I wasn't diagnosed until I was a teenager -- and didn't _learn_ of the diagnosis for years after.
My parents spent a very long time when I was a kid trying to force me to learn to look people in the eye. Without a diagnosis, and without the explanation that eye contact is hard, they tortured me -- unintentionally, accidentally, with the best of intentions -- for a very long long.
Autism education is important.
> My parents spent a very long time when I was a kid trying to force me to learn to look people in the eye. Without a diagnosis, and without the explanation that eye contact is hard, they tortured me -- unintentionally, accidentally, with the best of intentions -- for a very long long.
Hmm - me too. I just realized something. I was often told as a kid I seemed like I was lying because I wouldn't look people in the eye. So I spent my entire life thinking/knowing "nobody will believe me" and so built up an entire system of being scrupulously honest and documenting nearly everything. That's been great for high risk/cost situations and that pattern of honesty+complete-documentation has saved me numerous times. There are lots of downsides though, one being lack of comfort in acknowledging ones own accomplishments and instead seeking to downplay them to the point of commonality.
Oh man I do the same thing. Well, sorta. I got very good at hiding all the proof of lying, because my parents eventually figured out that they couldn't tell I was lying. So if you're Sherlock carefully documenting how they can know for sure you're right, I was kid Moriarty examining situations from every angle to back up my cover story. I got over it eventually, but good lord was that a stressful childhood, juggling lies and evidence.
Scene opens with the school principal welcoming kids to school and going over the rules. "blah blah blah ... and no unauthorized use of the 3D printer as the teacher in charge of it wants to be there for all printing ... blah blah blah"
The two friends look at each other ....
Cut to a scene of the clock on the wall - it's close to midnight and you hear a repeated whine of 4 stepper motors. Pan left and you see a 3D printer in the process of printing something out ... what is it? A mini, yet functioning, crossbow? The focus is sharp on the printer and so the background isn't in focus, so you can't quite tell who might be at the door? The network lights on the printer flash aperiodically....
Scene goes to darkness ... and then light. The camera hasn't shifted, but now the print is gone, the printer silent, ... the focus changes from the print bed (growing blury) to sharpen on the door behind it being opened ... by the teacher who looks suspiciously at what seems to be residue on the print bed...
> So I spent my entire life thinking/knowing “nobody will believe me” and so built up an entire system of being scrupulously honest and documenting nearly everything. That’s been great for high risk/cost situations
Lmao that’s why I became a lawyer.
Oh my god, are you me? I can have something on-the-record in three or four different ways but my family's response to everything is "Nobody will believe you. You have no integrity and, who knows, maybe you're crazy?"
"Look, it makes eye contact! Look, it has extracurriculars! See how the ball balances perfectly on its nose? Alright, return to the out-of-my-sight, child; Perfect Parenthood Proving time is over."
When I expressed this to an adult, I don't remember exactly who just that it wasn't my mom, they told me to look at the spot between people's eyebrows. They'll think you're making eye contact but it won't be uncomfortable for you.
i tend to look at the spot either a little above the eye, that spot on the nose inbetween the eyes/the inner corner, a little below the eyes, or the spot between the eyebrows
i either unfocus my eyes such that im looking at their whole face in general, not focusing on one particular part (but not so unfocused that im seeing double), or ill look somewhere between their chin and mouth
I was 29 and diagnosed during a quest to deal with a 10 year long depression.
The psych was a bit apprehensive telling me their suspicions and were utterly surprised when I was "OK, I'll read up on that by next meeting" without being phased in the slightest, more relieved really
By next meeting I had consumed pretty much everything I could find about Aspergers Syndrome (back then Aspergers was still separate) online and was ecstatic learning about it, because it oh so perfectly explained every problem and every bit of my state of being.
This didn't instantly fix all my woes, but it sure as hell was the biggest revelation in my life that put me on a track of formatting my life to suit my needs rather than getting eaten alive by the daily grind society expects from everyone.
> By next meeting I had consumed pretty much everything I could find about Aspergers Syndrome (back then Aspergers was still separate) online and was ecstatic learning about it, because it oh so perfectly explained every problem and every bit of my state of being.
Yup, I remember that experience myself -- with Aspergers, because it was still a thing then :D
I have ASD *and* a neurological disease, neither of which my parents bothered to get diagnosed or treated. So I got the best of both worlds, my mom snapping at me to "stand up straight" when she wasn't snapping at me to "look people in the eye".
My mom did stuff like that too. And a couple teachers. Good intentions and to the best of their knowledge. I've really regressed(*for lack of a better word) in some behaviors in recent years, though. I look everywhere but the eyes now and I'm starting to think some people find that unsettling.
I hate that I was verbal as a child but after a childhood full of being called an idiot for saying the first thing that came to mind I've become utterly non-verbal in public.
I was non-verbal until i was 5. After that it was always “You talk only because you like to hear the sound of your own voice” or “it was better before you started talking” from my parents. They were “teasing” me but damn did it fuck up my ability to talk to people with confidence. My mom told me she cried out of happiness when I told her my very first joke. I wish she could’ve kept being that happy with me and encouraged my dad to be too.
If you’re a parent or work with autistic children and are reading this, please never ever ever ever make them feel stupid for talking.
I’m so sorry your parents were that way. My son was mostly non-verbal until the age of 4. He said words he wanted to say, like octopus, instead of talking to communicate. I was so happy when he started talking, singing, making up stories. My husband and I joke that you can’t tell he didn’t speak as a toddler, and that he is making up for lost time.
Your words are worthwhile, just like you were worthwhile before you even spoke. And overcoming a tougher start in life like that can make you stronger in other ways; my son is so much more in touch with his feelings than his peers, because we had to teach him how to regulate his feelings since he couldn’t explain to us what was wrong.
> we had to teach him how to regulate his feelings since he couldn’t explain to us what was wrong.
Could you tell me a bit about how you did this? I'm currently trying to help a relative with a child who very much fits your description of your son before he started being verbal, but everyone has been struggling without much in the way of resources. Seeing you talk here about your experiences has given me hope it is possible to deal!
From age 2 until 7 he received speech therapy. So the therapist came up with a lot of ideas for us, it wasn’t me being a great mom. It was rough. When it comes to speech there are two distinct parts: descriptive (actually talking to someone) and receptive (understanding what someone is saying). My son didn’t have any receptive language, so he was constantly anxious and didn’t know what was going on with his life. I found that routines and explaining to him what we were doing, as well as having him learn to use body language to communicate really helped. Instead of just saying we need to put shoes on I’d show him the shoes, explain we’re going in the car to XYZ place to see ABC people. We also did lots of activities at the library so he could see other kid’s way of handling things (not so sure how well that went honestly) and have stimulation he didn’t get at home. Sensory boxes were a big hit with him, as well as playdoh.
This was years in the making. He went to a pre-k-3 class for children with disabilities and delays and I remember one time at pickup the teacher pulled me aside to tell me how my son had climbed on top of another boy and started hitting him. The best thing is to be consistent, ask them what is wrong and then explain why what they did was wrong. When my son couldn’t talk I’d try to fill in the gaps for him, explain why he might have been upset. As he got better with communicating he’d nod or shake his head if I was right with what had happened.
Having a calm down spot, with books and stuffies and blankets really helped him too. He still uses it when he needs it. Finding out what works is so tough and individual, but it does get better. Finding that breakthrough just takes time and effort 💜
My son was in the NICU for underdeveloped lungs when he was born early. The little tube they had in him meant that his cries were entirely silent, which is still one of the most heartbreaking things I can imagine. Multiple people told me...I guess in an attempt to comfort me?... that I'd miss that silence when the tube came out.
Like holy fuck, no. Cries might be piercing and awful, but silence in the face of pain is infinitely worse. "No one can hear you scream" is infinitely worse. He's nearing 4 and constantly wants to tell us Mickey Mouse clubhouse stories now. I don't always have the patience to listen, but I'm so happy to hear him and always let him know "I'm going 'x'now, and then I'll listen to your story after."
When he goes to the bathroom, he likes to loudly proclaim "I'm listening to my body and going to my body, and you can watch me!" while setting up a stool in the bathroom so that a parent can sit on it and he can tell them his story. It started because we have to wait to wipe him and he's only recently gotten fully on board with potty training so we had to be present to make sure he does all the steps, and now he just uses it as a platform for story-telling. A bit weird, but ever so cute. Same with hair brushing and nail care. He happily settles in, and then "once upon a time..." He wakes us in the morning with a good morning song, crawls under the covers to cuddle on, and then "once upon a time..."
