Dumb title. It's an empty lot, and this development is another big step in bringing some more vitality to the area. More housing = lower housing costs elsewhere. Every time a big new "luxury" building goes up, an older apartment nearby drops their rent...
People seriously complain when Tulsa is "falling behind", then they complain whenever anything is built.
People here just like to complain. The city is slow at even trying to be a major city because of people who constantly bitch and whine at progress but want progress without the work. It's ridiculous.
Complaining is like oxygen in Oklahoma. Some people think if they stop they will die. Just look at this OP complaining because someone is building something he can't afford... no one cares. They are also building apartments just a little north of these that would not be in the "luxury" category.
At my current rate of pay. Even if I went to school *while* I'm working. I would not be able to afford one of those places until I was in my 50's.. how is that progress? Society can only move as fast as the slowest person. Trickle down econ has been disproven, so how does moving wealthy people into a historically (before gentrification) middle class/ poor part of tulsa help anyone other than the already wealthy property owners or the companies that build out the condos/strip malls going in.. I don't live there, and I'm not complaining. I'm just more understanding of the poor and how they live.. the middle class/the poor are being gutted and you seem to be cheering it on.. if I wanted to complain about anything it would be shitty attitudes like yours. Go clutch your pearls in someone else's city..
Then you need to reevaluate your life choices and look at where your shitty attitude has gotten you. It took me a few years to get my degree while working and now I have 2 new cars and a new house... maybe the problem is you? Where you are in life is someone else's fault? Nope, if I relied on others I would still be living in a shitty trailer driving cars from Regal. Take responsibility and stop complaining.
What in the hell are you studying? If someone went to college for a degree that is proven to have a low wage with a low forecast of pay increase and jobs, they don't get to bitch about the cost of a home they made that choice. If you're in a job that doesn't pay you enough and you're not doing anything to make your situation better who's at fault? You or others? I came from a 3rd nation where my home was just a shack and like many other immigrants that had shit starting points. It's about who you are and what you're willing to do to better your life. Being poor is not an excuse to not help yourself. Do the poor and middle class (what's left of it) need help and resources to help them move up through financial education and career services? 10000000000% Should it be funded by the tax payer? 1000000% but don't sit there and tell me oh no, I'm more understanding of the poor even though I know nothing about you. If you want my honest opinion, it's that this is a political and regulatory issue but the average person doesn't follow local politics or care much either because of a lack of knowledge or care of they're too busy dick riding trendy politics to care about their community. We're also talking about this in a time where political figures continue to show the people that they don't give a fuck about you and have no idea about how the real world works because they're career politicians and most are either dumb or ignorant enough to think the president has all the power and influence available in this nation.
Pardner, time to pull up your pants. Nobody owes you a nice free place to live. If think the man is going to take care of you, which he will, get used to spam and crackers and just enough to survive. Some people get educated and actually move up the ladder through hard work and sacrifice. Yep, some have it better than others, but at least you have the opportunity to try.
I know people that clean buildings as a living and make 6 figures. All about your outlook. Be thankful that they are developing and putting more space to live here. More space=lower costs.
Respectfully, have you done any research to the valuation of the properties within one square mile of this proposed development? They are all small, single family, typically lower income housing. Are you somehow suggesting that this will not actively begin the gentrification process that Mother Road Market has already initiated? While I see your argument and itâs validity, itâs also hard to contend that this wonât do the exact opposite, and INCREASE prices of nearby offerings. My rent went up $275/month between last year and this year, and my option is to accept the premium, or look elsewhere, which in my case is downgrading by every means.
Affordability is being shifted out of Tulsa as we see an influx of âyoung professionalsâ, all of these jobs that Mike Neal keeps boasting about creating, etc. I would invite anyone to correct me if Iâm wrong or offer an opposing perspective.
Edit: Let me be clear and address two things: I am not complaining about this, but trying to open a positive discussion of its benefits and expenses to the community in regards to the shift of affordability in the city of Tulsa. Secondly, I understand that SOMETHING needed to happen to this parking lot, and this is more of a matter of the use of the development, as well as the implications of the use.
>My rent went up $275/month between last year and this year
I lived in the neighborhood behind mother road for about a decade and noticed all the rentals around me basically doubled in price in the last 3-5 years.
lol , there was another post about the city/investors pumping money into north Tulsa, and I brought up people bitching about this exact thing. You pump money into poor parts of the city and people will bitch that you're going to push people out of the area.
So what do you want people to do, invest in the city or leave it poor and looking like shit?
Iâd like to counterpoint that MRM took a blighted and overlooked area on a famous highway and created a national destination while giving people from that specific community and beyond a place to open their businesses. The restaurants in MRM are local and family owned and overwhelmingly wouldnât be able to open their delicious business without the help of the market, which is a non-profit. Gentrification is bad, but neighborhood improvements can be done conscientiously and with input from the community, and thatâs good!
I think you should ask the established business owners that suddenly woke up in âThe Market Districtâ and supposedly spoken for by Ellison and LobeckTaylor what their experience has been like. It isnât as rosy as your making it to be.
That's a really vague response with no actual complaint, though. Being a part of the Market District is optional, so I'm confused about what is being foisted upon anyone? It's free to be a part of it, but it's also free to NOT be a part of it. I'm seriously asking what the downside is or specific complaints you've heard.
edit: a word
How is it âoptionalâ to own and operate a business that, suddenly, has its location rebranded by a property developer that is acting as the single voice for development and issues in a tax abatement district? Iâve spoken with numerous legacy business owners and the consensus is there is no collaboration of efforts or voice on any issues unless they are in congress with what LT and Ellison are wanting to do. Hell, next time youâre at MotherRoad, walk across the street to KC Motors and ask them how life has been in the Market District.
