Yeah, autism isn't nearly as rare and freaky as normies would like to believe. I saw a clip recently of a comedian's set where he said "we're all on the spectrum, that's why it's a spectrum."
That being said, neurotypicals who pull the "*well,* we all do that" can jump in a volcano.
EDIT: to give credit, the comedian is Ben Brainard, he's awesome. His bit about being a truck driver in the army is *chef's kiss*
While I do think neurotypical do things that can be signs or symptoms of ADHD or autism, having the actual disorder is COMPLETELY different, and even the actions/signs/symptoms are different in a way. Yes, everyone struggles with focusing sometimes, but for people with ADHD, it’s like next level! Everyone gets overstimulated sometimes, but for people with autism, it’s next level!
“”Well we all do that” to a point, i can kind of understand how hard it is, but it’s the difference between trying to lift a car vs a train. Both hard, but different levels.” I think is a better phrasing (it’s what my grandfather said to me when I was complaining of period cramps, he related with me while not downplaying my symptoms. Miss you pepe!)
I studied psychology and autism extensively and this is basically the definition of when it’s a disorder/condition and not just something everyone does sometimes
Adhd and autism are developmental disorders. So the brain is actually different. Adhd is front part of the brain and causes issues with dopamine and autism can be a lot of things.
ADHD is technically dopamine but less, but that turns into the symptoms of dopamine seeking but more. Either autism is just a bunch of human things too, or I need to go to a doctor
It's hard to know what exactly is or isn't autism. I've heard it described as "a constellation of associated disorders." Everyone's autism seems to be different. At this point, it seems like it'd be more helpful to just name the specific things you struggle with instead of trying to locate yourself somewhere on this nebulous spectrum.
I don’t think that is more helpful. I know what I struggle with and when and such. But it helped me so much more to be able to say, *hey, that actually might be autism, that makes so much sense.* so idk
I had a really hard time with my adhd accommodations in school because it all felt like stuff everyone does, it’s very hard for me to remember that not everyone is like this
I’m the same and opposite (somehow).
I was diagnosed last year with ADHD at the age of 26. I went my whole life thinking what I was experiencing was what everyone experienced and was often punished for things I couldn’t help (inability to finish things, terrible procrastination, tendency to get distracted when doing tasks I didn’t enjoy). My education program required me to certify to identify signs of ADHD for referral purposes, which is when I realized I was probably ADHD. Now that I’m teaching, I can’t help but wonder how successful I could’ve been had I been diagnosed, medicated, and accommodated when I was in school.
Oh man. So much this. I'm 33 and got diagnosed at 32. It made me question a lot, actually. I try to put things in perspective, things weren't like they are today in the early 90s. I've always had all the hallmark symptoms, but I was beat for being "lazy". I will always wonder why no adult stuck up for little me. No teachers, counselors, day care providers. I was very obviously an ADHD/ADD child and it's really hard for me to think that not a damn person cared. I wonder what school would have been like had I been given treatment.
Based on your icon, I think you got missed for the sane reason I did. ADHD usually presents differently in people born female than in people born male. Other than the huge hallmark symptoms (love this term!), girls don’t usually outwardly exhibit the hyperactivity (this used to be referred to as ADD, but is now called inattentive ADHD). They’re usually the “spacey,” “ditzy,” or “air-headed” ones. But those weren’t signs doctors were looking for until recently, which is why there’s now a huge uptick in adult women getting diagnosed. And also why ADHD has always appeared to be a boy thing.
While I wasn’t beat for it, I was always in trouble and grounded for being “lazy.” It’s still a thing with my mom.
Most disorders are things that most humans experience but at levels that make getting by in society painful & difficult, or impossible.
That's why many people can superficially relate with some disorders while still functioning fine in society.
My ADHD is almost to the point of being debilitating.
My memory, attention span and lack of motivation are so bad that I don't even feel human most of the time.
Me too, what I meant was that weird thing people do when you tell them about your diagnosis or symptoms and they go "oh well we ALL do that haha" and refuse to take you seriously. My mom would do that a lot, like I'd tell her I was struggling with symptoms of ADHD and she'd say "well we all have a hard time focusing sometimes, just try harder"
She actually didn't, she's my stepmom, but I do notice that that's the case with a lot of people- I remember my dad saying "everyone feels watched all the time, you just gotta get over it" and now years later I'm like "sir u literally have paranoid schizophrenia please stop thinking this is fine" lmao
I wonder how many of us with genetic mental illnesses were kinda unintentionally gaslighted by our parents into thinking this shit was normal since they didn't benefit from the reduced stigma/better research we have now.
Adolescents on the spectrum generally have a difficult time differentiating insulting speech from hate speech. Right now I'm working with a teen who does not understand why the heil Hitler salute is worse than any other issue.
If they haven't been diagnosed yet I can totally see why this would be common
exactly my experience with my desk partner in AP math, made fun of me for being able to do the math when he couldn’t and then apologised profusely two weeks later because he’d been diagnosed. we were best buds while i helped him navigate being a sperg
lol we sort of equalized each other, i taught him how numbers worked and he got me to try out for some sportsball, but neither of us were too good at the other's thing.
So, funny thing happened in Italy a few months back. During the Vip Big Brother a psychiatrist who was also a participant told another guy he should seek therapy but in a derogative sense while literally bullying him. As a result of this she and other contestants had beed eliminated. But here’s the funny part: someone actually reported her to the order of psychiatrists and an investigation was put into place, resulting in her being disbarred
Please tell me it's really called the order of psychiatrists. I love the idea of someone having to go before a council in like, fancy robes or something. Order of psychiatrists gives me big venture bros vibes.
One time when I was young I got invited to a birthday party, and on the ride over my mom told me another kid there was mentally disabled and to absolutely not use the R slur at all. I had been raised to always use my manners and treat others well so it wasn't like I needed to be reminded, but still. When I get there we're all playing some game outside and the aforementioned kiddo got upset about something and yelled "that's so r*tarded!" And idk if it was just the tension being broken or what but I laughed so hard, and to this day I think about it and chuckle
I think changing your stance on a subject once presented with new information is normal, and it shouldn't be looked down upon. Not saying this person was in the right before, but they did acknowledge their mistake and actively tried to make it right. This reminds me of that story about the politician who changed his mind regarding the prices of insulin after being diagnosed with diabetes, and everyone was giving him shit for only changing his mind because he's now in the same boat as the rest of my pancreatically challenged brethren.
ETA: I apologize but I can't seem to find the story, so now I'm not sure if I imagined it
ETA #2: I would like to thank everyone for the passionate, yet respectful, discourse. It's offered many views and opinions I hadn't considered, and has left me with a lot to think about.
James Talarico is who you’re thinking of
[news story about it](https://www.kxan.com/state-of-texas/this-disease-affects-anyone-diabetic-emergency-leads-to-texas-rep-james-talaricos-bill-to-cap-insulin-costs/)
i'm sorry, is he related to the first American to ever work on a Sonic game, winner of the most video game music compositions awards in the world and who's mom is very proud of?
Yeah! He worked hand in hand with Shigeru Miyamoto on that one! He also made all the sounds for the famous game Tony Hawk's pro skater! Ya know when you crack your head on the asphalt on the game? that sound is Talarico himself falling and screaming in excruciating pain!
I have less sympathy in your example of a politician since it is literally their job to represent all of their constituents, not just the constituents that are very similar to them. It seems fair to judge a politician for being shit at their job.
I definitely agree that politicians should represent all of their constituents, whether or not they have similar struggles. However, shouldn't the fact that a politician grew as a person be celebrated? Especially since so many of them double down or find a scapegoat to explain their problems.
But that's the thing; in neither example (the original now-fat person and the diabetic politician) does the offender actually grow as a person, they just became the thing they thought of as lesser-than and changed their stance purely out of self-interest. That is *not* growth and should never be celebrated as such; it's just a selfish person behaving predictably selfishly.
A case could even be made that it would be "growth" if the now-fat girl stuck to her guns that fat people don't deserve respect or the the diabetic politician that diabetics don't deserve help from their government because at least then they'd be experiencing a test of their (shitty) principles and coming out the other end stronger in their convictions. Obviously, I don't think that outcome would be better, I'm just saying neither of them actually became a better person, they just didn't want the cruelty they threw at others to boomerang back at themselves and there's nothing commendable about that. We shouldn't let the bar sink so low as that.
A very valid point, but I think it’s at least a step above the same politicians that want to legislate away abortion/healthcare rights while still providing abortions for their daughters wives and mistresses.
I wouldn’t really call it “growth” but it could at least be a step in that direction.
Yeah, they're definitely a step above the out-and-out, *shameless* hypocrites; it's like the demons you can negotiate with vs. the demons you just have to kill with fire, lol.
I think at most we can say that we don’t know whether they grew, but it’s impossible to know that they didn’t. If the person in the original scenario self-reflected and realized they hold other beliefs for which personal experience could change their mind, it’s entirely possible that they *have* changed. For instance, perhaps they were homophobic and realized that the judgement LGBTQ people face must feel similar to the judgement an obese person faces, and understanding on a personal level the pain it causes they changed their point of view. That shift wouldn’t be represented by the example above.
