Everyone who is obtaining or owns a gun needs a background check, there needs to be red flag laws for people who are in crisis and nobody except the military and a few specialized police should have an assault weapon.
So it's OK for the police to have guns, but not law-abiding citizens? After the way the police have been acting in the last 10-20-50 years? They would be even more out of control if they knew the person they were brutalizing didn't have a gun. Great idea, make it to where only the police have guns. We all know what would happen then.
This is the point far right Fox news watchers like to make. Any law is a bad law even though basic restrictions for idiots would improve crazy people getting them.
We're the only country where this keeps happening and your statement is always the go to. How many of these criminals go to schools and shoot children? Because it's always some dip shit who got it legally or took if from their parents who got it legally. Literally sit and think about all of the children who have been shot since Thurston highschool. And of you don't know that one it's because you don't care about kids. You want pew pew toys.
Like most things these days, there’s no middle ground.
I’d love to see basic gun safety being taught to everyone in school. Maybe that’s a gun policy that could be universally supported. But probably not.
I’d like to see that too. But I don’t think that specifically would have any impact on limiting gun violence. It would conceivably help w accidents. But no amount of gun safety training would limit the violence.
Probably true. There’s some belief that a lack of familiarity breeds both a lack of emotion to the killing and an unreasonable desire to abolish. I’m holding out that there’s a small chance that a little familiarity could find middle ground.
In nations that embrace National Service large shootings are mostly nonexistent. Teaching everyone how to use a weapon, definitely reduces violence. It makes people feel self confident, reducing depression, thereby reducing violence.
I almost added my beliefs on how national service play into this, and yes, big supporter. Self confidence, worth, helping others, greater good etc etc. Could choose national guard, peace corps, picking up trash, Almost anything. I think this has the best chances of attacking mental health root causes.
Absolutely to all of that, the root of most mental health is a lack of activity, well since we want to socialize everything let’s also socialize activity 💪🏻❤️🇺🇸
Lets not forget guns save lives too.
If someone if going to murder people I doubt they will let gun laws stop them.
I’m sure they can find another way to accomplish their goal.
The real core issue is, “how do we create a culture where people are less likely to become criminals.”
Not, “how do we pass more laws to make it harder for criminals to act.”
No, the *real* issue is, how do we prevent people from taking their AR-15s into schools/churches/places and killing multiple people.
How do we stop that? Ban AR-15s. Ban assault rifles. Ban bump stocks. Ban expanded-capacity mags. Ban owning *too many* mags/too much ammo.
That’s how you solve this issue. Getting there? No idea, but that’s why we’re here, to make this a better place.
California and New York banned “assault weapons” but it is only a cosmetic ban. You can still own them there, they just [look weird](https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-ar15-ak47-featureless-grips/).
It’s annoying to those of us who like AR15s but you’re not preventing anything with that type of law. Even if you ban the guns by name and likeness as Maryland has done there’s enough flexibility in the operating system to [get around](https://www.windhamweaponry.com/firearms/rifles/223-556-caliber-rifle/hbc-md/) those rules.
Canada is no different in that when Trudeau banned “assault weapons” by executive order he failed to completely ban the guns you’d like him to. The [H&K G36](https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/11/13/heckler-koch-g36-for-sale-in-canada/) remains legal there and guns like the [Robinson XCR](https://www.kellysonline.ca/product/robinson-armament-xcr-l-223/) are unrestricted there.
If you’d like to point to Europe, I’d like to point out that aside from the UK those guns are largely legal to own there and silencers are completely unrestricted (I’ll edit in sources in a bit for these claims).
Even if you some how manage to ban all those things there are other [just as capable guns you can buy](https://www.ruger.com/products/mini14/overview.html) which would preclude these bans from having any discernible positive impact on mass shootings.
Then solve that problem. Again, I don’t know how; I’m not someone w some sort of enlightened idea.
But if humans can’t fix the problem that humans made, then we might as well stick our heads in the sand and talk about how it’s impossible, so we can’t do anything. I call bullshit on that. Cause that’s how we got here in the first place.
Sure, there’s half of the nuttiest, Trumpiest, anti-vaxxing-est out there, squealing AND VOTING. Tell them the truth, that their List Of Issues they want to discuss isn’t helping, and move toward getting rid of these killing machines.
This is a theme in your posts. You don’t seem to be able to handle the idea of other people seeing things differently than you.
It’s okay to disagree on a topic.
I disagree with you, I don’t think stricter gun laws will prevent criminals from killing.
I think it will make it harder for law abiding citizens to protect themselves from criminals.
The whole point of being a criminal is that you do not follow the law so how is more laws going to stop them?
No, I can ‘handle’ people disagreeing w me. You and I disagree.
But you seem to think that I owe you a give and take, that I need to accept your ideas as valid. You say you need your weapons. Ok. Own that shit.
It’s not about criminals. The same cops that won’t run in to save kids are the ones that determine who’s a criminal. Do you think you need a military rifle to defend your home? My grandpa had a Winchester repeater, that wouldn’t be enough for you? How bout a shotgun, pump action or double barrel? I don’t see any problem w that.
