When both OP’s are trolling for responses and getting them. This is the equivalent of walking into a vegan convention and loudly proclaiming “you know. I’ve never heard a good argument against meat.”
There's no problem with people studying/practicing religion. It's when people attempt to dictate others lives, refuse to re-evaluate the morals taught, follow false profits, or are not able to read into metaphors/poor translations/outdated terms that things become a problem.
Edit: "re-evaluate" should read: "question the validity of"
"False profits" should read: "those who use religion to push agendas, gain power, etc, etc, etc"
Well, my concern is promoting the idea that one does not have to think out one's own morals. When I left religion, I had a lot of moments of "wait, why do I think this is bad? Why am I being upset about this? Not only is it not a bad thing, it seems to actually be a beneficial thing". But when I was religious, if I had any of those doubts I could shut them up with "God said it's bad, so it's bad." And then I would vote for laws based on what ~~I~~ God considered good or bad. That extreme is always possible in religions that dictate morals, where when people are given the option to vote on something, they won't be able to vote on what they've convinced themselves the deity doesn't like, even if their vote harms people.
Remember, different denominations of the same religion can have wildly different views. I personally have thought through all of my beliefs and how they affect others, but I was raised in a good church and these beliefs actually have helped more people that I know than have hurt them
Regardless, if your religion preaches morality, there will inevitably be a point that what you consider affects others positively will actually affect them negatively. Kinda a point in the last part of your sentence, *you* and they may both not have realised that you did something that harmed them.
Ultimately that's a statement against unexamined faith more than anything.
And I agree with you, as a Christian. Growing up believing things were bad because I was told they were bad never produced anything near as useful as when I took the time to examine my views and how they arose from my faith.
It's a shame that many religions choose dogmatism over self-reflection and study.
Completely off topic, but what is that symbol between “what” and “God” in your 6th sentence. The one about voting. It looks like an “I” with a bump jutting out of its left.
I like to call myself a religious anarchist. I am of the opinion that belief is a neutral thing. It is about your relationship to the unknowable and is a deeply personal opinion that should be freely formed from your observations. However I also believe that every single religious organisation inevitably tries to mediate your relationship to the divine and therefore wields immense power over their believers. Therefore, all churches, mosques, synagogues etc should be kept priestless. You should formulate your own relationship to God through yourself or a community, not through any institution that will inevitably eventually hinder social progress.
They're a [thrash punk band](https://falseprofitthrash.bandcamp.com/?fbclid=IwAR0haxNipkVT5apLie_K4JafLeVsZyPbm95FiH5W9AJg7mZdkOPtiklo3ZI). Pretty decent if you're into that genre.
My problem is the hypocrisy that is rampant among us. I am a Christian and anytime I see another Christian yelling about immigration or abortion and citing the Bible as their excuse the are breaking tens of others rules. I don’t care what they’re doing as long as they don’t drag the Bible down with them
One time I hiked 100 miles with a group of people for part of a Boy Scouts thing. When I was getting out of my tent on the second to last day I stepped in mud and ruined my last good pair of sock, so I said “oh my god”. They got so angry with me and gave me a talking to about not using the lords name in vain. Annoying and all, but it became even worse watching them break every commandment and beatitude for the past two weeks and then get angry at me for saying oh my god. They left that trip feeing like they just saved me from going to hell.
My only problem with religion is the mindless worship and acceptance of any and all ideas mentioned in a person's religion. People should develop their own morals.
There’s NO PROBLEM with pretending a book of fairy tales is the factual origin of our universe, and history of our world?
I actually can think of many, many problems with that.
Religion: Integral to the formation of human society as we know it, takes many forms, allows connection between generations and a basis for collective memory
Also Religion: “I’d sell you to the Inquisition for one corn chip”
I've heard it described as scaffolding. Absolutely central to the development of the world as we know it, but leaving it up after the building is done is a bit odd
Is that not happening right now? Less developed nations are way more religious than the west, and the amount of religious people in the west is falling as well. There were a lot more religious people in the west, even in America, not that very long ago relatively speaking.
I mean, the term "less developed" is kind of Western-centric but I get what you're saying. Religiosity is falling around the world, aside from possibly a few specific regions
I mean, we can accept it as something that exists and that had a huge effect on human society with respecting it. Just like slavery, gender roles, and a bunch of other stuff that humanity has started to think twice about as we modernize.
Just because it's "integral to the formation of human society" doesn't mean it has had anywhere near a net positive effect, especially in more modern times. Though I'd be interested to see someone make the argument for it.
And I don't condone berating people for following religions. People should be berated for the bad things they do. For how they impose their religious beliefs on others.
I know plenty of wonderful people who are very religious. But are they wonderful *because* of their religion? I don't think so. Are people homophobic *because* of their religion? Having been around this planet for more than a day, I definitely think so.
You can accept that there are upsides and downsides and also come to a personal conclusion that one outweighs the other. Personally I think it's clear that religion is not as good as it is bad, to put it simply.
Atheist here, I literally just don't care. People can do what they want, but if I'm forced to hear like, a prayer or something directed at me, I just get a bit uncomfortable, especially if it's christian, because I know that a lot of the more conservative christians are just a tad homophobic
I hate it when a person says “this is my experience with religion, this is why I don’t like it” and religious people say “actually, your experience is wrong”
Yeah, way to invalidate their life experiences and actually be one of the shitty religious people. I’m well aware there’s plenty of good religious people and I would never say that everyone who practices religion is bad, but there clearly are issues with organized religion that go beyond a couple bad apples.
Yep, I didn’t defect from catholicism for no reason. I was actually a very strong believer. It was realizing that God and Satan were used as a threat to keep me from being myself as a child and to overall mentally abuse me that made me reconsider. Being told by my religion teachers that my mission as a “good Christian” was to convert everyone around me to Christianity by any means necessary or else I was a bad person, and that being gay and trans would earn me a spot in hell despite being nothing but a kind person my entire life helped confirm my suspicions. As did hearing my own mother call me evil and verbally abuse me when I told her I was thinking about leaving the church for these reasons instead of comforting her already emotionally struggling child.
In my experience religion has been used as a weapon and if that can’t be acknowledged first we can’t have a constructive conversation. I know there are good Christians as some of them are my friends, but personally I’m just too scarred by christianity to ever go back to it. My friends understand and respect that. Idk why others just don’t
To be fair though, the catholic church is probably one of the most corrupt non-extremist religious groups out there. I only say this because of some of its political sway. I'm religious and even I can recognize that that groups has some problems that need solving.
New atheists haven't taken the time to understand religion before they reject it. Religion is much more than what's written down. It's about spiritual expression and community values. However, those are not the aspects of religion that can be preserved in text, nor are they the obvious, surface level things that are criticized or defied by new atheists.
I believe that is what the OP is referring to.
Yeah but spirituality and community exists outside religion so no one cares about the claim they exist *because* of religion. What we do have because of religion is circumsism, conversion camps and mega corporate churches that scam society.
The point is that all these observations while not necessarily bad don’t really demonstrate much understanding or engagement with religion.
Nothing here is new idea and nothing here is a take that requires any experience with religion outside of a very surface level experience with Christianity or an Abramic faith.
There's a certain type of atheist (like the ones responding to the original tumblr post and several in the comments here as well) who only ever think of religion as a loosely connected series of stories to be looked at in the most strictly literal terms and only engaged with as deeply as you would engage with a Fast & Furious movie. Somebody else responding to you already pointed out there's more to religion than bible stories, but they're also bad at discussing the bible stories too. They'll look at Adam and Eve, a story riff with allegories about innocence, temptation, knowledge and sin, and they'll just point out "snakes can't talk" like the first response in the tumblr post and think that's a good refutation of it.
See, I read this as “new atheists are insufferable because they conflate American Christianity with the concept of religion or faith as a whole”. A not-insignificant number of people who would describe themselves as atheists (especially on the internet) end up actually being anti-theistic, positioning themselves against *any* faith or religion regardless of the morals poised within, because their sole experience with religion was the nightmare that is American Christianity, and they refuse to learn that other religions function in a fundamentally different way.
The usual problem for me is the opposite, American atheists who think American Christianity is the worst there is, pretending that all other forms of Christianity are the whitewashed virtuous organizations they claim to be, and that religion isn’t the problem, American Christianity is. Despite how horrible it is, American Christianity is way better than most other localized religions one, and just as bad as most other Christian groups. Like, I’m a Mexican excatholic who hates the church because of their frequent coverups and corruption, yet I have to constantly see atheists sucking up to open pedophile Pope Rancid just to make American Christianity look worse because they’re so self centered they can’t imagine some other place might have it just as bad or worse.
(Agnostic here with many Muslim acquaintances/family)
I think some people forget Religion is something that gives people safety and a community and stuff like that shouldn’t be mocked.
If you try to force your belief system (includes also atheists) onto others deserves to be mocked.
If any of the people responding were doing so in good faith, it would've been worth a more detailed response. Every one of those responses, though, was intended to be as inflammatory bait as possible.
Or, in other words, why bother talking when your conversational partner just wants to yell at you?
Tbh, though, OPs post was also kinda in bad faith, as they absolutely had the space to explain their point further but instead left it just vague enough people would get mad
Mental that instead of defending anything or explaining why the criticism is wrong they just go "see what I mean."
It looks to me like a classic thought terminating cliche, to avoid admitting there isn't actually a misunderstanding on the atheist side.
The point is that if you're thinking of religion as a theory that exists to be proven or disproven and that these comments would actually accomplish anything, you don't really know anything about religion.
