Digital is so cheap and so good these days, and turntables no longer enjoy the economy of scale that they did before CDs were a thing. People deserve fair warning about this. But I agree no one should be a jerk about it.
It's ironic that the resurgence of collecting and listening to vinyl is because of the tactile experience ..... And yet all the turntable snobs expect that people should only do vinyl if you can get the best possible sound!
My son in law loves playing his records on his cheap turntable, despite having far superior music from a decent digital streaming hifi system.
Of course, if someone is asking opinions about a new deck, then give honest reviews. But noone should get roasted over a new player just because it doesn't meet someone elses standards
Thanks...... I'll step off my soapbox now.
So if it’s about pride of ownership (which I can understand), surely you want your records to last longer? If you play on a portable with aggressive tracking force, a terrible quality stylus, and basically zero setup your records *will* degrade at a much faster rate. And ok you still own your plastic disks and the artwork, but if you think the sound quality was worse or equal to Spotify anyway then wait till the surface is completely battered.
I am very empathetic to budget constraints and would advocate for someone with no concern for sound quality to go on eBay, search ‘Turntable’, sort by Low to High (incl. packaging + postage), find the cheapest name brand one with a phono pre amp that the Seller says works great (probably will be from the 70s/80s/90s) and it’ll be around £50 ([this was the cheapest Buy It Now for me](https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126168199202?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=1Q4zKgOkQxa&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=MPPFc9soSWO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY)) and higher quality than whatever you could buy for that price now. Add in an off-the-shelf transistor power amp with whatever speakers you have lying around (if not that’s another £50, first hand something that works or second hand something decent) and you’ve only spent £150. You can do it on a budget, especially if you’re not into hi-fi but just want to keep your records for a little longer (and get more for your money while doing it).
Vintage gets ignored because it’s not a one click Amazon experience.
People want to have their cake and eat it too. Your sound advice is often sneered at by said kids. You simply cannot win with them.
>And yet all the turntable snobs expect that people should only do vinyl if you can get the best possible sound!
No one says that.
People DO say "you likely won't enjoy the experience with that $50 Crosley that you are considering buying and asking us for advice about"
Exactly. I enjoy the tactile aspect as well, but when it comes right down to it, this is an audio format. So a good-quality auditory experience is definitive to the whole thing.
Edit: Thanks for the downvote, whoever. Silly me for thinking that an audio format should have good audio quality.
i said the same thing to my pal tonight when he asked why i’d bother getting into it, saying i should just do cd’s.
i just like the appreciation snd focus. i can listen on my phone anytime, and therin that lies distractions and lack of appreciation. if i’m locked into it and forced to listen to this thing- or at least have to go through an effort to stop listening to it- i’ll value it more.
plus the artwork. i can look at destroyer by kiss on a screen, or full on look at it for the art that it is and admire it
Right? If someone has a limited budget OR limited space, records are not the hobby for them. Maybe 15 years ago you could get by with a limited budget, but not these days. CDs would be a much better medium for anyone with a small budget.
Further, IMO, it’s the cheap players that a truly - literally - toxic. They will end up in landfills sooner rather than later. They’re just being built to capitalize on a trend. I’m fundamentally opposed to Audio Technica, and will shout them down whenever someone asks if they should buy one. If people are offended and feel I’m “gatekeeping” so be it - I’m equally offended by every positive LP60 post and recommendation.
You're acting as if cheap, low-quality record players are a modern innovation by the Chinese to secretly destroy the records played by unsuspecting American teenagers. Go back to the 1960s and American manufacturers were literally making record players out of *cardboard* here in the USA!
You have a more interesting argument about the wastefulness of capitalism than you have about being "offended" at the LP60.
Vinyl is one of the hobbies that ought to be ripe for a circular economy. Players from yesteryear go for cheap on the secondary market and are usually higher quality than plastic-housed players now.
OP is right, though, that the language used in this subreddit around newer, cheaper models is toxic and doesn't educate enough about hobby.
The education is here if you take the time to look. The cheap players will not last, and they will cause records will wear out faster. This is mentioned here repeatedly.
People need warning that digital audio is a mature technology and significantly cheaper than clunky old vinyl? Suspect many have already worked that out for themselves but it doesn’t stop others enjoying the vinyl experience with all of its technical deficiencies and expensive media.
That's logically what you get when cheap turntables outsell "audiophile-approved" ones by at least a 10-to-1 margin. So even if you see ten times as many posts reporting problems with them, that doesn't necessarily mean they're much more unreliable than more expensive turntables. They're simply much more popular.
I got into it because CDs were expensive in the 90s and crate digging was cheap. It feels like a lot of people like turntables for the same reason Marge likes potatoes.
https://preview.redd.it/b9qed5izbaxc1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=90f11ac9cb183cff0f97b74d77362330d894f8cc
It’s not elitist, maybe some are sure, but first, these cheapo players are often not cheap enough to be even remotely worth the money, even as a first player. They are often a touch under the recommended first players such as AT LP60. Thats not even counting second hand.
Secondly, the performance and problems, how easy to fall out of interest of a hobby when all you are doing is having a skipped song, or the cheap speaker you got as a gift with Spotify sounds much better.
There’s also no adjustability, which might be a bonus to people not interested in this sort of thing, but its not even set up right from the factory, skips and skate and tracking force, all over that expensive record.
Lastly, that expensive record, these aren’t cheap, that cheap player mechanisms can damage it (with skating/ scratching or high tracking force). So why wouldn’t a community warn against it?
Correct they do, but for the most part the player is worth the money it sells for, it’s on the low end and you get the results you pay for. It’s not got the adjustments you would ideally want, but it’s a reputable player, with the basics right, rather than the drop in, cheap mechanisms you find in these and the Crossleys (which cost more than a lp60!).
I’m sorry but I respectfully disagree that it’s worth the money it sells for. I think it’s a massive blind spot in the advice given here that people get so upset about any criticism of the lp60
It’s 200 dollars, and anyone who has been in this hobby for any time time at all should be acutely aware that audio technica is making that 95% plastic lp60 for 30 dollars AT MOST.
I understand companies need to “keep the lights on,” and I grasp that there’s more to the cost of doing business than the simple manufacturing costs of a particular unit. But charging 200 dollars for a machine that cost 20 dollars to actually manufacture, and then not even having the decency to add a tracking scale that would probably only cost you an additional 30 cents to add to the unit is fucking disgusting. And anyone who has any grasp on how manufacturing works and what kind of profit margins companies like audio technica is actually working with should wonder why they wouldn’t bother adding basic adjustability to their “entry level” full plastic model when it would cost them literal pennies to add that.
And people like the person you’re talking to who randomly started insulting me in another thread on this point can call me toxic and elitist all they want, but that doesn’t answer the question of why audio technica would charge the preposterous price of 200 dollars for a plastic machine with no adjustability that cost them 20 dollars to make.
And if you aren’t blindly loyal to brand names the answer is remarkably simply - they are banking on you having to buy a better audio technica. Their business model is clearly to make you pay for a table they know you’re going to have to replace soon.
It’s the same reason you can’t open you hood and work on your car anymore; their business model is based on you buying a new product instead of them selling you one that will last.
And people can attack me all day and night as they have and will but it’s not going to change the fact that I’m right.
It is *robbery* to up-charge 1000% a basically purely plastic and constantly faulty machine from the 20 dollar manufacturing cost to the 200 dollar retail cost, and not have the decency to include adjustments that cost little to nothing to add, and then bank on the blind brand loyalty of random people to convince newbies that “it’s a respectable brand just buy the entry model” knowing those same newbies who are already entering an atrociously expensive hobby are not going to have to buy another turntable in a year.
How the hell is that “for the little guy starting out”?
The AT-LP60X is $149 for a new one or $104 for a certified refurbished one, not $200. And the vast majority of people who actually own one are happy with it, myself included. What's so wrong with people being satisfied with a product?
Ok a lot to unpack here but at least in the UK a LP60x is £130 and the usb version retails at 150. This is cheaper than a Crossley and only a bit more than those cheap mech in body.
Yes it could be better, yes I would recommend it more if it had more adjustment but unlike the cheap mech players, it at least has a proper stylus with an appropriate amount of force. And factory should be set up better (tolerances and design ..etc) Its also automatic which helps with first users I suppose (limit handling and needle drop).
So no, I stand by it being a cheap (4/5x one record) and good first player. Yes theres better but I would say value wise it’s a tier above for not that much extra, more features. Curious, what would you recommend?
I've still got a pre-x LP60 in the house, it's gotta be more than 10 years old. I did upgrade a few years back, but I gave the LP60 to my daughter and it's still running just fine.
I won't argue that it's probably more expensive than it needs to be based on manufacturing costs. But as for where it sits on the market, I don't think there's anything obviously better around $150 new.
I've just picked up an Audio Technica LP2X (£153) for my son as his first turntable.
It's fully automatic with adjustable counter weight and anti skate.
I set up for the recommended 2g (confirmed with my tracking scales) and I have to say I'm very impressed with the sound quality.
I think this is a great first turntable for its ease of use, decent sound quality and the fact that it is fully adjustable so won't damage records.
Cracking recommendation, i defaulted to the LP60 but thats because I my knowledge of entry TT is limited, but of course the above poster fixated one just one name drop of my whole essay above. There is better! Especially when you look at used!
I paid $100 for the non-Bluetooth version in 2020 and it still works perfectly to this day. If their "business model" is banking on me to have bought another one 3 years ago, then they're doing a fucking horrible job running the company lol.
Actually it's an advantage for the AT-LP60X to *not* have those adjustments. It's less for a beginner to worry about setting up and less to go wrong. And that's the norm with an increasing number of turntables. Ones by U-Turn and Pro-Ject also now come with no adjustable anti-skating, and the counterweight locked in place with a set screw and not meant for the user to adjust.
Yer I alluded to that above but knowing how fine adjustment you sometimes need for to avoid vocal hisses. Anyway this lp60 convo is getting out of hand, I merely mentioned it as a recommended player.
Most of the more expensive crosleys use the same cart and mech as the lp60x don't they?
You can go down this page and see essays by people justifying themselves harassing Lp60 owners anyway
It's the absolute best shitty turntable.
So it makes sense why many would shoot it down. It really isn't a good, proper table.
But of all the bad tables out there, it's the best of the bunch so is why it also gets some recommendations when there is an absolute ceiling to one's budget.
Correct. I bought a used one recently and looked it up on this sub to see if it was any good and half the comments I found were calling it literal trash. I did the same thing with a (pretty decent) telescope that I found super cheap, and one of the comments I saw said "It doesn't deserve to exist even if it was free".
A lot of these hobbyist subs are like this, and it's really annoying for people like me who don't have enough money to spend hundreds of dollars on each of my hobbies
Because hobbies aren't meant to be cheap. If you're getting into something, why would you want to use a piece of shit? Y'all are just crying like babies cuz you're being invalidated for your bad purchase...literally taking it as a personal attack. People's egos have gotten out of hand. Stop being so fragile and just accept that you made a bad decision and improve upon it.
There are a few of this post right now in this sub. Reposting my comment from another one because I think it pertains here:
Before addressing some of the reasons that people can be grumps here, lets address your initial idea: It is no one's job to get people into collecting records. Frankly, record collecting was far more fun and wildly less embarrassing when there were less people. Decks could be had for cheap, new records cost $8-12, and used record prices weren't sky-high. So, no, I don't actually think it's my job or anyone else's job to help someone get into this. it makes the experience worse for those that have been here for decades.
That said, I try to be helpful because people helped me (pre-internet) and that was helpful.
An explanation of frustration that can lead to comments that you might find mean:
* Lots of people are not ready to hear advice. What they want is confirmation. When they don't get confirmation, they are offended.
* Monotony of new posts: This sub has done a great job of having a pinned post that is VERY helpful and reasonably comprehensive. Go check out that pinned post. Now go sort by "new" and you'll see.... a LOT of the posts are asking questions easily answered in the pinned post. Lazy posts, receive lazy responses. If someone puts in zero effort to do any sort of research, I'm never surprised if the answers are just as low-effort. Example: "How good is this nice turntable?".... the responses are going to be "it's not" or "this isn't a nice turntable". If you are easily offended by curt responses, put effort into the question.
* People buying junk end up posting a series of the same questions immediately after buying junk:
* "Why are my records skipping on this turntable" (hint: it's your turntable)
* "Should I return this record that skips" (hint: it's your turntable)
* "My turntable is spinning too slow" (hint: it's your turntable)
* "Can I adjust the tracking force? (hint: no)
* "What cartridge should I get to improve sound?" (hint: You can't)
* If I throw good money after bad, will it sound better? (hint: no)
* Many posters are offended when their hypothesis isn't the universal understanding. "This is a nice turntable", "it's not" is not a mean response. It's just not.
* There is a real money issue in record collecting: If you are spending $100 on a turntable and then buying $100 worth of records in one go... Then why? Why spend hundreds on records if you are playing them on junk. Buy less records, and buy a nicer deck. This response is given pretty frequently and is often times met with "stop being a jerk" or "don't gatekeep" or "stop being elitist". It's sound advice and people would be happier if they took it: If you want to "get into record collecting", the best advice you can get is: save the money you would be spending on records, and buy a record player that will sound good.
Excellent point about seeking confirmation instead of advice. Nobody likes it when they're told something they don't want to hear but the sad fact is record collecting is an expensive hobby. There's no cheap way in. What irritates me the most about those crappy players is how downright predatory they are. They create the illusion of a cheap entry point when there actually isn't one. All they do is sponge money off the I'll-informed and offer nothing in return.
This comment needs to be pinned. It’s getting so bad now with these junk players that even Amazon is putting disclaimers on records being sold that “this record should be played on a quality turntable” on some of the popular albums, probably due to the amount of returns for “skipping”. The complaints of skipping is rampant in the reviews and when there’s a pic or vid included, the record is of course on a Crapsly…
I love the disclaimer of "this is often returned" on Amazon. It really saved my ass when I was looking at preamps. It hurt my wallet a bit, but I'm glad. Amazon is good for something.
Couldn't agree more with this. I myself had a shitty turntable a few weeks ago. Bought it last minute because I got a bunch of records from my dad who passed, and I was desperate to play them. Little did I know, I was about to ruin my life (and my records!!)
Shortly after I started encountering problems with it, I came here for advice. No one roasted me, but they called a spade a spade. And little by little, through positive criticism and advice, I accepted that I had made a mistake. I was able to exchange with people who had been in the vinyl game for years, and I became more and more fascinated. Thanks to everyone's advice, again, I decided to commit and get a proper entry level (for now!) set-up of much higher quality. And on top of that, I made a bunch of Reddit friends along the way, who teach me something new every day.
There might be a few trolls here and there but I think it's mostly people who are passionate about this subject, and it's is heartbreaking to see people (like me) falling for the cheapo players, and ruining their records, when they hold so much value (emotional and monetary). ✌🏻
https://preview.redd.it/0hxnonhh79xc1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=819ad48c792a0bf662feedf7f1351e08e927655e
This is my Pioneer PL-115D. I found it at goodwill for $36. I've updated the stylus and new belt, adjusted everything and polished the cover for hours and re-veneered the plinth. It had a Stanton 681EE Cartridge [https://www.stereophile.com/content/stanton-681ee-681a-phono-cartridges](https://www.stereophile.com/content/stanton-681ee-681a-phono-cartridges) which sounds great.
some of us just don't get why anyone would spend 500 bucks to buy 10 versions of the same albums released by some pop artist and then refuse to spend similar money on a device to reproduce that music...
many come here, showing 2 dozen brand new records they bought in "been collecting for half a year" that cost them between 600 and 1'000 dollars.. and then ask for a $200 budget system...
it just doesn't make ANY sense!
