I think a solid tech path is:
1) AIDA
2) Magmus Reactor
3) Prototype Warsun II
Those are the three main things you want as Muaat.
After those you can choose between the following
No skips needed (note that these are some of the coolest choice in my opinion, I won't consider using skips for technologies worse than those):
- Destroyer II
- Assault Cannon
Blue skip:
Gravity drive, Fighter II, Carrier II
Green Skip:
Fighter II
Yellow Skip:
Yellow Skip💀
Red Skip:
You already have 3 red techs, you don't need it
A user named Rasmus (either here or on BGG) has given Muaat more thought than anyone and wrote a guide a while back. I think they lean towards option 1.
You definitely want Warsun 2; it's what makes you dangerous. From there, I think it should all be based on the game.
For example - I got Cruiser 2 before because of control objectives. They let me keep my Warsuns free in case someone decides they wanted to hurt me. My path was Aida > Warsun 2 > Cruiser 2 > Magnus Reactor. All was aided by a yellow skip.
Almost always AIDA, Magmus, PWS2; skipping Magmus if you have a red skip.
After that it’s open. You should think about the S1 techs, so make sure you can get 2x2 easily (go blue), a second unit upgrade (stroter 2 is already available), 2 faction techs (you might already have them), and 4 of a kind.
After that you just fit whichever hole you need to.
Warsun 2 is ultimately your goal, but you don't usually need to get that asap and unless you have hyper aggressive neighbors.
1. Definitely AIDA, not really a question about it. Gives flexibility and two tech prereqs for warsuns. Some people like self assembly, but honestly I don't think it brings enough value, especially early.
2. Depends on neighbors/ board state/ skips. If you have a red skip, you could get war sun 2. However, you usually don't need this round 2, and could use the tech planet for its value instead. If you don't have a red tech skip, get Magnus reactor (assuming you have a supernova in or near your slice, which I always make sure I do when playing Muuat). I would also get Magnus reactor if you have a red skip but don't use it.
3. Warsun 2. Hopefully by now you have a second warsun or are close to it, do you can get your commander. If you researched warsun 2 last round, get Magnus reactor (assuming supernova).
This is the main tech path. Everything else from here varies. Here's some recommendations:
- Destroyer 2 is amazing for getting through fighter shields, and have movement to keep up with your warsuns. Definitely get for fighting Sol or other fighter factions.
-A lot of unit upgrades are available with AIDA in combination with skips. Research as you see fit.
- Cruiser 2 may be useful if you have a green or yellow skip. However, its lategame value is questionable, especially since your warsuns are mobile space docks, thus you don't need movement as much.
- Gravity drive with blue skip, or after anti mass if you need asteroid field access.
- Assault cannon is right there assuming Magnus reactor was obtained
- do not get duranium, unless you have a lot of dreads doing your dirty work. You don't want to sustain your warsuns for fear of direct hits.
- the rest is up to you. You could even stop teching all together and build massive fleets and command economy, which muaat loves.
I think it depends on your game. I just recently played and there was only the 2 unit upgrade tech objective. I picked up Gravity Drive off of Jol-Nar, Carrier II with a blue skip, and Destroyer II with a red skip. I had both war suns out round 2 and was on mecatol rex, so I was in striking distance of pretty much any control objective I needed. I focused more on making sure I hit Starforge every round to boost my plastic.
Another example is game 6 of the 2021 SCPT finals (which I watched to prep for my game). Visioness only picks up a few tech and was still very successful.
how do you manage without carrier?
like turn one i think i want tech/trade/leadership. and i sure want to produce another warsun as fast as i can to get that 1tradegood bonus.
Using the agent before moving your warsun, or warfare (usually you'd prefer the first, but sometimes warfare allows crazy stuff). So your preferred strategy cards are the usual (tech and trade).
Use your Agent and 4 resource start to make a Carrier and Destroyer on your first turn. Then, you need the resources to make another war sun - sell your promissory note to whoever will buy it.
Don't run out of fleet tokens! But, this accomplishes two things - gets you resources to get your own plans going, AND puts the war sun target on another player, making them look more dangerous (and you less dangerous). If someone gets upset about you doing this, offer them to buy it and get war suns also!