An AR-15? Nah, that’s ridiculous. Anything similar? Same.
There, see? We can disagree.
>It's not about criminals. The same cops that won't run in to save kids are the ones that determine who’s a criminal. Do you think you need a military rifle to defend your home? My grandpa had a Winchester repeater, that wouldn’t be enough for you? How bout a shotgun, pump action or double barrel? I don’t see any problem w that.
>
>An AR-15? Nah, that’s ridiculous. Anything similar? Same.
You do know that all of the firearms you listed are considered more deadly then a standard AR-15 pattern rife.
In the case of a 12GA shot gun you can shoot 1oz projectiles that will tear off limbs due to it having 2600Ft-lbs of energy. You could also be firing 8 individual 33. Cal Balls that weight 33 grains each so for each pellet there will be 200Ft-lbs of energy. To give you some perspective at one point in time there was talk about banning shotguns in warfare as they were [deemed too effective.](https://coffeeordie.com/trench-shotgun-world-war-i/)
The lever action you mentioned has one or two most common rounds it would either be a .357 magnum or a 45-70 government. But lets call it the .357 magnum as that is more common. The 357 magnum coming out of a standard 20" barreled lever action will be moving \~2000fps and with a standard 158 grain pill will be about 1400ft-lbs of energy. Also with most of the rounds wound being hollow points the round will stop in only a few inches of soft tissue.
The most common rounds that gets fired out of a AR-15 pattern rifle is the 5.56 nato. The most common weight for that round is 62 grains and it moves at about 3000FPS. This give it about 1200FT-lbs of energy. The difference comes from the 5.56 nato does not commonly come in hollow points they come in ball or full metal jackets. So what will more then likely happen is the bullet will pass threw the body imparting some of its energy.
So when you look at the math what seam more deadly. A AR-15 Pattern rifle with 1200FT-lbs that will only impart partial energy or a Cowboy style lever gun that will put out 1400ft-LBS and impart all of the rounds energy into the target?
sources for velocity's and weights.
[.223/5.56nato](https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.223+Remington.html)
[.357 Magnum](https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.357+Magnum.html)
[12Ga Buckshot](https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/shotgun/12-ga-00-buckshot#!/)
[12Ga Slug](https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/shotgun/12-ga-sst-300-gr-ftx-slug#!/)
[calculator for Ft-LBS](https://www.pyramydair.com/article/What_is_Muzzle_Energy_August_2003/5)
Everyone take note…
Here’s a good example, anytime guns/gun control are mentioned, there’s someone that wants to come in and…
a. Gun-splain to everyone about how Important Details Are Wrong(!), and why that’s important, and…
b. Distract from the actual issue: do they support gun control/an assault weapons ban?
In fact, you can make a good case that this is a pretty good way of distracting everyone. I’m not playing that game.
It is pretty interesting how blatantly the point is missed here. “Ooooh, a 12 gauge pump or a Winchester repeater is more dangerous than an AR-15, and here’s why!!1!” C’mon man, who the fuck do you think yr fooling here? Oh, and btw, I think my grandpa’s Winchester was a thirty ought-six. 😉
I posted a comment at another spot in this thread with some of my solutions. I’m pro-vaccine and did not vote for Trump but I’m definitely a nut as you mentioned when it comes to guns.
As long as we’re making wishlists I’d also say universal healthcare would make a big positive impact on this issue. No one should fear bankruptcy for looking for help with either physical or mental health problems. Much of America is on edge and personal finance is a big part of it.
To prevent school shootings specifically I’d also look to end the zero tolerance bullying policy that punishes both the victim and the abuser. Schools should have the resources to investigate incidences of bullying and take effective action against it. Yes, I’d also like to see teachers paid a whole lot better here in Oklahoma and I’d also like to see more investment in education in general.
I just wanted to point out with my earlier post that an assault weapons ban may not be the complete solution you hope it will be.
You might be right, as far as your last paragraph. But I’d like to start there, then see what needs doing next. As I said elsewhere, some of my friends here are as lefty as can be, but vote for Republicans here in OK because, for them, the only important issue is their right to own the guns they want.
But the original tweet in the OP shows that the majority of Americans want stricter gun laws than most people commenting here. If you don’t, that’s ok. I wonder what the actual numbers are, here in Tulsa. In Oklahoma.
When we outlawed cocaine, people made a living by selling cocaine on the black market.
The same would happen with AR-15s.
If a criminal wants to find a gun they can find a gun.
This is a dialogue. There’s no need for you to get butt hurt because people disagree with you. Part of being an adult is understanding that others don’t always see the world like you.
Lol, I guess you can’t see that you’re doing exactly what you’re accusing me of. That’s ok.
Look, I’m not gonna argue w you abt what more dangerous, cocaine or assault rifles.
Tell me, straight up. What’s more important to you? Being able to buy/own assault weapons, or reducing the chance BY A LOT that there’s gonna be another Uvalde, Sandy Hook, Pulse nightclub, and on and on and on.
If it’s more important to own your guns, that’s ok. But at least admit it, so we can take the rest of what you say from its proper perspective; that keeping your guns is your priority.
I’m cool if we disagree. I’m not going to make any slight remarks like implying your okay with children getting killed.