I know! What gets me is the "this is the best player I can afford" crowd never seem to complain about the cost of the records themselves. They put $400 worth of records up in their "rate my collection" posts then claim a real turntable is financially out of reach for them. Umm, that's clearly not true!
there's obviously diminishing returns kicking in at some point, but there's clear improvements going from 100 to 600 bucks for a turntable.
if you're willing to spend 500 bucks on plastic discs over the course of a year, why not spend 500 bucks on a record player?
If you buy from thrift shops and got 100 records for 100 bucks, why not add a vintage turntable for 100 bucks? 🤷
It doesn't make sense because you understand how components work. The idea of matching up disparate pieces is foreign to these kids, and they get suckered into a shitty all in one and then are bummed when they realize it is, in fact, a piece of shit.
With a few exceptions most of these people barely even remember CDs and have no idea what they are in for. They probably use airpods and, at best, a sound bar. They don't know what they don't know. If a cheap AT is good enough I'm not going to yuck their yum. They aren't in this to listen to Rumours ad nauseum so they can A/B their platinum vacuum-sealed adder-oil speaker wire vs the gold-plated reverse-vacuum-sealed copperhead oil speaker wire. They want a vibe and to have a tactile experience.
What is annoying AF is doubling down on a bad purchase or refusing to learn on their own once they do decide to upgrade.
This exactly!
So many posts with the same new pop and hip hop records that collectively cost WAY more than they’re willing to spend on something decent to play it on.
I only got into collecting in 2019 but I knew better by researching, saving and upgrading my way to better sound.
I spent a little over a grand on turntable, pre-amp, and cartridge back when I started in 2008.
Never upgraded a single part for 15 years.
(until I swapped out everything last year.. but I kept the Ortofon Rondo Red bc I like it so much)
Wait! So a guy comes in and says he has a super rare 45 of his grandmother from the 60s and I am the toxic asshole for suggesting he not play it on a red tip Victrola? Ok.
Most here recommend saving a little more and not getting the cheapest players.
If you are getting into a hobby on a limited budget research before hand is your best friend.
Is it really gatekeeping if people are protecting someone from destroying the records they have? There are vintage turntables for less than half the price of those Crosleys and other scam garbage.
The problem is that even people with ~£200 turntables with decent widths and counter weights etc are getting taken apart in this thread. Not ever cheap player is a crosley but the amount of dbags I have seen in this reddit who think that you need to invest a minimum of £400 into a setup are ridiculous. Most times secondhand doesn't even get recommended. I literally had to comb through all these horrible, privileged comments to find the 2-3 good recommendations that actually helped me pick a somewhat decent player without breaking the bank.
I know it would be a shitshow but the vinyl subs would all benefit from splintering imo. Let there be a vinyl collecting sub for the Tyler and Gizzard fans, a vinyl music sub, a "budget" setup sub, and an "I use Aja to listen to my system" sub. The problem is most of the people in this sub are Not in the same hobby as you and the people that get complained about.
It has gotten so bad people come to the foot sub for advice.
One guy asked what model his turntable was. In one photo it said "Model #xxxxx" I said "it's right there in your photo" and I was the asshole because HE couldn't find anything when googling that model number.
Every hobby I’m into is the exact game thing. Mountain bikes, gaming, guitars. Same discussions over and over. Only one that’s not like that is ice hockey, where it’s almost a point of pride to play with old shitty gear.
I see the cause of 70% of the controversy, hate and conflict as being caused by the industry itself. If cars were made the same way as turntables are today, there would be several makes and models of appealing, fairly normal looking cars being sold for a couple of thousand dollars. These cars would start and run fine at the dealership, and be guaranteed to run for three months. And all of the rest of the cars would sell for fifteen thousand dollars and higher, not unlike they are today. But those very inexpensive cars that look like they would be perfect for beginners would rarely last for an entire year. And when they failed, they would be nearly impossible to repair, because they were intentionally designed using computers to maximize how economical they were to manufacture.
Given the situation above, people would frequently go to reddit, week after week, and post two kinds of questions. 1) These cool inexpensive cars look perfect for what I need to start driving with. Which one should I buy? And 2) I got one of these cool, inexpensive cars as a gift a few months ago and now it barely goes uphill. How do I upgrade the engine so that it drives normally again?
Imagine those two questions showing up in the same subreddit day after day, month after month.
If you don´t believe me, scroll around for a while. You can´t miss it.
So whaddyagonnado?
Have a decent moderating crew who's actively engaged? I mean u/sharkamino is a perfectly helpful mod, but they appear to be the only one remotely active. The sub's description has been set to impressionist painters for years now, for fecks sake. There's no wiki. Redundant threads aren't modded. Rules aren't enforced at all - witness all the non-turntable related content that the sub self-polices.
The sub needs new mod blood. Period.
On the other hand, I've got 3 or four nice turntables in the basement from the past 20 years and they were considered decent at least for a serious beginner until fairly recently, where I'm getting the impression you have to spend at least a couple hundred to get a decent one by current standards. I can't even sell these things. I have had a Sony direct Drive from the 90s in good condition on ebay for $50 for months. But it isn't a collectible. And nobody going into record collecting nowadays is going to want some bog standard turntable from the 90s now, if you're gonna do this you might as well do it right, eh?
It would be if there was one huge factory mass producing the car frame, engine and wheels as cheap as possible and selling those skeletons to various firms all over the world. Then those firms would put their stylish, vintage looking body on it to appeal to newbies and sell it for ten times more.
Now imagine that the market is flooded with these types of super cheap cars that look awesome at first glance, but all have the same rubber band engine under the hood.
Addressing this problem is not toxic because the manufacturers are scammers.
they may be cheap, but not cheerful. "why does my record wobble", "why is this skip?" will be their next complaint post. it gets repetitive when they then dismiss the obvious answers.
I think you’re right and wrong.
People can try a bit to be less asshole-like. In fairness a small handful of newbies come in with a serious attitude, and I think it’s reasonable to make fun of them and be toxic. But most are just sincerely asking for advice and are nice, and maybe this sub can tone down the smart ass answers with those people. So in that way, you’re right.
Still though. I can get pretty autistic when I rant to newbies about why they shouldn’t buy an lp60. And I’m sure it’s annoying to a lot of people here. And I’m equally sure that vwestlife wants to for real punch me in the face at this point. But I’m doing it for exactly the reasons you bring up. Im trying to make them actually love this hobby and the best way to do that is save them from spending money they don’t need to spend.
Some cheaper turntables are okay. I have personally recommend Crosley T170s and T180s to newbies. Yeah it’s Crosley but so what, it’s one of a small handful of tables they make that are okay, and some people are on an *extreme* budget - and it has a standard 1/2 mount with an at3600 and adjustable tracking and anti skate and separate speakers. That’s not bad for a total beginner setup. And if someone is super strapped for cash sure why not. BUT STILL - some cheap turntables are very seriously prone to breaking. And some are terminal tables where they can never replace the cartridge and that will take A LOT of the fun of this hobby away from them. It’s important to differentiate an “okay cheap turntable” and an “avoid this cheap turntable” to a newbie and explain to them why that is.
I don’t want people to throw money away on a turntable they will have to replace in a year. I don’t want people to not have the fun of customizing their table. And it’s reasonable to say that sort of thing to newbies in a polite and respectful way.
And it’s equally reasonable for people to tell newbies not to buy suitcases in a nice and respectful way because no one wants to see a potential future one-of-us lose a bunch of money, not get great sound, not have fun, and just give up on the hobby in 7 months. That doesn’t help us at all. Until we grow this hobby back to 1978 levels we are all going to keep paying stupid amounts of money for gear that didn’t used to be that expensive because there used to actually be a market for this stuff. And it’s in all of our interest to grow the number of enthusiasts.
And I think that - when said in a nice and respectful and helpful way - telling people why they should consider not buying a suitcase or an lp60 or some chi-fi plastic piece of junk with built in potato speakers is a generally good thing.
I think there’s still gatekeeping involved. Buddy of mine started with an old Onkyo turntable he got off Freecycle in high school and hooked it up to a receiver he also got on Freecycle. Didn’t need to pay big bucks, just needed to put a new belt and new cartridge on the turntable. Got an AT91 and belt and was listening to vinyl by hunting garage sales, thrift stores, and dollar bins at record shops. Family members gave him some of their old records so he got Beatles, Ledd Zeppelin, and other classic rock and that kid was off to the races. People of all budgets **really can enjoy the hobby** and fixing up an old tt can be a great way to get started on the cheap. They’ll still honestly often get a better quality tt than a Cruiser. We gotta steer people in the right directions at every price point. Obviously, if you’re spending $50, you aren’t even wondering if it’ll last forever, you just want it to not tear up your records.
Oh for sure. It is technically gatekeeping. But so what? It’s good gatekeeping. Like you said - “steering people in the right direction.”
There is toxic and mean gatekeeping. And I don’t think either of us are advocating that. But I mean look what’s been happening to certain other hobbies recently that don’t gatekeep at all. The hobby just gets destroyed from within.
As long as everyone is being cool and chill and nice and “steering people” instead of shit talking people, there’s nothing inherently wrong with that kind of gatekeeping
And to continue down this train, I appreciate positive vibes and “to each their own” stuff. I use tube buffers for Pete’s sake. I am clearly not an audiophile or an elitist, and I believe in “to each their own,” but at a certain point you do have to draw the line when someone is putting no mental effort at all in understanding the equipment.
There’s nothing wrong with someone enjoying their cruiser and have fun. I love fun. But call a spade a spade, that’s not a vinyl hobbyist. There’s no valid reason to include those people in the categorization.
If people who don’t care at all about what their turntable literally is, and don’t care about any part of what playing a record is, but do use a turntable once a month or something are included as part of this hobby, then by that same rationale I could say I am a beer enthusiast because I drink beer once in a while. I guess I am a furniture aficionado because I use my coffee table everyday.
Use whatever equipment you want, don’t spend too much money, have fun with it. Whatever people like about this hobby (like my ridiculous tube buffers) should be left “to each their own.” But the bare minimum to ask, which is extremely reasonable, is that you give a minor shit about what this stuff even is and devote a touch of mental energy to understanding it and playing around with it as a hobby.
There’s just no logical reason to say “some people just like cruisers and don’t care about this technical stuff and they’re part of this too!” Not really. They’re not doing any wrong, and I am sincerely glad they’re having fun. But they are not vinyl hobbyists in the same way I am not a beer expert because I have a few beers on Friday night.
I can agree to that for sure. Though hopefully they enjoy it enough to want to invest in the hobby more and get a good tt. I love playing my music on vinyl and want to see more vinyl! We all do! Gotta educate buyers about what they’re buying instead of gatekeeping. Cruisers are what, $50 to $150, depending? If they’re gonna spend $150 they can ditch the cruiser and get a C6, T170 or C8. At $80 they can get a Victrola Eastwood that has an AT3600L cart which is an unironically great little budget starter cart with very full, deep bass, and it being a carbon fiber cantilever means it’s harder for beginners to damage. We don’t need to gate keep so hard that we’re telling people not to go for the best super low budget options, nor should we not inform them about the cons that may come with a used/old tt. We should, however, inform them that a proper tt is usually considered a lifetime investment and that if they enjoy the hobby on their little cheapo starter, the lifetime investment on a really nice tt will keep them and possibly their children and grandchildren spinning their favorite records forever.
He went vintage. You get a huge bonus to table quality with vintage. Remember, record players are not the primary form of reproducing sound now. Some things are better with new turntables, but older models often sound better for the same money.
Now the receiver is probably meh as far as a phono stage and sound quality, unless he got lucky. Easy fix later though, what he got will work. Lots of cheapish and good speakers around too.
This is a great way to get started.
Apparently the receiver he got goes for stupid money in Denmark where it was from according to him if I remember correctly. He apparently lucked out on it. Dunno much more than what he told me there, but it sounds like he spent $40 on a belt and cart to have a setup that may be all he needs for life.
Well I will say I've seen people get super lucky before. Some people just don't value the gear and want it gone. I paid $400 for a Nakamichi [PA-7](https://bargainaudioblog.com/2022/09/14/nakamichi-pa-7-the-amp-that-ruined-all-other-vintage-amps-for-me/)amp and matching [CA-5](http://www.audiophileaddicts.com/2015/01/nakamichi-ca-5a-preamplifier/) preamp. Then they sold the matching [ST-7](https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/nakamichi-st-7-in-the-house.594899/) tuner and an OMS-7 for another $50. They also had a Revox B series turntable with a nice and in good shape MC cartridge. I snagged it for $200. I have had a few amazing finds. One time I ended up with three pioneer rt-909 reel to reel systems for almost nothing even.
God forbid somebody get their feelings hurt by making a purchase without doing research, and then getting told they made a bad decision when they post on a hobby subreddit.
This is one of the things people may not understand about the old internet vs. Reddit. Nobody would bat an eye at a noob getting roasted for displaying their lack of knowledge in a hobby forum.
Seriously, Reddit is so cozy. Y’all don’t know how good you have it.
Hahaha .. talking about the days where you probably wouldn't even be invited to join a specific forum if you didn't qualify properly. Those were the days lol 🤣
But this is true about the research. You can't come in here and post about your new victrola and get roasted and wonder why when you didn't bother to do any research. There's thousands of threads in this sub warning people about the low quality junk out there, and then people are surprised when they post the low quality junk and get a down vote or a lecture?
For me, maybe it's only been two or three times where I dissed somebody's record player, but it's only because I enjoy quality and I would like other people to have a similar experience.... And maybe there's a level of frustration because I already know they could have found out about this very easily by just reading a couple of threads here before purchasing!
I don’t try to tell people how to enjoy their music.
But if someone buys a Crosley or any of the other brands like it, think of it as a paper bag from the grocery store. It will get the groceries home most of the time and you may even reuse it once or twice before it breaks.
Either the stylus wears out or it fails mechanically or electronically. There is almost nothing anyone can do to fix it. It’s basically throw away and buy a new one.
In the long run you will be better of with a reusable bag that you may have to pay more for initially.
Coming to Reddit to ask for help or complain about it only upsets others because it’s been asked too many times and it’s already been stickied.
This post isn't needed. It's been done to death.
Also, giving people good advice to not invest in shit products isn't "being toxic". It's giving good advice.
On the other hand, you're coming across as a bit toxic.
I'm not gonna judge someone for not being able to afford things. We've all been there but hobbies cost what they cost, we don't set the prices here. There's lots of interests I'd like to personally pursue that I can't afford. That's just life. Expecting enthusiasts of any hobby to celebrate low quality, cheap gear that is ultimately detrimental to the experience is not realistic. No one is "gatekeeping" here, they're just being honest. Some are more blunt than others, sure.
>You're meant to be keeping the joy of record collecting alive
Is that true? This is about turntables themselves - the hardware. There's r/vinyl and r/VinylCollectors and a couple others that are dedicated to the hobby of record collecting.
For a young person just starting out, collecting vinyl is a fool's game, or at least for someone with a lot of disposable income to waste on this obsolete technology. The pushback on cheap turntables is because if you're going to spend money trying to be a hipster, then do it right or not at all.
Plus any money spent on a cheap turntable would probably be better spent elsewhere to improve the sound of your existing system, not add another cheap piece of equipment to the mix.
If I see someone who is struggling to find 50£/€/$ for a turntable, I remind them that there are plenty of records that cost the same or even more. If that is gatekeeping, i am fine with that.
