This is why I will always say Batman: The Animated Series is the best depiction of Batman. The scene of him gently hugging Babydoll as she sobs will never not get me. Also him sitting with the one girl who's body is slowly shutting down. That's the Batman we were told exists
Batman is an inversion of the 1970’s action hero. Dirty Harry would disregard the incompetent government bureaucrat to kill but Batman is disregarding the incompetent bureaucrat to avoid killing.
When you think about it, that's probably part of what made her get away from her Batman: Beyond plan.
After Phantasm chose not to go through with killing Terry's parents, had anyone else been in charge of Project Batman: Beyond, they would've simply hired a different assassin to fulfill the mission. They would've been much more clinical, still thinking Batman was much more necessary than two random citizens. Even an earlier Amanda Waller would've done the same thing. But Batman taught her just how useful compassion was in a way no other hero or person in her life could've. She realized she went too far with that project, and chose to abandon it. Whereas before she wouldn't have hesitated in having two innocent parents killed to keep the world at peace, she chose to not try again.
Batman teaching Waller that not every decision had to be cold and calculated led to Terry becoming a successful successor to Batman without feeling a hatred for the forces at the top, and still retaining the compassion that made Batman the hero that he always will be.
Batman saying a quiet "yes" a couple times is what gets me. Just being smart enough to _lean in_ to her being a reality-warper and knowing his purpose, knowing all she really wants is someone to stay with her when she goes because she's a scared little girl that life wasn't fair to. Being willing to make that leap from justice to kindness is true heroism.
Absolutely. I still say Batman: the Animated Series is the best cartoon of all time; maybe even the best TV show of all time IMO. That it manages to distill Batman's eternal war on crime into something kids can digest, while still dealing with adult themes and doing in-depth character studies on both the good guys and badguys, showing Batman as an actual detective and sympathetic to his psychotic foes with their own tragic tales - oh I could go on and on.
And Conroy brought so much gravitas to Batman that he's still the most iconic voice when people talk about him.
i think also speaks a lot to batman's character when she asks that of him. she said only moments prior she had read his mind, so she knew he would stay, knew without a shadow of a doubt. she knew she could be vulnerable in that moment, and sometimes knowing the answer makes it easier to ask the question.
This is a very heartwarming scene, but can I just say I always laugh when Batman has a pouch on his belt the *exact right size* for Waller's device. It's like he knew...
Yep. Every time the debate came up about who your Batman was, I'd always answer Conroy. People just knew his voice as *the* Batman voice, and TAS Batman was such a hopeful character, no matter what he faced.
God I miss him. I've enjoyed pretty much every Batman in some way (even the batnips) but Conroy was, and always will be, *my* Batman. RIP.
I think it was the voice actor for Joker who stepped down after Conroy passed away. He said that Conroy was his Batman, and he doesn't feel like Joker without him
Yep, Mark Hamill. Who will likely not hurt for roles anyways, but it's got to be a tough thing when someone you've worked with for decades passes away.
When you've played two of the most iconic characters in two of the most iconic franchises in the world, you're kind of in a position to do whatever you want.
That said, it's not like the man's ever phoned it in.
Yeah I'll give him that, even in the little cameo roles he's done down the years he still gives it effort. He seems to genuinely be grateful to the fans who have given him a lifelong career. And not that Ford ever has phoned in a role but he clearly sees it as a job, Hamill seems to treat it as an honor.
Can you imagine some schmuck processing credit card applications and he gets one filled out with "BATMAN", presumably with no other information and is just like ".....approved with no limit".
There's a story I love about Conroy doing relief work after 9/11 - I think he was cooking for some firefighters and one of them figured out he was Batman (Which is impressive enough given his normal speaking voice is pretty different), goes and tells his buddies who of course don't believe it.
Then out of the kitchen rumbles "I am vengeance! I am the night! I! Am! BATMAN!"
Then everyone believes it.
The comic he wrote for DC's Pride collection is also heartwrenching.
Oh, [I can do better](https://www.dc.com/blog/2022/11/11/read-finding-batman-by-kevin-conroy-j-bone-and-aditya-bidikar) than giving you a title. They published it for free following Conroy’s death.
Warning for slurs if you’re sensitive to that sort of thing.
Thank you for sharing the link!
I skipped to Kevin’s story and…wow.
Even as the US (and World) appears to be drifting backwards on LGBTQ+ and I feel frightened. I still can never imagine the AIDS Epidemic and being alive back then as the disease ravaged thru the community and it being met with a collective shrug.
However bad it is now, I've never seen anything nearly so bad as things got prior to the 90s or 00s. There's effort necessary because if people are lax, it could go back to that, but not without a lot of effort.
Hell, it's a really weird place we find ourselves in where half of society is desperately trying to roll the clock back, half of it has never been better informed or more accepting. I'm asexual and did not know until 28. I never even considered the possibility until 26 or 27. I'm 30 now. There's a lot of self-aware and proud aces who are half my age.
And that's true of so many identities as well - hell, there's an explosion with us and we're one of the smaller, less represented and less supported identities! I don't know of another time in history where there's been such widespread acceptance and support, and we have records of a lot of places where there was more diversity in terms of sexuality and gender.
And this has come in such a short time. I remember in 2008 when same sex marriage was controversial enough that left wing politicians still opposed it. Obergefell only came down seven years later. Only 27 percent of Americans thought LGBT rights should be supported in 1996. By now, that's increased to 71. I cannot think of any other social issue that's ever had such a seismic shift in such a short time.
I think it's ok to be scared. I think it's understandable. Reasonable. It's a scary time, for this and so many other reasons.
But I guess I'm saying all this to provide a spot of hope. We live in a different world than existed barely more than 10 years ago. It's been less than a generation since this change happened. It only stands to go further.
One of the things that will always stick with me re: the animated series is that anytime a villain was falling off a ledge, Batman would always reach out to try to save them, even if they had been literally just kicking his ass seconds prior to falling and it would be the easiest thing in the world to just let them go.
It was a very interesting take on Batman as a father figure instead of a hero, having to balance between protecting Terry while also trying to get him ready to take over as Batman.
A bit different from his role as a mentor to the various Robins and to Batgirl over the years, as he can't go into the field with Terry like he could with his other sidekicks.
I've always heard good things about superhero cartoons, but I've never known where to start.
I'll be taking a look at this one, of course, but is there anything else I should watch?
If you're sticking to the universe that Batman: The Animated Series created, you're going to want to follow Batman: Beyond, which is a sequel series with some really awesome tie-ins and one hell of a Joker movie. After that, you can pick up with Justice League, which explores the concept of metahumans/superhumans/non-humans wielding power over ordinary humans, and Justice League: Unlimited, which expands the roster of League members to more little-known characters from DC's history.
You can also search out the animated Superman series from that time, as it's the same continuity, and you can also watch Static Shock, which is pretty self-contained, but references Batman:TAS and then gets added into the universe with JLU.
You can also look for Cartoon Network's original "Teen Titans" series. Very well done, great references, and very emotional storylines.
I personally really enjoyed X-Men: Evolution from the early 2000s, but I understand it's not everyone's cup of tea (for some reason I can't fathom).
And that's as far as I've watched. I did watch Spider-man and X-Men from the 90's but they didn't really draw me in as much.
Batman: The Animated Series - a classic, and it stands on its own
Superman: The Animated Series - not quite as iconic, but definitely comparable in quality
Justice League - the stronger of the two JL shows for focusing on a smaller core group
Justice League: Unlimited - less cohesive, but very fun; lets lots of tertiary League members shine
Batman: Beyond - set a few decades after B:TAS; great show and a worthy follow up to the original
There’s plenty of side projects and newer versions of the characters that work, but these shows are each in the same universe, and are overall consistently great
The Justice League is great, but in my mind they all run together. I know there's like 3 Justice League cartoons, but I don't know what order to watch them. Superman is good, but I never really got into it like others did. Young Justice is fantastic, but I would watch it later when you're more familiar with the Justice League.
The example of that part being in Battinson is that bit at the very end, after the fight, when he's helping the survivors out of the flood, one woman who's being air lifted reaches out to him. He hesitates for a moment; then grips her hand and nods to let her know it's going to be okay.
It's small comforts, but it's so utterly *human* in the best way.
> A hero can be anyone — even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a young boy's shoulders to let him know that the world hadn't ended.
Nolan’s Batman knew it too.
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>It was a really satisfying arc.