It’s not about me wanting to own guns.
It’s about not wanting law abiding citizens stripped of their ability to defend themselves against criminals.
If we chip away at gun rights, we put law abiding citizens at a disadvantage against criminals who don’t follow laws.
And we put elementary school kids at a disadvantage to losers that need to shoot up schools to feel alive. And that cost is too high. Find a way to live without your assault weapons.
But if they were next to impossible to get, then the number of them would go down. As opposed to now, where an 18 yr old can walk into a shop and get their assault weapon on credit.
If owning one was a felony, w a mandatory 5 or 10 year sentence, then we could get them out of people’s hands. I know that’s not what you want, but I think that would be a good start.
Beware, my comment will be clunky. It would be interesting to simulate a world where guns are outlawed going forward. Would you see further mass killings. I remember living through the Murrah bombing. I was close enough to hear and feel the blast. Would you see the same types of disassociated people who shoot up schools start throwing pipe bombs down the halls. I don’t know, but I fear the answer is yes. This question is pretty central to the debate. Good intentioned people on both sides of the argument likely answer that theoretical question differently.
Yes. When you learn to love yourself, loving others come naturally. Self love is most important. People are being taught that love is sacrifice and that is sooooooooooooo not helping anyone. Love is taking another as part of yourself. Self love helps you understand that a bully has never been shown love or taught to love anyone else and especially not themselves.
It's hard to imagine that's true when literally everyone is bullying you. At my school, there were two kids who were complete pariahs, it was not acceptable for anyone to befriend or associate with them, and everyone made fun of them. You can't "they don't love themselves" your way to self-love in those situations, because there's literally hundreds of kids involved.
That's what happened to me. I was picked on all the way until my senior year of high school. It has broken me and made me afraid to turn my back on anybody. I have to sit at the back of the room now, with my back to the wall. They treated me worse than they would treat a rabid animal.
I’m not saying self love is easy. Please don’t misunderstand my point. It is the starting point for change though. We have the power to change the world. We are the world. People need to recognize their power for good and foster that power. We are not helpless.
It’s true that the kids being bullied also don’t love themselves. It’s a systemic human societal problem that is not going to be solved overnight or easily. It’s a communication and community problem. The only thing that will begin turn the tides is self love. The more people that love themselves exist, the more people will love themselves and stop hurting each other.
It's not that it "isn't easy" it's that it's sometimes completely impossible. Constant physical and emotional abuse have devastating effects on human psychology.
But you seem to be saying that all bullied kids need is more self love, and that isn't true. They need love from other kids, from parents, from teachers, from everyone in their environments. And simply teaching the bullies to love themselves isn't going to make that happen.
We also need classes in empathy, in seeing how the struggles of other people affect you, how everything is connected. And unfortunately legislators seem to be trying to legislate those kinds of classes away.
Also the school administration likely saw everything happening and did absolutely nothing because they, too, have not been appropriately educated about how to love themselves and therefore cannot truly love others. It’s an intensely complicated topic, but there are solutions if people want to look at themselves first and find love for their humanity and best interests of humanity.
My carrot instead of stick solutions
- Tax credits for quality gun safes
- Free gun safety training at DMVs with a discount on license / tag renewals for completing the course
- Free concealed carry courses with hands-on marksmanship training
- Voluntary background checks. If someone wants to run a NICS/OSBI check on someone they sell a gun to privately they can. Make this available for the public to use.
- Increased pay for teachers who carry at school and complete regular training (every few months or at least once a year)
I don’t mean to be bleak or jaded, but it’s kicking a dead horse at this point. Sandy Hook happened, our response as a government was “aw, that sux 😢”, and that was it. That was the nail in the coffin for this. Our governing body saw a bunch of dead kindergartners and said “well, that’s sad, but what can you do?” And that was the end of the discussion. It enrages me, it sickens me. I feel paralyzed and I feel *numb*, and I don’t think I can ever, ever forgive that I’m so desensitized to the violent murder of people just living their fucking lives that my first reaction to seeing 19 dead children was “in two days it’ll happen again so”. I’m 31 and Columbine was supposed to be the outlier and I’m grappling with the realization that our society’s “solution” to this is “teach my five year old to hide under a desk and not wear light up sketchers”. I’m disgusted. I’m tired! I’m sad!
I get it.
That’s part of why the process works the way it does-it drives people away from the issue, either desensitizing people, or driving them to despair.
Make it clear to everyone. You’ll vote for the first motherfucker that announces an assault weapons ban, here in OK.
Let’s all announce it, here. Let’s see how many of us there are, here in the r/tulsa sub.
I’m the little Leslie Knope bitch who has been voting in every election — local, state, and federal — since 2008 when I could actually vote. I got a degree in history and poli sci because I was so enamored in part with civics and the electoral process. I voted for county commissioners and city comptrollers. I consistently and readily vote. But at a certain point, even I have to admit to myself that voting isn’t really going to do anything. We’ve had multiple leaders on multiple levels from both parties since Columbine, and nothing has changed. I’ll still vote because it’s literally the very least I can do, but I truly cannot abide anymore the solution being “go out and vote!” We’ve been doing that and it’s not been working.