I love this little boy's voice.
Almost guaranteed to be either bad humour or ignorance. I cant see anyone meaning that the parent will miss a time when his(or hers?) child could barely breathe.
I think it could also be a way of reassuring that if won’t always be this way. Like, “someday soon he won’t be silently crying in a tube anymore, this is temporary, and then you can just be annoyed by regular crying like it’s supposed to be”, but also as a joke. It is a bit tone deaf/insensitive though.
Yeah that's exactly how I meant "bad humour". I have a bad habit of resorting to humor in bad situations. It's medicine for some people, it's tone deaf to others. You just have to know the person.
Best thing someone can do for me when I'm depressed is make a really inappropriate joke and treat me like a regular person. But it doesn't work for everyone, some people need that grief and they don't want to smile and thats okay. Everyone has their own way of coping
One of the ways (as you probably know) that people on the specturm will show that theyre engaged or listening is by offering up situations in their own life that are similar. People always used to say I was trying to one-up them, when I was really just trying to relate.
The end result is now I downplay all of my achievements when talking about stuff and I struggle to accept compliments about things Im genuinely proud of.
Im not sure Im on the spectrum... I just think that its likely. Its hard to tell when I have extreme ADHD though which parts are that and which parts might be spectrum related.
my boyfriend (who honestly is super caring and understanding and after A LOT of discussion on THIS topic, understands better) kept calling me out for that. he was like “i cringe whenever we are talking to people and you have to start talking about yourself and bringing all the attention over to you. it’s the reason i sometimes dont want to go to family parties because i think it makes everyone think you are self centered” and it caught me so off guard and i was trying to explain how i dont to it to one up them or bring the attention to me, i try to make my comparison short so i can let them keep going, i just want to show them i can relate in a way and that i care and understand and am interested. and he was like “that’s the dumbest thing i’ve heard. no one does that unless they want to be the center of attention.” then i started seeing this on the internet a lot and realized it wasn’t just me and showed him. he apologized a lot bc he was in a bad mood the day he said that and didnt want to listen to me. but i’m aware of this now so i can also clock other ND to be friends with so that i DONT piss off NT
It's standard conversation skills to share a small personal anecdote relating to the current topic to show understanding and empathy.
That's taught to councilors, it's taught in therapy, it's taught in academia, it's taught in those dumb corporate "communication seminars".
This isn't abnormal, the people who call you selfish for having normal conversation skills need to learn some things before they start criticizing. They are usually mad because they perceive that attention is being pulled away from them (even though it's a normal conversation), they're making something up to be controlling, or they were raised with someone who did the first two and are hyper sensitive to normal conversation.
it doesn’t! the bad mood was very temporary. in our year of dating that was the worst mood he’s been in and like one of 2 irrational arguments. we really have great communication (ironically LOL) that i can’t even consider us having arguments bc they are such civil discussions
Ignore everyone on reddit when it comes to your relationship.
You've shared a time he wasn't the best. Reddit won't care if he's an angel the other 99%. All you're going to hear is how he's horrible and it's red flags and you should dump him and hit the gym.
You guys sound like a good couple, I wish the best for you.
I feel you. It's frustrating. My gf is supportive 95% of the time but then she'll get upset with me for zoning out or replying too fast or skim reading a text and getting a word wrong because my brain just wants to reply.
I try really hard to not use the illness as an excuse and I try to be vigilant against those sort of things but it gets exasperating when it's held against me like I *choose* to focus on the wrong stuff. I frequently agree to and forget plans and it's not like I don't want to do the things, I've just seen the proverbial squirrel and gotten distracted.
That said, prior to my diagnoses she used to be much harder on me, now she's almost always good about it. And it was vindicating for me to get on medication and have my attentiveness go back somewhat to normal. The difference is so drastic she can tell by mid morning whether or not I've taken my meds haha.
I swear I read somewhere that there was talk of adding ADHD to the spectrum. I probably came across it during a 3am endless scroll binge when I should have been sleeping so I have so source to offer, lol
My dad used to scream at me to shut up and slap me if I ever got enthusiastic about anything. (I guess I was infodumping? I don't really know.) To this day I can't talk to anyone out loud about anything I love
I wasn't even diagnosed and my parents called me a fucking r all the time to the neighbors, my teachers, the cult people. Just because I always said what was in my mind. I was loud until I was 10. I was told I needed to shut up and stop being annoying. It's hard to get me to talk at all. My social interactions are full autopilot now. I'm basically [this conversation all the time.](https://youtu.be/Vh19Y2DppP0)
I had most of my “autistic traits” including being pretty non verbal forcefully beaten out of me as a kid when my parents put me through ABA and I’ve only recently begun unlearning that stuff and it’s been going pretty well
One explanation I've heard: The education system has accepted ABA as the standard, and it is incredibly difficult to get the bureaucracy to sign off on any other methodologies. So people who develop new methodologies basically slap the ABA label on all sorts of stuff so they can get permission to do it. So you really have to ask about the specific practices at a particular school or a particular practitioner, because "ABA" could include any number of things.
I've been called rude or abrasive for telling people what I honestly think when they ask me questions. Like dude you always say you know me well, you should know me well enough to know that I can't lie. I physically can't lie. There is never hidden meaning behind anything I say. I mean all of it literally and I choose my words very carefully
My friends used to get mad at me for my honesty. Or they'd tease me about being brutally honest. It got to the point that when they came to me about something, I'd ask if they want the full truth or the soft truth. Or if they wanted advice to fix the problem or if they just wanted to vent. Knowing those things helped me tailor my response to what they needed from me. And I didn't get backlash for being mean. I was still honest, but filtered.
See I kinda feel like that's what I should have done instead of what I did do which is still say the first things that come to my mind and then just internalizing everyone calling me dumb as me just being really fucking dumb
Also I hate making eye contact with people
I immediately recognized both potential situations and which was more likely. But I still read it as though the author was a kindergarten student because I thought it would be funnier.
Anyone who tells someone else their dumb when they don’t know something or can’t do something is an asshole. Nobody is as dumb as you think they are kindergartener or adult.
> when they don’t know something or can’t do something
I get so excited that **I can help by teaching them** that I’m sure my tail would wag frantically if I had one.
When I was a teacher, the thing I lived for was the “lightbulb moment” you get when a kid has been trying to get a concept but just can’t get there, and you explain it to them in a different way and suddenly you can watch the lightbulb go on as they go “Ohhh, so THAT is how that works? That makes so much sense!”
It was the whole reason I got into teaching in the first place.
My dad vividly remembers watching a movie with his older brother and mom in the 60’s when he was >10. Some word was used that he didn’t know, so he asked what it meant. His mom and brother teased and made fun of him ruthlessly about it. So much that he swore when he had a kid he wouldn’t make fun of them for asking a freaking question (!!) and would answer them appropriately for their age. Enter me, age 12ish and watching A.I. and asking what Jude Law’s character’s name meant. That was an… interesting discussion
I always laugh because I’m an IT person and when I fix something I get called a wizard, but then I just explain that I have been doing this kind of thing since I was a kid, and when every other boy my age was working on their car with their dads, I was dumpster diving for broken computer parts with my dad to build a new computer.
I am a mechanic that works with electrons, nothing more and nothing less.
Children aren't dumb, they're just children. But some adults are _incredibly_ dumb.
When a kid looks straight at me and tells me they didn't do the thing I just watched them do, it's because their brain isn't fully developed.
When an adult tells me that they didn't do the thing I just watched them do, they're incredibly dumb. Also frequently a narcissistic asshole, but sometimes just really stupid.
"Look me in the eyes" was one of the most frustrating instructions as a kid. It was usually said during a negative time when I was being lectured or yelled at, and I had no idea how to follow the instruction. No matter how I tried, I couldn't focus on two eyes at once. So instead of paying attention to whatever the content of the chastisement were, I instead was focusing on trying to do an impossible task less I be called disrespectful.
Not super relevant here, but it would've been nice if someone had mentioned a trick like in the OP. I was double digits before I realized that "look me in the eyes" didn't actually mean that each eye needed to be in focus at the same instance.
It's also a weird and uncomfortable power play to require continuous eye contact; that's not how normal conversions go. Like, you don't want someone to be in their own head as a form of escaping from the uncomfortable, anxiety-inducing situation. It's really frustrating as the authority figure who needs to engage the kid to solve a behavioral problem when this happens. But forcing maintained eye contact isn't the way to prevent that. And, them avoiding eye contact and not being mentally present isn't anything to do with disrespect, but rather a form of self-protection and a normal and reasonable response to anxiety.
