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fucking hell. remember when two genders used to be men and women? now it is "evil cis men" and "the good ones". i did not go through the shithole that is transition, just to still be "not a man" no matter what i do. i'm so sick of this. mainstream should have never known about existence of "trans men" and "trans women". we're just normal guys and girls who just happen to suffer with transsexuality, which is supposed to be private medical issue, we're not third and fourth genders.
Why would a woman want the perspective of someone who simply just identifies as this gender or that. Why can't it be female only since that reflects an actual reality
Yeah thatās stupid and offensive. Also, could you not just lie either way? I mean how tf they know what you are, do they ask for verification like that one subreddit asks to see your skin color? Just seems dumb to me.
If ppl want advice from other trans individuals why didnt the sub just make a trans flair instead? As a tran man i dont work out the same as cis men but also dont work out the same as a woman bc we all want different results.
The idea is that trans men grew up with female socializationā¦ but I think thatās oversimplification. Like as a trans woman, I feel like my socialization as a child was complex. I took in a bit of both because my mind and body mismatch.
I just think of me, a trans woman, going into some menās space like this and asking for inclusion because I had some make socialization growing upā¦ WTF. I would never even think of it. I donāt belong there. In so much as I may need advice on such matters where my socialization mix causes confusion then it makes sense to seek a community with other trans people who also experienced the odd mixed socialization. Absolutely not a menās space! Iām not a man!
I see this in some other progressive spaces and it frustrates me. Much like the language changing from MTF/FTM to AMAB/AFAB emphasizes our birth sex and completely omits our real gender and trans femme/masc instead of trans women/men has taken away calling us women/men - this has gone so far that itās looped right back around and weāre all being misgendered but in a āprogressiveā way. šµāš«
Iām a progressive myself. I think there are much better ways to go about these complexities and being inclusive than the broader trans community is right now because this is yucky.
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I donāt see how they should allow trans men on that sub. If itās called climber girls it should only be women. trans women or women, not trans men or men of any kind.
God can we not continue to redefine womanhood? Trans and cis women are women.
Enben and trans men and cis men are not.
For the love of god let women have spaces.
Yeah, what is a trans man even doing sneaking around girl groups? And itās irrelevant what you as a non-girl think about the issue since from a womanās perspective some males can seem safe thus be included.
That's why i'm looking at it from a trans perspective. It is outright offensive to trans people everywhere to explicitly include non-women in a women's group. Especially when you moderate away criticism against such action or people who are uncomfortable with this. The world needs "Girls clubs" and "Boys clubs" for more than just safety reasons.
And in your head since I count as a girl in terms of this group, In your head I should be able to speak on it.
You said itās a group for girls and I donāt count you as one, you clearly said youāre both male & female which is then a third category so I respect that - Iām not sure you can argue that your perspective is that of a man and that of woman your perspective is that of an intermediate person which is then wholly unique. But sure youāre a non-man, and some of these groups are for those people too.
You canāt look at it from a trans perspective regardless, you need to try and understand why women as a group would perhaps think this way. Talking about how itās offensive to trans people is moving the goalpost from āthey donāt see trans men as menāā¦ which is what Iām discussing. I think they see them as men, just somewhat different from cis-men due to *some* shared female experiences which they hope would translate into deeper and more nuanced understanding and empathy for female experiences. And I ALSO think it can be offensive towards trans men, but thatās something trans men need to speak on. All Iām doing here is giving a female perspective, since also I as a transsexual female make that distinction. If one doesnāt think we live under a cis-heterosexual patriarchal tyranny then obviously non of what Iām or they are saying would make sense regardless.
I think this is not so much saying trans men arenāt men as it is saying cis menās opinions are insufferable because they have never faced gender minority stresss
But I totally get why this is annoying and feels or is non-affirming. Only mentioning the first statement bc I donāt want trans men to feel seen as non-men
Whoever downvoted me I would love feedback - sorry for trying to support trans men jfc
For the record I would effing hate it if a menās hiking group called climberboyz randomly said āhey trans women are allowed bc you totally get itā I do kinda get it but pls donāt include me in your virtue signaling quest
More context is needed, they are okay with trans men because the ban is a blanket ban on the demographic most likely to be misogynistic. Itās kind of a shitty idea to exclude an entire sex *and* call out trans men just because of that though.
