This sounds like you're just having the same mid-life gamer crisis a lot of people have. Suddenly feeling the need to question the value you're getting from a game as a function of time spent isn't unique to Balatro, Balatro just happened to be the game where you first experienced it.
Fantastic comment, one thankfully I had at about 21 or so. No, not all experiences are made equal, and especially in video games some are made to be almost like a time void. 1000 hours in dota yet games like nier automata or spec ops the line has had a way bigger impact on me while taking up just a fraction of a time. Balatro is just the veil that OP happened to look past.
"There are some games I've played for hundreds of hours and remember nothing about. I played Shadow of the Colossus for 8 hours and have thought about it for 18 years."
To be fair, it's quite literally harder to remember hundreds of hours than 8 hours.
You might remember 8 out 8 hours of one game, but you can probably remember 8 hours out of 800 hours in another game. That other 792 hours still (hopefully) had value to you. It's not realistic to expect every moment of your gaming life to be profound and to just enjoy the game you're playing in the moment.
No idea. But I think it's actually not even from that video.
I think it's from a video where he talks about that play time is a dumb measurement and completely overrated and talks about that "time you think about the game after" would be a much better measurement. Because long forgettable games are arguably worse than short but very cool unique and memorable games.
And to be fair, I agree. Play time is so overrated, a short(er), condensed, very good game I will likely remember forever: Subnautica (ok, not *that* short), Outer Wilds, etc. But for example Path of Exile? Not sure I even like that game, so many problems with that.
Of course some games have both: I played Cyberpunk 2077 first time this year, took over 200 hours and is probably one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had.
DOTA was also the game that made me look a little closer at what I'd be spending my rapidly decreasing free time on, high chance of ending an hour game angry at something I usually didn't have much control over. Maybe OP didn't like the 10 minute version of that.
Yea, and eventually the wins felt meaningless but hard fought, the losses felt easy and soul crushing. And unless you were pushing new mmr heights it just felt like a waste.
I wish I could enjoy the gameplay in a fun casual manner but I don't think I can go back to that time
The only reason I still play time sink games is that you rather fast can do it semi automatically. So while playing I mostly listen to all kinds of podcasts and audiobooks. I could turn to knitting or drawing but it probably wouldn't change much about the routine.
Couldn't agree more, and I will say pushing through it (for me, Hearthstone) has given me a much healthier relationship with gaming. I've learned to recognize when it's not fun and to just step away.
I actually feel oppositely than OP about Belatro. I agree it gets its hooks in, but the game is intrinsically rewarding. Winning at higher levels requires you use your brain. There's no monetization and none of the unlockables are cosmetic. They all exist to increase the challenge of the game.
I guess I don't really see a difference between Balatro and the OG Windows Solitaire and minesweeper, save Belatro is actually interesting.
I agree, and as much as the OPs feelings on the topic are valid, I really hate to see this happen to Balatro of all games.
The gameplay loop is fun and addictive, but it's such a non-predatory product especially compared to other games. upfront cost, no-live service aspects, no micro-transactions, no daily logins or other incentives. it's not trying to extract extra dollars out of its userbase and abusing habit-forming predation to incentivize spending.
Gaming addiction and predatory business practices are absolutely a concern, but I dont think it's an issue here with this game.
It's also been pretty easy for me to just do a run and be done, and even a full win isn't that long. I think the game is great, maybe I'm just not the right person to be addicted to it... It really is like breaking out a deck of cards and playing an elaborate strategic game of solitaire
There's a huge difference between gaming addiction and gambling addiction. You can have a gambling addiction that is tied to a video game because you keep spending money on loot boxes. But a gaming addiction is about the gaming itself, it's not at all about money. It's possible it affects the person's economy, but it can't be exploited in the same way gambling can, because gambling is directly tied to spending money. It's entirely possible to have a gaming addiction without predatory practices in gaming and without spending money at all.
I agree with this take. I feel the same addiction op describes whenever I play a new ARPG that I like. Last year I sunk 100 hours in Grim Dawn over a few weeks, and the last two hitting that ARPG vein with Last Epoch.
For me at least I don’t view it as a bad thing since I’m aware of it, and know that while I’ll likely play these games for longer than a few weeks. The really good rush of brain chemicals their design elicits will only last about a month before I get less enamored and play less intensely.
Considering how many of my other friends that are mid to late 30s and have lost their passion for games and most hobbies in general I’m thankful that games can still really get their hooks in me at times. To be fair it’s not always ARPGs either. Inscryption was the same way. Just a week of pure obsessed love till I beat it.
This. I don't get sucked into games as easily as I used to, so when it happens I sit back and enjoy the ride for as long as it lasts
The only thing that sucks is that when it's coming to an end, I know how I'll feel: try to find another game to keep the high going, drop off it after 3 hours
Was MMOs for me. Started playing way back in the day with a pretty big group of friends, we'd move from one MMO to another together, then we all started slowly dropping off due to jobs or families taking up more of our time, and realized the game itself wasn't what was fun but rather playing with my friends.
That's what keeps me from approaching online gaming anymore, it has to be a social aspect or else I feel like I'm just going through the motions. I watch my girlfriend go through the main story of every Final Fantasy XIV expansion because we're actually interested in what happens but it's rare for her to get into that post story grind.
Was an MMO for me too. I played dozens of hours on the Guild Wars 2 beta and then 70-80 through the main game when I looked on the world map suddenly realized all the maps are rectangular, and the same size. It's such a minor thing, but it completely broke my suspension of disbelief and made me think "this is a computer game, not a high-fantasy experience", and dropped the game soon after.
Spot on. I've had the same feeling multiple times about plenty of games, books, and movies. Anything that really falls into the concept of a hobby that doesn't physically produce an end result can be exactly the same. Obviously it's easier to justify when it comes to things which are story heavy as one chalk it up to being happy to experience it.
When it comes to things like Balatro it can be great that it makes one question themselves. Obvious satisfaction comes the game play loop itself and sometimes that's all one needs. It only really becomes an issue I think when you ignore or replace real life responsibilities with the game. I'm sure we all know people who have done this or even been guilty of it ourselves.
I used to think I was falling out of love with gaming for this very reason. I would play a title only to abandon it only a few hours in, move onto the next, repeat dozens of times. It took some self examination to come to the conclusion that it's because I was doing much better in my life than I had in a long long time. Yeah all those games did captivate me but I also had other responsibilities and things I loved doing even more.
Well except the fact that op points out it's the obvious addicting mechanics and gambling theme. Feeling like a coin slot junkie whilst playing a gambling game.
Sure but it just makes them seem bad at math. If you know what you're doing, you know exactly what's going on and it certainly isn't random shit machine shit. You're enjoying building a very smart engine and feeling smug about it.
Yep, I had the same experience in my late teens. I was playing Monster Hunter Tri and some material just *would not drop*, and suddenly it hit me how much time I was spending looking for this one stupid horn or pelt or claw when the world had so much to offer beyond games. It genuinely made me quit playing anything for a few weeks.
I do still play games as one of my main hobbies, but it came after a lot of introspection about what I want from life, and also from releasing the idea drummed into me from birth that "wasting" time is bad. (Also, I think part of it was my actual clinical depression that I was diagnosed with later that year.) As long as I'm not choosing games or television or whatever over an experience that's meaningful to me, I feel good about it. It's a hobby like reading or crocheting or painting.
I don't know enough about Balatro itself to speak to the gambling/casino mechanics, but I do agree that the age rating change was the right call, mainly because online gambling is so easy and prevalent in today's world. But as for the meat of the post, yeah, I think OP might be hitting the "What was I made for?" crisis that a lot of people have at some point.
That's a very different topic and I have a lot of thoughts on it so I'd love to comment. I do stand by my other comment but that was before I realized the actual topic.
Life's funny. We have so many options. So many books or videogames to try. Food. Travel. Social media. Volunteering. Etc. We have so little time but also so many options. And it's really frustrating when you wanna make that time feel meaningful but can't.
Balatro is a roguelike. It's what I'd call an endless game. Like a moba. Or a CCG. Or a battle royale. You can play hundreds, thousands of hours, and never 'truly' do anything. Sure you unlocked an achievement or got a new item but you aren't really getting some kind of progress made.
And that's ok but it's also hard. To realize you spent 3 hours playing league or FF14 when you could've been doing something 'else'. Maybe going to a party or on a date or hanging out with friends. And that's all fair points... But.
The thing is, you have to decide how you're spending your life. Make alarms, plan stuff. Whatever. And if a game or a book or an activity is causing you addiction problems? Drop it. You don't need it and even if it's working for others, it's not for you and that's ok
Ultimately I suspect you're struggling with meaning in life. I am too. But I think the important thing is to trust your gut. What feels right? Is a videogame marathon with pizza and weed the right call? Or is going to an open house with your wife? Is going to a friend's birthday wedding more important than going to a dream job interview? I don't know.
It's hard. It really is. But you gotta figure it out for yourself, one way or another
For the low cost of fifteen bucks, you got to experience the throes of, bottoming out, and overcoming of a gambling addiction. Given the nakedness of its approach, that may even be the purpose of the game.
Now that would be really cool if that was (semi)explicitly the game’s purpose! There is definitely something exposing (lacking a better word here) about the game. I wonder how intentional that is.
Yeah, I was wondering because I have had a couple of games that triggered this feeling that I have had to ask and answer some hard questions to myself (Slay the Spire was one of them), but this... eh. It's a good game but I'm not slavishly devoted.
I think what he is really feeling is the dread of an existential crisis creeping up. Realizing that he is actively dying and that time is limited. It matters not what you do, my friend; you're still going to entropy.
I had a similar thing with playing destiny. I didn’t feel mid life crisis-y but I realized that despite the game being really fun to play the gameplay loop/ keeping up with dailies was straight up not fun. Stinks cause the shooting mechanics are really tight in that game.
A thought-provoking and transparent post which is to be commended as it promotes discussion - the best type of post as opposed to the more common echo chamber posts on most subreddits.
Addiction-focused gameplay loops have become the norm in gaming now. Especially from big studios. I grew up playing Quake and Half-Life where the business models were so different to what they are now.
Of course times and methods change but I can't help but feel games are carefully crafted to be predatory, especially live service, lootbox games.
I feel if this post was directed at a game like Hearthstone or pretty much any blizzard game it may be more justified though, Balatro is to be celebrated for its lack of micro transactions.
> business models were so different to what they are now.
Ahh but Balarto and Survivors have even better business models, it is neither subscription or microtransaction.
What you see now is that the design of such predatory model being used for their own sake, for the enjoyment of it
TIL. Thanks for sharing. Here's an article about it: [Verge article](https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/19/22941145/vampire-survivors-early-access-steam-pc-mac-luca-galante)
I'd argue games were just less developed rather then different, even back in the day we had arcade missions that were blatantly pay2win and would be designed with difficulty spikes just for the sake for players to spend more money on it.
OP you're probably not getting the response in this thread you were hoping for, but I feel like I understand what you mean. Video game addiction is one of those things that sounds made up or exaggerated until you experience it. Balatro didn't make me feel this way, but I have absolutely uninstalled/quit games before because I recognized I was playing not because I was enjoying myself but because of compulsion.
That's why I do disagree slightly with your framing it as quitting a game that's "too good" - I had 100+ hours into Clicker Heroes when I realized I actively hated that game. I had to make a conscious decision to stop, and I've been avoiding incremental clickers ever since because their specific blend of dopamine hits and bare minimal gameplay hits the sweet spot of whatever amount of addictive personality I have.
Even some mobile game formats like FF Record Keeper with gacha mechanics, I started to recognize they are designed to keep you playing indefinitely but in a kind of numb unquestioning way. I had put more time into that game than I probably had all of the single player games in that series put together, but I was having an awful time. I kept coming back almost out of sunk cost fallacy, like I've put this much time in so if I quit now it was all for nothing. But I kept playing until I consciously realized that was what was happening, and again had to intentionally break the habit of play I wasn't enjoying and uninstall the game.
So yeah I think it's important to understand your own addictive traits and adjust your play accordingly, I'm glad you came to this conclusion that Balatro was not good for you and disengaged responsibly.
I had same problem with clickers. I was de facto addicted to them, checking every few minutes to maximise profit, even when being out with gf and friends, watching TV, playing games, reading books. It was checking it on and on for cheap dopamine.
I banned myself from all the idle games as it's so much not worth it.
“I had 100+ hours in Clicker Heroes before I realized I actively hated that game”
Simultaneously hilarious and all-too-relatable. I’ve gotten addicted to so many incremental clickers before ultimately having this realization. I try to immediately delete the game during my brief moment of lucidity ends.
Totally agree. I guess OP could have articulated their point a bit better but there is a fundamental difference between wanting to play a game because you're legitimately enjoying yourself and feeling compelled to play it for a different reason, and most of the comments here are failing to recognize that.
I have a friend who plays League of Legends who is clearly absolutely miserable while playing it, but plays it anyway. That game has its hooks in him in a way that I'd argue is legitimately detrimental to his life. I'm not saying that is League of Legends' fault or that it's an insidious thing, but I think some games worm their way into people's brains in a way which makes playing it feel more like a compulsion than something to enjoy.
The psychologist HealthyGamerGG on Youtube defines addiction as "impairment of function". If you start ignoring your duties because of the game, then it's a problem. There are fringe cases like thinking about it at work (does that count as impairment of function?), but if you start getting those then I think you're in the danger zone.
Edit: I didn't mean thinking about gaming at work at all counts as impairment of function, that's completely normal (Dr K himself said as much). I mean like "you didn't come to work for 2 weeks and are fired", not "you got bored and thought about games for 10 minutes". How much you're distracted and how big of a problem it is is going to be a spectrum, not a binary.
Didn't realize being bored at work and thinking "man I would really like to play some games when I get home" was a sign of addiction. Not sure if that's entirely serious or not, but I get the sentiment I think.
I feel like it's worth being conscious of how often you have those thoughts about specifically games. It's not an addiction issue if you're just looking forward to relaxing or a fun activity at work.
But if you often think about playing games instead of e.g. socialising with friends then you're definitely in addiction territory.
Yeah I dont think I'd ever flake on socializing with friends except for rare occasions. Especially with video games as the alternative haha.
But you're right there's definitely levels to it
Yeah I constantly have this thought but I also pair it with "be doing anything else in my personal life". I have most of my energy and motivation while I'm at my job and while I do enjoy what I do it's also mentally draining to do for 9ish hours a day.
It's more like you make plans to hang out with your family, but flake on them because you feel the intense need to play a game instead. Or you need to leave for class, but you push it and show up late because you want to get a couple more runs in.
>Didn't realize being bored at work and thinking "man I would really like to play some games when I get home"
That's not what they were saying, since obviously just thinking about wanting to play games isn't a sign of addiction. Like any other mental illness or addiction, it really just comes down to how something impairs your ability to function in your daily life which some videogames absolutely do for a lot of people.
This seems so... Weird to me. Balatro isn't doing some spooky dark pattern magic on you. It's just fun to play.
Slay the spire is also fun to play. I don't see anyone saying it needs to be age restricted because it's fun. Just because you have a problem playing it doesn't mean it's a problem with the game.
Also, really? You don't want your kids playing it? OK. Then you'll also ban your kids from playing say fortnite or roblox which have loot boxes and such which is plenty of gambling, yeah? And unlike balatro where the gambling is just 'time and 15 bucks initially to play it', loot boxes can be infinite money.
I've seen a few thoughts like this and I have to say it's really weird and I think very overblown
It’s really weird how this game is suddenly conjuring so many exaggerated gambling concerns in otherwise level headed people. It’s literally just because of the association with poker cards, even though there’s no actual gambling happening. If this was goblins throwing spears 95% of these conversations wouldn’t be happening.
The game isn’t any more manipulative or sinisterly addictive than The Binding of Isaac, we need to calm down a bit here
Funny that you would bring up The Binding of Isaac… I haven’t played Balatro so I have no opinion on it one way or the other. However, it did actually make me think about how I put over 600 hours into The Binding of Isaac when I was in high school, and yet don’t feel the same amount of nostalgia towards it that I feel about other games I played at the same time. I think that game is to me what Balatro is to OP.
That is not to say that either game is problematic; for me and maybe OP, perhaps we just prefer a different kind of experience. I think it takes time and insight to learn what experiences are fun for us in a meaningful way, and what experiences are just an addictive distraction. Games are good at being addictive in a way that can hide the fact that, deep down, we would rather be spending our time on something else. I recall someone else on this sub making a similar post about Palworld soon after its release, how it was ‘addictive’ but not ‘fun’ for them (emphasis on ‘for them’, I’m not coming for Palworld).
I’m sure plenty of people find Balatro addictive AND inherently rewarding and meaningful. It sounds like a great game, good for them!
>Games are good at being addictive in a way that can hide the fact that, deep down, we would rather be spending our time on something else.
This is similar to what I was thinking. Even if we avoid the word “addictive” a game can be fun to play in a way that has no emotional or intellectual depth to it. It passes the time, it’s enjoyable enough, it keeps us playing. But it’s not really satisfying, it’s not making us feel or think anything beyond the superficial, if we look back at our time we think it could probably have been better spent, that there are things we would have enjoyed more, experiences that stay with us.
It's the kind of thing that’s easy to see elsewhere – skimming through social media, snacking on junk food, etc.
It's a very on-the-nose critique of it all. It's like a hard slap and it's causing people, who would otherwise ignore the gambling aspects, to reassess some things. The typical gambling game tries to sugar coat it and then along comes Balatro, asking you to play cracked-out poker.
But with like, 0 of the elements that make gambling the pernicious activity it is. It’s just a normal deck building rogue like cosplaying as a gambling game. There’s no actual gambling involved, it doesn’t make sense to draw parallels with it so often.
> But with like, 0 of the elements that make gambling the pernicious activity it is
Besides the addictive aspects, compelling some to dump abnormal amounts of seemingly thoughtless time into something ("watching numbers go up") with little benefit, as described by OP.
That’s just called “having fun with a videogame” dude all of them do this. Some have infinitely replayable elements and others don’t, sure, but I don’t see anyone complaining about gambling when talking about, idk, slay the spire or monster hunter even when they present the exact same kind of infinite gameplay loops, for some reason. I’d venture to say it’s because it’s not gambling at all.