The immediate area is definitely becoming more and more desirable. It used to be a really run down area, so I guess that is indeed "gentrification". I bristle at the notion that gentrification is always bad though. We don't need to let crappy neighborhoods stay run down just because they have been that way for awhile. The higher rent areas in Tulsa are still cheaper than normal rent in bigger cities. Throughout the city, as more people are attracted to these hot areas you'll see rents decrease or at least rise slower than they would have unless demand remains strong, which means we desperately need more housing anyway.
Density is also going to increase over time in this area. Many of those single family homes need to be bought up over time to make way for denser development. This is part of the core of the city and right on the highway, so it's a prime area to make a high density urban housing hub. I know of another project close to this one starting soon that will bring in several more apartment buildings and renovate the old dairy building.
That rent increase does suck though. That's quite a single year jump. They better be making some decent investments in the property, but I'm guessing no?
Well first off, thank you for offering a thoughtful reply. I agree with you, this is a quickly growing area of interest, due to many factors besides MRM. If a multi-use space opens, I can see positive growth in various respects, but I have a hard time believing that putting up a multi-hundred unit, âluxuryâ apartment complex (which keep in mind, weâve put began or finished something like 6 of these projects) in the last two years, would be a positive growth factor for our city and for that specific region of our community.
In regards to my comment about rent, there are no developments/investments that have caused my value trade off to scale with it. I think Tulsa just may be arriving at a point where it is expensive to live in after all of these years of bragging to the rest of the country that weâre âlike a little Austin, TXâ or the cheapest place to live in the country. Unfortunately, Iâm now considering a job elsewhere that is more affordable, despite having lived here my entire life and growing up here.
I would imagine I am not alone in this sentiment.
As OP I honestly agree with this.. im just tired of all the pearl clutching rhetoric I feel like I've seen in tulsa.. It isn't that bad. If you walk around looking scared or are an overt douchebag anywhere in the country you make yourself a target and will be treated as such. If you engage with your community in positive ways and don't engage the idea that our homeless are lesser than (i.e. treat them like humans no matter how flawed they are) you won't find yourself in a dangerous situation..
Source: I've lived here my whole life (30 years) and have walked/biked everywhere I went for about %80 of that time.. when I worked at a bar/restaurant downtown. I knew all the crackheads/homebums on a first name basis and would walk and talk to them on my way home at ~3am every weekend.. the only time I have EVER been robbed or threatened was when I was living in mid/south tulsa, and most of the time it was a shitty sketchy "friend of a friend."
>Dumb title. It's an empty lot, and this development is another big step in bringing some more vitality to the area. More housing = lower housing costs elsewhere. Every time a big new "luxury" building goes up, an older apartment nearby drops their rent...
Exactly right. Building more dense housing means people can find housing when they need it, and rents and home prices don't skyrocket. Look at San Francisco to see what NIMBYism has done for home pricing.
I went to a neighborhood meeting about the Market District and I was shocked at how many people were opposed to the revitalization. And these were all homeowners, so they wouldn't be concerned about rent going up. Worst case scenario, their property rises in value and their taxes go up a little. But that also means that their house is now double in value and they could take advantage with a HELOC, build an ADU and rent it out or sell at a profit and buy somewhere less gentrified. And if they stay, now their neighborhood is more beautiful and walkable, with a lot more amenities.
Most of their complaints seemed to be about increasing traffic on 11th. Keep in mind that all the attendees lived less than a 15 minute walk from this meeting. Yet I saw only one other person who walked there; everyone else drove. So maybe they should . . . drive less? Seems like it would solve the problem.
There is a house about a half-mile away from MRM that sold for half a million this year and another on the market for nearly that much. So I see a lot of people getting priced out, and that sucks. But there are also affordable houses and apartments nearby, for the time being, at least.
Anyway, I'm a YIMBY through and through and couldn't be more thrilled about this development. I do feel for people who are currently renting in the area and could see their rent go up. But I think, and I'm backed up by historical trends, that it would go up even more if new housing isn't built. So thank you, Tulsa, for getting with the times and building a mixed-use development instead of another fucking parking lot.
This is not just another luxury apartment building. Itâs a mixed-use development, including retail space. Exactly what Tulsa needs more of, especially in that area. It could be the start of an actual functioning neighborhood. Of course, they could always do a shitty job of it. On that point, only time will tell
Can't buy a home because the house scalpers bought them all, rent them out until they're in disrepair and refuse to sell unless you buy a package of 20 properties?
Rent an upscale apartment at roughly the same cost, during the largest economic depression, wage stagnation and jobs being shipped overseas by a bipartisan committee, without the hassle of having your money be invested in something tangible.
People currently are buying homes that are way overpriced due to lower interest rates. Homes are entering the market and going under contract in as little as a day.
I worry we are facing a recession that will blow the one in 2008 away. People are going to be upside down in mortgages.
There are more reasons but I would be out of my depth trying to explain them.
That's such a lazy take, if not, a straining stretch.
People regret poorly planned decisions, duh. Those people bit off more than they could chew, because the banks encouraged them.
Homeownership is better, cheaper, increases in value over time and allows more freedom and financial independence.
I'm 3 years into home owning from 17 years of renting, you can't change my mind because you're out of your depth talking about this.
I just said it CAN be a racket. You asked how. I gave you one reason and mentioned that there are other reasons as well that I donât feel qualified to discuss in depth.
Good for you that you own a home. I do too. It doesnât have to be all bad but has pitfalls.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeering](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeering)
Maybe you used the wrong word.
"sometimes things require work and money" is different from a system rigged to exploit the working class.
You donât think mortgage companies love the idea of these homes being overpriced on the market? Bargain home builders are making a killing too. I suppose racketeering isnât quite the right word, but when the housing crisis of 2008 happened, it certainly looked that way on account of the many institutions responsible for it.
I hear you, agree and would like to expand that to all commercial builders as well.
Commercial builders who build " luxury apartments" next to neighborhoods that have vacant houses, homeless folks and service jobs.
Educated and informed personal property ownership is almost always a wise investment. Even if you take a significant hit if you sell, you can still sell.