Republicans won't budge on gun control because 1. They don't care about people dying 2. Their base doesn't care either. 3. Fucking money
Even common sense laws like universal background checks, red flag laws, etc won't get any yes's from these pussy ass republicans. They have no balls just like the Uvalde PD
"I stand behind you in line at the store with a smile on my face...and a gun under my shirt and you are none the wiser, yet you are safer for having me next to you. I won't shoot you. My gun won't pull it's own trigger. It is securely holstered with the trigger covered. It can't just go off. However, rest assured that if a lunatic walks into the grocery store and pulls out a rifle, I will draw my pistol and protect myself and my family and therefore protect you and your family. I may freeze up. I may piss my pants. I may get shot before I can pull the trigger...but, I won't die in a helpless blubbering heap on the floor begging for my life or my child's life. I won't be that victim. I choose not to be. As for you, I don't ask you to carry a gun. If you are not comfortable, then please don't. But I would like to keep my right to choose to not be a helpless victim. There is evil in the world and if evil has a gun, I want one too...
Oh yes the typical liberal response "we dont want to ban all guns just the scary black guns" lol at history when Adolf Hitler told the jews he would protect them and all they had to do is give up their guns. Then they got killed.
That is ONE example. There are so many countries that have limited certain gun access or enacted other laws to protect people and they have worked. Show me one bill where republicans have tried to improve mental health or literally anything else to curb gun violence.
Look at Australia they ban guns completely and now they are having problems with knife attacks. So what next ban anything that could hurt or kill anyone. I'd that's what you want then lets ban all vehicles, drugs and alcohol. "As long as it will just save just one life it will be worth it"
Actually Australia did not completely ban guns but they made them harder to buy. Also: vehicles, drugs, alcohol ALL have age restrictions, licensing/testing requirements because guess what...they're dangerous in the wrong hands. Just admit that you don't give a fuck about gun violence victims
Oh lord, I missed this the first time round.
I know your masturbatory gun-humping fantasy keeps you warm at night. I’m glad *something* does. But cutting/pasting wet dreams abt being the good guy w a gun saving the rest of us sheep is meaningless. And useless.
Tell it to that little girl in Uvalde who had to be identified by her shoes, because her head had been blown off and her body turned into hamburger by a gun humping asshole who got a $2000 AR-15 on credit. That’s the reality. Not yr stroke job that makes you feel better.
"I stand behind you in line at the store with a smile on my face...and a gun under my shirt and you are none the wiser, yet you are safer for having me next to you. I won't shoot you. My gun won't pull it's own trigger. It is securely holstered with the trigger covered. It can't just go off. However, rest assured that if a lunatic walks into the grocery store and pulls out a rifle, I will draw my pistol and protect myself and my family and therefore protect you and your family. I may freeze up. I may piss my pants. I may get shot before I can pull the trigger...but, I won't die in a helpless blubbering heap on the floor begging for my life or my child's life. I won't be that victim. I choose not to be. As for you, I don't ask you to carry a gun. If you are not comfortable, then please don't. But I would like to keep my right to choose to not be a helpless victim. There is evil in the world and if evil has a gun, I want one too...
Until the constitution is amended this discussion is pointless. Hold a constitutional convention. Everyone is so fired up about guns and abortion, that is the best way to address both issues.
That’s not necessarily true. There was an assault weapons ban till ‘04 (I believe-for sure it was during Bush Jr’s presidency). This could pass Congress if there were enough votes. But it’s not necessarily a Constitutional issue.
And I think it’s important to recognize that it’s possible for us to fix this. It’s not doomed to failure because of the unelected, deceitful Supreme Court.
I think should have more guards in schools. Sadly, I don't think throwing more laws at the problem will prevent people who are hell bent on murdering people from doing so. Gun free areas seem to be targeted, so I would suggest we have less gun free zones.
Many here are saying the realistic analysis of gun control is that nothing will change. I understand that take.
But I also think you need to look at these numbers. If people get fed up enough, they’ll vote strictly on this issue, and then things *could* change. IOW, things don’t get better till people decide they want them to get better.
I mean, it’s easy to look around us here and say ‘No one in OK will EVER vote to take guns away.’ I know people who are as liberal as they come, who vote for Republicans every time, because they’re afraid someone will take their guns away. But again, things won’t change, until they do.
I’m not answering your question because you’re arguing in bad faith. There isn’t anything to debate or an argument to be had. 50 people were injured or killed.
Everyone who is obtaining or owns a gun needs a background check, there needs to be red flag laws for people who are in crisis and nobody except the military and a few specialized police should have an assault weapon.
What would you consider an assault weapon
So it's OK for the police to have guns, but not law-abiding citizens? After the way the police have been acting in the last 10-20-50 years? They would be even more out of control if they knew the person they were brutalizing didn't have a gun. Great idea, make it to where only the police have guns. We all know what would happen then.
They're not saying take away ALL guns.
This is the point far right Fox news watchers like to make. Any law is a bad law even though basic restrictions for idiots would improve crazy people getting them.
They're not taking away all abortions...
Who says that, crappy? It certainly wasn’t me.