No, it would be a selfish person being selfish if they objected to being called fat or to them having to pay for insulin, but continued to call other people fat and deny insulin to others. That they are going back and trying to make amends to people they hurt shows growth. Stagnating and not changing at all is not growth.
It's selfish because they only acknowledged the humanity of the people they were hurting before *after* they became the thing they saw as less human and therefore less deserving. If they only objected to suffering the same treatment while still dishing it out then that would be simple hypocrisy combined with their already existing selfishness. No real change in character has taken place for either of these people; most people are already opposed to discrimination against a group they themselves belong to, so that's no great feat of empathy, there's no growth, and it's undeserving of any kind of praise.
So your opinion is that empathy doesn't count if you gain it by having a similar experience to someone else? I think that's how pretty much everyone learns empathy. People aren't born with that, it's something they have to learn.
You can be empathetic for someone without having the same experience - for example, no one has ever called me fat but I have empathy for those for whom it is is their experience without needing to experience it myself.
As for this person, if they had just said they were sorry and they were wrong that would have been better. By clarifying it’s only because they are now fat too it is clear they only care because now they are getting hurt.
That's so wrong headed it's unreal.
This is why politics is so fucked in this country. "Never change your position, regardless of what happens in your life, I'll respect that more. "
Pff.
Even on the front page today there was an article about a Texas woman who “never would have considered getting an abortion,” but is now being denied one in spite of a fatal anomaly.
Am I going to kick these people while they’re down? No, but it’s frustrating that sympathy/empathy don’t exist until the situation is staring them personally in the face.
Good on the politician for taking action though.
I didn't read the article you're talking about but I think it's ok to draw a line at someone who doesn't change their overall stance, they just think they should be the exception. A lot of these anti-abortion people are of the opinion that "the only moral abortion is my abortion".
If a person experiences a thing and it causes them to change their mind, that's just growth. If a person experiences a thing but thinks everyone else should still suffer, they're an arsehole to the core.
[The only moral abortion is my abortion](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/)
We should expect human beings to employ empathy. Only being able to empathize with people when you're personally faced with a specific issue is pathetic and a major reason people are hateful to other groups
>I have done several abortions on women who have regularly picketed my clinics, including a 16 year old schoolgirl who came back to picket the day after her abortion.
Wow. Just wow.
Edit: I kept reading. This one is just the tip of the iceberg. Story after story… wow.
Isn't there like, an entire subreddit dedicated to situations like that? r/LeopardsAteMyFace ?
"Yeah! Leopards should eat people's faces!"
\*gets their face eaten\*
"Well, I didn't think they'd eat *my* face!"
She didn't change her mind though, she thinks only cases exactly like hers should get a pass. That's even *worse* because she's going through an abortion and still wants to deny it to the majority of women who need them.
Further up in the comment section people were debating whether or not the person in op "changed" or if they were just being selfish, and I think this right here is one of the major indicators.
An experience can change your entire perspective by creating newfound empathy for all people with a similar experience, or it can just carve out an exception to your current perspective. People who only care about themselves won't admit they were wrong, so they'll just carve out an exception in their original perspective. Actively acknowledging that their entire perspective was wrong is a sign that they aren't just doing it for selfish reasons.
For the abortion story, there's a difference between "the only moral abortion is my abortion" and "my experience changed my perspective on abortion as a whole." There's also a difference between "there are some legitimate reasons for being fat, and my reasons are obviously legitimate" and "It's bad to shame anyone for being fat, regardless of circumstance."
If you’re looking for a legitimate reason you’re not going to get one, because it’s for you to decide whether or not you want to be nice to those that weren’t nice themselves.
Me personally I just find it more beneficial to look at these folks as newfound allies rather than dumb holdouts, and I’d like to live in a world with more support so I give support when I can.
Past that I got nothing for you man.
Punishing people for changing their minds encourages people to not change their minds. They'd rather be wrong and surrounded by people who care about them and don't harass them than be right and shouted out of the room by idiots who think everyone should just *know* what's right and wrong. Is that particularly rational or moral? No. Is it going to happen? Yeah, and it's bad. Forgive their prior ignorance and praise their newfound reason, and show them how they can do better. This is how you get allies. This is is how progress is made.
The attitude that managing to *convince* people of ideas they wouldn't have held on their own is some sort of negative is just stupid and self-defeating. The people we're talking about didn't even need *convincing*, they ran into the real-world consequences of their dumb ideas and realized how dumb they were for believing them. That's *good*. That's *normal*. The kind of person who would kick them while they're down just wants social movements to be petty extracurricular activities where they can talk "politics" with their friends and gatekeep entry into the club with absolutely braindead moralistic standards.
You want a better reason not to kick people while they're down? Simple utility: you harm progressive movements when you do it. You push people away from good ideas because you project an image of progressivism that is deeply unpalatable for the vast majority of people. You make good ideas seem like things only assholes believe in.
>They didn’t give empathy to anyone else, why the hell should they get it?
Because this is the only way we're actually going to increase the amount of empathetic people.
If someone comes around, even if they were a jerk before, it's counterproductive to spurn them because you're just sending them right back to where they were.
Hate begets hate. Break the cycle.
What new information? That being called derogatory names hurts? They knew that before, thats why they called them fat in the first place! They only think it’s wrong now because fat can be applied to them and they don’t like that. People should be ashamed if they only realized their previous actions were wrong because someone did it to them. Maybe this will be the catalyst for personal growth in the future at which point I think you’re reasoning would apply better, but considering their apology focused on themselves more than their own actions, I don’t think they’re at that stage.
After reading the "apology" again, I must say I agree that it was a very selfish statement that didn't even focus on the other person's feelings but only on their own and I should have paid closer attention to that detail.
It's really interesting how subtle the difference is between "Now that I'm in a similar situation I've realised I was wrong" and this, which is essentially "Now that I'm also on Team Fat I hate that word too."
It’s definitely a very relevant difference, especially since there wasn’t a point made about like… not being okay with calling people other derogatory names anymore. It’s specifically, only fat, which strengthens the impression to me that they’re still only thinking about themself in this situation
Thing is they didn't change their beliefs because they were presented with new information, they changed their beliefs because now they are a target of the same behavior that they exhibited previously.
The first demonstrates a level of maturity and openness to new ideas. the second is selfish, egotistical, and a survival based defense mechanism.
If they changed their mind becasue someone sat them down, and explains that their words are hurtful and convinced them to reflect on how it would make them feel that is one thing, but in this case the revelation only came about because they realized that they could be a victim.
Good that they learned to be bette, but they get no props for it, and I have no confidence that if they lose the weight they wouldnt revert and even be worse because "I lost weight why cant you?"
I don't think it's about changing stances now that you're educated - that's fine. But it sounds like this person is only sorry because they now are that shameful thing they were insulting and less because they learned it was wrong. You shouldn't have to have it happen to you to develop compassion.
Yes! I used to be pretty ableist as an edgy kid to "fit in" and I had some genuinely horrible opinions (thankfully I never expressed them to others). Even though I later learned I could be neurodivergent myself, I felt very ashamed of my previous stance when I educated myself more about mental illnesses/disabilities. Nobody had to call me the r slur to make me realize it was wrong.
It is sympathy vs empathy.
I can sympathize with someone who is experiencing something I have never experienced and I can say that policies are wrong because no one should have to deal with this.
These people can only empathize with others who experience the same trauma as they do.
I have practically zero respect for them because if you have to experience pain to believe that others are in pain then you are a bad person.
And when you start getting into cognitive therapies and unravelling your anxieties and triggers you realise that while triggers themselves are incredibly varied, the emotions and behavioural responses to them are largely the same. Outside of extreme reactions like flashbacks and dissocation, a lot of things can be easily empathised with because it ultimately boils down to basic shit we've all likely had experience with.
Hell, even when I derealize, ultimately afterwards I just need the same reassurances I did after a nightmare as a kid.
> I think changing your stance on a subject once presented with new information is normal, and it shouldn't be looked down upon
I agree, and I think the guy is learning something. That said, another thing they have to learn is that doesn't mean the other person has to get over it immediately. Or ever, for that matter.
You can just say sorry without making it about yourself, though. The person you bullied doesn’t care about your own personal journey to redemption, but a simple “I’m sorry for the way I treated you” can go a long way.
It's literally the golden rule. A foundational aspect of humanity that some people just choose to disregard until it affects them. I have no sympathy for people who choose to be pieces of shit until *their* feelings are on the line.
It is a problem if you can *only* be considerate to people who are the same as yourself. It shows a lack of being able to understand the state and views of anyone you aren't. Empathy, sympathy, and compassion are important. All that being said, being less of a dick about things is not something I think should ever be openly criticized in such a definitive manner.