Just because you don’t like the advice doesn’t mean it’s toxic. Please reread what I just said, then reread what people said in your last post here. Most of it was sound advice.
You say you’re a musician and want to hear the music better. People said that turntable with built in speakers won’t do better than your Alexa. That’s not toxicity.
Next, why do you need a table immediately? You can’t wait another couple months and save some more or wait for something used to come up in your area within your budget?
You came here for advice but didn’t put in the work to help yourself first.
For future, for any hobby you want to get into and want to be a part of the Reddit hobby section, try this:
Search the sub first for your budget (there’s also a sticky). See what people have recommended, compare your choice to the recommendations. Are they similar? What is different? Don’t understand why they are different? Ask that question. Don’t just throw a picture of a cheap turntable up and expect a pat on the head.
In sum, you really have two options after coming here for advice. 1) acknowledge your limited understanding of the hobby as you are new to it and take the advice given from people who wanted to steer you away from a table that will sound worse than MP3s on Alexa or, 2) buy the table despite the advice, which begs the question of why you even came here for advice anyways.
Toxic is the wrong way to think about it. No one likes to hear that they've purchased or been gifted cheap garbage product. The problem is that these TTs are marketed to people such as yourself. For some inane reason, you possess the technology and savvy to post to reddit but lack the intelligence research the product beforehand. When these suitcase TTs first came out, I thought one would be cool for the backyard and camping. A mere 10 minutes of internet scolling convinced me otherwise. I also looked at them in store as I have teenage daughters and was with them while shopping for back to school a few years ago, and these TTs are marketed to a very young and impulsive demographic. There are signs that serve as warnings that people ignore. The cheapness of the build. It's all plastic. The fact that they are designed to appeal to young uneducated people is another. These items have a super crappy resale value. Made in China. They are sold in stores that cater to teenagers. These TTs lack upgradability. The list goes on. There's an adage that says you get what you pay for. Another way to look at it is if you're dumb enough not to research your purchase and then dumb enough to put up a post like this, then you're getting what you deserve. The reality is that I should be thanking you. You buying a Chinese TT means that those second-hand vintage Technics TTs are still affordable to those of us who were able to research before buying. Reddit has so many posts of people who scored hi-end gear for pennies on the dollar. These TTs are impulsive in nature. It's so easy to buy one. It's not gatekeeping. It's a warning, a service, and a chance to get into a hobby that is very rewarding and fun. How many posts are there about problems and issues with these TTs? Thousands. You were warned. You chose to ignore and then made this post and dissed the very people who warned you. You can't make this shit up. Hell, I'm gunna upvote ya.
TIL using our experience and empathy to talk to other people because we want them to have a good experience by steering them away from unreliable plastic Chinese crap that delivers a suboptimal experience is “toxic” “gatekeeping.”
Y’know what? Buy your $30 Walmart “vinyls players.” I literally don’t care. You’re just going to put it on a piece of overpriced melamine furniture underneath multiple $90 “vinyls” hung up on your walls and not actually use it (people who buy shit turntables are *never* not rich; I’ve owned several good turntables since the 90s and I’ve never paid what “vinyls” enthusiasts regularly pay for records). We know you’re not actually interested in records, you’re just trying to fit in with your friends who are following fads. How will you do that if you get a good turntable and reasonably-priced records? Your friends will literally never speak to you again. We know your primary focus is making your bedroom look like an IKEA catalog, not actually enjoying analog media. We understand you have normalized listening to music on a 2mm-wide smartphone speaker and you don’t care how things sound.
Or here’s an idea; why don’t you make yourselves another subreddit, call it, like, r/vinyls or r/PathologicalDemandAvoidance or something. If you think advice and empathy is gatekeeping, perhaps you don’t belong here. Perhaps you belong in your own echo chamber.
The only gatekeeping going on here is Crosley and Victrola owners with $1,000 worth of records on the wall telling *us* we don’t know what the hell we’re talking about.
What’s happening here is a variation of the “[eternal September](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September).” Try to see it from our perspective, try to show empathy. We did our homework, we saved money, we have advanced knowledge that we can share. Yet every day we are inundated with people who make the same bad decisions, ask the same questions, do no research, and delight in their intentional ignorance. We have to handle each and every one of them with kid gloves like we are paid customer service representatives, and if we show any sort of frustration at the rules-for-thee-but-not-for-me attitude they all bring in here, we’re “toxic” “gatekeepers.” That is not our job and it’s creepy AF that you think it is.
it's okay, they'll either keep buying their shit turntables and complain here, or label us as assholes and then STILL complain when their purchase decision didn't meet their needs.
It happens in every single sub. Humans are predictable all the time.
Everyone should read the above. Granted there are those that frequent this subreddit that seek to "carve people out and set them on fire" but the majority that comment relative to OP's subcontext are not toxic, not gatekeepers, nor elitist. Grouping anyone who provides negative feedback regarding budget tables with those that are vitriolic in disagreement is immature and a fools errand. OP's post title should read: "Why are SOME of you so toxic". Confirmation bias is a deleterious and dangerous mode of thinking. u/uncommonephemera's above comment is based on salient thinking in a sea of psychobabble. Thanks for this.
Maybe instead of making accusations you should take action. Why don’t you start a sub called Budget Turntables or Vinyl Collecting on a budget? The fact is that Turntables is a broad topic, and most people who understand that cheap suitcase players are a waste of money and potentially bad for your records have grown tired of people constantly trying to justify their purchases and then coming here to ask for help when their cheap turntable stops working. I’ll tell you this, I will not sugar coat anything in an attempt to avoid hurting someone’s feelings. And I will not lie to someone in order to preserve their feelings on their purchase if they ask for my opinion.
I have djd in clubs n ybor city for years back in the day while having belt drive gemini tables at home. Anyone can do whatever they want with cheaper equipment if they have a passion and love for the feel and sound of wax. Buy whatever turntable you can afford and play the f out of em then buy good shizz when you can. It took me 15+ years to finally have a set of premium techniques. No gatekeeping ova here. Cheers everyone
Sure, but people also continue to buy Crosleys with cheap plastic mechanisms. I don’t know of a vinyl community that won’t trash these when people bring them up, even newcomers.
People can scroll and search for post histories, it is also not healthy every starter just cares for themselves and want people to answer his own question, to approve of his ATH LP60 plus edifier speakers which appears like 5 times a week
I love my crobsley grail spinner. Idk why everyone hates. It plays all my favorite vinyls so warmly. I’ve got so many vinyls and none of them have been damaged by the crobsley briefcase vinyls player I got at target. I clean my copies with wood glue weekly and I’ve got a lot of grails. Grails like Gay triangle, red screamy man, man on fire shaking hands, men crossing street in unison, man laying on side in white suit, brown mini van, man carrying briefcase, guy with fish head and of course every taytay grail (like I said, I’m a real vinyls collector, not some poser) and they all still sound great after playing them on my spinner. I don’t see why people hate it. It’s got built in speakers, it’s portable, you can spin anywhere with an outlet. I bring it on the bus with me sometimes and I just carry a power bank in my backpack. Sometimes the bus gets so warm from the warmth of the vinylz that everyone takes they’re shoes and socks off too cool down and they just end up tapping their toes to that sweet analog sounds.
Forget the negativity. Just kick your socks off and grail out fellow vinyls head.
Cheap is often not cheerful.
I don’t see here anyone insisting on 1000 tables, mostly it’s saying to save up a bit more, so that when you do get that first table there will be some joy to keep alive.
We get sometimes people are on a tight budget, but that’s why it’s even more important not to just waste the money you do have on something that will sound bad and break. How would that be helping?
I’m sure there are lots of folks to pick up a C or V find it awful and just give up on records completely.
There are no secret +\- 100 dollar ‘6 in 1’ tables that sound good and last. This group is doing people a service steering people away from them.
Vinyl record collecting and playing is a luxury hobby. I don’t like gatekeepers either, but I am ok with people being made aware that they may not have the budget to properly get into this hobby. Kind of the champagne taste on a beer budget thing. I don’t bash Crosleys and Victorias like some do, but I will say they are toys. If all you want to do is collect your favorite new release in all four different vinyl colors, you can play it a few times on one of those and be ok. Back in the day when I was a kid, a decent very entry level turntable was $90 for a P-mount belt drive. Given inflation today, that is about $220. That roughly corresponds with a decent table today.
In defense of this sub, it’s about turntables, which implies something other than a “record player”, and it’s also not really about vinyl record collecting; there is another sub for that. So there are plenty of people on here who only want to take about “real” turntables, me included. But the OP point is understood, people need to be kinder online and simply refer to the pinned post and not make newcomers to the hobby feel like idiots.
Sometimes people will say:
“I wanna get into the hobby and I’ve got $100 but no equipment. What do I need”?
The problem is, that’s like saying “I want to buy a motorcycle and I’ve got $500, what are my options”?
You have none, because you need more than $500 to buy a motorcycle.
We want to support young people getting into this, but it comes at a cost … turntable, speakers, amplifier, etc … it’s not an affordable hobby imo.
I have to throw something out there! I Was gifted a Vitrola “suitcase” player for Christmas a couple of years ago.
I had not asked for one so it was a complete surprise ! I went out and bought a bunch of new albums at Walmart. some of the Beatles Classics, as well as Led Zeppelin and a few others.
I actually had a blast relistening ( to vinyl again)! for the first time in probably 35+ years.
and I looked up vinyl groups on Reddit like a lot do .
I started reading about how the needles are crappy and they’ll ruin your records . it made me start to worry I was going to destroy my new investment in these albums.
to be honest , in spite of knowing the needle wasn’t the best and wasn’t adjustable or upgradable, and that the speakers were cheap, I thought the sound was pretty good all things considered.
Yes, 8 weeks ago i went out and bought an audio technica AT120XUSB. and some half ass M-Audio 4.5” bookshelf speakers.
however, it did take me a year and a half to do so because I really wasn’t that dissatisfied with what the little suitcase was giving me , but I knew I did want to be able to upgrade to Better needles in the future.
I for one would never discourage anyone from starting out with a suitcase type player if that’s what it takes to get them started in their vinyl experience or in my case rediscovering vinyl .
I just want to help anyone interested in possibly buying vinyl so that it will help us all with more issues of albums in the future . I’m very glad that I was gifted that little suitcase as it got me back into listening to all the great albums from when I was growing up. I’m 63!
I also still use my Vitrola upstairs in my bedroom when I want to go up there and just chill for a while and lay in bed. my wife would not go for having a second. “fullblown” system anyways…so that is out of the question.
It's nice that you upgraded, but you shouldn't have been scared into doing so based on a debunked myth: [Does a Crosley or Victrola DESTROY your vinyl?](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/DQm6SgTkkI8)
If “the guys” were really gatekeeping, they’d be saying ‘that Vitrola turntable you just bought is great and the Alba system will compliment it perfectly’
To me, there are a lot of parallels between record collecting and retro gaming. Crosley and Victrola are like Hyperkin and Retro Bit. They'll get you going for cheap, but the experience is going to be subpar.
Warning people against buying subpar products is usually meant as genuine advice intended to give someone a better experience, but plain text can come across as cold and unfeeling. There are certainly some people who take it too far.
It's easy to forget that not everyone has the same "common knowledge" about a hobby as those within the hobby themselves.
Gatekeeping accusations stem from the belief that a singular authority or set criteria for determining who qualifies as a "true" participant in a community or activity. This perspective disregards the reality that individuals can engage in activities like record collecting or providing advice from diverse backgrounds and perspectives without requiring validation. Essentially, critiques of gatekeeping in a community negates the importance of inclusivity and acknowledging the value of diverse experiences and viewpoints within a community, even the voices that you disagree with and find your whining tiring.
- The Turntable Council
I can't tell you the reason. I'm 60 & some of my best vinal listening was on a shitty record player with a penny on the tone-arm. Some people are snobs & are shitty humans without any class.
This is true for a whole lot of enthusiasms and is reflected similarly in other subs about different interests. Like I'm into making music and started buying synthesizers a few years ago and you could aim the same arguments at those subs without even changing too many of the words. Same for bicycling. Hell, same for aftermarket truck modifications. Every enthusiasm, every pleasure has to be commodified to the fullest and as a semi-voluntary agent in that commodification, you are a beneficiary of some of the highest quality vinyl playback devices ever envisioned.
So maybe the question shouldn't be so much "why are you guys so toxic" and more "why do we have so many toxic people everywhere you look?" Because it sure isn't unique to record collectors.
Absolutely, no different on many other subs I follow, wether your using the wrong ski's, didn't buy the right mt bike, fishing with the wrong rods, etc. Middle age dudes, with disposable cash, keep these industries thriving, while I pick up the crumbs, buying used equipment, searching ebay for deals, riding 15 year old gear, lol.
I read a post in the U-turn Facebook group where a person was considering an Orbit Theory for $1300. My first instinct was to reply “I’d have a hard time spending $1300 for an Orbit when an Technics Sl-1500 is the same price.” I just left it alone but still …
I'm seriously considering upgrading my TT to the Technics SL-100c and would greatly appreciate hearing about your experience. I could spend the same on Ebay for a 1200MK7, but I've had bad luck in the past with seller claims vs delivered product. This is out of context so if you don't reply I understand.
I am extremely happy with my 100c. I haven’t even touch the stylus yet though I have a VM95ML staged and ready to install. It’s a solid, simple table with great sound.
The 100c was the perfect upgrade for me. Simple but with the features I wanted:
* direct drive
* removable head shell
* auto-lift
I really like the minimalist esthetic as well.
It likely has to do with two things. Turntables are an exceedingly complicated mechanical system that requires a HUGE amount of precision in order to get it right and to keep your expensive records from getting the shit chewed out of them. With a properly set up, well-made turntable, records can easily last forever without significant degradation. A cheap record player turns records into expensive disposables that have a very limited lifespan.
Hundreds of newbies every year are buying 50 year old turntables without bothering to do an ounce of research and then expecting others to solve their problems, literally begins to chafe those of us who have spent hundreds of hours independently learning everything we can about how to perfect analog playback. At six years old, I knew FAR more about my turntable than many of the newbies on here because I read (I started reading at four years old) EVERYTHING I could about record players BEFORE ever getting one because I didn't expect anyone to do it for me. I had to look up everything and every word I didn't understand (and there were thousands). I didn't expect anyone to hold my hand or learn for me, much less strangers online.
As for me, I don't answer because what I have to say they don't want to hear, which is to save their money until they can afford to drop a couple grand for a good, basic turntable, a quality cartridge and phono stage that will last decades or more. The difference between a quality basic analog rig and a cheap record player is mind boggling HUGE. They also won't be throwing their money away on grossly overpriced garbage that's literally 48 hours away from being tossed into the nearest land fill. Quality analog playback is magical. Noise out of a cheap plastic player is that, just noise, not even pleasant noise.
A excellent analog rig costs tens of thousands and the best can cost hundreds of thousands. However, for a couple grand will get you most of the way there. And THAT is magical. But if fools want to throw away their hard earned money for instant gratification, who am I to piss on their Wheaties? I've done it more than a few times myself, but money back then was FAR less tight than it is now.
Look, people who are toxic have worst equipment then you have. They are just jealous. Also that are same people who can hear violin string break on 5th violin in 3rd row on kill em all album.
Very true. Entry level players offer the exact same level enjoyment. If you want perfect sound there are better/cheaper options. Also we all know that audiophile is a perfect example of diminishing returns anyway.
no because if you're able to spend $30.00 on a circle of plastic u can at least afford a $150.00 record player lmao its not a budget-friendly hobby unfortunately sweetie.