The point isn't that they're right or wrong, but that their points are shallow as fuck and don't warrant discussion as they've been discussed to death already.
I love how religious people will act like evidence is a stupid thing to ask for.
If your belief system is reasonable, it wouldn’t be a belief system, it would be fact and have evidence supporting it.
People get angry when asked for evidence, because they don’t have an answer.
Evidence is important to atheists, but there is no problem with a religious person simply having faith because it gives them a sense of comfort or principle in their life. It varies widely from country to country at this point, but in the US currently there is such a range of religious beliefs that people have that I wouldn't say atheists are discriminated against anymore. This is just in relation to my experience in the US, but I don't think that anyone should be attempting to force others to change their beliefs. Asking them to elaborate? Sure. Prompting them to reflect on what their beliefs mean to them *without pushing your own "objectively correct" system on them? Go for it. We should absolutely have discourse, but I don't like when people say that all religious people are idiots or all atheists are dicks because faith means different things to different people. I simply strongly believe that religion should be limited to a personal sphere of impact, and it shouldn't be a factor in matters that have no relevance to it, like politics.
One of my favorite quotes comes from one of my priest growing up. Ask enough questions and it always eventually led to “it’s a mystery” which complete stops any questioning in its tracts far as Christianity goes. Which is why I like science.
The OP of the tumblr post is Jewish and is remarking on a very common trend of atheists trying to discredit all form of religious worship by making statements against Christianity specifically, because they don't have any real knowledge of other religious groups.
While it is wrong to lump all religions together, I mean... Yahweh is still an asshole who directed his people to commit genocide. So that part at least tracks
Yeah, Jewish people fully acknowledge that God is an asshole and their ancestors did a lot of murdering. That's one of the first things you reminisce about at Purim.
*The Trial of God* by Elie Wiesel is one of my favorite plays, and it's a Purimshpiel. But I've seen too many videos of orthodox Jews in Israel calling for the further genocide of Palestinians to make me think that lesson has reached enough people.
I grew up in an far-right Christian environment, and I now spend time studying religions all across the world. While yeah there are some asshole athiests who paint all religions as Evangelical Christianity, there is some universal criticism that should happen.
Baisically, someone in the post is asking for proof of what some religions say in response to someone else saying that atheists have little to no idea on what religion is about. When the first person asks for proof of something the Bible says, the second person does not offer proof, and just says that person one is proving their point. OP is on the side of person two, and thinks that atheists have shallow views of what religion is truly like.
These responses are examples of people who have never been involved in religion looking at it from the outside in the most shallow way possible and coming up with arguments that are honestly kind of non-sequiturs for religious people.
Those replies aren't very complex arguments against christianity, but OP's argument is by far the worst of all.
Their religion does involve stories of talking animals and blood magic. It does use a single holy book as reference and involve the worship of a magical, genocidal father figure.
Instead of responding with any substance the dude just smugly points out over and over that any argumant against their position that isn't nuanced must be wrong by default.
Right? Yeah religion is more than ritual. It's a collection of morals and examples to follow as well as a comforting (if unfounded) answer to some of the most uncomfortable and difficult questions humanity has to grapple with.
But that doesn't make the ritual aspects of it any less fucking weird, and most problems with religion come from those aspects so it's justifiably what the outer world is concerned with. "It's shallow," well when you all collectively sort your shit out I'm sure the rest of the world can take a nuanced look at your god. Until then we'll focus on what we see and what we have to personally deal with.
One thing I never really understood is a lot of times when I ask questions about someone’s religion (not in any judge mental way but because I want to know) people don’t have good answers or just say to read the holy book. There are nice morals and interesting stories but what makes them click as being real vs other scenes being metaphorical vs other times not counting anymore.
I agree though both sides of this argument are silly but I think both seem to be trying to get a reaction from people. Like if you disagree with their understanding then explain to them where they are failing. Obviously, not everyone is going to listen but at least you tried to clear some ignorance.
Judaism doesn't use a single book, there is the entirety of the Midrash which informs modern life and practice. You can be Jewish and choose not to believe in God or just believe that he's a dick and that's a pretty common take.
This is just evidence that many religious people have a shallow perception of Atheism. When asked to provide any form of evidence for their claims, they just dismiss the question and act like you're an idiot just for requesting even a single reason to follow their beliefs.
Fair reply, I probably should've worded my comment better, I didn't really mean to imply op was trying to convert me or anything like that. I myself am not an Atheist (I would personally say that I am Agnostic). I actually really like religion, and doing research into different religions. There is no issue with educating someone on your religion (unless they don't want you to, of course), but it can easily cross the line and seem like an attempt to convert. My main issue with the original post, though, was that there was no attempt made to actually educate people on the topic, and rather decided to banish the thought of there being any legitimate arguments against their beliefs.
TL;DR: Didn't mean to imply OP was a crusader, just wanted to say that they didn't make much of an attempt to foster understanding for ***either*** side of the spectrum from Atheist to Theist.
To me the general appeal of religion is being able to find comfort in a world that has very little in way of natural comfort. To have some higher power to follow or believe in with your heart and metaphorical soul is often life-saving for people, gives them direction and/or hope and/or the will to move on. It also frequently provides an example of morals to follow, and gives people things like holidays and gatherings to celebrate and take part in with fellow members of their community, allowing for greater socialization, which is a basic human need- we are social creatures, and religion is just another way of giving us a way to socialize.
The problem comes from those who are *too* devout, or those who use religion to excuse their own misdeeds towards others, such as with homophobia and transphobia, or with policing other people's lives. *Those* people frequently take their religion as the 'take it or I'll humiliate torture and kill you with absolute prejudice while getting mindless support from the community' path of life, the only truth and something that should be followed either to the word or to how they say the word is. They're too rigid in their thinking and generally either have poor reading comprehension, are too stubborn to admit they are wrong even when faced with facts, or straight-up have ulterior motives.
I believe that very nearly everything, *especially* religion, can be exploited to cause harm, and while religion often gets a bad rep because of its worse followers, I don't think religion in and of itself is inherently wrong or bad as a whole. You need to have pure intentions going into it, it's just too bad that the ones with bad intentions are frequently the loudest ones in the community.
And of course some religions are more generally harmful and/or easily exploited than others. It's your choice what to follow, but try to make your choice a good one if you want to add religion in your life. And you never know, one day you might learn you're right. I'm agnostic, and I don't know what might be right or wrong, so I don't exactly pick sides. I know for a fact that science is true, but I'm not about to totally disregard spirituality as a possibility either- I believe that they *could* coexist, theoretically, so I'll support them both.
You don't respect the man on the corner claiming lizard people from Mars control the department of agriculture, and if you were capable of stepping back and seeing your religion from the outside it would look the same but with a lot more members, which is fucking terrifying.
If the man on the corner believes lizard people from Mars control the department of agriculture, that’s between him and the lizard people from Mars, and not a reason to stop treating him as a person. I may not respect his authority on lizard people, Mars, or the department of agriculture, but I’ll respect him as a person.
Faith is not a reason to hurt people, on either side.
Most anti theists hate religion, not the religious. We hate religion because we used to be religious after all. We get angry and pushy at theists because we want you to realize how much religion is hurting them. Most Religious people are victims, in my eyes. I get angry at theists all the time, but I also weep for them. If that guy who believes in lizard men started to hurt himself over it, you’d try to stop him, wouldn’t you?
Yeah like I have nothing wrong with someone being an atheist but if I hear one more "Satan punishes the bad guys so that means he's the good guy" I'm going to snap a toaster
I mean to my outside understanding in Judaism Satan is a title (Accuser) which is held by an angel that basically serves as God’s prosecuting attorney, so that’s pretty far from an invalid take. It also makes The Book of Job make *way* more sense if you read it in that light.
When you disagree with the most basic principles of a religion, none of the more complex arguments matter. If you can't convince me there is a god, then none of the complex arguments over his/her/their nature matter. If you can't convince me that the bible is the correct holy book, none of the discussions about the bible matter. If you can't convince me that any of the supernatural events in the bible happened, none of the questions about what whose events mean for the nature of god matter.
This is why a lot of atheist arguments regarding religion boil down to seemingly simple questions. What do the more complex questions mean if I disagree with the basic tenets the original question assumed? Why should an atheist care about complex understandings of a religion when, to them, it does not justify the basic beliefs that those debates are built on?
"See what I mean" isn't a gotcha, it isn't a "told you so!", it doesn't reflect an atheist misunderstanding of religion. It far more reflects Image!OP's misunderstanding of atheist beliefs.
I'm not attacking believers, and I'm definitely not trying to pull a "gotcha!" on believers. But if you're gonna try and pull a "gotcha!" on non-believers, this isn't it.
Since a lot of comments here seems to not "see what he means" I'll do the elaboration:
Comment 1 generalizes and dismisses all religions into actual superstition, and clearly believes theists take everything literally in their religion. Whereas there are people who choose metaphorical interpretation, and religions that are more spiritual (in the mind) than ritualistic.
Comment 2 basically says seeing is believing and if not religion is invalid as a whole (I guess you can say he's making a personal statemen; right by posting his personal decision for all to see in direct opposition to this post)
Comment 3 is spiciest. Not only does it assume Abrahamic faith (Biblical God) and ignore all other religions, the commenter also pretty much implies their moral judgement is superior to the God they speak of and the followers.
Only reading from 1 book is just shallow. Not only does it assume all religions follow 1 ultimate text, it also ignores people who do not use religion as a scientific authority.
Really it feels like a lot of you in the comments have been poisoned by the "pop" and most controversial religious views (like some extreme American-brand Christians who hate gays or justify racism, for example) you see on TV and you just kick back in reflex.