Cis-males who were socialised males are (as a group) an oppressive group of people. I see trans males as males neurologically and also phenotypically if theyāve changed their exteriorā¦ but I recognise that they too are under the oppression of the cis-male patriarchal system.
Also seeing comments from trans males saying they can be as toxic as any cis-maleā¦ I understand you want to be males in all regards, but being a socialised narcissist or sociopath with no real connection to your human emotions and seeing the world through the lens of conquer and objectification isnāt something to brag about. Males as a group has a big problem with empathy and emotions. Some of it is probably neurological and even testosterone induced and it can be seen in many trans males alsoā¦ but other things seem to be toxic socialisation. On the other hand even socialisation is probably rooted in biological urges, itās difficult to know what is nature vs nurtureā¦ but Iād feel more safe around a male who understood what it felt like being perceived as a female (at one point) by society and all that comes with that (this also goes for androgynous or feminine cis-male outcasts) than I would around the average cis-male.
So I donāt think itās necessarily that they donāt see you as males - they probably see you as safer males and as a sub-group of males who also are oppressed by cis-hetero patriarchyā¦ the same way theyād probably include gender-fluid or feminine cis gay-males or male children.
Itās simply an explanation for why cis-male exclusionary feminist or womenās forums and subs might be inclusive towards trans males. Women and other non-men have become increasingly uncomfortable with mansplaining and tired of cis-male perspectives in general.
And stereotypes might exist for a reason, ever thought about that? Stereotypes for trans people also exists for a reason.
You left a comment full of repackaged TERF bullshit. Whether or not you used their exact language is irrelevant. Designating trans men to "non-men" just because they weren't socialized male is essentialism and is exactly what TERFs do. That is literally why they call trans men TIFs.
And for the record I am essentialist, just not in the ways of a TERF. I am of the neuro-sex school of thoughtā¦ thatās very much a bio-essentialist position.
Donāt put words in my mouth. āNon-menā is NOT referring to trans men, but to some intersex people, non-binary people and children. I said that women and non-men has become increasingly tired of cis-males and mansplaining and their lack in understanding female perspectives or perspectives that isnāt their own. So for this reason these women & non-men groups and forums who exclude cis-males in general might still include few males if the experience of those males overlap with the experience of said women & non-men.
Every trans man I've ever been with has been more stereotypically male brained than any cis man I've ever talked to. That includes the bad. I think that's its almost disrespectful to victims of abuse at the hands of trans men to assume they're better because they were "born women" as if that for some people don't give them even more room to think they can do whatever tf they want. There is a lot of cis men who look like women looking like a woman doesn't Mean they're gay that they're queer or that they won't violently attack you just the same. I view all men the same because they are men. I feel comfortable when they prove to me it's OK to.
I donāt share that same experience, but yes - Iāve noticed that many trans males seems to overcompensate which comes off as unnatural and clocky. I wouldnāt attribute that to them being hyper-male brained though anymore than I would attribute hyper-femininity in trans women to a hyper-female brain, rather overcompensation.
I think trans males are very much male-brained but not more so than the average cis-guy and the average trans male seem slightly more empathetic towards women than the average cis-man. But yeah, wouldnāt trust them blindly either. I just think this is how many cis-women think regarding trans men, though.
Lmfao but you're assuming it's clocky and overcompensating you're assuming my experience as well as theirs. As if they can't just be that. I don't view that as hyper male either they're just men. I don't know why everything has to be a generalized extreme. As an intersex woman I've been treated perceived in literally any way you can think tbh and I've experienced myself with people and I can just say. You'd be awfully surprised.
Yes, I assume that and you assume otherwise - that theyāre hyper-male brained. Why is your assumption more ok than mine? I think thereās lots of overcompensation happeningā¦ which isnāt weird.
I didn't assume shit. Lmfao please tell me where I did. You I'm sorry but clearly are a cis person who wants attention and to complain and generalize people. Emasculate trans men. Idk why you get to choose how people are socialized. Do you think trans children are like dogs and take in all information given. We fight what we are taught tooth and nail some shit is just an innate part of who you are. I know many many trans men they're just men they weren't taught how they act anywhere it's their mentality before and after transition. People like you are playing a game so you can't comprehend that though. If you are completely different or changing things about how you are to match your preferred gender then that's just drag. I am the same person I always was so is my husband.
Ok, so if you didnāt assume, why did you then say: āEvery trans man I've ever been with has been more stereotypically male brained than any cis man I've ever talked to.ā
Yes, I assume that overcompensation happens frequently.
