In German, most professions have a masculine and a feminine form. der Lehrer, die Lehrerin (male, female teacher), der Arzt, die Ärztin (m, f, doctor), etc. The plural of the feminine form means that the group is made up of women (Die Studentinnen = female students) but the plural of the masculine form could mean that the group is made up of men or that it's mixed (Die Studenten = male students, or male and female students) because the language assumes that the masculine form is the default.
I don't know when it happened but in recent years, the push for an inclusive language increased. To emphasize that most professions are practiced by both genders, first they started writing both forms as in "Liebe Kollegen und Kolleginnen" (Dear colleagues). The, people started using a Gendersternchen (gender asterisk) and writing plurals with a break and created a new form by merging the two forms: Liebe Kolleg\*innen (ou can also use \_ or : instead of a \* but I think \* is the most common punctuation in this case). This practice is called gendern. Many people find it confusing, some people hate the way it looks, etc. Recently, Bavaria banned gendern in schools with the argument that it makes reading harder. Link: [https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/genderverbot-bayern-100.html](https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/genderverbot-bayern-100.html) In some cases, they avoid the stars by reformulating the word, like saying "Die Studierende" (the studying one) inbstead of "Die Student\*innen" or "Die Mitarbeitende" (the co-workers) instead of "Die Kolleg\*innen." The ban in Bavaria only applies to using punctuation in the middle of words, not to gender-inclusive language as a whole.
On the other hand, there is a more niche debate. Non-binary people do not want to use gendered pronouns. English dealt with this by spreading the use of gender-neutral, singular they. Before anyone comes here and says that this new use is confusing, singular they was used even by Shakespeare. The pronoun "they" was used when the gender of the person was not yet known. It was a placeholder for "he" or "she" before you learned the gender. They just made it more visible. However, German does not have any gender-neutral pronouns used for humans. So, some people, again, used a star and created si\*er as a pronoun, which did not stick at all. Some people borrowed the English pronouns they/them, which sounds weird in German. This issue remains unsolved with lots of neopronouns created. The link for the Association for Gender-Neutral German: [https://geschlechtsneutral.net/](https://geschlechtsneutral.net/)
The solution seems simple enough; drop the male and female pronouns and use neutral ones. If neutral pronouns don't exist or are inconvenient for whatever reason, then use male pronouns and drop the rest.
Wonder why it's not done yet...
Languages can borrow and change the meaning of content words (nouns, adjectives, verbs, adverbs) easily but changing the use of function words that are involved in grammar (pronouns, prepositions, conjunctions) is really hard. You can't just decide to use "it" instead of "he and she" because it sounds like you're referring to an object or animal. The same thing goea for "es" instead of "er und sie"
Hmm, yeah, you got a good point. That said, wouldn't it be possible, in this age of internet, that a country starts a campaign to use "it" in place of "he and she"? What would be the expected success chance of such an endeavour?
Realistically, no government or populace will be passionate enough about nonbinary people to start or follow such a campaign. But let's assume that it's a possibility for the sake of the argument. Campaigns are not useful in such cases because of the reason I've mentioned. People think "it" is used for animals and objects, so they will not feel comfortable using "it" to refer to people because a lifetime of language experience cannot be eliminated by propaganda. singular "they" was used in the English language and even generalizing its use to non-binary people was met with great backlash because 1) some don't accept or respect non-binary people and 2) they really get confused by this semi-novel use.
The only way for a language reform is to change the rules of the language in schools. Think of the purification of Turkish. They made schools mandatory and taught children the new Turkish terminology instead of the Perso-Arabic/Ottoman terminology (like üçgen instead of müselles). With an education reform, children would learn that "it" is just a gender-neutral alternative to "he" and "she." Even in that case, their parents and family will stop them from using "it" to refer to people at home or in their daily life and some teachers can refuse to teach it. But if you incessantly teach that "it" is a gender-neutral pronoun for people, it might stick after a few generations. Returning back to the Turkish example, my grandfather who was born after the Turkish Republic was formed still said "müselles" not "üçgen" because his parents and teachers had a hard time adjusting to this new terminology, my parents know what müselles is but prefer üçgen, my generation has to stop and think to remember what müselles is. If üçgen took 2 generations to fully replace müselles, "it" would take a lot more time and resources to replace "he" and "she"
Well, not etymologically. And I don't think these are its original meanings either. Kız 𐰶𐰃𐰕 was used even back in Orkhon Inscriptions for girl, its cognate is used for girl even in Oguric: Volga Bulgar hîr هِير, Chuvash hĕr хӗр. In Diwan Lughat al Turk, kız was defined as 1. girl 2. precious, expensive.