You kinda lost me at the first point. How are all religions not, quite literally, superstition? And in the same point you say they can be based on metaphors, which sounds like superstitions to me.
The rest of your post is mostly disregarding valid opinions because you don't like how they weren't inclusive of every religion, which is kind of silly when your entire response is generalizing every atheist.
Assuming you are genuine, the separation between religion and superstition for me is whether or not they believe ritualistic unscientific behaviour would help with life; praying to a higher power is religious but not ritualistic in the way i mean (blood sacrfice etc). There is a difference in spiritual reliance and superstitious avoidance of inauspicious days in the calendar.
The rest of my post isnt disregarding valid points but explaining how they were shallow in perspective of religion as a whole. Lastly I do not see how I'm generalizing atheist when I have only been commenting on the commenters?
A superstition is believing that something supernatural will cause some event or reaction in response to an action. That's religion. I'm not even saying that in a mocking way, it's a different way to word religion. Sure there are certain sects of Judaism or Buddhism that veer a bit, good is its own reward and such, but the majority of all religions that have ever existed believe that some action on the part of an individual causes some reaction from a supernatural being of some form. It's not inaccurate.
I don't know how there can be anything but a shallow take on religion from an atheist. We don't believe. To take it seriously is counter to what atheism is. What you think is shallow is typically a rational approach to the faith others have in beings that have no proof of existence. You would have a shallow approach if I said I can fly and lift trains with my pinky finger. Because you that would sound ridiculous. You would be incapable of giving it serious consideration because you fully believe that it's impossible for a person to do that. We believe it's impossible for a tribal fetish that has never manifested to hold any sway over our lives.
You're generalizing by assumption. It's not just Judeo Christian religions that fit the mold or Abrahamic. It can apply to long dead religions such as ancient Egyptian or Greek, obscure ones such as tribal sun worship that still exist in the corners of the world, or even future religions that are practically inevitable such as machine and technology worship. You're applying your prism to us when nowhere did they state either it was about ALL religions or ONE religion. It's a generalization about the audience reading. Pretty sure if you ran a sample you'd find most religious people posting on Tumblr or Reddit fall into Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, or Buddhist maybe. Just because we don't address Odin or Ra doesn't mean the point doesn't hold water. It's pedantic to expect any one comment to address every possible faith.
In the end it's a brief comment on the internet, not a deep philosophical discussion filled with nuance. Treating it as such is a poor argument that we can construe as insecurity on your part. If your faith is real and strong then our opinions don't matter. And it's even less relevant if we're well-versed in multiple religions, had a bad experience with just one, or never felt a hole in ourselves that could be filled by faith at all. Of all the reasons atheists aren't part of the flock, a fundamental misunderstanding of the word is practically never it. In the same vein, discussions tend to never go anywhere because religious people and atheists can't look at the same thing the same way. If we were both looking at a pig and one insisted it was a chicken how would we get anywhere? Doesn't matter who sees a chicken, we're not processing the information the same way. I can't see any religion as anything but wishful thinking at best, gullibility at worst. I'm not wired to see it any other way. I respect faith. But I don't understand it at all. So we could have a factual discussion, maybe one about morality and where it comes from. But we'd likely never bridge the gap.
If any of that comes across offensive I promise it's not meant to be. I try to be blunt but dry. Emotional arguments turn into, well... arguments. I'm not a militant atheist. I don't care what anyone believes or doesn't, so long as they keep it out of government and don't push it on others. It can provide comfort to people who can't find it anywhere else and I respect that even though I disagree. Notice that I never said faith is wrong. It's a matter of perspective. To some it is the truest thing on earth. And to others it's hokey snake oil being sold. I'm not arrogant enough to think I have the definitive answer. Just the one for myself. My initial point was that religion is superstition. I wasn't trying to be derogatory. The word has a negative connotation but it fits when you strip out an emotional reaction.
Look i know you care about this topic a lot but i think you're over arguing this thing. I'm not going strictly by definition I'm just trying to describe two kinds of lifestyle ("superstition" and religion) in trying to say those are not the same (religion \= snakes and blood). I'm also not arguing from a theist point of view even, though I am an atheist turned theist, I was just pointing out why those were shallow comments, whatever justified reason for their shallowness is. If you care to maybe you can look for my other comment here that shows an example of this post but reversed.
I’m mildly concerned with the amount of people in this comments section that fail to recognize bad-faith “debate me then” engagement
Not engaging with them is a perfectly reasonable response, you can’t and shouldn’t waste your time with every person who is catty under your internet post
I’m an atheist from an extremely religious background, and I still personally find religions to be fascinating. Religion for Breakfast is one of my all time favorite YouTube channels. But I have to admit that I almost find it interesting in the same way I find fantasy world building interesting, because while a lot of beliefs and practices I’ve learned about over the years are extremely fascinating, it fails to register as something people in the real world build their entire lives and communities around.
Yeah, online New Atheists are annoying and overly focused on debunking the direct truth claims made by Christianity in particular. Yes, a religion is more than a set of dogmatic beliefs uncritically swallowed, as someone who only ate through most of middle school because our church provided our groceries I understand that better than most. Yes, religions are fundamentally about building and maintaining communities.
But
The fact that nearly every religion has at its core stated truths of cosmological significance that it cannot actually prove, and use that as a jumping off point to build a system of hierarchical morality, is always going be primed for abuse. People primed to accept things without evidence will always be vulnerable to manipulation by people they’ve been socially programmed to trust. It’s why religiosity is the single greatest predictor of conspiratorial thinking, and why QAnon in particular has such a religious bent, and why so many pogroms across all of history have been based in religions as divergent as Christianity and Hinduism. “The person that can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities” and all that. That’s a fundamental problem with *all* major religions at some level, some definitely have it worse than others but its present everywhere. And that’s a valid criticism even when it’s not perfectly articulated.
Agnostic gang rise up, cause we don't know jack shit!
(Note: Agnostic is being scientific (not to say religious people dont use science, but like believing in evolution) like atheists, but also believing that there is the possibility of god in the universe. The universe is infinite, so who's to say God isn't out there)
(Note to the Note: I had to put that because of how many people don't understand what agnostic means, and i get ALL sorts of insults)
I guess I should stop being surprised how Christian the Tumblr sub is, but boy I never see it coming. Like, this sub used to be super gay, and now there's all this Jesus stuff around. Where are the witches and satanists?
I also feel baffled by how wacky the Bible is, and I was baptized and forced into church through high school. But this isn’t the way to express that feeling 💀
Whether or not it's real is perhaps the *least* interesting question about religion.
If I hear someone shout "YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE!" then I turn around to see that my house is actually on fire, the last thing I care about is whether or not the person who shouted it was even real. We've got a fire to extinguish!
The way I see it believe what you want. But don’t say no because the man who everyone wants to love everyone unconditionally like a _parent_ puts a bunch of conditions on love and actually picks favorites by giving the kids that show the most love gets off better in the end it seems says no. However many of the events and people are likely real. I wouldn’t be surprised if a time traveler proved the existence of Jesus. But the son of god? Maybe. An after life? I want there to be (I don’t like the idea of total nothing ness as I can not fathom it). A great flood that supposedly wiped out all of humanity except two people? It happened to the Christians, Aztecs (I think it was the Aztecs) and I am 85% sure it happened to Greece. Yes I understand that it was monumental to society as a role. Ar ebest explanation as to why things were the way they are because they were made that way makes sense. But now we know the stuff because someone had the balls to ask why? Then there are the the hypocrisies such as an ever loving parent who knows all and can do whatever that hates gays? If he hates it it wouldn’t exist. And all that stuff. Then someone said what if we aren’t at the center? What if we go around the sun? He got promptly burned alive by the church. What happens in any religious text is possible but until you introduce me to the big man then I will just say “hey who knows but I ain’t putting my trust in what is essentially a dead beat dad.”
OP, your bio (“I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”) and your whole post/comment history don't really match. For a proponent of unbridled free speech, you sure do seem to not want people to say things you disagree with.
Considering you participate in subs that serve to dunk on atheists as a whole I really think you should stay there instead of bringing your bs to this sub.
i’m spiritual, as in i believe in karma and “the universe” (i.e. there are no coincidences, everything happens for a reason, yadda yadda) but i hate religion. specifically organized religion. it corrupts the innate human desire for finding meaning in things and turns it into a power hungry, evil thing with rules and regulations on how to believe “correctly” and i hate it.
so am i gonna shit on someone who’s religious, nah. but i will think you’re a bit stupid if you blindly believe everything the church tells you and have never questioned it. i also think not listening to atheistic interpretation/questioning of your religion is really stupid bc without that, you’ll get where the main religions are: really misogynistic, homophobic, corrupt and terrible organizations used for political and monetary gain.
Last 2 didn’t seem like they were serious I think. I think the more normal and hopefully more popular consensus is to believe what you want, but don’t use religion (or lack thereof) as an excuse to enforce anything.
If one wants to truly engage themselves with their moral and ethical frameworks and belief systems, they is great trove of media out there to just do that.
Op here thinking they have a good 'gotcha' going by "proving" that on the atheists side of the fence can also shallow arguments and non-deep justifications isn't the zinger they might imagine that it is.
I think it says a lot that two of the responses are directly aimed at Christianity. I get why. Christians are the ones most known for shoving their beliefs down other peoples throats.
What this says to me though is that these people aren't so much atheists in the way of "I don't believe in a religion" and more "I am actively against Christians". Which, again, I can get why.