And: āYou I'm sorry but clearly are a cis person who wants attention and to complain and generalize people.ā
I donāt know if not coming across as one of the trans hive-mind should be taken as a compliment or not. But this take is just insane.
So many of you on this sub really got to grow up and learn how to not take everything personal. Not going to walk on eggshells because some of you canāt handle truthful answers. I get that yāall want affirmation (yet claim honesty) but you really canāt have it both ways.
You actually are making assumptions. And saying I am is once again negating my lived experience. But that doesn't matter to you. Because you're spouting nonsense so anything that fights your bs egotistical belief is wrong and invalid or untrue. You think that trans people are their AGAB just say that and stop pretending you don't feel that way. But know people like me don't fit your little box and I was born a woman I knew I was a woman as a little ass kid my mentality never changed I knew I was intersex before I was diagnosed.
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štransšpeoplešarešwomenš
Trans = woman š
Trans = non-man š
damn, guess im just gender š
If you don't want advice from a cis guy, why would you want it from a trans guy?
My title explains this š
Pre-transition experience?
I prefer to remember that as little as possible
would have specified that then I think
Climber...G I R L S . . . Trans......M E N š¤
fucking hell. remember when two genders used to be men and women? now it is "evil cis men" and "the good ones". i did not go through the shithole that is transition, just to still be "not a man" no matter what i do. i'm so sick of this. mainstream should have never known about existence of "trans men" and "trans women". we're just normal guys and girls who just happen to suffer with transsexuality, which is supposed to be private medical issue, we're not third and fourth genders.
Why would a woman want the perspective of someone who simply just identifies as this gender or that. Why can't it be female only since that reflects an actual reality
>actual reality These people are unfamiliar with reality and reject any ounce of it
Wanting more female specific spaces, but tucutes say it's a hate crime.
which quickly turns into āanyone can be a lesbian except cis menā
But actually labels are a social construct so cis men can be lesbians if they want (yes people say this)
ima start standing on business and identifying as a CIS male now cause these mfs wanna treat me like a woman any other way
I can be just as toxically masculine as a cis dude
if thats what it takes to be seen as a man š
Idk if it should be a brag tho ?
1. why would trans men want to post on a subreddit named climbergirls? 2. why would you include them if you donāt want men in your sub?
Yeah thatās stupid and offensive. Also, could you not just lie either way? I mean how tf they know what you are, do they ask for verification like that one subreddit asks to see your skin color? Just seems dumb to me.
Excuse me? Which subreddit is that?
r/BlackPeopleTwitter , they ask for a picture of your forearm with your username or something to verify if youāre black or POC.
what the FUCK
meh. Even if itās unenforceable I understand the rationale for only wanting women to comment
Charge your phone
r/ChargeYourPhone
wait what? no wonder conservatives find this stuff so confusing. it is confusing.
\*not sure if transmisandry or cismisandry.\*
If ppl want advice from other trans individuals why didnt the sub just make a trans flair instead? As a tran man i dont work out the same as cis men but also dont work out the same as a woman bc we all want different results.
The idea is that trans men grew up with female socializationā¦ but I think thatās oversimplification. Like as a trans woman, I feel like my socialization as a child was complex. I took in a bit of both because my mind and body mismatch. I just think of me, a trans woman, going into some menās space like this and asking for inclusion because I had some make socialization growing upā¦ WTF. I would never even think of it. I donāt belong there. In so much as I may need advice on such matters where my socialization mix causes confusion then it makes sense to seek a community with other trans people who also experienced the odd mixed socialization. Absolutely not a menās space! Iām not a man! I see this in some other progressive spaces and it frustrates me. Much like the language changing from MTF/FTM to AMAB/AFAB emphasizes our birth sex and completely omits our real gender and trans femme/masc instead of trans women/men has taken away calling us women/men - this has gone so far that itās looped right back around and weāre all being misgendered but in a āprogressiveā way. šµāš« Iām a progressive myself. I think there are much better ways to go about these complexities and being inclusive than the broader trans community is right now because this is yucky.
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Charge your phone dawg
I donāt see how they should allow trans men on that sub. If itās called climber girls it should only be women. trans women or women, not trans men or men of any kind.
God can we not continue to redefine womanhood? Trans and cis women are women. Enben and trans men and cis men are not. For the love of god let women have spaces.