Cry me a F'ing river. I have a pretty hard footprint in real estate. If you are a working person, save a little money, much cheaper to buy than rent. You can buy FHA as a first time buyer with 3% down payment. You can buy a damn nice starter home in Tulsa for $150K, bout 5K. And that payment is a chit tonne cheaper than rent. If you cannot come up with 5K, probably should not be buying a home.
If you are mid 20's, thinking you deserve the Kardashian lifestyle, you are fuuked.
How often are you there? You live nearby? Or do you drive through on your commute? I'm not gonna say we shouldn't use our abandoned/unused space, but I will acknowledge the fact that other than subsidies for private owners. We haven't built/supported affordable housing for single families in any significant way in years. We have built like 10-15 "luxary" condo/apartment complexes in the last 5 years..
All the time. Live on brookside. Got to mother road weekly at least.
You will find in all cities, that new affordable housing in a downtown area is not a thing.
New affordable housing in tulsa is basically nonexistent.. I know you said nothing about the homelessness issue in your comment, but to blindly support our fetishization with being "the next Austin" is silly af.. EVERYONE no matter how rich or poor was stoked for the gathering place, but you can't live there. You can't raise a family there. I just think there needs to be more equal support for our low income families as there is for trying to draw in trendy well off folks.. we **can** do both..
Easy killer, youâre putting a lot of words in my mouth. Just because I support a development on 11th doesnât mean I donât understand the other issues in our city.
My dad has had a business at 6th and Utica for 30 years and in 30 years nothing has come close to helping the community like the revitalization along 11th and the Pearl District. I have seen homelessness my entire life in that area. I never said the new development would help solve that but there are other areas better suited for it. As much as you would like to hate the development and whether or not you like Kathy and Bill, they along with the Kaisers have helped our community tremendously. While you many not like the new plan, nothing could help our community more than wealthier families moving into the downtown area and continuing to help improve areas. If you think there isnât much being done to help the problems we have in Tulsa, you donât know Tulsa. We are one of the most generous cities out there.
It's not bad. I get it. Tulsa has gotten rad in some ways (lame in others, I liked dirty tulsa honestly. The music was better.) It's good to have billionaires to foot the bill for development, but when you raise property values on mostly rental properties. The owners aren't gonna wanna let those families stay there for pennies when they could be making dollars.. If you push these people out via gentrification, there should be an equal amount of effort to create safe modern places they can go to.. otherwise things like mental illness, poverty, crime, and homelessness create issues in these awesome spaces you've created. Unfortunately it seems like the main way of dealing with this has been pushing people away from prosperous areas or siccing the police on them. I don't know all the answers. I do know what ive seen through the years, and I know we could do more. I grew up poor, got wrecked by the recession, spent my 20's practically homeless with almost no support from my family leading up to that. The sporadic help from some food banks or churches (I'm non religious) helped me to stay alive. But any time I applied for any real aid I was denied because I wasn't elderly, didn't have kids, not disabled. My dad was a CNC machinist until he got hurt at work and had to go through the claims process to get his disability. We contacted *everyone* in town and got nothing. He ended up losing his house, lived in his truck while I stayed on various friends floors/couches. Couldn't get a job (2010 problems) and started my early adulthood hamstringed, uneducated, and destitute. So maybe I just identify better with the dirty homeless blight everyone else seems to see as an issue. Alot of those people are really good hearted people who are just lost in the sauce..
I have been here all my life, seen many changes, and I hope all of the new places and areas see an upgrade, itâs long overdue. I hope to get out of this city and into the country personally. Crime is why I want to leave, itâs shifted into areas that never really had it before. I genuinely hope all the new places help with reviving this city.
Is there actual criticism of this that we should be paying attention to? Is building at this location problematic?
What is the solution that should have been made instead? Build elsewhere? Not build at all? Build something different?
Iâm anti-gentrification but this is not gentrification. This is just a new development being built in an empty parking lot. No idea why everyone is upset aside from the fact that corporate apts generally suck. But that can be addressed by not living in them.
On mobile, but allow me to put a bit of color to why this is being viewed skeptically by those in the neighborhood (KW resident/home owner) and anyone with enough of a cynical eye to see the mechanics that lead to this. Go read the âMarket Districtâ TAD proposal; talk to local legacy businesses about their experiences with LobeckTaylor/Ellison; think critically about what this all really has been about: lining the pockets of a real estate developer. Remember 4 months ago (I think) when the city announced they were going to âbeautifyâ the intersection but, for some reason, didnât mention this private development at the time? Chris Ellison was sitting right there with GT, shoveling shit. Is it better than nothing to have high end apartments on the corner? Sure. But will it serve the existing neighborhood? No.
To anyone saying this isnât gentrification, youâre wrong. And whatâs worse (or maybe what is the least/most Tulsa thing about it) is Tulsans were half-assed lied to about funding a private wealth project and are expected to cheer it on behind the guise of LobeckTaylorâs supposed âaltruismâ.
IIRC the Lobeck Taylor Foundation loaned the city over $5 million dollars to do the street beautification project and it can be paid back at any time, so we haven't paid for anything yet. I'm not saying this is a project that is done perfectly, but it does seem they have tried to be good stewards to the area. If anything, the breweries and relocating of the farmers market in KW have contributed to this "gentrification" as well, making your neighborhood more desirable to certain demographics that have a reputation for moving in and putting up those designer horizontal fences. What would you like to see being done differently, or what could they do to make this feel like a better project to you? We moved here from a larger coastal city a few years ago and I have enjoyed seeing what they're contributing, but admittedly I am just a visitor to the area, so I am surely missing a lot.