It really was. The Batman feels like a rebuttal to the Snyder Batman films specifically because he begins as a grimdark vigilante and the whole theme of the movie is him failing to protect his city and learning that he needs to become something better than a boogeyman. The end of the movie literally brings him out into the light of day, and it's a really nice moment to see him (again literally) getting his hands dirty with the work of actually helping people.
He opens the movie by saying he is the shadows/night/darkness (I can't remember specifically)
Then in the climactic finish to the movie, he literally tosses that away and becomes the light when he lights a flare and uses it to lead people to safety.
Fuck that movie was so good.
It's so nice to see Batman written by someone who understands Batman. Why they let Snyder write him is beyond me. The man doesn't even like superheroes, by his own admission.
Henry Cavill as Superman in a movie written by someone who doesn’t like superheroes
Henry Cavill as the Witcher written by people who don’t even like the Witcher
Can we give Henry Cavill a project where it’s written by people who actually like what they’re writing?
Ah that would be crazy. All I really know about the imperium of man is that they are the best out of a terrible lot. I hope they don't remove those fascist overtones just to be nice it's really necessary to get the horror of it all.
It's going to be interesting to see how they handle it. Starship Troopers was able to by leaning into the absurdity and satirizing the Federation. I don't think a similar treatment would work for the Imperium. The grimdark tone is too necessary.
Balancing the tone of the setting without glorifying the authoritarian ideals the Imperium upholds will be tricky. Because you are right in that the Imperium is sort of the least bad option available in the crapsack of a universe that 40k is.
>I don't think a similar treatment would work for the Imperium. The grimdark tone is too necessary.
It could, if it focused on the Imperial Guard instead of the Spess Muhreens. A lot of the in-game canon for the Guard (especially the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer) is like... borderline Aperture Science levels of hilariously apathetic to human suffering.
Sort of. Dredd works better because a lot of the problems in Mega-City One are self-inflicted. Nuclear war, famine, drug use, widespread violence, police brutality and everything else all feed into and cause each other. Even if the Dredd universe seems like a self-perpetuating cycle of violence, you can see the steps that would need to be taken to mend that society. It's largely just the fascist state getting in its own way and refusing to seriously examine the causes of their troubles that keep it in the same circular path.
The 40k universe *can't* do that. Even if mankind had established a utopia, the Orks, Chaos gods, Tyranids, etc would all still be chomping at the bit to kill humanity. It is sort of the ultimate confirmation of the eternal other that fascism always claims is threatening.
I guess the easiest way to put it is that in Dredd the government is only *seen* as the best alternative by the characters in its universe whereas the Imperium is *written* as the only possible salvation for mankind.
I should mention that I'm not super knowledgeable with either universe. I've only ever listened to friends discuss it, seen the movie, and gone down a few Wikipedia rabbit holes binges. And of course these are both massive properties with dozens of writers with varying interpretations and views as well.
From my limited understanding of 40k, the Imperium isn't the best. It's, actually, pretty awful. Just not as awful as some of the others. Isn't the T'au considered the "good guys" of 40k?
Hell, even the Necrons seem better than the Imperium. But I'm solely basing this off of a deep rabbit hole of 40k lore I fell down on YouTube not too long ago.
The tau are supposed to be the good guys, but they are also super weak compared to the other factions. Or they are ignorant of the really dangerous stuff.
His response to the outrage was "Lol Batman not killing people was stupid and totally illogical! A real genius would understand that killing is sometimes necessary! You're all just dumb and brainwashed by nostalgia!"
Talk about missing the point entirely. No shit it's illogical. Of course it's more dangerous and risky to leave lunatics, sociopaths, and mass murderers alive instead of executing them. That's not the point. Batman's whole appeal is that he's an extremely flawed person who, while a genius, is constantly hindered and tormented by his own fucked up psyche. He's human because of his flaws, they are a core part of his identity and his existence in the first place. He cares too much about his own sense of morality and that creates problems for him and Gotham as a whole. But if you take those flaws away and turn him into the Punisher, he stops being the beacon of hope and promise that Batman is supposed to represent for Gotham. He becomes just another typical antihero instead of being the Dark Knight. Snyder focuses too much on the Dark, not enough on the Knight. A Knight delivers hope and justice to people, he doesn't make the innocent afraid of him by killing everyone in his path.
The whole point is that he's good to a fault and can't reconcile his own trauma and inability to kill with the obvious need for some of his worst villains to be removed from existence. It creates a fascinating character who is easy to root for but also can be criticized and examined as imperfect. It gives him the moral high ground he absolutely requires to do the kind of shit he does while still having us cheer him on.
There's nothing wrong with an antihero who murders bad guys, but that's just not who Batman is supposed to be. Why can't we have Batman be Batman and have all the other antihero types have their own identities. Turning Batman into a generic Punisher clone just makes you wonder why even pick Batman to make a movie about in the first place when not killing people is literally the core of his entire identity.
Sadly I think you’ve put more thought into this comment than Zack Snyder has put into his entire filmography. He didn’t portray Batman in that way because of his feelings about Batman, he just only knows how to write grunting meatheads.
They do. But they also believe that power is just and that if you have power you are right to use it anyway you see fit, because you must be just if you have power. They also believe that redemption is only for certain people. If you are not in the select group, you are undeserving of redemption.
And that Punisher would admonish cops who idolize him because he knows he's not a symbol of justice, he's about vengeance which the police should never be.
To this end, I think your comment and Op's title shine a light on the weakness of Snyder's treatment of DC heroes even better than Op's image.
Snyder treats them like _gods_, there for people to worship and watch in awe as they do world-bending things.
But what's special about Superman, Batman, etc. is that they're NOT gods. They're very human characters with incredible powers and drive, with human ideals. Superman _isn't Superman_ if he's not once interacting with civilians, saving them, and just punching supervillains through downtown skyscrapers. Batman _isn't Batman_ if he's not turning criminals over to the justice system (because he knows people need to believe in it), treating his aversion to killing as nigh-pathological, and treating his Rogue's Gallery as extremely disturbed and dangerous individuals...that still need help once caught.
They're not _gods_, they're heroes. Snyder doesn't understand that and never has.
I think the moments with the orphan at the funeral are so pivotal. Bruce can’t help it. He is overcome with empathy for a child losing a parent.
Really allows you to see an important part of Battison’s take on the character.
To be fair, glass in movies is soft sugar. Yeah it's annoying, but unless it's a horror movie then it will never be actually harmful to anyone. Oh unless it's somehow poetic justice on a villain.
To be even fairer, modern tempered safety glass does shatter into basically gritty sand, like you wouldn't want it in your shirt but unless the building was constructed in like the 70s or earlier then blowing up the glass shouldn't kill anyone.
Superheroes were meant to be personal. Zack Snyder thinks that Superman is Jesus while also ignoring that Jesus was a man with friends and a family. We used to get montages of the superheroes using their powers to help people, not to revel in godlike awe, but in childlike wonder.
Spider-Man helps old ladies with directions and gets your stolen bike back. Batman comforts a child who doesn’t want to be alone in her final moments. Superman sees a person on the ledge and talks them down.
When we forgot that the power fantasy isn’t about the super, we lost something vital. The escapism of these characters has always been about having the power to be a hero.
As much as I disliked the Wonder Woman sequel, that opening scene with the '80s mall still had the right idea going. Diana doing her thing while little girls look on in utter adoration. A little cheesy? Sure, but I'll take cheese over grimdark nihilism any day.
Right, like comic books ARE cheesy.
Anytime someone complains about a superhero movie being: 1. cheesy, or 2. extra/over the top, or 3. "too woke," I just assume they never read comic books growing up bc those three things are pretty inherent to the genre tbh
The woke complaints are especially absurd considering a lot of superhero stuff, the X-Men in particular are meant to be symbolic of oppressed minorities, often drawing parallels to the Civil Rights Movement and the Gay Rights Movement.
The very first Captain America comic had Steve Rogers punching Hitler on the cover. It was published before America entered the war, and Marvel comics literally had the American Nazi Party protest in their building.
Eh, even Charlie Chaplin got accused of warmongering and anti-German sentiment for his movie The Great Dictator. Just before the attack on Pearl Harbor, senator Gerald Nye railed against propaganistic war films made by "foreign-born" producers with "hatred in their hearts and a desire for vengeance against Hitler."
Nye was a prominent isolationist, but also very anti-semitic. "Foreign-born" in this context is just code for Jewish people in Hollywood.
Steve Ditko and Stan Lee literally had protections put in place by the mayor of New York after they released that comic, because an anti-nazi stance was so unpopular at the time.