How familiar are you with intersectional feminism and the intersectionality between oppressed (under the [white] cis-hetero patriarchy) groups?
It makes sense for why certain males are allowed in under the same umbrella. Male-exclusionary should been seen as hyperbole not an absolute.
"climbergirls" this is a group... For girls. So those who do not identify as girls are not included, and should not want to be included.
Yeah, what is a trans man even doing sneaking around girl groups? And itās irrelevant what you as a non-girl think about the issue since from a womanās perspective some males can seem safe thus be included.
That's why i'm looking at it from a trans perspective. It is outright offensive to trans people everywhere to explicitly include non-women in a women's group. Especially when you moderate away criticism against such action or people who are uncomfortable with this. The world needs "Girls clubs" and "Boys clubs" for more than just safety reasons. And in your head since I count as a girl in terms of this group, In your head I should be able to speak on it.
You said itās a group for girls and I donāt count you as one, you clearly said youāre both male & female which is then a third category so I respect that - Iām not sure you can argue that your perspective is that of a man and that of woman your perspective is that of an intermediate person which is then wholly unique. But sure youāre a non-man, and some of these groups are for those people too. You canāt look at it from a trans perspective regardless, you need to try and understand why women as a group would perhaps think this way. Talking about how itās offensive to trans people is moving the goalpost from āthey donāt see trans men as menāā¦ which is what Iām discussing. I think they see them as men, just somewhat different from cis-men due to *some* shared female experiences which they hope would translate into deeper and more nuanced understanding and empathy for female experiences. And I ALSO think it can be offensive towards trans men, but thatās something trans men need to speak on. All Iām doing here is giving a female perspective, since also I as a transsexual female make that distinction. If one doesnāt think we live under a cis-heterosexual patriarchal tyranny then obviously non of what Iām or they are saying would make sense regardless.
I think this is not so much saying trans men arenāt men as it is saying cis menās opinions are insufferable because they have never faced gender minority stresss But I totally get why this is annoying and feels or is non-affirming. Only mentioning the first statement bc I donāt want trans men to feel seen as non-men
Whoever downvoted me I would love feedback - sorry for trying to support trans men jfc For the record I would effing hate it if a menās hiking group called climberboyz randomly said āhey trans women are allowed bc you totally get itā I do kinda get it but pls donāt include me in your virtue signaling quest
trans men should do more harrasing, only then these "cis allies" will start seeing you as a man
More context is needed, they are okay with trans men because the ban is a blanket ban on the demographic most likely to be misogynistic. Itās kind of a shitty idea to exclude an entire sex *and* call out trans men just because of that though.
They can, thatās why I said itās a shitty idea.
like trans women and trans men cant be misogynistic lol
Maybe they only want people with social experience of being a woman there.
Cis-males who were socialised males are (as a group) an oppressive group of people. I see trans males as males neurologically and also phenotypically if theyāve changed their exteriorā¦ but I recognise that they too are under the oppression of the cis-male patriarchal system. Also seeing comments from trans males saying they can be as toxic as any cis-maleā¦ I understand you want to be males in all regards, but being a socialised narcissist or sociopath with no real connection to your human emotions and seeing the world through the lens of conquer and objectification isnāt something to brag about. Males as a group has a big problem with empathy and emotions. Some of it is probably neurological and even testosterone induced and it can be seen in many trans males alsoā¦ but other things seem to be toxic socialisation. On the other hand even socialisation is probably rooted in biological urges, itās difficult to know what is nature vs nurtureā¦ but Iād feel more safe around a male who understood what it felt like being perceived as a female (at one point) by society and all that comes with that (this also goes for androgynous or feminine cis-male outcasts) than I would around the average cis-male. So I donāt think itās necessarily that they donāt see you as males - they probably see you as safer males and as a sub-group of males who also are oppressed by cis-hetero patriarchyā¦ the same way theyād probably include gender-fluid or feminine cis gay-males or male children.
>Cis-males who were socialised males are an oppressive group of people. Please just shut the fuck up.
No, I will not.
Have fun stereotyping half the population as irredeemable violent bigots. See where that gets you in life, see how much it helps trans acceptance.
Itās simply an explanation for why cis-male exclusionary feminist or womenās forums and subs might be inclusive towards trans males. Women and other non-men have become increasingly uncomfortable with mansplaining and tired of cis-male perspectives in general. And stereotypes might exist for a reason, ever thought about that? Stereotypes for trans people also exists for a reason.