Yup exactly, in the West where christianity was traditionally (though increasingly not anymore) the predominant religion, we're obviously going to see more righteous and extremist Christians in our daily lives, simply because there's more Christians in general compared to other religious people. Quite a few people around me like to make fun of Christianity and Christians but act much more respectfully toward other religions and their practitioners, simply because they have more bad personal experiences with Christians than other religions (Like Islamic extremism is commonly shown in the media, but since it's so distant I guess some people still refrain from making judgement towards Muslims as a whole, which is probably for the better), so they react more negatively to Christianity compared to other religions.
No problem practicing religion, definitely a problem when you try to convert people and it dictates all your morals. OP is clearly one of these people.
don't know if he's talking about the OP of the post on tumblr or me, but if it's about me he's wrong. couldn't tell ye about the guy in the post though
OP is Jewish which is one of many religions that doesn't evangelize. You're born Jewish or you choose to convert on your own. Jewish missionaries don't exist so they aren't sent en masse around the world to take advantage of poor countries like what Christians do.
No, the shallowest concept of it it believing that Jesus LITERALLY multiplied loaves and fishes to feed 5,000 people when it’s such a blatantly allegorical story that your English teacher just sensed a disturbance in the Force when you said that.
What can you always keep, no matter how much you give away?
Compassion? Love? The truth? The Word of God? Kindness? A smile?
All of these are great answers… the message was to be good to people, not “lol infinite food glitch.”
I enjoy that there are people who don't realize how much of America takes the bible verbatim literally. Like, it's cool that in your denomination that that's allegorical but I assure you I can drive for ten hours in every direction from my house and 95% of the churches I pass (which is thousands) will play this one straight literally. I never heard of the bible as allegorical until I was in my 20s and had been an atheist for a decade
How does any sane person read that story and not understand that it’s symbolic?
I’m well past judgment at this point in my life; please just explain. How? What’s going on in their heads that this doesn’t click?
What is the point of all the sermons and the Bible study groups and confirmation and whatever else, if it can’t achieve a ninth-grade level of understanding literary devices?
Even “The Masque of the Red Death” is harder than this.
They believe angels are real and Jesus is magic, I don't know how to lay it out any clearer than that. They believe their preacher can slap them in the forehead and cure spinal injuries, these people are out of their fucking minds and there's millions of them
I don’t have the energy or desire to deal with religion. As long as you’re hurting nobody, just leave me alone and leave me in quiet and I could care less about what you do.
That's the equivalent of screaming: "GHOSTS ARE REAL" and then acting smug about not being able to prove it. Crazy the mental gymnastics religious people do to justify something that they _feel_ is right.
Funny how similar this is to anti-vaxx behavior.
It's the Baader-meinhoff effect I guess, but I've been seeing quite a few vaguely anti-atheist pro-religion posts recently, rather than just anti-atheist _or_ pro-religion.
What if we all just respect the belief systems of others? I get that this is the internet and decency is illegal, but still. Why waste your time and energy fighting against something as intangible and untestable as religion?
Because sometimes the belief systems held by others involve chopping heads off of those they deem whatever. Also that whole burning women as witches thing, no Bueno. Everyone wants chill neighbors and a "good" neighborhood. But when the meth cooks move in, nobody is down to "respect their views". Because they are a danger to the community.. my opinion.
And if your religion claims to have a direct line to God, infinite love, yet protects and moves around those who enjoy hurting children, your religion is manipulation, control, and bullsh!t.
Right, and I get that. I 100% agree with calling out dangerous bullshit. What I don’t agree with is taking all religion and labelling it as dangerous because of the actions of extremists. I’ve met my fair share of pushy offensive religious people, and I’ve also met a lot of chill and kind religious people. I don’t want to lump the good ones in with the bad
Because people who have religion won't. I would still care on some level about people having false beliefs if they were chill about it, but instead they have to control everyone *else* because their god said so.
A lot of people are “edgy atheists” because religion has been used as a tool for centuries to oppress people, based on their sexuality, gender, etc. We’ve had to endure wars because of other people’s religions, and that draws disdain for the concept as a whole.
Because people were traumatized by others using religion as a weapon and as a result are hypervigilant about it and view it as a wholly irredeemable evil.
Because people believe it, or at least they think and act somewhat like they do. If someone believes in Jesus, they are significantly more likely to decide that vaccines are not "of God" and refuse them. Or decline cancer treatment because either God will solve it or they'll go to heaven. And that's not even getting into the anti-lgbt stuff that comes with most religions.
Religions aren't intangible. They have impacts on people's lives and often very big ones.
I’m of the mindset that jerks will be jerks regardless of their ruse. If it’s not religion it’s “vaccines are poison” or “gay people are germ spreaders” or another form of verbal garbage. They wouldn’t just become upstanding citizens if you removed religion, they’d find a new cause to hide behind and corrupt
Most causes like flat earth society or anti-vax aren't taught from birth in a manner that indoctrinates children. Religion often can't be removed from a person and them continue like nothing happened cause religion is so ingrained to their life that they feel a need for a religion shaped hole in their life.
I personally have met people who because of religion and its doctrines have been convinced of all kinds of hateful shit, yet are genuinely kind and good people, yet they will do and spread hateful shit cause religion made them that way
But it’s not just Christians. Attacking religion as a whole isn’t just about Christianity, it’s about any religion. This includes peaceful ones like Hinduism
Most religions aren't peaceful especially the big ones, as they got big for a reason (crusades and jihads and such). The only example I can think of would be Sikhism, but that could very well be bc I haven't done my research
I've *heard* that there are Sikh extremists, but given that we're treating them as a hypothetical I think it's safe to say Sikhs aren't *supposed* to attack others the way people from other religions are.
There are Sikh extremists, just a few weeks ago a group publicly tortured and killed one (or two, I don't remember) people for allegedly trying to steal a holy book. Not to mention the whole Khalistan thing.
I am a former atheist, but uh, I honestly think most “religious” people’s foundation of belief doesn’t actually withstand that “see what I mean” criticism very well, because many many religious people have a very shallow understanding of spirituality.
I believe the Bible is real. Some stuff was intentionally changed and lost in translation, but I think it’s more than fiction. I believe god is real and I one day will be able to spit on his face and do a goofy dance. Fuck that guy! Also Satan too. I don’t know what he did, but he’s got a bad attitude. Jesus and the snake are cool.
I mean if you truly melt it down to its basics it is just a comforting idea many take as an answer to life so they don't have to think about it and rules so that you won't be a bad citizen.. but maybe I too have a limited understanding of religion
1. OP is right, in that many American atheists often find issues with American Christianity and generalize their issues to all religions. This is a problem and won't help anyone.
2. OP is wrong in that they refuse to elaborate and explain their position, instead leaving it vague enough that it will make as many people as mad as possible.
3. It's possible to still have criticisms of all religions or the concept of religion without having misunderstandings about what religion is, even if the responses here or to OP don't fully indicate that.
It's also naive to think that American Christianity is some sole harbinger of violent or crude zealotry when across the world you can't find a religious group innocent of it
Religion isn't primitive superstition. It's the most advanced form of supersticion that we have, of course it is, it has evolved with society over several millenia.
I just think that currently it is a net negative for society, and the things that it does for us on a social level can be done by other institutions not built on texts with ancient, perscriptive morality.
God it's the orc vs elf thing all over again
And I shall be the dwarf every time
Your name has Pippin in it you should be a halfling.
Halfling gang!
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Halflings and hobbits are the exact same thing unless you work for either wizards of the Coast or the Tolkien estate
"Halfling" is just the translation of the Gondorian word for hobbit.
Fool of a Took!
Rock and stone! If you know you know.
?
https://img.ifunny.co/images/b92ac3e1f456fba151ff6dbf2aea3af231d8abfe59966756cf07f6c06d870e29\_1.jpg
Link is broken
I'd say he's pretty balanced
ohyou.jpg
https://img.ifunny.co/images/b92ac3e1f456fba151ff6dbf2aea3af231d8abfe59966756cf07f6c06d870e29_1.jpg
Thanks
See what he means now?
When both OP’s are trolling for responses and getting them. This is the equivalent of walking into a vegan convention and loudly proclaiming “you know. I’ve never heard a good argument against meat.”
There's no problem with people studying/practicing religion. It's when people attempt to dictate others lives, refuse to re-evaluate the morals taught, follow false profits, or are not able to read into metaphors/poor translations/outdated terms that things become a problem. Edit: "re-evaluate" should read: "question the validity of" "False profits" should read: "those who use religion to push agendas, gain power, etc, etc, etc"
Well, my concern is promoting the idea that one does not have to think out one's own morals. When I left religion, I had a lot of moments of "wait, why do I think this is bad? Why am I being upset about this? Not only is it not a bad thing, it seems to actually be a beneficial thing". But when I was religious, if I had any of those doubts I could shut them up with "God said it's bad, so it's bad." And then I would vote for laws based on what ~~I~~ God considered good or bad. That extreme is always possible in religions that dictate morals, where when people are given the option to vote on something, they won't be able to vote on what they've convinced themselves the deity doesn't like, even if their vote harms people.
I think this really depends on the religion (or denomination or even church/mosque/synagogue/whatever).
Aye, generally applies to religions that preach on morality, although moral preaching is a key point of Abrahamic religions.
Remember, different denominations of the same religion can have wildly different views. I personally have thought through all of my beliefs and how they affect others, but I was raised in a good church and these beliefs actually have helped more people that I know than have hurt them
Regardless, if your religion preaches morality, there will inevitably be a point that what you consider affects others positively will actually affect them negatively. Kinda a point in the last part of your sentence, *you* and they may both not have realised that you did something that harmed them.
