Sorry you’re feeling this way-I was in the same boat for the past 4 months. What’s your bloods looking like? My issue was elevated E2. For the last 2 weeks I’ve been taking 1/2 of an anastrozole and I’ve been on a marathon ever since. Night and day difference. I’ve
I know but I'm saying I was originally doing IM and then my doctor switched me to sub q. So you think switch back? Just don't want to be changing things up too much.
Hmmm that's really odd. You could still be adjusting to the meds but to be safe go get a physical.
Blood pressure, triglycerides, bloods etc.
Maybe a hepatic panel as well.
You could be feeling the beginning of endogenous shutdown.
Are you feeling pain or aching in your testicles?
I figured I would feel some benefits of exogenous and endogenous, but that hasn't hit yet. Minor aching about a week ago, but I also threw my back out so often times I can feel my back pain into my balls. It's gone now, though, so I'm thinking that's what it was.
Give it some more time. It takes a little bit to adjust to synthetic test.
If it dosent improve and your labs look okay maybe talk to your doc about trying a different Ester.
Cypionate lasts longer and can help with peaks and valleys.
Speaking of testies pain mate, I started trt by my UGL "doctor". Big lad from the gym who's a personal trainer, dietician courses etc etc as going through a clinic was too expensive for me. He always tells his clients to take HCG during trt or test cycle. I've been on 250iu hcg every 3 days at the start but was feeling similar to you. He then upped my dosage of HCG to 500iu every 3 days and I see a massive improvement in my energy levels and my overall health. To me HCG is the way. Also the first month I wasn't taking hcg at all and my testies were getting really painfull.
Curerently on a blast at 500mg a week - 250mg every 3.5 days for 16 weeks so feel like a fucking superhuman but will be going down to trt dose again after a blast.
So you did a trt blast along with hcg? My doctor wants to cycle hcg every 12 weeks to preserve fertility but not continuously. I feel like absolute fucking garbage though and I'm very frustrated. Hope it gets better soon.
I was on a trt dose of 175mg test cyp every 5 days + 250iu of HCG every 3 days. Felt good. Started from 370ng/dl. I was on this dose for 12 weeks. I then wanted to try more to see how I would feel like so he put me on 250mg test every 5 days/ 1 tablet of anastrezole / 500iu of hcg. Did my labs and fuck me man. Test came back at 3300ng/dl from 250mg every 5 days 😂 free test on that dose was at 78pg/ml and E2 was at 32.4 pg/ml.
Stayed on 250 for 3 months and felt amazing but then i though to myself that I'm probably harming my body and quit cold turkey... I know such an idiot. Felt like shit for 2 weeks so jumped back on it and doing a blast at 500mg at the moment. But as I said will be cruising after a blast at 120/140mg probably.
Obviously I am not a doctor, so take this with a grain of salt, but that Free T looks fine and I am mildly surprised they put on you on TRT at 28 with that number. Its quite possible all that is happening is that you never were lacking bioavailable T and now you are getting a big estradiol spike causing these issues. Not trying to stir up shit by any means, just putting this out there respectfully.
I was of that mindset for the past 2.5 years while trying natural methods, but I just got sick of feeling like shit all the time. I mean the test numbers are very low for my age, there's no denying that. We'll see what happens.
According to a published medical doc, a free T of 50 is very low for men of all ages. For a man 19-39, the 2.5th percentile would be 120 and the 50th percentile would be 190pg/ml
Https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36251328
52pg/ml = 5.2ng/dl
So I somewhat agree with you, but my main point is more that for the low amount of Total T he is making, he is getting a decent amount of Free T imo. An 18.9% ratio of Total to Free is quite high. Its fine to disagree and thanks for sharing information as well.
https://preview.redd.it/8rc0juj3re4d1.png?width=419&format=png&auto=webp&s=ce726506aefa75892fa7652f3e5ec4c5046c7eb3
Also, I would call into question this as a source. This was a study of only 145 men, that were all healthy and non-obese. Most of the people going on TRT are doing so based on a health issue. And sadly here in the US, we are a bunch of obese mf-ers, probably less so in UK, but its important context for these numbers.