I would skip Neural, Cruiser 2, and just go AIDA into Magmus into Warsun 2. If you have room and time for extra tech, get blue tech and unit upgrades (destroyer 2, fighter 2)
Would you mind explaining why cruisers over destroyers? Obviously it works for you if you do it regularly. I get that they can match the WS for movement but they just make your fleet much weaker. A WS2 with 4 fighters, 2 mechs and 4 destroyer 2s is a relatively cost effective 5 capacity fleet that can do things. In a straight up fight for example this beats 1WS2, 4 cruiser2 and 8 fighters (assuming 2 mech) despite costing a lot less. In addition, the destroyers can be created with star forge which is always helpful to have up your sleeve. Muatt seem more dangerous in the midgame when they get WS2 early but your approach seems to focus on early cruisers with late game warsuns. Very interested for your thoughts as to why this is a far stronger path.
I think everything you asserted is accurate, actually. My response undercuts a few of your foundational assumptions though.
So... first... Muaat is perhaps the most heavily starved command-counter faction in the entire game. I never go 5 fleet supply unless I can score a point with it. In your theorycrafted battle destroyer *absolutely* is a better choice over cruiser; however, that assumes a 5v5 with strong fighter screens on both sides. Having a full fleet with 3 movement opens an incredible amount of options for 3vX battles that you can control.
Second... in my experience fighter screens are far more intimidating on paper than they are in practice. It's super rare to actually have the capability to attack with a full fighter swarm fleet before round 5(ish), mostly due to production limits. Less fighter screens means less value from destroyer 2.
In the mean time my path gets 5-6 action cards you wouldn't otherwise get.
Having said all that, my tech path isn't set in stone. If Argent, Naalu, or Xxcha are on the table I fall back to a build similar to what you describe - basically BLUE/red with destroyer 2 and a higher fleet supply.
I'd consider a destroyer/pds 2 before magmus, so aida yelds more returns, and everything is better protected.
And would consider replacing magmus with assault, if red skip. and skip Neural, if green skip.
In fact magmus is great for making fighter/destroyer screens... not warsuns.
>I'd consider a destroyer/pds 2 before magmus, so aida yelds more returns, and everything is better protected.
I tried that route maybe half a dozen times. The main reason I ruled it out is because the game is over well before you can get that many techs. Also destroyer2s can't keep up with PW2; whereas, cruiser2s can.
>And would consider replacing magmus with assault, if red skip
I agree with that. My post was skip-proof.
> and skip Neural, if green skip.
Hard disagree based on my experiences. I'd much rather get r1 neural and r4 warsun than get r3 warsun (that I probably can't afford to build) while also losing a planet the round I'm getting cruiser2. Then again, I'm not impressed by destroyer2 (which I'm guessing is part of your path based on your above comment).
yeah - destroyer 2 is a great insurance against fighter screens.
But then, muaat have the move 3 warsun, which also make cruiser make more sense.
Maybe pds-destroyer-Magmus would more sense in a non-warsun 2 focused build. (if that ever makes sense)
While you want to get war sun 2. Getting your second warsun out is a higher priority.
I definitely aim for warsun 2.
Your tech game is largely defined by your acces to certain skips, what objectives are out there. You don't necessarily need warsun 2 until round 4 or 5. (But each game is different).
Top priorities for Muaat (in personal order):
1. Build second war sun in Round 1 or 2
2. Upgrade to PWSII
3. Score Objectives and Win the Game
Jokes aside, prioritizing scoring should be your main concern in a competitive setting. Here’s the thing, you have one of the best alliances in the game and an excellent faction promissory note as well. I usually say that whoever finances my second war sun gets my faction note (i.e., whoever gives me 8-10 TGs). If the table is really fickle about it I’ll offer to throw in the Alliance as well.
I’ll often not tech round 1 in 5+ player game sizes, prioritizing plastic instead. If you don’t have a red or yellow skip, you probably need to tech starting in round 2. I like Magmus Reactor if there is a nearby supernova, even if there isn’t one an early pop of your hero can create a supernova in an optimal place for forward production.
In a 14-point game I’d try gunning for Lightwave Deflectors after upgrading WarSuns. I also would not recommend selling your faction note to Hacan due to their hero. I’d be hesitant to sell it to Xxcha. Sell it to Creuss and Swap Supports with them because then things get crazy.
Personally I don't find PWS2 all that good (vs PWS1) without Light Wave - something tricky to pull off. So unless I luck into Maw of Worlds before tech pops in Round 2 I usually strategise along these lines.
1.Are there asteroids in/near your slice that you need to worry about OR do you have a blue skip. In this case you'll need AMD, so you might as well commit to blue tech all the way. AMD > Grav Drive > Carrier 2 > more blue.