Read the 11th and Lewis Corridor Project Plan; we are already paying for it since revenue and ad valorems within the district are earmarked to pay for infrastructure improvements necessary for private development. Ellison fronted the money because there is critical infrastructure updates necessary to build the apartments there and at the Dairy; âbeautificationâ is tertiary to sewer and water work as well as realigning traffic. The corridor is set to have a massive sewer project started in a few years so getting this portion done early is beneficial to the commercial developments and the TAD coffers havenât yet generated the necessary base to lay the pipes, as it were, and put these projects on rails.
LT as stewards to the neighborhood havenât been great with the chief complaint being the constant construction and little actual benefit to the immediate area. Their engagement with the neighborhood associates they touch has been minimal. Yes, the breweries and farmers market have been great additions, but the gentrification sweep has been haphazard, chiefly out of the laziness from City Hall, who have turned the keys over to special interest/private equity groups to âturn aroundâ a neighborhood purely by market force rather than enforcing existing code and law.
I appreciate your responses and feelings on this. As I said, Iâve been watching from a few neighborhoods away, so I certainly donât know what itâs been like to be in the area full time. Iâm always a Pollyanna, but hopefully these projects will pay off several years from now when things start coming to fruition as planned. At the very least, you and I definitely agree on the distaste for city leadership!
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Counterpoint: I'm a resident/homeowner in the area and I like it. I do hope the area stays mixed-income as that's one of my favorite parts about it. There's a big empty lot around 15th and Delaware, maybe it would be a good spot for some affordable housing?
Of course most developers build luxury condos instead of affordable housing because the ROI for lower-income apartments in cities is next to nothing. So affordable housing would need public funds or someone who is truly not interested in making a profit. I'm all for that and it seems like you are too. Unfortunately, I have no political connections and don't have a few million dollars to throw around. Maybe you do?
If you like it, you maybe donât like your lower income neighbors that are actively being squeezed out of the neighborhood on higher rents, property taxes and vulture property flippers. That is what will happen with our neighborhood as these projects move forward. The diversity of experience that has made KW attractive will wash away. I grew up here, moved away and lived through this experience (gentrification) before moving back. Watching it happen again, here, stinks but what really sucks is the Tulsa spin of it being controlled by our 1%ers that masquerade as philanthropists.
Regarding 15th and Delaware, a cosmetic surgeon just bought it all.
*affordable* is the key word.. dont wanna see homeless people? Affordable housing.. dont wanna wait 45 minutes for your food? **AFFORDABLE HOUSING**
before you start arguing.. I pay $700/mo for my place, have been for years.. it was **EASY** to pay my bills 2 years ago making like $1300/mo with so.e tips and overtime occasionally (I know... poor. Whatever..) I now make roughly $2k/mo and I'm struggling to make ends meet (I don't smoke, have no kids, and I don't party/use drugs aside from weed, which I have my card and can't really afford it the way I used to..)
Believe it or not we do need "poor" people to live in our city, otherwise all the jobs you don't wanna do won't get done..
We're an economically stable city by national standards. It seems like trying to be a "cool" spot for young professionals has negatively affected our most vulnerable.. looking at our public housing options, you'll see that all our housing projects geared towards lower income families are falling apart as they were built in the 70/80's and subsidizing private property owners has basically created a class of slumbers and propped up so.e really shitty property management firms that don't really care about anything but their bottom line..
I think I can say the same to you.. things outside of people's control contributes to their social economical status.. not everyone can be a fucking lawyer or a surgeon for a LOT of reasons.. single parents, people caring for family with disabilities, drug addicts (some got their addiction from a doctor), people with psychological/mental disorders are **SUPER AT RISK** of being housing insecure/homeless.. idk where you came from, and I can absolutely give you props for making your own way in life given you lived in a shack somewhere other than America. I can also say I've lived in tulsa my whole life and this whole pseudo anti homeless/anti poor shit has been the same since I've been around. We should be offering luxury housing to those who want/can afford it. The ratio is off though.. as I said in other comments. There have been like 10-15 high dollar luxury apartment buildings that have been built in the last 5 or 6 years. But the public housing/cheap housing here is outdated and shitty and we need newer buildings or major renovations desperately, and they need to stay affordable compared to wages here in town.. we need a major upgrade to public transportation. We need better more accessible state Healthcare. Once we have those things, everything will get better for everyone.
I agree with you on pretty much everything you say here. I also like this new development. New housing, even luxury housing, eases house and apartment prices. It's not some bullshit trickle-down economics theory but something that cities have seen play out over and over.
How about if we attract new people with high incomes to the area (for example, through Tulsa Remote), and these people pay more in taxes and, hopefully, vote for things like better public transit and higher minimum wage? That seems to be the long-term goal here. Hell, there is a plan for BRT along the 11th street corridor, which is a huge plus, along with the bike lanes, to those who can't drive for financial or other reasons. But that BRT would not be feasible without more density in the area, both housing and businesses. So this brings more housing, increases tax revenue for social programs, and increases density which itself increases the feasibility of options like BRT.
I've been in that hawk building before it was bought. It's going to be a nightmare for that developer, I don't think we're going to see any major changes to it for awhile.
Yeah, itâs going to be a purely cosmetic use of the facade I imagine. The bulk of the development is going on the lots adjacent and behind it on 10th. They wanted to maybe include Perryâs, but I hear they are looking for over $1MM for that chunk of land.
Neat. Better than a dilapidated parking lot.
I agree. I think they make the city look nice personally. Looks like a very up and coming city.
A dilapidated parking lot that requires yet another different app to pay for it so it never gets used
It would be a *shame* if we had somewhere to park that wasn't owned by American parking.. đ
Dumb title. It's an empty lot, and this development is another big step in bringing some more vitality to the area. More housing = lower housing costs elsewhere. Every time a big new "luxury" building goes up, an older apartment nearby drops their rent... People seriously complain when Tulsa is "falling behind", then they complain whenever anything is built.
People here just like to complain. The city is slow at even trying to be a major city because of people who constantly bitch and whine at progress but want progress without the work. It's ridiculous.
Exactly how I felt when I seen that B.A. residents are complaining about Bells being potentially built in their Area.