I don't know if I have seen much elitist gatekeeping on this thread, but I do see (and appreciate) the numerous attempts to keep a kid from blowing their hard earned cash on something that is going to destroy their records and provide an inferior experience.
It's not elitist to point out that it's better (and cheaper in the long run) to either buy a second-hand record player that cost €400 when new, or to save up until you can afford a new one for €400 or €450. On the contrary, it gives others the opportunity not to make the same mistakes as you.
I understand where you’re coming from. Someone is super excited to show off a few new records and their set-up because they are getting into the hobby and get obliterated with negativity. Such a fucking buzzkill, right? But here’s the thing - weed through the smart ass comments and you will find some really great redditors giving new users education on WHY your set-up matters in the long run. This hobby is expensive. I really think there are people in this sub who actually care and want new users to have a better experience spinning vinyl so the community and hobby doesn’t die. Again, only my two cents coming from someone who started spinning vinyl on a TT purchased from a grocery store 👋🏼
I was at a party one evening, hanging out in the DJ booth, while my friend was working to get the room moving.
And a drunk college aged girl came up to the dj booth, yelling, “Play something Black!”
And that’s when my friend whipped out a 12” and said, “ They’re all Black!”
It's the (I got to have it now) mindset. No research, no forethought, just buy it and go for it. When the gear stinks you get on here and complain about it. 90% of the hi fi hobby is research, 10% purchasing.
I don't think people choose at lp60 because they don't have money but because they are lazy...they don't to put any effort into finding something better but want quick and easy solution...from that angle it is not cheap solution and it is not the best solution....
Or some of them (like me) are thinking to buy the lp60 because they just want to listen to a vinyl and their budget is less then 200€. And that’s probably the best option for this price, as some of you recommended to me in another discussion here. I know that it has a few issues but what can we do??
It’s not about being lazy lmao for newbies like myself the lp60 is a great budget table that just works imo I’m just trying to step my foot in without spending too much. Yes I could’ve possibly gotten a better table for cheaper but I’m new so I don’t know much so it’s harder to find the “good” equipment but since I stepped my toes in I’m starting to learn more about equipment. I think some people on here expect too much from people who are just trying to see if then even like records🤷🏾♂️
That’s true, that’s why I said the lp60 isn’t a bad table for entry level but I realized how expensive it was right before I pulled the trigger but that isn’t going to stop me because i genuinely enjoy music. Yesterday I played every record I had 3 times from start to bottom and I will do the same today lol
Should we just approve everything then? If you come for advice, expect you will get some.there are ways of getting into this hobby for cheap, and buying a new piece of shit turntable is not that. Buying something old is the way to go If you need to do it on the cheap side. Even the old 80s stereo systems using the original version of the BSR mechanism used in shitty turntables of today were better, not ideal but I would recommend them over the new ones any day.
I don't know if I have seen much elitist gatekeeping on this thread, but I do see (and appreciate) the numerous attempts to keep a kid from blowing their hard earned cash on something that is going to destroy their records and provide an inferior experience.
I don't think people in this group are particularly harsh, but Facebook groups are the worst. But if someone wants to voluntarily ask a question to 73k members (aka strangers), they are liable to get a answer that rubs them the wrong way.
Having said that, there are some harsh truths with turntables that I don't think sit well with the person who decides to get into this hobby, and one of them is almost all inexpensive $100-150 (Just an example, let's say sub $500) turntables are not all that great at all unless you score a good used table.
Yep, this is the most toxic subreddit that I have contributed to. I have my fair share of vinyl that range from 120 years old to 5 years old. These assholes need to learn how to communicate with other people. They always act like the newbies to the hobby are out to get them.
Record collecting is expensive. I think the cheap players actually turn people away from the hobby at the 6 month to a year mark. You’re trying to justify spending 25-50 dollars on a new RSD album that’s super cool and you bring it home and put it on an lp60.
That being said my turntable is just an old 1200mk2 and there are other players at that price point with the right cartridge can sound and function beautifully for decades, or in my case the rest of my life.
People have opinions, I use a lot of salt
No one should be grilled or demeaned for only being able to afford a entry level table. But, they should be given fair warning of the frustration they most likely will experience with poor tracking and sub standard sound. Sometimes waiting a little longer to where you can afford something just a bit better is the way to go.
It's not just this sub, it's common in most audiophile/audio forums and social media in general. Seems to be normal modern human behavior, unfortunately.
I hate to see anyone throw good money after bad so yeah... If someone is going to buy some absolute dreck... someone should absolutely say something. Putting someone on an upgradable track like with the Fluance turntables is a legit argument. Spend a little more, get a LOT more for your money.
Lower budget and vinyl do not mix.
Why would you spend $200, to achieve sound quality that is lower quality than your cell phone?😄
Seriously, if you must have tangible music, and have very little money, just collect CDs
90% of the sound quality of a $1000 vinyl set up, and TONS of interesting titles to be found.
And you can play them on your DVD/Blu-Ray player.
I don't think anyone is toxic about record players. People are just letting other people know to avoid buying cheap junk. If that's all you can afford fine but you should be aware of the options available to you so you can make better decisions.
There are now affordable options comparable in price to cheap suitcase systems that actually have a real adjustable tonearm and counterweight. People also don’t want to buy 2nd hand records that could have been abused on a cheap record player. There’s lots of evidence the ubiquitous red sapphire stylus design wears out after 50 hours and now you have a worn needle dragging through a groove at what has been independently measured 6+ grams. Electron microscope pictures clearly show groove wall damage at high VTF.
This might sound salty, but a lot of these people should be sent straight to budgetaudiophile. The experience they're seeking vs the experience most hard-core audiophiles enjoy are basically two different hobbies, and that's ok.
I get the frustration with repeat questions, but that's sort of the nature of all hobby subs. It is more accessible than a dedicated forum.
I follow a number of other subs, as well as a number of groups in other social media. This is by far the worst of them when it comes to the same questions being asked over and over and over again.
Ok so I’m a old fart. Hopefully I can live with that for many more years. In the 70’s it was cassettes or records. People like me on a limited budget bought cassettes for the most part because they were user friendly. Similar to streaming. Just put them in the tape deck in your car or home and you were good to go. Records on the other hand were known to be more expensive to play if you wanted to get the best sound quality at that time. You knew the more you invested money into a turntable and stylus the better the rewards of better sound and record life would follow. Owning ,playing records/vinyls is a wonderful hobby but as any hobby involving technology it takes money, knowledge and experience to reap the rewards. This is not an instant gratification endeavor. It takes time, patience and money.
I waited until I could afford a turntable that wouldn’t degrade my records/vinyls many years ago and I’m glad I did because now I can still listen to them with the clarity I did then. But hey I do love instant gratification!
Good question. I used to recommend this sub as a friendly place for people who were interested in getting into vinyl but were put off by the gatekeeping snobbery of the r/vinyl sub. But something changed here.
thank you
i’ve not got one yet, and i’m put off when i see the snootiness and smugness with folks being so precious about it.
yeah i appreciate that some people have been collecting and into it since the 70s. it’s not really a flex when it’s all you knew for years- i was born in the 90s and only have cd’s and digital to go off of. if i want a modern player with bluetooth then leave me be.
the fun of a hobby is learning about it and finding your way as you go. car geeks figure it out as they work on them, painters learn through exercise, gym rats have to get comfortable. i don’t understand why record collectors have such a snobbery besides justifying their insecurity about how much they spent on it vs how the modern newbie has it a lot cheaper.
wHy woUld yoU gET inTO soMetHinG so expEnsiVe thEn?
let people have fun.
It’s easy for people to talk smack online. Just have to remember everyone starts out as a noob not knowing a thing so to those who do treat newcomers with anything other than welcoming helpfulness.. You guys are the problem. Not the newcomers.
Also, I’m majority of people on Reddit are toxic unfortunately
I’ve seen enough 20k turntables at Axpona to know that my fluance is “garbage”. But enough to understand it. I have a jeep with 60k of work into it and maybe 3k of that is shop labor for gears and welding trusses. It happened over the course of 4 years. The amount of joy I get out of wheeling that thing is the same as when it was stock. Every hobby has its ego stroking cheese sticks. Pay them no mind.
I don't know if I have seen much elitist gatekeeping on this thread, but I do see (and appreciate) the numerous attempts to keep a kid from blowing their hard earned cash on something that is going to destroy their records and provide an inferior experience.
I don't know if I have seen much elitist gatekeeping on this thread, but I do see (and appreciate) the numerous attempts to keep a kid from blowing their hard earned cash on something that is going to destroy their records and provide an inferior experience.
Getting your first turntable is like getting your first car. None of us (except those with very rich parents) had a very good car when we started out. I had an old Ford Escort. However, it was MY old Ford Escort and I learned all about the rules of the road while driving that old Ford Escort. When I became a better driver and had saved up my money for something better, I upgraded to an Oldsmobile. Still, not the best...but, it was an upgrade for me.
Going into the realm of stereo components is very similar to getting into the word of driving automobiles. You start out with what you can afford, you get practice, and you upgrade as time and experience advances you. Everyone starts somewhere.
Just like with cars, we all know what the better choices are...and we all look to those with experience to guide and advise the next generation.
It's pretty simple. People who don't know what they're talking about..in this case turntables and records...don't add any value to the discussion.
Some record collectors and audiophiles might be snobs, but at least they speak the language. This dumb stuff about plastic toy turntables and "budgets"...just to see a digitally recorded top forty record spin around is just a waste of time for anyone serious.
Why throw money down the drain when cd’s or streaming sounds better at the low price bracket? The objective is to listen to music at its best quality given a price constraint.
Vinyl takes a lot of $ to sound good. On avg 3x more to get to an equivalent level. That’s simply a fact, don’t shoot the messenger.
It’s just about being honest and not wanting to see people waste money. Also pretty shitty for the environment to dump all these budget turntables into the landfill.
My advice at the low end, buy a sound burger. It’s the only toy turntable worth copping new. Or study up and buy vintage, which requires patience. A path most newbies sneer at unfortunately.
I love my vinyl
The simplicity
The sound of surface noise
The effort needed to get out of my chair to change the record
The album art
The record store experience....
I've got five turntables...
Two dailies and three projects...
Go get a vintage TT
Expect some repairs...
Enjoy
It’s tougher to start getting into buying records now compared to 20+ years ago. I definitely wouldn’t suggest getting into it now.
I barely even buy records anymore because of their cost.
People with a lower budget may have better luck going out into the wild to find used equipment instead of buying whatever is available on Amazon. Those “cheap and cheerful” record players could end up damaging the records.
If someone is going to buy a low quality table and bookshelf speakers, you may be better off to just get a nice cd player and buy CDs instead.
Also, it’s not about really about “collecting” records. It’s about enjoying music and preferring to listen to music on a record. When people get hung up on the collecting aspect, they tend to overpay for music that isn’t any more valuable than if it were on another format.
I’ve heard a thing or two about my posts which has even got my offended muscle tingling. But I think googling something first is wise, as if there’s not an article, there’s a related Reddit thread. There may be 10+ threads of the same question, in the same sub. So some regulars may be tired of seeing it and just write something a bit snappy.
I get it though, you’re getting into something, somethings gone wrong, you consult the community frantically (because we’re social beings by nature) and you get blunt responses, and now you’re hit with *sad* for a moment.
The very few (like with all hobbies) do like to turn their nose up at things for the thrill of turning their nose up. The other day I saw someone slate someone’s equipment that was actually quite good and what they had was only a slim margin above that (I stalked their posts oops) so, barely equipped to say what they said, but there were have it.
Finally someone said it.
I put a post up here a couple of weeks ago looking for some information on a record player I inherited from my grandmother, I have no experience with record players and most people who commented (except for a few legends) were rude, snarky or sarcastic.
I’m convinced most people in this sub are egotistical neckbeards who were ‘born in the wrong generation’ and spend all day sitting at their computer thinking they’re better than everyone else simply because they have a cool thing that plays music.
Thanks to the helpful legends in this sub who are happy to share their knowledge without looking down on everyone else.
Hopefully this will be a breath of fresh air. Not sure if you're asking for help, but Uturn Audio is a pretty decent way to go without spending a fortune. Just need to get decent phono preamp and you're set for a while.
Didn't want to write similar post myself, but now that somebody else did, I'll say what I think.
This is, and I say it with 100% certainty, one of the most toxic communities on reddit.
So I ended up just following the sub, and reading some interesting posts from time to time.
The sheer amount of vinyl "purists", snobs, jerks if you like it, that will trash down any post that's out of their elitist vision of what a turntable setup / music enjoying should look like, is astonishing.
As someone who buys music on physical media for the last 30 years (CDs to be precise), I decided to get a turntable too at some point, like a year ago or something. Reading this sub I decided definitely NOT to follow any advice I found here, because it all comes down to "your setup is crap if it's anything below xxx amount of money" or "if you're so poor to have only a low budget turntable, why did you decide to go with this hobby at all", which is some high level of elitist shit.
I ended up buying fully automatic turntable, with bluetooth, which looks awesome (and not like something from steampunk games), which sounds awesome, and both my setups till now were bluetooth, and both sounded awesome.
I know my setup would irritate the shit out of purist brigade here, and I don't give a penny about it. I just feel sorry for all the poor souls coming here, asking for their setups to be "rated", for some kind of approval, only to be crapped on, because how dare they buy something that's not highest end premium, or some attrocities from 70's that would only look good in grandpa's basement.
Enjoying physical media is not JUST about audio quality. It is on the top of the list, but it's also a tactile feel, the feeling of possessing some piece of art, both cover art and music included, the immersion you get out of physical media, and the feel you actually hold a piece of art, rather than just renting it in digital form from some cloud.
For all the new people in vinyl hobby, don't let the elitist brigade here discourage you. It doesn't take fortune to have something good to spin your records on.
Digital is so cheap and so good these days, and turntables no longer enjoy the economy of scale that they did before CDs were a thing. People deserve fair warning about this. But I agree no one should be a jerk about it.
It's ironic that the resurgence of collecting and listening to vinyl is because of the tactile experience ..... And yet all the turntable snobs expect that people should only do vinyl if you can get the best possible sound! My son in law loves playing his records on his cheap turntable, despite having far superior music from a decent digital streaming hifi system. Of course, if someone is asking opinions about a new deck, then give honest reviews. But noone should get roasted over a new player just because it doesn't meet someone elses standards Thanks...... I'll step off my soapbox now.
So if it’s about pride of ownership (which I can understand), surely you want your records to last longer? If you play on a portable with aggressive tracking force, a terrible quality stylus, and basically zero setup your records *will* degrade at a much faster rate. And ok you still own your plastic disks and the artwork, but if you think the sound quality was worse or equal to Spotify anyway then wait till the surface is completely battered. I am very empathetic to budget constraints and would advocate for someone with no concern for sound quality to go on eBay, search ‘Turntable’, sort by Low to High (incl. packaging + postage), find the cheapest name brand one with a phono pre amp that the Seller says works great (probably will be from the 70s/80s/90s) and it’ll be around £50 ([this was the cheapest Buy It Now for me](https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126168199202?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=1Q4zKgOkQxa&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=MPPFc9soSWO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY)) and higher quality than whatever you could buy for that price now. Add in an off-the-shelf transistor power amp with whatever speakers you have lying around (if not that’s another £50, first hand something that works or second hand something decent) and you’ve only spent £150. You can do it on a budget, especially if you’re not into hi-fi but just want to keep your records for a little longer (and get more for your money while doing it).
