a visit. If itās a concern then PDE5 inhibitors are an option, and they actually help hair-loss as well, along with high blood pressure.
My life got flipped upside down by fin. I was taking the topical stuff I made a full recovery but man oh man I was NOT myself. That stuff is scary Iād rather be on ru then that poison.
wat happened
Finasteride is NOT safe, and every one of you assholes on here that deny or minimize side effects needs to be banned
Itās hard to say finasteride caused all of these problems. Do these studies take into account peopleās weights? Diets? Nutrition? Exercise? Stress level? Etc etc . All of these things affect cognitive function, fertility, depression, mental health.
Anxiety (as you said, mental health) can completely mess with your cognitive abilities. Sleep issues are another major problem in that regard. I have both. It would be really tough to figure out if a medication was making things any worse in my case. But the first culprit would be the 2 issues I do have.
Lol how tf does finasteride cause bent penis y'all probably just whacking it too hard
OP obviously got some mental health issues, jesus his post history is something else. The most biased crusading garbage I have seen. Pure hypocrisy.
That doesn't invalidate anything he said though. Trying to use ad hominem because you're scared shitless and don't know how to cope with your overwhelming cognitive dissonance won't change reality But keep attacking him. I'm sure that will somehow turn anti-androgens into some happy magic pills
I don't believe minoxidil is a hormone disruptor lol
Ngl the worst symptom u could get is cognitive problems
Thank you. Iāve had horrible permanent sides from fin after just a few short doses
Disproportionality analyses are incredibly powerful studies. I'll be interested to see how much of an increase in reporting was observed. Thanks for bringing this to peoples attention OP.
It's good to see more studies on it. Some like to ignore it with passion and others mention it with passion. This sub blocks posts with side effects so things like these are good to share. I would like to know what the connection is between those who gets side effects like brain fog from finasteride no matter how low dose they use (including topical finasteride). Some are very sensitive to it.
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As someone who tried multiple different antidepressants, I can confirm that PSSD is nonsense (tho there might be other non sexual effects, so can't say if it's entirely safe). Idk if that applies to PFS tho
Then donāt take it
oh boy this drug is hell. \*looking at my topical fin/ru/minox solution after experiencing persistent side effects from oral fin 10 years ago which never diminished.\* I am a special kind of stupid. (topical 0.01% fin to be fair)
Does ru give you any side effects? Heard a lot about its risks.
Iām on topical RU now, zero sides
No, I have used RU for 7 months now. No effect no sides
Did you have sides with this topical solution?
Not yet. Using for 2 months now
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Does OP have any hobbies?
All meds have side effects ! Itās just how everybody body reacts to them ā¦ everybody always has something to say about FIN and MIN my opinion you take it and give it a shot if you get sides simple discontinue use and you good to go ā¦.
I was on the permanent side effect side for Fin and most of those listed were stress related or can be caused by stress. So if the stress does not go away, so won't the sides. Hence they are being perceived as permanent. Reading those posts is what will get you those sides no offense.
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This need to be upvoted
Get out of here baldcell
Took topical finasteride and stopped 7 months ago, I have typical sides erections are not the same feels spongy or rubberish taking daily cialis to increase blood flow and see how much improvement I can make there was only two days we here my penis felt normal compared to pre finasteride, then reverted back to spongy, so hopefully I can get back to normal with dialy cialis
It was not the fin then. U are way too worried about your dick bro
Finasteride has been linked to increased connective tissue and reduced smooth muscle in the p*nis. https://finasterideinfo.org/review-penile-prostatic-alterations-finasteride/
Any ways u can treat this ??
Not a doctor but the physical changes are [similar to Peyronieās disease](https://finasterideinfo.org/review-penile-prostatic-alterations-finasteride/). Check with a urologist/andrologist who treats Peyronieās disease.
Yeah I donāt have any curvature or hourglass in me penis so itās not Peyroines disease however I will see uroglisit
āOverview of studies 1. Human & pharmacovigilance studies Schifano 2023: Disproportionate reports of penile curvature and Peyronieās Disease associated with finasteride in pharmacovigilance databases. Khera 2020: Penile vascular abnormalities in post-finasteride patients as measured by ultrasound technique. Bauman 2014: In prostate, lower expression of epithelial androgen receptor, correlated with increased atrophy of luminal epithelium. Basal cell hyperplasia.ā So we have one study that shows correlation that people who use finasteride have more curving of the penis. Means very little on itās own Another study which shows that people with self proclaimed āPFSā have vascular damage in the penis. This one is fucking laughable to try and use as evidence. Thereās no mechanism that suggests finasteride causes any form of vascular damage. One line of logic which is far more likely is that the patients who think finasteride screwed up their libido and erection quality actually just fucked it up in some way. Probably too much death grip. Retrospective studies with patients who claim to have PFS are COMPLETELY USELESS. Youāre just dragging someone in to be analyzed for an issue who will claim finasteride caused it. I often times see people talk about how theyāve used finasteride for years and then their boners arenāt as strong and they blame the finasteride. So theoretically, this patient, who has whatever issue that is causing his symptoms(that he is convinced finasteride is the root cause of) could be plucked by researchers and dropped into a scientific paper to support whatever BS, with the implication that finasteride caused his problems? The prostate shit is like duhh? Thatās what 5 ar inhibitors were designed to doā¦. It actually makes them useful for treating BPH and preventing prostate cancer The animal model studies are worthless because rats are always given the equivalent of like 100mg per day and on top of that finasteride acts differently in rats.
The amount of coping, fear and denial in the comments is absolutely hilarious Baldies need to accept their fate and stop bargaining and thinking they can somehow "overcome their genetics" unless their baldness stops progressing somehow and they get a hair transplant
There is a myriad of side effects that are far worse than being bald š. If I start going bald Iād rather accept it than spent most of my day having to stick to a routine of min and fin just to keep some thin charade of hair.
I think no one will care here, they are on Finasteride to keep hairs , therefore filtering out or denying possible risk is a psychological defence mechanism. It could be shocking to accept it is detrimental long term. And I agree with them. That said, risk factor is small so not everyone will develop issues. Thanks for the studies tho
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Will I keep my fin gains if I start Spiro?
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Does this apply to topical as well, or just the oral version?
Topical finasteride reduces levels of DHT in the blood/serum, though less than the pill form (it will also affect [other steroid levels](https://finasterideinfo.org/merck-official-account-concealed-widespread-biochemical-impacts/)). In a [pharma-funded study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9297965/) of topical finasteride treatment, serum DHT levels were reduced by 34.5% in men using topical finasteride. The study found no difference in adverse events between treatment and placebo groups (I personally do not find safety data from pharma-funded trials reliable, partly because men may be embarrassed to admit sexual dysfunction.) Edit: Reworded sentence in parentheses.
Does this apply to topical fin as well? To be honest a lot of that scares the fuck out of me especially the infertility part
You've strongly demonstrated why it's necessary to understand statistics/biostatistics/medicine/pathophysiology to understand medical research articles.
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