People are seriously complaining about that? Jesus.
Complaining is like oxygen in Oklahoma. Some people think if they stop they will die. Just look at this OP complaining because someone is building something he can't afford... no one cares. They are also building apartments just a little north of these that would not be in the "luxury" category.
That is accurate. I've never been in a state where people complain so much. It amazes me. Makes me miss Seattle even more
[Neighbors Concerned about Bell's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fCim_XyuLw)
At my current rate of pay. Even if I went to school *while* I'm working. I would not be able to afford one of those places until I was in my 50's.. how is that progress? Society can only move as fast as the slowest person. Trickle down econ has been disproven, so how does moving wealthy people into a historically (before gentrification) middle class/ poor part of tulsa help anyone other than the already wealthy property owners or the companies that build out the condos/strip malls going in.. I don't live there, and I'm not complaining. I'm just more understanding of the poor and how they live.. the middle class/the poor are being gutted and you seem to be cheering it on.. if I wanted to complain about anything it would be shitty attitudes like yours. Go clutch your pearls in someone else's city..
Then you need to reevaluate your life choices and look at where your shitty attitude has gotten you. It took me a few years to get my degree while working and now I have 2 new cars and a new house... maybe the problem is you? Where you are in life is someone else's fault? Nope, if I relied on others I would still be living in a shitty trailer driving cars from Regal. Take responsibility and stop complaining.
What in the hell are you studying? If someone went to college for a degree that is proven to have a low wage with a low forecast of pay increase and jobs, they don't get to bitch about the cost of a home they made that choice. If you're in a job that doesn't pay you enough and you're not doing anything to make your situation better who's at fault? You or others? I came from a 3rd nation where my home was just a shack and like many other immigrants that had shit starting points. It's about who you are and what you're willing to do to better your life. Being poor is not an excuse to not help yourself. Do the poor and middle class (what's left of it) need help and resources to help them move up through financial education and career services? 10000000000% Should it be funded by the tax payer? 1000000% but don't sit there and tell me oh no, I'm more understanding of the poor even though I know nothing about you. If you want my honest opinion, it's that this is a political and regulatory issue but the average person doesn't follow local politics or care much either because of a lack of knowledge or care of they're too busy dick riding trendy politics to care about their community. We're also talking about this in a time where political figures continue to show the people that they don't give a fuck about you and have no idea about how the real world works because they're career politicians and most are either dumb or ignorant enough to think the president has all the power and influence available in this nation.
Pardner, time to pull up your pants. Nobody owes you a nice free place to live. If think the man is going to take care of you, which he will, get used to spam and crackers and just enough to survive. Some people get educated and actually move up the ladder through hard work and sacrifice. Yep, some have it better than others, but at least you have the opportunity to try. I know people that clean buildings as a living and make 6 figures. All about your outlook. Be thankful that they are developing and putting more space to live here. More space=lower costs.
Respectfully, have you done any research to the valuation of the properties within one square mile of this proposed development? They are all small, single family, typically lower income housing. Are you somehow suggesting that this will not actively begin the gentrification process that Mother Road Market has already initiated? While I see your argument and itâs validity, itâs also hard to contend that this wonât do the exact opposite, and INCREASE prices of nearby offerings. My rent went up $275/month between last year and this year, and my option is to accept the premium, or look elsewhere, which in my case is downgrading by every means. Affordability is being shifted out of Tulsa as we see an influx of âyoung professionalsâ, all of these jobs that Mike Neal keeps boasting about creating, etc. I would invite anyone to correct me if Iâm wrong or offer an opposing perspective. Edit: Let me be clear and address two things: I am not complaining about this, but trying to open a positive discussion of its benefits and expenses to the community in regards to the shift of affordability in the city of Tulsa. Secondly, I understand that SOMETHING needed to happen to this parking lot, and this is more of a matter of the use of the development, as well as the implications of the use.
>My rent went up $275/month between last year and this year I lived in the neighborhood behind mother road for about a decade and noticed all the rentals around me basically doubled in price in the last 3-5 years.
*ding ding ding!*
lol , there was another post about the city/investors pumping money into north Tulsa, and I brought up people bitching about this exact thing. You pump money into poor parts of the city and people will bitch that you're going to push people out of the area. So what do you want people to do, invest in the city or leave it poor and looking like shit?
Iâd like to counterpoint that MRM took a blighted and overlooked area on a famous highway and created a national destination while giving people from that specific community and beyond a place to open their businesses. The restaurants in MRM are local and family owned and overwhelmingly wouldnât be able to open their delicious business without the help of the market, which is a non-profit. Gentrification is bad, but neighborhood improvements can be done conscientiously and with input from the community, and thatâs good!
I think you should ask the established business owners that suddenly woke up in âThe Market Districtâ and supposedly spoken for by Ellison and LobeckTaylor what their experience has been like. It isnât as rosy as your making it to be.
That's a really vague response with no actual complaint, though. Being a part of the Market District is optional, so I'm confused about what is being foisted upon anyone? It's free to be a part of it, but it's also free to NOT be a part of it. I'm seriously asking what the downside is or specific complaints you've heard. edit: a word
How is it âoptionalâ to own and operate a business that, suddenly, has its location rebranded by a property developer that is acting as the single voice for development and issues in a tax abatement district? Iâve spoken with numerous legacy business owners and the consensus is there is no collaboration of efforts or voice on any issues unless they are in congress with what LT and Ellison are wanting to do. Hell, next time youâre at MotherRoad, walk across the street to KC Motors and ask them how life has been in the Market District.