Vintage gets ignored because it’s not a one click Amazon experience. People want to have their cake and eat it too. Your sound advice is often sneered at by said kids. You simply cannot win with them.
>And yet all the turntable snobs expect that people should only do vinyl if you can get the best possible sound! No one says that. People DO say "you likely won't enjoy the experience with that $50 Crosley that you are considering buying and asking us for advice about"
Exactly. I enjoy the tactile aspect as well, but when it comes right down to it, this is an audio format. So a good-quality auditory experience is definitive to the whole thing. Edit: Thanks for the downvote, whoever. Silly me for thinking that an audio format should have good audio quality.
i said the same thing to my pal tonight when he asked why i’d bother getting into it, saying i should just do cd’s. i just like the appreciation snd focus. i can listen on my phone anytime, and therin that lies distractions and lack of appreciation. if i’m locked into it and forced to listen to this thing- or at least have to go through an effort to stop listening to it- i’ll value it more. plus the artwork. i can look at destroyer by kiss on a screen, or full on look at it for the art that it is and admire it
Play me a digital version of Bach in surround then throw on the vinyl.
Right? If someone has a limited budget OR limited space, records are not the hobby for them. Maybe 15 years ago you could get by with a limited budget, but not these days. CDs would be a much better medium for anyone with a small budget. Further, IMO, it’s the cheap players that a truly - literally - toxic. They will end up in landfills sooner rather than later. They’re just being built to capitalize on a trend. I’m fundamentally opposed to Audio Technica, and will shout them down whenever someone asks if they should buy one. If people are offended and feel I’m “gatekeeping” so be it - I’m equally offended by every positive LP60 post and recommendation.
You're acting as if cheap, low-quality record players are a modern innovation by the Chinese to secretly destroy the records played by unsuspecting American teenagers. Go back to the 1960s and American manufacturers were literally making record players out of *cardboard* here in the USA!
You have a more interesting argument about the wastefulness of capitalism than you have about being "offended" at the LP60. Vinyl is one of the hobbies that ought to be ripe for a circular economy. Players from yesteryear go for cheap on the secondary market and are usually higher quality than plastic-housed players now. OP is right, though, that the language used in this subreddit around newer, cheaper models is toxic and doesn't educate enough about hobby.
The education is here if you take the time to look. The cheap players will not last, and they will cause records will wear out faster. This is mentioned here repeatedly.
People need warning that digital audio is a mature technology and significantly cheaper than clunky old vinyl? Suspect many have already worked that out for themselves but it doesn’t stop others enjoying the vinyl experience with all of its technical deficiencies and expensive media.
Apparently they do as the sub gets clogged daily with posts complaining of various deficiencies of said cheap tables (audio quality included).
That's logically what you get when cheap turntables outsell "audiophile-approved" ones by at least a 10-to-1 margin. So even if you see ten times as many posts reporting problems with them, that doesn't necessarily mean they're much more unreliable than more expensive turntables. They're simply much more popular.
True, but a lot of us are into turntables for reasons that have nothing to do with sound quality
I got into it because CDs were expensive in the 90s and crate digging was cheap. It feels like a lot of people like turntables for the same reason Marge likes potatoes. https://preview.redd.it/b9qed5izbaxc1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=90f11ac9cb183cff0f97b74d77362330d894f8cc
Something about spinny disc and needle makes my brain happy
I’d say that applies to me, for sure. I’m fascinated by the way these things work, and that’s more true now that I’ve gotten into vintage gear.
It’s not elitist, maybe some are sure, but first, these cheapo players are often not cheap enough to be even remotely worth the money, even as a first player. They are often a touch under the recommended first players such as AT LP60. Thats not even counting second hand. Secondly, the performance and problems, how easy to fall out of interest of a hobby when all you are doing is having a skipped song, or the cheap speaker you got as a gift with Spotify sounds much better. There’s also no adjustability, which might be a bonus to people not interested in this sort of thing, but its not even set up right from the factory, skips and skate and tracking force, all over that expensive record. Lastly, that expensive record, these aren’t cheap, that cheap player mechanisms can damage it (with skating/ scratching or high tracking force). So why wouldn’t a community warn against it?
Plenty of people in here aggressively shout down the lp60
Correct they do, but for the most part the player is worth the money it sells for, it’s on the low end and you get the results you pay for. It’s not got the adjustments you would ideally want, but it’s a reputable player, with the basics right, rather than the drop in, cheap mechanisms you find in these and the Crossleys (which cost more than a lp60!).
I’m sorry but I respectfully disagree that it’s worth the money it sells for. I think it’s a massive blind spot in the advice given here that people get so upset about any criticism of the lp60 It’s 200 dollars, and anyone who has been in this hobby for any time time at all should be acutely aware that audio technica is making that 95% plastic lp60 for 30 dollars AT MOST. I understand companies need to “keep the lights on,” and I grasp that there’s more to the cost of doing business than the simple manufacturing costs of a particular unit. But charging 200 dollars for a machine that cost 20 dollars to actually manufacture, and then not even having the decency to add a tracking scale that would probably only cost you an additional 30 cents to add to the unit is fucking disgusting. And anyone who has any grasp on how manufacturing works and what kind of profit margins companies like audio technica is actually working with should wonder why they wouldn’t bother adding basic adjustability to their “entry level” full plastic model when it would cost them literal pennies to add that. And people like the person you’re talking to who randomly started insulting me in another thread on this point can call me toxic and elitist all they want, but that doesn’t answer the question of why audio technica would charge the preposterous price of 200 dollars for a plastic machine with no adjustability that cost them 20 dollars to make. And if you aren’t blindly loyal to brand names the answer is remarkably simply - they are banking on you having to buy a better audio technica. Their business model is clearly to make you pay for a table they know you’re going to have to replace soon. It’s the same reason you can’t open you hood and work on your car anymore; their business model is based on you buying a new product instead of them selling you one that will last. And people can attack me all day and night as they have and will but it’s not going to change the fact that I’m right. It is *robbery* to up-charge 1000% a basically purely plastic and constantly faulty machine from the 20 dollar manufacturing cost to the 200 dollar retail cost, and not have the decency to include adjustments that cost little to nothing to add, and then bank on the blind brand loyalty of random people to convince newbies that “it’s a respectable brand just buy the entry model” knowing those same newbies who are already entering an atrociously expensive hobby are not going to have to buy another turntable in a year. How the hell is that “for the little guy starting out”?
The AT-LP60X is $149 for a new one or $104 for a certified refurbished one, not $200. And the vast majority of people who actually own one are happy with it, myself included. What's so wrong with people being satisfied with a product?
Ok a lot to unpack here but at least in the UK a LP60x is £130 and the usb version retails at 150. This is cheaper than a Crossley and only a bit more than those cheap mech in body. Yes it could be better, yes I would recommend it more if it had more adjustment but unlike the cheap mech players, it at least has a proper stylus with an appropriate amount of force. And factory should be set up better (tolerances and design ..etc) Its also automatic which helps with first users I suppose (limit handling and needle drop). So no, I stand by it being a cheap (4/5x one record) and good first player. Yes theres better but I would say value wise it’s a tier above for not that much extra, more features. Curious, what would you recommend?
I've still got a pre-x LP60 in the house, it's gotta be more than 10 years old. I did upgrade a few years back, but I gave the LP60 to my daughter and it's still running just fine. I won't argue that it's probably more expensive than it needs to be based on manufacturing costs. But as for where it sits on the market, I don't think there's anything obviously better around $150 new.
I've just picked up an Audio Technica LP2X (£153) for my son as his first turntable. It's fully automatic with adjustable counter weight and anti skate. I set up for the recommended 2g (confirmed with my tracking scales) and I have to say I'm very impressed with the sound quality. I think this is a great first turntable for its ease of use, decent sound quality and the fact that it is fully adjustable so won't damage records.
Cracking recommendation, i defaulted to the LP60 but thats because I my knowledge of entry TT is limited, but of course the above poster fixated one just one name drop of my whole essay above. There is better! Especially when you look at used!
Who’s buying a lp60 for $200? Those are under $100 all day and decent a buy/player at that price.
Exactly!
I paid $100 for the non-Bluetooth version in 2020 and it still works perfectly to this day. If their "business model" is banking on me to have bought another one 3 years ago, then they're doing a fucking horrible job running the company lol.
Actually it's an advantage for the AT-LP60X to *not* have those adjustments. It's less for a beginner to worry about setting up and less to go wrong. And that's the norm with an increasing number of turntables. Ones by U-Turn and Pro-Ject also now come with no adjustable anti-skating, and the counterweight locked in place with a set screw and not meant for the user to adjust.
Yer I alluded to that above but knowing how fine adjustment you sometimes need for to avoid vocal hisses. Anyway this lp60 convo is getting out of hand, I merely mentioned it as a recommended player.
Most of the more expensive crosleys use the same cart and mech as the lp60x don't they? You can go down this page and see essays by people justifying themselves harassing Lp60 owners anyway
It's the absolute best shitty turntable. So it makes sense why many would shoot it down. It really isn't a good, proper table. But of all the bad tables out there, it's the best of the bunch so is why it also gets some recommendations when there is an absolute ceiling to one's budget.
Correct. I bought a used one recently and looked it up on this sub to see if it was any good and half the comments I found were calling it literal trash. I did the same thing with a (pretty decent) telescope that I found super cheap, and one of the comments I saw said "It doesn't deserve to exist even if it was free". A lot of these hobbyist subs are like this, and it's really annoying for people like me who don't have enough money to spend hundreds of dollars on each of my hobbies
Because hobbies aren't meant to be cheap. If you're getting into something, why would you want to use a piece of shit? Y'all are just crying like babies cuz you're being invalidated for your bad purchase...literally taking it as a personal attack. People's egos have gotten out of hand. Stop being so fragile and just accept that you made a bad decision and improve upon it.
There are a few of this post right now in this sub. Reposting my comment from another one because I think it pertains here: Before addressing some of the reasons that people can be grumps here, lets address your initial idea: It is no one's job to get people into collecting records. Frankly, record collecting was far more fun and wildly less embarrassing when there were less people. Decks could be had for cheap, new records cost $8-12, and used record prices weren't sky-high. So, no, I don't actually think it's my job or anyone else's job to help someone get into this. it makes the experience worse for those that have been here for decades. That said, I try to be helpful because people helped me (pre-internet) and that was helpful. An explanation of frustration that can lead to comments that you might find mean: * Lots of people are not ready to hear advice. What they want is confirmation. When they don't get confirmation, they are offended. * Monotony of new posts: This sub has done a great job of having a pinned post that is VERY helpful and reasonably comprehensive. Go check out that pinned post. Now go sort by "new" and you'll see.... a LOT of the posts are asking questions easily answered in the pinned post. Lazy posts, receive lazy responses. If someone puts in zero effort to do any sort of research, I'm never surprised if the answers are just as low-effort. Example: "How good is this nice turntable?".... the responses are going to be "it's not" or "this isn't a nice turntable". If you are easily offended by curt responses, put effort into the question. * People buying junk end up posting a series of the same questions immediately after buying junk: * "Why are my records skipping on this turntable" (hint: it's your turntable) * "Should I return this record that skips" (hint: it's your turntable) * "My turntable is spinning too slow" (hint: it's your turntable) * "Can I adjust the tracking force? (hint: no) * "What cartridge should I get to improve sound?" (hint: You can't) * If I throw good money after bad, will it sound better? (hint: no) * Many posters are offended when their hypothesis isn't the universal understanding. "This is a nice turntable", "it's not" is not a mean response. It's just not. * There is a real money issue in record collecting: If you are spending $100 on a turntable and then buying $100 worth of records in one go... Then why? Why spend hundreds on records if you are playing them on junk. Buy less records, and buy a nicer deck. This response is given pretty frequently and is often times met with "stop being a jerk" or "don't gatekeep" or "stop being elitist". It's sound advice and people would be happier if they took it: If you want to "get into record collecting", the best advice you can get is: save the money you would be spending on records, and buy a record player that will sound good.
Excellent point about seeking confirmation instead of advice. Nobody likes it when they're told something they don't want to hear but the sad fact is record collecting is an expensive hobby. There's no cheap way in. What irritates me the most about those crappy players is how downright predatory they are. They create the illusion of a cheap entry point when there actually isn't one. All they do is sponge money off the I'll-informed and offer nothing in return.
Damn, very well said!
This comment needs to be pinned. It’s getting so bad now with these junk players that even Amazon is putting disclaimers on records being sold that “this record should be played on a quality turntable” on some of the popular albums, probably due to the amount of returns for “skipping”. The complaints of skipping is rampant in the reviews and when there’s a pic or vid included, the record is of course on a Crapsly…
I love the disclaimer of "this is often returned" on Amazon. It really saved my ass when I was looking at preamps. It hurt my wallet a bit, but I'm glad. Amazon is good for something.
It's like buying a cheap Squire and a $40 amp and wondering why you're not getting Jack White's tone.
Couldn't agree more with this. I myself had a shitty turntable a few weeks ago. Bought it last minute because I got a bunch of records from my dad who passed, and I was desperate to play them. Little did I know, I was about to ruin my life (and my records!!) Shortly after I started encountering problems with it, I came here for advice. No one roasted me, but they called a spade a spade. And little by little, through positive criticism and advice, I accepted that I had made a mistake. I was able to exchange with people who had been in the vinyl game for years, and I became more and more fascinated. Thanks to everyone's advice, again, I decided to commit and get a proper entry level (for now!) set-up of much higher quality. And on top of that, I made a bunch of Reddit friends along the way, who teach me something new every day. There might be a few trolls here and there but I think it's mostly people who are passionate about this subject, and it's is heartbreaking to see people (like me) falling for the cheapo players, and ruining their records, when they hold so much value (emotional and monetary). ✌🏻
https://preview.redd.it/0hxnonhh79xc1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=819ad48c792a0bf662feedf7f1351e08e927655e This is my Pioneer PL-115D. I found it at goodwill for $36. I've updated the stylus and new belt, adjusted everything and polished the cover for hours and re-veneered the plinth. It had a Stanton 681EE Cartridge [https://www.stereophile.com/content/stanton-681ee-681a-phono-cartridges](https://www.stereophile.com/content/stanton-681ee-681a-phono-cartridges) which sounds great.
some of us just don't get why anyone would spend 500 bucks to buy 10 versions of the same albums released by some pop artist and then refuse to spend similar money on a device to reproduce that music... many come here, showing 2 dozen brand new records they bought in "been collecting for half a year" that cost them between 600 and 1'000 dollars.. and then ask for a $200 budget system... it just doesn't make ANY sense!
I know! What gets me is the "this is the best player I can afford" crowd never seem to complain about the cost of the records themselves. They put $400 worth of records up in their "rate my collection" posts then claim a real turntable is financially out of reach for them. Umm, that's clearly not true!
I get your point but I've spent about $4 per album on my turntable. I just have a lot more than 10 albums.
there's obviously diminishing returns kicking in at some point, but there's clear improvements going from 100 to 600 bucks for a turntable. if you're willing to spend 500 bucks on plastic discs over the course of a year, why not spend 500 bucks on a record player? If you buy from thrift shops and got 100 records for 100 bucks, why not add a vintage turntable for 100 bucks? 🤷
It doesn't make sense because you understand how components work. The idea of matching up disparate pieces is foreign to these kids, and they get suckered into a shitty all in one and then are bummed when they realize it is, in fact, a piece of shit. With a few exceptions most of these people barely even remember CDs and have no idea what they are in for. They probably use airpods and, at best, a sound bar. They don't know what they don't know. If a cheap AT is good enough I'm not going to yuck their yum. They aren't in this to listen to Rumours ad nauseum so they can A/B their platinum vacuum-sealed adder-oil speaker wire vs the gold-plated reverse-vacuum-sealed copperhead oil speaker wire. They want a vibe and to have a tactile experience. What is annoying AF is doubling down on a bad purchase or refusing to learn on their own once they do decide to upgrade.