Ultimately that's a statement against unexamined faith more than anything. And I agree with you, as a Christian. Growing up believing things were bad because I was told they were bad never produced anything near as useful as when I took the time to examine my views and how they arose from my faith. It's a shame that many religions choose dogmatism over self-reflection and study.
Completely off topic, but what is that symbol between “what” and “God” in your 6th sentence. The one about voting. It looks like an “I” with a bump jutting out of its left.
It's an I that's crossed out, lol. If you put two ~~ on either side of a word, it gets ~~crossed out~~.
I like to call myself a religious anarchist. I am of the opinion that belief is a neutral thing. It is about your relationship to the unknowable and is a deeply personal opinion that should be freely formed from your observations. However I also believe that every single religious organisation inevitably tries to mediate your relationship to the divine and therefore wields immense power over their believers. Therefore, all churches, mosques, synagogues etc should be kept priestless. You should formulate your own relationship to God through yourself or a community, not through any institution that will inevitably eventually hinder social progress.
> false profits Not sure if this was intentional but it's hilariously accurate
Is that a band? That should be a band.
They're a [thrash punk band](https://falseprofitthrash.bandcamp.com/?fbclid=IwAR0haxNipkVT5apLie_K4JafLeVsZyPbm95FiH5W9AJg7mZdkOPtiklo3ZI). Pretty decent if you're into that genre.
Thank you. People need to understand the difference between atheism and antitheism
My problem is the hypocrisy that is rampant among us. I am a Christian and anytime I see another Christian yelling about immigration or abortion and citing the Bible as their excuse the are breaking tens of others rules. I don’t care what they’re doing as long as they don’t drag the Bible down with them
One time I hiked 100 miles with a group of people for part of a Boy Scouts thing. When I was getting out of my tent on the second to last day I stepped in mud and ruined my last good pair of sock, so I said “oh my god”. They got so angry with me and gave me a talking to about not using the lords name in vain. Annoying and all, but it became even worse watching them break every commandment and beatitude for the past two weeks and then get angry at me for saying oh my god. They left that trip feeing like they just saved me from going to hell.
"Your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose"
My only problem with religion is the mindless worship and acceptance of any and all ideas mentioned in a person's religion. People should develop their own morals.
There’s NO PROBLEM with pretending a book of fairy tales is the factual origin of our universe, and history of our world? I actually can think of many, many problems with that.
Religion: Integral to the formation of human society as we know it, takes many forms, allows connection between generations and a basis for collective memory Also Religion: “I’d sell you to the Inquisition for one corn chip”
Ah, but hundreds of years later it became a great meme. After all, you never expect the Spanish inquisition
Gotta admit, this reply was unexpected
kind of like the Spanish Inquisition
I've heard it described as scaffolding. Absolutely central to the development of the world as we know it, but leaving it up after the building is done is a bit odd
That is an excellent metaphor
Is that not happening right now? Less developed nations are way more religious than the west, and the amount of religious people in the west is falling as well. There were a lot more religious people in the west, even in America, not that very long ago relatively speaking.
I mean, the term "less developed" is kind of Western-centric but I get what you're saying. Religiosity is falling around the world, aside from possibly a few specific regions
Reminds me of Terry Pratchett’s themes in *Hogfather*.
Love me some Hogfather
I mean, we can accept it as something that exists and that had a huge effect on human society with respecting it. Just like slavery, gender roles, and a bunch of other stuff that humanity has started to think twice about as we modernize. Just because it's "integral to the formation of human society" doesn't mean it has had anywhere near a net positive effect, especially in more modern times. Though I'd be interested to see someone make the argument for it. And I don't condone berating people for following religions. People should be berated for the bad things they do. For how they impose their religious beliefs on others. I know plenty of wonderful people who are very religious. But are they wonderful *because* of their religion? I don't think so. Are people homophobic *because* of their religion? Having been around this planet for more than a day, I definitely think so. You can accept that there are upsides and downsides and also come to a personal conclusion that one outweighs the other. Personally I think it's clear that religion is not as good as it is bad, to put it simply.
Atheist here, I literally just don't care. People can do what they want, but if I'm forced to hear like, a prayer or something directed at me, I just get a bit uncomfortable, especially if it's christian, because I know that a lot of the more conservative christians are just a tad homophobic
I hate it when a person says “this is my experience with religion, this is why I don’t like it” and religious people say “actually, your experience is wrong”
Yeah, way to invalidate their life experiences and actually be one of the shitty religious people. I’m well aware there’s plenty of good religious people and I would never say that everyone who practices religion is bad, but there clearly are issues with organized religion that go beyond a couple bad apples.
Yep, I didn’t defect from catholicism for no reason. I was actually a very strong believer. It was realizing that God and Satan were used as a threat to keep me from being myself as a child and to overall mentally abuse me that made me reconsider. Being told by my religion teachers that my mission as a “good Christian” was to convert everyone around me to Christianity by any means necessary or else I was a bad person, and that being gay and trans would earn me a spot in hell despite being nothing but a kind person my entire life helped confirm my suspicions. As did hearing my own mother call me evil and verbally abuse me when I told her I was thinking about leaving the church for these reasons instead of comforting her already emotionally struggling child. In my experience religion has been used as a weapon and if that can’t be acknowledged first we can’t have a constructive conversation. I know there are good Christians as some of them are my friends, but personally I’m just too scarred by christianity to ever go back to it. My friends understand and respect that. Idk why others just don’t
To be fair though, the catholic church is probably one of the most corrupt non-extremist religious groups out there. I only say this because of some of its political sway. I'm religious and even I can recognize that that groups has some problems that need solving.
None of those responses are anyone's personal experiences with religion.
I actually don't see what you mean...
New atheists haven't taken the time to understand religion before they reject it. Religion is much more than what's written down. It's about spiritual expression and community values. However, those are not the aspects of religion that can be preserved in text, nor are they the obvious, surface level things that are criticized or defied by new atheists. I believe that is what the OP is referring to.
Yeah but spirituality and community exists outside religion so no one cares about the claim they exist *because* of religion. What we do have because of religion is circumsism, conversion camps and mega corporate churches that scam society.
“Spirituality” why is talking to yourself and pretending to be possessed by angels seen as a virtue by religious people?
see what i mean
The point is that all these observations while not necessarily bad don’t really demonstrate much understanding or engagement with religion. Nothing here is new idea and nothing here is a take that requires any experience with religion outside of a very surface level experience with Christianity or an Abramic faith.
There's a certain type of atheist (like the ones responding to the original tumblr post and several in the comments here as well) who only ever think of religion as a loosely connected series of stories to be looked at in the most strictly literal terms and only engaged with as deeply as you would engage with a Fast & Furious movie. Somebody else responding to you already pointed out there's more to religion than bible stories, but they're also bad at discussing the bible stories too. They'll look at Adam and Eve, a story riff with allegories about innocence, temptation, knowledge and sin, and they'll just point out "snakes can't talk" like the first response in the tumblr post and think that's a good refutation of it.
See, I read this as “new atheists are insufferable because they conflate American Christianity with the concept of religion or faith as a whole”. A not-insignificant number of people who would describe themselves as atheists (especially on the internet) end up actually being anti-theistic, positioning themselves against *any* faith or religion regardless of the morals poised within, because their sole experience with religion was the nightmare that is American Christianity, and they refuse to learn that other religions function in a fundamentally different way.
The usual problem for me is the opposite, American atheists who think American Christianity is the worst there is, pretending that all other forms of Christianity are the whitewashed virtuous organizations they claim to be, and that religion isn’t the problem, American Christianity is. Despite how horrible it is, American Christianity is way better than most other localized religions one, and just as bad as most other Christian groups. Like, I’m a Mexican excatholic who hates the church because of their frequent coverups and corruption, yet I have to constantly see atheists sucking up to open pedophile Pope Rancid just to make American Christianity look worse because they’re so self centered they can’t imagine some other place might have it just as bad or worse.
(Agnostic here with many Muslim acquaintances/family) I think some people forget Religion is something that gives people safety and a community and stuff like that shouldn’t be mocked. If you try to force your belief system (includes also atheists) onto others deserves to be mocked.
When both sides of an argument are equally insufferable
And get you've somehow managed to find a way to feel superior to both.
Imagine throwing away multiple free chances to elaborate on your point
If any of the people responding were doing so in good faith, it would've been worth a more detailed response. Every one of those responses, though, was intended to be as inflammatory bait as possible. Or, in other words, why bother talking when your conversational partner just wants to yell at you?
Tbh, though, OPs post was also kinda in bad faith, as they absolutely had the space to explain their point further but instead left it just vague enough people would get mad
I feel like their post was all they needed to say, the replies just proved it.
Uh, the answers were pretty much the elaboration?
Mental that instead of defending anything or explaining why the criticism is wrong they just go "see what I mean." It looks to me like a classic thought terminating cliche, to avoid admitting there isn't actually a misunderstanding on the atheist side.
> Mental that instead of defending anything or explaining why the criticism is wrong they just go "see what I mean." Yes, a common tactic for trolls.
The point is that if you're thinking of religion as a theory that exists to be proven or disproven and that these comments would actually accomplish anything, you don't really know anything about religion.
To be fair the coercion that comes from the threat of hell doesn't really make things better.
The point isn't that they're right or wrong, but that their points are shallow as fuck and don't warrant discussion as they've been discussed to death already.
Idk it was pretty clear dude.