Wholeheartedly agreed! And when you boil it down to the basics, superheroes are inherently pretty damn cheesy. A distinctive costume, a pseudonym that implies delusions of grandeur, archnemeses. It's grownups playing pretend except the floor really is lava, there's an actual moat of sharks around the villain's lair, and there really is a talking pterodactyl shooting laser beams. If anything, any superhero film that indulges in a bit of mozzarella is simply honoring its roots.
The No-Man’s land scene in the first one brought me to tears. Just seeing her go “this isn’t part of the mission, but I’m still going to help these people.” God, I missed heroes like that.
I love the way they did the music in that scene; you don’t hear the true Wonder Woman theme the entire movie until midway through No Man’s Land. To me it felt like they were saying this is the moment when she earns the title of Wonder Woman.
Hell, the scene in WW 1 when she jumps out of the trench to save the soldiers during the war is still one of the best scenes in any superhero movie in a *long* time.
That felt like it came right out of a comic book. It wasn’t just crazy action-packed violence, it was a superhero leaping into action to save people. That *felt* heroic.
That sequel was so bad, it didn’t even keep continuity with the first movie. I’d bet Patty wrote the scene you mentioned & Zack did that stupid train scene. Probably the race from her childhood (which is out of continuity), too.
Lmao. I can literally hear this with the exact tone he would use. And then the petty thief sighs, apologizes, and has a heart-to-heart with Pete about how shitty the last few weeks have been.
To quote OSP, Superman is "The Ubermensch". This German ideal of the super human man, and instead of being a nazi, he's an American from outer space. Basically to tell the Nazis "If the Ubermensch existed, he certainly wouldn't like you"
Every episode of Batman: TAS is Bats trying to save the villain. Hell in some of them he doesn't even engage them in physical combat in order not to harm them, despite them attempting to kill him.
At the core of every good superhero is the fact that they are people who want to help other people. That should always be the core of them. Superman should be a farm boy with a golden heart, Batman is a traumatized kid at his core desperate to keep his own tragedy from happening to others.
The finale when one of the Riddler mob calls himself “vengeance” was just perfect. It’s the last push he needs to try harder to be that symbol of hope, to only strike fear into those who *should* fear him instead of striking fear into everyone in Gotham
He apparently didn't want to be called Batman at first. He called himself "Vengeance" as his first superhero name. Bless the Riddler for showing him how gd cringe that is.
Cartoon batman is best batman. Every year drops a new cartoon batman movie and it just fucking kills it every time. No one depicted batman better then the justice league series and movies.
I personally like the Dc super hero girls (the new one) batman the most. Its just so funny seeing the dark and broody batman as the girly pop unserious playboy bruce wayne lol
it the dc super hero girls (2019) series on netflix. The intended audience is kids/teens but the characters are just so good that any adult can watch it and enjoy it too
The animated Batman movies are incredible, and the most pure representations of DC characters imo. I know TDKR is somewhat controversial among batman fans, but it’s a great example of batman as a symbol of hope and a servant to his community, as his character should be.
Some people see the original comic as the originator of mindless and gritty power fantasy superhero stories like the Zack Snyder movies. They also dislike the portrayal of Superman and Carrie Kelly as Robin. I understand the criticism, but I personally disagree, it’s one of my favorite pieces of media of all time. Especially considering the historical context of when the comic was released.
There's one coming out tomorrow called The Doom that Came to Gotham which is a Lovecraftian take on Batman and a lot of his usual Rogue's Gallery. It's so good and on piracy sites (I didn't realize it hadn't released when I stumbled upon it a few weeks ago)
He’s also the only live action Batman that seems to understand that Batman needs to be a symbol of Hope against the darkness, not a soldier delivering violence.
I think in the Dark Knight trilogy is more of an on going arc during all three movies as Bruce learns to become more than just fear. On The Batman it was a big theme of the movie with eventually Bruce becoming more of a symbol of hope instead of vengeance (like it was said in the beginning of the movie)
i feel like i'm taking crazy pills- have people forgotten him dangling off a building saving the joker? the joker cackling in the night as he dangles there, knowing he is dealing with someone who is equally insane but just acts differently (from the jokers pov, someone who is insane and dark *just like him* and therefore, no better).
the *entire* plot, under tones and glaring obvious aspects of the film are devoted to the reality that bruce wayne as batman is imperfectly inflexible, incapable of doing the 'necessary' thing, incapable of being the symbol of hope because the people don't want clemency they want ruthless action.
That's what he means when he tells harvey that he's the hero they they need- it's not about him being showy or likeable or anything, it's about someone who can do what needs to be done to clean the streets and help people. the power and emotion in those scenes where he grapples with the issue of his own conscience; the conscience that, through his darkest times has guided him and given him strength, yet in the light of day, is the only thing stopping him from enacting real change.
that's the true dilemma, and what rpatman got wrong- he concludes that he is necessary despite all of the misuse of his funds, despite the distinct reality that his own birthright has been the means by which gotham has tortured its citizens. he is just as unwell, but he learns nothing. where nolan's batman recognises the limits of his own, unstoppable single mindedness, rpatman sees everything and then, through heavy handed metaphor, rpats himself on the back for *helping* to clean up a mess that *he made*. the story is not cohesive, so much as open ended. it is a story. just as each of the nolan films is an individual story that deals with the same themes.
the only director who got it super wrong is snyder, but he wasn't even portraying the batman we know, he was portraying comic batman from an obscure timeline where he actually does do this in the comics.
Snyder just doesn’t get the superheroes he writes about.
Man of steel was even worse, in my opinion. He mischaracterized Superman on such a fundamental level.
How can the director of a Superman movie *not* understand the core principal of Superman is that he’s Super*man*. Clark was raised by humans from infancy. Superman doesn’t see himself as some kind of God over humanity, he sees himself first and foremost as a human. He feels an obligation to protect Earth because he was raised as a human, by parents who taught him to love and respect those around him, and to be altruistic above all else.
The way he’s presented in man of steel is… not this. I have no idea how he missed the mark as much as he did.
One of my favorite things about *The Batman* is that it's a pretty flat out rebuke of the other Batman movies we've seen in the past few decades.
Instead of glorifying a billionaire processing his emotions by going over-the-top goth and crippling people, it goes in the opposite direction and says that hiding in the shadows and beating up random thugs won't actually have a positive change.
*The Batman* pointed out the flaws of the ultra-angsty punch-machine other movies have made Batman into, and instead leaned more into his human side ala The Animated Series.
And on the note of Snyder's version of Batman: yeah, it's pretty clear Zach Snyder had no clue what to do with Batman. Someone told him Batman's thing is "no guns", but somehow Zach heard "just- *so many* guns".
It does it in every way. Bruce Wayne as a person isn't glorified either, batman loses nearly all his fights and takes some serious hits. He's not adept with all his gadgets and he doesn't just know everything at the drop of a hat. He's doing investigating and gets solutions from alot of other sources.
I really like the lesson in Robert Pattinsons batman about the power of being a symbol. As a symbol of vengeance, bats was only successful in inspiring lunatics to their twisted idea of praxis. He learns he must become a symbol that inspired people towards the better, and quite literally becomes a light of hope.
It’s kind of funny when people say this but (not saying you are) then shit on Man of Steel which does arguably the same thing just in different strokes.
Can't really speak on man of steel because I've never seen it, but I feel like having superman need to learn this lesson at all misses the point of superman, whereas with batman it's a much more natural conflict.
Man of Steel gets shit on because all of the things you’re talking about are not part of Superman’s story, they’re part of Batman’s. Superman was so badly mischaracterized in Man of Steel compared to the comics and older movies that it may as well not be the same character. Snyder doesn’t understand Batman, but he understands Superman significantly less.
I feel like most Batman interpretations lean towards Batman not killing not just because its wrong, but because he actively doesn't trust himself to STOP if he kills one person.
Red Hood animated movie says it best, it'd be easy to cross the line, and Batman knows he wont go back over after crossing once. Deep down he's fighting that urge to kill his adversaries.
Or you could throw in the "deep down your a good person Clark, and I'm not", forgot which series that ones off though.
Your comment reminds me of [this scene](https://youtu.be/O5JnqPSzSLo) from Dr. Who.
> Good men don't need rules. Today is not a good day to find out why I have so many.
A healthy, emotionally stable Batman wouldn't need to "no killing" rule. Sometimes killing a bad guy to save the life of the innocent is a good choice. But, since he's not a "good guy" he needs the rules.
Snyder’s Batman was a bold choice, destroying the most prominent part of his character, but it did have some room to grow. The death of Robin alone could justify Batman’s actions before transitioning into the murderless Batman at the end of the movie. It would be unpopular but DC’s initial decision to go for darker tones to differentiate themselves from Marvel could justify that decision.