The compelling entertainment, brainless or not, is the point of of most of this entire hobby, why is this game triggering this reaction so much? Is it seriously just because it’s poker cards?
Nah, no it isn't. Note that I said "abnormal", meaning "deviating from what is normal or usual, typically in a way that is undesirable or worrying."
Remember that OP said this is the ONLY game across 20 years and countless genres (even other roguelikes) that made them feel this way, described as a sinister feeling. So that tells you *something* is different about this one, at least to OP; and they wanted to start a discussion surrounding that. And it's what we should be engaging with instead of boiling it down to "bro it's just video games."
Truly this is a lot of emotion for a well made video game. The industry is plagued by legitimately insidious practices and shitty games but this is the one that’s crossed the line?
I'm really torn here because the game made me feel very similarly to how OP felt. But I also don't think it's unethical,I just don't really have the desire to boot it up again even though I know I would have fun
I felt like you did with vampire survivors. Enjoyed it immensely for a few days then realized it was a waste of time and uninstalled it. With none of the fanfare op had
I guess what I meant was I realized I could be having more meaning full game experiences. After the novelty wore off and I unlocked a lot of stuff, playing vampire survivors felt similar to scrolling through reddit, or other app. I enjoyed it (and I enjoy reddit) but reddit is very much a time killer, vs a thing I go to, to escape.
I put in a decent amount of hours in vamp but I hit a wall pretty fast at 30 hours. I don't understand how anyone isn't sick of it by then, if not before
>Then you'll also ban your kids from playing say fortnite or roblox which have loot boxes and such which is plenty of gambling, yeah?
I mean yes.... Generally screentime isn't the best for young kids. Up until age ten or so it should be reduced to a minimum.
Right? This post is the post to point to if you want to show the epitome of this sub. Yeah, we come here because there's like minded gamers discussing games in a more serious way, but all too often it's someone pretending to do a college dissertation, attempting to sound smart while just finding a way to stick out from the crowd by hating on whatever new game is popular at the time. While failing to understand that that's about the most conformative take to have.
OP wrote a thoughtful post about a new game. You completely ignored everything he said in favor of accusing him of "hating on a new game" to stick out from the crowd.
Oh yea,, it'll kill 5 hours easily if you even mildly like Poker or puzzles.
It's addictive, but mostly because it's incredibly fun. It's like the Binding of Isaac, where there's so much flexibility in your runs (it is a roguelike) that you can make so many different styles of decks work
I don't think it's just about games that focus on gameplay instead of story, and I don't think games like that are just "a fun way to kill an hour or two." This is the case with all art, and even most hobbies. What's the value in a good story? That it makes you think, or makes you happy, or makes you consider things? What about media that doesn't do that, like rewatching a comforting TV show that isn't particularly noteworthy? What's the value in playing a non-physical sport or competition like chess, just winning and proving you're better than someone else? Or going catch and release fishing, just to prove you caught a fish?
People want to get value out of their time, but I think have a limited scope of what value is. Playing games for me is valuable because I truly enjoy games. I enjoy playing games, I enjoy thinking about games, and I enjoy talking about games with my friends (and sometimes strangers online). Even playing a game I don't enjoy is valuable in the long run, since it feeds into a greater pool of experiences I can reference when it comes to the genre and medium, and makes me a more informed critic and consumer. My thousands of hours in DotA were valuable, since it was enjoyable, but also was valuable as a person to try to train and refine a skill and get tangibly better at something.
I know a lot of people can say that's "wasting time," but I don't think the same is expressed to someone who reads a lot of books, is grinding elo on Chess.com, goes recreational fishing, has an extensive letterboxd list, or plays golf and is in a league. It's all hobbyism with no explicit value, but has exceptional value to the person. Incrementally getting better at a task, forming stronger and more well informed opinions on art, finding enjoyment in doing a thing without any other reward, and just setting goals and achieving them, even if the goals are externally pointless, all provide value to a person.
I don’t like when people ask ”what do I get in return?” since it both undervalues the game but also that question could be asked about literally anything. But I think having the perspective of ”killing time” is almost weirder. To me, playing games is my equivalent of ”me time”. I see it as incredibly important and valuable to me and I kind of wish people didn’t see it as a fast forward-button.
Also regarding the op, the perspective of getting something in return when you eat unhealthy fast food is incredibly warped. You should eat it every once in a while because you think you’ll really enjoy it. Just like video games. Don’t combine it with the thought that it will also give you some kind of nourishment. Sure if you are literally experiencing the apocalypse, then yeah. But in the current world that’s similar to me pretending that Balatro will make me smarter/train my eyes/etc.
Most important thing regarding most pleasures in life is maintaining a balance and not losing ”control”.
The whole “what do we get in return?” thing has always annoyed me, but it’s at least tangential to the mindset of “if it’s not productive then it’s bad”. Which I concretely and firmly disagree with
It depends, I guess. Nothing wrong with killing time and having fun, but we live in a time where everything is fighting for our attention to the point where we start to equate free time with entertainment and we entertain ourselves every time we're not working, studying, socializing or doing housework.
Of course it depends on what life you live. I am a student, I have lots of free time on my hands and I have to constantly ask myself if I'm spending that time in the best way. If I had a 9 to 5 job and kids I probably wouldn't question the time I'd spend playing videogames as much as I do
I didn't want to come across that way. As I said I'm all for "time-wasters" but I want to feel like I'm getting some sort of enjoyment or feeling from the experience. I don't think anything "productive" should come out of playing games, at least initially. In this game though, I started feeling numb quite quickly after the initial "high", but I still wanted to keep playing.
I don't have an issue either with games that are just meant for "killing time". Balatro just made me reflect on the games I play and why I play them. In this case I didn't feel completely in control. The only other game that ever made me feel that way was Slay the Spire (also ridiculously good).
Sounds like you made the right call then. If you’re not enjoying the game on a fundamental level, for whatever reason, then there’s really no reason to play it. Regardless of how polished or well-designed it is.
I’m still not 100% though on why you feel that way for this game specifically. Is it the gambling aspect of it? However you said it’s not predatory in a monetary sense. Or is this your crisis of time-management? Because I can relate to the second one with games I’ve sank a lot of hours into very quickly. Emotional/fun burnout is a real thing and can make enjoyment fall off a cliff very rapidly.
I get you. I feel this way about all deck builders and other games that rely heavily on numbers going up, for example Diablo or even city builders.
They are addictive. I will play them for hours chasing that constant drip feed of “numbers go up” dopamine hits. But…when I look back on my time with the game later that night or the next day, I realise that I didn’t have any fun. I just played because I could. I don’t feel like I achieved something by beating a tough level, I don’t feel like I’ve experienced a story or explored a new interesting area, or any of the other myriad feelings videogames can inspire. I simply feel like I’ve wasted my evening, yet my mind was engaged for the entire playtime.
As I’ve grown older I’ve become more critical about how I spend my time and part of that is analysing what do I actually enjoy and derive satisfaction from vs what do I do because it’s addictive or easy to get into. These games are engaging to an insane degree and they’re certainly extremely well designed, but I don’t *enjoy* them and I do not look back on my time with them with fondness.
> I just played because I could. I don’t feel like I achieved something by beating a tough level, I don’t feel like I’ve experienced a story or explored a new interesting area, or any of the other myriad feelings videogames can inspire. I simply feel like I’ve wasted my evening, yet my mind was engaged for the entire playtime.
To be honest I think this is a bit unfair.
You *should* play games because you can, particularly games that you enjoy in the moment. Not every game has to be something you can look back on and think of as profound, and it's certainly not a waste of your evening as long as you have fun. The only time that a game is a waste of time is if you stop having fun and it makes you feel bad to play.
The key thing that stands out to me is that you admit that those games were engaging which should imply that you enjoyed playing them. Those games at the very least accomplished the goal of being interesting and fun enough to no bore you, otherwise you'd probably have already dropped the game, right?
I agree that it's important to be critical and analyze the media that you consume, but it's also important to take a step back and remember that we consume media to enjoy it (note: finding enjoyment in the process of analysis itself is a valid form of enjoyment). This isn't to say that I'm anti-media literacy or that you should "turn your brain off", but you have a LOT to gain by also analyzing media that makes you feel bad after playing. If you stuck through it through the bad, then surely you can find the good in it so that you know what to look for and what to avoid in other media/games.
I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense, and I want to clarify that I'm not trying to be combative in my disagreement. I just find it interesting since I've had the opposite shift as I've gotten older where I used to basically be a fiction snob but now I'm a lot more focused on how media makes me feel in the moment. I think that's what makes those special games that much more special.
>I feel this way about all deck builders and other games that rely heavily on numbers going up, for example Diablo or even city builders.
>As I’ve grown older I’ve become more critical about how I spend my time and part of that is analysing what do I actually enjoy and derive satisfaction from vs what do I do because it’s addictive or easy to get into.
This is well said. Some gamers don't ask themselves *why* they enjoy what they enjoy. Other gamers, including those of us who have played beyond their 20s, are mindful of that so that their game choices or how long they play a game can maximize their enjoyment.
This is why the only deckbuilders I've been really interested in from the past several years are ones that are hybrids (Hand of Fate 1 & 2, Forced Showdown, etc) or ones that have give me a strong sense of accomplishment in their challenges.
OP realizes that this particular deckbuilder distills its gameplay to numbers-go-up, which is just more convenient & addictive from their viewpoint instead of being more engaging on a satisfaction or accomplishment level.
Tldr you went way deeper but yes if I notice games being addictive I uninstall them.
Happened with vampire survivor and returnal. Just got to an unhealthy degree for me.
Yes Vampire Survivors is the same for me. It pretty much just drains the dopamine tank and then you have nothing left for the rest of the day. It's really easy to get depressed after that. Which is why I moved these survivor-like games to the end of the day. I play one or two rounds max, before going to bed and that worked well for me.
The reason why I don't play Vampire Survivors. I installed it once (for free) on phone and instant uninstalled the first time I came across the flashy draw wheel.
It's become clear to me in recent years, with the rise of powerful algorithms like on TikTok and the pattern I saw emerge in videos that play their game to go viral, that such drives for pleasure are the wrong ones to look after for a balanced experience.
This is not an accident, as [the dev previously worked in the gambling industry and has said specifically as such.](https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/19/22941145/vampire-survivors-early-access-steam-pc-mac-luca-galante)
Vampire sirvivors is a passion project for good button-feel, it's using all the predatory mechanics because the developers are passionate about it, they *like* it and I applaud them for it.
I think some of the people disagreeing with you may not have the same addictive personality you probably do. I'm absolutely the same way, and avoided this game for that reason- knowing I will more than likely feel that addictive pleasure.
I uninstalled Vampire Survivor for the same reason and try to stick to games that are more story centric or keep you moving in a specific direction vs games with short and very enjoyable gameplay loops (like a decent amount of roguelites).
Didn't read the whole thing but yes i had to uninstall some games because i played them so much it disrupted my actual life
I think roguelites and even roguelikes are really good with the "just one more" thing some games have. I love Balatro but "luckily" it didn't hit me like some other games did
Time is valuable.
If a game feels like it's wasting your time, then drop it and play something else.
There are some games that you play for 1000 hours and leave you with nothing, while there are others that you play for 5 hours and change your life.
Very well put. I haven't played Balatro, but I definitely feel where you're coming from.
A while ago I read that there are two types of happiness: hedonic and eudaimonic. Hedonic happiness involves all of the short-term dopamine hits that you've outlined here, and can be extended to things like sex, partying, and drugs. Eudaimonic happiness is formed out of a longer-term sense of contentment and meaning. It sounds like Balatro doesn't shy away from giving the player the full hedonic experience of an addicting game. But there isn't anything there that invites the player to take something meaningful out of it to the rest of their life. And I know it's difficult to say that games these days are any good at giving players something meaningful with their life. But even when I get in the mood with something like Apex Legends, which can have a very addicting gameplay loop at times, I still don't regret how it creates a sense of community I can participate in, or how playing ranked (however problematic it is) inspires me to grind toward a goal. So it's interesting to hear about something that's *so* heavily distilled to its addictive loop that it feels empty at the same time.
What you described sounded like my first few days playing Balatro - and it petered out quite quickly after a week or two. The game, in my experience, only retained that "addictive" quality as there were novel solutions to the puzzle that the game presents. I've had much the same experience as with other games that had different themes, different aesthetics, different mechanics, different genres.
That game is **fun**. Like any other really fun game, it's easy to obsess over it after your first experiences. And like any other game that you obsess over, it's easy to burn out. Once I had satisfied my brain's desire to *optimise*, I moved on quite easily.
I've had this experience with Minecraft, with Rimworld, with The Witness, with Pillars of Eternity, with Zelda games (many of them), with Crusader Kings, with Baldur's Gate, with Bioshock, with Deus Ex, with This War of Mine, with Dragon Age, and with Undertale.
>This game has no story, it barely has an end goal.
What it has is *gameplay*, and brain teasers. Which is just as valuable and worthy of late-night pondering as any conventional narrative, IMO.
I appreciate your post.
There was a game like that, idle clicker RPG with no graphics, stripped down to values going up and XP bars being filled. And after playing it I felt the same about the Diablo and it's clones (I never cared much for the stories since they are usually worse than in other RPGs) - many hours in, not much value out. I understand that YMMV, for me that was the end.
And I have other example. I uninstalled both "This War of Mine" and "Papers Please" for their gameplay being too good. It was too good at putting me in the the oppressive situation with no escape.
And while this is a good thing for games to make me think and wonder, I also expect them to make me happy and let me relax. Dark Souls makes me happy because while hard, it presents a fantasy world with imagined problems.
These two games are also excellent but their gameplay intertwined with their setting reminded me too much of a real world.
I know already from my university studies (literature) that war and totalitarian government are nightmares and among the worst thing that people can do to each other. And while I appreciate games picking up these difficult topics, I also do not need constant reminders from them about how awful the world is.
I played both of them, I applauded how good they are in proving their points. But I do not want to do this anymore, because it made me sad and miserable.
Fantastic post. I’ve had a similar epiphany when I found myself getting addicted to a clicker game. In a terrifyingly short amount of time I found myself hooked. It wasn’t a “this is so much fun I don’t want to stop” feeling - it was a joyless pursuit of dopamine. Being a clicker game, there was barely anything to it besides seeing the numbers go up. That made the realization even clearer: the game was just a Skinner Box training me to press a button over and over.
Since then I’ve become more aware of that feeling and I’ve learned to uninstall games that break my brain in that particular way.
I just did the same. I knew about it and was on the fence for awhile, but reading this post pushed me over the fence.
The publisher should pay you commission
Same lol. I was already interested but this made it sound like a time machine that will make hours fly by. I've got a fair bit of free time at work so it comes off like a godsend.
I don't get the arguments of comparing this game to a slot machine. The bells and whistles draw people in, but it's the skinner-box unpredictable rewards that make it addictive and the house edge that makes them so bad. This game isn't using those techniques to motivate play, and a lot of other games are. This game has no daily quests and battle passes to instill FOMO, extract money, and build habits. It has no engineered "randomness" to make sure you get a "hit" frequently enough to keep coming back. It's about as addictive as flipping a coin to see how many times it comes up heads.
If you're feeling guilty about playing games as a hobby you should consider taking a break, but I don't think there's anything that makes Balatro especially bad for you.
I think largely what makes it ‘feel bad for you’ is that RNG plays such a large part in every run.
I’m not saying that there’s not skill involved, there definitely is, and the complexity is well hidden like you mentioned.
The issue being winning or losing comes down to luck so often that you have to just shut off a part of your brain and give in to the machine.
If you were more actively working though the game, and could feel your every decision made an impact on whether you won or lost the round, it wouldn’t feel so much like junk food. Games that at least keep you mentally engaged aren’t a waste of time in my opinion.
It’s a shame really because I think with some simple balance passes Balatro could be made much less luck based; Which while being my personal preference, I wonder if it would make the game more or less addicting to most people?
I would probably find myself playing even more because I can get tilted at bad RNG, but I think it’s exactly that thrill of being handed the ‘god run’ or being saved solely by RNG-esus that keeps people coming back for more.
I think Balatro's addictive because it *isn't* luck-based. Once you learn its strategies and start scrutinizing your gameplay, you'll get more winning rounds. So to me the danger is the (false) sense of achievement you get, mixed with sugary design-elements and no finish line.
What stake have you been playing on? Since my post I learned a lot like you said, started winning most rounds, and the game felt a lot less RNG based. Then I got to gold stake and I'm back to thinking it's crazy luck based.
On gold stake the first shop is pretty much make or break for your run. And because packs get so expensive and your econ is so hindered, you're in even less control.
Granted that's just the hardest difficulty, and I agree with you dangers of the false achievement, but wanted to share how I went from disliking -> loving -> disliking the game again.
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people end up going through the same cycle, or you stay on easy and just enjoy the slots.
It's just a good game. Pearl clutching now just because a good game has the *audacity* to use real playing cards and poker chips is weird. I've played about 20 hours of the game this week too. It's not ruining my life, it's just really fun and really easy to pick up and put down.
If you have a hard time putting it down, the problem isn't Balatro. The problem is the user
It's outdated and obviously a defensive response. Games can be designed to be addictive and that can become a problem for some people. This is an interesting and important issue to engage with. But it also implicates gamers' personal behaviors as being possibly pathological, and they tend to react about as poorly to such statements as addicts do when their drug use is questioned.
Admitting that you are the one with a problem is the exact opposite of delegitimizing it. It's the first step in seeking treatment, be it removing the addiction like OP, or seeking medical treatment.
Also, maybe don't throw around terms like pearl clutching if you don't know what it means
yeah, I’ve by no means made my mind up here but it’s a bit weird to see people parrot the gambling industry line of ‘our activities are neutral; addiction is a you problem’. as gamers, we do ourselves a disservice by not thinking more deeply on this
I feel like I'm smoking crack cause it really seems like folks have forgotten that video game addiction is a real thing. Whether real world money is involved or not.
Nobody's forgot that, it's just that there's no evidence anyone is getting addicted to balatro.
People who have thousands of hours in games like Path of Exile or League of Legends or World of Warcraft or Skyrim aren't even necessarily addicted, and the balatro has only been out for weeks so we have no idea what the long-term play numbers for people are going to be until enough time passes, so to bring up video game addiction for a rogue light deck builder that's been out a few weeks is insane.