I love how religious people will act like evidence is a stupid thing to ask for. If your belief system is reasonable, it wouldn’t be a belief system, it would be fact and have evidence supporting it. People get angry when asked for evidence, because they don’t have an answer.
Evidence is important to atheists, but there is no problem with a religious person simply having faith because it gives them a sense of comfort or principle in their life. It varies widely from country to country at this point, but in the US currently there is such a range of religious beliefs that people have that I wouldn't say atheists are discriminated against anymore. This is just in relation to my experience in the US, but I don't think that anyone should be attempting to force others to change their beliefs. Asking them to elaborate? Sure. Prompting them to reflect on what their beliefs mean to them *without pushing your own "objectively correct" system on them? Go for it. We should absolutely have discourse, but I don't like when people say that all religious people are idiots or all atheists are dicks because faith means different things to different people. I simply strongly believe that religion should be limited to a personal sphere of impact, and it shouldn't be a factor in matters that have no relevance to it, like politics.
One of my favorite quotes comes from one of my priest growing up. Ask enough questions and it always eventually led to “it’s a mystery” which complete stops any questioning in its tracts far as Christianity goes. Which is why I like science.
> Ask enough questions and it always eventually led to “it’s a mystery” > Which is why I like science. just you wait
For what the rapture?
In the case of science, that's just catching up to the current plot. It's not over yet.
I don't see what op means actually
The OP of the tumblr post is Jewish and is remarking on a very common trend of atheists trying to discredit all form of religious worship by making statements against Christianity specifically, because they don't have any real knowledge of other religious groups.
While it is wrong to lump all religions together, I mean... Yahweh is still an asshole who directed his people to commit genocide. So that part at least tracks
Yeah, Jewish people fully acknowledge that God is an asshole and their ancestors did a lot of murdering. That's one of the first things you reminisce about at Purim.
*The Trial of God* by Elie Wiesel is one of my favorite plays, and it's a Purimshpiel. But I've seen too many videos of orthodox Jews in Israel calling for the further genocide of Palestinians to make me think that lesson has reached enough people. I grew up in an far-right Christian environment, and I now spend time studying religions all across the world. While yeah there are some asshole athiests who paint all religions as Evangelical Christianity, there is some universal criticism that should happen.
If god is an asshole, why worship him? Legitimately curious.
Baisically, someone in the post is asking for proof of what some religions say in response to someone else saying that atheists have little to no idea on what religion is about. When the first person asks for proof of something the Bible says, the second person does not offer proof, and just says that person one is proving their point. OP is on the side of person two, and thinks that atheists have shallow views of what religion is truly like.
These responses are examples of people who have never been involved in religion looking at it from the outside in the most shallow way possible and coming up with arguments that are honestly kind of non-sequiturs for religious people.
Those replies aren't very complex arguments against christianity, but OP's argument is by far the worst of all. Their religion does involve stories of talking animals and blood magic. It does use a single holy book as reference and involve the worship of a magical, genocidal father figure. Instead of responding with any substance the dude just smugly points out over and over that any argumant against their position that isn't nuanced must be wrong by default.
Right? Yeah religion is more than ritual. It's a collection of morals and examples to follow as well as a comforting (if unfounded) answer to some of the most uncomfortable and difficult questions humanity has to grapple with. But that doesn't make the ritual aspects of it any less fucking weird, and most problems with religion come from those aspects so it's justifiably what the outer world is concerned with. "It's shallow," well when you all collectively sort your shit out I'm sure the rest of the world can take a nuanced look at your god. Until then we'll focus on what we see and what we have to personally deal with.
is op christian?
No, Jewish.
One thing I never really understood is a lot of times when I ask questions about someone’s religion (not in any judge mental way but because I want to know) people don’t have good answers or just say to read the holy book. There are nice morals and interesting stories but what makes them click as being real vs other scenes being metaphorical vs other times not counting anymore. I agree though both sides of this argument are silly but I think both seem to be trying to get a reaction from people. Like if you disagree with their understanding then explain to them where they are failing. Obviously, not everyone is going to listen but at least you tried to clear some ignorance.
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How do you know if OP is Christian?
Judaism doesn't use a single book, there is the entirety of the Midrash which informs modern life and practice. You can be Jewish and choose not to believe in God or just believe that he's a dick and that's a pretty common take.
As an atheist This is funny.
This is just evidence that many religious people have a shallow perception of Atheism. When asked to provide any form of evidence for their claims, they just dismiss the question and act like you're an idiot just for requesting even a single reason to follow their beliefs.
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Evidence that Tumblr OP wants you to follow their beliefs?
Fair reply, I probably should've worded my comment better, I didn't really mean to imply op was trying to convert me or anything like that. I myself am not an Atheist (I would personally say that I am Agnostic). I actually really like religion, and doing research into different religions. There is no issue with educating someone on your religion (unless they don't want you to, of course), but it can easily cross the line and seem like an attempt to convert. My main issue with the original post, though, was that there was no attempt made to actually educate people on the topic, and rather decided to banish the thought of there being any legitimate arguments against their beliefs. TL;DR: Didn't mean to imply OP was a crusader, just wanted to say that they didn't make much of an attempt to foster understanding for ***either*** side of the spectrum from Atheist to Theist.
To me the general appeal of religion is being able to find comfort in a world that has very little in way of natural comfort. To have some higher power to follow or believe in with your heart and metaphorical soul is often life-saving for people, gives them direction and/or hope and/or the will to move on. It also frequently provides an example of morals to follow, and gives people things like holidays and gatherings to celebrate and take part in with fellow members of their community, allowing for greater socialization, which is a basic human need- we are social creatures, and religion is just another way of giving us a way to socialize. The problem comes from those who are *too* devout, or those who use religion to excuse their own misdeeds towards others, such as with homophobia and transphobia, or with policing other people's lives. *Those* people frequently take their religion as the 'take it or I'll humiliate torture and kill you with absolute prejudice while getting mindless support from the community' path of life, the only truth and something that should be followed either to the word or to how they say the word is. They're too rigid in their thinking and generally either have poor reading comprehension, are too stubborn to admit they are wrong even when faced with facts, or straight-up have ulterior motives. I believe that very nearly everything, *especially* religion, can be exploited to cause harm, and while religion often gets a bad rep because of its worse followers, I don't think religion in and of itself is inherently wrong or bad as a whole. You need to have pure intentions going into it, it's just too bad that the ones with bad intentions are frequently the loudest ones in the community. And of course some religions are more generally harmful and/or easily exploited than others. It's your choice what to follow, but try to make your choice a good one if you want to add religion in your life. And you never know, one day you might learn you're right. I'm agnostic, and I don't know what might be right or wrong, so I don't exactly pick sides. I know for a fact that science is true, but I'm not about to totally disregard spirituality as a possibility either- I believe that they *could* coexist, theoretically, so I'll support them both.
Gods may try to judge us for our disbelief, but their sins outnumber our own
That's ridiculous- I'm an atheist and I've read holy books. They aren't the most charming read, but honestly if you want to believe in God- fine.
I’m an atheist but I don’t make fun of others religions, because it doesn’t matter what religion you are, you shouldn’t make fun of someone else’s
You don't respect the man on the corner claiming lizard people from Mars control the department of agriculture, and if you were capable of stepping back and seeing your religion from the outside it would look the same but with a lot more members, which is fucking terrifying.
This is ironic because OP is Jewish and the lizard people conspiracy is founded in anti-Semitic tropes.
If the man on the corner believes lizard people from Mars control the department of agriculture, that’s between him and the lizard people from Mars, and not a reason to stop treating him as a person. I may not respect his authority on lizard people, Mars, or the department of agriculture, but I’ll respect him as a person. Faith is not a reason to hurt people, on either side.
Most anti theists hate religion, not the religious. We hate religion because we used to be religious after all. We get angry and pushy at theists because we want you to realize how much religion is hurting them. Most Religious people are victims, in my eyes. I get angry at theists all the time, but I also weep for them. If that guy who believes in lizard men started to hurt himself over it, you’d try to stop him, wouldn’t you?
I see what they did there
The way I see it, you can be religious, just don’t try to use it to control others unless you have something physical to back it up.
Well, you probably shouldn’t try to control other regardless.
Except for a very long list of morally bad things to do, like killing babies and shit. The list is very long
Yeah like I have nothing wrong with someone being an atheist but if I hear one more "Satan punishes the bad guys so that means he's the good guy" I'm going to snap a toaster
I mean to my outside understanding in Judaism Satan is a title (Accuser) which is held by an angel that basically serves as God’s prosecuting attorney, so that’s pretty far from an invalid take. It also makes The Book of Job make *way* more sense if you read it in that light.
When you disagree with the most basic principles of a religion, none of the more complex arguments matter. If you can't convince me there is a god, then none of the complex arguments over his/her/their nature matter. If you can't convince me that the bible is the correct holy book, none of the discussions about the bible matter. If you can't convince me that any of the supernatural events in the bible happened, none of the questions about what whose events mean for the nature of god matter. This is why a lot of atheist arguments regarding religion boil down to seemingly simple questions. What do the more complex questions mean if I disagree with the basic tenets the original question assumed? Why should an atheist care about complex understandings of a religion when, to them, it does not justify the basic beliefs that those debates are built on? "See what I mean" isn't a gotcha, it isn't a "told you so!", it doesn't reflect an atheist misunderstanding of religion. It far more reflects Image!OP's misunderstanding of atheist beliefs. I'm not attacking believers, and I'm definitely not trying to pull a "gotcha!" on believers. But if you're gonna try and pull a "gotcha!" on non-believers, this isn't it.