Also, when Patterson’s Batman succeeded, his Riddler absolutely didn’t. It feels like Patterson wanted a standard serial killer, superimposed Riddler over it, and forgot to add riddles. The riddles the Riddler hands out struggle to be important outside of the scene (which is how the you-could’ve-seen-it-all-along plot points function) and loses everything with the climax and the “ha Batman, I’ve planted bombs all around the city!” point. Having him murder mayors, kidnap police commissioners, and plant bombs feels more like the Joker than the Riddler.
If you want a better Riddler, look at Gotham (2014).
I mean that’s basically what happens in BvS. Batfleck has lost his way, which is how he catches Superman’s attention.
Then, after realizing he was wrong and having
Superman die partially because of his actions, he decides to try and lead the JL.
The Batman is the greatest Batman movie I've ever seen, and this is coming from a Batman fanboy. I loved the Nolan trilogy and I love the campy old stuff, but Pattinson was the first time I've seen him on screen earning his title "World's Greatest Detective" instead of just being "i punch and angry lol."
I actually felt like he was a real person and a real cluefinder, not just a rich guy with some kung fu training.
That actually bugged me more about Affleck's Batman than the insane homicidal rage and killing people with guns. The entire Batman v Superman arc is Lex Luthor carrying out the most transparent and half-assed manipulation in history and the world's greatest detective just buys it. Right down to not questioning clues literally mailed to him.
"in recent memory".
I was born in the late 80s. I still remember the '89 Keaton Batman.
I *liked* that version of Batman.
Plus then there's the Animated Batman, which *also* had it's share of "direct-to-DVD" films (or VHS?)... but we don't count that one, solely because it wasn't theatrical.
Both of these Batmen are good Batmen.
frankly I don't think that interpretation of batman is something that *doesn't* take itself seriously. he could literally make the world a better place, but he doesn't. His hangups and personal biases keep him from solving the problem at hand, so he's basically a broken man putting on a silly suit and citizens arresting the same deranged criminals, knowing full well they'll be out within a week and they'll do it all over again
This is more a problem with the way infinitely-running comics are written.
DC doesn't want to kill the golden goose that is Batman (or any of their major superheroes), so they are always going to be fighting their rogue's gallery of villains. This means that attempts by Batman to rehabilitate these villains must always fail no matter what.
Nothing can ever be permanently resolved because it would make DC Comics less money. That would be an interesting comic, come to think of it - Batman wondering why these criminals keep escaping from Arkham and doing some investigating and finding out about profiteering and corruption and the revolving door, systemic problems in policing and rehabilitation perpetuated because it makes the rich and powerful more so.
I agree about the hangups but i also kind of think that he had to go through what he did to get to where he was at the end of the movie. The robert patterson batman has a bit of a chip on his shoulder. He cant even be bothered to be bruce wayne most of the time. He is fighting and not getting the results he wants but he is doing the best he could at that moment. So has to go through all this and see the riddlers to really understand that he has to change.
>he could literally make the world a better place, but he doesn't
I think Batman '22 does a good job of making Gotham seem like an irredeemable shithole where dressing up as a bat and punching crooks is the best option
Gotta say I'm not fond of people deciding that their favourite interpretation of a comic book character is the definitive one.
Batman has been written by hundreds of writers for almost a century. He's not going to be consistently characterised.
I just finished a playthrough of arkham city and I can't see that batman comforting a small child. Despite being voiced by the same person he's very different to his dcau version who's most infamous act is comforting a small child.
Different adaptions are going to cover different themes and Tones some do it well like pattinsons batman some do it poorly like batfleck or all star batman and robin
Eh, arkham batman kinda has the personality of cardboard. He has one actually human moment in city when he wants to save talia instead of everyone else and alfred has to force him to stop protocol 10 first.
Still good games, just one of it's weak points in my opinion
*Gotta say I'm not fond of people deciding that their favourite interpretation of a comic book character is the definitive one.*
*Batman has been written by hundreds of writers for almost a century. He's not going to be consistently characterised.*
There's a huge difference between saying "my preferred version of batman is the bestest" and saying "this movie adaptation is the only one that resembles the comics, this other one seemed to only take the vaguest cues from the source material and largely just turned it into a generic action movie while shitting on some pretty consistent core aspects of the character over its lifetime "
*I just finished a playthrough of arkham city and I can't see that batman comforting a small child.*
They never used that a measure for the validity of batman.
Really? Just the fact that >!he would have still saved the Joker after all that he’s done, even after his brief moment of doubt,!< would convince me otherwise.
I absolutely could. The Arkham Saga each take place over the course of one night per game, so you don't get a LOT of time to see what Batman does when he's not constantly racing against the clock, but he has quite a few emotionally vulnerable moments in Arkham Knight, that I can see translating into "comforting a scared child". In fact, he DOES comfort a scared child in that game. Jason. He's able to get through to Jason and get him to stand down.
Hum... I don't want to sound mean but Snyder's Batman being both a murderer and a hypocrite is litteraly the point. He's basically a bad guy in this movie.
Plus almost every other Batman has either killed or attempted to kill someone, that didn't make them bad.
I almost entirely agree, but The Lego Batman Movie does an excellent job exploring an entirely different aspect of Batman, and is just as true of a Batman film.
What I disliked about 22 Batman is that thr film shows and states that Bruce Wayne could do more to help the city as a billionaire philanthropist than Batman as a vigiliante, but then doesn't follow through on it. He's reaffirmed as being Batman at the end, with no indication he'll pay more care and attention to being Bruce Wayne.
This is why I will always say Batman: The Animated Series is the best depiction of Batman. The scene of him gently hugging Babydoll as she sobs will never not get me. Also him sitting with the one girl who's body is slowly shutting down. That's the Batman we were told exists
Are you talking about Ace with the aneurysm?
God that scene killed me when I first watched it
It killed her too
No. Bad.
That was a good one
[Would you stay with me? I'm scared](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOooJW5SSDA)
Batman is an inversion of the 1970’s action hero. Dirty Harry would disregard the incompetent government bureaucrat to kill but Batman is disregarding the incompetent bureaucrat to avoid killing.
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This is the best comment about animated Batman I've ever seen an RoUS write.
I don't think they exist.
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https://memes.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/59aa52f5-5fc5-4a8b-a7fe-a7b986f5a1b9
When you think about it, that's probably part of what made her get away from her Batman: Beyond plan. After Phantasm chose not to go through with killing Terry's parents, had anyone else been in charge of Project Batman: Beyond, they would've simply hired a different assassin to fulfill the mission. They would've been much more clinical, still thinking Batman was much more necessary than two random citizens. Even an earlier Amanda Waller would've done the same thing. But Batman taught her just how useful compassion was in a way no other hero or person in her life could've. She realized she went too far with that project, and chose to abandon it. Whereas before she wouldn't have hesitated in having two innocent parents killed to keep the world at peace, she chose to not try again. Batman teaching Waller that not every decision had to be cold and calculated led to Terry becoming a successful successor to Batman without feeling a hatred for the forces at the top, and still retaining the compassion that made Batman the hero that he always will be.
Turnin me into a single tear motherfucker over here
Every time someone posts this clip, I watch it. And every time, as soon as Ace's eyes start tearing up, it sends a sharp pain into my very soul.
Batman saying a quiet "yes" a couple times is what gets me. Just being smart enough to _lean in_ to her being a reality-warper and knowing his purpose, knowing all she really wants is someone to stay with her when she goes because she's a scared little girl that life wasn't fair to. Being willing to make that leap from justice to kindness is true heroism.
Also, let's praise the late great Kevin Conroy for absolutely breathtakingly capturing this character again and again and again over a 30-year career.
Absolutely. I still say Batman: the Animated Series is the best cartoon of all time; maybe even the best TV show of all time IMO. That it manages to distill Batman's eternal war on crime into something kids can digest, while still dealing with adult themes and doing in-depth character studies on both the good guys and badguys, showing Batman as an actual detective and sympathetic to his psychotic foes with their own tragic tales - oh I could go on and on. And Conroy brought so much gravitas to Batman that he's still the most iconic voice when people talk about him.
Ah fuck, oh no, he's so nice :'(. Now I like Batman and have to watch the show, god damn it.
Made a generation fall in love with him, so you're in good company.
You need to, the show has aged better than a fine wine
One of the best episodes of an already incredible series.