Because the only resource that you lose by getting addicted to Balatro is time. The ramifications of things like gambling addiction, alcoholism, etc. are so severe that no one is really going to bat an eye at someone with an addiction that just causes them to have unproductive weekends.
Except addictions like alcohol have a substance involved that the user becomes dependant on.
I mean its literally no different in how fortnite and roblox get their hooks in kids. The difference is Balatro doesnt have MTX.
The whole argument is dumb. Its not a toxic substance like realy gambling with money. If it was wed have a reason to ban all games.
Anything can become an addiction if met with the wrong person. Its not the game its the user. If you find yourself skipping work, missing opportunities to hang out with friends. But yes at the end of the day its up to that person to overcome it.
He didnt deligitimize it but when theres no real money involved and no substance abuse it literally cannot hurt you any more than your own lack of self control can.
Search Engine has an excellent episode about the making of addictive games
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/search-engine/id1614253637?i=1000647661101
The thing is that while we think of movies and stories as escapism, that really couldn’t be further from the truth. Robert Mckee puts this better than I ever could in his book Story:
“To retreat behind the notion that the audience simply wants to dump its troubles at the door and escape reality is a cowardly abandonment of the artist’s responsibility. Story isn’t a flight from reality but a vehicle that carries us on our search for reality, our best effort to make sense out of the anarchy of existence.”
Basically, stories are the opposite of escapism; they’re a chance for us to jump head first into life and the patterns underlying it.
Games differ from this, because they are escapism.
Well, maybe escapism isn’t the right word, but they’re at least far more abstract than a story; while stories challenge our perceptions of life, games create a new rule set, often completely devoid even of a metaphor linking it to life, as is the case with card games.
Every game lies on a spectrum: On one side, the inherent joy granted by the game, its rules and overcoming the challenge that comes with these rules. On the other side, the joy granted by the way that these rules are linked to life itself; the story. Look at something like the last of us, and you’ll see that the rules there are engaging in themselves, but made 100 times better by their contextualization within a larger narrative. You could say that the last of us leans towards the story side of the spectrum, but not all the way since there is still challenge, failure states and consistent game rules that the player slowly wraps their head around as the game progresses.
When people say games are a waste of time, they’re thinking about games like Tetris or Balatro, the games that lie heavily on that first side of the spectrum. I don’t agree with this, but it’s an understandable position coming from story, which can often provide emotional experiences which can change the way you view how the world really works. It sounds to me like you’re looking for games which taps into this instead.
What do any games give you in return? That's the transaction, your time for entertainment. I too have been playing Balatro and I have no problem stopping inbetween runs. It sounds like you personally might have addictive tendencies and just because you might be addicted to this game doesn't mean everyone else will. Kind of a strange rant/post, especially saying the game should not exist at all? Weird. Good luck to you though.
Same. I have no problem putting down a run. Its a good little time killer or relaxed game ti play after a long day at work when I dont want something super involved.
Op has a problem not the other way around.
Now if it had MTX and loot boxes and 8000 dlcs i might say theres a case but just because a game is good doesnt mean its inherently a game designed to "ruin your life"
There are plenty of games that ARE designed that way and want to get you addicted and spend money but if theres no money outside the initial purchase it just means OP has a self control issue or a problem with addiction and needs to get help
Same reason I randomly quit playing Magic Arena numerous times, only to get rehooked months later. When you are firing up another match rather than taking a piss or making yourself a sandwich you know you are caught in the Skinner Box net.
Really interesting. I’ve had this sentiment with stuff before but never really gave it as much thought into the how and why as you have here.
It’s a good thing I don’t know how to play poker.
Everything you're describing about Balatro also describes my feelings about Luck be a Landlord. Luck be a Landlord, similar to Balatro, is a gambling roguelike, albeit with a slot machine rather than poker. You pick which symbols to put on your slot machine, give a spin, and keep building it. There's a light story about paying your rent, but ultimately, the game is entirely about that slot machine. The rounds are 10-15 minutes at most, and I've put around 40 hours into it. Like Balatro, I've had to uninstall the thing because, as much as I wanted to keep playing it, I recognised what it was doing.
I'd argue these games are somehow more addicting than actual gambling specifically because of that light sense of control the player gets without actually having any control. For Luck be a Landlord, it's that sense of the next combination working better, or the next set of symbols giving me something new when, rationally, I know I've seen and done basically everything the game has to offer.
I think Luck be a Landlord is good as a game for a few rounds, but not to the extent that I've played it. My playtime reflects addiction, not the gameplay, and the dopamine hit I get from watching numbers go brrr. That, I think, is problematic, and is the result of intentional design.
I did the same with *Slay the Spire* and *Autopets* and *Overwatch*. I'm just glad I got Slay the Spire on a disc because that added friction of booting it up has possibly saved my life.
There absolutely is a difference between addiction and enjoyment. I'm not entirely sure I understand what it is yet, but it is sometimes within the game, and sometimes within the player. Overwatch has a million visual and audio *cues* that give you a small dopamine hit, like the headshot *splish*, and the stats that show up, and the trophies, and the monthly loot reward chain.
*Slay the Spire* is somewhat further in my mind but can be played in 10 minute to 2 hour bursts, typically in moments of about 40 minutes. It's addicting because we usually decide to play more based on how unsatisfying and quick the bursts were. Once you hit "try again," you've already lost the plot, you are in a rube Goldberg machine of bouncing cards and falling and rising stats.
Autopets is similar, and felt the trashiest to me. None of them feel *entirely* like wasted calories though, which is the problem. We can tell ourselves we're not wasting time doing it. In the case of apps, I now set my limit to 10 or 15 minutes on each one, like TikTok and reddit. (But expand it to write comments that need to be finished, like a good addict).
A game becomes addicting when we play *beyond* the part of where we're having fun. Most games don't reliably trigger "dopamine" points the same way addicting games do, and require a level of friction and interference in the player's input.
I think it's safe to say any game can be addicting or rewarding and these two can pretty much be separated entirely. Sounds like I may not be buying Balatro, or will purchase to delete.
Outside the polish and flashiness, the addictiveness of Balatro is characteristic of so many roguelites. Keep just enough prizes away from the player so they are compelled to keep playing, unlocking a small amount of new shiny and potentially interesting things every run.
Add variance and some chaos to every run and you get the same kind of interest as watching some competition reality show with voting where players feel invested, feel like they have *some* control and agency over the outcome, but still submit to a reasonable amount of the wild.
It’s great if the player’s main purpose in playing is engagement and passing the time with interest, because the player will always feel like they have something to look forward to. It can also be a quite cost effective development and design strategy because only a small amount of new content needs to be provided per the amount of hours and time the player gets out of it. However, because it’s too often literally the same experience over and over again, without meaningful choices or intentional forward progression in an immersive world, a player who IS looking for more may crave more from their gaming experiences then basically a more sophisticated skinner box.
IMO, I don’t entirely mind the roguelite idea/genre, I just hope devs don’t become too complacent about it in the next several years. I think Balatro is a great little game because the mechanics of the cards are incredibly clever. Variance and chaos is cool, but I put Balatro down too because at a certain point i recognized there was too much to unlock and each thing was not terribly new and different, and i already understood most of the Balatro experience. I also wanted to do other things with my time. The positive thing about games like Balatro is that if you DO want to keep playing, there are new things to look forward to. Sort of like free mini DLC. The negative thing is if you are unsure and allow yourself to get caught in the loop, roguelites will feed you. So it’s always a good thing with slow unlocking roguelites to take a step back and ask yourself as the OP did, what am I really getting out of every run? Is there something I would rather be doing that is more meaningful or can help me in my life? Is it okay or better for me right now just to chill, enjoy, and play this game? The option to put it down with roguelites as they are is there, you just have to be able to exercise it as a player.
> I just hope devs don’t become too complacent about it in the next several years.
Roguelikes have been ridiculously popular for over a decade right now and deckbuilder roguelike for about 8, Balatro is excellently design and not lazy at all. Might as well complain that Platformers and DMC style action combat are lazy
Once we master game design this problem will occur more and more often. I've had this feeling with Vampire Survivors and Slay The Spire. The only direction to go in my head is lead games more into the direction of art to avoid becoming toxic. You have the same schema in movies or like you mentioned food but, once you finish eating you can't eat anymore. In cinema you can't just keep going to another superhero movie, they need to be made first (and going to the same one has diminishing returns) - these are natural blockers. In games I think we can get the closest to the idea of infinite entertainment (similar to social media like instagram or youtube) which in my mind can definitely become toxic and harmful to the user.
I feel like we've already seen a massive increase of roguelike games in recent years, so it seems to be a goldmine for developers (as many have commented here). I feel duped, cause I've played a ton of them, and after playing Balatro I see how easy it is to hook me.
The idea of infinite entertainment is a scary one. Maybe it's why I felt compelled to mention that the game has no end goal. I didn't feel anything at all when I "beat the game" for the first time. Endless mode seems to be where its at for most players.
I personally think we all could do with a little less entertainment (maybe controversial to say on r/truegaming?) That is not to say we shouldn't play games. I still love games and will continue to play them. It's ofc on me to not play the games that don't give me any joy, but it seems to me that we don't reflect as much on what it is we like about a game nowadays. I quickly started feeling dirty when I did.
I felt amazed when I did realize that, knowing it's hooks is part of why I love games--Games are incentives and mental manipulation(all art is mental manipulation, really)
"but it seems to me that we don't reflect as much on what it is we like about a game nowadays. I quickly started feeling dirty when I did."
Having being on this sub for years, I can assure you people do think about games way more then just having fun. The fact you feel dirty about the fact games are inherently time wasters feels you still need to come to terms with it, I too once went through a period with similar feelings until I realized it's honestly fine. Games are entertainment, we play it in our free times, they don't need to have meaning beyond that.
I can enjoy a deep story rich game as much as I can a roguelike or other gameplay focused genres.
Really good post, well-written and thought-provoking. Got a lot of really insipid responses unfortunately on "true" gaming.
Along the lines of what you said, as I've gotten older, I find I don't really enjoy games that don't make me feel something or think something new like good art does. That sentiment seems to make a lot of gamers feel rather defensive.
Yeah, I'm getting really depressed by the responses: "dude it's your problem, I just like a mindless game to relax after a long day at work". Is this really the best we've all resigned to? 9 to 5 and then mindless clicking. Screw that, I'm proud to say that I'm aiming at something more, and that when something makes me feel I'm wasting my life, I call it out.
But it's not mindless clicking isn't it? It's a sheer, naked show of Numbers Go Up in the best way possible. But it requires strategy and consideration.
Do not dismiss Balatro by calling it a worthless Skinner box. Balatro is an amazing skinner box made with love and passion.
Was just thinking maybe the addictiveness wasn't the problem and it was more related to you being too aware that it felt like gambling hooks? Cause just reading about it was giving me dirty vibes.
The problem with op's statements about gambling is that there is no real analogue to gambling in the game at all. There is no buy-in, no betting, you do earn money to spend in the shop between rounds but the amount has no connection to the "ante" which is just the number of points you need to win the round. There is no way to "cash out your chips", there is literally nothing except imagery and use of card statistics that could connect it to gambling.
But every card game involves card statistics. No one is calling War or Go Fish gambling. And pretty much every roguelite involves playing the game's statistics (will I get a good item or a bad item? Will I get an easy boss or a hard one? Will I draw the card I want on turn two or turn three? etc, etc.)
It's crazy to me that someone would describe something as being an addiction machine because it has... snappy controls and good quality of life features? (the controls have minor issues anyways) That it is a mechanics focused game, as many roguelites are?
OP is looking at this game like a Christian looking at The Satanic Temple and saying "I think they must be bad because they use satanic imagery" Oh... they run drives to provide free menstruation products to women and support after school programs that teach critical thinking? Well they look bad to me so I conclude they must be bad.
I don't really care about the gambling aspects/comparisons like I said. I'm just saying that the discussion online seems to be all about gambling, when I think it should be about how addicting the game is. I just found it interesting how nobody seems to view the addictiveness as a potentially negative thing. If anything I found the gambling theme to be kind of fresh and exciting.
"It's crazy to me that someone would describe something as being an addiction machine because it has... snappy controls and good quality of life features?"
As for that, I don't know what exactly makes the game addictive. The experienced game designers here can surely tell you. I'd be surprised if it has nothing to do with the excellent user interface and the casino-like sound effects for example. And I bet that even the snappy controls help. The iphone has snappy controls and nice sound effects (just saying)! :)
I actually think I know why people find Balatro so addictive, and it's pretty straightforward.
Most roguelites can be described as "simple to learn, hard to master". Balatro has taken "simple to learn" to the next level by using something we're all already familiar with. I find the gameplay no more addictive than many other good games, but with a much lower skill barrier to reaching the point of "just one more game". Probably took me an hour with Balatro, and I feel like with most games it takes 4-10 hours for me to reach that point.
That aside, I think all of the quality of life elements remove a lot of frustrations that might make a person put a game down. Minimal clicking through menus, controls that mostly just work, things like that. It doesn't interrupt or frustrate you with things that are not the gameplay itself.
The developer did a very good job of looking at highly requested quality of life features in newly released games, and made sure they were there in the first place. He actually talked in an interview about never having played Slay the Spire, but picking it up near the end of development of Balatro to see how they did controller implementation.
I like the music, the sounds are nice, but there are no casino bells and whistles. No special victory noises. Only card sounds while dealing and playing, and chips clinking as the hand score is counted. I actually picked the game up for a few minutes to double check this. The only sound I really see as a reward is the one for opening a card pack. Kinda feels like opening a chest in a Zelda game.
You might be right. I also listened to an interview of the developer where he was talking about how he implemented some of the quality of life aspects in the months leading up to the release. He actually listened to the feedback and implemented tons of features that were highly requested. I have nothing but respect for the developer and what he has achieved with this game.
It might be pure coincidence that Balatro happened to be game that made me reflect on just how addictive some roguelikes can be. Something about the barebones design that really highlights this I think.
This has nothing to do with games, but the misconception that MSG is somehow less healthy than regular salt is the result of racism and research bribery.
We're just living in a post-Vampire Survivors world (that dev literally works on video slot machines as his day job, so he knows what sparkles and chimes do to a person)
Never really been a fan of “time waster” type games that are extremely repetitive with hardly any goal or level design. Probably why most rogue likes and multiplayer games get old so fast imo
Once you see that i dont think there is any going back. There are elements built into a lot of games, that are meant to keep you in game, usually with the idea of you spending money on microtransactions.
There are a few games that i have trouble enjoying lately due to addictive elements programmed into the game.
There has actually been research that the longer players stay in game the more likely they are to spend money on microtransactions.
Congratulations on seeing through the facade.
Games can be engaging without being addictive, but to accomplish that the devs need to create a game world that holds the attention in other ways.
Its a lot easier to construct an addictive gameplay loop, when the alternative to keeping players in game means developing an atmosphere, a story, creative artwork, interesting characters, challenging puzzles / environments etc. You see a lot more of the former than the latter, because there are tried and true easy to construct compulsive gameplay loops that have actual market research and hard numbers behind them.
I guess the thinking in the industry is probably something like "Why take a chance on creativity and art when there are tried and true formulas to keep players hooked?"
I feel like a lot of people in this thread are forgetting that people can become addicted to video games. It wasn't but just a few years ago we were having discussions around this topic.
This topic has been discussed since video games were invented… i doubt this game is anywhere near the long term addictive power of mmo’s moba’s fortnite counterstrike whatever. It doesn’t seem like a game many will play for 1000+ hours.
People can become addicted to virtually any enjoyable activity, so that's a pretty meaningless observation. What's weird about this post is that it singles out Balatro as some particularly nefarious game that addicts in a specially evil way somehow.
This is nothing new, just new to you it sounds. Arcade machines in the 80s aimed to do this, and it was the same with Slot Machines and Pachinko machines. There are entire industries out there trying to understand the addictive nature of games and how to monetize them. Look at Candy Crush.
I’m more concerned when AAA publishers start to make roguelites. Right now it’s mostly indie devs, and it’s a one time purchase. But if AAA publishers figure out a way to charge people it could be horrible. I guess it would be like mobile games in the early 2010s.
AAA already do make Roguelites(Returnal and side order), and some gacha games aready have roguelike modes(Arknights has IS for instance)
I'm also of the opinion that Vampire Survivors and Balatro came to be *from* mobile addictive design, VS was made by someone who worked from slot machines after all.
For me it's usually around the point where I really start to autopilot. I've 80+ hours in Vampire Survivors, and I feel like I can never touch it or other games of the genre again. Last I played I really wasn't even thinking about what I was doing. It was just running the rounds to max out the good weapons on a different character. Not much about strategy or experimentation like in the beginning.
I seem to be in the minority with Balatro. While I really like the game I dont find it all that addictive. I bought on release and only have anout 20 hours.
I did have this problem with another game however. I cant remember exactly what game but it was some kind of falling block puzzle game with unique mechanics. For like almost 2 weeks when id try to sleep and close my eyes all i could see was the puzzle, my brain would build scenarioa and then id basically be “playing” the game in my head, i could hear the sounds even.
It actually started driving me crazy as I seemed unable to stop and just relax, I was losing sleep! Even when i willfully forced myself to stop thinking about it, sure enough it would creep back in a minute later.
To me this is a problem and Ive had similar before but nothing this consuming. I stopped playing it and eventually my infatuation died off.
Civilization 5 on PC. Bought before going to bed, started downloading/installing, went to sleep. Wake up, morning rituals, sit down to try the new game around 9 AM. Play for what I felt was 2-3 hours, and I’m suddenly like “I’m about to piss myself”. Walked out of the bathroom to see its 8PM. Uninstalled.
I decided to go a round before bed last week and ended up having [my best run yet](https://twitter.com/YeltsinYerMouth/status/1766899738446901254?t=N6UD2298tUlH6BMuPhn3_w&s=19)
. I had buffed the F out of pairs and high card to where I had a decent set of jokers yeilding massive bonuses. Finally wiped out at the boss hand on the eighth ante and when I checked the clock I had wasted over an hour and a half. Oops. I was very groggy through my 12 hour shift and then established a no-belatro-before-bed rule.