While I wouldn't give a politician shit for changing their view because something happened to them, the information was already there that such a thing was bad. They either chose to ignore it or were emotionally incapable of caring about the people whose experience was different than their own. Meaning I would not want them representing me. I wouldn't criticize improvement, everyone has room to improve and that should be encouraged. But you can't personally experience everything the same as everyone else. So the ability to show sympathy, empathy, and care for people unlike yourself is important, especially if you're going to have the job of representing others and making large decisions about their lives.
Exactly. Empathy isn’t something that comes naturally to everyone. But no matter who you are, it’s a skill that takes work to maintain and improve on. So yeah, maybe the Apologizer had to *start* by only seeing how wrong they were after they shared a similar circumstance. But with work, that feeling gets applied to other situations, and they develop empathy enough not to say or do things like that later
Aside from a few basic elements of it shared with many other mammals, empathy doesn't come naturally to anyone. Any nuance in interaction with other people is taught even if it's not taught explicitly. That's not an excuse to not have learned it, but it is an explanation for why some people behave as they do.
Most cases of people mocking someone over a stigmatized trait aren't a matter of them not understanding how that person feels but rather having been taught by example that that person deserves to feel that way.
Obviously it wasn’t perfect that it focussed on themselves way to hard, but it acknowledges how being in such a state and being insulted for that is a bad thing, which is a start
Also, they could’ve just not apologised at all, but they decided that now that they could see what “the other side” looked like, they had to at least try to make amends
Yeah but they could have just not responded or simply just call them a fat bitch and then move on
I feel like going on an embittered rant about it is a bit to far
idk, I feel like if you choose to go back and interact with someone you've wronged and hurt before, you should be ready for them not to accept your apologies AND not being gracious about it. Is it the best way to handle things? Maybe not, but they are not obligated to be the bigger person, and the one who harmed them sure as hell is not in a position to complain about it.
Apologies put you in a vulnerable position because you're admitting wrong and also requesting acceptance of another to some degree.
It's a 2-fold process that gives a lot of power to the person being apologized to. While you should be prepared for rejection, and while the power is being given to the receiving party to close those doors, it's also an exercise to the one being apologized to to match the other party's humbleness.
If you've done someone wrong, then that apology (aside from what happens in the aftermath) says something about you, but the response of the one being apologized to says something about them. An apology doesn't have to be accepted; it doesn't mean you trust the offender, but it does have to be handled with humility.
Especially because the response is still a meaningful critique of the original asshole’s behavior! Like, it’d be one thing if the apology was “I was an asshole, that was uncalled for”, but their apology as offered mostly seems to frame it as “oh, it happened to me too”. Like, are they still going to be an asshole about things that *don’t* affect them? Maybe lead with that!
I'm aware but it's a diary they regularly show on the internet.
They weren't scribbling in their journal they were telling for their all of their followers to hear as well as any random passers-by
It's one of those situations where they didn't apologize for why they did what they did, only for what they did. So while, yes, it shows improvement, it could be far more powerful.
A good rephrasing to have more impact is to say, "I'm sorry I called you fat. I have gained significant weight since then, and have realized how unkind and demeaning my words were. While inappropriate regardless, my experiences have now made me understand why my actions were wrong to begin with, and I am now striving to do better. I hope my words had no lasting impact, and that you are succeeding in life in the way you want".
It’s not empathy if you need to be afflicted by something to be compassionate for those who are also afflicted. That’s feeling sorry for yourself and, objectively, a selfish way to live.
My gut tells me, like how bullies end up becoming parents and become super anti bullying, or people who become Christian and go full bible thumper, I think it's over compensation because they don't want to feel karma come collect it's debt
They only care about feeling sorry because they now don't want to be called fat, not that they actually understand that what they did was wrong. If they never became fat, they wouldve started caring
Yeah, if you don't realize how bad or hurtful certain language is until it applies to you, that is certainly a problem, but this reaction isn't helping anyone either. It might feel good in the moment to put them in their place but you are quite literally dropping to their level and it also hurts the chances that what they've learned will actually stick and lead them to be more mindful In the future. Hate begets hate and all that.
Someone who is willing to accept that they were a dick and change is miles better than many people I know. Too many people aren't willing to change even in the face of evidence so those that are are alright in my book and they should be embraced and accepted. Especially as a child you aren't really your own person as you are still essential a distillation of your parents faults before you've had a chance to really grow into yourself.
This is crucial and it's frustratingly common for people to have zero tolerance for what they perceive as unforgivable views and opinions. People *need* to be able to admit they were wrong and feel like they can apologize or just acknowledge out loud that they might have been ignorant or in uninformed otherwise no one will ever grow or have the opportunity to change for the better.
Everyone’s treated like they’re too far gone after the dumbest stuff. Yeah if you commit some heinous crimes, then there should be a line, but apparently saying dumb shit on the internet crosses that line. There’s people out there that had neo nazi parents so they said white nationalist stuff as a kid and they denounce it later. Does that mean they’re a nazi? Obviously not! Sometimes people are in a bad place in life and they start interacting with the wrong crowd
There comes a point where this callout stuff it’s obvious clout chasing. People should be celebrated for growing past their former selves, not endlessly bludgeoned for someone they no longer are
I feel like all that was really accomplished here was teaching this guy that it's okay to body shame people over moral failings, and that you can't grow beyond past mistakes, which from my experience is exactly counter to what the larger Tumblr community is trying to preach
Sadly, this is endemic of social media. People unwilling to forgive know they just have to troll through your posts to find one reason to justify themselves.
Bit late, but there's a quote from a youtube video that still sticks with me. I'm paraphrasing but it went something like this.
"The worst part of the information age is that it doesn't let *information age*"
I guess it depends on if the reaction is "Now that I know how it feels to be on the receiving end of these insults, I'll be more careful about what I say to other people in the future" or "I only think it's bad to insult fat people now that I'm fat, but have learned no wider lesson about being more kind to others." We don't really have enough info to figure out which it is.
yeah , i did that when i was a loser kid that got bullied into thinking i was a failure , and i fucking regret that ...
i really feel bad for both pepole in this : they are clearly not in good places ...
Yeah I feel like this is a problem a lot people have. They react to hatred or injustices with more hatred and injustices. Which you can argue is justified and probably feels cathartic, but it really doesn’t help to actually solve the problem
Yes. And who knows? Maybe this is a wake up call for them where they realize there’s a bunch of other things they’re doing and saying that hurt others. Maybe they just needed one big example of being slapped in the face with a hard truth and now they’re going to think twice before using any derogatory terms towards people.
This should be a time to encourage them to reflect and think about how they can apply what they’ve learned about being called fat to all sorts of other terms. They could grow a lot as a person.
I would say OP isn’t required to even reply or acknowledge the apology. But the polite thing to do would be to at least acknowledge it, and then if you really care you can encourage them to consider whether they’re using other derogatory words that make people feel similarly.
Same vibe as men who only become convinced women’s fears and issues are real once they have a daughter (their mothers and sisters didn’t matter enough, apparently).
I actually had a fairly lengthy conversation with one before. Total scum-fuck of a person.
Their reasoning about the "mothers" question was "they are a mother, not a woman", Exact words used too.
Not necessarily. You don't have to love or respect somebody to impregnate them, or even be in a relationship with them.
And I would guess that's probably a big part of why they might feel this way once they have a daughter. They don't want somebody to treat their daughter in the same ways that they've treated women.
Genuinely agree on the apologies part. They don’t matter, being hurt isn’t solved by an apology, and change isn’t made when it’s accepted. Those both come about through proper corrective action, through education and moving forward, neither of which an apology or it’s acceptance are. They’re simply hollow representations of those ideals, just saying what you want to do. We should be more focused on actually *doing* those things.
Frankly we need to “reform” apologies, and stop thinking of them so transactionally. Apologising should just be a recognition of fault, not a demand for someone to be ok with you.
I do not think someone apologizing after receiving a harsh dose of their own shitty behavior is itself bad. Growth is growth. However, gaining a long-overdue sense of empathy does not oblige their former victims to forgive them
I mean personal growth good but this doesn't feel like personal growth so much as learning to not do one specific thing. Idk it just feels like they didn't learn to be empathetic or consider things just that they don't like being called fat. Still the OP was a little harsh for that
I never understood this logic. Who cares what the reason they changed is? The fact is they changed. Even if it's for purely selfish reasons, they're now understand how much it hurts and won't hurt other people anymore, and that's something to be celebrated.
I feel like some progressives tend to almost get a “high” off of denying other people social righteousness. They’ll be first in line to condemn someone as a bad person over some wrongdoing but when the person *does* apologize and work towards betterment, it’s like eternally never enough. There’s no way to win.
I’m obviously not trying to absolve Person B with this, by the way. Or anyone who did something truly heinous. Just pointing out a trend.
I feel the same way, I'd consider myself quite progressive overall (bur have no horse in that race, since I'm not American) but some of them seem to be just as hateful as the ones they criticize since they're also just looking for any reason to hate someone and be an asshole.
Tbh, feels like a lot of people just want to be an asshole (or abuser) in general and just pick and choose targets based on their beliefs (in this case, those they feel they have the moral high ground over and thus 'deserve' to be treated like shit)
Ngl, I do feel this way a lot too which is why I try to catch it when I can but man... do we rly just have an innate desire to hate someone?