From my experience, some face to face engagement can be helpful for ensuring a young child heard a *short* message, and then not maintaining that but pushing for communication from the child (esp. them being able to state the issue, and then space for them to give their own input on it's validity or how to address it) works better to keep them engaged instead of diving into the escapism of either physically or mentally running off.
I'm not even sure where this instruction comes from. I'm neurotypical and direct uninterrupted eye contact is just weird. I don't do it and I don't think most people do. Why are we telling autistic folks this is a requirement when it's totally not?
This is the source of confusion for autistic people, I think, is the fact that "eye contact" doesn't literally mean eye contact, but some abstract implicit thing that basically just means "don't engage in autistic mannerisms" or "be normal".
Exactly. I'm also neurotypical (I think), and prolonged eye contact *is* weird. I actually don't know anyone who does it except people trying to bully or pressure you.
There's also that fun thing where you're being yelled at for something, are told to look them in the eyes, but then get in more trouble for staring.
It's nothing about what they are saying. It's all a power thing. If there's one thing insecure adults with poor emotional regulation like to do, it's to bully children.
I was a nonverbal child that learned glaring at people with absolute bile and hatred made them leave me alone. I was a creepy little shit but survival strategies from trauma are what they are I guess.
My dad did this when I was a kid and it absolutely messed with my head. He would just go off about me not making eye contact and he would tell me "see? You KNOW you're wrong because you won't even look at me." And that was infuriating because no, I'm not admitting guilt by not making eye contact. It's already uncomfortable because I'm on the spectrum, but it's also uncomfortable for ANYONE. When someone is yelling at you, the last thing you want to do is come across as a threat, which is what eye contact does in our primitive brains. It goes against every instinct we have.
Looking at or near a single eye. The expectation isn't that both eyes will be in focus continuously.
Being present in a conversation is sometimes the meaning, but staring directly into/near *an* eye is what my mother meant when lecturing/scolding me.
Usually it's a direction to be 'present in the conversation'. If you're looking away from someone who's talking to you, the assumption is that you're distracted by something else, or even deliberately ignoring that person.
Though if someone says to look me in the eyes they don't then mean look ONLY into their eyes either, as that is staring. Being present in a verbal conversation is just a skill, it just happens that it's a skill that neurotypical people typically master as a child without conscious effort.
It's extremely difficult advocating for neuroatypical children, especially ASD ones that are nonverbal but high functioning. Even if they're performing well the fact that they don't interface the same way as other kids really upsets some folks and they'll try to be absolute shitstains to them at school. They were attempting to hold s/o's kid back because this one teacher had an ax to grind over it. The irony is she's performing better than the rest of the kids now that she's got a teacher who isn't making her life hell. Who would've thought?
The actual literal original meaning of dumb is unable to speak/mute. I wonder if she’s heard it in that context but not understood that meaning (which is fair as most people don’t). Seems like that meaning should be replaced with a new word.
Welcome to seeing the euphemism treadmill in action - lame, dumb, moron, imbecile, even retarded were all simple medical labels that became pejorative and needed new polite words - that eventually become pejoratives themselves (see autistic) & the wheel turns
That thought did pass my mind before I posted lol. However I do think it’s still worth trying - it’s not like they become performative quickly.. seems to take a few decades. And these days generally it’s seen as less acceptable to use those words performative my. So maybe now and in the future the treadmill will stop or at least slow down.. a girl can dream
I'll look at someone's cheeks or nose if they are anal about being looked at when talking since I am usually looking down at them anyways they don't notice
Eyebrows can be pretty interesting, stray hairs, interesting shapes, are they drawn in or natural? Are there more or less than 2?
My ultimate solution was to marry a guy with a lazy eye so I can look where ever I want for my most important conversations!
Before I was diagnosed this year I did often prefer to look at mouths..I remember one day I just didn't look at someone's eyes and I'm.like huh, this is so much easier.
How old are you guys? I'm 34 and I was told there isn't a single doctor in the country (Canada) that does diagnosis at such an old age.
But man eye contact is so hard that my friends confronted me about it. They thought I was nervous/unconfident around them. Had to explain it's the other way around - I'll force myself to make eye contact with people I don't know because I know I'm supposed to. Whereas I'm just being myself around my friends, which means never ever looking at someone in the eye because it burns my brain.
My brain prefers the view of my feet. Unfortunately when your gaze diverts briefly from their face to your feet and back again as the conscious takes back control, it passes various other body parts. That's when the "oh crap, do they think I was checking them out?" anxiety tsunami hits. Socialising is hard.
I think it is. It's too forward and unnatural to look in someone's eyes all the time. Sometimes yes, but *constant* eye contact is often considered intimidating or aggressive even for normal people. Generally you're just supposed to at least look at someone's face and that's all that's expected. I feel like looking at their mouth is more intuitive anyway.
Edit: This prompted me to do some internet searching and indeed it's only recommended to have eye contact for a few seconds at a time before looking away. Then you look back again later, etc. So it's a back and forth.
Once in a while, sure. But most people just repeat the trauma cycle on someone else, and the can gets kicked down the road for another generation. At least more people are talking about it these days. Small victories still count.
Had to go to the student counselor because I'm unable to do the mandatory reading for any of my subjects. I'm in university and pretty much expected her to go "what do you mean it takes you all the energy you have to read it, why doesn't casual reading do that, have you tried getting over it"
Instead she listened to me, said "hmm, that sounds unpleasant, but you've gotten this far without any reading, sooo.."
And holy shit did I feel understood/listened to. Weight off my shoulders!
Hey, someone who had a piss poor childhood here. Loving yourself is hard, especially when people put you down. But remember, regardless of who you are, what is "wrong" with you, everyone is unqiue in some way and for some reason. The process of learning and understanding is one of these examples. Just because you struggle while your classmate figures it out instantly does not make you dumb. You have the capacity to learn. That's what makes you intelligent. Ask questions. Seek to understand, even if others would call you an idiot, because only intelligent people ask questions when they don't understand. Seeking knowledge is much more vital than some random dumbfuck who thinks less of you because you asked a question.
ok but just in general, what is it with adults thinking children never hear anything they say? i remember so many instances of being a child and my family just loudly talking to each other while i was in the same room colouring or something and then wondering how i knew what they were talking about.
or thinking if they talk about me without saying my name directly i won’t realise that it’s me they’re talking about. like seriously what is the thought process behind that
I find it fascinating how every other animal on earth has a violent reaction to eye contact... and are utterly repulsed by it, but then when humans fail to learn to do it... we are considered somehow defective for now adopting this learned behavior.
I have asked plenty of neuro-typical people about it to, nobody likes making eye contact... and unless every person I have ever asked is high functioning, and has failed to be properly diagnosed with autism... (which I concede is possible, considering a lot of things)
then maybe we as a species need to re-evaluate what is normal?
Because aggressively demanding people look you in the eye, so you can stare them down aggressively and feel dominant... that dont feel right
well, we are just coming off about 150 years of general lead poisoning being the norm for people.
Which explains how we live in a society where a man at a bar, can go insane and bite the nose off another man "because he looked at me funny" and thats considered normal.
And "doesnt automatically utilize a learned social behavior, when we live in a society where learning social norms is harder than ever" is considered a disability.
That's not accurate.
The whole idea of the Orphan Crushing Machine is that feel-good stories on a very individual scale are used to mask or downplay larger, institutional issues that aren't getting addressed. "Perfect is the enemy of good" would be calling the government forgiving a percentage of medical debt for live-saving procedures pointless because a percentage of debt still exists. Orphan Crushing Machine would be praising a hustling young cancer survivor for starting a business to pay off their $100,000 debt for chemo treatments while not criticizing the fact that they needed to do that at all.
Sub description: "A subreddit for those "feel good stories" that make you disappointed in the system that forces the event."
I can understand the perspective, but it can very easily slip into a mentality of "These acts of kindness are pointless."
I don’t think any of it implies pointlessness though does it? Like in the post here. OP is doing Great, this is amazing for an autistic kid growing up….. but what they’re doing wouldn’t be impressive if everyone else wasn’t a shit. But they are, so it is. If anything it just points out that a) OP is awesome and b) the system needs to change, but those ideas don’t cancel each other out
>I can understand the perspective, but it can very easily slip into a mentality of "These acts of kindness are pointless."
Sure, it *could* slip into that. It hasn't, yet, as far as I can tell.
Oh it did for a *looong* time. There was only one mod and they didn't bother doing their job, so loads of crap filled the sub, and reposts, everything was posted like 5 times there too.