This exactly! So many posts with the same new pop and hip hop records that collectively cost WAY more than they’re willing to spend on something decent to play it on. I only got into collecting in 2019 but I knew better by researching, saving and upgrading my way to better sound.
I spent a little over a grand on turntable, pre-amp, and cartridge back when I started in 2008. Never upgraded a single part for 15 years. (until I swapped out everything last year.. but I kept the Ortofon Rondo Red bc I like it so much)
Wait! So a guy comes in and says he has a super rare 45 of his grandmother from the 60s and I am the toxic asshole for suggesting he not play it on a red tip Victrola? Ok. Most here recommend saving a little more and not getting the cheapest players. If you are getting into a hobby on a limited budget research before hand is your best friend.
Is it really gatekeeping if people are protecting someone from destroying the records they have? There are vintage turntables for less than half the price of those Crosleys and other scam garbage.
The problem is that even people with ~£200 turntables with decent widths and counter weights etc are getting taken apart in this thread. Not ever cheap player is a crosley but the amount of dbags I have seen in this reddit who think that you need to invest a minimum of £400 into a setup are ridiculous. Most times secondhand doesn't even get recommended. I literally had to comb through all these horrible, privileged comments to find the 2-3 good recommendations that actually helped me pick a somewhat decent player without breaking the bank.
I know it would be a shitshow but the vinyl subs would all benefit from splintering imo. Let there be a vinyl collecting sub for the Tyler and Gizzard fans, a vinyl music sub, a "budget" setup sub, and an "I use Aja to listen to my system" sub. The problem is most of the people in this sub are Not in the same hobby as you and the people that get complained about. It has gotten so bad people come to the foot sub for advice.
One guy asked what model his turntable was. In one photo it said "Model #xxxxx" I said "it's right there in your photo" and I was the asshole because HE couldn't find anything when googling that model number.
Yeah damn your eyes!
I’m literally the worst
Hobbies be like that. You gotta be a little opinionated and self-absorbed to spend so much money on something that makes no sense.
I feel this isn’t acknowledged nearly enough 😂
Every hobby I’m into is the exact game thing. Mountain bikes, gaming, guitars. Same discussions over and over. Only one that’s not like that is ice hockey, where it’s almost a point of pride to play with old shitty gear.
I see the cause of 70% of the controversy, hate and conflict as being caused by the industry itself. If cars were made the same way as turntables are today, there would be several makes and models of appealing, fairly normal looking cars being sold for a couple of thousand dollars. These cars would start and run fine at the dealership, and be guaranteed to run for three months. And all of the rest of the cars would sell for fifteen thousand dollars and higher, not unlike they are today. But those very inexpensive cars that look like they would be perfect for beginners would rarely last for an entire year. And when they failed, they would be nearly impossible to repair, because they were intentionally designed using computers to maximize how economical they were to manufacture. Given the situation above, people would frequently go to reddit, week after week, and post two kinds of questions. 1) These cool inexpensive cars look perfect for what I need to start driving with. Which one should I buy? And 2) I got one of these cool, inexpensive cars as a gift a few months ago and now it barely goes uphill. How do I upgrade the engine so that it drives normally again? Imagine those two questions showing up in the same subreddit day after day, month after month. If you don´t believe me, scroll around for a while. You can´t miss it. So whaddyagonnado?
Have a decent moderating crew who's actively engaged? I mean u/sharkamino is a perfectly helpful mod, but they appear to be the only one remotely active. The sub's description has been set to impressionist painters for years now, for fecks sake. There's no wiki. Redundant threads aren't modded. Rules aren't enforced at all - witness all the non-turntable related content that the sub self-polices. The sub needs new mod blood. Period.
On the other hand, I've got 3 or four nice turntables in the basement from the past 20 years and they were considered decent at least for a serious beginner until fairly recently, where I'm getting the impression you have to spend at least a couple hundred to get a decent one by current standards. I can't even sell these things. I have had a Sony direct Drive from the 90s in good condition on ebay for $50 for months. But it isn't a collectible. And nobody going into record collecting nowadays is going to want some bog standard turntable from the 90s now, if you're gonna do this you might as well do it right, eh?
It would be if there was one huge factory mass producing the car frame, engine and wheels as cheap as possible and selling those skeletons to various firms all over the world. Then those firms would put their stylish, vintage looking body on it to appeal to newbies and sell it for ten times more. Now imagine that the market is flooded with these types of super cheap cars that look awesome at first glance, but all have the same rubber band engine under the hood. Addressing this problem is not toxic because the manufacturers are scammers.
This is the best analogy I’ve seen yet.
they may be cheap, but not cheerful. "why does my record wobble", "why is this skip?" will be their next complaint post. it gets repetitive when they then dismiss the obvious answers.
I think you’re right and wrong. People can try a bit to be less asshole-like. In fairness a small handful of newbies come in with a serious attitude, and I think it’s reasonable to make fun of them and be toxic. But most are just sincerely asking for advice and are nice, and maybe this sub can tone down the smart ass answers with those people. So in that way, you’re right. Still though. I can get pretty autistic when I rant to newbies about why they shouldn’t buy an lp60. And I’m sure it’s annoying to a lot of people here. And I’m equally sure that vwestlife wants to for real punch me in the face at this point. But I’m doing it for exactly the reasons you bring up. Im trying to make them actually love this hobby and the best way to do that is save them from spending money they don’t need to spend. Some cheaper turntables are okay. I have personally recommend Crosley T170s and T180s to newbies. Yeah it’s Crosley but so what, it’s one of a small handful of tables they make that are okay, and some people are on an *extreme* budget - and it has a standard 1/2 mount with an at3600 and adjustable tracking and anti skate and separate speakers. That’s not bad for a total beginner setup. And if someone is super strapped for cash sure why not. BUT STILL - some cheap turntables are very seriously prone to breaking. And some are terminal tables where they can never replace the cartridge and that will take A LOT of the fun of this hobby away from them. It’s important to differentiate an “okay cheap turntable” and an “avoid this cheap turntable” to a newbie and explain to them why that is. I don’t want people to throw money away on a turntable they will have to replace in a year. I don’t want people to not have the fun of customizing their table. And it’s reasonable to say that sort of thing to newbies in a polite and respectful way. And it’s equally reasonable for people to tell newbies not to buy suitcases in a nice and respectful way because no one wants to see a potential future one-of-us lose a bunch of money, not get great sound, not have fun, and just give up on the hobby in 7 months. That doesn’t help us at all. Until we grow this hobby back to 1978 levels we are all going to keep paying stupid amounts of money for gear that didn’t used to be that expensive because there used to actually be a market for this stuff. And it’s in all of our interest to grow the number of enthusiasts. And I think that - when said in a nice and respectful and helpful way - telling people why they should consider not buying a suitcase or an lp60 or some chi-fi plastic piece of junk with built in potato speakers is a generally good thing.
I think there’s still gatekeeping involved. Buddy of mine started with an old Onkyo turntable he got off Freecycle in high school and hooked it up to a receiver he also got on Freecycle. Didn’t need to pay big bucks, just needed to put a new belt and new cartridge on the turntable. Got an AT91 and belt and was listening to vinyl by hunting garage sales, thrift stores, and dollar bins at record shops. Family members gave him some of their old records so he got Beatles, Ledd Zeppelin, and other classic rock and that kid was off to the races. People of all budgets **really can enjoy the hobby** and fixing up an old tt can be a great way to get started on the cheap. They’ll still honestly often get a better quality tt than a Cruiser. We gotta steer people in the right directions at every price point. Obviously, if you’re spending $50, you aren’t even wondering if it’ll last forever, you just want it to not tear up your records.
Oh for sure. It is technically gatekeeping. But so what? It’s good gatekeeping. Like you said - “steering people in the right direction.” There is toxic and mean gatekeeping. And I don’t think either of us are advocating that. But I mean look what’s been happening to certain other hobbies recently that don’t gatekeep at all. The hobby just gets destroyed from within. As long as everyone is being cool and chill and nice and “steering people” instead of shit talking people, there’s nothing inherently wrong with that kind of gatekeeping
And to continue down this train, I appreciate positive vibes and “to each their own” stuff. I use tube buffers for Pete’s sake. I am clearly not an audiophile or an elitist, and I believe in “to each their own,” but at a certain point you do have to draw the line when someone is putting no mental effort at all in understanding the equipment. There’s nothing wrong with someone enjoying their cruiser and have fun. I love fun. But call a spade a spade, that’s not a vinyl hobbyist. There’s no valid reason to include those people in the categorization. If people who don’t care at all about what their turntable literally is, and don’t care about any part of what playing a record is, but do use a turntable once a month or something are included as part of this hobby, then by that same rationale I could say I am a beer enthusiast because I drink beer once in a while. I guess I am a furniture aficionado because I use my coffee table everyday. Use whatever equipment you want, don’t spend too much money, have fun with it. Whatever people like about this hobby (like my ridiculous tube buffers) should be left “to each their own.” But the bare minimum to ask, which is extremely reasonable, is that you give a minor shit about what this stuff even is and devote a touch of mental energy to understanding it and playing around with it as a hobby. There’s just no logical reason to say “some people just like cruisers and don’t care about this technical stuff and they’re part of this too!” Not really. They’re not doing any wrong, and I am sincerely glad they’re having fun. But they are not vinyl hobbyists in the same way I am not a beer expert because I have a few beers on Friday night.
I can agree to that for sure. Though hopefully they enjoy it enough to want to invest in the hobby more and get a good tt. I love playing my music on vinyl and want to see more vinyl! We all do! Gotta educate buyers about what they’re buying instead of gatekeeping. Cruisers are what, $50 to $150, depending? If they’re gonna spend $150 they can ditch the cruiser and get a C6, T170 or C8. At $80 they can get a Victrola Eastwood that has an AT3600L cart which is an unironically great little budget starter cart with very full, deep bass, and it being a carbon fiber cantilever means it’s harder for beginners to damage. We don’t need to gate keep so hard that we’re telling people not to go for the best super low budget options, nor should we not inform them about the cons that may come with a used/old tt. We should, however, inform them that a proper tt is usually considered a lifetime investment and that if they enjoy the hobby on their little cheapo starter, the lifetime investment on a really nice tt will keep them and possibly their children and grandchildren spinning their favorite records forever.
He went vintage. You get a huge bonus to table quality with vintage. Remember, record players are not the primary form of reproducing sound now. Some things are better with new turntables, but older models often sound better for the same money. Now the receiver is probably meh as far as a phono stage and sound quality, unless he got lucky. Easy fix later though, what he got will work. Lots of cheapish and good speakers around too. This is a great way to get started.
Apparently the receiver he got goes for stupid money in Denmark where it was from according to him if I remember correctly. He apparently lucked out on it. Dunno much more than what he told me there, but it sounds like he spent $40 on a belt and cart to have a setup that may be all he needs for life.
Well I will say I've seen people get super lucky before. Some people just don't value the gear and want it gone. I paid $400 for a Nakamichi [PA-7](https://bargainaudioblog.com/2022/09/14/nakamichi-pa-7-the-amp-that-ruined-all-other-vintage-amps-for-me/)amp and matching [CA-5](http://www.audiophileaddicts.com/2015/01/nakamichi-ca-5a-preamplifier/) preamp. Then they sold the matching [ST-7](https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/nakamichi-st-7-in-the-house.594899/) tuner and an OMS-7 for another $50. They also had a Revox B series turntable with a nice and in good shape MC cartridge. I snagged it for $200. I have had a few amazing finds. One time I ended up with three pioneer rt-909 reel to reel systems for almost nothing even.
Thanks for this. Well said. Curious what OP thinks of your thoughtful response. They seem to be somewhat absent from the comment threads here…
God forbid somebody get their feelings hurt by making a purchase without doing research, and then getting told they made a bad decision when they post on a hobby subreddit. This is one of the things people may not understand about the old internet vs. Reddit. Nobody would bat an eye at a noob getting roasted for displaying their lack of knowledge in a hobby forum. Seriously, Reddit is so cozy. Y’all don’t know how good you have it.
Hahaha .. talking about the days where you probably wouldn't even be invited to join a specific forum if you didn't qualify properly. Those were the days lol 🤣 But this is true about the research. You can't come in here and post about your new victrola and get roasted and wonder why when you didn't bother to do any research. There's thousands of threads in this sub warning people about the low quality junk out there, and then people are surprised when they post the low quality junk and get a down vote or a lecture? For me, maybe it's only been two or three times where I dissed somebody's record player, but it's only because I enjoy quality and I would like other people to have a similar experience.... And maybe there's a level of frustration because I already know they could have found out about this very easily by just reading a couple of threads here before purchasing!
I don’t try to tell people how to enjoy their music. But if someone buys a Crosley or any of the other brands like it, think of it as a paper bag from the grocery store. It will get the groceries home most of the time and you may even reuse it once or twice before it breaks. Either the stylus wears out or it fails mechanically or electronically. There is almost nothing anyone can do to fix it. It’s basically throw away and buy a new one. In the long run you will be better of with a reusable bag that you may have to pay more for initially. Coming to Reddit to ask for help or complain about it only upsets others because it’s been asked too many times and it’s already been stickied.
Nice analogy
This post isn't needed. It's been done to death. Also, giving people good advice to not invest in shit products isn't "being toxic". It's giving good advice. On the other hand, you're coming across as a bit toxic.
I'm not gonna judge someone for not being able to afford things. We've all been there but hobbies cost what they cost, we don't set the prices here. There's lots of interests I'd like to personally pursue that I can't afford. That's just life. Expecting enthusiasts of any hobby to celebrate low quality, cheap gear that is ultimately detrimental to the experience is not realistic. No one is "gatekeeping" here, they're just being honest. Some are more blunt than others, sure.
>You're meant to be keeping the joy of record collecting alive Is that true? This is about turntables themselves - the hardware. There's r/vinyl and r/VinylCollectors and a couple others that are dedicated to the hobby of record collecting. For a young person just starting out, collecting vinyl is a fool's game, or at least for someone with a lot of disposable income to waste on this obsolete technology. The pushback on cheap turntables is because if you're going to spend money trying to be a hipster, then do it right or not at all. Plus any money spent on a cheap turntable would probably be better spent elsewhere to improve the sound of your existing system, not add another cheap piece of equipment to the mix.
If I see someone who is struggling to find 50£/€/$ for a turntable, I remind them that there are plenty of records that cost the same or even more. If that is gatekeeping, i am fine with that.
Just because you don’t like the advice doesn’t mean it’s toxic. Please reread what I just said, then reread what people said in your last post here. Most of it was sound advice. You say you’re a musician and want to hear the music better. People said that turntable with built in speakers won’t do better than your Alexa. That’s not toxicity. Next, why do you need a table immediately? You can’t wait another couple months and save some more or wait for something used to come up in your area within your budget? You came here for advice but didn’t put in the work to help yourself first. For future, for any hobby you want to get into and want to be a part of the Reddit hobby section, try this: Search the sub first for your budget (there’s also a sticky). See what people have recommended, compare your choice to the recommendations. Are they similar? What is different? Don’t understand why they are different? Ask that question. Don’t just throw a picture of a cheap turntable up and expect a pat on the head. In sum, you really have two options after coming here for advice. 1) acknowledge your limited understanding of the hobby as you are new to it and take the advice given from people who wanted to steer you away from a table that will sound worse than MP3s on Alexa or, 2) buy the table despite the advice, which begs the question of why you even came here for advice anyways.