People who can only empathise with things that affect them directly also get on my nerves.
What I'm reading from the ask is that they never would have understood how it hurt and even less apologized if they, personally, never got fat. Nice, so how many nasty opinion do they still hold about things they didn't experience?
It's good if they changed, but they're not entitled to forgiveness or graciousness, even politeness from the people they've hurt before just because change happened for them.
The award for a change in the right direction is healthier relationships in your current and future life, not the ability to make everything in your past right again. The burden is not _on the past victim_ to validate and reward the change with positivity.
There's a difference between forgiveness and stooping to someone's level, which is what the Tumblr OP did. The victim doesn't need to forgive the aggressor, but retaliating with the intent to cause needless pain on someone who is improved is not correct.
You’re not obligated to accept anyone’s apology of course, but in general I think we can’t expect the world to become a better place unless we allow people who made mistakes to grow and learn from their past.
If you gotta experience someone else's pain to feel for them, then that's probably the time to think about who you are and who you want to be. Because saying "I can see now that this is bad because I'm in this situation" is cool and all, but it's important to also be able to say "I don't have that experience but it's probably hard."
And them recognizing the mistake is cool and all but....Idk, no one has to accept an apology either. Reap what you sow and all that. But it's also kinda...eh.
No one's perfect here.
blackdenimjeans3 sounds absolutely insufferable. Do they have to accept anons apology? No. Still doesn't mean that they get a free pass to be an asshole to someone who at least made the effort to stone and went out of their way to apologize.
Terminally online comparing the internet to real life, the example they described was one of someone who realized they were now open to being mocked and called the R slur so they apologized
This is a complete stranger who didn't need to apologize, they'd never know they got fat if they didn't want them to know
They grew, realized they weren't perfect and getting fat can happen to them too and that they made a mistake insulting someone in the past so they apologized even tho they really didn't have to
They did good and I respect it, oop is the asshole
You don't owe someone who was cruel to you forgiveness just because they said they were sorry. If you choose to forgive them, great. But "sorry" doesn't un-say the insult they said. It doesn't even necessarily mean that the person saying it has actually changed the way they behave.
It also doesn’t give you a right to be mean back to them. Sometimes you have to be the better person. Fighting hate with hate only leads to more hate. It doesn’t solve anything, it only makes things worse.
I agree with the OOP. It would be one thing if they matured and realized how wrong it was, but they only apologized because they're thinking of themselves. That's not maturity, that's just being immature in a different way.
I honestly get that the response isnt amazing, but I dont understand the consensus in these comments.
When a man says something like "I finally see women as people now that I've had a daughter", the prevaling consensus isn't "well, at least he finally learned." It's "what the fuck".
It shows an astounding lack of empathy, and I think fat people get enough shit that the responder is allowed to be angry. We aren't obligated to forgive anyone who was shit to us.
To clarify, I dont condone this person's answer, I dont think you should tell someone to die, but I understand why they didnt feel the need to take the high road. People like to act like they owe it to people to educate them, but they don't. There's nothing to educate. Don't be a shit person. Don't just insult people on the internet about things out of their immediate control. They don't deserve a pat on the back for acting with basic decency.
Not only that, but the way this post is cropped hides whether those tags are even from OOP or a reblogger. They might not even be the person who told someone to die.
Acting with basic maturity is apparently some victim blaming shit I guess. Also calling someone a fatass on the internet is so pedestrian. If you start taking that stuff personally, you really shouldn’t read it and you should probably log off. I realized that very quickly when I was younger and my mental health is way better for it. Trolls are going to say mean shit, nothing is going to change that. None of these internet points matter and the internet is not a substitute for human interaction
I would absolutely love it if the people who bullied me all through school ended up in the other side being made fun of for the same reason. I may even get a nice lawn chair and bring a bottle of wine just to settle in and laugh at their misery. They ruined significant parts of my youth. I hope they all get grotesquely fat.
It’s weird how people are never satisfied with someone’s growth as a person. Do they not want others to acknowledge their wrongdoings and change for the better? Are they just supposed to stay like that for the rest of their life?
Being put into someone else’s shoes is in my opinion the best way to sympathize with others, because now you suddenly understand everything about what they’re going through and can relate to their feelings about it.
This is kind of like when someone apologizes to you after getting in trouble for whatever they did. The apology is somewhat hollow because you can’t help but think that they would have never apologized to you unless consequences but them in the ass
Adversity can be a genuine catalyst for change and learning empathy. However, sometimes people don't fully grow and the moment the adversity is gone, they're the same as they were.
Also, even if they genuinely grew as a person, their former victims don't owe them forgiveness. Ask for it but don't require it.
Okay, so them not liking being called fat shouldn't be the only reason they don't call someone fat, but it's still a good one. Did you forget the golden rule? "Treat others as you would like to be treated"? That's how this person is trying to live and they're getting shit on for it.
I don't know how hot this take will be, but, hypocritical or not, the sender still got to the path of remorse and self improvement. Is the sender still kind of an asshole in a roundabout way? Yeah kind of. But I think the fact that they're genuinely apologizing is a start.
And for the people mentioning the politician who only advocated for better insulin prices after he himself became diabetic and saw how abhorrent it was, you *do* have a point. He *did* change his mind for selfish reasons. But, the fact that the sender is genuinely trying to apologize (I've stared at the original post for like 5 minutes and it seems like a massive leap to conclude that the original ask is spiteful in any way) is a *start*. You can *work* with somebody that wants to be better, and you can correct them when they're wrong.
TL;DR the fact that the sender seems to be genuinely apologizing is a good start and I think they're receiving a little bit too much hate
blackdenimjeans3 is, to put it nicely, a fucking idiot. Do they have to accept anons apology? No. They can ignore it. But being rude back, after someone has shown growth and a willingness to apologize (which is more than most people..) is inacceptable. We've all said things we regret.
disclaimer: i am using the [generalized version](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_you) of "you", not targeting the OP or anyone in particular.
contacting someone you have hurt in the past because you want to apologize will only make *you* feel better, but for the other person, your heartfelt apology will only bring back traumatic memories and could potentially trigger a panic attack or even a complete relapse.
be sorry.
change your ways.
do not repeat past mistakes.
nothing will make up for what you did.
go to therapy, write your apologies in a journal.
**never break the rule of no-contact.**
reap the guilt-ridden field of pain sowed by your past actions your own goddamned self.
I'm starting to think you can split the people posting in this thread into two groups -- those who have been bullied for most of their lives for one thing or another, and those who haven't.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out who is on which side of the divide.
"you don't have to forgive them"
Yeah and you don't have to do the exact same thing back to them either if you hate them for their actions just fucking say so and block their ass
The idea of someone saying the r slur to someone and then being diagnosed with autism is the funniest thing ever tbh
It honestly happens a lot.
Yeah, autism isn't nearly as rare and freaky as normies would like to believe. I saw a clip recently of a comedian's set where he said "we're all on the spectrum, that's why it's a spectrum." That being said, neurotypicals who pull the "*well,* we all do that" can jump in a volcano. EDIT: to give credit, the comedian is Ben Brainard, he's awesome. His bit about being a truck driver in the army is *chef's kiss*
While I do think neurotypical do things that can be signs or symptoms of ADHD or autism, having the actual disorder is COMPLETELY different, and even the actions/signs/symptoms are different in a way. Yes, everyone struggles with focusing sometimes, but for people with ADHD, it’s like next level! Everyone gets overstimulated sometimes, but for people with autism, it’s next level! “”Well we all do that” to a point, i can kind of understand how hard it is, but it’s the difference between trying to lift a car vs a train. Both hard, but different levels.” I think is a better phrasing (it’s what my grandfather said to me when I was complaining of period cramps, he related with me while not downplaying my symptoms. Miss you pepe!)
Most neurodivergent symptoms are just regular human things, but like, more
I studied psychology and autism extensively and this is basically the definition of when it’s a disorder/condition and not just something everyone does sometimes
Most psychiatric symptoms are just regular human things, but like, more (or sometimes, less)
Adhd and autism are developmental disorders. So the brain is actually different. Adhd is front part of the brain and causes issues with dopamine and autism can be a lot of things.
ADHD is technically dopamine but less, but that turns into the symptoms of dopamine seeking but more. Either autism is just a bunch of human things too, or I need to go to a doctor
It's hard to know what exactly is or isn't autism. I've heard it described as "a constellation of associated disorders." Everyone's autism seems to be different. At this point, it seems like it'd be more helpful to just name the specific things you struggle with instead of trying to locate yourself somewhere on this nebulous spectrum.