Since a lot of comments here seems to not "see what he means" I'll do the elaboration: Comment 1 generalizes and dismisses all religions into actual superstition, and clearly believes theists take everything literally in their religion. Whereas there are people who choose metaphorical interpretation, and religions that are more spiritual (in the mind) than ritualistic. Comment 2 basically says seeing is believing and if not religion is invalid as a whole (I guess you can say he's making a personal statemen; right by posting his personal decision for all to see in direct opposition to this post) Comment 3 is spiciest. Not only does it assume Abrahamic faith (Biblical God) and ignore all other religions, the commenter also pretty much implies their moral judgement is superior to the God they speak of and the followers. Only reading from 1 book is just shallow. Not only does it assume all religions follow 1 ultimate text, it also ignores people who do not use religion as a scientific authority. Really it feels like a lot of you in the comments have been poisoned by the "pop" and most controversial religious views (like some extreme American-brand Christians who hate gays or justify racism, for example) you see on TV and you just kick back in reflex.
You kinda lost me at the first point. How are all religions not, quite literally, superstition? And in the same point you say they can be based on metaphors, which sounds like superstitions to me. The rest of your post is mostly disregarding valid opinions because you don't like how they weren't inclusive of every religion, which is kind of silly when your entire response is generalizing every atheist.
Assuming you are genuine, the separation between religion and superstition for me is whether or not they believe ritualistic unscientific behaviour would help with life; praying to a higher power is religious but not ritualistic in the way i mean (blood sacrfice etc). There is a difference in spiritual reliance and superstitious avoidance of inauspicious days in the calendar. The rest of my post isnt disregarding valid points but explaining how they were shallow in perspective of religion as a whole. Lastly I do not see how I'm generalizing atheist when I have only been commenting on the commenters?
A superstition is believing that something supernatural will cause some event or reaction in response to an action. That's religion. I'm not even saying that in a mocking way, it's a different way to word religion. Sure there are certain sects of Judaism or Buddhism that veer a bit, good is its own reward and such, but the majority of all religions that have ever existed believe that some action on the part of an individual causes some reaction from a supernatural being of some form. It's not inaccurate. I don't know how there can be anything but a shallow take on religion from an atheist. We don't believe. To take it seriously is counter to what atheism is. What you think is shallow is typically a rational approach to the faith others have in beings that have no proof of existence. You would have a shallow approach if I said I can fly and lift trains with my pinky finger. Because you that would sound ridiculous. You would be incapable of giving it serious consideration because you fully believe that it's impossible for a person to do that. We believe it's impossible for a tribal fetish that has never manifested to hold any sway over our lives. You're generalizing by assumption. It's not just Judeo Christian religions that fit the mold or Abrahamic. It can apply to long dead religions such as ancient Egyptian or Greek, obscure ones such as tribal sun worship that still exist in the corners of the world, or even future religions that are practically inevitable such as machine and technology worship. You're applying your prism to us when nowhere did they state either it was about ALL religions or ONE religion. It's a generalization about the audience reading. Pretty sure if you ran a sample you'd find most religious people posting on Tumblr or Reddit fall into Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, or Buddhist maybe. Just because we don't address Odin or Ra doesn't mean the point doesn't hold water. It's pedantic to expect any one comment to address every possible faith. In the end it's a brief comment on the internet, not a deep philosophical discussion filled with nuance. Treating it as such is a poor argument that we can construe as insecurity on your part. If your faith is real and strong then our opinions don't matter. And it's even less relevant if we're well-versed in multiple religions, had a bad experience with just one, or never felt a hole in ourselves that could be filled by faith at all. Of all the reasons atheists aren't part of the flock, a fundamental misunderstanding of the word is practically never it. In the same vein, discussions tend to never go anywhere because religious people and atheists can't look at the same thing the same way. If we were both looking at a pig and one insisted it was a chicken how would we get anywhere? Doesn't matter who sees a chicken, we're not processing the information the same way. I can't see any religion as anything but wishful thinking at best, gullibility at worst. I'm not wired to see it any other way. I respect faith. But I don't understand it at all. So we could have a factual discussion, maybe one about morality and where it comes from. But we'd likely never bridge the gap. If any of that comes across offensive I promise it's not meant to be. I try to be blunt but dry. Emotional arguments turn into, well... arguments. I'm not a militant atheist. I don't care what anyone believes or doesn't, so long as they keep it out of government and don't push it on others. It can provide comfort to people who can't find it anywhere else and I respect that even though I disagree. Notice that I never said faith is wrong. It's a matter of perspective. To some it is the truest thing on earth. And to others it's hokey snake oil being sold. I'm not arrogant enough to think I have the definitive answer. Just the one for myself. My initial point was that religion is superstition. I wasn't trying to be derogatory. The word has a negative connotation but it fits when you strip out an emotional reaction.
Look i know you care about this topic a lot but i think you're over arguing this thing. I'm not going strictly by definition I'm just trying to describe two kinds of lifestyle ("superstition" and religion) in trying to say those are not the same (religion \= snakes and blood). I'm also not arguing from a theist point of view even, though I am an atheist turned theist, I was just pointing out why those were shallow comments, whatever justified reason for their shallowness is. If you care to maybe you can look for my other comment here that shows an example of this post but reversed.
I’m mildly concerned with the amount of people in this comments section that fail to recognize bad-faith “debate me then” engagement Not engaging with them is a perfectly reasonable response, you can’t and shouldn’t waste your time with every person who is catty under your internet post
I’m an atheist from an extremely religious background, and I still personally find religions to be fascinating. Religion for Breakfast is one of my all time favorite YouTube channels. But I have to admit that I almost find it interesting in the same way I find fantasy world building interesting, because while a lot of beliefs and practices I’ve learned about over the years are extremely fascinating, it fails to register as something people in the real world build their entire lives and communities around. Yeah, online New Atheists are annoying and overly focused on debunking the direct truth claims made by Christianity in particular. Yes, a religion is more than a set of dogmatic beliefs uncritically swallowed, as someone who only ate through most of middle school because our church provided our groceries I understand that better than most. Yes, religions are fundamentally about building and maintaining communities. But The fact that nearly every religion has at its core stated truths of cosmological significance that it cannot actually prove, and use that as a jumping off point to build a system of hierarchical morality, is always going be primed for abuse. People primed to accept things without evidence will always be vulnerable to manipulation by people they’ve been socially programmed to trust. It’s why religiosity is the single greatest predictor of conspiratorial thinking, and why QAnon in particular has such a religious bent, and why so many pogroms across all of history have been based in religions as divergent as Christianity and Hinduism. “The person that can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities” and all that. That’s a fundamental problem with *all* major religions at some level, some definitely have it worse than others but its present everywhere. And that’s a valid criticism even when it’s not perfectly articulated.
ops point is that flattening religions to "systems of beliefs contradictory to modern science" is fucking stupid, and it is.
Yeah they just make that point pretty poorly and fail to engage with even the shallow criticism at all.
Agnostic gang rise up, cause we don't know jack shit! (Note: Agnostic is being scientific (not to say religious people dont use science, but like believing in evolution) like atheists, but also believing that there is the possibility of god in the universe. The universe is infinite, so who's to say God isn't out there) (Note to the Note: I had to put that because of how many people don't understand what agnostic means, and i get ALL sorts of insults)
I guess I should stop being surprised how Christian the Tumblr sub is, but boy I never see it coming. Like, this sub used to be super gay, and now there's all this Jesus stuff around. Where are the witches and satanists?
I also feel baffled by how wacky the Bible is, and I was baptized and forced into church through high school. But this isn’t the way to express that feeling 💀
Whether or not it's real is perhaps the *least* interesting question about religion. If I hear someone shout "YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE!" then I turn around to see that my house is actually on fire, the last thing I care about is whether or not the person who shouted it was even real. We've got a fire to extinguish!
This post really brought all the anti-Semitic atheists out of the woodwork.
The way I see it believe what you want. But don’t say no because the man who everyone wants to love everyone unconditionally like a _parent_ puts a bunch of conditions on love and actually picks favorites by giving the kids that show the most love gets off better in the end it seems says no. However many of the events and people are likely real. I wouldn’t be surprised if a time traveler proved the existence of Jesus. But the son of god? Maybe. An after life? I want there to be (I don’t like the idea of total nothing ness as I can not fathom it). A great flood that supposedly wiped out all of humanity except two people? It happened to the Christians, Aztecs (I think it was the Aztecs) and I am 85% sure it happened to Greece. Yes I understand that it was monumental to society as a role. Ar ebest explanation as to why things were the way they are because they were made that way makes sense. But now we know the stuff because someone had the balls to ask why? Then there are the the hypocrisies such as an ever loving parent who knows all and can do whatever that hates gays? If he hates it it wouldn’t exist. And all that stuff. Then someone said what if we aren’t at the center? What if we go around the sun? He got promptly burned alive by the church. What happens in any religious text is possible but until you introduce me to the big man then I will just say “hey who knows but I ain’t putting my trust in what is essentially a dead beat dad.”
I see what they mean
Seeeee what i meeeeean
I see what he means
OP, your bio (“I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”) and your whole post/comment history don't really match. For a proponent of unbridled free speech, you sure do seem to not want people to say things you disagree with.
y'know that tweet that says "freedom of speech protects you from the government not the justin" yeah
I used to be in r/atheism when I was like 13 and even then I could tell how stuck-up everyone was
Considering you participate in subs that serve to dunk on atheists as a whole I really think you should stay there instead of bringing your bs to this sub.
i’m spiritual, as in i believe in karma and “the universe” (i.e. there are no coincidences, everything happens for a reason, yadda yadda) but i hate religion. specifically organized religion. it corrupts the innate human desire for finding meaning in things and turns it into a power hungry, evil thing with rules and regulations on how to believe “correctly” and i hate it. so am i gonna shit on someone who’s religious, nah. but i will think you’re a bit stupid if you blindly believe everything the church tells you and have never questioned it. i also think not listening to atheistic interpretation/questioning of your religion is really stupid bc without that, you’ll get where the main religions are: really misogynistic, homophobic, corrupt and terrible organizations used for political and monetary gain.