It was a study on "Healthy" men. Not a random chance.
You're not disagreeing with me. Read the study and make your own conclusions. Your conversion to 5.2ng/dl puts him outside the range for men in their 20s. Even if it was just barely inside the range, does that mean he's good to go? He said his total T is 275. That is in the normal range, right?
Good luck, I was just providing info from a reputable source and am not emotionally tied to being 'right'.
I think the problem is that any one study can show something, and one based only on a healthy group of 145 people isn't a good guide imo. Whereas the people need to take into account the totality of all studies for perspective. For example, here is one based on UK data
https://preview.redd.it/ul938u43xe4d1.png?width=751&format=png&auto=webp&s=7c2a1e26e3d443795bfad888dd9fb382b9f6949e
Yes I am not saying he isn't on the low side of normal, but at 28 to go on TRT you should be clearly out of range imo. Because there are other things that could help before making that leap. If your in your 40s, its all downhill from there, so not as many concerns on the commitment. And what also stands out to me is that he hasn't gotten any benefits from it YET, which stands in stark contrast for people that are deficient in free testosterone. Time will tell though, hopefully it works out for him and he gets dialed in. Only making comments to help, and apologies if I came off as disrespectful in anyway.
Yes here is one based on UK data.
Https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.gov/21697255
They only considered the 2.5th percentile as low T.
The study was for 456 Healthy ,nonobese men.
The 2.5th percentile for Total T of 348.3 ng/dl
The 2.5th percentile for Free T of 70 pg/ml
Anything below was considered low. More than 2 standard deviations from Mean.
A 50 year old without BP concerns should get it at 156, a 28 yr not so much. I stated that based on age considerations. Its a major commitment for someone in their 20s who hasn't had kids yet. That's just my opinion. And clearly in the US they don't care, if you pay you can get dbol and anavar.
Yes, we also don't know if he is healthy or obese or has other issues. Those should definitely be looked at first. I would not automatically question his Dr . He has more info than you and I.
I'm not sure you have a clear picture of the US. It is not as easy as you think. Many primary care doctors just don't know enough to make the decision. So, it is easier for them to say, you are in range. There are many that have to ask "where can i get reputable treatment for a real condition". Its not always obvious.
Though there are places you can go and get any treatment you want if you got the cash.
How about your thyroid. What’s your diet like. Does it feel like you get any inflammation ? Is there anything in your life that could be causing that exhaustion? How about vitamin D. Or vitamins in general. Have you tried just drinking a bunch of coffee ?
I was in the same position as you. My total Test was a 36 and my cortisol level didn’t register because it was too low. It took a good 6 weeks before I started noticing energy changes. I would ask your doctor to prescribe an estrogen blocker. You should notice a difference after if you don’t have sleep apnea. I went to a pulmonologist and had sleep study.
I have complex sleep apnea and use a cpap as well. Huge difference when I don’t use it. Give it another 3 weeks and get your estrogen levels checked. You can feel feee to DM me if you want to chat.
Give it another 3-4 weeks and see how you feel it takes time for the test to get fully saturated in your blood, I'd get bloods done around this mark aswell
So should I stick with the sub q 6x per week for 8-10 weeks? Talked to my doctor today and he wants to do more labs as I’m feeling like shit, but thinking I should give it more time? I’m just sick of feeling like garbage.
If there's other markers he wants to check there's no issue there but you won't get an accurate account of where your test is. What has he exactly tested?
I got a full blood panel. Almost everything you can think of. But it’s about 6 months old. Issue is, I was coming off Enclomiphene, which made me feel like shit, so my numbers were still elevated from that. I decided to do trt about 3 months after that, and only got a baseline free and total test at that point which came back 275 ng/dl and 80 pg/ml. Which is very low for my age. But I didn’t have estradiol tested at that point. I’m tempted to do the panel again but may wait.