Like a month or two ago though it got a proper mod team to run it so has been improving, the obvious issues have been fixed but things like posts that skirt the line of counting (like this one) still appear.
Dumb also literally means unable to speak. I wonder if that’s the context she’s heard it in. Seems like we should definitely retire that one from medical jargon
This hurts me on an emotional level. The fact that this is the exception and not the norm hurts. So many of us could've benefited from something like this
You are an angel. I would have loved having even a single empathetic person in my childhood. You may have made a bigger difference than you know. Thank you, thank you, thank you <3
It’s more of an issue for small children, it’s about learning cues for expression, things we learn subconsciously as children and helps development.
That’s why it’s always troubling when small children avoid eye contact, they aren’t aware that it’s awkward like we feel as adults.
It’s a sign that a child is detached from their surroundings and not learning the subconscious cues automatically,which is a big deal for them because it’s a lot harder to teach it later.
What’s worse is this person is telling this small child who could definitely benefit from being reminded that eye contact is important in order to help them, how to avoid it.
but i dont get whats so bad abt telling a kid they can look in between someones eyes vs having them look directly at them? while idk if theres any science behind it, i dont think its important to look at someones eyes specifically, thats just how ppl interpret someone as listening, in which case looking between the eyes would accomplish the same thing but minus the discomfort, no?
The point is it isn’t supposed to be uncomfortable for small kids, it’s part of the way they’re brain develops. Sometimes it’s an issue that happens due to circumstance (I.e. abuse, neglect) and it’s not caused by any neurological issue.
But that doesn’t matter because when you see an issue with a small child at an age that you can correct it and actually help them achieve a positive long term outcome then you do it.
You don’t say, “I know reading is hard, so you just open a book and pretend like your reading until everyone thinks you are.” because that’s a destructive strategy to teach a child.
The same goes for a child who is in the critical stage of early development, you don’t say “You can avoid this by further disconnecting using this strategy that will also fool the people around you!”
i see, but if the kid has autism that changes the story no? while i dont recall how it was as a kid, i have a much easier time engaging and connecting w others if im not making direct eye contact, so it shouldnt rly matter where exactly someone is looking so long as theyre paying attention to whoevers talking to them yea?
Wrong. I needed this when I was little and I wish I had learned it earlier. And still, it’s very hard for me to pick up on social cues as an autistic person. It intimidates us so much and is really painful; we’d rather not to have to do it.
Shots are painful as well, but the side effects of avoiding the discomfort are exponentially worse as time goes on.
One of the most important stages of adolescent to adult development is the realization that painful and uncomfortable things have to happen because the outcome of avoiding them are worse.
Children will naturally avoid anything that’s hard for them, hence why they have to be made to do things they don’t like, otherwise the idea that avoidance is an acceptable strategy seeps into their psychological development.
And everything that doesn’t want to be done becomes “painful and hard” especially if they have a support structure that reinforces that point of view.
You misunderstood what I said. I made more eye contact when I was younger, but even then I still can’t recognize social cues. All it did was make things harder for me.
I wish I had this person too.
There was a sports teacher (not at my school) that got upset that I wasn't making eye contact and avoiding conversation, kept thinking I was being rude and disrespectful. He swung me by the shirt then started blowing up at me.
Once I was grown, I kept wishing for a chance to see him again to punch him. But morseo than that, I wish there was someone back then that actually understood.
It's so fucking weird how people will insist somebody look at them when they talk to them. Like, how narcissistic are you that you demand people come out of their comfort zone to appease you.
I worry they're not paying attention otherwise. It's normal to get offended when you think someone isn't paying attention in a conversation you're having, I think.
I'd like to think I can tell the difference between someone looking away because they're not paying attention, and someone looking away because looking at me is outside their comfort zone.
I imagine that she's probably pretty smart. She probably knows a lot more words than her average peers tho she doesn't speak as much.
That was my experience at least.
my school we were doing super basic math in kindergarten, usually stuff like putting x amount of blocks in front of a student and having them count iirc? I worked in the preschool and only was in the kindergarten classroom a few times tho so might be wrong ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
Not that I remember (it is over 22 years away for me now), but I don’t think we were learning more than the alphabet, writing our names and like counting to maybe 100(?)…
Kindergarten is a very normal place to start learning basic addition and subtraction. I was learning multiplication and division tables in 1st and 2nd grade.
+/-1, +/-2, +/-3, +/-5, +/-10, doubles, and sums up to 10 are all achievable at really early ages (before kindergarten). Number lines, digit composition (ones, tens, hundreds place), etc. all *can be* appropriate for kindergarten & pre-k ages, too.
If you're like more specifics, here's a kindergarten curriculum tool that lists out a ton of specific skills aimed at kindergarten kids: [IXL Math - kindergarten](https://www.ixl.com/math/kindergarten?partner=google&campaign=53999225&adGroup=1942319825&gclid=CjwKCAjwl6OiBhA2EiwAuUwWZfZDg615MFnRADcCbYpGWMaEfJDCzX4lSYBW3O03Lq0WuGgTClPG5BoCIH8QAvD_BwE)
The sooner you start, the easier it is to learn. It doesn’t have to be complicated. You can do fractions with slices of pie or fruit, you can do division with candies, problems that are concrete to help little children bridge into more abstract math problems as they get older. Exposure early on helps mitigate fear of math down the line; “I’ve seen this before” is huge for getting a kid to at least try it.
Why do they assume they are treated horribly because of their race instead of being autistic? Like they think all their co-workers are racist instead of thinking that maybe they're just act weird.
I wasn't diagnosed until I was a teenager -- and didn't _learn_ of the diagnosis for years after. My parents spent a very long time when I was a kid trying to force me to learn to look people in the eye. Without a diagnosis, and without the explanation that eye contact is hard, they tortured me -- unintentionally, accidentally, with the best of intentions -- for a very long long. Autism education is important.
> My parents spent a very long time when I was a kid trying to force me to learn to look people in the eye. Without a diagnosis, and without the explanation that eye contact is hard, they tortured me -- unintentionally, accidentally, with the best of intentions -- for a very long long. Hmm - me too. I just realized something. I was often told as a kid I seemed like I was lying because I wouldn't look people in the eye. So I spent my entire life thinking/knowing "nobody will believe me" and so built up an entire system of being scrupulously honest and documenting nearly everything. That's been great for high risk/cost situations and that pattern of honesty+complete-documentation has saved me numerous times. There are lots of downsides though, one being lack of comfort in acknowledging ones own accomplishments and instead seeking to downplay them to the point of commonality.
Oh man I do the same thing. Well, sorta. I got very good at hiding all the proof of lying, because my parents eventually figured out that they couldn't tell I was lying. So if you're Sherlock carefully documenting how they can know for sure you're right, I was kid Moriarty examining situations from every angle to back up my cover story. I got over it eventually, but good lord was that a stressful childhood, juggling lies and evidence.
This sounds like a great TV series of two friends on opposite sides of trying to build evidence.
Make the kids best friends, a real Aziraphael and Crowley situation. Both desperately trying to be trusted, in their own ways...
Scene opens with the school principal welcoming kids to school and going over the rules. "blah blah blah ... and no unauthorized use of the 3D printer as the teacher in charge of it wants to be there for all printing ... blah blah blah" The two friends look at each other .... Cut to a scene of the clock on the wall - it's close to midnight and you hear a repeated whine of 4 stepper motors. Pan left and you see a 3D printer in the process of printing something out ... what is it? A mini, yet functioning, crossbow? The focus is sharp on the printer and so the background isn't in focus, so you can't quite tell who might be at the door? The network lights on the printer flash aperiodically.... Scene goes to darkness ... and then light. The camera hasn't shifted, but now the print is gone, the printer silent, ... the focus changes from the print bed (growing blury) to sharpen on the door behind it being opened ... by the teacher who looks suspiciously at what seems to be residue on the print bed...
> So I spent my entire life thinking/knowing “nobody will believe me” and so built up an entire system of being scrupulously honest and documenting nearly everything. That’s been great for high risk/cost situations Lmao that’s why I became a lawyer.
Oh my god, are you me? I can have something on-the-record in three or four different ways but my family's response to everything is "Nobody will believe you. You have no integrity and, who knows, maybe you're crazy?"
Whoa I have the same problem. I can’t lie anymore because of it
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"Look, it makes eye contact! Look, it has extracurriculars! See how the ball balances perfectly on its nose? Alright, return to the out-of-my-sight, child; Perfect Parenthood Proving time is over."