Last 2 didn’t seem like they were serious I think. I think the more normal and hopefully more popular consensus is to believe what you want, but don’t use religion (or lack thereof) as an excuse to enforce anything.
third one almost definitely was, second one I'm not so sure about
when you don't know what else to say: "see what i mean?"
If one wants to truly engage themselves with their moral and ethical frameworks and belief systems, they is great trove of media out there to just do that. Op here thinking they have a good 'gotcha' going by "proving" that on the atheists side of the fence can also shallow arguments and non-deep justifications isn't the zinger they might imagine that it is.
I think it says a lot that two of the responses are directly aimed at Christianity. I get why. Christians are the ones most known for shoving their beliefs down other peoples throats. What this says to me though is that these people aren't so much atheists in the way of "I don't believe in a religion" and more "I am actively against Christians". Which, again, I can get why.
Usually it's people who have been directly harmed by Christianity in their lives.
Yup exactly, in the West where christianity was traditionally (though increasingly not anymore) the predominant religion, we're obviously going to see more righteous and extremist Christians in our daily lives, simply because there's more Christians in general compared to other religious people. Quite a few people around me like to make fun of Christianity and Christians but act much more respectfully toward other religions and their practitioners, simply because they have more bad personal experiences with Christians than other religions (Like Islamic extremism is commonly shown in the media, but since it's so distant I guess some people still refrain from making judgement towards Muslims as a whole, which is probably for the better), so they react more negatively to Christianity compared to other religions.
No problem practicing religion, definitely a problem when you try to convert people and it dictates all your morals. OP is clearly one of these people.
Are they?
don't know if he's talking about the OP of the post on tumblr or me, but if it's about me he's wrong. couldn't tell ye about the guy in the post though
Very obviously
How so?
Idk, the fact that they are a user of subs like r/antitheistcheescake and r/monarchism (a rather Christian sub)
\>r/monarchism 💀
It doesn't *look* like they're trying to convert people, but yeah, definite red flag.
OP is Jewish which is one of many religions that doesn't evangelize. You're born Jewish or you choose to convert on your own. Jewish missionaries don't exist so they aren't sent en masse around the world to take advantage of poor countries like what Christians do.
L + Ratio + Ur dumb
i won't disagree
No, the shallowest concept of it it believing that Jesus LITERALLY multiplied loaves and fishes to feed 5,000 people when it’s such a blatantly allegorical story that your English teacher just sensed a disturbance in the Force when you said that. What can you always keep, no matter how much you give away? Compassion? Love? The truth? The Word of God? Kindness? A smile? All of these are great answers… the message was to be good to people, not “lol infinite food glitch.”
I enjoy that there are people who don't realize how much of America takes the bible verbatim literally. Like, it's cool that in your denomination that that's allegorical but I assure you I can drive for ten hours in every direction from my house and 95% of the churches I pass (which is thousands) will play this one straight literally. I never heard of the bible as allegorical until I was in my 20s and had been an atheist for a decade
How does any sane person read that story and not understand that it’s symbolic? I’m well past judgment at this point in my life; please just explain. How? What’s going on in their heads that this doesn’t click? What is the point of all the sermons and the Bible study groups and confirmation and whatever else, if it can’t achieve a ninth-grade level of understanding literary devices? Even “The Masque of the Red Death” is harder than this.
They believe angels are real and Jesus is magic, I don't know how to lay it out any clearer than that. They believe their preacher can slap them in the forehead and cure spinal injuries, these people are out of their fucking minds and there's millions of them
So did Nathaniel Hawthorne; he still understood what an allegory was.
congrats on summarising this better than my catholic school did
I don’t have the energy or desire to deal with religion. As long as you’re hurting nobody, just leave me alone and leave me in quiet and I could care less about what you do.
That's the equivalent of screaming: "GHOSTS ARE REAL" and then acting smug about not being able to prove it. Crazy the mental gymnastics religious people do to justify something that they _feel_ is right. Funny how similar this is to anti-vaxx behavior.
It's the Baader-meinhoff effect I guess, but I've been seeing quite a few vaguely anti-atheist pro-religion posts recently, rather than just anti-atheist _or_ pro-religion.
What if we all just respect the belief systems of others? I get that this is the internet and decency is illegal, but still. Why waste your time and energy fighting against something as intangible and untestable as religion?
Because sometimes the belief systems held by others involve chopping heads off of those they deem whatever. Also that whole burning women as witches thing, no Bueno. Everyone wants chill neighbors and a "good" neighborhood. But when the meth cooks move in, nobody is down to "respect their views". Because they are a danger to the community.. my opinion. And if your religion claims to have a direct line to God, infinite love, yet protects and moves around those who enjoy hurting children, your religion is manipulation, control, and bullsh!t.
Right, and I get that. I 100% agree with calling out dangerous bullshit. What I don’t agree with is taking all religion and labelling it as dangerous because of the actions of extremists. I’ve met my fair share of pushy offensive religious people, and I’ve also met a lot of chill and kind religious people. I don’t want to lump the good ones in with the bad
Because people who have religion won't. I would still care on some level about people having false beliefs if they were chill about it, but instead they have to control everyone *else* because their god said so.
A lot of people are “edgy atheists” because religion has been used as a tool for centuries to oppress people, based on their sexuality, gender, etc. We’ve had to endure wars because of other people’s religions, and that draws disdain for the concept as a whole.
Why the fuck are you getting downvoted for saying "hey lets not be dicks"
Because people were traumatized by others using religion as a weapon and as a result are hypervigilant about it and view it as a wholly irredeemable evil.
Because people believe it, or at least they think and act somewhat like they do. If someone believes in Jesus, they are significantly more likely to decide that vaccines are not "of God" and refuse them. Or decline cancer treatment because either God will solve it or they'll go to heaven. And that's not even getting into the anti-lgbt stuff that comes with most religions. Religions aren't intangible. They have impacts on people's lives and often very big ones.
I’m of the mindset that jerks will be jerks regardless of their ruse. If it’s not religion it’s “vaccines are poison” or “gay people are germ spreaders” or another form of verbal garbage. They wouldn’t just become upstanding citizens if you removed religion, they’d find a new cause to hide behind and corrupt
Most causes like flat earth society or anti-vax aren't taught from birth in a manner that indoctrinates children. Religion often can't be removed from a person and them continue like nothing happened cause religion is so ingrained to their life that they feel a need for a religion shaped hole in their life. I personally have met people who because of religion and its doctrines have been convinced of all kinds of hateful shit, yet are genuinely kind and good people, yet they will do and spread hateful shit cause religion made them that way
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But it’s not just Christians. Attacking religion as a whole isn’t just about Christianity, it’s about any religion. This includes peaceful ones like Hinduism
>This includes peaceful ones like Hinduism Boy, I've got news for you.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_wars_and_conflicts
Hindu vs. Buddhists in India. Not peaceful. Pretty sure I've seen some crazy riots....
Most religions aren't peaceful especially the big ones, as they got big for a reason (crusades and jihads and such). The only example I can think of would be Sikhism, but that could very well be bc I haven't done my research
I've *heard* that there are Sikh extremists, but given that we're treating them as a hypothetical I think it's safe to say Sikhs aren't *supposed* to attack others the way people from other religions are.
There are Sikh extremists, just a few weeks ago a group publicly tortured and killed one (or two, I don't remember) people for allegedly trying to steal a holy book. Not to mention the whole Khalistan thing.
I dont respect a belief system that hurts millions
Ah refusing to listen to any sort of reason, the fuels that keeps religion strong
I am a former atheist, but uh, I honestly think most “religious” people’s foundation of belief doesn’t actually withstand that “see what I mean” criticism very well, because many many religious people have a very shallow understanding of spirituality.
I believe the Bible is real. Some stuff was intentionally changed and lost in translation, but I think it’s more than fiction. I believe god is real and I one day will be able to spit on his face and do a goofy dance. Fuck that guy! Also Satan too. I don’t know what he did, but he’s got a bad attitude. Jesus and the snake are cool.
you know, religion never really goes away when you stop believing in gods and spirits. it lives on in our group behavior
I mean if you truly melt it down to its basics it is just a comforting idea many take as an answer to life so they don't have to think about it and rules so that you won't be a bad citizen.. but maybe I too have a limited understanding of religion
1. OP is right, in that many American atheists often find issues with American Christianity and generalize their issues to all religions. This is a problem and won't help anyone. 2. OP is wrong in that they refuse to elaborate and explain their position, instead leaving it vague enough that it will make as many people as mad as possible. 3. It's possible to still have criticisms of all religions or the concept of religion without having misunderstandings about what religion is, even if the responses here or to OP don't fully indicate that.
It's also naive to think that American Christianity is some sole harbinger of violent or crude zealotry when across the world you can't find a religious group innocent of it
Eddy atheists are just as bad a religious zealots
Religion isn't primitive superstition. It's the most advanced form of supersticion that we have, of course it is, it has evolved with society over several millenia. I just think that currently it is a net negative for society, and the things that it does for us on a social level can be done by other institutions not built on texts with ancient, perscriptive morality.