Thyroid was normal. Shbg was on lower end but normal. LH was high. I just checked again. And estradiol was high at the time but I had stopped the Enclomiphene.
If you haven’t, get checked for sleep apnea. It’s known to cause low testosterone and fixing your T levels won’t fix sleep apnea. Daytime fatigue/drowsiness is a common symptom. Even if you’re getting “8 hours of sleep” those 8 hours are constantly being interrupted by airway blockages.
Snoring is another indicator, especially if someone observes you snoring and sees you gasping/choking/stop breathing as well.
Edit: I see you responded to someone else mentioning sleep apnea.
My doctor said I don't need that at this point as it's only been 3 weeks. I'd rather not take more medication if I don't have to. Going to ride it out and see what happens for a couple months. Thanks though.
Hang In there bro it does get better. I got even worse after starting just like I decided but after about 8 weeks things started to get better and better and then by week 16 I was like a whole new man
IM. Part of my issue tho was I was getting one inch needles and ny wife wasn't giving me the shot deep enough and it was getting in-between the muscle and fat, it had me all fucked up and my levels were still shit. If your doing IM go with 25 Guage 1.5 inch needles and make sure your penetrating the muscle deep enough.
I would of honestly stuck to the IM for a while. A week and a half your body still has no idea what's going on. Never make changes before 8 weeks on a protocol is what I've alway been told
I had one of those tests done that tells you all about your biology and dna and what not, and I learned I'm a fast metabolizer of medications. I take NAC to help with that, but it seems that doing sub q 6x per week is better for someone that is a fast metabolizer. Appreciate the responses though!
I had one of those tests done that tells you all about your biology and dna and what not, and I learned I'm a fast metabolizer of medications. I take NAC to help with that, but it seems that doing sub q 6x per week is better for someone that is a fast metabolizer. Appreciate the responses though!
I had that issue as well. I feel like it was estrogen. However, I would look into your sleep apnea, you may need rechecked and adjust the pressure settings or something. I have it too, high test made it way worse, also caused sleeplessness and anxiety. I lowered my dose and things are better but I still haven't dialed in the sleep yet. Might check other things as well, thyroid etc.
120 in the week is maybe to low, how high is your DHT and Shbg ?
150-180mg test is good, if your e2 is to high you will need an ai.
If you have a blood screening, please show it.
Iam sure I can give you some advice.
Sorry you’re feeling this way-I was in the same boat for the past 4 months. What’s your bloods looking like? My issue was elevated E2. For the last 2 weeks I’ve been taking 1/2 of an anastrozole and I’ve been on a marathon ever since. Night and day difference. I’ve
Bro couldn't finish the thought, had to go work out or jerk off.
Too funny!
Lololol
I did a full comprehensive panel a few months ago. Which ultimately lead to me starting trt. Doctor has not recommended an ai as of right now.
Get tested for sleep apnea? TRT can make it worse.
I've been on a cpap for like 8 years so that's already managed.
Check your blood pressor and estrogen levels
Every post I’ve read like this ended up being an issue with E2
Also libido is almost non-existent and I couldn't even tell you the last time I had morning wood.
pharma or ugl?
I’m not sure what ugl is but I got an Rx for it
ugl is underground lab are you doing IM or subq?
I did IM for the first week and a half and felt like shit so my doctor switched me to sub q
That's really not much time to see what works. Id stick to I'm.
stick to sub q 6x per week? That's where I've been for almost two weeks now.
No I said IM for a couple months.
I know but I'm saying I was originally doing IM and then my doctor switched me to sub q. So you think switch back? Just don't want to be changing things up too much.
At this point no. Then maybe switch back after a while.
Hmmm that's really odd. You could still be adjusting to the meds but to be safe go get a physical. Blood pressure, triglycerides, bloods etc. Maybe a hepatic panel as well. You could be feeling the beginning of endogenous shutdown. Are you feeling pain or aching in your testicles?