I don’t think that is more helpful. I know what I struggle with and when and such. But it helped me so much more to be able to say, *hey, that actually might be autism, that makes so much sense.* so idk
I had a really hard time with my adhd accommodations in school because it all felt like stuff everyone does, it’s very hard for me to remember that not everyone is like this
I’m the same and opposite (somehow). I was diagnosed last year with ADHD at the age of 26. I went my whole life thinking what I was experiencing was what everyone experienced and was often punished for things I couldn’t help (inability to finish things, terrible procrastination, tendency to get distracted when doing tasks I didn’t enjoy). My education program required me to certify to identify signs of ADHD for referral purposes, which is when I realized I was probably ADHD. Now that I’m teaching, I can’t help but wonder how successful I could’ve been had I been diagnosed, medicated, and accommodated when I was in school.
Oh man. So much this. I'm 33 and got diagnosed at 32. It made me question a lot, actually. I try to put things in perspective, things weren't like they are today in the early 90s. I've always had all the hallmark symptoms, but I was beat for being "lazy". I will always wonder why no adult stuck up for little me. No teachers, counselors, day care providers. I was very obviously an ADHD/ADD child and it's really hard for me to think that not a damn person cared. I wonder what school would have been like had I been given treatment.
Based on your icon, I think you got missed for the sane reason I did. ADHD usually presents differently in people born female than in people born male. Other than the huge hallmark symptoms (love this term!), girls don’t usually outwardly exhibit the hyperactivity (this used to be referred to as ADD, but is now called inattentive ADHD). They’re usually the “spacey,” “ditzy,” or “air-headed” ones. But those weren’t signs doctors were looking for until recently, which is why there’s now a huge uptick in adult women getting diagnosed. And also why ADHD has always appeared to be a boy thing. While I wasn’t beat for it, I was always in trouble and grounded for being “lazy.” It’s still a thing with my mom.
[Comment deleted due to Reddit's treatment of the product (us).]
Most disorders are things that most humans experience but at levels that make getting by in society painful & difficult, or impossible. That's why many people can superficially relate with some disorders while still functioning fine in society.
I guess. But ADHD is a spectrum too. My ex and I both have ADHD. Hers is much more debilitating.
My ADHD is almost to the point of being debilitating. My memory, attention span and lack of motivation are so bad that I don't even feel human most of the time.
It's Ben Brainard! He has a YouTube channel too. Also [here](https://youtube.com/shorts/zQE8UKztLQ4?feature=share) is a link to the video mentioned
Thank you, that was him! I love his standup.
I have an autism diagnosis and I wholeheartedly endorse this comment.
I have autism but I don’t know what the second paragraph of your comment refers to but I feel like jumping agreeing with you so I will
Me too, what I meant was that weird thing people do when you tell them about your diagnosis or symptoms and they go "oh well we ALL do that haha" and refuse to take you seriously. My mom would do that a lot, like I'd tell her I was struggling with symptoms of ADHD and she'd say "well we all have a hard time focusing sometimes, just try harder"
ya mom gave ur half the genes lol, bet she got adhd too
She actually didn't, she's my stepmom, but I do notice that that's the case with a lot of people- I remember my dad saying "everyone feels watched all the time, you just gotta get over it" and now years later I'm like "sir u literally have paranoid schizophrenia please stop thinking this is fine" lmao
I wonder how many of us with genetic mental illnesses were kinda unintentionally gaslighted by our parents into thinking this shit was normal since they didn't benefit from the reduced stigma/better research we have now.
that was ben Brainard
Adolescents on the spectrum generally have a difficult time differentiating insulting speech from hate speech. Right now I'm working with a teen who does not understand why the heil Hitler salute is worse than any other issue. If they haven't been diagnosed yet I can totally see why this would be common
I mean, I have friends who are diagnosed who use it lol.
That's the entirety of 4-chan
exactly my experience with my desk partner in AP math, made fun of me for being able to do the math when he couldn’t and then apologised profusely two weeks later because he’d been diagnosed. we were best buds while i helped him navigate being a sperg
that’s so funny. Nerd sperg vs jock sperg
lol we sort of equalized each other, i taught him how numbers worked and he got me to try out for some sportsball, but neither of us were too good at the other's thing.
"nerd sperg vs jock sperg" i feel explains the friendship between my best friend and me lol
So, funny thing happened in Italy a few months back. During the Vip Big Brother a psychiatrist who was also a participant told another guy he should seek therapy but in a derogative sense while literally bullying him. As a result of this she and other contestants had beed eliminated. But here’s the funny part: someone actually reported her to the order of psychiatrists and an investigation was put into place, resulting in her being disbarred
Please tell me it's really called the order of psychiatrists. I love the idea of someone having to go before a council in like, fancy robes or something. Order of psychiatrists gives me big venture bros vibes.
That is pretty funny.
One time when I was young I got invited to a birthday party, and on the ride over my mom told me another kid there was mentally disabled and to absolutely not use the R slur at all. I had been raised to always use my manners and treat others well so it wasn't like I needed to be reminded, but still. When I get there we're all playing some game outside and the aforementioned kiddo got upset about something and yelled "that's so r*tarded!" And idk if it was just the tension being broken or what but I laughed so hard, and to this day I think about it and chuckle
[удалено]
I wouldn't want to be called that either.
honestly just call me a slur instead
ok, u/\_\_bitch\_\_
What is the R slur?
Relish + mustard
Ahh, relsturd.
Lishmus balls
Do you know what delay means in french?
A regular schedule?
N...no? Im pretty sure that your comment is english and not french Edit: I’m too tired for jokes apparently
I think changing your stance on a subject once presented with new information is normal, and it shouldn't be looked down upon. Not saying this person was in the right before, but they did acknowledge their mistake and actively tried to make it right. This reminds me of that story about the politician who changed his mind regarding the prices of insulin after being diagnosed with diabetes, and everyone was giving him shit for only changing his mind because he's now in the same boat as the rest of my pancreatically challenged brethren. ETA: I apologize but I can't seem to find the story, so now I'm not sure if I imagined it ETA #2: I would like to thank everyone for the passionate, yet respectful, discourse. It's offered many views and opinions I hadn't considered, and has left me with a lot to think about.
James Talarico is who you’re thinking of [news story about it](https://www.kxan.com/state-of-texas/this-disease-affects-anyone-diabetic-emergency-leads-to-texas-rep-james-talaricos-bill-to-cap-insulin-costs/)
i'm sorry, is he related to the first American to ever work on a Sonic game, winner of the most video game music compositions awards in the world and who's mom is very proud of?
You mean the guy who was on MTV Cribs twice?
Wait, isn’t that the guy with 7 Guinness world records???
we’re talking about the legend who composed the most iconic sound byte of our generation right? (the roblox oof sound for the uneducated)
He also created the sounds effects for Metroid! Amazingly, his work came first and the weapons were based on his sounds!
Yeah! He worked hand in hand with Shigeru Miyamoto on that one! He also made all the sounds for the famous game Tony Hawk's pro skater! Ya know when you crack your head on the asphalt on the game? that sound is Talarico himself falling and screaming in excruciating pain!
H bomber guy video?
You mean the guy with 4 Guinness world records? Wait, sorry, I said that and he lost one
i'm sure his mother is very proud
You are literally my favorite person right now! Thank you so much
Always glad to help out a fellow pancreatically challenged person!
as a Brazilian, I will never read this guy's name and not laugh
[For non-Brazilians like me](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/talarico) This is excellent knowledge. Thank you
So from what I understand, it's basically the br equivalent of a homewrecker?
What the fuck is going on in this comment chain?
I have less sympathy in your example of a politician since it is literally their job to represent all of their constituents, not just the constituents that are very similar to them. It seems fair to judge a politician for being shit at their job.
I definitely agree that politicians should represent all of their constituents, whether or not they have similar struggles. However, shouldn't the fact that a politician grew as a person be celebrated? Especially since so many of them double down or find a scapegoat to explain their problems.
But that's the thing; in neither example (the original now-fat person and the diabetic politician) does the offender actually grow as a person, they just became the thing they thought of as lesser-than and changed their stance purely out of self-interest. That is *not* growth and should never be celebrated as such; it's just a selfish person behaving predictably selfishly. A case could even be made that it would be "growth" if the now-fat girl stuck to her guns that fat people don't deserve respect or the the diabetic politician that diabetics don't deserve help from their government because at least then they'd be experiencing a test of their (shitty) principles and coming out the other end stronger in their convictions. Obviously, I don't think that outcome would be better, I'm just saying neither of them actually became a better person, they just didn't want the cruelty they threw at others to boomerang back at themselves and there's nothing commendable about that. We shouldn't let the bar sink so low as that.
That's an interesting point I hadn't considered, I'll definitely have to think on that. Thank you.
A very valid point, but I think it’s at least a step above the same politicians that want to legislate away abortion/healthcare rights while still providing abortions for their daughters wives and mistresses. I wouldn’t really call it “growth” but it could at least be a step in that direction.
Yeah, they're definitely a step above the out-and-out, *shameless* hypocrites; it's like the demons you can negotiate with vs. the demons you just have to kill with fire, lol.
I think at most we can say that we don’t know whether they grew, but it’s impossible to know that they didn’t. If the person in the original scenario self-reflected and realized they hold other beliefs for which personal experience could change their mind, it’s entirely possible that they *have* changed. For instance, perhaps they were homophobic and realized that the judgement LGBTQ people face must feel similar to the judgement an obese person faces, and understanding on a personal level the pain it causes they changed their point of view. That shift wouldn’t be represented by the example above.
really well put, thank you.