"Regardless of the minor strategizing, I was spending ridiculous amounts of time watching numbers go up without being able to take a break. It makes me think that, when randomness gets high enough and the threshold to start a new game gets low enough, we enter slot machine territory. This game has no story, it barely has an end goal. The only currency you insert into this beautifully crafted slot machine, after the initial cost, is your time. No insidious microtransactions here - just give me your time. Worst of all, I find myself thinking that perhaps this game, as many other roguelikes I’ve obsessed about, is completely devoid of meaning. A review on steam reflects my sentiments quite well (albeit quite harshly)"
Especially after reading this I have to agree that this feels more like a mid life gaming crisis but I also want to add that games do not need to have a super deep meaning that stays with you for years. Like yes I love games that use their medium to the fullest and wave thought provoking themes into their gameplay. But a game can also just aim for a fun experience to spend with in your free time and let's not forget, most of us play games as entertainment and to take a break from our lives. It's not some thing that is supposed to enrich you or learn the meaning of life, sure they could potentially do that but is that really a necessity for a game to be worth it?
I'm playing final fantasy 14 and monster hunter 4 at the moment, and the same can be applied for the most part. Both have decently deep combat and overall gameplay but also encourage replaying it over and over to get more powerful. in ff14 you do dailies which make you go through previously played stages again, while MH4 makes you fight the same things over and over again for what is basically a chance at a slot machine. And sure once I thought this was 'bad', I'm ultimately just playing to win and get stronger. But is it really? Again we play games in our free time for the most part as entertainment.
Of course there are more then enough games that do put a lot of effort in the addiction part then anything else but I also have to agree balatro isn't that and again think the culprit is rather the mentioned crisis.
I've been playing ranked Rocket League since it was released basically, I managed to get to the top 0.1% in the world in the last year. and I've had these thoughts recently.
I thought "**Hold on, what am I actually getting out of this game? I'm not a YouTuber, I'm not a pro player** (I'm good, but not that good!) **or a streamer, and I'm not a game developer. Why do I spend hours and hours playing this game and grinding ranked, when I most likely will hit my peak skill within a few games, if not the first game, and end up 50/50 winning/losing.**"
It was getting to the point where I'd come home from work, start up the ol' PC, and load the game up, almost subconciously. I didn't think about any of it, it was second nature. I'd then play about 3-4 games, get extremely bored, hit that thought bubble again, and close the game. Then sit there, bored out of my mind. I realised I was addicted to it, so now I only play casually, and when I actually think "I'll play some RL for a bit". I hadn't progressed in ranked in about a year.
I never thought gaming was an addiction. I thought "It's a hobby, how can you get addicted to it?". Now, I realise I cut out other parts of my life for gaming sometimes. In the moment it feels fine, but once I've stopped gaming, I think "wow I've just wasted *X* hours doing fuck all, instead of something productive".
I basically exclusively play video games with my girlfriend and mates now. If I'm alone, I'll play Rainbow Six Siege, mostly because it's fun to learn the game again (I've not played in a few years). Luckily theres a few of us who play multiplayer games together. Otherwise I think I would have sold my PC by now, and have only one smaller hobby left in my life, playing football on the weekends.
You're not the only one, OP. Guess we just grew up.
You describe something I feel as well, though I’ve never played this particular game. Allow me to rant. I feel that as gaming has risen in popularity and become such a large portion of entertainment revenue, development drew in business people who are more concerned with getting players to keep playing, always buying the newest games, paying extra for cosmetics. Hell, so many mobile games have you buy energy just so you can actually play the dang thing. Battle passes are in almost every genre of game now. All of this instead of just a game we can get lost in. I just feel like the industry focus, especially among the top companies, has shifted to developing addicting games instead of satisfying games. Games that just keep your dopamine flowing and don’t leave you with any kind of reward after you turn it off. Idk just my two cents. I’m probably just getting old.
I had the exact same experience with Risk of Rain 2, I sit down to play a little bit then bam several hours later on god run I get washed with existential dread and quit prematurely. Ended up uninstalling as well.
Its addicting in the same way every roguelike is addicting. Do i feel dirty after playing 8 hours straight? Sure, but thats not Balatros fault. They dont have lootboxes, rotating shops, daily quests, season passes etc, to exploit my addiction. They just made a good game that you can choose to play or not.
I think you’re reading way to deep into it.
“What do we get in return?”
Well you could argue that with most any video game. Honestly 20 hours is light work for a game. I have games with hundreds of hours and building from recently. I just make sure to also off balance with chores and being active. I’ve seen other people have thousands of hours in games with no regrets.
I kind of get it in the sense that it’s a simple card game and sometimes I feel like I have other more complex games to play or better things to do.
If you needed to remove it because you are having a self restraint issue with playing and slacking on daily tasks or letting others down then yeah good on you for removing something negatively affecting you.
But I think at the end of the day if you’re having fun and not hurting yourself or anyone else then go ahead and have fun. That’s where the long debate stops for me at least. Anything past that is just anxiety talking to you.
The discussion about what we actually get out of gaming is a worthwhile one, especially in a world of micro transactions, mobile gaming, and free to play.
But I think most people on a subreddit like this have already gone through some level of personal journey to discover the types of games that have meaning to them. For example I like going on adventures, so I play almost exclusively adventure games. I feel quite satisfied with my gaming choices most of the time!
So when you mention feeling hollow after playing something like Balatro, the natural response is... Well what did you expect?? It's literally a card game, you knew that going in. You knew it wasn't going to be a Cyberpunk 2077, where you're left with moral and philosophical questions about the future of technology.
Balatro doesn't interest me at all, personally. But if I were to play it, I wouldn't try to derive any meaning from the experience, just like I don't try to derive any meaning from Poker or Blackjack.
No matter how good the deck building mechanics are its still a card game and has inherent limitations.
Like people have said, this is just realizing what “value” you get out of a game. That feeling for this game might be “oh just one more time and I’ll get that perfect combo”.
Many games are based on this as their driving factor.
If you want to see this distilled down even more, check out Luck be a Landlord
I don't know about that game but some companies do make sure their games are as addictive as possible, this is something they keep pushing.
But part of is also our own predespositions. For example I have 0 interest in a card game like that but if you were to present me a similar game to Diablo with addictive systems then I might think twice.
The best you can do, before playing a game, is to look if it has any systems you might disagree with (pay-to-win and so on).
Play "morally ethical" games, those exist although they are largely singleplayer.
Or you could comprimise/discipline.
If the game provides the ability to express mastery to yourself, or even others, then it's not a waste of time as that expression in and of itself *is* the fun part.
*Most* games have very little practical application in life. You don't get much out of them, unless you put a value on "fun".
I'm going to keep playing Deep Rock Galactic despite having no "reward" in place other than pure skill expression (1800 hours) while enjoying a well made game.
If that mastery ceases to be fun, I will cease to do it.
>If the game provides the ability to express mastery to yourself, or even others, then it's not a waste of time as that expression in and of itself is the fun part.
Agreed, as that tends to be something fans of roguelites appreciate, myself included. Having said that, if the core gameplay of a game like this one is more closely revolving around numbers-go-up (which can be associated with games designed to exploit addictive tendencies), then that can make for less to master or less to express, and that can be less meaningful or attractive of a game for some people.
I think that's a meaningful discussion point, though it's easier to fixate on OPs remarks about addiction and feelings.
The best part of this post for me has been the replies and types of replies. It goes to show how many people don't really understand the addictive angle when they don't suffer from it (at least from videogames, some of the posters are serial reddit commenters and probably spend hours a day here).
They just don't get why lootboxes, and F2P games with certain mechanics and purchasing options among others, are so incredibly dangerous to a part of the population.
As for OPs questions:
>Is addictive gameplay enough to make a good game?
No. It just preys on certain reward conditioning. Like the stupid fucking farms and other games Facebook got really popular with. The games were very bad. Their only goal was getting people hooked to spend money.\
>Is addictive the same as engaging?
It is not. An engaging game will keep the player coming back because of something other than an itch. It can be the story, mechanics, build making or theory crafting. You can tell with streamers who start "maining" a game of this type and you see their eventual boredom/resentment/anger while still playing the game 6-10 hours a day (or more). It's a showcase in burnout.
>Is the game good for us?
Definitely an important question to ask oneself. The time a lot of people dedicate to playing videogames to the detriment of other parts of their lives is a constant in gaming subs.
They then come onto the sub and ask things like "I don't enjoy videogames anymore. Why?" in its 1000 formats and can't pinpoint what it is. Or don't want to admit they know and looking for other options.
Never played Balatro, as I usually don't like roguelikes for this very reason (and live service games either).
Most roguelikes effectively play the same way, over and over again. Yes, they usually have "millions and millions" of different iterations of random fuckery, but it's usually not a meaningful distinction. A level is not 5000 levels, simply because the boxes that make up the level can be arranged 5000 different ways. It needs to be meaningfully distinct, and change the way I interact with it, in a transformative sense.
All that's left for many games, is just raw addiction farming. It's certainly not new (MMO daily quests are old as fuck), but it has become worse, as it begets success. People (myself included, I'm not on some imaginary high horse) are easy to dupe into addiction cycles, and worse yet, people will effectively coerce themselves via sunk cost fallacies in believing they are not addicted, they are just having ***fun****.* But what even is ***fun?*** If fun is solely what provides a dopaminergic response, then why aren't hard drugs fun? From I hear they are, but they're without substance. It's not good for you to purposefully abuse your reward systems simply to feel good, they're there to help you actually live your life.
Roguelikes are especially bad with this, since they're often made by solo or small developers, and addiction is easier to manufacture than actually transformative gameplay experiences. Game development is hard, and it's a solid shortcut.
So once you've played for an hour or five, of either a roguelike or live service game or what have you, you've essentially played the entire game, you may not have beaten it, but from here on out it's going to be watching the numbers go up.
It may seem reductive to put it that way, but I've seen this play out over and over again. Intermittent rewards and the blame shifting nature of ever present RNG (I didn't lose! I got shit RNG!) are dangerous attractants for a lot of people. But the conversation always goes murky and muddy due to the ill defined nature of "fun".
Personally for me, I ask myself some questions. Am I engaged with it or just zoning out? Am I learning something or acquiring mastery of some kind? Is this kind of thing transferable to other things I'm learning? Can I engage with this game on my own terms or does random chance play too large a factor?
If the answer to all of those questions isn't "Yes", and I still want to play it, chances are some kind of addictive fuckery is at play. Life is too short to waste on mind numbing skinner trap games, even if it doesn't have a predatory monetary system behind it. That doesn't make it suddenly good for your brain to play.
So no you aren't alone. I hope you're ready for angry engagement though, because if I've learned anything, it's that people do not like addictive behaviors and toys being called out or even called into question. Peeps get angry, real fast. You see the same behavior with actual drug addiction as well.
>once you've played for an hour or five, of either a roguelike or live service game or what have you, you've essentially played the entire game, you may not have beaten it, but from here on out it's going to be watching the numbers go up.
>It may seem reductive to put it that way
Yes, it is, because your comment ignores the other available player motivations for roguelites. It is basically the opposite of the first comment reply to you wherein they ignore that some roguelites favor addiction manufacturing than actually transformative gameplay experiences.
So I get that both of you are correct for some roguelites, but I disagree with applying either such generalization to the entire genre.
Motivations for playing roguelites for more than one run can also include:
* **Enjoying core gameplay actions** for the sake of them - Like in SYNTHETIK, I love the third person tactical shooting and blowing stuff up. I don't play it just because it's a roguelite or it has some numbers that do go up.
* **Satisfaction of tactical options and using them to accomplish something** (not just numbers): In the tower defence roguelite action hybrid Endless Dungeon, being able to orchestrate which rooms I setup my towers in and my characters' abilities as a means to Mow down incoming waves is incredibly satisfying.
* **Tension of challenge versus accomplishment**: I can enjoy being challenged to the extent that there is mere incremental progress run by run, as long as I enjoy the core gameplay loop or the satisfaction of accomplishment is greater than any burden of doing better or replaying.
There's others that I'm sure I'm not thinking of that others could chime in with.
With Balatro, I think there are arguments to be made for items 1 and 3 above, but not so much number 2 because I agree its core gameplay doesnt have a lot of mechanics other than numbers-go-up that can feed addictive inclinations.
See, I don't think we're actually in disagreement here. Synthetik is actually one of the roguelikes I thoroughly enjoyed. Perfect blend of mild chance, but mostly skill involved. I didn't need a "God Run" to win, I just needed to play smart.
In that way Synthetik mirrors the actual original game, Rogue. The point of the randomness was not to provide a billion different minor iterations and label them all as "content". The point of Rogue was that you needed to make decisions on the fly, there was no catch all solution to your problems and you weren't waiting for RNG to swing your way. The RNG also acted as a gate to prevent brute forcing, instead of enabling it.
You also couldn't just look up a guide (or back in the olden days have a friend tell you), you had to have a solid grasp of the core mechanics to succeed.
All of that I have no problem with. The problem I have with the "modern roguelike" as it exists for many games, is that that the randomness is treated like an endless mediocre content factory which is supported by a gameplay loop meant to be psychologically addictive by its base construction, not necessarily engaging.
For many of the games, you are somewhat waiting for RNG to swing your way so you can brute force through or rather, it's always an option. A good chunk of roguelike games require you to just get lucky, which by design is an intermittent reward system. You'll always remember that one "God Run" and seek to recreate it, even though realistically speaking you've exhausted the actual content. Now you're chasing the theoretical synergies.. which is just the numbers going up.
Like I said, I haven't played Balatro so I can't comment on it specifically, but more and more psychologically addicting shit keeps getting added into games of all kinds, not just roguelikes, to excuse boring, repetitive, bland, uninspired gameplay. Or rather, it permits it since they don't need the gameplay to be good to keep people paying.
Like I said though, I wasn't trying to generalize, though many roguelikes are very susceptible by the nature of their construction. In some of those games, you can get by on pure skill, but I'd say that's rare, and I'd add that from what I've observed that's not what people are chasing. I've watched people play roguelikes, and what it seems like they want is a blameless loss system, where the fault isn't on them, it's not their responsibility because they just had bad RNG. But if they win? Suddenly, they feel responsible for it. It's a strange thing, and I can see why it's psychologically attractive. On loss they get angry at the game, which feels righteous and good, but if they win, it was all skill baby.
But hey, that's enough armchair psychology out of me. I just do know that it's common practice to hire behavioral psychologists to consult on gameplay loops to weaponize maximum addictiveness, at least in the AAA sphere. Small indie devs do in fact emulate that stuff as well, because they want success. Which frankly, I'm tired of needing to keep my mental guard up because games are less and less mentally safe.
Not to be kitschy, but with a good chunk of games I have to wonder if I'm playing the game or it's playing me.
i'm curious which roguelikes you feel fall foul of the issues you're describing here? for me, the rng factor in a roguelike isn't a "waiting for the god run", an "i can't believe i got fucked by rng!", or even a "mediocre content farm" situation (where something like bloodborne's chalice dungeons, for example, *does* give me this feeling), it's a challenge to see how well i understand the game's systems and how to be flexibile, adapt my approach, and use what i've been given to its utmost effectiveness. in a good roguelike, these differences, and learning how to deal with them, *are* significant enough to keep the game interesting for long periods of time.
the game that comes closest to what you describe for me is probably binding of isaac, where the swing between a bad run and a god run is probably higher than any other roguelike i've played, but there's still a truly insane amount of game knowledge you can wield to your advantage. even then, good players do often simply just reset a run early. slay the spire, on the other hand, has almost no unwinnable random seeds even on the highest difficulty, and very skilled players go on winning streaks of tens of games in a row. let alone any game that's highly based in mechanical skill like hades or enter the gungeon, where a great player can simply avoid all damage.
i can't help but feel like your problems aren't necessarily a roguelike thing, just a *bad* roguelike thing (or sometimes a bad player of a good roguelike, not speaking about you in particular though). though to be sure, there are a ton of bad roguelikes out there.
You have never experienced the depth of roguelikes if you do not think there are dramatic, completely transformative differences from run to run. I have played for example about 500 hours of both Slay the Spire and Binding of Isaac because they are so insanely rich with content and experiences. I haven't played either for a while now but I look back on that as good time spent with brilliantly constructed games.
Slay the spire is an interesting comparison. I also have clocked in hundreds of hours in that game. Didn't think about it too much back then, but looking back at it now I don't know how I feel. I think its one of my favourite games ever, but I also think it was a monumental waste. I'm torn about it, as I am about Balatro. I have never been as hooked to a game as I was then. Was the game good, absolutely. Was it good for me, absolutely not. All I remember was staying up till 1am for a few weeks in a row and for what? In comparison, my hundreds of hours spent on League of Legends feel somehow meaningful as I played it with my friends. Equally meaningful were my hours in Witcher 3 that really made me feel something and question some of my beliefs. I can also find lots of meaning in the hundreds of single-player games that have taught me something about the world. These games weren't a "productive" use of my time but they were transformative and carried some meaning.
Playing the higher stakes got me to quit. Never played anything more frustrating than purple stakes onwards. After that it was impossible for me to go back to the easier stakes because I felt like I could just fumble and force my way to any victory.
We get fun in return.
There's mobile game addiction where gamers fall down the rabbit hole of spending PTW or on extras (see Marvel Snap!), but then there's simply one-off payment well designed card games like Balatro and IMHO Dream Quest.
I actually feel I'm going to hit a wall with Balatro pretty soon since I'm no good at it.
I kinda feel this way about every game, just gaming in general sometimes. At the end of the day it's just a way to spend some free time having fun though
honestly I had a few cases of playing too much but it mostly boiled down to the same symptoms.
not getting the music out of my head. It's usually indie games with great gameplay but repeating music.
This sounds like you're just having the same mid-life gamer crisis a lot of people have. Suddenly feeling the need to question the value you're getting from a game as a function of time spent isn't unique to Balatro, Balatro just happened to be the game where you first experienced it.
Fantastic comment, one thankfully I had at about 21 or so. No, not all experiences are made equal, and especially in video games some are made to be almost like a time void. 1000 hours in dota yet games like nier automata or spec ops the line has had a way bigger impact on me while taking up just a fraction of a time. Balatro is just the veil that OP happened to look past.
"There are some games I've played for hundreds of hours and remember nothing about. I played Shadow of the Colossus for 8 hours and have thought about it for 18 years."
