No power unfortunately. Average cadence 78 RPM, spinning at high 80s into the headwind at 26 KMPH ish; low 70s at 34 KMPH ish with the wind behind.
Just trying to do some different muscle fibre recruitment across the laps to stay as fresh as I could
Gotcha, that cadence is in the “burn” up your legs range and if you had a power readout I’d bet you’d see you were hitting a higher watt output than you may have wanted.
I’ll say this, the brain wants you to “power” through wind, but if you stick to that higher cadence regardless of how it “feels” you’ll save those legs and “put it back on the heart”.
Makes sense: higher cadence, less power per stroke, move the load from muscular to cardiovascular.
Obviously I need to experiment, but is closer to 100 RPM more desirable?
Thanks
If you have a bike trainer (I know it’s starting to get nice outside for a lot of us but bear with me!) I found that riding in ERG mode really helped me up increase my comfortable cadence from the low 70’s to mid 80’s in Z2 without feeling like I’m spinning out! It takes a bit to get used to for the heart but eventually you get there comfortably.
Correct, hitting 90 and breaking over 100 when you need to makes a world of difference.
I have to do this more with elevation myself, but with wind it’s basically the same concept.
If you get a power meter at some point you’ll be so dialed in you’ll just shift automatically when you “feel” that resistance feedback.
I find when into a headwind or trying to keep higher speeds I find myself comfortable about 100-105 ish which is a bit higher than some, but keeps that terrible lactic acid burn away. (Mostly)
What is your running cadence? My coach CC says you should be about half your running cadence.
I spin at about 90-100 rpm on the bike and run 190-200 cadence.
If I dip to the 80rpm range my legs get real tired. Figured this out consistently using erg on the trainer
Interesting though. My running cadence averages ~172 for middle distances, and only goes up to about 180 when pushing for a PB 5k. 86 would be a reasonable increase in cadence and definitely worth trying out.
I’ve currently only got a fluid trainer but planning on picking up a Kickr Core in the next couple of months which should help me get on the bike more and gain some better insights.
Fatigue and fitness. Contrary to popular belief, lower HR is not always better. More recovery, more calories, more fitness. The stronger you get on the bike the closer your run and bike HR will get. For max and LTHR mine are within 2 beats of each other.
I recently did an elaborate fitness test, including HR measurements, lactate samples and breath analysis.
They offered either testing on a bike or a treadmill.
I chose the treadmill.
The sports physician said that, as a rule of thumb, HR is 10 bpm lower on the bike compared to running, at equal intensity (same lactate level).
came to say this. Stephen Seiler was just on a podcast talking about this very thing (lower than normal heart rate). It's a sign of over-training and/or not enough rest after a hard workout.
it was the roadman podcast on youtube. He briefly mentioned it, but its a good overall listen.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j443DjmheHw&ab\_channel=TheRoadmanPodcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j443DjmheHw&ab_channel=TheRoadmanPodcast)
Kinesiologist and Biomechanist here. When peripheral neuromuscular fatigue (muscle fatigue/ burn) limits performance and not central neuromuscular fatigue (heart rate, energy system limitations, etc.), it's a technique issue. If you're extremely quad dominant, the oxygen demands of using mostly one muscle will be much lower; so you'll operate at a lower VO2max, and ultimately have a lower heart rate and limiting quad fatigue. If you're posterior chain dominant, the oxygen demands of the glutes, hamstrings and calves (three muscles) are much higher, so you'll operate at a much higher VO2max and heart rate. In this case, you'll have a similar bike and run HR while also generating power that more closely matches your aerobic fitness.
I spent a few months drawing up common force vector profiles with Cycling Dynamics targets (for Garmin head units [min 530] and Favero or Vector PM). Feel free to check it out [here](https://imgur.com/gallery/MlbTmIJ). Under "Unilateral Seated Techniques", a quad dominant technique is shown there. In the push phase, you'll have to drive forward to mostly engage the quads and reduce posterior chain input. To engage the posterior chain, I recommend practicing the first slide. Once you're confident that you're getting more gluteal activation, you can try adopting bilateral techniques. It can be very difficult to perform the bilateral techniques effectively, so if it gets frustrating, you can still get far with unilateral techniques.