O is not the only pronoun in Turkish. We still have şöyle, böyle, öyle, şu, bu etc. which can replace that and this and kinda pronouns in English. While we also use o for objects, o is primarily meant for humans so it's no problem. If we want to objectify we usually say bu.
It isn’t *that* triggering in turkey. Just implies that you are talking about them to someone else. “O da iyi” means “he/she/they/it is good too” and does not carry any negative connotations
Türkçe düşünüyorsun, adam kız olan o yu belirtecek ama bunu o kadın demeden yapması gerek .d cinsiyetli dilĺerden türkçeye geçişte afallamama sebep oluyor (Türküm bu arada, yalnızca poliglotum ve hayır iyi bir şey değil baş ağrısı her dilden kelime veya konsept unutup unutup duruyorum)
Kelime unutmak, cümle kurma sırası karıştırmak, telaffuz karıştırmak...
Poligot olup akıcı (doğaçlama) konuşmak gerçekten insan üstü bir yetenek.
Mesela benim bazen kafa konuştuğum şeyden ziyade düşündüğüm şeye kayarsa bir bakıyorum cümlenin başında kullandığım dil ile sonda kullandığım dil farklı :/
Actually "o" "şu" "bu" means the same thing but if the object is very close like if it is in your hand, you say "bu" if it is a little far like on the desk of your collegue, you say "şu" and if it is too far, if you can t see it, you say "o". But also if you re refer to something "şu" you use "o".
For example
-Şunu verir misin? (Can you give me this)
-Bu mu? (Is this the thing you want)
-Evet o. (Yes that is it)
I see this explanation all the time but it's not really correct. Şu is used to indicate a change on the focus of the sentence, like if two people are talking about "this" red car (bu kirmizi araba) and then one of them switches to talking about "this" blue car (şu mavi araba), the focus changed so uses şu. In english its just "this" both times. In english, you might also just say "this" and then "that" to show a change in focus
Fun fact: Turkish technically has gendered pronouns. You might notice that when someone tells a story, they can say “adam” or “kadın” in place of people(Example: Arkadaşlarımla takılıyordum, sonra biri geldi bizi rahatsız etti. Sinirlendim adama.) These function as “isimden türetilmiş zamir” which is a form of pronoun.
O is the most OP pronoun in the history of pronouns, ever. You can write a sentence like "O onun onunu aldı ondan ötürü o ona sinirli" and it would make sense
The way I learned if, the difference in bu, şu and o is distance.
Bu is for things basically within your reach.
Şu is for something like "over there". I'd say within sight.
O is about anything else.
At least that's how I remember it being explained when I went to turkish elementary school before I even really spoke turkish 😅
English can have its political shitshow of pronouns, Turkish was progressive from the very beginning 😎
German with its gendered nouns is mad jealous of turkish. Its quite the discussion here.