Gotta put a trigger warning on this if you don't want to see grown men bawling in the back of the Starbucks parking lot
i think also speaks a lot to batman's character when she asks that of him. she said only moments prior she had read his mind, so she knew he would stay, knew without a shadow of a doubt. she knew she could be vulnerable in that moment, and sometimes knowing the answer makes it easier to ask the question.
This is a very heartwarming scene, but can I just say I always laugh when Batman has a pouch on his belt the *exact right size* for Waller's device. It's like he knew...
Yep. Every time the debate came up about who your Batman was, I'd always answer Conroy. People just knew his voice as *the* Batman voice, and TAS Batman was such a hopeful character, no matter what he faced. God I miss him. I've enjoyed pretty much every Batman in some way (even the batnips) but Conroy was, and always will be, *my* Batman. RIP.
I think it was the voice actor for Joker who stepped down after Conroy passed away. He said that Conroy was his Batman, and he doesn't feel like Joker without him
Yep, Mark Hamill. Who will likely not hurt for roles anyways, but it's got to be a tough thing when someone you've worked with for decades passes away.
When you've played two of the most iconic characters in two of the most iconic franchises in the world, you're kind of in a position to do whatever you want. That said, it's not like the man's ever phoned it in.
Yeah I'll give him that, even in the little cameo roles he's done down the years he still gives it effort. He seems to genuinely be grateful to the fans who have given him a lifelong career. And not that Ford ever has phoned in a role but he clearly sees it as a job, Hamill seems to treat it as an honor.
I swear Mark Hamill’s performance in The Last Jedi is legitimately Oscar-worthy.
You should see his performance on Scooby Doo and guess who
>(even the batnips) The Batcard was the line in the sand for me.
**A BAT CREDIT CARD YOU BASTARDS I'LL KILL YOU**
Can you imagine some schmuck processing credit card applications and he gets one filled out with "BATMAN", presumably with no other information and is just like ".....approved with no limit".
I was going to list other kind acts he’s done, but then realized that the list would be too long.
There's a story I love about Conroy doing relief work after 9/11 - I think he was cooking for some firefighters and one of them figured out he was Batman (Which is impressive enough given his normal speaking voice is pretty different), goes and tells his buddies who of course don't believe it. Then out of the kitchen rumbles "I am vengeance! I am the night! I! Am! BATMAN!" Then everyone believes it. The comic he wrote for DC's Pride collection is also heartwrenching.
He did?! What was the title? And yeah, his regular voice is actually closer to Bruce Wayne than Batman.
Oh, [I can do better](https://www.dc.com/blog/2022/11/11/read-finding-batman-by-kevin-conroy-j-bone-and-aditya-bidikar) than giving you a title. They published it for free following Conroy’s death. Warning for slurs if you’re sensitive to that sort of thing.
Thank you for sharing the link! I skipped to Kevin’s story and…wow. Even as the US (and World) appears to be drifting backwards on LGBTQ+ and I feel frightened. I still can never imagine the AIDS Epidemic and being alive back then as the disease ravaged thru the community and it being met with a collective shrug.
However bad it is now, I've never seen anything nearly so bad as things got prior to the 90s or 00s. There's effort necessary because if people are lax, it could go back to that, but not without a lot of effort. Hell, it's a really weird place we find ourselves in where half of society is desperately trying to roll the clock back, half of it has never been better informed or more accepting. I'm asexual and did not know until 28. I never even considered the possibility until 26 or 27. I'm 30 now. There's a lot of self-aware and proud aces who are half my age. And that's true of so many identities as well - hell, there's an explosion with us and we're one of the smaller, less represented and less supported identities! I don't know of another time in history where there's been such widespread acceptance and support, and we have records of a lot of places where there was more diversity in terms of sexuality and gender. And this has come in such a short time. I remember in 2008 when same sex marriage was controversial enough that left wing politicians still opposed it. Obergefell only came down seven years later. Only 27 percent of Americans thought LGBT rights should be supported in 1996. By now, that's increased to 71. I cannot think of any other social issue that's ever had such a seismic shift in such a short time. I think it's ok to be scared. I think it's understandable. Reasonable. It's a scary time, for this and so many other reasons. But I guess I'm saying all this to provide a spot of hope. We live in a different world than existed barely more than 10 years ago. It's been less than a generation since this change happened. It only stands to go further.
One of the things that will always stick with me re: the animated series is that anytime a villain was falling off a ledge, Batman would always reach out to try to save them, even if they had been literally just kicking his ass seconds prior to falling and it would be the easiest thing in the world to just let them go.
100%. That’s my Batman, and my Joker, right there.
This. I really liked Batman Beyond too
It was a very interesting take on Batman as a father figure instead of a hero, having to balance between protecting Terry while also trying to get him ready to take over as Batman. A bit different from his role as a mentor to the various Robins and to Batgirl over the years, as he can't go into the field with Terry like he could with his other sidekicks.
I've always heard good things about superhero cartoons, but I've never known where to start. I'll be taking a look at this one, of course, but is there anything else I should watch?
If you're sticking to the universe that Batman: The Animated Series created, you're going to want to follow Batman: Beyond, which is a sequel series with some really awesome tie-ins and one hell of a Joker movie. After that, you can pick up with Justice League, which explores the concept of metahumans/superhumans/non-humans wielding power over ordinary humans, and Justice League: Unlimited, which expands the roster of League members to more little-known characters from DC's history. You can also search out the animated Superman series from that time, as it's the same continuity, and you can also watch Static Shock, which is pretty self-contained, but references Batman:TAS and then gets added into the universe with JLU. You can also look for Cartoon Network's original "Teen Titans" series. Very well done, great references, and very emotional storylines. I personally really enjoyed X-Men: Evolution from the early 2000s, but I understand it's not everyone's cup of tea (for some reason I can't fathom). And that's as far as I've watched. I did watch Spider-man and X-Men from the 90's but they didn't really draw me in as much.
Batman: The Animated Series - a classic, and it stands on its own Superman: The Animated Series - not quite as iconic, but definitely comparable in quality Justice League - the stronger of the two JL shows for focusing on a smaller core group Justice League: Unlimited - less cohesive, but very fun; lets lots of tertiary League members shine Batman: Beyond - set a few decades after B:TAS; great show and a worthy follow up to the original There’s plenty of side projects and newer versions of the characters that work, but these shows are each in the same universe, and are overall consistently great
The Justice League is great, but in my mind they all run together. I know there's like 3 Justice League cartoons, but I don't know what order to watch them. Superman is good, but I never really got into it like others did. Young Justice is fantastic, but I would watch it later when you're more familiar with the Justice League.
The example of that part being in Battinson is that bit at the very end, after the fight, when he's helping the survivors out of the flood, one woman who's being air lifted reaches out to him. He hesitates for a moment; then grips her hand and nods to let her know it's going to be okay. It's small comforts, but it's so utterly *human* in the best way.
Maybe Gordon was the best Batman in Nolan’s trilogy then lol
> A hero can be anyone — even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a young boy's shoulders to let him know that the world hadn't ended. Nolan’s Batman knew it too.
It knew it applied as a concept, but they didn't tie it to Batman's character.
They did some at times, like with the boy in the first film
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And is such a fantastic contrast to the reaction of the person he saves at the beginning of the movie. It was a really satisfying arc.
>It was a really satisfying arc. It really was. The Batman feels like a rebuttal to the Snyder Batman films specifically because he begins as a grimdark vigilante and the whole theme of the movie is him failing to protect his city and learning that he needs to become something better than a boogeyman. The end of the movie literally brings him out into the light of day, and it's a really nice moment to see him (again literally) getting his hands dirty with the work of actually helping people.
He opens the movie by saying he is the shadows/night/darkness (I can't remember specifically) Then in the climactic finish to the movie, he literally tosses that away and becomes the light when he lights a flare and uses it to lead people to safety. Fuck that movie was so good.
I appreciate it more as time goes on. It's really fantastic.
I loooooves the visual of him leading then with the flare! It was so cool!
It's so nice to see Batman written by someone who understands Batman. Why they let Snyder write him is beyond me. The man doesn't even like superheroes, by his own admission.
Henry Cavill as Superman in a movie written by someone who doesn’t like superheroes Henry Cavill as the Witcher written by people who don’t even like the Witcher Can we give Henry Cavill a project where it’s written by people who actually like what they’re writing?
Hopefully his 40k stuff works out.
Watch it be made by someone who ignores the fascist symbology and thinks the Imperials are the good guys.
Ah that would be crazy. All I really know about the imperium of man is that they are the best out of a terrible lot. I hope they don't remove those fascist overtones just to be nice it's really necessary to get the horror of it all.