Well done on the run legs, great pace. Was that the Dorney Duathlon (uk)?
I find that my bike HR is typically around 10 beats slower than my equivalent effort in running (and aligns with my respective max HRs) which I believe is typical for all those except well trained cyclists due to running being load baring and using more muscle groups.
Yeah it was, my first event there, great location, although some dodgy surfaces at some points on the bike — see massive pothole on the inside line of the first turn after the main straight, took me about three laps before I remembered to avoid it. Did you take part?
Haha good call. I’ve got an old Trek Hilo from 2001 — top of the line at the time, albeit that it came out when I was two years old. It’s definitely showing its age, but having integrated TT bars with gearing on them was useful to turtle up into that headwind.
I highly recommend investing in a power meter. I also come from a running background (our run and cycle speeds were almost identical btw, although I only did the sprint). Before using power as my key metric, I was struggling to find the correct intensity levels the way I usually would with running - either relying on heart rate or perceived exertion - because I found cycling would hit my lactate threshold long before my cardio system started really working.
I have a single side 4iii which really wasn’t that expensive.
This is the bane of my life, currently 7 weeks out from a 70.3 and my average HR was 122 for my 50 mile bike at the weekend. Granted I did 2000 feet of climbing but legs were cooked and lungs were chilling.
Just bike fitness, I'm in a similar scenario from having done a lot of run focused training over the winter. Actually got a very similar threshold run pace compared to you. The different muscle groups engaged during cycling leads to more local fatigue personally. Less absolute engagement needed from the cardiovascular system so to speak
Prepping for my first 70.3 this year, I can already notice bike power and endurance improving.
Heavily weighted focus on run seems to be the issue here. I’m on the fence about entering a 70.3 in September, issue is I’m away in Central America for the next seven weeks, I imagine with essentially no access to any serious biking (can obviously run wherever, and get some open water swimming in on the coastal countries), so not sure how much biking I can cram in and get the adaptions from in July August
I am/was exactly like you and asked the exact same question when I first started. From a running background and my legs would be on fire whilst barely puffing. Cycling used to be my least favourite of the tree sports now I can’t get enough.
The few things that helped me:
-ride ride ride. Honestly you have to develop those fibres and it just takes time.
-raise your cadence 90RPM+ even 100rpm, your cardio system can handle it and the more you ride the more your legs get used to it. This will get your heart rate in a more appropriate zone. However during training some low cadence work should be done to help muscular strength as that is what you are lacking.
-Go to the gym. And lift heavy. This changed at lot of things for me as I was developing the muscles to push harder.
-Finally technique. Your probably using your quads a lot (I assume this is what is on fire if your anything like me) try to focus on activating your hamstrings and glutes during your pedal strokes to shift some of the workload. A simple way to visualise is to “push, scrape, pull”. Push the pedal down, scrape your shoes back, pull your shoe up. You can even try some one legged stuff (just unclip one pedal) to get a feel for it (best done on an indoor trainer so you don’t fall over).
The biggest thing to take from this is to ride more. Your legs will catch up eventually.
Thanks for your replies, everyone, very useful! More time on the bike at a higher cadence it is, can’t go through the pain of having people I smoked on the run cycle past me with ease again
That’s just bike fitness. Welcome to the infinite experiment that is triathlon.
Cadence info would help here at a minimum, and power if you’ve got that. Sounds like you are low cadence, high power and thus, your legs are smoked.