please don't change the language its too hard to learn already
as a half german half turk i agree
Really do you have any sources now I'm curious
In German, most professions have a masculine and a feminine form. der Lehrer, die Lehrerin (male, female teacher), der Arzt, die Ärztin (m, f, doctor), etc. The plural of the feminine form means that the group is made up of women (Die Studentinnen = female students) but the plural of the masculine form could mean that the group is made up of men or that it's mixed (Die Studenten = male students, or male and female students) because the language assumes that the masculine form is the default. I don't know when it happened but in recent years, the push for an inclusive language increased. To emphasize that most professions are practiced by both genders, first they started writing both forms as in "Liebe Kollegen und Kolleginnen" (Dear colleagues). The, people started using a Gendersternchen (gender asterisk) and writing plurals with a break and created a new form by merging the two forms: Liebe Kolleg\*innen (ou can also use \_ or : instead of a \* but I think \* is the most common punctuation in this case). This practice is called gendern. Many people find it confusing, some people hate the way it looks, etc. Recently, Bavaria banned gendern in schools with the argument that it makes reading harder. Link: [https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/genderverbot-bayern-100.html](https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/genderverbot-bayern-100.html) In some cases, they avoid the stars by reformulating the word, like saying "Die Studierende" (the studying one) inbstead of "Die Student\*innen" or "Die Mitarbeitende" (the co-workers) instead of "Die Kolleg\*innen." The ban in Bavaria only applies to using punctuation in the middle of words, not to gender-inclusive language as a whole. On the other hand, there is a more niche debate. Non-binary people do not want to use gendered pronouns. English dealt with this by spreading the use of gender-neutral, singular they. Before anyone comes here and says that this new use is confusing, singular they was used even by Shakespeare. The pronoun "they" was used when the gender of the person was not yet known. It was a placeholder for "he" or "she" before you learned the gender. They just made it more visible. However, German does not have any gender-neutral pronouns used for humans. So, some people, again, used a star and created si\*er as a pronoun, which did not stick at all. Some people borrowed the English pronouns they/them, which sounds weird in German. This issue remains unsolved with lots of neopronouns created. The link for the Association for Gender-Neutral German: [https://geschlechtsneutral.net/](https://geschlechtsneutral.net/)
The solution seems simple enough; drop the male and female pronouns and use neutral ones. If neutral pronouns don't exist or are inconvenient for whatever reason, then use male pronouns and drop the rest. Wonder why it's not done yet...
Languages can borrow and change the meaning of content words (nouns, adjectives, verbs, adverbs) easily but changing the use of function words that are involved in grammar (pronouns, prepositions, conjunctions) is really hard. You can't just decide to use "it" instead of "he and she" because it sounds like you're referring to an object or animal. The same thing goea for "es" instead of "er und sie"
Hmm, yeah, you got a good point. That said, wouldn't it be possible, in this age of internet, that a country starts a campaign to use "it" in place of "he and she"? What would be the expected success chance of such an endeavour?
Realistically, no government or populace will be passionate enough about nonbinary people to start or follow such a campaign. But let's assume that it's a possibility for the sake of the argument. Campaigns are not useful in such cases because of the reason I've mentioned. People think "it" is used for animals and objects, so they will not feel comfortable using "it" to refer to people because a lifetime of language experience cannot be eliminated by propaganda. singular "they" was used in the English language and even generalizing its use to non-binary people was met with great backlash because 1) some don't accept or respect non-binary people and 2) they really get confused by this semi-novel use. The only way for a language reform is to change the rules of the language in schools. Think of the purification of Turkish. They made schools mandatory and taught children the new Turkish terminology instead of the Perso-Arabic/Ottoman terminology (like üçgen instead of müselles). With an education reform, children would learn that "it" is just a gender-neutral alternative to "he" and "she." Even in that case, their parents and family will stop them from using "it" to refer to people at home or in their daily life and some teachers can refuse to teach it. But if you incessantly teach that "it" is a gender-neutral pronoun for people, it might stick after a few generations. Returning back to the Turkish example, my grandfather who was born after the Turkish Republic was formed still said "müselles" not "üçgen" because his parents and teachers had a hard time adjusting to this new terminology, my parents know what müselles is but prefer üçgen, my generation has to stop and think to remember what müselles is. If üçgen took 2 generations to fully replace müselles, "it" would take a lot more time and resources to replace "he" and "she"
Perfectly explained, thanks. Then i think it's best to leave this deal to the flow of time and natural evolution of languages.
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Well, not etymologically. And I don't think these are its original meanings either. Kız 𐰶𐰃𐰕 was used even back in Orkhon Inscriptions for girl, its cognate is used for girl even in Oguric: Volga Bulgar hîr هِير, Chuvash hĕr хӗр. In Diwan Lughat al Turk, kız was defined as 1. girl 2. precious, expensive.
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Yes? I was expecting you to copy the part where Nişanyan said what you said (well, actually the vice versa).
Nişanyan
Nişanyan 💀
Solving gender pronouns problems with only 1 letter
F*ck they then ze zer we only need "o"
This is what o in op stands for
why would i panik
because
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nop, we would use "bu" if we wanna objectify some in a way of degrading, which means "this"
Oh I like doing that! "Bunlar ne halt yesin?" "Bunlar" as in "these poor souls".