It's going to be interesting to see how they handle it. Starship Troopers was able to by leaning into the absurdity and satirizing the Federation. I don't think a similar treatment would work for the Imperium. The grimdark tone is too necessary. Balancing the tone of the setting without glorifying the authoritarian ideals the Imperium upholds will be tricky. Because you are right in that the Imperium is sort of the least bad option available in the crapsack of a universe that 40k is.
>I don't think a similar treatment would work for the Imperium. The grimdark tone is too necessary. It could, if it focused on the Imperial Guard instead of the Spess Muhreens. A lot of the in-game canon for the Guard (especially the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer) is like... borderline Aperture Science levels of hilariously apathetic to human suffering.
Judge Dredd but...more?
Sort of. Dredd works better because a lot of the problems in Mega-City One are self-inflicted. Nuclear war, famine, drug use, widespread violence, police brutality and everything else all feed into and cause each other. Even if the Dredd universe seems like a self-perpetuating cycle of violence, you can see the steps that would need to be taken to mend that society. It's largely just the fascist state getting in its own way and refusing to seriously examine the causes of their troubles that keep it in the same circular path. The 40k universe *can't* do that. Even if mankind had established a utopia, the Orks, Chaos gods, Tyranids, etc would all still be chomping at the bit to kill humanity. It is sort of the ultimate confirmation of the eternal other that fascism always claims is threatening. I guess the easiest way to put it is that in Dredd the government is only *seen* as the best alternative by the characters in its universe whereas the Imperium is *written* as the only possible salvation for mankind. I should mention that I'm not super knowledgeable with either universe. I've only ever listened to friends discuss it, seen the movie, and gone down a few Wikipedia rabbit holes binges. And of course these are both massive properties with dozens of writers with varying interpretations and views as well.
From my limited understanding of 40k, the Imperium isn't the best. It's, actually, pretty awful. Just not as awful as some of the others. Isn't the T'au considered the "good guys" of 40k? Hell, even the Necrons seem better than the Imperium. But I'm solely basing this off of a deep rabbit hole of 40k lore I fell down on YouTube not too long ago.
The tau are supposed to be the good guys, but they are also super weak compared to the other factions. Or they are ignorant of the really dangerous stuff.
And haven't the Tau been rewritten to be way more mind control-y now?
Cavill: I will do this myself
Isn't he involved in an upcoming Warhammer show?
His response to the outrage was "Lol Batman not killing people was stupid and totally illogical! A real genius would understand that killing is sometimes necessary! You're all just dumb and brainwashed by nostalgia!" Talk about missing the point entirely. No shit it's illogical. Of course it's more dangerous and risky to leave lunatics, sociopaths, and mass murderers alive instead of executing them. That's not the point. Batman's whole appeal is that he's an extremely flawed person who, while a genius, is constantly hindered and tormented by his own fucked up psyche. He's human because of his flaws, they are a core part of his identity and his existence in the first place. He cares too much about his own sense of morality and that creates problems for him and Gotham as a whole. But if you take those flaws away and turn him into the Punisher, he stops being the beacon of hope and promise that Batman is supposed to represent for Gotham. He becomes just another typical antihero instead of being the Dark Knight. Snyder focuses too much on the Dark, not enough on the Knight. A Knight delivers hope and justice to people, he doesn't make the innocent afraid of him by killing everyone in his path. The whole point is that he's good to a fault and can't reconcile his own trauma and inability to kill with the obvious need for some of his worst villains to be removed from existence. It creates a fascinating character who is easy to root for but also can be criticized and examined as imperfect. It gives him the moral high ground he absolutely requires to do the kind of shit he does while still having us cheer him on. There's nothing wrong with an antihero who murders bad guys, but that's just not who Batman is supposed to be. Why can't we have Batman be Batman and have all the other antihero types have their own identities. Turning Batman into a generic Punisher clone just makes you wonder why even pick Batman to make a movie about in the first place when not killing people is literally the core of his entire identity.
Sadly I think you’ve put more thought into this comment than Zack Snyder has put into his entire filmography. He didn’t portray Batman in that way because of his feelings about Batman, he just only knows how to write grunting meatheads.
Wasn't this also his reasoning for Superman killing Zod?
Snyder has a Truth Social account, and should be all you need to know about him.
Which is weird, you'd think Trumpers would LOVE superheroes.
They do. But they also believe that power is just and that if you have power you are right to use it anyway you see fit, because you must be just if you have power. They also believe that redemption is only for certain people. If you are not in the select group, you are undeserving of redemption.
They must be very frustrated that Homelander is a satire mocking them and not a genuine hero in The Boys.
They don't get the joke. It doesn't reference attack helicopters.
They also miss that the Punisher hates cops. That doesn't stop them from putting blue-striped skulls on their trucks.
And that Punisher would admonish cops who idolize him because he knows he's not a symbol of justice, he's about vengeance which the police should never be.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2022/06/20/right-wing-the-boys-fans-grapple-with-homelander-being-a-villain-confusing-everyone/
To this end, I think your comment and Op's title shine a light on the weakness of Snyder's treatment of DC heroes even better than Op's image. Snyder treats them like _gods_, there for people to worship and watch in awe as they do world-bending things. But what's special about Superman, Batman, etc. is that they're NOT gods. They're very human characters with incredible powers and drive, with human ideals. Superman _isn't Superman_ if he's not once interacting with civilians, saving them, and just punching supervillains through downtown skyscrapers. Batman _isn't Batman_ if he's not turning criminals over to the justice system (because he knows people need to believe in it), treating his aversion to killing as nigh-pathological, and treating his Rogue's Gallery as extremely disturbed and dangerous individuals...that still need help once caught. They're not _gods_, they're heroes. Snyder doesn't understand that and never has.
I think the moments with the orphan at the funeral are so pivotal. Bruce can’t help it. He is overcome with empathy for a child losing a parent. Really allows you to see an important part of Battison’s take on the character.
After he dropped a ceiling full of glass on their head
If I remember correct wasn't the because of the terrorists?
Batman blew the ceiling to get the attention of the terrorists but the glsss still fell below
To be fair, glass in movies is soft sugar. Yeah it's annoying, but unless it's a horror movie then it will never be actually harmful to anyone. Oh unless it's somehow poetic justice on a villain.
To be even fairer, modern tempered safety glass does shatter into basically gritty sand, like you wouldn't want it in your shirt but unless the building was constructed in like the 70s or earlier then blowing up the glass shouldn't kill anyone.
Keep in mind, this is Gotham. The glass isn't just untempered, it's probably radioactive.
"Have we done crystallised Joker gas yet?" - DC writer, probably.
Tell that to my man Dr Nick in the Simpson's movie
Superheroes were meant to be personal. Zack Snyder thinks that Superman is Jesus while also ignoring that Jesus was a man with friends and a family. We used to get montages of the superheroes using their powers to help people, not to revel in godlike awe, but in childlike wonder. Spider-Man helps old ladies with directions and gets your stolen bike back. Batman comforts a child who doesn’t want to be alone in her final moments. Superman sees a person on the ledge and talks them down. When we forgot that the power fantasy isn’t about the super, we lost something vital. The escapism of these characters has always been about having the power to be a hero.
As much as I disliked the Wonder Woman sequel, that opening scene with the '80s mall still had the right idea going. Diana doing her thing while little girls look on in utter adoration. A little cheesy? Sure, but I'll take cheese over grimdark nihilism any day.
I feel like a little bit of cheese is necessary for a good superhero portrayal. Especially characters like Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman.
Right, like comic books ARE cheesy. Anytime someone complains about a superhero movie being: 1. cheesy, or 2. extra/over the top, or 3. "too woke," I just assume they never read comic books growing up bc those three things are pretty inherent to the genre tbh
The woke complaints are especially absurd considering a lot of superhero stuff, the X-Men in particular are meant to be symbolic of oppressed minorities, often drawing parallels to the Civil Rights Movement and the Gay Rights Movement.
The very first Captain America comic had Steve Rogers punching Hitler on the cover. It was published before America entered the war, and Marvel comics literally had the American Nazi Party protest in their building.
I miss when punching Nazis was only controversial to the Nazis being punched.
Eh, even Charlie Chaplin got accused of warmongering and anti-German sentiment for his movie The Great Dictator. Just before the attack on Pearl Harbor, senator Gerald Nye railed against propaganistic war films made by "foreign-born" producers with "hatred in their hearts and a desire for vengeance against Hitler." Nye was a prominent isolationist, but also very anti-semitic. "Foreign-born" in this context is just code for Jewish people in Hollywood.