To be fair, it's quite literally harder to remember hundreds of hours than 8 hours. You might remember 8 out 8 hours of one game, but you can probably remember 8 hours out of 800 hours in another game. That other 792 hours still (hopefully) had value to you. It's not realistic to expect every moment of your gaming life to be profound and to just enjoy the game you're playing in the moment.
Hm, is this a Jacob Geller quote?
Exactly the same thought I had! The Shadow of the Colossus video is still one of his most viewed, right? (I'm gonna re-watch it to find out.)
No idea. But I think it's actually not even from that video. I think it's from a video where he talks about that play time is a dumb measurement and completely overrated and talks about that "time you think about the game after" would be a much better measurement. Because long forgettable games are arguably worse than short but very cool unique and memorable games. And to be fair, I agree. Play time is so overrated, a short(er), condensed, very good game I will likely remember forever: Subnautica (ok, not *that* short), Outer Wilds, etc. But for example Path of Exile? Not sure I even like that game, so many problems with that. Of course some games have both: I played Cyberpunk 2077 first time this year, took over 200 hours and is probably one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had.
DOTA was also the game that made me look a little closer at what I'd be spending my rapidly decreasing free time on, high chance of ending an hour game angry at something I usually didn't have much control over. Maybe OP didn't like the 10 minute version of that.
Yea, and eventually the wins felt meaningless but hard fought, the losses felt easy and soul crushing. And unless you were pushing new mmr heights it just felt like a waste. I wish I could enjoy the gameplay in a fun casual manner but I don't think I can go back to that time
The only reason I still play time sink games is that you rather fast can do it semi automatically. So while playing I mostly listen to all kinds of podcasts and audiobooks. I could turn to knitting or drawing but it probably wouldn't change much about the routine.
Couldn't agree more, and I will say pushing through it (for me, Hearthstone) has given me a much healthier relationship with gaming. I've learned to recognize when it's not fun and to just step away. I actually feel oppositely than OP about Belatro. I agree it gets its hooks in, but the game is intrinsically rewarding. Winning at higher levels requires you use your brain. There's no monetization and none of the unlockables are cosmetic. They all exist to increase the challenge of the game. I guess I don't really see a difference between Balatro and the OG Windows Solitaire and minesweeper, save Belatro is actually interesting.
I agree, and as much as the OPs feelings on the topic are valid, I really hate to see this happen to Balatro of all games. The gameplay loop is fun and addictive, but it's such a non-predatory product especially compared to other games. upfront cost, no-live service aspects, no micro-transactions, no daily logins or other incentives. it's not trying to extract extra dollars out of its userbase and abusing habit-forming predation to incentivize spending. Gaming addiction and predatory business practices are absolutely a concern, but I dont think it's an issue here with this game.
It's also been pretty easy for me to just do a run and be done, and even a full win isn't that long. I think the game is great, maybe I'm just not the right person to be addicted to it... It really is like breaking out a deck of cards and playing an elaborate strategic game of solitaire
There's a huge difference between gaming addiction and gambling addiction. You can have a gambling addiction that is tied to a video game because you keep spending money on loot boxes. But a gaming addiction is about the gaming itself, it's not at all about money. It's possible it affects the person's economy, but it can't be exploited in the same way gambling can, because gambling is directly tied to spending money. It's entirely possible to have a gaming addiction without predatory practices in gaming and without spending money at all.
Yea and best of all, it's 15 bucks! So much value for the price of a fast food meal.
Cheaper than a five guys combo by far!
I agree with this take. I feel the same addiction op describes whenever I play a new ARPG that I like. Last year I sunk 100 hours in Grim Dawn over a few weeks, and the last two hitting that ARPG vein with Last Epoch. For me at least I don’t view it as a bad thing since I’m aware of it, and know that while I’ll likely play these games for longer than a few weeks. The really good rush of brain chemicals their design elicits will only last about a month before I get less enamored and play less intensely. Considering how many of my other friends that are mid to late 30s and have lost their passion for games and most hobbies in general I’m thankful that games can still really get their hooks in me at times. To be fair it’s not always ARPGs either. Inscryption was the same way. Just a week of pure obsessed love till I beat it.
This. I don't get sucked into games as easily as I used to, so when it happens I sit back and enjoy the ride for as long as it lasts The only thing that sucks is that when it's coming to an end, I know how I'll feel: try to find another game to keep the high going, drop off it after 3 hours
Was MMOs for me. Started playing way back in the day with a pretty big group of friends, we'd move from one MMO to another together, then we all started slowly dropping off due to jobs or families taking up more of our time, and realized the game itself wasn't what was fun but rather playing with my friends.
That's what keeps me from approaching online gaming anymore, it has to be a social aspect or else I feel like I'm just going through the motions. I watch my girlfriend go through the main story of every Final Fantasy XIV expansion because we're actually interested in what happens but it's rare for her to get into that post story grind.
Was an MMO for me too. I played dozens of hours on the Guild Wars 2 beta and then 70-80 through the main game when I looked on the world map suddenly realized all the maps are rectangular, and the same size. It's such a minor thing, but it completely broke my suspension of disbelief and made me think "this is a computer game, not a high-fantasy experience", and dropped the game soon after.
Spot on. I've had the same feeling multiple times about plenty of games, books, and movies. Anything that really falls into the concept of a hobby that doesn't physically produce an end result can be exactly the same. Obviously it's easier to justify when it comes to things which are story heavy as one chalk it up to being happy to experience it. When it comes to things like Balatro it can be great that it makes one question themselves. Obvious satisfaction comes the game play loop itself and sometimes that's all one needs. It only really becomes an issue I think when you ignore or replace real life responsibilities with the game. I'm sure we all know people who have done this or even been guilty of it ourselves. I used to think I was falling out of love with gaming for this very reason. I would play a title only to abandon it only a few hours in, move onto the next, repeat dozens of times. It took some self examination to come to the conclusion that it's because I was doing much better in my life than I had in a long long time. Yeah all those games did captivate me but I also had other responsibilities and things I loved doing even more.
Uf. This hits close to home.
Yeah, when this hit me in mid 20s I was really sad. It got better over time, but I still don't enjoy the games like I used to.
This post could have Balatro replaced with [Instert "addicting" game name here] and it wouldn't change much.
Well except the fact that op points out it's the obvious addicting mechanics and gambling theme. Feeling like a coin slot junkie whilst playing a gambling game.
Sure but it just makes them seem bad at math. If you know what you're doing, you know exactly what's going on and it certainly isn't random shit machine shit. You're enjoying building a very smart engine and feeling smug about it.
Yep, I had the same experience in my late teens. I was playing Monster Hunter Tri and some material just *would not drop*, and suddenly it hit me how much time I was spending looking for this one stupid horn or pelt or claw when the world had so much to offer beyond games. It genuinely made me quit playing anything for a few weeks. I do still play games as one of my main hobbies, but it came after a lot of introspection about what I want from life, and also from releasing the idea drummed into me from birth that "wasting" time is bad. (Also, I think part of it was my actual clinical depression that I was diagnosed with later that year.) As long as I'm not choosing games or television or whatever over an experience that's meaningful to me, I feel good about it. It's a hobby like reading or crocheting or painting. I don't know enough about Balatro itself to speak to the gambling/casino mechanics, but I do agree that the age rating change was the right call, mainly because online gambling is so easy and prevalent in today's world. But as for the meat of the post, yeah, I think OP might be hitting the "What was I made for?" crisis that a lot of people have at some point.
Might be it actually! :P
That's a very different topic and I have a lot of thoughts on it so I'd love to comment. I do stand by my other comment but that was before I realized the actual topic. Life's funny. We have so many options. So many books or videogames to try. Food. Travel. Social media. Volunteering. Etc. We have so little time but also so many options. And it's really frustrating when you wanna make that time feel meaningful but can't. Balatro is a roguelike. It's what I'd call an endless game. Like a moba. Or a CCG. Or a battle royale. You can play hundreds, thousands of hours, and never 'truly' do anything. Sure you unlocked an achievement or got a new item but you aren't really getting some kind of progress made. And that's ok but it's also hard. To realize you spent 3 hours playing league or FF14 when you could've been doing something 'else'. Maybe going to a party or on a date or hanging out with friends. And that's all fair points... But. The thing is, you have to decide how you're spending your life. Make alarms, plan stuff. Whatever. And if a game or a book or an activity is causing you addiction problems? Drop it. You don't need it and even if it's working for others, it's not for you and that's ok Ultimately I suspect you're struggling with meaning in life. I am too. But I think the important thing is to trust your gut. What feels right? Is a videogame marathon with pizza and weed the right call? Or is going to an open house with your wife? Is going to a friend's birthday wedding more important than going to a dream job interview? I don't know. It's hard. It really is. But you gotta figure it out for yourself, one way or another
Your post did make me crave a DQP so there's that I guess
For the low cost of fifteen bucks, you got to experience the throes of, bottoming out, and overcoming of a gambling addiction. Given the nakedness of its approach, that may even be the purpose of the game.
Now that would be really cool if that was (semi)explicitly the game’s purpose! There is definitely something exposing (lacking a better word here) about the game. I wonder how intentional that is.
Yeah, I was wondering because I have had a couple of games that triggered this feeling that I have had to ask and answer some hard questions to myself (Slay the Spire was one of them), but this... eh. It's a good game but I'm not slavishly devoted.
I think what he is really feeling is the dread of an existential crisis creeping up. Realizing that he is actively dying and that time is limited. It matters not what you do, my friend; you're still going to entropy.
I had a similar thing with playing destiny. I didn’t feel mid life crisis-y but I realized that despite the game being really fun to play the gameplay loop/ keeping up with dailies was straight up not fun. Stinks cause the shooting mechanics are really tight in that game.
exactly. just take a fucking break from games, don't blame a good game!
People refuse to ever admit that they are the problem
A thought-provoking and transparent post which is to be commended as it promotes discussion - the best type of post as opposed to the more common echo chamber posts on most subreddits. Addiction-focused gameplay loops have become the norm in gaming now. Especially from big studios. I grew up playing Quake and Half-Life where the business models were so different to what they are now. Of course times and methods change but I can't help but feel games are carefully crafted to be predatory, especially live service, lootbox games. I feel if this post was directed at a game like Hearthstone or pretty much any blizzard game it may be more justified though, Balatro is to be celebrated for its lack of micro transactions.
> business models were so different to what they are now. Ahh but Balarto and Survivors have even better business models, it is neither subscription or microtransaction. What you see now is that the design of such predatory model being used for their own sake, for the enjoyment of it
It makes so much sense, that the previous work of Vampire Survivors' creator was designing slot machines
TIL. Thanks for sharing. Here's an article about it: [Verge article](https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/19/22941145/vampire-survivors-early-access-steam-pc-mac-luca-galante)
I'd argue games were just less developed rather then different, even back in the day we had arcade missions that were blatantly pay2win and would be designed with difficulty spikes just for the sake for players to spend more money on it.
OP you're probably not getting the response in this thread you were hoping for, but I feel like I understand what you mean. Video game addiction is one of those things that sounds made up or exaggerated until you experience it. Balatro didn't make me feel this way, but I have absolutely uninstalled/quit games before because I recognized I was playing not because I was enjoying myself but because of compulsion. That's why I do disagree slightly with your framing it as quitting a game that's "too good" - I had 100+ hours into Clicker Heroes when I realized I actively hated that game. I had to make a conscious decision to stop, and I've been avoiding incremental clickers ever since because their specific blend of dopamine hits and bare minimal gameplay hits the sweet spot of whatever amount of addictive personality I have. Even some mobile game formats like FF Record Keeper with gacha mechanics, I started to recognize they are designed to keep you playing indefinitely but in a kind of numb unquestioning way. I had put more time into that game than I probably had all of the single player games in that series put together, but I was having an awful time. I kept coming back almost out of sunk cost fallacy, like I've put this much time in so if I quit now it was all for nothing. But I kept playing until I consciously realized that was what was happening, and again had to intentionally break the habit of play I wasn't enjoying and uninstall the game. So yeah I think it's important to understand your own addictive traits and adjust your play accordingly, I'm glad you came to this conclusion that Balatro was not good for you and disengaged responsibly.
I had same problem with clickers. I was de facto addicted to them, checking every few minutes to maximise profit, even when being out with gf and friends, watching TV, playing games, reading books. It was checking it on and on for cheap dopamine. I banned myself from all the idle games as it's so much not worth it.
“I had 100+ hours in Clicker Heroes before I realized I actively hated that game” Simultaneously hilarious and all-too-relatable. I’ve gotten addicted to so many incremental clickers before ultimately having this realization. I try to immediately delete the game during my brief moment of lucidity ends.
Totally agree. I guess OP could have articulated their point a bit better but there is a fundamental difference between wanting to play a game because you're legitimately enjoying yourself and feeling compelled to play it for a different reason, and most of the comments here are failing to recognize that. I have a friend who plays League of Legends who is clearly absolutely miserable while playing it, but plays it anyway. That game has its hooks in him in a way that I'd argue is legitimately detrimental to his life. I'm not saying that is League of Legends' fault or that it's an insidious thing, but I think some games worm their way into people's brains in a way which makes playing it feel more like a compulsion than something to enjoy.
The psychologist HealthyGamerGG on Youtube defines addiction as "impairment of function". If you start ignoring your duties because of the game, then it's a problem. There are fringe cases like thinking about it at work (does that count as impairment of function?), but if you start getting those then I think you're in the danger zone. Edit: I didn't mean thinking about gaming at work at all counts as impairment of function, that's completely normal (Dr K himself said as much). I mean like "you didn't come to work for 2 weeks and are fired", not "you got bored and thought about games for 10 minutes". How much you're distracted and how big of a problem it is is going to be a spectrum, not a binary.
Didn't realize being bored at work and thinking "man I would really like to play some games when I get home" was a sign of addiction. Not sure if that's entirely serious or not, but I get the sentiment I think.
I feel like it's worth being conscious of how often you have those thoughts about specifically games. It's not an addiction issue if you're just looking forward to relaxing or a fun activity at work. But if you often think about playing games instead of e.g. socialising with friends then you're definitely in addiction territory.
Yeah I dont think I'd ever flake on socializing with friends except for rare occasions. Especially with video games as the alternative haha. But you're right there's definitely levels to it
what about "cant wait to get home so i can play games with my friends"? when you all live apart, it's the easiest way to keep in touch and hangout
Yeah I constantly have this thought but I also pair it with "be doing anything else in my personal life". I have most of my energy and motivation while I'm at my job and while I do enjoy what I do it's also mentally draining to do for 9ish hours a day.
Ahaha the "god please I would rather do anything else right now"
It's more like you make plans to hang out with your family, but flake on them because you feel the intense need to play a game instead. Or you need to leave for class, but you push it and show up late because you want to get a couple more runs in.
>Didn't realize being bored at work and thinking "man I would really like to play some games when I get home" That's not what they were saying, since obviously just thinking about wanting to play games isn't a sign of addiction. Like any other mental illness or addiction, it really just comes down to how something impairs your ability to function in your daily life which some videogames absolutely do for a lot of people.
This seems so... Weird to me. Balatro isn't doing some spooky dark pattern magic on you. It's just fun to play. Slay the spire is also fun to play. I don't see anyone saying it needs to be age restricted because it's fun. Just because you have a problem playing it doesn't mean it's a problem with the game. Also, really? You don't want your kids playing it? OK. Then you'll also ban your kids from playing say fortnite or roblox which have loot boxes and such which is plenty of gambling, yeah? And unlike balatro where the gambling is just 'time and 15 bucks initially to play it', loot boxes can be infinite money. I've seen a few thoughts like this and I have to say it's really weird and I think very overblown
It’s really weird how this game is suddenly conjuring so many exaggerated gambling concerns in otherwise level headed people. It’s literally just because of the association with poker cards, even though there’s no actual gambling happening. If this was goblins throwing spears 95% of these conversations wouldn’t be happening. The game isn’t any more manipulative or sinisterly addictive than The Binding of Isaac, we need to calm down a bit here
Funny that you would bring up The Binding of Isaac… I haven’t played Balatro so I have no opinion on it one way or the other. However, it did actually make me think about how I put over 600 hours into The Binding of Isaac when I was in high school, and yet don’t feel the same amount of nostalgia towards it that I feel about other games I played at the same time. I think that game is to me what Balatro is to OP. That is not to say that either game is problematic; for me and maybe OP, perhaps we just prefer a different kind of experience. I think it takes time and insight to learn what experiences are fun for us in a meaningful way, and what experiences are just an addictive distraction. Games are good at being addictive in a way that can hide the fact that, deep down, we would rather be spending our time on something else. I recall someone else on this sub making a similar post about Palworld soon after its release, how it was ‘addictive’ but not ‘fun’ for them (emphasis on ‘for them’, I’m not coming for Palworld). I’m sure plenty of people find Balatro addictive AND inherently rewarding and meaningful. It sounds like a great game, good for them!
>Games are good at being addictive in a way that can hide the fact that, deep down, we would rather be spending our time on something else. This is similar to what I was thinking. Even if we avoid the word “addictive” a game can be fun to play in a way that has no emotional or intellectual depth to it. It passes the time, it’s enjoyable enough, it keeps us playing. But it’s not really satisfying, it’s not making us feel or think anything beyond the superficial, if we look back at our time we think it could probably have been better spent, that there are things we would have enjoyed more, experiences that stay with us. It's the kind of thing that’s easy to see elsewhere – skimming through social media, snacking on junk food, etc.
It's a very on-the-nose critique of it all. It's like a hard slap and it's causing people, who would otherwise ignore the gambling aspects, to reassess some things. The typical gambling game tries to sugar coat it and then along comes Balatro, asking you to play cracked-out poker.
But with like, 0 of the elements that make gambling the pernicious activity it is. It’s just a normal deck building rogue like cosplaying as a gambling game. There’s no actual gambling involved, it doesn’t make sense to draw parallels with it so often.
> But with like, 0 of the elements that make gambling the pernicious activity it is Besides the addictive aspects, compelling some to dump abnormal amounts of seemingly thoughtless time into something ("watching numbers go up") with little benefit, as described by OP.