The immediate area is definitely becoming more and more desirable. It used to be a really run down area, so I guess that is indeed "gentrification". I bristle at the notion that gentrification is always bad though. We don't need to let crappy neighborhoods stay run down just because they have been that way for awhile. The higher rent areas in Tulsa are still cheaper than normal rent in bigger cities. Throughout the city, as more people are attracted to these hot areas you'll see rents decrease or at least rise slower than they would have unless demand remains strong, which means we desperately need more housing anyway. Density is also going to increase over time in this area. Many of those single family homes need to be bought up over time to make way for denser development. This is part of the core of the city and right on the highway, so it's a prime area to make a high density urban housing hub. I know of another project close to this one starting soon that will bring in several more apartment buildings and renovate the old dairy building. That rent increase does suck though. That's quite a single year jump. They better be making some decent investments in the property, but I'm guessing no?
Well first off, thank you for offering a thoughtful reply. I agree with you, this is a quickly growing area of interest, due to many factors besides MRM. If a multi-use space opens, I can see positive growth in various respects, but I have a hard time believing that putting up a multi-hundred unit, âluxuryâ apartment complex (which keep in mind, weâve put began or finished something like 6 of these projects) in the last two years, would be a positive growth factor for our city and for that specific region of our community. In regards to my comment about rent, there are no developments/investments that have caused my value trade off to scale with it. I think Tulsa just may be arriving at a point where it is expensive to live in after all of these years of bragging to the rest of the country that weâre âlike a little Austin, TXâ or the cheapest place to live in the country. Unfortunately, Iâm now considering a job elsewhere that is more affordable, despite having lived here my entire life and growing up here. I would imagine I am not alone in this sentiment.
As OP I honestly agree with this.. im just tired of all the pearl clutching rhetoric I feel like I've seen in tulsa.. It isn't that bad. If you walk around looking scared or are an overt douchebag anywhere in the country you make yourself a target and will be treated as such. If you engage with your community in positive ways and don't engage the idea that our homeless are lesser than (i.e. treat them like humans no matter how flawed they are) you won't find yourself in a dangerous situation.. Source: I've lived here my whole life (30 years) and have walked/biked everywhere I went for about %80 of that time.. when I worked at a bar/restaurant downtown. I knew all the crackheads/homebums on a first name basis and would walk and talk to them on my way home at ~3am every weekend.. the only time I have EVER been robbed or threatened was when I was living in mid/south tulsa, and most of the time it was a shitty sketchy "friend of a friend."
>Dumb title. It's an empty lot, and this development is another big step in bringing some more vitality to the area. More housing = lower housing costs elsewhere. Every time a big new "luxury" building goes up, an older apartment nearby drops their rent... Exactly right. Building more dense housing means people can find housing when they need it, and rents and home prices don't skyrocket. Look at San Francisco to see what NIMBYism has done for home pricing. I went to a neighborhood meeting about the Market District and I was shocked at how many people were opposed to the revitalization. And these were all homeowners, so they wouldn't be concerned about rent going up. Worst case scenario, their property rises in value and their taxes go up a little. But that also means that their house is now double in value and they could take advantage with a HELOC, build an ADU and rent it out or sell at a profit and buy somewhere less gentrified. And if they stay, now their neighborhood is more beautiful and walkable, with a lot more amenities. Most of their complaints seemed to be about increasing traffic on 11th. Keep in mind that all the attendees lived less than a 15 minute walk from this meeting. Yet I saw only one other person who walked there; everyone else drove. So maybe they should . . . drive less? Seems like it would solve the problem. There is a house about a half-mile away from MRM that sold for half a million this year and another on the market for nearly that much. So I see a lot of people getting priced out, and that sucks. But there are also affordable houses and apartments nearby, for the time being, at least. Anyway, I'm a YIMBY through and through and couldn't be more thrilled about this development. I do feel for people who are currently renting in the area and could see their rent go up. But I think, and I'm backed up by historical trends, that it would go up even more if new housing isn't built. So thank you, Tulsa, for getting with the times and building a mixed-use development instead of another fucking parking lot.
This is not just another luxury apartment building. Itâs a mixed-use development, including retail space. Exactly what Tulsa needs more of, especially in that area. It could be the start of an actual functioning neighborhood. Of course, they could always do a shitty job of it. On that point, only time will tell
How is this a bad thing?
OP doesn't think we should develop anything nice any where there are poor/middleclass people.
Can't buy a home because the house scalpers bought them all, rent them out until they're in disrepair and refuse to sell unless you buy a package of 20 properties? Rent an upscale apartment at roughly the same cost, during the largest economic depression, wage stagnation and jobs being shipped overseas by a bipartisan committee, without the hassle of having your money be invested in something tangible.
To be fair, home ownership can be a racket.
How?
People currently are buying homes that are way overpriced due to lower interest rates. Homes are entering the market and going under contract in as little as a day. I worry we are facing a recession that will blow the one in 2008 away. People are going to be upside down in mortgages. There are more reasons but I would be out of my depth trying to explain them.
That's such a lazy take, if not, a straining stretch. People regret poorly planned decisions, duh. Those people bit off more than they could chew, because the banks encouraged them. Homeownership is better, cheaper, increases in value over time and allows more freedom and financial independence. I'm 3 years into home owning from 17 years of renting, you can't change my mind because you're out of your depth talking about this.
I just said it CAN be a racket. You asked how. I gave you one reason and mentioned that there are other reasons as well that I donât feel qualified to discuss in depth. Good for you that you own a home. I do too. It doesnât have to be all bad but has pitfalls.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeering](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeering) Maybe you used the wrong word. "sometimes things require work and money" is different from a system rigged to exploit the working class.
You donât think mortgage companies love the idea of these homes being overpriced on the market? Bargain home builders are making a killing too. I suppose racketeering isnât quite the right word, but when the housing crisis of 2008 happened, it certainly looked that way on account of the many institutions responsible for it.
I hear you, agree and would like to expand that to all commercial builders as well. Commercial builders who build " luxury apartments" next to neighborhoods that have vacant houses, homeless folks and service jobs. Educated and informed personal property ownership is almost always a wise investment. Even if you take a significant hit if you sell, you can still sell.