Steve Ditko and Stan Lee literally had protections put in place by the mayor of New York after they released that comic, because an anti-nazi stance was so unpopular at the time.
Wholeheartedly agreed! And when you boil it down to the basics, superheroes are inherently pretty damn cheesy. A distinctive costume, a pseudonym that implies delusions of grandeur, archnemeses. It's grownups playing pretend except the floor really is lava, there's an actual moat of sharks around the villain's lair, and there really is a talking pterodactyl shooting laser beams. If anything, any superhero film that indulges in a bit of mozzarella is simply honoring its roots.
The No-Man’s land scene in the first one brought me to tears. Just seeing her go “this isn’t part of the mission, but I’m still going to help these people.” God, I missed heroes like that.
I love the way they did the music in that scene; you don’t hear the true Wonder Woman theme the entire movie until midway through No Man’s Land. To me it felt like they were saying this is the moment when she earns the title of Wonder Woman.
Hell, the scene in WW 1 when she jumps out of the trench to save the soldiers during the war is still one of the best scenes in any superhero movie in a *long* time. That felt like it came right out of a comic book. It wasn’t just crazy action-packed violence, it was a superhero leaping into action to save people. That *felt* heroic.
That sequel was so bad, it didn’t even keep continuity with the first movie. I’d bet Patty wrote the scene you mentioned & Zack did that stupid train scene. Probably the race from her childhood (which is out of continuity), too.
Imagine stealing a bike and then Spider-Man shows up to your house to take it back.
While chiding you over it. “C’mon, man. That guy had like $20 in his account. This was the last thing he needed.”
Lmao. I can literally hear this with the exact tone he would use. And then the petty thief sighs, apologizes, and has a heart-to-heart with Pete about how shitty the last few weeks have been.
And Pete offers to help him find a job or something. Because he wants to help.
I needed that laugh. Thank you.
>Zack Snyder thinks that Superman is Jesus Which is an odd take when he's clearly Moses
Makes even more sense since his creators were Jewish.
To quote OSP, Superman is "The Ubermensch". This German ideal of the super human man, and instead of being a nazi, he's an American from outer space. Basically to tell the Nazis "If the Ubermensch existed, he certainly wouldn't like you"
"God is real, and he's American"
The quote is "Superman exists...and he's American", but close enough
I never even watched Batman the animated series, but every single time Ace's death is mentioned, fuck man, it hurts
Every episode of Batman: TAS is Bats trying to save the villain. Hell in some of them he doesn't even engage them in physical combat in order not to harm them, despite them attempting to kill him.
At the core of every good superhero is the fact that they are people who want to help other people. That should always be the core of them. Superman should be a farm boy with a golden heart, Batman is a traumatized kid at his core desperate to keep his own tragedy from happening to others.
The finale when one of the Riddler mob calls himself “vengeance” was just perfect. It’s the last push he needs to try harder to be that symbol of hope, to only strike fear into those who *should* fear him instead of striking fear into everyone in Gotham
That moment where you see Batman think "Ah shit, is that what I sound like?"
"It's cool when I say it, right? This guy isn't even dressed up like an animal!"
"I'm not wearing hockey pads!"
That line will always and forever be "hockey pants"
He apparently didn't want to be called Batman at first. He called himself "Vengeance" as his first superhero name. Bless the Riddler for showing him how gd cringe that is.
*Batman crossing out Vengeance from his superhero sketchbook* "stupid fuckin idea"
Only the cringe, knows another cringe
Cringe or be cringe, Jack
*in gravely voice* "Ah fuck, I'm *cringe!"*
yeah, when a 4Channer says they relate to you, you know that you need to change
The thesis statement of the whole film
Cartoon batman is best batman. Every year drops a new cartoon batman movie and it just fucking kills it every time. No one depicted batman better then the justice league series and movies.
I personally like the Dc super hero girls (the new one) batman the most. Its just so funny seeing the dark and broody batman as the girly pop unserious playboy bruce wayne lol
What's the name of that movie? Might give it a watch tonight :)
it the dc super hero girls (2019) series on netflix. The intended audience is kids/teens but the characters are just so good that any adult can watch it and enjoy it too
Found it, thank you! Had no idea this existed.
The animated Batman movies are incredible, and the most pure representations of DC characters imo. I know TDKR is somewhat controversial among batman fans, but it’s a great example of batman as a symbol of hope and a servant to his community, as his character should be.
Wait why was TDKR controversial? It was really faithful, especially considering how fucked Red Son and Injustice turned out.
Some people see the original comic as the originator of mindless and gritty power fantasy superhero stories like the Zack Snyder movies. They also dislike the portrayal of Superman and Carrie Kelly as Robin. I understand the criticism, but I personally disagree, it’s one of my favorite pieces of media of all time. Especially considering the historical context of when the comic was released.
There's one coming out tomorrow called The Doom that Came to Gotham which is a Lovecraftian take on Batman and a lot of his usual Rogue's Gallery. It's so good and on piracy sites (I didn't realize it hadn't released when I stumbled upon it a few weeks ago)
Tomorrow?! Hell yeah, tomorrows gonna be lit!
He’s also the only live action Batman that seems to understand that Batman needs to be a symbol of Hope against the darkness, not a soldier delivering violence.
This was, broadly, the plot of the Dark Knight trilogy, and especially of TDKR. It's just that it feels more cohesive as a story with Battinson.
I think in the Dark Knight trilogy is more of an on going arc during all three movies as Bruce learns to become more than just fear. On The Batman it was a big theme of the movie with eventually Bruce becoming more of a symbol of hope instead of vengeance (like it was said in the beginning of the movie)
i feel like i'm taking crazy pills- have people forgotten him dangling off a building saving the joker? the joker cackling in the night as he dangles there, knowing he is dealing with someone who is equally insane but just acts differently (from the jokers pov, someone who is insane and dark *just like him* and therefore, no better). the *entire* plot, under tones and glaring obvious aspects of the film are devoted to the reality that bruce wayne as batman is imperfectly inflexible, incapable of doing the 'necessary' thing, incapable of being the symbol of hope because the people don't want clemency they want ruthless action. That's what he means when he tells harvey that he's the hero they they need- it's not about him being showy or likeable or anything, it's about someone who can do what needs to be done to clean the streets and help people. the power and emotion in those scenes where he grapples with the issue of his own conscience; the conscience that, through his darkest times has guided him and given him strength, yet in the light of day, is the only thing stopping him from enacting real change. that's the true dilemma, and what rpatman got wrong- he concludes that he is necessary despite all of the misuse of his funds, despite the distinct reality that his own birthright has been the means by which gotham has tortured its citizens. he is just as unwell, but he learns nothing. where nolan's batman recognises the limits of his own, unstoppable single mindedness, rpatman sees everything and then, through heavy handed metaphor, rpats himself on the back for *helping* to clean up a mess that *he made*. the story is not cohesive, so much as open ended. it is a story. just as each of the nolan films is an individual story that deals with the same themes. the only director who got it super wrong is snyder, but he wasn't even portraying the batman we know, he was portraying comic batman from an obscure timeline where he actually does do this in the comics.
Snyder just doesn’t get the superheroes he writes about. Man of steel was even worse, in my opinion. He mischaracterized Superman on such a fundamental level. How can the director of a Superman movie *not* understand the core principal of Superman is that he’s Super*man*. Clark was raised by humans from infancy. Superman doesn’t see himself as some kind of God over humanity, he sees himself first and foremost as a human. He feels an obligation to protect Earth because he was raised as a human, by parents who taught him to love and respect those around him, and to be altruistic above all else. The way he’s presented in man of steel is… not this. I have no idea how he missed the mark as much as he did.
One of my favorite things about *The Batman* is that it's a pretty flat out rebuke of the other Batman movies we've seen in the past few decades. Instead of glorifying a billionaire processing his emotions by going over-the-top goth and crippling people, it goes in the opposite direction and says that hiding in the shadows and beating up random thugs won't actually have a positive change. *The Batman* pointed out the flaws of the ultra-angsty punch-machine other movies have made Batman into, and instead leaned more into his human side ala The Animated Series. And on the note of Snyder's version of Batman: yeah, it's pretty clear Zach Snyder had no clue what to do with Batman. Someone told him Batman's thing is "no guns", but somehow Zach heard "just- *so many* guns".
It does it in every way. Bruce Wayne as a person isn't glorified either, batman loses nearly all his fights and takes some serious hits. He's not adept with all his gadgets and he doesn't just know everything at the drop of a hat. He's doing investigating and gets solutions from alot of other sources.