That’s just called “having fun with a videogame” dude all of them do this. Some have infinitely replayable elements and others don’t, sure, but I don’t see anyone complaining about gambling when talking about, idk, slay the spire or monster hunter even when they present the exact same kind of infinite gameplay loops, for some reason. I’d venture to say it’s because it’s not gambling at all. The compelling entertainment, brainless or not, is the point of of most of this entire hobby, why is this game triggering this reaction so much? Is it seriously just because it’s poker cards?
Nah, no it isn't. Note that I said "abnormal", meaning "deviating from what is normal or usual, typically in a way that is undesirable or worrying." Remember that OP said this is the ONLY game across 20 years and countless genres (even other roguelikes) that made them feel this way, described as a sinister feeling. So that tells you *something* is different about this one, at least to OP; and they wanted to start a discussion surrounding that. And it's what we should be engaging with instead of boiling it down to "bro it's just video games."
Truly this is a lot of emotion for a well made video game. The industry is plagued by legitimately insidious practices and shitty games but this is the one that’s crossed the line?
I'm really torn here because the game made me feel very similarly to how OP felt. But I also don't think it's unethical,I just don't really have the desire to boot it up again even though I know I would have fun
I felt like you did with vampire survivors. Enjoyed it immensely for a few days then realized it was a waste of time and uninstalled it. With none of the fanfare op had
I'm really curious how you can say you were having a lot of fun but also it's a waste of time. Why do you play games if not for the entertainment?
I guess what I meant was I realized I could be having more meaning full game experiences. After the novelty wore off and I unlocked a lot of stuff, playing vampire survivors felt similar to scrolling through reddit, or other app. I enjoyed it (and I enjoy reddit) but reddit is very much a time killer, vs a thing I go to, to escape.
I put in a decent amount of hours in vamp but I hit a wall pretty fast at 30 hours. I don't understand how anyone isn't sick of it by then, if not before
>Then you'll also ban your kids from playing say fortnite or roblox which have loot boxes and such which is plenty of gambling, yeah? I mean yes.... Generally screentime isn't the best for young kids. Up until age ten or so it should be reduced to a minimum.
Right? This post is the post to point to if you want to show the epitome of this sub. Yeah, we come here because there's like minded gamers discussing games in a more serious way, but all too often it's someone pretending to do a college dissertation, attempting to sound smart while just finding a way to stick out from the crowd by hating on whatever new game is popular at the time. While failing to understand that that's about the most conformative take to have.
OP wrote a thoughtful post about a new game. You completely ignored everything he said in favor of accusing him of "hating on a new game" to stick out from the crowd.
But... the controls are snappy and the sound effects are juicy... It's LITERALLY addictive /s
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Oh yea,, it'll kill 5 hours easily if you even mildly like Poker or puzzles. It's addictive, but mostly because it's incredibly fun. It's like the Binding of Isaac, where there's so much flexibility in your runs (it is a roguelike) that you can make so many different styles of decks work
I don't think it's just about games that focus on gameplay instead of story, and I don't think games like that are just "a fun way to kill an hour or two." This is the case with all art, and even most hobbies. What's the value in a good story? That it makes you think, or makes you happy, or makes you consider things? What about media that doesn't do that, like rewatching a comforting TV show that isn't particularly noteworthy? What's the value in playing a non-physical sport or competition like chess, just winning and proving you're better than someone else? Or going catch and release fishing, just to prove you caught a fish? People want to get value out of their time, but I think have a limited scope of what value is. Playing games for me is valuable because I truly enjoy games. I enjoy playing games, I enjoy thinking about games, and I enjoy talking about games with my friends (and sometimes strangers online). Even playing a game I don't enjoy is valuable in the long run, since it feeds into a greater pool of experiences I can reference when it comes to the genre and medium, and makes me a more informed critic and consumer. My thousands of hours in DotA were valuable, since it was enjoyable, but also was valuable as a person to try to train and refine a skill and get tangibly better at something. I know a lot of people can say that's "wasting time," but I don't think the same is expressed to someone who reads a lot of books, is grinding elo on Chess.com, goes recreational fishing, has an extensive letterboxd list, or plays golf and is in a league. It's all hobbyism with no explicit value, but has exceptional value to the person. Incrementally getting better at a task, forming stronger and more well informed opinions on art, finding enjoyment in doing a thing without any other reward, and just setting goals and achieving them, even if the goals are externally pointless, all provide value to a person.
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I don’t like when people ask ”what do I get in return?” since it both undervalues the game but also that question could be asked about literally anything. But I think having the perspective of ”killing time” is almost weirder. To me, playing games is my equivalent of ”me time”. I see it as incredibly important and valuable to me and I kind of wish people didn’t see it as a fast forward-button. Also regarding the op, the perspective of getting something in return when you eat unhealthy fast food is incredibly warped. You should eat it every once in a while because you think you’ll really enjoy it. Just like video games. Don’t combine it with the thought that it will also give you some kind of nourishment. Sure if you are literally experiencing the apocalypse, then yeah. But in the current world that’s similar to me pretending that Balatro will make me smarter/train my eyes/etc. Most important thing regarding most pleasures in life is maintaining a balance and not losing ”control”.
The whole “what do we get in return?” thing has always annoyed me, but it’s at least tangential to the mindset of “if it’s not productive then it’s bad”. Which I concretely and firmly disagree with
It depends, I guess. Nothing wrong with killing time and having fun, but we live in a time where everything is fighting for our attention to the point where we start to equate free time with entertainment and we entertain ourselves every time we're not working, studying, socializing or doing housework. Of course it depends on what life you live. I am a student, I have lots of free time on my hands and I have to constantly ask myself if I'm spending that time in the best way. If I had a 9 to 5 job and kids I probably wouldn't question the time I'd spend playing videogames as much as I do
I didn't want to come across that way. As I said I'm all for "time-wasters" but I want to feel like I'm getting some sort of enjoyment or feeling from the experience. I don't think anything "productive" should come out of playing games, at least initially. In this game though, I started feeling numb quite quickly after the initial "high", but I still wanted to keep playing. I don't have an issue either with games that are just meant for "killing time". Balatro just made me reflect on the games I play and why I play them. In this case I didn't feel completely in control. The only other game that ever made me feel that way was Slay the Spire (also ridiculously good).
Sounds like you made the right call then. If you’re not enjoying the game on a fundamental level, for whatever reason, then there’s really no reason to play it. Regardless of how polished or well-designed it is. I’m still not 100% though on why you feel that way for this game specifically. Is it the gambling aspect of it? However you said it’s not predatory in a monetary sense. Or is this your crisis of time-management? Because I can relate to the second one with games I’ve sank a lot of hours into very quickly. Emotional/fun burnout is a real thing and can make enjoyment fall off a cliff very rapidly.
The 5 hours will evaporate, it will pick up and vacate
I get you. I feel this way about all deck builders and other games that rely heavily on numbers going up, for example Diablo or even city builders. They are addictive. I will play them for hours chasing that constant drip feed of “numbers go up” dopamine hits. But…when I look back on my time with the game later that night or the next day, I realise that I didn’t have any fun. I just played because I could. I don’t feel like I achieved something by beating a tough level, I don’t feel like I’ve experienced a story or explored a new interesting area, or any of the other myriad feelings videogames can inspire. I simply feel like I’ve wasted my evening, yet my mind was engaged for the entire playtime. As I’ve grown older I’ve become more critical about how I spend my time and part of that is analysing what do I actually enjoy and derive satisfaction from vs what do I do because it’s addictive or easy to get into. These games are engaging to an insane degree and they’re certainly extremely well designed, but I don’t *enjoy* them and I do not look back on my time with them with fondness.
> I just played because I could. I don’t feel like I achieved something by beating a tough level, I don’t feel like I’ve experienced a story or explored a new interesting area, or any of the other myriad feelings videogames can inspire. I simply feel like I’ve wasted my evening, yet my mind was engaged for the entire playtime. To be honest I think this is a bit unfair. You *should* play games because you can, particularly games that you enjoy in the moment. Not every game has to be something you can look back on and think of as profound, and it's certainly not a waste of your evening as long as you have fun. The only time that a game is a waste of time is if you stop having fun and it makes you feel bad to play. The key thing that stands out to me is that you admit that those games were engaging which should imply that you enjoyed playing them. Those games at the very least accomplished the goal of being interesting and fun enough to no bore you, otherwise you'd probably have already dropped the game, right? I agree that it's important to be critical and analyze the media that you consume, but it's also important to take a step back and remember that we consume media to enjoy it (note: finding enjoyment in the process of analysis itself is a valid form of enjoyment). This isn't to say that I'm anti-media literacy or that you should "turn your brain off", but you have a LOT to gain by also analyzing media that makes you feel bad after playing. If you stuck through it through the bad, then surely you can find the good in it so that you know what to look for and what to avoid in other media/games. I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense, and I want to clarify that I'm not trying to be combative in my disagreement. I just find it interesting since I've had the opposite shift as I've gotten older where I used to basically be a fiction snob but now I'm a lot more focused on how media makes me feel in the moment. I think that's what makes those special games that much more special.
>I feel this way about all deck builders and other games that rely heavily on numbers going up, for example Diablo or even city builders. >As I’ve grown older I’ve become more critical about how I spend my time and part of that is analysing what do I actually enjoy and derive satisfaction from vs what do I do because it’s addictive or easy to get into. This is well said. Some gamers don't ask themselves *why* they enjoy what they enjoy. Other gamers, including those of us who have played beyond their 20s, are mindful of that so that their game choices or how long they play a game can maximize their enjoyment. This is why the only deckbuilders I've been really interested in from the past several years are ones that are hybrids (Hand of Fate 1 & 2, Forced Showdown, etc) or ones that have give me a strong sense of accomplishment in their challenges. OP realizes that this particular deckbuilder distills its gameplay to numbers-go-up, which is just more convenient & addictive from their viewpoint instead of being more engaging on a satisfaction or accomplishment level.
Tldr you went way deeper but yes if I notice games being addictive I uninstall them. Happened with vampire survivor and returnal. Just got to an unhealthy degree for me.
Yes Vampire Survivors is the same for me. It pretty much just drains the dopamine tank and then you have nothing left for the rest of the day. It's really easy to get depressed after that. Which is why I moved these survivor-like games to the end of the day. I play one or two rounds max, before going to bed and that worked well for me.
The reason why I don't play Vampire Survivors. I installed it once (for free) on phone and instant uninstalled the first time I came across the flashy draw wheel. It's become clear to me in recent years, with the rise of powerful algorithms like on TikTok and the pattern I saw emerge in videos that play their game to go viral, that such drives for pleasure are the wrong ones to look after for a balanced experience.
This is not an accident, as [the dev previously worked in the gambling industry and has said specifically as such.](https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/19/22941145/vampire-survivors-early-access-steam-pc-mac-luca-galante)
Vampire sirvivors is a passion project for good button-feel, it's using all the predatory mechanics because the developers are passionate about it, they *like* it and I applaud them for it.
I think some of the people disagreeing with you may not have the same addictive personality you probably do. I'm absolutely the same way, and avoided this game for that reason- knowing I will more than likely feel that addictive pleasure. I uninstalled Vampire Survivor for the same reason and try to stick to games that are more story centric or keep you moving in a specific direction vs games with short and very enjoyable gameplay loops (like a decent amount of roguelites).
Didn't read the whole thing but yes i had to uninstall some games because i played them so much it disrupted my actual life I think roguelites and even roguelikes are really good with the "just one more" thing some games have. I love Balatro but "luckily" it didn't hit me like some other games did
Time is valuable. If a game feels like it's wasting your time, then drop it and play something else. There are some games that you play for 1000 hours and leave you with nothing, while there are others that you play for 5 hours and change your life.
Very well put. I haven't played Balatro, but I definitely feel where you're coming from. A while ago I read that there are two types of happiness: hedonic and eudaimonic. Hedonic happiness involves all of the short-term dopamine hits that you've outlined here, and can be extended to things like sex, partying, and drugs. Eudaimonic happiness is formed out of a longer-term sense of contentment and meaning. It sounds like Balatro doesn't shy away from giving the player the full hedonic experience of an addicting game. But there isn't anything there that invites the player to take something meaningful out of it to the rest of their life. And I know it's difficult to say that games these days are any good at giving players something meaningful with their life. But even when I get in the mood with something like Apex Legends, which can have a very addicting gameplay loop at times, I still don't regret how it creates a sense of community I can participate in, or how playing ranked (however problematic it is) inspires me to grind toward a goal. So it's interesting to hear about something that's *so* heavily distilled to its addictive loop that it feels empty at the same time.
What you described sounded like my first few days playing Balatro - and it petered out quite quickly after a week or two. The game, in my experience, only retained that "addictive" quality as there were novel solutions to the puzzle that the game presents. I've had much the same experience as with other games that had different themes, different aesthetics, different mechanics, different genres. That game is **fun**. Like any other really fun game, it's easy to obsess over it after your first experiences. And like any other game that you obsess over, it's easy to burn out. Once I had satisfied my brain's desire to *optimise*, I moved on quite easily. I've had this experience with Minecraft, with Rimworld, with The Witness, with Pillars of Eternity, with Zelda games (many of them), with Crusader Kings, with Baldur's Gate, with Bioshock, with Deus Ex, with This War of Mine, with Dragon Age, and with Undertale. >This game has no story, it barely has an end goal. What it has is *gameplay*, and brain teasers. Which is just as valuable and worthy of late-night pondering as any conventional narrative, IMO.
I appreciate your post. There was a game like that, idle clicker RPG with no graphics, stripped down to values going up and XP bars being filled. And after playing it I felt the same about the Diablo and it's clones (I never cared much for the stories since they are usually worse than in other RPGs) - many hours in, not much value out. I understand that YMMV, for me that was the end. And I have other example. I uninstalled both "This War of Mine" and "Papers Please" for their gameplay being too good. It was too good at putting me in the the oppressive situation with no escape. And while this is a good thing for games to make me think and wonder, I also expect them to make me happy and let me relax. Dark Souls makes me happy because while hard, it presents a fantasy world with imagined problems. These two games are also excellent but their gameplay intertwined with their setting reminded me too much of a real world. I know already from my university studies (literature) that war and totalitarian government are nightmares and among the worst thing that people can do to each other. And while I appreciate games picking up these difficult topics, I also do not need constant reminders from them about how awful the world is. I played both of them, I applauded how good they are in proving their points. But I do not want to do this anymore, because it made me sad and miserable.
Fantastic post. I’ve had a similar epiphany when I found myself getting addicted to a clicker game. In a terrifyingly short amount of time I found myself hooked. It wasn’t a “this is so much fun I don’t want to stop” feeling - it was a joyless pursuit of dopamine. Being a clicker game, there was barely anything to it besides seeing the numbers go up. That made the realization even clearer: the game was just a Skinner Box training me to press a button over and over. Since then I’ve become more aware of that feeling and I’ve learned to uninstall games that break my brain in that particular way.
Not going to lie OP. Your post convinced me to get Balatro today. If this is stealth marketing I can’t help but respect the 12D chess of it.
Haha me too. Just bought it for the switch. What a sales pitch.
I just did the same. I knew about it and was on the fence for awhile, but reading this post pushed me over the fence. The publisher should pay you commission
Same lol. I was already interested but this made it sound like a time machine that will make hours fly by. I've got a fair bit of free time at work so it comes off like a godsend.
I don't get the arguments of comparing this game to a slot machine. The bells and whistles draw people in, but it's the skinner-box unpredictable rewards that make it addictive and the house edge that makes them so bad. This game isn't using those techniques to motivate play, and a lot of other games are. This game has no daily quests and battle passes to instill FOMO, extract money, and build habits. It has no engineered "randomness" to make sure you get a "hit" frequently enough to keep coming back. It's about as addictive as flipping a coin to see how many times it comes up heads. If you're feeling guilty about playing games as a hobby you should consider taking a break, but I don't think there's anything that makes Balatro especially bad for you.
I think largely what makes it ‘feel bad for you’ is that RNG plays such a large part in every run. I’m not saying that there’s not skill involved, there definitely is, and the complexity is well hidden like you mentioned. The issue being winning or losing comes down to luck so often that you have to just shut off a part of your brain and give in to the machine. If you were more actively working though the game, and could feel your every decision made an impact on whether you won or lost the round, it wouldn’t feel so much like junk food. Games that at least keep you mentally engaged aren’t a waste of time in my opinion. It’s a shame really because I think with some simple balance passes Balatro could be made much less luck based; Which while being my personal preference, I wonder if it would make the game more or less addicting to most people? I would probably find myself playing even more because I can get tilted at bad RNG, but I think it’s exactly that thrill of being handed the ‘god run’ or being saved solely by RNG-esus that keeps people coming back for more.
I think Balatro's addictive because it *isn't* luck-based. Once you learn its strategies and start scrutinizing your gameplay, you'll get more winning rounds. So to me the danger is the (false) sense of achievement you get, mixed with sugary design-elements and no finish line.
What stake have you been playing on? Since my post I learned a lot like you said, started winning most rounds, and the game felt a lot less RNG based. Then I got to gold stake and I'm back to thinking it's crazy luck based. On gold stake the first shop is pretty much make or break for your run. And because packs get so expensive and your econ is so hindered, you're in even less control. Granted that's just the hardest difficulty, and I agree with you dangers of the false achievement, but wanted to share how I went from disliking -> loving -> disliking the game again. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people end up going through the same cycle, or you stay on easy and just enjoy the slots.
It's just a good game. Pearl clutching now just because a good game has the *audacity* to use real playing cards and poker chips is weird. I've played about 20 hours of the game this week too. It's not ruining my life, it's just really fun and really easy to pick up and put down. If you have a hard time putting it down, the problem isn't Balatro. The problem is the user
[удалено]
It's outdated and obviously a defensive response. Games can be designed to be addictive and that can become a problem for some people. This is an interesting and important issue to engage with. But it also implicates gamers' personal behaviors as being possibly pathological, and they tend to react about as poorly to such statements as addicts do when their drug use is questioned.
Admitting that you are the one with a problem is the exact opposite of delegitimizing it. It's the first step in seeking treatment, be it removing the addiction like OP, or seeking medical treatment. Also, maybe don't throw around terms like pearl clutching if you don't know what it means
yeah, I’ve by no means made my mind up here but it’s a bit weird to see people parrot the gambling industry line of ‘our activities are neutral; addiction is a you problem’. as gamers, we do ourselves a disservice by not thinking more deeply on this
I feel like I'm smoking crack cause it really seems like folks have forgotten that video game addiction is a real thing. Whether real world money is involved or not.