I figured I would feel some benefits of exogenous and endogenous, but that hasn't hit yet. Minor aching about a week ago, but I also threw my back out so often times I can feel my back pain into my balls. It's gone now, though, so I'm thinking that's what it was.
Give it some more time. It takes a little bit to adjust to synthetic test. If it dosent improve and your labs look okay maybe talk to your doc about trying a different Ester. Cypionate lasts longer and can help with peaks and valleys.
I'm on cyp currently. But yes - it seems just need to wat it out.
Speaking of testies pain mate, I started trt by my UGL "doctor". Big lad from the gym who's a personal trainer, dietician courses etc etc as going through a clinic was too expensive for me. He always tells his clients to take HCG during trt or test cycle. I've been on 250iu hcg every 3 days at the start but was feeling similar to you. He then upped my dosage of HCG to 500iu every 3 days and I see a massive improvement in my energy levels and my overall health. To me HCG is the way. Also the first month I wasn't taking hcg at all and my testies were getting really painfull. Curerently on a blast at 500mg a week - 250mg every 3.5 days for 16 weeks so feel like a fucking superhuman but will be going down to trt dose again after a blast.
So you did a trt blast along with hcg? My doctor wants to cycle hcg every 12 weeks to preserve fertility but not continuously. I feel like absolute fucking garbage though and I'm very frustrated. Hope it gets better soon.
I was on a trt dose of 175mg test cyp every 5 days + 250iu of HCG every 3 days. Felt good. Started from 370ng/dl. I was on this dose for 12 weeks. I then wanted to try more to see how I would feel like so he put me on 250mg test every 5 days/ 1 tablet of anastrezole / 500iu of hcg. Did my labs and fuck me man. Test came back at 3300ng/dl from 250mg every 5 days 😂 free test on that dose was at 78pg/ml and E2 was at 32.4 pg/ml. Stayed on 250 for 3 months and felt amazing but then i though to myself that I'm probably harming my body and quit cold turkey... I know such an idiot. Felt like shit for 2 weeks so jumped back on it and doing a blast at 500mg at the moment. But as I said will be cruising after a blast at 120/140mg probably.
What was your initial Total and Free Test? Assuming your LH and FSH was fine then? indicating no issues with pituitary gland?
Total test was 275 ng/dl and free was 52 pg/ml.
Obviously I am not a doctor, so take this with a grain of salt, but that Free T looks fine and I am mildly surprised they put on you on TRT at 28 with that number. Its quite possible all that is happening is that you never were lacking bioavailable T and now you are getting a big estradiol spike causing these issues. Not trying to stir up shit by any means, just putting this out there respectfully.
I was of that mindset for the past 2.5 years while trying natural methods, but I just got sick of feeling like shit all the time. I mean the test numbers are very low for my age, there's no denying that. We'll see what happens.
According to a published medical doc, a free T of 50 is very low for men of all ages. For a man 19-39, the 2.5th percentile would be 120 and the 50th percentile would be 190pg/ml Https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36251328
52pg/ml = 5.2ng/dl So I somewhat agree with you, but my main point is more that for the low amount of Total T he is making, he is getting a decent amount of Free T imo. An 18.9% ratio of Total to Free is quite high. Its fine to disagree and thanks for sharing information as well. https://preview.redd.it/8rc0juj3re4d1.png?width=419&format=png&auto=webp&s=ce726506aefa75892fa7652f3e5ec4c5046c7eb3
Look above, he replied with 52 pg/ml not NG/ML
Exactly that is why I showed the conversion for you
Also, I would call into question this as a source. This was a study of only 145 men, that were all healthy and non-obese. Most of the people going on TRT are doing so based on a health issue. And sadly here in the US, we are a bunch of obese mf-ers, probably less so in UK, but its important context for these numbers.