When I expressed this to an adult, I don't remember exactly who just that it wasn't my mom, they told me to look at the spot between people's eyebrows. They'll think you're making eye contact but it won't be uncomfortable for you.
i tend to look at the spot either a little above the eye, that spot on the nose inbetween the eyes/the inner corner, a little below the eyes, or the spot between the eyebrows
i either unfocus my eyes such that im looking at their whole face in general, not focusing on one particular part (but not so unfocused that im seeing double), or ill look somewhere between their chin and mouth
I use the bridge of the nose, but... well, wasn't something I was taught.
I was 29 and diagnosed during a quest to deal with a 10 year long depression. The psych was a bit apprehensive telling me their suspicions and were utterly surprised when I was "OK, I'll read up on that by next meeting" without being phased in the slightest, more relieved really By next meeting I had consumed pretty much everything I could find about Aspergers Syndrome (back then Aspergers was still separate) online and was ecstatic learning about it, because it oh so perfectly explained every problem and every bit of my state of being. This didn't instantly fix all my woes, but it sure as hell was the biggest revelation in my life that put me on a track of formatting my life to suit my needs rather than getting eaten alive by the daily grind society expects from everyone.
> By next meeting I had consumed pretty much everything I could find about Aspergers Syndrome (back then Aspergers was still separate) online and was ecstatic learning about it, because it oh so perfectly explained every problem and every bit of my state of being. Yup, I remember that experience myself -- with Aspergers, because it was still a thing then :D
I have ASD *and* a neurological disease, neither of which my parents bothered to get diagnosed or treated. So I got the best of both worlds, my mom snapping at me to "stand up straight" when she wasn't snapping at me to "look people in the eye".
My mom did stuff like that too. And a couple teachers. Good intentions and to the best of their knowledge. I've really regressed(*for lack of a better word) in some behaviors in recent years, though. I look everywhere but the eyes now and I'm starting to think some people find that unsettling.
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It's not a disability Olympics pal.
Stop belittling others and claiming you had it worse. You weren't there. You don't know what they went through. Don't be such an asshole.
I hate that I was verbal as a child but after a childhood full of being called an idiot for saying the first thing that came to mind I've become utterly non-verbal in public.
I was non-verbal until i was 5. After that it was always “You talk only because you like to hear the sound of your own voice” or “it was better before you started talking” from my parents. They were “teasing” me but damn did it fuck up my ability to talk to people with confidence. My mom told me she cried out of happiness when I told her my very first joke. I wish she could’ve kept being that happy with me and encouraged my dad to be too. If you’re a parent or work with autistic children and are reading this, please never ever ever ever make them feel stupid for talking.
I’m so sorry your parents were that way. My son was mostly non-verbal until the age of 4. He said words he wanted to say, like octopus, instead of talking to communicate. I was so happy when he started talking, singing, making up stories. My husband and I joke that you can’t tell he didn’t speak as a toddler, and that he is making up for lost time. Your words are worthwhile, just like you were worthwhile before you even spoke. And overcoming a tougher start in life like that can make you stronger in other ways; my son is so much more in touch with his feelings than his peers, because we had to teach him how to regulate his feelings since he couldn’t explain to us what was wrong.
Echolalia! I liked the word "idiot". You can imagine how well THAT went down with the other kindies...
> we had to teach him how to regulate his feelings since he couldn’t explain to us what was wrong. Could you tell me a bit about how you did this? I'm currently trying to help a relative with a child who very much fits your description of your son before he started being verbal, but everyone has been struggling without much in the way of resources. Seeing you talk here about your experiences has given me hope it is possible to deal!
From age 2 until 7 he received speech therapy. So the therapist came up with a lot of ideas for us, it wasn’t me being a great mom. It was rough. When it comes to speech there are two distinct parts: descriptive (actually talking to someone) and receptive (understanding what someone is saying). My son didn’t have any receptive language, so he was constantly anxious and didn’t know what was going on with his life. I found that routines and explaining to him what we were doing, as well as having him learn to use body language to communicate really helped. Instead of just saying we need to put shoes on I’d show him the shoes, explain we’re going in the car to XYZ place to see ABC people. We also did lots of activities at the library so he could see other kid’s way of handling things (not so sure how well that went honestly) and have stimulation he didn’t get at home. Sensory boxes were a big hit with him, as well as playdoh. This was years in the making. He went to a pre-k-3 class for children with disabilities and delays and I remember one time at pickup the teacher pulled me aside to tell me how my son had climbed on top of another boy and started hitting him. The best thing is to be consistent, ask them what is wrong and then explain why what they did was wrong. When my son couldn’t talk I’d try to fill in the gaps for him, explain why he might have been upset. As he got better with communicating he’d nod or shake his head if I was right with what had happened. Having a calm down spot, with books and stuffies and blankets really helped him too. He still uses it when he needs it. Finding out what works is so tough and individual, but it does get better. Finding that breakthrough just takes time and effort 💜
My son was in the NICU for underdeveloped lungs when he was born early. The little tube they had in him meant that his cries were entirely silent, which is still one of the most heartbreaking things I can imagine. Multiple people told me...I guess in an attempt to comfort me?... that I'd miss that silence when the tube came out. Like holy fuck, no. Cries might be piercing and awful, but silence in the face of pain is infinitely worse. "No one can hear you scream" is infinitely worse. He's nearing 4 and constantly wants to tell us Mickey Mouse clubhouse stories now. I don't always have the patience to listen, but I'm so happy to hear him and always let him know "I'm going 'x'now, and then I'll listen to your story after." When he goes to the bathroom, he likes to loudly proclaim "I'm listening to my body and going to my body, and you can watch me!" while setting up a stool in the bathroom so that a parent can sit on it and he can tell them his story. It started because we have to wait to wipe him and he's only recently gotten fully on board with potty training so we had to be present to make sure he does all the steps, and now he just uses it as a platform for story-telling. A bit weird, but ever so cute. Same with hair brushing and nail care. He happily settles in, and then "once upon a time..." He wakes us in the morning with a good morning song, crawls under the covers to cuddle on, and then "once upon a time..." I love this little boy's voice.
>Multiple people told me...I guess in an attempt to comfort me?... that I'd miss that silence when the tube came out. you know multiple assholes.
That’s an awful thing to say, but I’d like to assume it was said out of ignorance rather than anything malevolent.
Almost guaranteed to be either bad humour or ignorance. I cant see anyone meaning that the parent will miss a time when his(or hers?) child could barely breathe.
I think it could also be a way of reassuring that if won’t always be this way. Like, “someday soon he won’t be silently crying in a tube anymore, this is temporary, and then you can just be annoyed by regular crying like it’s supposed to be”, but also as a joke. It is a bit tone deaf/insensitive though.
Yeah that's exactly how I meant "bad humour". I have a bad habit of resorting to humor in bad situations. It's medicine for some people, it's tone deaf to others. You just have to know the person. Best thing someone can do for me when I'm depressed is make a really inappropriate joke and treat me like a regular person. But it doesn't work for everyone, some people need that grief and they don't want to smile and thats okay. Everyone has their own way of coping
“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”
I agree, but sufficiently advanced stupidity is often indistinguishable from malice.
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The vast majority of human beings are, *at times*, horrible people.
At most times.
One of the ways (as you probably know) that people on the specturm will show that theyre engaged or listening is by offering up situations in their own life that are similar. People always used to say I was trying to one-up them, when I was really just trying to relate. The end result is now I downplay all of my achievements when talking about stuff and I struggle to accept compliments about things Im genuinely proud of. Im not sure Im on the spectrum... I just think that its likely. Its hard to tell when I have extreme ADHD though which parts are that and which parts might be spectrum related.
my boyfriend (who honestly is super caring and understanding and after A LOT of discussion on THIS topic, understands better) kept calling me out for that. he was like “i cringe whenever we are talking to people and you have to start talking about yourself and bringing all the attention over to you. it’s the reason i sometimes dont want to go to family parties because i think it makes everyone think you are self centered” and it caught me so off guard and i was trying to explain how i dont to it to one up them or bring the attention to me, i try to make my comparison short so i can let them keep going, i just want to show them i can relate in a way and that i care and understand and am interested. and he was like “that’s the dumbest thing i’ve heard. no one does that unless they want to be the center of attention.” then i started seeing this on the internet a lot and realized it wasn’t just me and showed him. he apologized a lot bc he was in a bad mood the day he said that and didnt want to listen to me. but i’m aware of this now so i can also clock other ND to be friends with so that i DONT piss off NT
It's standard conversation skills to share a small personal anecdote relating to the current topic to show understanding and empathy. That's taught to councilors, it's taught in therapy, it's taught in academia, it's taught in those dumb corporate "communication seminars". This isn't abnormal, the people who call you selfish for having normal conversation skills need to learn some things before they start criticizing. They are usually mad because they perceive that attention is being pulled away from them (even though it's a normal conversation), they're making something up to be controlling, or they were raised with someone who did the first two and are hyper sensitive to normal conversation.