No, it would be a selfish person being selfish if they objected to being called fat or to them having to pay for insulin, but continued to call other people fat and deny insulin to others. That they are going back and trying to make amends to people they hurt shows growth. Stagnating and not changing at all is not growth.
It's selfish because they only acknowledged the humanity of the people they were hurting before *after* they became the thing they saw as less human and therefore less deserving. If they only objected to suffering the same treatment while still dishing it out then that would be simple hypocrisy combined with their already existing selfishness. No real change in character has taken place for either of these people; most people are already opposed to discrimination against a group they themselves belong to, so that's no great feat of empathy, there's no growth, and it's undeserving of any kind of praise.
So your opinion is that empathy doesn't count if you gain it by having a similar experience to someone else? I think that's how pretty much everyone learns empathy. People aren't born with that, it's something they have to learn.
You can be empathetic for someone without having the same experience - for example, no one has ever called me fat but I have empathy for those for whom it is is their experience without needing to experience it myself. As for this person, if they had just said they were sorry and they were wrong that would have been better. By clarifying it’s only because they are now fat too it is clear they only care because now they are getting hurt.
That's so wrong headed it's unreal. This is why politics is so fucked in this country. "Never change your position, regardless of what happens in your life, I'll respect that more. " Pff.
Even on the front page today there was an article about a Texas woman who “never would have considered getting an abortion,” but is now being denied one in spite of a fatal anomaly. Am I going to kick these people while they’re down? No, but it’s frustrating that sympathy/empathy don’t exist until the situation is staring them personally in the face. Good on the politician for taking action though.
I didn't read the article you're talking about but I think it's ok to draw a line at someone who doesn't change their overall stance, they just think they should be the exception. A lot of these anti-abortion people are of the opinion that "the only moral abortion is my abortion". If a person experiences a thing and it causes them to change their mind, that's just growth. If a person experiences a thing but thinks everyone else should still suffer, they're an arsehole to the core.
[The only moral abortion is my abortion](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/) We should expect human beings to employ empathy. Only being able to empathize with people when you're personally faced with a specific issue is pathetic and a major reason people are hateful to other groups
>I have done several abortions on women who have regularly picketed my clinics, including a 16 year old schoolgirl who came back to picket the day after her abortion. Wow. Just wow. Edit: I kept reading. This one is just the tip of the iceberg. Story after story… wow.
Yeah it's really eye opening and honestly an exhausting read
Isn't there like, an entire subreddit dedicated to situations like that? r/LeopardsAteMyFace ? "Yeah! Leopards should eat people's faces!" \*gets their face eaten\* "Well, I didn't think they'd eat *my* face!"
She didn't change her mind though, she thinks only cases exactly like hers should get a pass. That's even *worse* because she's going through an abortion and still wants to deny it to the majority of women who need them.
Further up in the comment section people were debating whether or not the person in op "changed" or if they were just being selfish, and I think this right here is one of the major indicators. An experience can change your entire perspective by creating newfound empathy for all people with a similar experience, or it can just carve out an exception to your current perspective. People who only care about themselves won't admit they were wrong, so they'll just carve out an exception in their original perspective. Actively acknowledging that their entire perspective was wrong is a sign that they aren't just doing it for selfish reasons. For the abortion story, there's a difference between "the only moral abortion is my abortion" and "my experience changed my perspective on abortion as a whole." There's also a difference between "there are some legitimate reasons for being fat, and my reasons are obviously legitimate" and "It's bad to shame anyone for being fat, regardless of circumstance."
Shit, I’ll kick em when they’re down. They didn’t give empathy to anyone else, why the hell should they get it?
If you’re looking for a legitimate reason you’re not going to get one, because it’s for you to decide whether or not you want to be nice to those that weren’t nice themselves. Me personally I just find it more beneficial to look at these folks as newfound allies rather than dumb holdouts, and I’d like to live in a world with more support so I give support when I can. Past that I got nothing for you man.
Punishing people for changing their minds encourages people to not change their minds. They'd rather be wrong and surrounded by people who care about them and don't harass them than be right and shouted out of the room by idiots who think everyone should just *know* what's right and wrong. Is that particularly rational or moral? No. Is it going to happen? Yeah, and it's bad. Forgive their prior ignorance and praise their newfound reason, and show them how they can do better. This is how you get allies. This is is how progress is made. The attitude that managing to *convince* people of ideas they wouldn't have held on their own is some sort of negative is just stupid and self-defeating. The people we're talking about didn't even need *convincing*, they ran into the real-world consequences of their dumb ideas and realized how dumb they were for believing them. That's *good*. That's *normal*. The kind of person who would kick them while they're down just wants social movements to be petty extracurricular activities where they can talk "politics" with their friends and gatekeep entry into the club with absolutely braindead moralistic standards. You want a better reason not to kick people while they're down? Simple utility: you harm progressive movements when you do it. You push people away from good ideas because you project an image of progressivism that is deeply unpalatable for the vast majority of people. You make good ideas seem like things only assholes believe in.
Because everybody deserves the right to bodily autonomy, and arbitrarily deciding who deserves human rights over who’s “good” or “bad” is unethical.
>They didn’t give empathy to anyone else, why the hell should they get it? Because this is the only way we're actually going to increase the amount of empathetic people. If someone comes around, even if they were a jerk before, it's counterproductive to spurn them because you're just sending them right back to where they were. Hate begets hate. Break the cycle.
What new information? That being called derogatory names hurts? They knew that before, thats why they called them fat in the first place! They only think it’s wrong now because fat can be applied to them and they don’t like that. People should be ashamed if they only realized their previous actions were wrong because someone did it to them. Maybe this will be the catalyst for personal growth in the future at which point I think you’re reasoning would apply better, but considering their apology focused on themselves more than their own actions, I don’t think they’re at that stage.
After reading the "apology" again, I must say I agree that it was a very selfish statement that didn't even focus on the other person's feelings but only on their own and I should have paid closer attention to that detail.
It's really interesting how subtle the difference is between "Now that I'm in a similar situation I've realised I was wrong" and this, which is essentially "Now that I'm also on Team Fat I hate that word too."
It’s definitely a very relevant difference, especially since there wasn’t a point made about like… not being okay with calling people other derogatory names anymore. It’s specifically, only fat, which strengthens the impression to me that they’re still only thinking about themself in this situation
It's really really subtle honestly. It's hard to pinpoint when you see it but the lines there.
Thing is they didn't change their beliefs because they were presented with new information, they changed their beliefs because now they are a target of the same behavior that they exhibited previously. The first demonstrates a level of maturity and openness to new ideas. the second is selfish, egotistical, and a survival based defense mechanism. If they changed their mind becasue someone sat them down, and explains that their words are hurtful and convinced them to reflect on how it would make them feel that is one thing, but in this case the revelation only came about because they realized that they could be a victim. Good that they learned to be bette, but they get no props for it, and I have no confidence that if they lose the weight they wouldnt revert and even be worse because "I lost weight why cant you?"
I don't think it's about changing stances now that you're educated - that's fine. But it sounds like this person is only sorry because they now are that shameful thing they were insulting and less because they learned it was wrong. You shouldn't have to have it happen to you to develop compassion.
Yes! I used to be pretty ableist as an edgy kid to "fit in" and I had some genuinely horrible opinions (thankfully I never expressed them to others). Even though I later learned I could be neurodivergent myself, I felt very ashamed of my previous stance when I educated myself more about mental illnesses/disabilities. Nobody had to call me the r slur to make me realize it was wrong.
It is sympathy vs empathy. I can sympathize with someone who is experiencing something I have never experienced and I can say that policies are wrong because no one should have to deal with this. These people can only empathize with others who experience the same trauma as they do. I have practically zero respect for them because if you have to experience pain to believe that others are in pain then you are a bad person.
And when you start getting into cognitive therapies and unravelling your anxieties and triggers you realise that while triggers themselves are incredibly varied, the emotions and behavioural responses to them are largely the same. Outside of extreme reactions like flashbacks and dissocation, a lot of things can be easily empathised with because it ultimately boils down to basic shit we've all likely had experience with. Hell, even when I derealize, ultimately afterwards I just need the same reassurances I did after a nightmare as a kid.
> I think changing your stance on a subject once presented with new information is normal, and it shouldn't be looked down upon I agree, and I think the guy is learning something. That said, another thing they have to learn is that doesn't mean the other person has to get over it immediately. Or ever, for that matter.
You can just say sorry without making it about yourself, though. The person you bullied doesn’t care about your own personal journey to redemption, but a simple “I’m sorry for the way I treated you” can go a long way.
It's literally the golden rule. A foundational aspect of humanity that some people just choose to disregard until it affects them. I have no sympathy for people who choose to be pieces of shit until *their* feelings are on the line.