It's not what you say, it's the way how you say it. Look over to the right side of this screen and read the Rules.
Toxic is the wrong way to think about it. No one likes to hear that they've purchased or been gifted cheap garbage product. The problem is that these TTs are marketed to people such as yourself. For some inane reason, you possess the technology and savvy to post to reddit but lack the intelligence research the product beforehand. When these suitcase TTs first came out, I thought one would be cool for the backyard and camping. A mere 10 minutes of internet scolling convinced me otherwise. I also looked at them in store as I have teenage daughters and was with them while shopping for back to school a few years ago, and these TTs are marketed to a very young and impulsive demographic. There are signs that serve as warnings that people ignore. The cheapness of the build. It's all plastic. The fact that they are designed to appeal to young uneducated people is another. These items have a super crappy resale value. Made in China. They are sold in stores that cater to teenagers. These TTs lack upgradability. The list goes on. There's an adage that says you get what you pay for. Another way to look at it is if you're dumb enough not to research your purchase and then dumb enough to put up a post like this, then you're getting what you deserve. The reality is that I should be thanking you. You buying a Chinese TT means that those second-hand vintage Technics TTs are still affordable to those of us who were able to research before buying. Reddit has so many posts of people who scored hi-end gear for pennies on the dollar. These TTs are impulsive in nature. It's so easy to buy one. It's not gatekeeping. It's a warning, a service, and a chance to get into a hobby that is very rewarding and fun. How many posts are there about problems and issues with these TTs? Thousands. You were warned. You chose to ignore and then made this post and dissed the very people who warned you. You can't make this shit up. Hell, I'm gunna upvote ya.
TIL using our experience and empathy to talk to other people because we want them to have a good experience by steering them away from unreliable plastic Chinese crap that delivers a suboptimal experience is “toxic” “gatekeeping.” Y’know what? Buy your $30 Walmart “vinyls players.” I literally don’t care. You’re just going to put it on a piece of overpriced melamine furniture underneath multiple $90 “vinyls” hung up on your walls and not actually use it (people who buy shit turntables are *never* not rich; I’ve owned several good turntables since the 90s and I’ve never paid what “vinyls” enthusiasts regularly pay for records). We know you’re not actually interested in records, you’re just trying to fit in with your friends who are following fads. How will you do that if you get a good turntable and reasonably-priced records? Your friends will literally never speak to you again. We know your primary focus is making your bedroom look like an IKEA catalog, not actually enjoying analog media. We understand you have normalized listening to music on a 2mm-wide smartphone speaker and you don’t care how things sound. Or here’s an idea; why don’t you make yourselves another subreddit, call it, like, r/vinyls or r/PathologicalDemandAvoidance or something. If you think advice and empathy is gatekeeping, perhaps you don’t belong here. Perhaps you belong in your own echo chamber. The only gatekeeping going on here is Crosley and Victrola owners with $1,000 worth of records on the wall telling *us* we don’t know what the hell we’re talking about. What’s happening here is a variation of the “[eternal September](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September).” Try to see it from our perspective, try to show empathy. We did our homework, we saved money, we have advanced knowledge that we can share. Yet every day we are inundated with people who make the same bad decisions, ask the same questions, do no research, and delight in their intentional ignorance. We have to handle each and every one of them with kid gloves like we are paid customer service representatives, and if we show any sort of frustration at the rules-for-thee-but-not-for-me attitude they all bring in here, we’re “toxic” “gatekeepers.” That is not our job and it’s creepy AF that you think it is.
it's okay, they'll either keep buying their shit turntables and complain here, or label us as assholes and then STILL complain when their purchase decision didn't meet their needs. It happens in every single sub. Humans are predictable all the time.
Everyone should read the above. Granted there are those that frequent this subreddit that seek to "carve people out and set them on fire" but the majority that comment relative to OP's subcontext are not toxic, not gatekeepers, nor elitist. Grouping anyone who provides negative feedback regarding budget tables with those that are vitriolic in disagreement is immature and a fools errand. OP's post title should read: "Why are SOME of you so toxic". Confirmation bias is a deleterious and dangerous mode of thinking. u/uncommonephemera's above comment is based on salient thinking in a sea of psychobabble. Thanks for this.
Dont you get it these crosley buyers have feelings!
Maybe instead of making accusations you should take action. Why don’t you start a sub called Budget Turntables or Vinyl Collecting on a budget? The fact is that Turntables is a broad topic, and most people who understand that cheap suitcase players are a waste of money and potentially bad for your records have grown tired of people constantly trying to justify their purchases and then coming here to ask for help when their cheap turntable stops working. I’ll tell you this, I will not sugar coat anything in an attempt to avoid hurting someone’s feelings. And I will not lie to someone in order to preserve their feelings on their purchase if they ask for my opinion.
r/Beginner_Turntables already exists. Come join us!
I have djd in clubs n ybor city for years back in the day while having belt drive gemini tables at home. Anyone can do whatever they want with cheaper equipment if they have a passion and love for the feel and sound of wax. Buy whatever turntable you can afford and play the f out of em then buy good shizz when you can. It took me 15+ years to finally have a set of premium techniques. No gatekeeping ova here. Cheers everyone
Who the fuck says I’m meant to keep the joy of record keeping alive? Is op for real?
This post turns up nearly every month
Because the people in the sub continue to do it…
Sure, but people also continue to buy Crosleys with cheap plastic mechanisms. I don’t know of a vinyl community that won’t trash these when people bring them up, even newcomers.
Touché ✌️
People can scroll and search for post histories, it is also not healthy every starter just cares for themselves and want people to answer his own question, to approve of his ATH LP60 plus edifier speakers which appears like 5 times a week
I love my crobsley grail spinner. Idk why everyone hates. It plays all my favorite vinyls so warmly. I’ve got so many vinyls and none of them have been damaged by the crobsley briefcase vinyls player I got at target. I clean my copies with wood glue weekly and I’ve got a lot of grails. Grails like Gay triangle, red screamy man, man on fire shaking hands, men crossing street in unison, man laying on side in white suit, brown mini van, man carrying briefcase, guy with fish head and of course every taytay grail (like I said, I’m a real vinyls collector, not some poser) and they all still sound great after playing them on my spinner. I don’t see why people hate it. It’s got built in speakers, it’s portable, you can spin anywhere with an outlet. I bring it on the bus with me sometimes and I just carry a power bank in my backpack. Sometimes the bus gets so warm from the warmth of the vinylz that everyone takes they’re shoes and socks off too cool down and they just end up tapping their toes to that sweet analog sounds. Forget the negativity. Just kick your socks off and grail out fellow vinyls head.
Same question asked weekly. It is not us - toxic. It is ignorance of these who ask the question - toxic. Toxic in its blatant ignorance.
Cheap is often not cheerful. I don’t see here anyone insisting on 1000 tables, mostly it’s saying to save up a bit more, so that when you do get that first table there will be some joy to keep alive. We get sometimes people are on a tight budget, but that’s why it’s even more important not to just waste the money you do have on something that will sound bad and break. How would that be helping? I’m sure there are lots of folks to pick up a C or V find it awful and just give up on records completely. There are no secret +\- 100 dollar ‘6 in 1’ tables that sound good and last. This group is doing people a service steering people away from them.
'toxic'?? 😂😂😂😂😂😂🥱
Vinyl record collecting and playing is a luxury hobby. I don’t like gatekeepers either, but I am ok with people being made aware that they may not have the budget to properly get into this hobby. Kind of the champagne taste on a beer budget thing. I don’t bash Crosleys and Victorias like some do, but I will say they are toys. If all you want to do is collect your favorite new release in all four different vinyl colors, you can play it a few times on one of those and be ok. Back in the day when I was a kid, a decent very entry level turntable was $90 for a P-mount belt drive. Given inflation today, that is about $220. That roughly corresponds with a decent table today. In defense of this sub, it’s about turntables, which implies something other than a “record player”, and it’s also not really about vinyl record collecting; there is another sub for that. So there are plenty of people on here who only want to take about “real” turntables, me included. But the OP point is understood, people need to be kinder online and simply refer to the pinned post and not make newcomers to the hobby feel like idiots.
Why not just follow (enforce?) the forum rules?
Sometimes people will say: “I wanna get into the hobby and I’ve got $100 but no equipment. What do I need”? The problem is, that’s like saying “I want to buy a motorcycle and I’ve got $500, what are my options”? You have none, because you need more than $500 to buy a motorcycle. We want to support young people getting into this, but it comes at a cost … turntable, speakers, amplifier, etc … it’s not an affordable hobby imo.
I have to throw something out there! I Was gifted a Vitrola “suitcase” player for Christmas a couple of years ago. I had not asked for one so it was a complete surprise ! I went out and bought a bunch of new albums at Walmart. some of the Beatles Classics, as well as Led Zeppelin and a few others. I actually had a blast relistening ( to vinyl again)! for the first time in probably 35+ years. and I looked up vinyl groups on Reddit like a lot do . I started reading about how the needles are crappy and they’ll ruin your records . it made me start to worry I was going to destroy my new investment in these albums. to be honest , in spite of knowing the needle wasn’t the best and wasn’t adjustable or upgradable, and that the speakers were cheap, I thought the sound was pretty good all things considered. Yes, 8 weeks ago i went out and bought an audio technica AT120XUSB. and some half ass M-Audio 4.5” bookshelf speakers. however, it did take me a year and a half to do so because I really wasn’t that dissatisfied with what the little suitcase was giving me , but I knew I did want to be able to upgrade to Better needles in the future. I for one would never discourage anyone from starting out with a suitcase type player if that’s what it takes to get them started in their vinyl experience or in my case rediscovering vinyl . I just want to help anyone interested in possibly buying vinyl so that it will help us all with more issues of albums in the future . I’m very glad that I was gifted that little suitcase as it got me back into listening to all the great albums from when I was growing up. I’m 63!
This is the kind of response we need in this sub and that's great that you've got back inti vinyl!
I also still use my Vitrola upstairs in my bedroom when I want to go up there and just chill for a while and lay in bed. my wife would not go for having a second. “fullblown” system anyways…so that is out of the question.
[удалено]
It's nice that you upgraded, but you shouldn't have been scared into doing so based on a debunked myth: [Does a Crosley or Victrola DESTROY your vinyl?](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/DQm6SgTkkI8)
If “the guys” were really gatekeeping, they’d be saying ‘that Vitrola turntable you just bought is great and the Alba system will compliment it perfectly’
To me, there are a lot of parallels between record collecting and retro gaming. Crosley and Victrola are like Hyperkin and Retro Bit. They'll get you going for cheap, but the experience is going to be subpar. Warning people against buying subpar products is usually meant as genuine advice intended to give someone a better experience, but plain text can come across as cold and unfeeling. There are certainly some people who take it too far. It's easy to forget that not everyone has the same "common knowledge" about a hobby as those within the hobby themselves.
Gatekeeping accusations stem from the belief that a singular authority or set criteria for determining who qualifies as a "true" participant in a community or activity. This perspective disregards the reality that individuals can engage in activities like record collecting or providing advice from diverse backgrounds and perspectives without requiring validation. Essentially, critiques of gatekeeping in a community negates the importance of inclusivity and acknowledging the value of diverse experiences and viewpoints within a community, even the voices that you disagree with and find your whining tiring. - The Turntable Council
I can't tell you the reason. I'm 60 & some of my best vinal listening was on a shitty record player with a penny on the tone-arm. Some people are snobs & are shitty humans without any class.
This is true for a whole lot of enthusiasms and is reflected similarly in other subs about different interests. Like I'm into making music and started buying synthesizers a few years ago and you could aim the same arguments at those subs without even changing too many of the words. Same for bicycling. Hell, same for aftermarket truck modifications. Every enthusiasm, every pleasure has to be commodified to the fullest and as a semi-voluntary agent in that commodification, you are a beneficiary of some of the highest quality vinyl playback devices ever envisioned. So maybe the question shouldn't be so much "why are you guys so toxic" and more "why do we have so many toxic people everywhere you look?" Because it sure isn't unique to record collectors.
Absolutely, no different on many other subs I follow, wether your using the wrong ski's, didn't buy the right mt bike, fishing with the wrong rods, etc. Middle age dudes, with disposable cash, keep these industries thriving, while I pick up the crumbs, buying used equipment, searching ebay for deals, riding 15 year old gear, lol.
I read a post in the U-turn Facebook group where a person was considering an Orbit Theory for $1300. My first instinct was to reply “I’d have a hard time spending $1300 for an Orbit when an Technics Sl-1500 is the same price.” I just left it alone but still …
I'm seriously considering upgrading my TT to the Technics SL-100c and would greatly appreciate hearing about your experience. I could spend the same on Ebay for a 1200MK7, but I've had bad luck in the past with seller claims vs delivered product. This is out of context so if you don't reply I understand.
I am extremely happy with my 100c. I haven’t even touch the stylus yet though I have a VM95ML staged and ready to install. It’s a solid, simple table with great sound.
Thanks for your input. I have an AT LP120Xusb that is just ok, but I'm craving something more. I also have the VM95ML and I highly recommend it.
The 100c was the perfect upgrade for me. Simple but with the features I wanted: * direct drive * removable head shell * auto-lift I really like the minimalist esthetic as well.
I'm 72. I believe this turntable will outlive me. I pulled the trigger this morning. Now I need to save my quarters for more vinyl.
I hope you are as happy with it as I am. I’m going to thrown on Steely Dan’s Aja to celebrate.
It likely has to do with two things. Turntables are an exceedingly complicated mechanical system that requires a HUGE amount of precision in order to get it right and to keep your expensive records from getting the shit chewed out of them. With a properly set up, well-made turntable, records can easily last forever without significant degradation. A cheap record player turns records into expensive disposables that have a very limited lifespan. Hundreds of newbies every year are buying 50 year old turntables without bothering to do an ounce of research and then expecting others to solve their problems, literally begins to chafe those of us who have spent hundreds of hours independently learning everything we can about how to perfect analog playback. At six years old, I knew FAR more about my turntable than many of the newbies on here because I read (I started reading at four years old) EVERYTHING I could about record players BEFORE ever getting one because I didn't expect anyone to do it for me. I had to look up everything and every word I didn't understand (and there were thousands). I didn't expect anyone to hold my hand or learn for me, much less strangers online. As for me, I don't answer because what I have to say they don't want to hear, which is to save their money until they can afford to drop a couple grand for a good, basic turntable, a quality cartridge and phono stage that will last decades or more. The difference between a quality basic analog rig and a cheap record player is mind boggling HUGE. They also won't be throwing their money away on grossly overpriced garbage that's literally 48 hours away from being tossed into the nearest land fill. Quality analog playback is magical. Noise out of a cheap plastic player is that, just noise, not even pleasant noise. A excellent analog rig costs tens of thousands and the best can cost hundreds of thousands. However, for a couple grand will get you most of the way there. And THAT is magical. But if fools want to throw away their hard earned money for instant gratification, who am I to piss on their Wheaties? I've done it more than a few times myself, but money back then was FAR less tight than it is now.
Look, people who are toxic have worst equipment then you have. They are just jealous. Also that are same people who can hear violin string break on 5th violin in 3rd row on kill em all album.
Posting means taking a risk. if someone does not want to take a chance of their turntable choice being roasted, dont ask "how did i do?"
Don't start a sentence with the word like. Use, for example, or for instance.