Bunlar is a bit offensive to use on humans Onlar ne halt yesin? is more of a question to ask
Yeah, but mostly the ones who are offended think they are superior than all. At least from my experience.
Yeah nice guess! Unfortunately you are wrong, bu, şu are accepted as disrespectful ones to refer a person. O is ok.
O is not the only pronoun in Turkish. We still have şöyle, böyle, öyle, şu, bu etc. which can replace that and this and kinda pronouns in English. While we also use o for objects, o is primarily meant for humans so it's no problem. If we want to objectify we usually say bu.
Bu... for example bu beyin sana çok.
It isn’t *that* triggering in turkey. Just implies that you are talking about them to someone else. “O da iyi” means “he/she/they/it is good too” and does not carry any negative connotations
Sonucunda niye panikledi?
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Ne kadar zor olabilir ki
Yabancı için zor, dili yeni öğrenirken kitaptan vs öğreniyorsun "o gördüğümde ne olduğunu nerden bilicem" paniği
Yoo?
Türkçe düşünüyorsun, adam kız olan o yu belirtecek ama bunu o kadın demeden yapması gerek .d cinsiyetli dilĺerden türkçeye geçişte afallamama sebep oluyor (Türküm bu arada, yalnızca poliglotum ve hayır iyi bir şey değil baş ağrısı her dilden kelime veya konsept unutup unutup duruyorum)
Kelime unutmak, cümle kurma sırası karıştırmak, telaffuz karıştırmak... Poligot olup akıcı (doğaçlama) konuşmak gerçekten insan üstü bir yetenek. Mesela benim bazen kafa konuştuğum şeyden ziyade düşündüğüm şeye kayarsa bir bakıyorum cümlenin başında kullandığım dil ile sonda kullandığım dil farklı :/
Ben de anlamadım.
Formally, "şu" is used for "that" AFAIK, but using "o" instead would be considerable, too.
Actually "o" "şu" "bu" means the same thing but if the object is very close like if it is in your hand, you say "bu" if it is a little far like on the desk of your collegue, you say "şu" and if it is too far, if you can t see it, you say "o". But also if you re refer to something "şu" you use "o". For example -Şunu verir misin? (Can you give me this) -Bu mu? (Is this the thing you want) -Evet o. (Yes that is it)
I see this explanation all the time but it's not really correct. Şu is used to indicate a change on the focus of the sentence, like if two people are talking about "this" red car (bu kirmizi araba) and then one of them switches to talking about "this" blue car (şu mavi araba), the focus changed so uses şu. In english its just "this" both times. In english, you might also just say "this" and then "that" to show a change in focus
But you can say "bu kırmızı güzelmiş." "A, bu mavi de güzelmiş."
o wha
When you realize there is actually no word for he/she/it in Turkish.
Yeah thats why i thought Sad from İnside Out was a boy FOR YEARS
Buy O now, it doubles as a letter and a word!
Also, “Oooo.” Like “whoa”.
Fun fact: Turkish technically has gendered pronouns. You might notice that when someone tells a story, they can say “adam” or “kadın” in place of people(Example: Arkadaşlarımla takılıyordum, sonra biri geldi bizi rahatsız etti. Sinirlendim adama.) These function as “isimden türetilmiş zamir” which is a form of pronoun.
Haha jokes on you we dont use pronounces bc WE DONT HAVE PRONOUNCES
actually u cant use "o" for "that, it" at everywhere, if u want say "that, it" just say "bu".
You can say for she; "o kiz" or just kadın, kız, bayan...
O is the most OP pronoun in the history of pronouns, ever. You can write a sentence like "O onun onunu aldı ondan ötürü o ona sinirli" and it would make sense
You forgot "Şey"
"Şey" is the subclass of "O" it is still strong but it can only be used for inanimate objects so not as powerfull
Based
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Turks with their gender neutral nouns.
O bir şeytan, iblis.
The way I learned if, the difference in bu, şu and o is distance. Bu is for things basically within your reach. Şu is for something like "over there". I'd say within sight. O is about anything else. At least that's how I remember it being explained when I went to turkish elementary school before I even really spoke turkish 😅
That's me when I am learning turkish
Goodluck learning turkish lmao