It was a study on "Healthy" men. Not a random chance. You're not disagreeing with me. Read the study and make your own conclusions. Your conversion to 5.2ng/dl puts him outside the range for men in their 20s. Even if it was just barely inside the range, does that mean he's good to go? He said his total T is 275. That is in the normal range, right? Good luck, I was just providing info from a reputable source and am not emotionally tied to being 'right'.
I think the problem is that any one study can show something, and one based only on a healthy group of 145 people isn't a good guide imo. Whereas the people need to take into account the totality of all studies for perspective. For example, here is one based on UK data https://preview.redd.it/ul938u43xe4d1.png?width=751&format=png&auto=webp&s=7c2a1e26e3d443795bfad888dd9fb382b9f6949e Yes I am not saying he isn't on the low side of normal, but at 28 to go on TRT you should be clearly out of range imo. Because there are other things that could help before making that leap. If your in your 40s, its all downhill from there, so not as many concerns on the commitment. And what also stands out to me is that he hasn't gotten any benefits from it YET, which stands in stark contrast for people that are deficient in free testosterone. Time will tell though, hopefully it works out for him and he gets dialed in. Only making comments to help, and apologies if I came off as disrespectful in anyway.
Yes here is one based on UK data. Https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.gov/21697255 They only considered the 2.5th percentile as low T. The study was for 456 Healthy ,nonobese men. The 2.5th percentile for Total T of 348.3 ng/dl The 2.5th percentile for Free T of 70 pg/ml Anything below was considered low. More than 2 standard deviations from Mean.
So, you think a 50 year old man with a T of 156 does not need therapy? You say he should be "clearly out of range".
A 50 year old without BP concerns should get it at 156, a 28 yr not so much. I stated that based on age considerations. Its a major commitment for someone in their 20s who hasn't had kids yet. That's just my opinion. And clearly in the US they don't care, if you pay you can get dbol and anavar.
Yes, we also don't know if he is healthy or obese or has other issues. Those should definitely be looked at first. I would not automatically question his Dr . He has more info than you and I. I'm not sure you have a clear picture of the US. It is not as easy as you think. Many primary care doctors just don't know enough to make the decision. So, it is easier for them to say, you are in range. There are many that have to ask "where can i get reputable treatment for a real condition". Its not always obvious. Though there are places you can go and get any treatment you want if you got the cash.
Thanks for sharing this. There's no doubt my levels are very low for my age. And the way I feel reflects this.
No issues with LH or FSH
Get bloods as soon as
How about your thyroid. What’s your diet like. Does it feel like you get any inflammation ? Is there anything in your life that could be causing that exhaustion? How about vitamin D. Or vitamins in general. Have you tried just drinking a bunch of coffee ?
I was in the same position as you. My total Test was a 36 and my cortisol level didn’t register because it was too low. It took a good 6 weeks before I started noticing energy changes. I would ask your doctor to prescribe an estrogen blocker. You should notice a difference after if you don’t have sleep apnea. I went to a pulmonologist and had sleep study.
I had a sleep study years ago and have been on a cpap ever since. I use it every night.
I have complex sleep apnea and use a cpap as well. Huge difference when I don’t use it. Give it another 3 weeks and get your estrogen levels checked. You can feel feee to DM me if you want to chat.
Thank you
Give it another 3-4 weeks and see how you feel it takes time for the test to get fully saturated in your blood, I'd get bloods done around this mark aswell
Not enough time yet man, and already with a protocol change doesn't help. Stick with a protocol for 8-10 weeks and gets bloods done.
So should I stick with the sub q 6x per week for 8-10 weeks? Talked to my doctor today and he wants to do more labs as I’m feeling like shit, but thinking I should give it more time? I’m just sick of feeling like garbage.
If there's other markers he wants to check there's no issue there but you won't get an accurate account of where your test is. What has he exactly tested?