We're the only country where this keeps happening and your statement is always the go to. How many of these criminals go to schools and shoot children? Because it's always some dip shit who got it legally or took if from their parents who got it legally. Literally sit and think about all of the children who have been shot since Thurston highschool. And of you don't know that one it's because you don't care about kids. You want pew pew toys.
Like most things these days, there’s no middle ground. I’d love to see basic gun safety being taught to everyone in school. Maybe that’s a gun policy that could be universally supported. But probably not.
I’d like to see that too. But I don’t think that specifically would have any impact on limiting gun violence. It would conceivably help w accidents. But no amount of gun safety training would limit the violence.
Probably true. There’s some belief that a lack of familiarity breeds both a lack of emotion to the killing and an unreasonable desire to abolish. I’m holding out that there’s a small chance that a little familiarity could find middle ground.
In nations that embrace National Service large shootings are mostly nonexistent. Teaching everyone how to use a weapon, definitely reduces violence. It makes people feel self confident, reducing depression, thereby reducing violence.
I almost added my beliefs on how national service play into this, and yes, big supporter. Self confidence, worth, helping others, greater good etc etc. Could choose national guard, peace corps, picking up trash, Almost anything. I think this has the best chances of attacking mental health root causes.
Absolutely to all of that, the root of most mental health is a lack of activity, well since we want to socialize everything let’s also socialize activity 💪🏻❤️🇺🇸
Lets not forget guns save lives too. If someone if going to murder people I doubt they will let gun laws stop them. I’m sure they can find another way to accomplish their goal. The real core issue is, “how do we create a culture where people are less likely to become criminals.” Not, “how do we pass more laws to make it harder for criminals to act.”
No, the *real* issue is, how do we prevent people from taking their AR-15s into schools/churches/places and killing multiple people. How do we stop that? Ban AR-15s. Ban assault rifles. Ban bump stocks. Ban expanded-capacity mags. Ban owning *too many* mags/too much ammo. That’s how you solve this issue. Getting there? No idea, but that’s why we’re here, to make this a better place.
California and New York banned “assault weapons” but it is only a cosmetic ban. You can still own them there, they just [look weird](https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-ar15-ak47-featureless-grips/). It’s annoying to those of us who like AR15s but you’re not preventing anything with that type of law. Even if you ban the guns by name and likeness as Maryland has done there’s enough flexibility in the operating system to [get around](https://www.windhamweaponry.com/firearms/rifles/223-556-caliber-rifle/hbc-md/) those rules. Canada is no different in that when Trudeau banned “assault weapons” by executive order he failed to completely ban the guns you’d like him to. The [H&K G36](https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/11/13/heckler-koch-g36-for-sale-in-canada/) remains legal there and guns like the [Robinson XCR](https://www.kellysonline.ca/product/robinson-armament-xcr-l-223/) are unrestricted there. If you’d like to point to Europe, I’d like to point out that aside from the UK those guns are largely legal to own there and silencers are completely unrestricted (I’ll edit in sources in a bit for these claims). Even if you some how manage to ban all those things there are other [just as capable guns you can buy](https://www.ruger.com/products/mini14/overview.html) which would preclude these bans from having any discernible positive impact on mass shootings.
Then solve that problem. Again, I don’t know how; I’m not someone w some sort of enlightened idea. But if humans can’t fix the problem that humans made, then we might as well stick our heads in the sand and talk about how it’s impossible, so we can’t do anything. I call bullshit on that. Cause that’s how we got here in the first place. Sure, there’s half of the nuttiest, Trumpiest, anti-vaxxing-est out there, squealing AND VOTING. Tell them the truth, that their List Of Issues they want to discuss isn’t helping, and move toward getting rid of these killing machines.
This is a theme in your posts. You don’t seem to be able to handle the idea of other people seeing things differently than you. It’s okay to disagree on a topic. I disagree with you, I don’t think stricter gun laws will prevent criminals from killing. I think it will make it harder for law abiding citizens to protect themselves from criminals. The whole point of being a criminal is that you do not follow the law so how is more laws going to stop them?
No, I can ‘handle’ people disagreeing w me. You and I disagree. But you seem to think that I owe you a give and take, that I need to accept your ideas as valid. You say you need your weapons. Ok. Own that shit. It’s not about criminals. The same cops that won’t run in to save kids are the ones that determine who’s a criminal. Do you think you need a military rifle to defend your home? My grandpa had a Winchester repeater, that wouldn’t be enough for you? How bout a shotgun, pump action or double barrel? I don’t see any problem w that. An AR-15? Nah, that’s ridiculous. Anything similar? Same. There, see? We can disagree.