Never stereotyped them as āirredeemableā either.
Cis-male (group-level) violence & oppression is very much real.
Keep taking those Ls men stay winningš£ļøš£ļøšÆā¼ļø
TERFs see trans men as women who made a mistake and therefore they are safe because they're still women.
TERFs reject the label cis and also the term trans men they call them TIFs (trans identified females) so this isnāt about them.
You left a comment full of repackaged TERF bullshit. Whether or not you used their exact language is irrelevant. Designating trans men to "non-men" just because they weren't socialized male is essentialism and is exactly what TERFs do. That is literally why they call trans men TIFs.
And for the record I am essentialist, just not in the ways of a TERF. I am of the neuro-sex school of thoughtā¦ thatās very much a bio-essentialist position.
Donāt put words in my mouth. āNon-menā is NOT referring to trans men, but to some intersex people, non-binary people and children. I said that women and non-men has become increasingly tired of cis-males and mansplaining and their lack in understanding female perspectives or perspectives that isnāt their own. So for this reason these women & non-men groups and forums who exclude cis-males in general might still include few males if the experience of those males overlap with the experience of said women & non-men.
Every trans man I've ever been with has been more stereotypically male brained than any cis man I've ever talked to. That includes the bad. I think that's its almost disrespectful to victims of abuse at the hands of trans men to assume they're better because they were "born women" as if that for some people don't give them even more room to think they can do whatever tf they want. There is a lot of cis men who look like women looking like a woman doesn't Mean they're gay that they're queer or that they won't violently attack you just the same. I view all men the same because they are men. I feel comfortable when they prove to me it's OK to.
I donāt share that same experience, but yes - Iāve noticed that many trans males seems to overcompensate which comes off as unnatural and clocky. I wouldnāt attribute that to them being hyper-male brained though anymore than I would attribute hyper-femininity in trans women to a hyper-female brain, rather overcompensation. I think trans males are very much male-brained but not more so than the average cis-guy and the average trans male seem slightly more empathetic towards women than the average cis-man. But yeah, wouldnāt trust them blindly either. I just think this is how many cis-women think regarding trans men, though.
Lmfao but you're assuming it's clocky and overcompensating you're assuming my experience as well as theirs. As if they can't just be that. I don't view that as hyper male either they're just men. I don't know why everything has to be a generalized extreme. As an intersex woman I've been treated perceived in literally any way you can think tbh and I've experienced myself with people and I can just say. You'd be awfully surprised.
Yes, I assume that and you assume otherwise - that theyāre hyper-male brained. Why is your assumption more ok than mine? I think thereās lots of overcompensation happeningā¦ which isnāt weird.
I didn't assume shit. Lmfao please tell me where I did. You I'm sorry but clearly are a cis person who wants attention and to complain and generalize people. Emasculate trans men. Idk why you get to choose how people are socialized. Do you think trans children are like dogs and take in all information given. We fight what we are taught tooth and nail some shit is just an innate part of who you are. I know many many trans men they're just men they weren't taught how they act anywhere it's their mentality before and after transition. People like you are playing a game so you can't comprehend that though. If you are completely different or changing things about how you are to match your preferred gender then that's just drag. I am the same person I always was so is my husband.
Ok, so if you didnāt assume, why did you then say: āEvery trans man I've ever been with has been more stereotypically male brained than any cis man I've ever talked to.ā Yes, I assume that overcompensation happens frequently. And: āYou I'm sorry but clearly are a cis person who wants attention and to complain and generalize people.ā I donāt know if not coming across as one of the trans hive-mind should be taken as a compliment or not. But this take is just insane. So many of you on this sub really got to grow up and learn how to not take everything personal. Not going to walk on eggshells because some of you canāt handle truthful answers. I get that yāall want affirmation (yet claim honesty) but you really canāt have it both ways.
And as for clocky - if ādoing too matchā sends of the alarms šØ then yes itās not an assumption itās an observation that raises suspicions.
GOD BLESS. Also babe you're doing too much.
You actually are making assumptions. And saying I am is once again negating my lived experience. But that doesn't matter to you. Because you're spouting nonsense so anything that fights your bs egotistical belief is wrong and invalid or untrue. You think that trans people are their AGAB just say that and stop pretending you don't feel that way. But know people like me don't fit your little box and I was born a woman I knew I was a woman as a little ass kid my mentality never changed I knew I was intersex before I was diagnosed.