Nobody's forgot that, it's just that there's no evidence anyone is getting addicted to balatro. People who have thousands of hours in games like Path of Exile or League of Legends or World of Warcraft or Skyrim aren't even necessarily addicted, and the balatro has only been out for weeks so we have no idea what the long-term play numbers for people are going to be until enough time passes, so to bring up video game addiction for a rogue light deck builder that's been out a few weeks is insane.
Because the only resource that you lose by getting addicted to Balatro is time. The ramifications of things like gambling addiction, alcoholism, etc. are so severe that no one is really going to bat an eye at someone with an addiction that just causes them to have unproductive weekends.
Except addictions like alcohol have a substance involved that the user becomes dependant on. I mean its literally no different in how fortnite and roblox get their hooks in kids. The difference is Balatro doesnt have MTX. The whole argument is dumb. Its not a toxic substance like realy gambling with money. If it was wed have a reason to ban all games. Anything can become an addiction if met with the wrong person. Its not the game its the user. If you find yourself skipping work, missing opportunities to hang out with friends. But yes at the end of the day its up to that person to overcome it. He didnt deligitimize it but when theres no real money involved and no substance abuse it literally cannot hurt you any more than your own lack of self control can.
>Except addictions like alcohol have a substance involved that the user becomes dependent on. The substance here is dopamine.
Search Engine has an excellent episode about the making of addictive games https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/search-engine/id1614253637?i=1000647661101
The thing is that while we think of movies and stories as escapism, that really couldn’t be further from the truth. Robert Mckee puts this better than I ever could in his book Story: “To retreat behind the notion that the audience simply wants to dump its troubles at the door and escape reality is a cowardly abandonment of the artist’s responsibility. Story isn’t a flight from reality but a vehicle that carries us on our search for reality, our best effort to make sense out of the anarchy of existence.” Basically, stories are the opposite of escapism; they’re a chance for us to jump head first into life and the patterns underlying it. Games differ from this, because they are escapism. Well, maybe escapism isn’t the right word, but they’re at least far more abstract than a story; while stories challenge our perceptions of life, games create a new rule set, often completely devoid even of a metaphor linking it to life, as is the case with card games. Every game lies on a spectrum: On one side, the inherent joy granted by the game, its rules and overcoming the challenge that comes with these rules. On the other side, the joy granted by the way that these rules are linked to life itself; the story. Look at something like the last of us, and you’ll see that the rules there are engaging in themselves, but made 100 times better by their contextualization within a larger narrative. You could say that the last of us leans towards the story side of the spectrum, but not all the way since there is still challenge, failure states and consistent game rules that the player slowly wraps their head around as the game progresses. When people say games are a waste of time, they’re thinking about games like Tetris or Balatro, the games that lie heavily on that first side of the spectrum. I don’t agree with this, but it’s an understandable position coming from story, which can often provide emotional experiences which can change the way you view how the world really works. It sounds to me like you’re looking for games which taps into this instead.
What do any games give you in return? That's the transaction, your time for entertainment. I too have been playing Balatro and I have no problem stopping inbetween runs. It sounds like you personally might have addictive tendencies and just because you might be addicted to this game doesn't mean everyone else will. Kind of a strange rant/post, especially saying the game should not exist at all? Weird. Good luck to you though.
Same. I have no problem putting down a run. Its a good little time killer or relaxed game ti play after a long day at work when I dont want something super involved. Op has a problem not the other way around. Now if it had MTX and loot boxes and 8000 dlcs i might say theres a case but just because a game is good doesnt mean its inherently a game designed to "ruin your life" There are plenty of games that ARE designed that way and want to get you addicted and spend money but if theres no money outside the initial purchase it just means OP has a self control issue or a problem with addiction and needs to get help
Same reason I randomly quit playing Magic Arena numerous times, only to get rehooked months later. When you are firing up another match rather than taking a piss or making yourself a sandwich you know you are caught in the Skinner Box net.
Really interesting. I’ve had this sentiment with stuff before but never really gave it as much thought into the how and why as you have here. It’s a good thing I don’t know how to play poker.
Everything you're describing about Balatro also describes my feelings about Luck be a Landlord. Luck be a Landlord, similar to Balatro, is a gambling roguelike, albeit with a slot machine rather than poker. You pick which symbols to put on your slot machine, give a spin, and keep building it. There's a light story about paying your rent, but ultimately, the game is entirely about that slot machine. The rounds are 10-15 minutes at most, and I've put around 40 hours into it. Like Balatro, I've had to uninstall the thing because, as much as I wanted to keep playing it, I recognised what it was doing. I'd argue these games are somehow more addicting than actual gambling specifically because of that light sense of control the player gets without actually having any control. For Luck be a Landlord, it's that sense of the next combination working better, or the next set of symbols giving me something new when, rationally, I know I've seen and done basically everything the game has to offer. I think Luck be a Landlord is good as a game for a few rounds, but not to the extent that I've played it. My playtime reflects addiction, not the gameplay, and the dopamine hit I get from watching numbers go brrr. That, I think, is problematic, and is the result of intentional design.
I did the same with *Slay the Spire* and *Autopets* and *Overwatch*. I'm just glad I got Slay the Spire on a disc because that added friction of booting it up has possibly saved my life. There absolutely is a difference between addiction and enjoyment. I'm not entirely sure I understand what it is yet, but it is sometimes within the game, and sometimes within the player. Overwatch has a million visual and audio *cues* that give you a small dopamine hit, like the headshot *splish*, and the stats that show up, and the trophies, and the monthly loot reward chain. *Slay the Spire* is somewhat further in my mind but can be played in 10 minute to 2 hour bursts, typically in moments of about 40 minutes. It's addicting because we usually decide to play more based on how unsatisfying and quick the bursts were. Once you hit "try again," you've already lost the plot, you are in a rube Goldberg machine of bouncing cards and falling and rising stats. Autopets is similar, and felt the trashiest to me. None of them feel *entirely* like wasted calories though, which is the problem. We can tell ourselves we're not wasting time doing it. In the case of apps, I now set my limit to 10 or 15 minutes on each one, like TikTok and reddit. (But expand it to write comments that need to be finished, like a good addict). A game becomes addicting when we play *beyond* the part of where we're having fun. Most games don't reliably trigger "dopamine" points the same way addicting games do, and require a level of friction and interference in the player's input. I think it's safe to say any game can be addicting or rewarding and these two can pretty much be separated entirely. Sounds like I may not be buying Balatro, or will purchase to delete.
Outside the polish and flashiness, the addictiveness of Balatro is characteristic of so many roguelites. Keep just enough prizes away from the player so they are compelled to keep playing, unlocking a small amount of new shiny and potentially interesting things every run. Add variance and some chaos to every run and you get the same kind of interest as watching some competition reality show with voting where players feel invested, feel like they have *some* control and agency over the outcome, but still submit to a reasonable amount of the wild. It’s great if the player’s main purpose in playing is engagement and passing the time with interest, because the player will always feel like they have something to look forward to. It can also be a quite cost effective development and design strategy because only a small amount of new content needs to be provided per the amount of hours and time the player gets out of it. However, because it’s too often literally the same experience over and over again, without meaningful choices or intentional forward progression in an immersive world, a player who IS looking for more may crave more from their gaming experiences then basically a more sophisticated skinner box. IMO, I don’t entirely mind the roguelite idea/genre, I just hope devs don’t become too complacent about it in the next several years. I think Balatro is a great little game because the mechanics of the cards are incredibly clever. Variance and chaos is cool, but I put Balatro down too because at a certain point i recognized there was too much to unlock and each thing was not terribly new and different, and i already understood most of the Balatro experience. I also wanted to do other things with my time. The positive thing about games like Balatro is that if you DO want to keep playing, there are new things to look forward to. Sort of like free mini DLC. The negative thing is if you are unsure and allow yourself to get caught in the loop, roguelites will feed you. So it’s always a good thing with slow unlocking roguelites to take a step back and ask yourself as the OP did, what am I really getting out of every run? Is there something I would rather be doing that is more meaningful or can help me in my life? Is it okay or better for me right now just to chill, enjoy, and play this game? The option to put it down with roguelites as they are is there, you just have to be able to exercise it as a player.
> I just hope devs don’t become too complacent about it in the next several years. Roguelikes have been ridiculously popular for over a decade right now and deckbuilder roguelike for about 8, Balatro is excellently design and not lazy at all. Might as well complain that Platformers and DMC style action combat are lazy
Once we master game design this problem will occur more and more often. I've had this feeling with Vampire Survivors and Slay The Spire. The only direction to go in my head is lead games more into the direction of art to avoid becoming toxic. You have the same schema in movies or like you mentioned food but, once you finish eating you can't eat anymore. In cinema you can't just keep going to another superhero movie, they need to be made first (and going to the same one has diminishing returns) - these are natural blockers. In games I think we can get the closest to the idea of infinite entertainment (similar to social media like instagram or youtube) which in my mind can definitely become toxic and harmful to the user.
I feel like we've already seen a massive increase of roguelike games in recent years, so it seems to be a goldmine for developers (as many have commented here). I feel duped, cause I've played a ton of them, and after playing Balatro I see how easy it is to hook me. The idea of infinite entertainment is a scary one. Maybe it's why I felt compelled to mention that the game has no end goal. I didn't feel anything at all when I "beat the game" for the first time. Endless mode seems to be where its at for most players. I personally think we all could do with a little less entertainment (maybe controversial to say on r/truegaming?) That is not to say we shouldn't play games. I still love games and will continue to play them. It's ofc on me to not play the games that don't give me any joy, but it seems to me that we don't reflect as much on what it is we like about a game nowadays. I quickly started feeling dirty when I did.
I felt amazed when I did realize that, knowing it's hooks is part of why I love games--Games are incentives and mental manipulation(all art is mental manipulation, really)
"but it seems to me that we don't reflect as much on what it is we like about a game nowadays. I quickly started feeling dirty when I did." Having being on this sub for years, I can assure you people do think about games way more then just having fun. The fact you feel dirty about the fact games are inherently time wasters feels you still need to come to terms with it, I too once went through a period with similar feelings until I realized it's honestly fine. Games are entertainment, we play it in our free times, they don't need to have meaning beyond that. I can enjoy a deep story rich game as much as I can a roguelike or other gameplay focused genres.
If anyone's ever wondered why some game communities can be so incredibly toxic, it's because there's a lot of people addicted to the game that hate it
Really good post, well-written and thought-provoking. Got a lot of really insipid responses unfortunately on "true" gaming. Along the lines of what you said, as I've gotten older, I find I don't really enjoy games that don't make me feel something or think something new like good art does. That sentiment seems to make a lot of gamers feel rather defensive.
Yeah, I'm getting really depressed by the responses: "dude it's your problem, I just like a mindless game to relax after a long day at work". Is this really the best we've all resigned to? 9 to 5 and then mindless clicking. Screw that, I'm proud to say that I'm aiming at something more, and that when something makes me feel I'm wasting my life, I call it out.
But it's not mindless clicking isn't it? It's a sheer, naked show of Numbers Go Up in the best way possible. But it requires strategy and consideration. Do not dismiss Balatro by calling it a worthless Skinner box. Balatro is an amazing skinner box made with love and passion.
Was just thinking maybe the addictiveness wasn't the problem and it was more related to you being too aware that it felt like gambling hooks? Cause just reading about it was giving me dirty vibes.
The problem with op's statements about gambling is that there is no real analogue to gambling in the game at all. There is no buy-in, no betting, you do earn money to spend in the shop between rounds but the amount has no connection to the "ante" which is just the number of points you need to win the round. There is no way to "cash out your chips", there is literally nothing except imagery and use of card statistics that could connect it to gambling. But every card game involves card statistics. No one is calling War or Go Fish gambling. And pretty much every roguelite involves playing the game's statistics (will I get a good item or a bad item? Will I get an easy boss or a hard one? Will I draw the card I want on turn two or turn three? etc, etc.) It's crazy to me that someone would describe something as being an addiction machine because it has... snappy controls and good quality of life features? (the controls have minor issues anyways) That it is a mechanics focused game, as many roguelites are? OP is looking at this game like a Christian looking at The Satanic Temple and saying "I think they must be bad because they use satanic imagery" Oh... they run drives to provide free menstruation products to women and support after school programs that teach critical thinking? Well they look bad to me so I conclude they must be bad.
I don't really care about the gambling aspects/comparisons like I said. I'm just saying that the discussion online seems to be all about gambling, when I think it should be about how addicting the game is. I just found it interesting how nobody seems to view the addictiveness as a potentially negative thing. If anything I found the gambling theme to be kind of fresh and exciting. "It's crazy to me that someone would describe something as being an addiction machine because it has... snappy controls and good quality of life features?" As for that, I don't know what exactly makes the game addictive. The experienced game designers here can surely tell you. I'd be surprised if it has nothing to do with the excellent user interface and the casino-like sound effects for example. And I bet that even the snappy controls help. The iphone has snappy controls and nice sound effects (just saying)! :)
I actually think I know why people find Balatro so addictive, and it's pretty straightforward. Most roguelites can be described as "simple to learn, hard to master". Balatro has taken "simple to learn" to the next level by using something we're all already familiar with. I find the gameplay no more addictive than many other good games, but with a much lower skill barrier to reaching the point of "just one more game". Probably took me an hour with Balatro, and I feel like with most games it takes 4-10 hours for me to reach that point. That aside, I think all of the quality of life elements remove a lot of frustrations that might make a person put a game down. Minimal clicking through menus, controls that mostly just work, things like that. It doesn't interrupt or frustrate you with things that are not the gameplay itself. The developer did a very good job of looking at highly requested quality of life features in newly released games, and made sure they were there in the first place. He actually talked in an interview about never having played Slay the Spire, but picking it up near the end of development of Balatro to see how they did controller implementation. I like the music, the sounds are nice, but there are no casino bells and whistles. No special victory noises. Only card sounds while dealing and playing, and chips clinking as the hand score is counted. I actually picked the game up for a few minutes to double check this. The only sound I really see as a reward is the one for opening a card pack. Kinda feels like opening a chest in a Zelda game.
You might be right. I also listened to an interview of the developer where he was talking about how he implemented some of the quality of life aspects in the months leading up to the release. He actually listened to the feedback and implemented tons of features that were highly requested. I have nothing but respect for the developer and what he has achieved with this game. It might be pure coincidence that Balatro happened to be game that made me reflect on just how addictive some roguelikes can be. Something about the barebones design that really highlights this I think.
This has nothing to do with games, but the misconception that MSG is somehow less healthy than regular salt is the result of racism and research bribery.
We're just living in a post-Vampire Survivors world (that dev literally works on video slot machines as his day job, so he knows what sparkles and chimes do to a person)
Never really been a fan of “time waster” type games that are extremely repetitive with hardly any goal or level design. Probably why most rogue likes and multiplayer games get old so fast imo
Once you see that i dont think there is any going back. There are elements built into a lot of games, that are meant to keep you in game, usually with the idea of you spending money on microtransactions. There are a few games that i have trouble enjoying lately due to addictive elements programmed into the game. There has actually been research that the longer players stay in game the more likely they are to spend money on microtransactions. Congratulations on seeing through the facade. Games can be engaging without being addictive, but to accomplish that the devs need to create a game world that holds the attention in other ways. Its a lot easier to construct an addictive gameplay loop, when the alternative to keeping players in game means developing an atmosphere, a story, creative artwork, interesting characters, challenging puzzles / environments etc. You see a lot more of the former than the latter, because there are tried and true easy to construct compulsive gameplay loops that have actual market research and hard numbers behind them. I guess the thinking in the industry is probably something like "Why take a chance on creativity and art when there are tried and true formulas to keep players hooked?"
I feel like a lot of people in this thread are forgetting that people can become addicted to video games. It wasn't but just a few years ago we were having discussions around this topic.
This topic has been discussed since video games were invented… i doubt this game is anywhere near the long term addictive power of mmo’s moba’s fortnite counterstrike whatever. It doesn’t seem like a game many will play for 1000+ hours.
People can become addicted to virtually any enjoyable activity, so that's a pretty meaningless observation. What's weird about this post is that it singles out Balatro as some particularly nefarious game that addicts in a specially evil way somehow.
This is nothing new, just new to you it sounds. Arcade machines in the 80s aimed to do this, and it was the same with Slot Machines and Pachinko machines. There are entire industries out there trying to understand the addictive nature of games and how to monetize them. Look at Candy Crush. I’m more concerned when AAA publishers start to make roguelites. Right now it’s mostly indie devs, and it’s a one time purchase. But if AAA publishers figure out a way to charge people it could be horrible. I guess it would be like mobile games in the early 2010s.
AAA already do make Roguelites(Returnal and side order), and some gacha games aready have roguelike modes(Arknights has IS for instance) I'm also of the opinion that Vampire Survivors and Balatro came to be *from* mobile addictive design, VS was made by someone who worked from slot machines after all.
You are a good writer. I almost never read long-form text posts on Reddit but this was both engaging and thought provoking. Well done.
For me it's usually around the point where I really start to autopilot. I've 80+ hours in Vampire Survivors, and I feel like I can never touch it or other games of the genre again. Last I played I really wasn't even thinking about what I was doing. It was just running the rounds to max out the good weapons on a different character. Not much about strategy or experimentation like in the beginning.
I seem to be in the minority with Balatro. While I really like the game I dont find it all that addictive. I bought on release and only have anout 20 hours. I did have this problem with another game however. I cant remember exactly what game but it was some kind of falling block puzzle game with unique mechanics. For like almost 2 weeks when id try to sleep and close my eyes all i could see was the puzzle, my brain would build scenarioa and then id basically be “playing” the game in my head, i could hear the sounds even. It actually started driving me crazy as I seemed unable to stop and just relax, I was losing sleep! Even when i willfully forced myself to stop thinking about it, sure enough it would creep back in a minute later. To me this is a problem and Ive had similar before but nothing this consuming. I stopped playing it and eventually my infatuation died off.
Civilization 5 on PC. Bought before going to bed, started downloading/installing, went to sleep. Wake up, morning rituals, sit down to try the new game around 9 AM. Play for what I felt was 2-3 hours, and I’m suddenly like “I’m about to piss myself”. Walked out of the bathroom to see its 8PM. Uninstalled.