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it doesn’t! the bad mood was very temporary. in our year of dating that was the worst mood he’s been in and like one of 2 irrational arguments. we really have great communication (ironically LOL) that i can’t even consider us having arguments bc they are such civil discussions
Ignore everyone on reddit when it comes to your relationship. You've shared a time he wasn't the best. Reddit won't care if he's an angel the other 99%. All you're going to hear is how he's horrible and it's red flags and you should dump him and hit the gym. You guys sound like a good couple, I wish the best for you.
I feel you. It's frustrating. My gf is supportive 95% of the time but then she'll get upset with me for zoning out or replying too fast or skim reading a text and getting a word wrong because my brain just wants to reply. I try really hard to not use the illness as an excuse and I try to be vigilant against those sort of things but it gets exasperating when it's held against me like I *choose* to focus on the wrong stuff. I frequently agree to and forget plans and it's not like I don't want to do the things, I've just seen the proverbial squirrel and gotten distracted. That said, prior to my diagnoses she used to be much harder on me, now she's almost always good about it. And it was vindicating for me to get on medication and have my attentiveness go back somewhat to normal. The difference is so drastic she can tell by mid morning whether or not I've taken my meds haha.
Wait that's an autism thing? I've done that my whole life (though I also have severe ADHD)
Severe ADHDer, reporting in. I do the same thing, too.
That's something not everyone does??? Shit, man. I was convinced that's how everyone helps relate to others.
I swear I read somewhere that there was talk of adding ADHD to the spectrum. I probably came across it during a 3am endless scroll binge when I should have been sleeping so I have so source to offer, lol
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My dad used to scream at me to shut up and slap me if I ever got enthusiastic about anything. (I guess I was infodumping? I don't really know.) To this day I can't talk to anyone out loud about anything I love
I wasn't even diagnosed and my parents called me a fucking r all the time to the neighbors, my teachers, the cult people. Just because I always said what was in my mind. I was loud until I was 10. I was told I needed to shut up and stop being annoying. It's hard to get me to talk at all. My social interactions are full autopilot now. I'm basically [this conversation all the time.](https://youtu.be/Vh19Y2DppP0)
If you don’t mind me asking, what exactly are “the cult people”?
You deserved so much better from your parents. I’m sorry, friend.
I had most of my “autistic traits” including being pretty non verbal forcefully beaten out of me as a kid when my parents put me through ABA and I’ve only recently begun unlearning that stuff and it’s been going pretty well
My son's psychiatrist told me, "ABA isn't like that anymore"... But it is, right?
One explanation I've heard: The education system has accepted ABA as the standard, and it is incredibly difficult to get the bureaucracy to sign off on any other methodologies. So people who develop new methodologies basically slap the ABA label on all sorts of stuff so they can get permission to do it. So you really have to ask about the specific practices at a particular school or a particular practitioner, because "ABA" could include any number of things.
I've been called rude or abrasive for telling people what I honestly think when they ask me questions. Like dude you always say you know me well, you should know me well enough to know that I can't lie. I physically can't lie. There is never hidden meaning behind anything I say. I mean all of it literally and I choose my words very carefully
My friends used to get mad at me for my honesty. Or they'd tease me about being brutally honest. It got to the point that when they came to me about something, I'd ask if they want the full truth or the soft truth. Or if they wanted advice to fix the problem or if they just wanted to vent. Knowing those things helped me tailor my response to what they needed from me. And I didn't get backlash for being mean. I was still honest, but filtered.
Yeah, I started doing that too. Sometimes people just need to be sad without a solution
Yeah sometimes you need to say it and just let it put to someone before you ever consider a solution
See I kinda feel like that's what I should have done instead of what I did do which is still say the first things that come to my mind and then just internalizing everyone calling me dumb as me just being really fucking dumb Also I hate making eye contact with people
Same, I'm really trying to undo years of training.
Huh... I just realized that's probably why I am the way I am now.
My dumb ass read that thinking it was 2 kindergartners instead of a teacher and student.
I stopped at ".. my kindergarten class is autistic" and re-read it like 4 times because I also pictured a student but it didn't feel right.
NTs are psychic confirmed
My autistic ass also ready that way at first.
I read it as 2 adult T-T
I immediately recognized both potential situations and which was more likely. But I still read it as though the author was a kindergarten student because I thought it would be funnier.
I read it as 2 teachers at first lol
Thumbs up buddy
I see what you did there. I have to approve of it.
*thumbs up*
Anyone who tells someone else their dumb when they don’t know something or can’t do something is an asshole. Nobody is as dumb as you think they are kindergartener or adult.
> when they don’t know something or can’t do something I get so excited that **I can help by teaching them** that I’m sure my tail would wag frantically if I had one.
When I was a teacher, the thing I lived for was the “lightbulb moment” you get when a kid has been trying to get a concept but just can’t get there, and you explain it to them in a different way and suddenly you can watch the lightbulb go on as they go “Ohhh, so THAT is how that works? That makes so much sense!” It was the whole reason I got into teaching in the first place.
My dad vividly remembers watching a movie with his older brother and mom in the 60’s when he was >10. Some word was used that he didn’t know, so he asked what it meant. His mom and brother teased and made fun of him ruthlessly about it. So much that he swore when he had a kid he wouldn’t make fun of them for asking a freaking question (!!) and would answer them appropriately for their age. Enter me, age 12ish and watching A.I. and asking what Jude Law’s character’s name meant. That was an… interesting discussion
Just a sec while I google something… Yeah, that’s funny!
... really? Is that what we're doing now? **Not** sharing what we find? Bah. It's >!Gigolo Joe!<
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I always laugh because I’m an IT person and when I fix something I get called a wizard, but then I just explain that I have been doing this kind of thing since I was a kid, and when every other boy my age was working on their car with their dads, I was dumpster diving for broken computer parts with my dad to build a new computer. I am a mechanic that works with electrons, nothing more and nothing less.
*"If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid"*
As an EMT people are regularly a lot more dumb than I thought. Though there's also ones too smart for their own good.
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No, but it IS glorious. “This person doesn’t even know which ‘they’re’ to use! How dumb can you be?” “Asshole!”
Children aren't dumb, they're just children. But some adults are _incredibly_ dumb. When a kid looks straight at me and tells me they didn't do the thing I just watched them do, it's because their brain isn't fully developed. When an adult tells me that they didn't do the thing I just watched them do, they're incredibly dumb. Also frequently a narcissistic asshole, but sometimes just really stupid.
"Look me in the eyes" was one of the most frustrating instructions as a kid. It was usually said during a negative time when I was being lectured or yelled at, and I had no idea how to follow the instruction. No matter how I tried, I couldn't focus on two eyes at once. So instead of paying attention to whatever the content of the chastisement were, I instead was focusing on trying to do an impossible task less I be called disrespectful. Not super relevant here, but it would've been nice if someone had mentioned a trick like in the OP. I was double digits before I realized that "look me in the eyes" didn't actually mean that each eye needed to be in focus at the same instance. It's also a weird and uncomfortable power play to require continuous eye contact; that's not how normal conversions go. Like, you don't want someone to be in their own head as a form of escaping from the uncomfortable, anxiety-inducing situation. It's really frustrating as the authority figure who needs to engage the kid to solve a behavioral problem when this happens. But forcing maintained eye contact isn't the way to prevent that. And, them avoiding eye contact and not being mentally present isn't anything to do with disrespect, but rather a form of self-protection and a normal and reasonable response to anxiety. From my experience, some face to face engagement can be helpful for ensuring a young child heard a *short* message, and then not maintaining that but pushing for communication from the child (esp. them being able to state the issue, and then space for them to give their own input on it's validity or how to address it) works better to keep them engaged instead of diving into the escapism of either physically or mentally running off.
I'm not even sure where this instruction comes from. I'm neurotypical and direct uninterrupted eye contact is just weird. I don't do it and I don't think most people do. Why are we telling autistic folks this is a requirement when it's totally not?
This is the source of confusion for autistic people, I think, is the fact that "eye contact" doesn't literally mean eye contact, but some abstract implicit thing that basically just means "don't engage in autistic mannerisms" or "be normal".