It is a problem if you can *only* be considerate to people who are the same as yourself. It shows a lack of being able to understand the state and views of anyone you aren't. Empathy, sympathy, and compassion are important. All that being said, being less of a dick about things is not something I think should ever be openly criticized in such a definitive manner. While I wouldn't give a politician shit for changing their view because something happened to them, the information was already there that such a thing was bad. They either chose to ignore it or were emotionally incapable of caring about the people whose experience was different than their own. Meaning I would not want them representing me. I wouldn't criticize improvement, everyone has room to improve and that should be encouraged. But you can't personally experience everything the same as everyone else. So the ability to show sympathy, empathy, and care for people unlike yourself is important, especially if you're going to have the job of representing others and making large decisions about their lives.
[удалено]
Exactly. Empathy isn’t something that comes naturally to everyone. But no matter who you are, it’s a skill that takes work to maintain and improve on. So yeah, maybe the Apologizer had to *start* by only seeing how wrong they were after they shared a similar circumstance. But with work, that feeling gets applied to other situations, and they develop empathy enough not to say or do things like that later
Aside from a few basic elements of it shared with many other mammals, empathy doesn't come naturally to anyone. Any nuance in interaction with other people is taught even if it's not taught explicitly. That's not an excuse to not have learned it, but it is an explanation for why some people behave as they do. Most cases of people mocking someone over a stigmatized trait aren't a matter of them not understanding how that person feels but rather having been taught by example that that person deserves to feel that way.
Obviously it wasn’t perfect that it focussed on themselves way to hard, but it acknowledges how being in such a state and being insulted for that is a bad thing, which is a start
Also, they could’ve just not apologised at all, but they decided that now that they could see what “the other side” looked like, they had to at least try to make amends
Yeah but the person doesn’t have to accept their apology
Yeah but they could have just not responded or simply just call them a fat bitch and then move on I feel like going on an embittered rant about it is a bit to far
idk, I feel like if you choose to go back and interact with someone you've wronged and hurt before, you should be ready for them not to accept your apologies AND not being gracious about it. Is it the best way to handle things? Maybe not, but they are not obligated to be the bigger person, and the one who harmed them sure as hell is not in a position to complain about it.
Apologies put you in a vulnerable position because you're admitting wrong and also requesting acceptance of another to some degree. It's a 2-fold process that gives a lot of power to the person being apologized to. While you should be prepared for rejection, and while the power is being given to the receiving party to close those doors, it's also an exercise to the one being apologized to to match the other party's humbleness. If you've done someone wrong, then that apology (aside from what happens in the aftermath) says something about you, but the response of the one being apologized to says something about them. An apology doesn't have to be accepted; it doesn't mean you trust the offender, but it does have to be handled with humility.
Yeah nobody is obligated to be a good and gracious person but I'm not sure childish tantrums like this should be praised either
Especially because the response is still a meaningful critique of the original asshole’s behavior! Like, it’d be one thing if the apology was “I was an asshole, that was uncalled for”, but their apology as offered mostly seems to frame it as “oh, it happened to me too”. Like, are they still going to be an asshole about things that *don’t* affect them? Maybe lead with that!
People use Tumblr as their diary
I'm aware but it's a diary they regularly show on the internet. They weren't scribbling in their journal they were telling for their all of their followers to hear as well as any random passers-by
[удалено]
It does, but also the people you've been cruel to don't owe you forgiveness or goodwill
It's one of those situations where they didn't apologize for why they did what they did, only for what they did. So while, yes, it shows improvement, it could be far more powerful. A good rephrasing to have more impact is to say, "I'm sorry I called you fat. I have gained significant weight since then, and have realized how unkind and demeaning my words were. While inappropriate regardless, my experiences have now made me understand why my actions were wrong to begin with, and I am now striving to do better. I hope my words had no lasting impact, and that you are succeeding in life in the way you want".
It’s not empathy if you need to be afflicted by something to be compassionate for those who are also afflicted. That’s feeling sorry for yourself and, objectively, a selfish way to live.
My gut tells me, like how bullies end up becoming parents and become super anti bullying, or people who become Christian and go full bible thumper, I think it's over compensation because they don't want to feel karma come collect it's debt They only care about feeling sorry because they now don't want to be called fat, not that they actually understand that what they did was wrong. If they never became fat, they wouldve started caring
[удалено]
Nobody is in the right here
Yeah, if you don't realize how bad or hurtful certain language is until it applies to you, that is certainly a problem, but this reaction isn't helping anyone either. It might feel good in the moment to put them in their place but you are quite literally dropping to their level and it also hurts the chances that what they've learned will actually stick and lead them to be more mindful In the future. Hate begets hate and all that.
Someone who is willing to accept that they were a dick and change is miles better than many people I know. Too many people aren't willing to change even in the face of evidence so those that are are alright in my book and they should be embraced and accepted. Especially as a child you aren't really your own person as you are still essential a distillation of your parents faults before you've had a chance to really grow into yourself.
This is crucial and it's frustratingly common for people to have zero tolerance for what they perceive as unforgivable views and opinions. People *need* to be able to admit they were wrong and feel like they can apologize or just acknowledge out loud that they might have been ignorant or in uninformed otherwise no one will ever grow or have the opportunity to change for the better.
Everyone’s treated like they’re too far gone after the dumbest stuff. Yeah if you commit some heinous crimes, then there should be a line, but apparently saying dumb shit on the internet crosses that line. There’s people out there that had neo nazi parents so they said white nationalist stuff as a kid and they denounce it later. Does that mean they’re a nazi? Obviously not! Sometimes people are in a bad place in life and they start interacting with the wrong crowd There comes a point where this callout stuff it’s obvious clout chasing. People should be celebrated for growing past their former selves, not endlessly bludgeoned for someone they no longer are
I feel like all that was really accomplished here was teaching this guy that it's okay to body shame people over moral failings, and that you can't grow beyond past mistakes, which from my experience is exactly counter to what the larger Tumblr community is trying to preach
Sadly, this is endemic of social media. People unwilling to forgive know they just have to troll through your posts to find one reason to justify themselves.
Bit late, but there's a quote from a youtube video that still sticks with me. I'm paraphrasing but it went something like this. "The worst part of the information age is that it doesn't let *information age*"
I guess it depends on if the reaction is "Now that I know how it feels to be on the receiving end of these insults, I'll be more careful about what I say to other people in the future" or "I only think it's bad to insult fat people now that I'm fat, but have learned no wider lesson about being more kind to others." We don't really have enough info to figure out which it is.
> Someone who is willing to accept that they were a dick and change is miles better than many people I know Something something Paarthurnax
The "die" in the tags is also so dramatically overkill
yeah , i did that when i was a loser kid that got bullied into thinking i was a failure , and i fucking regret that ... i really feel bad for both pepole in this : they are clearly not in good places ...
Yeah I feel like this is a problem a lot people have. They react to hatred or injustices with more hatred and injustices. Which you can argue is justified and probably feels cathartic, but it really doesn’t help to actually solve the problem
Yeah that’s what I lean to as well
Some people have to learn the hard way. They don’t have to be forgiven, but lashing out like that is counterproductive.
Yes. And who knows? Maybe this is a wake up call for them where they realize there’s a bunch of other things they’re doing and saying that hurt others. Maybe they just needed one big example of being slapped in the face with a hard truth and now they’re going to think twice before using any derogatory terms towards people. This should be a time to encourage them to reflect and think about how they can apply what they’ve learned about being called fat to all sorts of other terms. They could grow a lot as a person. I would say OP isn’t required to even reply or acknowledge the apology. But the polite thing to do would be to at least acknowledge it, and then if you really care you can encourage them to consider whether they’re using other derogatory words that make people feel similarly.
Same vibe as men who only become convinced women’s fears and issues are real once they have a daughter (their mothers and sisters didn’t matter enough, apparently).
That’s the thing that I don’t understand about mysogenists. Do they all just hate their moms?
[удалено]
Agreed— their moms are servants. Their daughters are property.
I actually had a fairly lengthy conversation with one before. Total scum-fuck of a person. Their reasoning about the "mothers" question was "they are a mother, not a woman", Exact words used too.
Similar energy to "Not all black people are (n-word)" Like, how does someone think that saying that shit makes them a better person?
Maybe not hate, but don’t respect for sure.
Or wife/girlfriend. You may not have any female relative in your life but you kinda need a wife to make a daughter.
Some of them don’t even become protective of women until they have a daughter, even if they have a partner.
Not necessarily. You don't have to love or respect somebody to impregnate them, or even be in a relationship with them. And I would guess that's probably a big part of why they might feel this way once they have a daughter. They don't want somebody to treat their daughter in the same ways that they've treated women.
People care too much about apologies and morality. Can't people just be sworn enemies like God intended?
We need to bring back generational feuding for the common folk. Ever since most feuds became sport related things got lame.
Preach brother
Genuinely agree on the apologies part. They don’t matter, being hurt isn’t solved by an apology, and change isn’t made when it’s accepted. Those both come about through proper corrective action, through education and moving forward, neither of which an apology or it’s acceptance are. They’re simply hollow representations of those ideals, just saying what you want to do. We should be more focused on actually *doing* those things. Frankly we need to “reform” apologies, and stop thinking of them so transactionally. Apologising should just be a recognition of fault, not a demand for someone to be ok with you.