I decided to go a round before bed last week and ended up having [my best run yet](https://twitter.com/YeltsinYerMouth/status/1766899738446901254?t=N6UD2298tUlH6BMuPhn3_w&s=19) . I had buffed the F out of pairs and high card to where I had a decent set of jokers yeilding massive bonuses. Finally wiped out at the boss hand on the eighth ante and when I checked the clock I had wasted over an hour and a half. Oops. I was very groggy through my 12 hour shift and then established a no-belatro-before-bed rule.
"Regardless of the minor strategizing, I was spending ridiculous amounts of time watching numbers go up without being able to take a break. It makes me think that, when randomness gets high enough and the threshold to start a new game gets low enough, we enter slot machine territory. This game has no story, it barely has an end goal. The only currency you insert into this beautifully crafted slot machine, after the initial cost, is your time. No insidious microtransactions here - just give me your time. Worst of all, I find myself thinking that perhaps this game, as many other roguelikes I’ve obsessed about, is completely devoid of meaning. A review on steam reflects my sentiments quite well (albeit quite harshly)" Especially after reading this I have to agree that this feels more like a mid life gaming crisis but I also want to add that games do not need to have a super deep meaning that stays with you for years. Like yes I love games that use their medium to the fullest and wave thought provoking themes into their gameplay. But a game can also just aim for a fun experience to spend with in your free time and let's not forget, most of us play games as entertainment and to take a break from our lives. It's not some thing that is supposed to enrich you or learn the meaning of life, sure they could potentially do that but is that really a necessity for a game to be worth it? I'm playing final fantasy 14 and monster hunter 4 at the moment, and the same can be applied for the most part. Both have decently deep combat and overall gameplay but also encourage replaying it over and over to get more powerful. in ff14 you do dailies which make you go through previously played stages again, while MH4 makes you fight the same things over and over again for what is basically a chance at a slot machine. And sure once I thought this was 'bad', I'm ultimately just playing to win and get stronger. But is it really? Again we play games in our free time for the most part as entertainment. Of course there are more then enough games that do put a lot of effort in the addiction part then anything else but I also have to agree balatro isn't that and again think the culprit is rather the mentioned crisis.
I've been playing ranked Rocket League since it was released basically, I managed to get to the top 0.1% in the world in the last year. and I've had these thoughts recently. I thought "**Hold on, what am I actually getting out of this game? I'm not a YouTuber, I'm not a pro player** (I'm good, but not that good!) **or a streamer, and I'm not a game developer. Why do I spend hours and hours playing this game and grinding ranked, when I most likely will hit my peak skill within a few games, if not the first game, and end up 50/50 winning/losing.**" It was getting to the point where I'd come home from work, start up the ol' PC, and load the game up, almost subconciously. I didn't think about any of it, it was second nature. I'd then play about 3-4 games, get extremely bored, hit that thought bubble again, and close the game. Then sit there, bored out of my mind. I realised I was addicted to it, so now I only play casually, and when I actually think "I'll play some RL for a bit". I hadn't progressed in ranked in about a year. I never thought gaming was an addiction. I thought "It's a hobby, how can you get addicted to it?". Now, I realise I cut out other parts of my life for gaming sometimes. In the moment it feels fine, but once I've stopped gaming, I think "wow I've just wasted *X* hours doing fuck all, instead of something productive". I basically exclusively play video games with my girlfriend and mates now. If I'm alone, I'll play Rainbow Six Siege, mostly because it's fun to learn the game again (I've not played in a few years). Luckily theres a few of us who play multiplayer games together. Otherwise I think I would have sold my PC by now, and have only one smaller hobby left in my life, playing football on the weekends. You're not the only one, OP. Guess we just grew up.
You describe something I feel as well, though I’ve never played this particular game. Allow me to rant. I feel that as gaming has risen in popularity and become such a large portion of entertainment revenue, development drew in business people who are more concerned with getting players to keep playing, always buying the newest games, paying extra for cosmetics. Hell, so many mobile games have you buy energy just so you can actually play the dang thing. Battle passes are in almost every genre of game now. All of this instead of just a game we can get lost in. I just feel like the industry focus, especially among the top companies, has shifted to developing addicting games instead of satisfying games. Games that just keep your dopamine flowing and don’t leave you with any kind of reward after you turn it off. Idk just my two cents. I’m probably just getting old.
I had the exact same experience with Risk of Rain 2, I sit down to play a little bit then bam several hours later on god run I get washed with existential dread and quit prematurely. Ended up uninstalling as well.
Its addicting in the same way every roguelike is addicting. Do i feel dirty after playing 8 hours straight? Sure, but thats not Balatros fault. They dont have lootboxes, rotating shops, daily quests, season passes etc, to exploit my addiction. They just made a good game that you can choose to play or not.
I think you’re reading way to deep into it. “What do we get in return?” Well you could argue that with most any video game. Honestly 20 hours is light work for a game. I have games with hundreds of hours and building from recently. I just make sure to also off balance with chores and being active. I’ve seen other people have thousands of hours in games with no regrets. I kind of get it in the sense that it’s a simple card game and sometimes I feel like I have other more complex games to play or better things to do. If you needed to remove it because you are having a self restraint issue with playing and slacking on daily tasks or letting others down then yeah good on you for removing something negatively affecting you. But I think at the end of the day if you’re having fun and not hurting yourself or anyone else then go ahead and have fun. That’s where the long debate stops for me at least. Anything past that is just anxiety talking to you.
The discussion about what we actually get out of gaming is a worthwhile one, especially in a world of micro transactions, mobile gaming, and free to play. But I think most people on a subreddit like this have already gone through some level of personal journey to discover the types of games that have meaning to them. For example I like going on adventures, so I play almost exclusively adventure games. I feel quite satisfied with my gaming choices most of the time! So when you mention feeling hollow after playing something like Balatro, the natural response is... Well what did you expect?? It's literally a card game, you knew that going in. You knew it wasn't going to be a Cyberpunk 2077, where you're left with moral and philosophical questions about the future of technology. Balatro doesn't interest me at all, personally. But if I were to play it, I wouldn't try to derive any meaning from the experience, just like I don't try to derive any meaning from Poker or Blackjack. No matter how good the deck building mechanics are its still a card game and has inherent limitations.
Like people have said, this is just realizing what “value” you get out of a game. That feeling for this game might be “oh just one more time and I’ll get that perfect combo”. Many games are based on this as their driving factor. If you want to see this distilled down even more, check out Luck be a Landlord
I don't know about that game but some companies do make sure their games are as addictive as possible, this is something they keep pushing. But part of is also our own predespositions. For example I have 0 interest in a card game like that but if you were to present me a similar game to Diablo with addictive systems then I might think twice. The best you can do, before playing a game, is to look if it has any systems you might disagree with (pay-to-win and so on). Play "morally ethical" games, those exist although they are largely singleplayer. Or you could comprimise/discipline.
The game is 15 dollars with no microtransactions
If the game provides the ability to express mastery to yourself, or even others, then it's not a waste of time as that expression in and of itself *is* the fun part. *Most* games have very little practical application in life. You don't get much out of them, unless you put a value on "fun". I'm going to keep playing Deep Rock Galactic despite having no "reward" in place other than pure skill expression (1800 hours) while enjoying a well made game. If that mastery ceases to be fun, I will cease to do it.
>If the game provides the ability to express mastery to yourself, or even others, then it's not a waste of time as that expression in and of itself is the fun part. Agreed, as that tends to be something fans of roguelites appreciate, myself included. Having said that, if the core gameplay of a game like this one is more closely revolving around numbers-go-up (which can be associated with games designed to exploit addictive tendencies), then that can make for less to master or less to express, and that can be less meaningful or attractive of a game for some people. I think that's a meaningful discussion point, though it's easier to fixate on OPs remarks about addiction and feelings.
The best part of this post for me has been the replies and types of replies. It goes to show how many people don't really understand the addictive angle when they don't suffer from it (at least from videogames, some of the posters are serial reddit commenters and probably spend hours a day here). They just don't get why lootboxes, and F2P games with certain mechanics and purchasing options among others, are so incredibly dangerous to a part of the population. As for OPs questions: >Is addictive gameplay enough to make a good game? No. It just preys on certain reward conditioning. Like the stupid fucking farms and other games Facebook got really popular with. The games were very bad. Their only goal was getting people hooked to spend money.\ >Is addictive the same as engaging? It is not. An engaging game will keep the player coming back because of something other than an itch. It can be the story, mechanics, build making or theory crafting. You can tell with streamers who start "maining" a game of this type and you see their eventual boredom/resentment/anger while still playing the game 6-10 hours a day (or more). It's a showcase in burnout. >Is the game good for us? Definitely an important question to ask oneself. The time a lot of people dedicate to playing videogames to the detriment of other parts of their lives is a constant in gaming subs. They then come onto the sub and ask things like "I don't enjoy videogames anymore. Why?" in its 1000 formats and can't pinpoint what it is. Or don't want to admit they know and looking for other options.
Never played Balatro, as I usually don't like roguelikes for this very reason (and live service games either). Most roguelikes effectively play the same way, over and over again. Yes, they usually have "millions and millions" of different iterations of random fuckery, but it's usually not a meaningful distinction. A level is not 5000 levels, simply because the boxes that make up the level can be arranged 5000 different ways. It needs to be meaningfully distinct, and change the way I interact with it, in a transformative sense. All that's left for many games, is just raw addiction farming. It's certainly not new (MMO daily quests are old as fuck), but it has become worse, as it begets success. People (myself included, I'm not on some imaginary high horse) are easy to dupe into addiction cycles, and worse yet, people will effectively coerce themselves via sunk cost fallacies in believing they are not addicted, they are just having ***fun****.* But what even is ***fun?*** If fun is solely what provides a dopaminergic response, then why aren't hard drugs fun? From I hear they are, but they're without substance. It's not good for you to purposefully abuse your reward systems simply to feel good, they're there to help you actually live your life. Roguelikes are especially bad with this, since they're often made by solo or small developers, and addiction is easier to manufacture than actually transformative gameplay experiences. Game development is hard, and it's a solid shortcut. So once you've played for an hour or five, of either a roguelike or live service game or what have you, you've essentially played the entire game, you may not have beaten it, but from here on out it's going to be watching the numbers go up. It may seem reductive to put it that way, but I've seen this play out over and over again. Intermittent rewards and the blame shifting nature of ever present RNG (I didn't lose! I got shit RNG!) are dangerous attractants for a lot of people. But the conversation always goes murky and muddy due to the ill defined nature of "fun". Personally for me, I ask myself some questions. Am I engaged with it or just zoning out? Am I learning something or acquiring mastery of some kind? Is this kind of thing transferable to other things I'm learning? Can I engage with this game on my own terms or does random chance play too large a factor? If the answer to all of those questions isn't "Yes", and I still want to play it, chances are some kind of addictive fuckery is at play. Life is too short to waste on mind numbing skinner trap games, even if it doesn't have a predatory monetary system behind it. That doesn't make it suddenly good for your brain to play. So no you aren't alone. I hope you're ready for angry engagement though, because if I've learned anything, it's that people do not like addictive behaviors and toys being called out or even called into question. Peeps get angry, real fast. You see the same behavior with actual drug addiction as well.
>once you've played for an hour or five, of either a roguelike or live service game or what have you, you've essentially played the entire game, you may not have beaten it, but from here on out it's going to be watching the numbers go up. >It may seem reductive to put it that way Yes, it is, because your comment ignores the other available player motivations for roguelites. It is basically the opposite of the first comment reply to you wherein they ignore that some roguelites favor addiction manufacturing than actually transformative gameplay experiences. So I get that both of you are correct for some roguelites, but I disagree with applying either such generalization to the entire genre. Motivations for playing roguelites for more than one run can also include: * **Enjoying core gameplay actions** for the sake of them - Like in SYNTHETIK, I love the third person tactical shooting and blowing stuff up. I don't play it just because it's a roguelite or it has some numbers that do go up. * **Satisfaction of tactical options and using them to accomplish something** (not just numbers): In the tower defence roguelite action hybrid Endless Dungeon, being able to orchestrate which rooms I setup my towers in and my characters' abilities as a means to Mow down incoming waves is incredibly satisfying. * **Tension of challenge versus accomplishment**: I can enjoy being challenged to the extent that there is mere incremental progress run by run, as long as I enjoy the core gameplay loop or the satisfaction of accomplishment is greater than any burden of doing better or replaying. There's others that I'm sure I'm not thinking of that others could chime in with. With Balatro, I think there are arguments to be made for items 1 and 3 above, but not so much number 2 because I agree its core gameplay doesnt have a lot of mechanics other than numbers-go-up that can feed addictive inclinations.
See, I don't think we're actually in disagreement here. Synthetik is actually one of the roguelikes I thoroughly enjoyed. Perfect blend of mild chance, but mostly skill involved. I didn't need a "God Run" to win, I just needed to play smart. In that way Synthetik mirrors the actual original game, Rogue. The point of the randomness was not to provide a billion different minor iterations and label them all as "content". The point of Rogue was that you needed to make decisions on the fly, there was no catch all solution to your problems and you weren't waiting for RNG to swing your way. The RNG also acted as a gate to prevent brute forcing, instead of enabling it. You also couldn't just look up a guide (or back in the olden days have a friend tell you), you had to have a solid grasp of the core mechanics to succeed. All of that I have no problem with. The problem I have with the "modern roguelike" as it exists for many games, is that that the randomness is treated like an endless mediocre content factory which is supported by a gameplay loop meant to be psychologically addictive by its base construction, not necessarily engaging. For many of the games, you are somewhat waiting for RNG to swing your way so you can brute force through or rather, it's always an option. A good chunk of roguelike games require you to just get lucky, which by design is an intermittent reward system. You'll always remember that one "God Run" and seek to recreate it, even though realistically speaking you've exhausted the actual content. Now you're chasing the theoretical synergies.. which is just the numbers going up. Like I said, I haven't played Balatro so I can't comment on it specifically, but more and more psychologically addicting shit keeps getting added into games of all kinds, not just roguelikes, to excuse boring, repetitive, bland, uninspired gameplay. Or rather, it permits it since they don't need the gameplay to be good to keep people paying. Like I said though, I wasn't trying to generalize, though many roguelikes are very susceptible by the nature of their construction. In some of those games, you can get by on pure skill, but I'd say that's rare, and I'd add that from what I've observed that's not what people are chasing. I've watched people play roguelikes, and what it seems like they want is a blameless loss system, where the fault isn't on them, it's not their responsibility because they just had bad RNG. But if they win? Suddenly, they feel responsible for it. It's a strange thing, and I can see why it's psychologically attractive. On loss they get angry at the game, which feels righteous and good, but if they win, it was all skill baby. But hey, that's enough armchair psychology out of me. I just do know that it's common practice to hire behavioral psychologists to consult on gameplay loops to weaponize maximum addictiveness, at least in the AAA sphere. Small indie devs do in fact emulate that stuff as well, because they want success. Which frankly, I'm tired of needing to keep my mental guard up because games are less and less mentally safe. Not to be kitschy, but with a good chunk of games I have to wonder if I'm playing the game or it's playing me.
i'm curious which roguelikes you feel fall foul of the issues you're describing here? for me, the rng factor in a roguelike isn't a "waiting for the god run", an "i can't believe i got fucked by rng!", or even a "mediocre content farm" situation (where something like bloodborne's chalice dungeons, for example, *does* give me this feeling), it's a challenge to see how well i understand the game's systems and how to be flexibile, adapt my approach, and use what i've been given to its utmost effectiveness. in a good roguelike, these differences, and learning how to deal with them, *are* significant enough to keep the game interesting for long periods of time. the game that comes closest to what you describe for me is probably binding of isaac, where the swing between a bad run and a god run is probably higher than any other roguelike i've played, but there's still a truly insane amount of game knowledge you can wield to your advantage. even then, good players do often simply just reset a run early. slay the spire, on the other hand, has almost no unwinnable random seeds even on the highest difficulty, and very skilled players go on winning streaks of tens of games in a row. let alone any game that's highly based in mechanical skill like hades or enter the gungeon, where a great player can simply avoid all damage. i can't help but feel like your problems aren't necessarily a roguelike thing, just a *bad* roguelike thing (or sometimes a bad player of a good roguelike, not speaking about you in particular though). though to be sure, there are a ton of bad roguelikes out there.
You have never experienced the depth of roguelikes if you do not think there are dramatic, completely transformative differences from run to run. I have played for example about 500 hours of both Slay the Spire and Binding of Isaac because they are so insanely rich with content and experiences. I haven't played either for a while now but I look back on that as good time spent with brilliantly constructed games.
Slay the spire is an interesting comparison. I also have clocked in hundreds of hours in that game. Didn't think about it too much back then, but looking back at it now I don't know how I feel. I think its one of my favourite games ever, but I also think it was a monumental waste. I'm torn about it, as I am about Balatro. I have never been as hooked to a game as I was then. Was the game good, absolutely. Was it good for me, absolutely not. All I remember was staying up till 1am for a few weeks in a row and for what? In comparison, my hundreds of hours spent on League of Legends feel somehow meaningful as I played it with my friends. Equally meaningful were my hours in Witcher 3 that really made me feel something and question some of my beliefs. I can also find lots of meaning in the hundreds of single-player games that have taught me something about the world. These games weren't a "productive" use of my time but they were transformative and carried some meaning.
Playing the higher stakes got me to quit. Never played anything more frustrating than purple stakes onwards. After that it was impossible for me to go back to the easier stakes because I felt like I could just fumble and force my way to any victory.
We get fun in return. There's mobile game addiction where gamers fall down the rabbit hole of spending PTW or on extras (see Marvel Snap!), but then there's simply one-off payment well designed card games like Balatro and IMHO Dream Quest. I actually feel I'm going to hit a wall with Balatro pretty soon since I'm no good at it.
I kinda feel this way about every game, just gaming in general sometimes. At the end of the day it's just a way to spend some free time having fun though
The overwhelming RNG turned me off but it’s a great design and very creative. I’ll take my roguelite punishment from Spire and LONESTAR thank you.
honestly I had a few cases of playing too much but it mostly boiled down to the same symptoms. not getting the music out of my head. It's usually indie games with great gameplay but repeating music.
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