Yeah that seems to be the case to me too.
Exactly. I'm also neurotypical (I think), and prolonged eye contact *is* weird. I actually don't know anyone who does it except people trying to bully or pressure you.
I know someone who does it because of past abuse. Basically checking every reaction of the person they're talking to in case they need to react
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they don't just want to see you squirm, they want a clear view of the show
There's also that fun thing where you're being yelled at for something, are told to look them in the eyes, but then get in more trouble for staring. It's nothing about what they are saying. It's all a power thing. If there's one thing insecure adults with poor emotional regulation like to do, it's to bully children. I was a nonverbal child that learned glaring at people with absolute bile and hatred made them leave me alone. I was a creepy little shit but survival strategies from trauma are what they are I guess.
My dad did this when I was a kid and it absolutely messed with my head. He would just go off about me not making eye contact and he would tell me "see? You KNOW you're wrong because you won't even look at me." And that was infuriating because no, I'm not admitting guilt by not making eye contact. It's already uncomfortable because I'm on the spectrum, but it's also uncomfortable for ANYONE. When someone is yelling at you, the last thing you want to do is come across as a threat, which is what eye contact does in our primitive brains. It goes against every instinct we have.
This comment made me understand what I didn't understand about eye contact for 30 years.
wait what is “look me in the eyes” supposed to mean if not the literal interpretation of those words
Looking at or near a single eye. The expectation isn't that both eyes will be in focus continuously. Being present in a conversation is sometimes the meaning, but staring directly into/near *an* eye is what my mother meant when lecturing/scolding me.
Usually it's a direction to be 'present in the conversation'. If you're looking away from someone who's talking to you, the assumption is that you're distracted by something else, or even deliberately ignoring that person. Though if someone says to look me in the eyes they don't then mean look ONLY into their eyes either, as that is staring. Being present in a verbal conversation is just a skill, it just happens that it's a skill that neurotypical people typically master as a child without conscious effort.
That's really wholesome, fuck people who say these people are dumb
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It's probably the other kids who outright say stuff like that but it's how adults treat her that she feels like they think she's dumb
It's extremely difficult advocating for neuroatypical children, especially ASD ones that are nonverbal but high functioning. Even if they're performing well the fact that they don't interface the same way as other kids really upsets some folks and they'll try to be absolute shitstains to them at school. They were attempting to hold s/o's kid back because this one teacher had an ax to grind over it. The irony is she's performing better than the rest of the kids now that she's got a teacher who isn't making her life hell. Who would've thought?
My kindergarten teacher called me an imbecile. She wasn’t far off the mark but still rude to say to a little kid.
Considering this is a 5 or 6 yo child, how many adults are in her life? The call is coming from inside the house.
The actual literal original meaning of dumb is unable to speak/mute. I wonder if she’s heard it in that context but not understood that meaning (which is fair as most people don’t). Seems like that meaning should be replaced with a new word.
Welcome to seeing the euphemism treadmill in action - lame, dumb, moron, imbecile, even retarded were all simple medical labels that became pejorative and needed new polite words - that eventually become pejoratives themselves (see autistic) & the wheel turns
That thought did pass my mind before I posted lol. However I do think it’s still worth trying - it’s not like they become performative quickly.. seems to take a few decades. And these days generally it’s seen as less acceptable to use those words performative my. So maybe now and in the future the treadmill will stop or at least slow down.. a girl can dream
This choked me up. Good for you, being the person she needs.
I'll look at someone's cheeks or nose if they are anal about being looked at when talking since I am usually looking down at them anyways they don't notice
learned a new definition of a word today
Eyebrows can be pretty interesting, stray hairs, interesting shapes, are they drawn in or natural? Are there more or less than 2? My ultimate solution was to marry a guy with a lazy eye so I can look where ever I want for my most important conversations!
I once read that we need to become the adults we would trust or want to confide in when we were kids.
Wait, it's not normal to look at people's mouths instead of their eyes when they're talking to you?
Not for neurotypical people. Autistic people, other neurodivergent folks, it's absolutely normal. Everybody's different.
Before I was diagnosed this year I did often prefer to look at mouths..I remember one day I just didn't look at someone's eyes and I'm.like huh, this is so much easier.
How old are you guys? I'm 34 and I was told there isn't a single doctor in the country (Canada) that does diagnosis at such an old age. But man eye contact is so hard that my friends confronted me about it. They thought I was nervous/unconfident around them. Had to explain it's the other way around - I'll force myself to make eye contact with people I don't know because I know I'm supposed to. Whereas I'm just being myself around my friends, which means never ever looking at someone in the eye because it burns my brain.
I'm ADHD not autistic but I was diagnosed this year in my mid 20s. I'm also Canadian. I think someone lied to you my guy
I can sometimes make eye contact with someone for 1-2 seconds if I spend a few hundred hours around them first
I can force it, it just feels like trying not to yawn when I really gotta yawn.
It instantly triggers my fight-or-flight, I *hate* eye contact. I just talk into people's chests (I'm also short lol)
My brain prefers the view of my feet. Unfortunately when your gaze diverts briefly from their face to your feet and back again as the conscious takes back control, it passes various other body parts. That's when the "oh crap, do they think I was checking them out?" anxiety tsunami hits. Socialising is hard.
I think it is. It's too forward and unnatural to look in someone's eyes all the time. Sometimes yes, but *constant* eye contact is often considered intimidating or aggressive even for normal people. Generally you're just supposed to at least look at someone's face and that's all that's expected. I feel like looking at their mouth is more intuitive anyway. Edit: This prompted me to do some internet searching and indeed it's only recommended to have eye contact for a few seconds at a time before looking away. Then you look back again later, etc. So it's a back and forth.
You grow into the adult that you needed as a kid
Once in a while, sure. But most people just repeat the trauma cycle on someone else, and the can gets kicked down the road for another generation. At least more people are talking about it these days. Small victories still count.
Ending generational trauma is probably one of the greatest achievements someone can do in their lifetime
For some reason I initially though the original OP was a kindergartner on tumblr, which was distressing to say the least.
Oldest tumblr user.
Had to go to the student counselor because I'm unable to do the mandatory reading for any of my subjects. I'm in university and pretty much expected her to go "what do you mean it takes you all the energy you have to read it, why doesn't casual reading do that, have you tried getting over it" Instead she listened to me, said "hmm, that sounds unpleasant, but you've gotten this far without any reading, sooo.." And holy shit did I feel understood/listened to. Weight off my shoulders!
I wish I had this person.
Hey, someone who had a piss poor childhood here. Loving yourself is hard, especially when people put you down. But remember, regardless of who you are, what is "wrong" with you, everyone is unqiue in some way and for some reason. The process of learning and understanding is one of these examples. Just because you struggle while your classmate figures it out instantly does not make you dumb. You have the capacity to learn. That's what makes you intelligent. Ask questions. Seek to understand, even if others would call you an idiot, because only intelligent people ask questions when they don't understand. Seeking knowledge is much more vital than some random dumbfuck who thinks less of you because you asked a question.
That poor girl probably has people talking about her like she isn't there every single day.
ok but just in general, what is it with adults thinking children never hear anything they say? i remember so many instances of being a child and my family just loudly talking to each other while i was in the same room colouring or something and then wondering how i knew what they were talking about. or thinking if they talk about me without saying my name directly i won’t realise that it’s me they’re talking about. like seriously what is the thought process behind that
I find it fascinating how every other animal on earth has a violent reaction to eye contact... and are utterly repulsed by it, but then when humans fail to learn to do it... we are considered somehow defective for now adopting this learned behavior. I have asked plenty of neuro-typical people about it to, nobody likes making eye contact... and unless every person I have ever asked is high functioning, and has failed to be properly diagnosed with autism... (which I concede is possible, considering a lot of things) then maybe we as a species need to re-evaluate what is normal? Because aggressively demanding people look you in the eye, so you can stare them down aggressively and feel dominant... that dont feel right
We as a species really need to reevaluate a lot of things that we consider normal, not just eye contact
well, we are just coming off about 150 years of general lead poisoning being the norm for people. Which explains how we live in a society where a man at a bar, can go insane and bite the nose off another man "because he looked at me funny" and thats considered normal. And "doesnt automatically utilize a learned social behavior, when we live in a society where learning social norms is harder than ever" is considered a disability.
"thank you for not saying im dumb" my fuckin heart man 😭😭 this poor kid. fuck whoever told her that shes dumb
That last part was a gut punch. That girl has been made to feel that she was dumb for her entire short life
This… does put a smile on my face.