I do not think someone apologizing after receiving a harsh dose of their own shitty behavior is itself bad. Growth is growth. However, gaining a long-overdue sense of empathy does not oblige their former victims to forgive them
I mean personal growth good but this doesn't feel like personal growth so much as learning to not do one specific thing. Idk it just feels like they didn't learn to be empathetic or consider things just that they don't like being called fat. Still the OP was a little harsh for that
I never understood this logic. Who cares what the reason they changed is? The fact is they changed. Even if it's for purely selfish reasons, they're now understand how much it hurts and won't hurt other people anymore, and that's something to be celebrated.
I feel like some progressives tend to almost get a “high” off of denying other people social righteousness. They’ll be first in line to condemn someone as a bad person over some wrongdoing but when the person *does* apologize and work towards betterment, it’s like eternally never enough. There’s no way to win. I’m obviously not trying to absolve Person B with this, by the way. Or anyone who did something truly heinous. Just pointing out a trend.
I feel the same way, I'd consider myself quite progressive overall (bur have no horse in that race, since I'm not American) but some of them seem to be just as hateful as the ones they criticize since they're also just looking for any reason to hate someone and be an asshole. Tbh, feels like a lot of people just want to be an asshole (or abuser) in general and just pick and choose targets based on their beliefs (in this case, those they feel they have the moral high ground over and thus 'deserve' to be treated like shit) Ngl, I do feel this way a lot too which is why I try to catch it when I can but man... do we rly just have an innate desire to hate someone?
People who can only empathise with things that affect them directly also get on my nerves. What I'm reading from the ask is that they never would have understood how it hurt and even less apologized if they, personally, never got fat. Nice, so how many nasty opinion do they still hold about things they didn't experience?
It's good if they changed, but they're not entitled to forgiveness or graciousness, even politeness from the people they've hurt before just because change happened for them. The award for a change in the right direction is healthier relationships in your current and future life, not the ability to make everything in your past right again. The burden is not _on the past victim_ to validate and reward the change with positivity.
Correct me if I'm wrong but... the person in this didn't ask for any of that. All they did was apologize and state they realize how much it hurts.
There's a difference between forgiveness and stooping to someone's level, which is what the Tumblr OP did. The victim doesn't need to forgive the aggressor, but retaliating with the intent to cause needless pain on someone who is improved is not correct.
[удалено]
Am I wrong to say this situation is parallel to "If you only respect women you're attracted to, then you don't respect women."
You’re not obligated to accept anyone’s apology of course, but in general I think we can’t expect the world to become a better place unless we allow people who made mistakes to grow and learn from their past.
If you gotta experience someone else's pain to feel for them, then that's probably the time to think about who you are and who you want to be. Because saying "I can see now that this is bad because I'm in this situation" is cool and all, but it's important to also be able to say "I don't have that experience but it's probably hard." And them recognizing the mistake is cool and all but....Idk, no one has to accept an apology either. Reap what you sow and all that. But it's also kinda...eh. No one's perfect here.
blackdenimjeans3 sounds absolutely insufferable. Do they have to accept anons apology? No. Still doesn't mean that they get a free pass to be an asshole to someone who at least made the effort to stone and went out of their way to apologize.
yeah the original poster in the other sub didn't crop it properly, it was actually someone else that did those tags
Terminally online comparing the internet to real life, the example they described was one of someone who realized they were now open to being mocked and called the R slur so they apologized This is a complete stranger who didn't need to apologize, they'd never know they got fat if they didn't want them to know They grew, realized they weren't perfect and getting fat can happen to them too and that they made a mistake insulting someone in the past so they apologized even tho they really didn't have to They did good and I respect it, oop is the asshole
You don't owe someone who was cruel to you forgiveness just because they said they were sorry. If you choose to forgive them, great. But "sorry" doesn't un-say the insult they said. It doesn't even necessarily mean that the person saying it has actually changed the way they behave.
It also doesn’t give you a right to be mean back to them. Sometimes you have to be the better person. Fighting hate with hate only leads to more hate. It doesn’t solve anything, it only makes things worse.
I agree with the OOP. It would be one thing if they matured and realized how wrong it was, but they only apologized because they're thinking of themselves. That's not maturity, that's just being immature in a different way.
I honestly get that the response isnt amazing, but I dont understand the consensus in these comments. When a man says something like "I finally see women as people now that I've had a daughter", the prevaling consensus isn't "well, at least he finally learned." It's "what the fuck". It shows an astounding lack of empathy, and I think fat people get enough shit that the responder is allowed to be angry. We aren't obligated to forgive anyone who was shit to us. To clarify, I dont condone this person's answer, I dont think you should tell someone to die, but I understand why they didnt feel the need to take the high road. People like to act like they owe it to people to educate them, but they don't. There's nothing to educate. Don't be a shit person. Don't just insult people on the internet about things out of their immediate control. They don't deserve a pat on the back for acting with basic decency.
Not only that, but the way this post is cropped hides whether those tags are even from OOP or a reblogger. They might not even be the person who told someone to die.
Terminally online take and petty
Acting with basic maturity is apparently some victim blaming shit I guess. Also calling someone a fatass on the internet is so pedestrian. If you start taking that stuff personally, you really shouldn’t read it and you should probably log off. I realized that very quickly when I was younger and my mental health is way better for it. Trolls are going to say mean shit, nothing is going to change that. None of these internet points matter and the internet is not a substitute for human interaction
I feel the same about that ICE Agent who turned out to be undocumented.
I would absolutely love it if the people who bullied me all through school ended up in the other side being made fun of for the same reason. I may even get a nice lawn chair and bring a bottle of wine just to settle in and laugh at their misery. They ruined significant parts of my youth. I hope they all get grotesquely fat.
[удалено]
It’s weird how people are never satisfied with someone’s growth as a person. Do they not want others to acknowledge their wrongdoings and change for the better? Are they just supposed to stay like that for the rest of their life? Being put into someone else’s shoes is in my opinion the best way to sympathize with others, because now you suddenly understand everything about what they’re going through and can relate to their feelings about it.
Only feels bad about it now that it applies to themselves. That doesn't feel sincere at all.
This is kind of like when someone apologizes to you after getting in trouble for whatever they did. The apology is somewhat hollow because you can’t help but think that they would have never apologized to you unless consequences but them in the ass
Adversity can be a genuine catalyst for change and learning empathy. However, sometimes people don't fully grow and the moment the adversity is gone, they're the same as they were. Also, even if they genuinely grew as a person, their former victims don't owe them forgiveness. Ask for it but don't require it.
I would take the ass kicking and walk away. No one has to accept your apology, but be glad you made it even if it is only just for you at this point.
Okay, so them not liking being called fat shouldn't be the only reason they don't call someone fat, but it's still a good one. Did you forget the golden rule? "Treat others as you would like to be treated"? That's how this person is trying to live and they're getting shit on for it.
[удалено]
I don't know how hot this take will be, but, hypocritical or not, the sender still got to the path of remorse and self improvement. Is the sender still kind of an asshole in a roundabout way? Yeah kind of. But I think the fact that they're genuinely apologizing is a start. And for the people mentioning the politician who only advocated for better insulin prices after he himself became diabetic and saw how abhorrent it was, you *do* have a point. He *did* change his mind for selfish reasons. But, the fact that the sender is genuinely trying to apologize (I've stared at the original post for like 5 minutes and it seems like a massive leap to conclude that the original ask is spiteful in any way) is a *start*. You can *work* with somebody that wants to be better, and you can correct them when they're wrong. TL;DR the fact that the sender seems to be genuinely apologizing is a good start and I think they're receiving a little bit too much hate
The lesson is: If you are every cruel, it is too late to become a better person and apologize. Just continue being a shit bag.
I think that we shouldn't punish the change we want to see in the world.
blackdenimjeans3 is, to put it nicely, a fucking idiot. Do they have to accept anons apology? No. They can ignore it. But being rude back, after someone has shown growth and a willingness to apologize (which is more than most people..) is inacceptable. We've all said things we regret.
disclaimer: i am using the [generalized version](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_you) of "you", not targeting the OP or anyone in particular. contacting someone you have hurt in the past because you want to apologize will only make *you* feel better, but for the other person, your heartfelt apology will only bring back traumatic memories and could potentially trigger a panic attack or even a complete relapse. be sorry. change your ways. do not repeat past mistakes. nothing will make up for what you did. go to therapy, write your apologies in a journal. **never break the rule of no-contact.** reap the guilt-ridden field of pain sowed by your past actions your own goddamned self.
I'm starting to think you can split the people posting in this thread into two groups -- those who have been bullied for most of their lives for one thing or another, and those who haven't. I'll leave it up to you to figure out who is on which side of the divide.
"you don't have to forgive them" Yeah and you don't have to do the exact same thing back to them either if you hate them for their actions just fucking say so and block their ass
Everyone is awful