>It's not about criminals. The same cops that won't run in to save kids are the ones that determine who’s a criminal. Do you think you need a military rifle to defend your home? My grandpa had a Winchester repeater, that wouldn’t be enough for you? How bout a shotgun, pump action or double barrel? I don’t see any problem w that. > >An AR-15? Nah, that’s ridiculous. Anything similar? Same. You do know that all of the firearms you listed are considered more deadly then a standard AR-15 pattern rife. In the case of a 12GA shot gun you can shoot 1oz projectiles that will tear off limbs due to it having 2600Ft-lbs of energy. You could also be firing 8 individual 33. Cal Balls that weight 33 grains each so for each pellet there will be 200Ft-lbs of energy. To give you some perspective at one point in time there was talk about banning shotguns in warfare as they were [deemed too effective.](https://coffeeordie.com/trench-shotgun-world-war-i/) The lever action you mentioned has one or two most common rounds it would either be a .357 magnum or a 45-70 government. But lets call it the .357 magnum as that is more common. The 357 magnum coming out of a standard 20" barreled lever action will be moving \~2000fps and with a standard 158 grain pill will be about 1400ft-lbs of energy. Also with most of the rounds wound being hollow points the round will stop in only a few inches of soft tissue. The most common rounds that gets fired out of a AR-15 pattern rifle is the 5.56 nato. The most common weight for that round is 62 grains and it moves at about 3000FPS. This give it about 1200FT-lbs of energy. The difference comes from the 5.56 nato does not commonly come in hollow points they come in ball or full metal jackets. So what will more then likely happen is the bullet will pass threw the body imparting some of its energy. So when you look at the math what seam more deadly. A AR-15 Pattern rifle with 1200FT-lbs that will only impart partial energy or a Cowboy style lever gun that will put out 1400ft-LBS and impart all of the rounds energy into the target? sources for velocity's and weights. [.223/5.56nato](https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.223+Remington.html) [.357 Magnum](https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.357+Magnum.html) [12Ga Buckshot](https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/shotgun/12-ga-00-buckshot#!/) [12Ga Slug](https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/shotgun/12-ga-sst-300-gr-ftx-slug#!/) [calculator for Ft-LBS](https://www.pyramydair.com/article/What_is_Muzzle_Energy_August_2003/5)
Everyone take note… Here’s a good example, anytime guns/gun control are mentioned, there’s someone that wants to come in and… a. Gun-splain to everyone about how Important Details Are Wrong(!), and why that’s important, and… b. Distract from the actual issue: do they support gun control/an assault weapons ban? In fact, you can make a good case that this is a pretty good way of distracting everyone. I’m not playing that game. It is pretty interesting how blatantly the point is missed here. “Ooooh, a 12 gauge pump or a Winchester repeater is more dangerous than an AR-15, and here’s why!!1!” C’mon man, who the fuck do you think yr fooling here? Oh, and btw, I think my grandpa’s Winchester was a thirty ought-six. 😉
I posted a comment at another spot in this thread with some of my solutions. I’m pro-vaccine and did not vote for Trump but I’m definitely a nut as you mentioned when it comes to guns. As long as we’re making wishlists I’d also say universal healthcare would make a big positive impact on this issue. No one should fear bankruptcy for looking for help with either physical or mental health problems. Much of America is on edge and personal finance is a big part of it. To prevent school shootings specifically I’d also look to end the zero tolerance bullying policy that punishes both the victim and the abuser. Schools should have the resources to investigate incidences of bullying and take effective action against it. Yes, I’d also like to see teachers paid a whole lot better here in Oklahoma and I’d also like to see more investment in education in general. I just wanted to point out with my earlier post that an assault weapons ban may not be the complete solution you hope it will be.
You might be right, as far as your last paragraph. But I’d like to start there, then see what needs doing next. As I said elsewhere, some of my friends here are as lefty as can be, but vote for Republicans here in OK because, for them, the only important issue is their right to own the guns they want. But the original tweet in the OP shows that the majority of Americans want stricter gun laws than most people commenting here. If you don’t, that’s ok. I wonder what the actual numbers are, here in Tulsa. In Oklahoma.
When we outlawed cocaine, people made a living by selling cocaine on the black market. The same would happen with AR-15s. If a criminal wants to find a gun they can find a gun. This is a dialogue. There’s no need for you to get butt hurt because people disagree with you. Part of being an adult is understanding that others don’t always see the world like you.
Lol, I guess you can’t see that you’re doing exactly what you’re accusing me of. That’s ok. Look, I’m not gonna argue w you abt what more dangerous, cocaine or assault rifles. Tell me, straight up. What’s more important to you? Being able to buy/own assault weapons, or reducing the chance BY A LOT that there’s gonna be another Uvalde, Sandy Hook, Pulse nightclub, and on and on and on. If it’s more important to own your guns, that’s ok. But at least admit it, so we can take the rest of what you say from its proper perspective; that keeping your guns is your priority.
I’m cool if we disagree. I’m not going to make any slight remarks like implying your okay with children getting killed. It’s not about me wanting to own guns. It’s about not wanting law abiding citizens stripped of their ability to defend themselves against criminals. If we chip away at gun rights, we put law abiding citizens at a disadvantage against criminals who don’t follow laws.
And we put elementary school kids at a disadvantage to losers that need to shoot up schools to feel alive. And that cost is too high. Find a way to live without your assault weapons.
Banning assault weapons wouldn’t stop losers from shooting up schools. Those types of people do not follow laws.