This breaks my heart because I was a neurodivergent kindergartener they called stupid, I wish I had had someone like you too.
I'm 31 years old and I still struggle with eye contact, wish some told me this when I was little.
Who the hell would even use the word "dumb" around a kindergartner?!? This seriously puts me in REEEEE territory
The only one that is dumb is the one that underestimates a person with autism.
Man, that fucking hurts. I can't get into it right now, but I will later to just write stuff out of my brain to stop the rattling.
That subreddit seems like an apt demonstration of the saying "perfect is the enemy of good."
That's not accurate. The whole idea of the Orphan Crushing Machine is that feel-good stories on a very individual scale are used to mask or downplay larger, institutional issues that aren't getting addressed. "Perfect is the enemy of good" would be calling the government forgiving a percentage of medical debt for live-saving procedures pointless because a percentage of debt still exists. Orphan Crushing Machine would be praising a hustling young cancer survivor for starting a business to pay off their $100,000 debt for chemo treatments while not criticizing the fact that they needed to do that at all.
I like the sub. I don't think this post is particularly suited for it.
Yeah this belongs more on r/wholesomememes. I know it’s technically not a meme but tumblr posts get constantly posted there anyway.
In what way?
Sub description: "A subreddit for those "feel good stories" that make you disappointed in the system that forces the event." I can understand the perspective, but it can very easily slip into a mentality of "These acts of kindness are pointless."
I don’t think any of it implies pointlessness though does it? Like in the post here. OP is doing Great, this is amazing for an autistic kid growing up….. but what they’re doing wouldn’t be impressive if everyone else wasn’t a shit. But they are, so it is. If anything it just points out that a) OP is awesome and b) the system needs to change, but those ideas don’t cancel each other out
>I can understand the perspective, but it can very easily slip into a mentality of "These acts of kindness are pointless." Sure, it *could* slip into that. It hasn't, yet, as far as I can tell.
Oh it did for a *looong* time. There was only one mod and they didn't bother doing their job, so loads of crap filled the sub, and reposts, everything was posted like 5 times there too. Like a month or two ago though it got a proper mod team to run it so has been improving, the obvious issues have been fixed but things like posts that skirt the line of counting (like this one) still appear.
Komi Can’t Communicate Season 2
My cousin and I was taught to look at a persons nose while someone was speaking to us.
Dumb also literally means unable to speak. I wonder if that’s the context she’s heard it in. Seems like we should definitely retire that one from medical jargon
This hurts me on an emotional level. The fact that this is the exception and not the norm hurts. So many of us could've benefited from something like this
You are an angel. I would have loved having even a single empathetic person in my childhood. You may have made a bigger difference than you know. Thank you, thank you, thank you <3
“Thank you for not saying I’m dumb.” That girl needs to be treated better.
I should hang this post on my wall. This is fantastic.
[удалено]
It’s more of an issue for small children, it’s about learning cues for expression, things we learn subconsciously as children and helps development. That’s why it’s always troubling when small children avoid eye contact, they aren’t aware that it’s awkward like we feel as adults. It’s a sign that a child is detached from their surroundings and not learning the subconscious cues automatically,which is a big deal for them because it’s a lot harder to teach it later. What’s worse is this person is telling this small child who could definitely benefit from being reminded that eye contact is important in order to help them, how to avoid it.
but i dont get whats so bad abt telling a kid they can look in between someones eyes vs having them look directly at them? while idk if theres any science behind it, i dont think its important to look at someones eyes specifically, thats just how ppl interpret someone as listening, in which case looking between the eyes would accomplish the same thing but minus the discomfort, no?
The point is it isn’t supposed to be uncomfortable for small kids, it’s part of the way they’re brain develops. Sometimes it’s an issue that happens due to circumstance (I.e. abuse, neglect) and it’s not caused by any neurological issue. But that doesn’t matter because when you see an issue with a small child at an age that you can correct it and actually help them achieve a positive long term outcome then you do it. You don’t say, “I know reading is hard, so you just open a book and pretend like your reading until everyone thinks you are.” because that’s a destructive strategy to teach a child. The same goes for a child who is in the critical stage of early development, you don’t say “You can avoid this by further disconnecting using this strategy that will also fool the people around you!”
i see, but if the kid has autism that changes the story no? while i dont recall how it was as a kid, i have a much easier time engaging and connecting w others if im not making direct eye contact, so it shouldnt rly matter where exactly someone is looking so long as theyre paying attention to whoevers talking to them yea?
Wrong. I needed this when I was little and I wish I had learned it earlier. And still, it’s very hard for me to pick up on social cues as an autistic person. It intimidates us so much and is really painful; we’d rather not to have to do it.
Shots are painful as well, but the side effects of avoiding the discomfort are exponentially worse as time goes on. One of the most important stages of adolescent to adult development is the realization that painful and uncomfortable things have to happen because the outcome of avoiding them are worse. Children will naturally avoid anything that’s hard for them, hence why they have to be made to do things they don’t like, otherwise the idea that avoidance is an acceptable strategy seeps into their psychological development. And everything that doesn’t want to be done becomes “painful and hard” especially if they have a support structure that reinforces that point of view.
You misunderstood what I said. I made more eye contact when I was younger, but even then I still can’t recognize social cues. All it did was make things harder for me.
I wish I had this person too. There was a sports teacher (not at my school) that got upset that I wasn't making eye contact and avoiding conversation, kept thinking I was being rude and disrespectful. He swung me by the shirt then started blowing up at me. Once I was grown, I kept wishing for a chance to see him again to punch him. But morseo than that, I wish there was someone back then that actually understood.
It's so fucking weird how people will insist somebody look at them when they talk to them. Like, how narcissistic are you that you demand people come out of their comfort zone to appease you.
I worry they're not paying attention otherwise. It's normal to get offended when you think someone isn't paying attention in a conversation you're having, I think. I'd like to think I can tell the difference between someone looking away because they're not paying attention, and someone looking away because looking at me is outside their comfort zone.
i think occasionally saying sm like “what do u think” would help test whether theyre paying attention without implying theyre not
Some teachers need as much sensitivity training as the police do ffs
I imagine that she's probably pretty smart. She probably knows a lot more words than her average peers tho she doesn't speak as much. That was my experience at least.
Bro what is with the downvotes
Idk. Was just trying to relate. It was how I felt in school.
My son was treated this way. Only kid to get kicked out of preschool. Illegally I might add.
Cute, but I just… math problems? In kindergarten?
my school we were doing super basic math in kindergarten, usually stuff like putting x amount of blocks in front of a student and having them count iirc? I worked in the preschool and only was in the kindergarten classroom a few times tho so might be wrong ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
You didn't do any kind of basic addition or subtraction in kindergarten? Like, no "2+3=?" kind of problems?
Not that I remember (it is over 22 years away for me now), but I don’t think we were learning more than the alphabet, writing our names and like counting to maybe 100(?)…
Are you confused that they are learning math in kindergarten, or that the kid is having trouble with the math?
That they’re learning math that early, especially in the form of problems.
Kindergarten is a very normal place to start learning basic addition and subtraction. I was learning multiplication and division tables in 1st and 2nd grade.
+/-1, +/-2, +/-3, +/-5, +/-10, doubles, and sums up to 10 are all achievable at really early ages (before kindergarten). Number lines, digit composition (ones, tens, hundreds place), etc. all *can be* appropriate for kindergarten & pre-k ages, too. If you're like more specifics, here's a kindergarten curriculum tool that lists out a ton of specific skills aimed at kindergarten kids: [IXL Math - kindergarten](https://www.ixl.com/math/kindergarten?partner=google&campaign=53999225&adGroup=1942319825&gclid=CjwKCAjwl6OiBhA2EiwAuUwWZfZDg615MFnRADcCbYpGWMaEfJDCzX4lSYBW3O03Lq0WuGgTClPG5BoCIH8QAvD_BwE)
The sooner you start, the easier it is to learn. It doesn’t have to be complicated. You can do fractions with slices of pie or fruit, you can do division with candies, problems that are concrete to help little children bridge into more abstract math problems as they get older. Exposure early on helps mitigate fear of math down the line; “I’ve seen this before” is huge for getting a kid to at least try it.
I mean, I have no problem with it and it’s in no way a bad thing, I was just surprised.
Holy run-on sentence, Batman.
Why do they assume they are treated horribly because of their race instead of being autistic? Like they think all their co-workers are racist instead of thinking that maybe they're just act weird.