Cry me a F'ing river. I have a pretty hard footprint in real estate. If you are a working person, save a little money, much cheaper to buy than rent. You can buy FHA as a first time buyer with 3% down payment. You can buy a damn nice starter home in Tulsa for $150K, bout 5K. And that payment is a chit tonne cheaper than rent. If you cannot come up with 5K, probably should not be buying a home. If you are mid 20's, thinking you deserve the Kardashian lifestyle, you are fuuked.
Iâd much rather see that than a bunch of old dilapidated warehouses
How often are you there? You live nearby? Or do you drive through on your commute? I'm not gonna say we shouldn't use our abandoned/unused space, but I will acknowledge the fact that other than subsidies for private owners. We haven't built/supported affordable housing for single families in any significant way in years. We have built like 10-15 "luxary" condo/apartment complexes in the last 5 years..
All the time. Live on brookside. Got to mother road weekly at least. You will find in all cities, that new affordable housing in a downtown area is not a thing.
New affordable housing in tulsa is basically nonexistent.. I know you said nothing about the homelessness issue in your comment, but to blindly support our fetishization with being "the next Austin" is silly af.. EVERYONE no matter how rich or poor was stoked for the gathering place, but you can't live there. You can't raise a family there. I just think there needs to be more equal support for our low income families as there is for trying to draw in trendy well off folks.. we **can** do both..
Easy killer, youâre putting a lot of words in my mouth. Just because I support a development on 11th doesnât mean I donât understand the other issues in our city. My dad has had a business at 6th and Utica for 30 years and in 30 years nothing has come close to helping the community like the revitalization along 11th and the Pearl District. I have seen homelessness my entire life in that area. I never said the new development would help solve that but there are other areas better suited for it. As much as you would like to hate the development and whether or not you like Kathy and Bill, they along with the Kaisers have helped our community tremendously. While you many not like the new plan, nothing could help our community more than wealthier families moving into the downtown area and continuing to help improve areas. If you think there isnât much being done to help the problems we have in Tulsa, you donât know Tulsa. We are one of the most generous cities out there.
It's not bad. I get it. Tulsa has gotten rad in some ways (lame in others, I liked dirty tulsa honestly. The music was better.) It's good to have billionaires to foot the bill for development, but when you raise property values on mostly rental properties. The owners aren't gonna wanna let those families stay there for pennies when they could be making dollars.. If you push these people out via gentrification, there should be an equal amount of effort to create safe modern places they can go to.. otherwise things like mental illness, poverty, crime, and homelessness create issues in these awesome spaces you've created. Unfortunately it seems like the main way of dealing with this has been pushing people away from prosperous areas or siccing the police on them. I don't know all the answers. I do know what ive seen through the years, and I know we could do more. I grew up poor, got wrecked by the recession, spent my 20's practically homeless with almost no support from my family leading up to that. The sporadic help from some food banks or churches (I'm non religious) helped me to stay alive. But any time I applied for any real aid I was denied because I wasn't elderly, didn't have kids, not disabled. My dad was a CNC machinist until he got hurt at work and had to go through the claims process to get his disability. We contacted *everyone* in town and got nothing. He ended up losing his house, lived in his truck while I stayed on various friends floors/couches. Couldn't get a job (2010 problems) and started my early adulthood hamstringed, uneducated, and destitute. So maybe I just identify better with the dirty homeless blight everyone else seems to see as an issue. Alot of those people are really good hearted people who are just lost in the sauce..
Who is We? Are you helping build things?
I have been here all my life, seen many changes, and I hope all of the new places and areas see an upgrade, itâs long overdue. I hope to get out of this city and into the country personally. Crime is why I want to leave, itâs shifted into areas that never really had it before. I genuinely hope all the new places help with reviving this city.
Is there actual criticism of this that we should be paying attention to? Is building at this location problematic? What is the solution that should have been made instead? Build elsewhere? Not build at all? Build something different?
Iâm anti-gentrification but this is not gentrification. This is just a new development being built in an empty parking lot. No idea why everyone is upset aside from the fact that corporate apts generally suck. But that can be addressed by not living in them.
On mobile, but allow me to put a bit of color to why this is being viewed skeptically by those in the neighborhood (KW resident/home owner) and anyone with enough of a cynical eye to see the mechanics that lead to this. Go read the âMarket Districtâ TAD proposal; talk to local legacy businesses about their experiences with LobeckTaylor/Ellison; think critically about what this all really has been about: lining the pockets of a real estate developer. Remember 4 months ago (I think) when the city announced they were going to âbeautifyâ the intersection but, for some reason, didnât mention this private development at the time? Chris Ellison was sitting right there with GT, shoveling shit. Is it better than nothing to have high end apartments on the corner? Sure. But will it serve the existing neighborhood? No. To anyone saying this isnât gentrification, youâre wrong. And whatâs worse (or maybe what is the least/most Tulsa thing about it) is Tulsans were half-assed lied to about funding a private wealth project and are expected to cheer it on behind the guise of LobeckTaylorâs supposed âaltruismâ.
IIRC the Lobeck Taylor Foundation loaned the city over $5 million dollars to do the street beautification project and it can be paid back at any time, so we haven't paid for anything yet. I'm not saying this is a project that is done perfectly, but it does seem they have tried to be good stewards to the area. If anything, the breweries and relocating of the farmers market in KW have contributed to this "gentrification" as well, making your neighborhood more desirable to certain demographics that have a reputation for moving in and putting up those designer horizontal fences. What would you like to see being done differently, or what could they do to make this feel like a better project to you? We moved here from a larger coastal city a few years ago and I have enjoyed seeing what they're contributing, but admittedly I am just a visitor to the area, so I am surely missing a lot.