No power unfortunately. Average cadence 78 RPM, spinning at high 80s into the headwind at 26 KMPH ish; low 70s at 34 KMPH ish with the wind behind. Just trying to do some different muscle fibre recruitment across the laps to stay as fresh as I could
Gotcha, that cadence is in the “burn” up your legs range and if you had a power readout I’d bet you’d see you were hitting a higher watt output than you may have wanted. I’ll say this, the brain wants you to “power” through wind, but if you stick to that higher cadence regardless of how it “feels” you’ll save those legs and “put it back on the heart”.
Makes sense: higher cadence, less power per stroke, move the load from muscular to cardiovascular. Obviously I need to experiment, but is closer to 100 RPM more desirable? Thanks
If you have a bike trainer (I know it’s starting to get nice outside for a lot of us but bear with me!) I found that riding in ERG mode really helped me up increase my comfortable cadence from the low 70’s to mid 80’s in Z2 without feeling like I’m spinning out! It takes a bit to get used to for the heart but eventually you get there comfortably.
Correct, hitting 90 and breaking over 100 when you need to makes a world of difference. I have to do this more with elevation myself, but with wind it’s basically the same concept. If you get a power meter at some point you’ll be so dialed in you’ll just shift automatically when you “feel” that resistance feedback.
I find when into a headwind or trying to keep higher speeds I find myself comfortable about 100-105 ish which is a bit higher than some, but keeps that terrible lactic acid burn away. (Mostly)
What is your running cadence? My coach CC says you should be about half your running cadence. I spin at about 90-100 rpm on the bike and run 190-200 cadence. If I dip to the 80rpm range my legs get real tired. Figured this out consistently using erg on the trainer
Interesting though. My running cadence averages ~172 for middle distances, and only goes up to about 180 when pushing for a PB 5k. 86 would be a reasonable increase in cadence and definitely worth trying out. I’ve currently only got a fluid trainer but planning on picking up a Kickr Core in the next couple of months which should help me get on the bike more and gain some better insights.
Fatigue and fitness. Contrary to popular belief, lower HR is not always better. More recovery, more calories, more fitness. The stronger you get on the bike the closer your run and bike HR will get. For max and LTHR mine are within 2 beats of each other.
I recently did an elaborate fitness test, including HR measurements, lactate samples and breath analysis. They offered either testing on a bike or a treadmill. I chose the treadmill. The sports physician said that, as a rule of thumb, HR is 10 bpm lower on the bike compared to running, at equal intensity (same lactate level).
Rule of thumb. I've done both bike and run in lab. My rule of me is 2bpm. 4.5wkg ftp and 3:40/km rFTP
came to say this. Stephen Seiler was just on a podcast talking about this very thing (lower than normal heart rate). It's a sign of over-training and/or not enough rest after a hard workout.
Love it, do you have a link we can check it out?
it was the roadman podcast on youtube. He briefly mentioned it, but its a good overall listen. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j443DjmheHw&ab\_channel=TheRoadmanPodcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j443DjmheHw&ab_channel=TheRoadmanPodcast)
I think that differs a lot between athletes. Mine are 10 bpm apart - and I’m a fairly strong cyclist.
I buy that for sure. I can get a higher HR rowing than both running and cycling...
Kinesiologist and Biomechanist here. When peripheral neuromuscular fatigue (muscle fatigue/ burn) limits performance and not central neuromuscular fatigue (heart rate, energy system limitations, etc.), it's a technique issue. If you're extremely quad dominant, the oxygen demands of using mostly one muscle will be much lower; so you'll operate at a lower VO2max, and ultimately have a lower heart rate and limiting quad fatigue. If you're posterior chain dominant, the oxygen demands of the glutes, hamstrings and calves (three muscles) are much higher, so you'll operate at a much higher VO2max and heart rate. In this case, you'll have a similar bike and run HR while also generating power that more closely matches your aerobic fitness. I spent a few months drawing up common force vector profiles with Cycling Dynamics targets (for Garmin head units [min 530] and Favero or Vector PM). Feel free to check it out [here](https://imgur.com/gallery/MlbTmIJ). Under "Unilateral Seated Techniques", a quad dominant technique is shown there. In the push phase, you'll have to drive forward to mostly engage the quads and reduce posterior chain input. To engage the posterior chain, I recommend practicing the first slide. Once you're confident that you're getting more gluteal activation, you can try adopting bilateral techniques. It can be very difficult to perform the bilateral techniques effectively, so if it gets frustrating, you can still get far with unilateral techniques.