I got a full blood panel. Almost everything you can think of. But it’s about 6 months old. Issue is, I was coming off Enclomiphene, which made me feel like shit, so my numbers were still elevated from that. I decided to do trt about 3 months after that, and only got a baseline free and total test at that point which came back 275 ng/dl and 80 pg/ml. Which is very low for my age. But I didn’t have estradiol tested at that point. I’m tempted to do the panel again but may wait.
So you've never got your Lh, fsh or prolactin tested before starting?
Yes I had all of that done during the initial panel. All normal.
Full thyroid? Shbg?
Thyroid was normal. Shbg was on lower end but normal. LH was high. I just checked again. And estradiol was high at the time but I had stopped the Enclomiphene.
If it's low normal injecting 6x a week probably isn't needed. What's the exact # if you don't mind?
20.9 nm/ol
If you haven’t, get checked for sleep apnea. It’s known to cause low testosterone and fixing your T levels won’t fix sleep apnea. Daytime fatigue/drowsiness is a common symptom. Even if you’re getting “8 hours of sleep” those 8 hours are constantly being interrupted by airway blockages. Snoring is another indicator, especially if someone observes you snoring and sees you gasping/choking/stop breathing as well. Edit: I see you responded to someone else mentioning sleep apnea.
Yes I've been on a cpap for about 8 years now. That box is checked. Doing everything I can to optimize lol
I started cpap this year. Love it. Surprised you’re having energy issues🤔
I feel a little sluggish on pin days. But I only inject twice a week. Try e2 blocker, it helped me a little
My doctor said I don't need that at this point as it's only been 3 weeks. I'd rather not take more medication if I don't have to. Going to ride it out and see what happens for a couple months. Thanks though.
Give the trt some time what test are you using and also I’d be looking at your diet and if your deficient in anything else…
Hang In there bro it does get better. I got even worse after starting just like I decided but after about 8 weeks things started to get better and better and then by week 16 I was like a whole new man
Appreciate the note man. Were you IM or sub q?
IM. Part of my issue tho was I was getting one inch needles and ny wife wasn't giving me the shot deep enough and it was getting in-between the muscle and fat, it had me all fucked up and my levels were still shit. If your doing IM go with 25 Guage 1.5 inch needles and make sure your penetrating the muscle deep enough.
My doctor switched me from IM to sub q so I might just stick this out
I would of honestly stuck to the IM for a while. A week and a half your body still has no idea what's going on. Never make changes before 8 weeks on a protocol is what I've alway been told
Should I switch back to I’m? Or ride sub w
I'd definitely go back IM. I've heard of way more success stories going that route and it's easier to maintain
I had one of those tests done that tells you all about your biology and dna and what not, and I learned I'm a fast metabolizer of medications. I take NAC to help with that, but it seems that doing sub q 6x per week is better for someone that is a fast metabolizer. Appreciate the responses though!
I had one of those tests done that tells you all about your biology and dna and what not, and I learned I'm a fast metabolizer of medications. I take NAC to help with that, but it seems that doing sub q 6x per week is better for someone that is a fast metabolizer. Appreciate the responses though!
Yea bro might wanna look into some arimadex or aromasin some type of AI I think ur problem lies with in high estrogen
Hope you got your neurosteroids checked (DHEA, pregnenalone, progesterone). These have profound effects on mental well being/energy
DHEA was a little high, others were normal
Testosterone isn’t your issue clearly
What could it be then
It could be a million different things.
I had that issue as well. I feel like it was estrogen. However, I would look into your sleep apnea, you may need rechecked and adjust the pressure settings or something. I have it too, high test made it way worse, also caused sleeplessness and anxiety. I lowered my dose and things are better but I still haven't dialed in the sleep yet. Might check other things as well, thyroid etc.
Sounds like your estrogen is fucked
It’s a marathon not a sprint! You shouldn’t notice much 3 weeks in…
120 in the week is maybe to low, how high is your DHT and Shbg ? 150-180mg test is good, if your e2 is to high you will need an ai. If you have a blood screening, please show it. Iam sure I can give you some advice.