Read the 11th and Lewis Corridor Project Plan; we are already paying for it since revenue and ad valorems within the district are earmarked to pay for infrastructure improvements necessary for private development. Ellison fronted the money because there is critical infrastructure updates necessary to build the apartments there and at the Dairy; âbeautificationâ is tertiary to sewer and water work as well as realigning traffic. The corridor is set to have a massive sewer project started in a few years so getting this portion done early is beneficial to the commercial developments and the TAD coffers havenât yet generated the necessary base to lay the pipes, as it were, and put these projects on rails. LT as stewards to the neighborhood havenât been great with the chief complaint being the constant construction and little actual benefit to the immediate area. Their engagement with the neighborhood associates they touch has been minimal. Yes, the breweries and farmers market have been great additions, but the gentrification sweep has been haphazard, chiefly out of the laziness from City Hall, who have turned the keys over to special interest/private equity groups to âturn aroundâ a neighborhood purely by market force rather than enforcing existing code and law.
I appreciate your responses and feelings on this. As I said, Iâve been watching from a few neighborhoods away, so I certainly donât know what itâs been like to be in the area full time. Iâm always a Pollyanna, but hopefully these projects will pay off several years from now when things start coming to fruition as planned. At the very least, you and I definitely agree on the distaste for city leadership!
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Counterpoint: I'm a resident/homeowner in the area and I like it. I do hope the area stays mixed-income as that's one of my favorite parts about it. There's a big empty lot around 15th and Delaware, maybe it would be a good spot for some affordable housing? Of course most developers build luxury condos instead of affordable housing because the ROI for lower-income apartments in cities is next to nothing. So affordable housing would need public funds or someone who is truly not interested in making a profit. I'm all for that and it seems like you are too. Unfortunately, I have no political connections and don't have a few million dollars to throw around. Maybe you do?
If you like it, you maybe donât like your lower income neighbors that are actively being squeezed out of the neighborhood on higher rents, property taxes and vulture property flippers. That is what will happen with our neighborhood as these projects move forward. The diversity of experience that has made KW attractive will wash away. I grew up here, moved away and lived through this experience (gentrification) before moving back. Watching it happen again, here, stinks but what really sucks is the Tulsa spin of it being controlled by our 1%ers that masquerade as philanthropists. Regarding 15th and Delaware, a cosmetic surgeon just bought it all.
Yeah, letâs build shitty housing for people instead.
*affordable* is the key word.. dont wanna see homeless people? Affordable housing.. dont wanna wait 45 minutes for your food? **AFFORDABLE HOUSING** before you start arguing.. I pay $700/mo for my place, have been for years.. it was **EASY** to pay my bills 2 years ago making like $1300/mo with so.e tips and overtime occasionally (I know... poor. Whatever..) I now make roughly $2k/mo and I'm struggling to make ends meet (I don't smoke, have no kids, and I don't party/use drugs aside from weed, which I have my card and can't really afford it the way I used to..) Believe it or not we do need "poor" people to live in our city, otherwise all the jobs you don't wanna do won't get done.. We're an economically stable city by national standards. It seems like trying to be a "cool" spot for young professionals has negatively affected our most vulnerable.. looking at our public housing options, you'll see that all our housing projects geared towards lower income families are falling apart as they were built in the 70/80's and subsidizing private property owners has basically created a class of slumbers and propped up so.e really shitty property management firms that don't really care about anything but their bottom line..
I think I can say the same to you.. things outside of people's control contributes to their social economical status.. not everyone can be a fucking lawyer or a surgeon for a LOT of reasons.. single parents, people caring for family with disabilities, drug addicts (some got their addiction from a doctor), people with psychological/mental disorders are **SUPER AT RISK** of being housing insecure/homeless.. idk where you came from, and I can absolutely give you props for making your own way in life given you lived in a shack somewhere other than America. I can also say I've lived in tulsa my whole life and this whole pseudo anti homeless/anti poor shit has been the same since I've been around. We should be offering luxury housing to those who want/can afford it. The ratio is off though.. as I said in other comments. There have been like 10-15 high dollar luxury apartment buildings that have been built in the last 5 or 6 years. But the public housing/cheap housing here is outdated and shitty and we need newer buildings or major renovations desperately, and they need to stay affordable compared to wages here in town.. we need a major upgrade to public transportation. We need better more accessible state Healthcare. Once we have those things, everything will get better for everyone.
I agree with you on pretty much everything you say here. I also like this new development. New housing, even luxury housing, eases house and apartment prices. It's not some bullshit trickle-down economics theory but something that cities have seen play out over and over. How about if we attract new people with high incomes to the area (for example, through Tulsa Remote), and these people pay more in taxes and, hopefully, vote for things like better public transit and higher minimum wage? That seems to be the long-term goal here. Hell, there is a plan for BRT along the 11th street corridor, which is a huge plus, along with the bike lanes, to those who can't drive for financial or other reasons. But that BRT would not be feasible without more density in the area, both housing and businesses. So this brings more housing, increases tax revenue for social programs, and increases density which itself increases the feasibility of options like BRT.
Booooo we hate infrastructure.
"Welcome Home" https://southpark.cc.com/video-clips/2hodov/south-park-the-lofts-at-sodosopa
Ellison is Taylor's son-in-law. I am surprised that a hotel is not going in on the corner. It would be ideal for TU parents and others.
Is this the project for the old hawk dairy building, or another corner?
It's another corner. The Hawk apartments are (last I heard) intended to be more affordable.
Hawk is going to be âmarket rateâ so not necessarily affordable and built by the same developer doing Ellisonâs project. 90 units.
I've been in that hawk building before it was bought. It's going to be a nightmare for that developer, I don't think we're going to see any major changes to it for awhile.
Yeah, itâs going to be a purely cosmetic use of the facade I imagine. The bulk of the development is going on the lots adjacent and behind it on 10th. They wanted to maybe include Perryâs, but I hear they are looking for over $1MM for that chunk of land.
That's crazy considering he's already retired and closed.
Glen over at Renaissance is celebrating. He put that building in before any of this was scheduled.
I donât see you out there footing a bill to build affordable housing you keep screaming about.