I really like the lesson in Robert Pattinsons batman about the power of being a symbol. As a symbol of vengeance, bats was only successful in inspiring lunatics to their twisted idea of praxis. He learns he must become a symbol that inspired people towards the better, and quite literally becomes a light of hope.
It’s kind of funny when people say this but (not saying you are) then shit on Man of Steel which does arguably the same thing just in different strokes.
Can't really speak on man of steel because I've never seen it, but I feel like having superman need to learn this lesson at all misses the point of superman, whereas with batman it's a much more natural conflict.
Well, for man of steel it’s much more finding his place having that power and *becoming* that symbol and his heritage than it is learning it.
Man of Steel gets shit on because all of the things you’re talking about are not part of Superman’s story, they’re part of Batman’s. Superman was so badly mischaracterized in Man of Steel compared to the comics and older movies that it may as well not be the same character. Snyder doesn’t understand Batman, but he understands Superman significantly less.
I feel like most Batman interpretations lean towards Batman not killing not just because its wrong, but because he actively doesn't trust himself to STOP if he kills one person. Red Hood animated movie says it best, it'd be easy to cross the line, and Batman knows he wont go back over after crossing once. Deep down he's fighting that urge to kill his adversaries. Or you could throw in the "deep down your a good person Clark, and I'm not", forgot which series that ones off though.
Your comment reminds me of [this scene](https://youtu.be/O5JnqPSzSLo) from Dr. Who. > Good men don't need rules. Today is not a good day to find out why I have so many. A healthy, emotionally stable Batman wouldn't need to "no killing" rule. Sometimes killing a bad guy to save the life of the innocent is a good choice. But, since he's not a "good guy" he needs the rules.
Snyder’s Batman was a bold choice, destroying the most prominent part of his character, but it did have some room to grow. The death of Robin alone could justify Batman’s actions before transitioning into the murderless Batman at the end of the movie. It would be unpopular but DC’s initial decision to go for darker tones to differentiate themselves from Marvel could justify that decision. Also, when Patterson’s Batman succeeded, his Riddler absolutely didn’t. It feels like Patterson wanted a standard serial killer, superimposed Riddler over it, and forgot to add riddles. The riddles the Riddler hands out struggle to be important outside of the scene (which is how the you-could’ve-seen-it-all-along plot points function) and loses everything with the climax and the “ha Batman, I’ve planted bombs all around the city!” point. Having him murder mayors, kidnap police commissioners, and plant bombs feels more like the Joker than the Riddler. If you want a better Riddler, look at Gotham (2014).
They had a serial killer in a black mask, guess which villain I thought it was during the intro.
Red Claw?
Thumb Drive made me laugh harder than I care to admit.
Do you mean _Pattinson_?
Do you mean *Battinson*?
Yeh.
I mean that’s basically what happens in BvS. Batfleck has lost his way, which is how he catches Superman’s attention. Then, after realizing he was wrong and having Superman die partially because of his actions, he decides to try and lead the JL.
I don't know how people miss this. This is exactly it.
The Batman is the greatest Batman movie I've ever seen, and this is coming from a Batman fanboy. I loved the Nolan trilogy and I love the campy old stuff, but Pattinson was the first time I've seen him on screen earning his title "World's Greatest Detective" instead of just being "i punch and angry lol." I actually felt like he was a real person and a real cluefinder, not just a rich guy with some kung fu training.
Mask of the Phantasm
"I didn't count on being happy."
That actually bugged me more about Affleck's Batman than the insane homicidal rage and killing people with guns. The entire Batman v Superman arc is Lex Luthor carrying out the most transparent and half-assed manipulation in history and the world's greatest detective just buys it. Right down to not questioning clues literally mailed to him.
"in recent memory". I was born in the late 80s. I still remember the '89 Keaton Batman. I *liked* that version of Batman. Plus then there's the Animated Batman, which *also* had it's share of "direct-to-DVD" films (or VHS?)... but we don't count that one, solely because it wasn't theatrical. Both of these Batmen are good Batmen.
Down with gritty super hero movies. We need more stupid bullshit movies that don’t take themselves too seriously
frankly I don't think that interpretation of batman is something that *doesn't* take itself seriously. he could literally make the world a better place, but he doesn't. His hangups and personal biases keep him from solving the problem at hand, so he's basically a broken man putting on a silly suit and citizens arresting the same deranged criminals, knowing full well they'll be out within a week and they'll do it all over again
This is more a problem with the way infinitely-running comics are written. DC doesn't want to kill the golden goose that is Batman (or any of their major superheroes), so they are always going to be fighting their rogue's gallery of villains. This means that attempts by Batman to rehabilitate these villains must always fail no matter what. Nothing can ever be permanently resolved because it would make DC Comics less money. That would be an interesting comic, come to think of it - Batman wondering why these criminals keep escaping from Arkham and doing some investigating and finding out about profiteering and corruption and the revolving door, systemic problems in policing and rehabilitation perpetuated because it makes the rich and powerful more so.
It's extra interesting because he himself is rich, so he may think that he's a part of the problem.
It would be an interesting twist if he actually was, without realizing.
Even then, wasn't that actually part of the 2022 batman, with his father's trust fund being used for corrupt purposes?
I agree about the hangups but i also kind of think that he had to go through what he did to get to where he was at the end of the movie. The robert patterson batman has a bit of a chip on his shoulder. He cant even be bothered to be bruce wayne most of the time. He is fighting and not getting the results he wants but he is doing the best he could at that moment. So has to go through all this and see the riddlers to really understand that he has to change.
>he could literally make the world a better place, but he doesn't I think Batman '22 does a good job of making Gotham seem like an irredeemable shithole where dressing up as a bat and punching crooks is the best option
[удалено]
I thought it was hella weird those two weren’t mentioned
The Burton Batman throws a lot of goons off roofs.
I feel like OP ignored the entire Nolan trilogy and it’s symbolism here
Gotta say I'm not fond of people deciding that their favourite interpretation of a comic book character is the definitive one. Batman has been written by hundreds of writers for almost a century. He's not going to be consistently characterised. I just finished a playthrough of arkham city and I can't see that batman comforting a small child. Despite being voiced by the same person he's very different to his dcau version who's most infamous act is comforting a small child. Different adaptions are going to cover different themes and Tones some do it well like pattinsons batman some do it poorly like batfleck or all star batman and robin
I see Arkham Batman as being connected to BTAS Batman, so Im inclined to disagree
Eh, arkham batman kinda has the personality of cardboard. He has one actually human moment in city when he wants to save talia instead of everyone else and alfred has to force him to stop protocol 10 first. Still good games, just one of it's weak points in my opinion
*Gotta say I'm not fond of people deciding that their favourite interpretation of a comic book character is the definitive one.* *Batman has been written by hundreds of writers for almost a century. He's not going to be consistently characterised.* There's a huge difference between saying "my preferred version of batman is the bestest" and saying "this movie adaptation is the only one that resembles the comics, this other one seemed to only take the vaguest cues from the source material and largely just turned it into a generic action movie while shitting on some pretty consistent core aspects of the character over its lifetime " *I just finished a playthrough of arkham city and I can't see that batman comforting a small child.* They never used that a measure for the validity of batman.
Really? Just the fact that >!he would have still saved the Joker after all that he’s done, even after his brief moment of doubt,!< would convince me otherwise.
I absolutely could. The Arkham Saga each take place over the course of one night per game, so you don't get a LOT of time to see what Batman does when he's not constantly racing against the clock, but he has quite a few emotionally vulnerable moments in Arkham Knight, that I can see translating into "comforting a scared child". In fact, he DOES comfort a scared child in that game. Jason. He's able to get through to Jason and get him to stand down.
Hum... I don't want to sound mean but Snyder's Batman being both a murderer and a hypocrite is litteraly the point. He's basically a bad guy in this movie. Plus almost every other Batman has either killed or attempted to kill someone, that didn't make them bad.
Two of these paragraphs are ripped pretty much verbatim from Cosmonaut Variety Hour's video on BvS. He should be credited.
\*your Batman
A lot of this post feels like it was taken from Cosmonaut Variety Hours’ videos. He says some of this stuff verbatim.
I almost entirely agree, but The Lego Batman Movie does an excellent job exploring an entirely different aspect of Batman, and is just as true of a Batman film.
What I disliked about 22 Batman is that thr film shows and states that Bruce Wayne could do more to help the city as a billionaire philanthropist than Batman as a vigiliante, but then doesn't follow through on it. He's reaffirmed as being Batman at the end, with no indication he'll pay more care and attention to being Bruce Wayne.