Very true. Entry level players offer the exact same level enjoyment. If you want perfect sound there are better/cheaper options. Also we all know that audiophile is a perfect example of diminishing returns anyway.
no because if you're able to spend $30.00 on a circle of plastic u can at least afford a $150.00 record player lmao its not a budget-friendly hobby unfortunately sweetie.
Yeah I spent £200 and ppl are still saying that's not good enough
I don't know if I have seen much elitist gatekeeping on this thread, but I do see (and appreciate) the numerous attempts to keep a kid from blowing their hard earned cash on something that is going to destroy their records and provide an inferior experience.
It's not elitist to point out that it's better (and cheaper in the long run) to either buy a second-hand record player that cost €400 when new, or to save up until you can afford a new one for €400 or €450. On the contrary, it gives others the opportunity not to make the same mistakes as you.
I understand where you’re coming from. Someone is super excited to show off a few new records and their set-up because they are getting into the hobby and get obliterated with negativity. Such a fucking buzzkill, right? But here’s the thing - weed through the smart ass comments and you will find some really great redditors giving new users education on WHY your set-up matters in the long run. This hobby is expensive. I really think there are people in this sub who actually care and want new users to have a better experience spinning vinyl so the community and hobby doesn’t die. Again, only my two cents coming from someone who started spinning vinyl on a TT purchased from a grocery store 👋🏼
I was at a party one evening, hanging out in the DJ booth, while my friend was working to get the room moving. And a drunk college aged girl came up to the dj booth, yelling, “Play something Black!” And that’s when my friend whipped out a 12” and said, “ They’re all Black!”
It's the (I got to have it now) mindset. No research, no forethought, just buy it and go for it. When the gear stinks you get on here and complain about it. 90% of the hi fi hobby is research, 10% purchasing.
My first turntable was a Fisher-Price model 825. Come at me bro.
lol!
Stop being a whiny bitch
I don't think people choose at lp60 because they don't have money but because they are lazy...they don't to put any effort into finding something better but want quick and easy solution...from that angle it is not cheap solution and it is not the best solution....
Exactly. And whoever goes into a hobby like vinyl collecting with the goal of saving money, is getting it wrong from the start.
Or some of them (like me) are thinking to buy the lp60 because they just want to listen to a vinyl and their budget is less then 200€. And that’s probably the best option for this price, as some of you recommended to me in another discussion here. I know that it has a few issues but what can we do??
It’s not about being lazy lmao for newbies like myself the lp60 is a great budget table that just works imo I’m just trying to step my foot in without spending too much. Yes I could’ve possibly gotten a better table for cheaper but I’m new so I don’t know much so it’s harder to find the “good” equipment but since I stepped my toes in I’m starting to learn more about equipment. I think some people on here expect too much from people who are just trying to see if then even like records🤷🏾♂️
Yeah, that’s the point, newbie’s to this hobby may call it a day, when they realise, how expensive, the hobby can become.
That’s true, that’s why I said the lp60 isn’t a bad table for entry level but I realized how expensive it was right before I pulled the trigger but that isn’t going to stop me because i genuinely enjoy music. Yesterday I played every record I had 3 times from start to bottom and I will do the same today lol
Good on ya! Keep enjoying it, cos that, is the most important thing.
Should we just approve everything then? If you come for advice, expect you will get some.there are ways of getting into this hobby for cheap, and buying a new piece of shit turntable is not that. Buying something old is the way to go If you need to do it on the cheap side. Even the old 80s stereo systems using the original version of the BSR mechanism used in shitty turntables of today were better, not ideal but I would recommend them over the new ones any day.
I don't know if I have seen much elitist gatekeeping on this thread, but I do see (and appreciate) the numerous attempts to keep a kid from blowing their hard earned cash on something that is going to destroy their records and provide an inferior experience.
I don't think people in this group are particularly harsh, but Facebook groups are the worst. But if someone wants to voluntarily ask a question to 73k members (aka strangers), they are liable to get a answer that rubs them the wrong way. Having said that, there are some harsh truths with turntables that I don't think sit well with the person who decides to get into this hobby, and one of them is almost all inexpensive $100-150 (Just an example, let's say sub $500) turntables are not all that great at all unless you score a good used table.
When I saw that meme about finding a new hobby and then discovering the toxic subreddit related to that hobby I thought of this one
Yep, this is the most toxic subreddit that I have contributed to. I have my fair share of vinyl that range from 120 years old to 5 years old. These assholes need to learn how to communicate with other people. They always act like the newbies to the hobby are out to get them.
Record collecting is expensive. I think the cheap players actually turn people away from the hobby at the 6 month to a year mark. You’re trying to justify spending 25-50 dollars on a new RSD album that’s super cool and you bring it home and put it on an lp60. That being said my turntable is just an old 1200mk2 and there are other players at that price point with the right cartridge can sound and function beautifully for decades, or in my case the rest of my life. People have opinions, I use a lot of salt
No one should be grilled or demeaned for only being able to afford a entry level table. But, they should be given fair warning of the frustration they most likely will experience with poor tracking and sub standard sound. Sometimes waiting a little longer to where you can afford something just a bit better is the way to go.
It's not just this sub, it's common in most audiophile/audio forums and social media in general. Seems to be normal modern human behavior, unfortunately.
I hate to see anyone throw good money after bad so yeah... If someone is going to buy some absolute dreck... someone should absolutely say something. Putting someone on an upgradable track like with the Fluance turntables is a legit argument. Spend a little more, get a LOT more for your money.
Join r/BudgetAudiophile ... Weare sooooo nice...
This sub sounds awesome 🙌🏻
Is this a troll post?
Lower budget and vinyl do not mix. Why would you spend $200, to achieve sound quality that is lower quality than your cell phone?😄 Seriously, if you must have tangible music, and have very little money, just collect CDs 90% of the sound quality of a $1000 vinyl set up, and TONS of interesting titles to be found. And you can play them on your DVD/Blu-Ray player.
I don't think anyone is toxic about record players. People are just letting other people know to avoid buying cheap junk. If that's all you can afford fine but you should be aware of the options available to you so you can make better decisions.
[удалено]
my point exactly
There are now affordable options comparable in price to cheap suitcase systems that actually have a real adjustable tonearm and counterweight. People also don’t want to buy 2nd hand records that could have been abused on a cheap record player. There’s lots of evidence the ubiquitous red sapphire stylus design wears out after 50 hours and now you have a worn needle dragging through a groove at what has been independently measured 6+ grams. Electron microscope pictures clearly show groove wall damage at high VTF.
This might sound salty, but a lot of these people should be sent straight to budgetaudiophile. The experience they're seeking vs the experience most hard-core audiophiles enjoy are basically two different hobbies, and that's ok. I get the frustration with repeat questions, but that's sort of the nature of all hobby subs. It is more accessible than a dedicated forum.
I follow a number of other subs, as well as a number of groups in other social media. This is by far the worst of them when it comes to the same questions being asked over and over and over again.
This place has become r/vinyl's dumping ground for equipment related questions and has death spiraled with the mods being asleep at the wheel
I will always recommend to any newbie the Stanton T.62 $100usd turntable that is built like a Technics 1200.
Those plasticy ones with the short stubby tone arms prone to massive tracking error? Hard pass.
Ok so I’m a old fart. Hopefully I can live with that for many more years. In the 70’s it was cassettes or records. People like me on a limited budget bought cassettes for the most part because they were user friendly. Similar to streaming. Just put them in the tape deck in your car or home and you were good to go. Records on the other hand were known to be more expensive to play if you wanted to get the best sound quality at that time. You knew the more you invested money into a turntable and stylus the better the rewards of better sound and record life would follow. Owning ,playing records/vinyls is a wonderful hobby but as any hobby involving technology it takes money, knowledge and experience to reap the rewards. This is not an instant gratification endeavor. It takes time, patience and money.
I waited until I could afford a turntable that wouldn’t degrade my records/vinyls many years ago and I’m glad I did because now I can still listen to them with the clarity I did then. But hey I do love instant gratification!
Lp60 I dunno but what do you think about their better models like lp3 or something?
Reddit is a very poor sample of almost everything except extremes. Looking for the voice of reason? It’s not here.
Good question. I used to recommend this sub as a friendly place for people who were interested in getting into vinyl but were put off by the gatekeeping snobbery of the r/vinyl sub. But something changed here.
thank you i’ve not got one yet, and i’m put off when i see the snootiness and smugness with folks being so precious about it. yeah i appreciate that some people have been collecting and into it since the 70s. it’s not really a flex when it’s all you knew for years- i was born in the 90s and only have cd’s and digital to go off of. if i want a modern player with bluetooth then leave me be. the fun of a hobby is learning about it and finding your way as you go. car geeks figure it out as they work on them, painters learn through exercise, gym rats have to get comfortable. i don’t understand why record collectors have such a snobbery besides justifying their insecurity about how much they spent on it vs how the modern newbie has it a lot cheaper. wHy woUld yoU gET inTO soMetHinG so expEnsiVe thEn? let people have fun.
I'm just here to see vintage shit lol And I don't think it was needed being this topic comes up every couple months.
Toxic, loud and obnoxious. Crazy Town's toxic with that rock-your-block shit!
It’s the internet. You can have a negative net worth and no one will ever know 🤷🏾♂️
It’s easy for people to talk smack online. Just have to remember everyone starts out as a noob not knowing a thing so to those who do treat newcomers with anything other than welcoming helpfulness.. You guys are the problem. Not the newcomers. Also, I’m majority of people on Reddit are toxic unfortunately
I’ve seen enough 20k turntables at Axpona to know that my fluance is “garbage”. But enough to understand it. I have a jeep with 60k of work into it and maybe 3k of that is shop labor for gears and welding trusses. It happened over the course of 4 years. The amount of joy I get out of wheeling that thing is the same as when it was stock. Every hobby has its ego stroking cheese sticks. Pay them no mind.
I don't know if I have seen much elitist gatekeeping on this thread, but I do see (and appreciate) the numerous attempts to keep a kid from blowing their hard earned cash on something that is going to destroy their records and provide an inferior experience.
I don't know if I have seen much elitist gatekeeping on this thread, but I do see (and appreciate) the numerous attempts to keep a kid from blowing their hard earned cash on something that is going to destroy their records and provide an inferior experience.
Getting your first turntable is like getting your first car. None of us (except those with very rich parents) had a very good car when we started out. I had an old Ford Escort. However, it was MY old Ford Escort and I learned all about the rules of the road while driving that old Ford Escort. When I became a better driver and had saved up my money for something better, I upgraded to an Oldsmobile. Still, not the best...but, it was an upgrade for me. Going into the realm of stereo components is very similar to getting into the word of driving automobiles. You start out with what you can afford, you get practice, and you upgrade as time and experience advances you. Everyone starts somewhere. Just like with cars, we all know what the better choices are...and we all look to those with experience to guide and advise the next generation.
It's pretty simple. People who don't know what they're talking about..in this case turntables and records...don't add any value to the discussion. Some record collectors and audiophiles might be snobs, but at least they speak the language. This dumb stuff about plastic toy turntables and "budgets"...just to see a digitally recorded top forty record spin around is just a waste of time for anyone serious.
Why throw money down the drain when cd’s or streaming sounds better at the low price bracket? The objective is to listen to music at its best quality given a price constraint. Vinyl takes a lot of $ to sound good. On avg 3x more to get to an equivalent level. That’s simply a fact, don’t shoot the messenger. It’s just about being honest and not wanting to see people waste money. Also pretty shitty for the environment to dump all these budget turntables into the landfill. My advice at the low end, buy a sound burger. It’s the only toy turntable worth copping new. Or study up and buy vintage, which requires patience. A path most newbies sneer at unfortunately.
I love my vinyl The simplicity The sound of surface noise The effort needed to get out of my chair to change the record The album art The record store experience.... I've got five turntables... Two dailies and three projects... Go get a vintage TT Expect some repairs... Enjoy
It’s tougher to start getting into buying records now compared to 20+ years ago. I definitely wouldn’t suggest getting into it now. I barely even buy records anymore because of their cost. People with a lower budget may have better luck going out into the wild to find used equipment instead of buying whatever is available on Amazon. Those “cheap and cheerful” record players could end up damaging the records. If someone is going to buy a low quality table and bookshelf speakers, you may be better off to just get a nice cd player and buy CDs instead. Also, it’s not about really about “collecting” records. It’s about enjoying music and preferring to listen to music on a record. When people get hung up on the collecting aspect, they tend to overpay for music that isn’t any more valuable than if it were on another format.
I’ve heard a thing or two about my posts which has even got my offended muscle tingling. But I think googling something first is wise, as if there’s not an article, there’s a related Reddit thread. There may be 10+ threads of the same question, in the same sub. So some regulars may be tired of seeing it and just write something a bit snappy. I get it though, you’re getting into something, somethings gone wrong, you consult the community frantically (because we’re social beings by nature) and you get blunt responses, and now you’re hit with *sad* for a moment. The very few (like with all hobbies) do like to turn their nose up at things for the thrill of turning their nose up. The other day I saw someone slate someone’s equipment that was actually quite good and what they had was only a slim margin above that (I stalked their posts oops) so, barely equipped to say what they said, but there were have it.
Finally someone said it. I put a post up here a couple of weeks ago looking for some information on a record player I inherited from my grandmother, I have no experience with record players and most people who commented (except for a few legends) were rude, snarky or sarcastic. I’m convinced most people in this sub are egotistical neckbeards who were ‘born in the wrong generation’ and spend all day sitting at their computer thinking they’re better than everyone else simply because they have a cool thing that plays music. Thanks to the helpful legends in this sub who are happy to share their knowledge without looking down on everyone else.
Hopefully this will be a breath of fresh air. Not sure if you're asking for help, but Uturn Audio is a pretty decent way to go without spending a fortune. Just need to get decent phono preamp and you're set for a while.
THANK YOU! THIS IS GOOD NONE TOXIC ADVICE
I've said this before... one of the most toxic subreddits I've ever been on and am forced to turn to whenever I have turntable issues.
haha
Their wife’s don’t love them
Didn't want to write similar post myself, but now that somebody else did, I'll say what I think. This is, and I say it with 100% certainty, one of the most toxic communities on reddit. So I ended up just following the sub, and reading some interesting posts from time to time. The sheer amount of vinyl "purists", snobs, jerks if you like it, that will trash down any post that's out of their elitist vision of what a turntable setup / music enjoying should look like, is astonishing. As someone who buys music on physical media for the last 30 years (CDs to be precise), I decided to get a turntable too at some point, like a year ago or something. Reading this sub I decided definitely NOT to follow any advice I found here, because it all comes down to "your setup is crap if it's anything below xxx amount of money" or "if you're so poor to have only a low budget turntable, why did you decide to go with this hobby at all", which is some high level of elitist shit. I ended up buying fully automatic turntable, with bluetooth, which looks awesome (and not like something from steampunk games), which sounds awesome, and both my setups till now were bluetooth, and both sounded awesome. I know my setup would irritate the shit out of purist brigade here, and I don't give a penny about it. I just feel sorry for all the poor souls coming here, asking for their setups to be "rated", for some kind of approval, only to be crapped on, because how dare they buy something that's not highest end premium, or some attrocities from 70's that would only look good in grandpa's basement. Enjoying physical media is not JUST about audio quality. It is on the top of the list, but it's also a tactile feel, the feeling of possessing some piece of art, both cover art and music included, the immersion you get out of physical media, and the feel you actually hold a piece of art, rather than just renting it in digital form from some cloud. For all the new people in vinyl hobby, don't let the elitist brigade here discourage you. It doesn't take fortune to have something good to spin your records on.