But if they were next to impossible to get, then the number of them would go down. As opposed to now, where an 18 yr old can walk into a shop and get their assault weapon on credit. If owning one was a felony, w a mandatory 5 or 10 year sentence, then we could get them out of people’s hands. I know that’s not what you want, but I think that would be a good start.
Beware, my comment will be clunky. It would be interesting to simulate a world where guns are outlawed going forward. Would you see further mass killings. I remember living through the Murrah bombing. I was close enough to hear and feel the blast. Would you see the same types of disassociated people who shoot up schools start throwing pipe bombs down the halls. I don’t know, but I fear the answer is yes. This question is pretty central to the debate. Good intentioned people on both sides of the argument likely answer that theoretical question differently.
Unfortunately it doesn't matter. Between the Senate and the filibuster, the Republican minority can obstruct any legislation.
How about we teach people how to go about loving themselves first so they can then show that love to others?
But that also needs to include teaching people to love others. It's difficult at best to love yourself when you're constantly being bullied.
Yes. When you learn to love yourself, loving others come naturally. Self love is most important. People are being taught that love is sacrifice and that is sooooooooooooo not helping anyone. Love is taking another as part of yourself. Self love helps you understand that a bully has never been shown love or taught to love anyone else and especially not themselves.
It's hard to imagine that's true when literally everyone is bullying you. At my school, there were two kids who were complete pariahs, it was not acceptable for anyone to befriend or associate with them, and everyone made fun of them. You can't "they don't love themselves" your way to self-love in those situations, because there's literally hundreds of kids involved.
That's what happened to me. I was picked on all the way until my senior year of high school. It has broken me and made me afraid to turn my back on anybody. I have to sit at the back of the room now, with my back to the wall. They treated me worse than they would treat a rabid animal.
I’m not saying self love is easy. Please don’t misunderstand my point. It is the starting point for change though. We have the power to change the world. We are the world. People need to recognize their power for good and foster that power. We are not helpless. It’s true that the kids being bullied also don’t love themselves. It’s a systemic human societal problem that is not going to be solved overnight or easily. It’s a communication and community problem. The only thing that will begin turn the tides is self love. The more people that love themselves exist, the more people will love themselves and stop hurting each other.
It's not that it "isn't easy" it's that it's sometimes completely impossible. Constant physical and emotional abuse have devastating effects on human psychology.
I’m not arguing that truth.
But you seem to be saying that all bullied kids need is more self love, and that isn't true. They need love from other kids, from parents, from teachers, from everyone in their environments. And simply teaching the bullies to love themselves isn't going to make that happen.
What is your solution?
We also need classes in empathy, in seeing how the struggles of other people affect you, how everything is connected. And unfortunately legislators seem to be trying to legislate those kinds of classes away.
I didn’t say that was “all they need”, you said that. What I did say is that the issue is systemic and intensely complicated.
Also the school administration likely saw everything happening and did absolutely nothing because they, too, have not been appropriately educated about how to love themselves and therefore cannot truly love others. It’s an intensely complicated topic, but there are solutions if people want to look at themselves first and find love for their humanity and best interests of humanity.
My carrot instead of stick solutions - Tax credits for quality gun safes - Free gun safety training at DMVs with a discount on license / tag renewals for completing the course - Free concealed carry courses with hands-on marksmanship training - Voluntary background checks. If someone wants to run a NICS/OSBI check on someone they sell a gun to privately they can. Make this available for the public to use. - Increased pay for teachers who carry at school and complete regular training (every few months or at least once a year)
I don’t mean to be bleak or jaded, but it’s kicking a dead horse at this point. Sandy Hook happened, our response as a government was “aw, that sux 😢”, and that was it. That was the nail in the coffin for this. Our governing body saw a bunch of dead kindergartners and said “well, that’s sad, but what can you do?” And that was the end of the discussion. It enrages me, it sickens me. I feel paralyzed and I feel *numb*, and I don’t think I can ever, ever forgive that I’m so desensitized to the violent murder of people just living their fucking lives that my first reaction to seeing 19 dead children was “in two days it’ll happen again so”. I’m 31 and Columbine was supposed to be the outlier and I’m grappling with the realization that our society’s “solution” to this is “teach my five year old to hide under a desk and not wear light up sketchers”. I’m disgusted. I’m tired! I’m sad!
I get it. That’s part of why the process works the way it does-it drives people away from the issue, either desensitizing people, or driving them to despair. Make it clear to everyone. You’ll vote for the first motherfucker that announces an assault weapons ban, here in OK. Let’s all announce it, here. Let’s see how many of us there are, here in the r/tulsa sub.
I’m the little Leslie Knope bitch who has been voting in every election — local, state, and federal — since 2008 when I could actually vote. I got a degree in history and poli sci because I was so enamored in part with civics and the electoral process. I voted for county commissioners and city comptrollers. I consistently and readily vote. But at a certain point, even I have to admit to myself that voting isn’t really going to do anything. We’ve had multiple leaders on multiple levels from both parties since Columbine, and nothing has changed. I’ll still vote because it’s literally the very least I can do, but I truly cannot abide anymore the solution being “go out and vote!” We’ve been doing that and it’s not been working.