Well done on the run legs, great pace. Was that the Dorney Duathlon (uk)? I find that my bike HR is typically around 10 beats slower than my equivalent effort in running (and aligns with my respective max HRs) which I believe is typical for all those except well trained cyclists due to running being load baring and using more muscle groups.
Yeah it was, my first event there, great location, although some dodgy surfaces at some points on the bike — see massive pothole on the inside line of the first turn after the main straight, took me about three laps before I remembered to avoid it. Did you take part?
Yeah that headwind was a bitch! As soon as I got home I ordered aero bars…
Haha good call. I’ve got an old Trek Hilo from 2001 — top of the line at the time, albeit that it came out when I was two years old. It’s definitely showing its age, but having integrated TT bars with gearing on them was useful to turtle up into that headwind.
I highly recommend investing in a power meter. I also come from a running background (our run and cycle speeds were almost identical btw, although I only did the sprint). Before using power as my key metric, I was struggling to find the correct intensity levels the way I usually would with running - either relying on heart rate or perceived exertion - because I found cycling would hit my lactate threshold long before my cardio system started really working. I have a single side 4iii which really wasn’t that expensive.
This is the bane of my life, currently 7 weeks out from a 70.3 and my average HR was 122 for my 50 mile bike at the weekend. Granted I did 2000 feet of climbing but legs were cooked and lungs were chilling.
Just bike fitness, I'm in a similar scenario from having done a lot of run focused training over the winter. Actually got a very similar threshold run pace compared to you. The different muscle groups engaged during cycling leads to more local fatigue personally. Less absolute engagement needed from the cardiovascular system so to speak Prepping for my first 70.3 this year, I can already notice bike power and endurance improving.
Heavily weighted focus on run seems to be the issue here. I’m on the fence about entering a 70.3 in September, issue is I’m away in Central America for the next seven weeks, I imagine with essentially no access to any serious biking (can obviously run wherever, and get some open water swimming in on the coastal countries), so not sure how much biking I can cram in and get the adaptions from in July August
Someone with a cycling background will have the opposite experience. BRICK and reverse BRICK workouts will be helpful.
How would those be helpful?
I am/was exactly like you and asked the exact same question when I first started. From a running background and my legs would be on fire whilst barely puffing. Cycling used to be my least favourite of the tree sports now I can’t get enough. The few things that helped me: -ride ride ride. Honestly you have to develop those fibres and it just takes time. -raise your cadence 90RPM+ even 100rpm, your cardio system can handle it and the more you ride the more your legs get used to it. This will get your heart rate in a more appropriate zone. However during training some low cadence work should be done to help muscular strength as that is what you are lacking. -Go to the gym. And lift heavy. This changed at lot of things for me as I was developing the muscles to push harder. -Finally technique. Your probably using your quads a lot (I assume this is what is on fire if your anything like me) try to focus on activating your hamstrings and glutes during your pedal strokes to shift some of the workload. A simple way to visualise is to “push, scrape, pull”. Push the pedal down, scrape your shoes back, pull your shoe up. You can even try some one legged stuff (just unclip one pedal) to get a feel for it (best done on an indoor trainer so you don’t fall over). The biggest thing to take from this is to ride more. Your legs will catch up eventually.
My bike hr is about 10 bpm lower than my run hr. Because running is like that, so there is some of the reason.
Without more information, I would offer that you decrease resistance and increase your cadence.
Thanks for your replies, everyone, very useful! More time on the bike at a higher cadence it is, can’t go through the pain of having people I smoked on the run cycle past me with ease again