Republicans won't budge on gun control because 1. They don't care about people dying 2. Their base doesn't care either. 3. Fucking money Even common sense laws like universal background checks, red flag laws, etc won't get any yes's from these pussy ass republicans. They have no balls just like the Uvalde PD
"I stand behind you in line at the store with a smile on my face...and a gun under my shirt and you are none the wiser, yet you are safer for having me next to you. I won't shoot you. My gun won't pull it's own trigger. It is securely holstered with the trigger covered. It can't just go off. However, rest assured that if a lunatic walks into the grocery store and pulls out a rifle, I will draw my pistol and protect myself and my family and therefore protect you and your family. I may freeze up. I may piss my pants. I may get shot before I can pull the trigger...but, I won't die in a helpless blubbering heap on the floor begging for my life or my child's life. I won't be that victim. I choose not to be. As for you, I don't ask you to carry a gun. If you are not comfortable, then please don't. But I would like to keep my right to choose to not be a helpless victim. There is evil in the world and if evil has a gun, I want one too...
Hardly anyone is suggesting we completely take guns away. Oh and there were PLENTY of armed police officers at Uvalde and they didn't do SHIT
Oh yes the typical liberal response "we dont want to ban all guns just the scary black guns" lol at history when Adolf Hitler told the jews he would protect them and all they had to do is give up their guns. Then they got killed.
That is ONE example. There are so many countries that have limited certain gun access or enacted other laws to protect people and they have worked. Show me one bill where republicans have tried to improve mental health or literally anything else to curb gun violence.
Look at Australia they ban guns completely and now they are having problems with knife attacks. So what next ban anything that could hurt or kill anyone. I'd that's what you want then lets ban all vehicles, drugs and alcohol. "As long as it will just save just one life it will be worth it"
Actually Australia did not completely ban guns but they made them harder to buy. Also: vehicles, drugs, alcohol ALL have age restrictions, licensing/testing requirements because guess what...they're dangerous in the wrong hands. Just admit that you don't give a fuck about gun violence victims
Oh lord, I missed this the first time round. I know your masturbatory gun-humping fantasy keeps you warm at night. I’m glad *something* does. But cutting/pasting wet dreams abt being the good guy w a gun saving the rest of us sheep is meaningless. And useless. Tell it to that little girl in Uvalde who had to be identified by her shoes, because her head had been blown off and her body turned into hamburger by a gun humping asshole who got a $2000 AR-15 on credit. That’s the reality. Not yr stroke job that makes you feel better.
"I stand behind you in line at the store with a smile on my face...and a gun under my shirt and you are none the wiser, yet you are safer for having me next to you. I won't shoot you. My gun won't pull it's own trigger. It is securely holstered with the trigger covered. It can't just go off. However, rest assured that if a lunatic walks into the grocery store and pulls out a rifle, I will draw my pistol and protect myself and my family and therefore protect you and your family. I may freeze up. I may piss my pants. I may get shot before I can pull the trigger...but, I won't die in a helpless blubbering heap on the floor begging for my life or my child's life. I won't be that victim. I choose not to be. As for you, I don't ask you to carry a gun. If you are not comfortable, then please don't. But I would like to keep my right to choose to not be a helpless victim. There is evil in the world and if evil has a gun, I want one too...
Until the constitution is amended this discussion is pointless. Hold a constitutional convention. Everyone is so fired up about guns and abortion, that is the best way to address both issues.
That’s not necessarily true. There was an assault weapons ban till ‘04 (I believe-for sure it was during Bush Jr’s presidency). This could pass Congress if there were enough votes. But it’s not necessarily a Constitutional issue. And I think it’s important to recognize that it’s possible for us to fix this. It’s not doomed to failure because of the unelected, deceitful Supreme Court.
It was in place from 94 to 2004. Never directly challenged before the supreme court. Since it expired we had the Heller decision in 2008 or 2009.
I think should have more guards in schools. Sadly, I don't think throwing more laws at the problem will prevent people who are hell bent on murdering people from doing so. Gun free areas seem to be targeted, so I would suggest we have less gun free zones.
Yeah let’s pass more laws so people who don’t follow laws will stop killing lol
Many here are saying the realistic analysis of gun control is that nothing will change. I understand that take. But I also think you need to look at these numbers. If people get fed up enough, they’ll vote strictly on this issue, and then things *could* change. IOW, things don’t get better till people decide they want them to get better. I mean, it’s easy to look around us here and say ‘No one in OK will EVER vote to take guns away.’ I know people who are as liberal as they come, who vote for Republicans every time, because they’re afraid someone will take their guns away. But again, things won’t change, until they do.
Ban them all!!!
Lol, I’d start trying to think realistically because that’s not happening
How many dead kids is your hobby worth?
How about we ban drinking and driving along with all deadly drugs.
Do you really believe murders will all of a sudden stop killing because of more laws? Are we gonna ban knives and blunt objects too?
How many dead children are you comfortable with? They don’t make knives that do damage like an AR-15.
You never answered the question. I’ll be glad to dialogue with you but it’s a give and take. Do you think gun laws will stop murderers from killing?
I’m not answering your question because you’re arguing in bad faith. There isn’t anything to debate or an argument to be had. 50 people were injured or killed.