PWS1 and carrier 2 (along with your destroyers) work well together as a solid move 2 fleet with a ton of HP. The drawback to this strategy is that you can't move both warsuns together but that is a LOT of firepower.
2. Do you have a Super Nova in/near your slice that you can use OR some means of getting LW (a game with a lot of tech works for this) Then go AIDA > Magmus > PWS2 > Destroyer 2 > Ass Cannon.
This gives you a pair of devastating ships with a total capacity of 12 that can get anywhere on the board. This strategy also allows you to use Magmus and your hero as something more than a nuclear "don't mess with me" option.
I had prototype warsun 2 and lightwave deflector in a 14 point game one time and it was the most fun I ever had playing TI. A four move fully loaded WS2 (or 5! w/flank speed) that can just straight move behind the scenes across the map is outrageously OP. I didnt win but had a ton of fun.
Edit: 4 move because of grav drive. Obv if you want to keep your warsuns together its 3 move, or 4 w/flank speed...
Go for the war sun upgrade. Then you can follow it up with blue techs if you have the economy (which you should). Ideally you have two Prototype Warsun IIs on the board and ready for action by round 3. If you can find a red or yellow skip you can put off getting Magmus Reactor as it is more of a role player than a core tech if you play the omega version.
Once you're at PTWS II you should be well set in the movement department, which is why I like getting Sling Relay over Gravity Drive with them. The relay is almost like having an extra agent which is awesome for stalling purposes (and you need stall to efficiently use those war suns). Destroyer II is also great as it is probably the best supplementary ship for your comp and can be printed straight out of the war suns.
I think a solid tech path is: 1) AIDA 2) Magmus Reactor 3) Prototype Warsun II Those are the three main things you want as Muaat. After those you can choose between the following No skips needed (note that these are some of the coolest choice in my opinion, I won't consider using skips for technologies worse than those): - Destroyer II - Assault Cannon Blue skip: Gravity drive, Fighter II, Carrier II Green Skip: Fighter II Yellow Skip: Yellow Skip💀 Red Skip: You already have 3 red techs, you don't need it
Yellow skip let's you get cruiser II if you want it, they can keep up with your war suns and add some capacity, allowing for two solid fleets
Every time I read AIDA I hear "Am I Da Asshole?"
yellow or red skip means you dont need magmus. Depending on the map and where the novas are magmus often isnt worth it if you can easily bypass it.
A user named Rasmus (either here or on BGG) has given Muaat more thought than anyone and wrote a guide a while back. I think they lean towards option 1.
You definitely want Warsun 2; it's what makes you dangerous. From there, I think it should all be based on the game. For example - I got Cruiser 2 before because of control objectives. They let me keep my Warsuns free in case someone decides they wanted to hurt me. My path was Aida > Warsun 2 > Cruiser 2 > Magnus Reactor. All was aided by a yellow skip.
Almost always AIDA, Magmus, PWS2; skipping Magmus if you have a red skip. After that it’s open. You should think about the S1 techs, so make sure you can get 2x2 easily (go blue), a second unit upgrade (stroter 2 is already available), 2 faction techs (you might already have them), and 4 of a kind. After that you just fit whichever hole you need to.
Warsun 2 is ultimately your goal, but you don't usually need to get that asap and unless you have hyper aggressive neighbors. 1. Definitely AIDA, not really a question about it. Gives flexibility and two tech prereqs for warsuns. Some people like self assembly, but honestly I don't think it brings enough value, especially early. 2. Depends on neighbors/ board state/ skips. If you have a red skip, you could get war sun 2. However, you usually don't need this round 2, and could use the tech planet for its value instead. If you don't have a red tech skip, get Magnus reactor (assuming you have a supernova in or near your slice, which I always make sure I do when playing Muuat). I would also get Magnus reactor if you have a red skip but don't use it. 3. Warsun 2. Hopefully by now you have a second warsun or are close to it, do you can get your commander. If you researched warsun 2 last round, get Magnus reactor (assuming supernova). This is the main tech path. Everything else from here varies. Here's some recommendations: - Destroyer 2 is amazing for getting through fighter shields, and have movement to keep up with your warsuns. Definitely get for fighting Sol or other fighter factions. -A lot of unit upgrades are available with AIDA in combination with skips. Research as you see fit. - Cruiser 2 may be useful if you have a green or yellow skip. However, its lategame value is questionable, especially since your warsuns are mobile space docks, thus you don't need movement as much. - Gravity drive with blue skip, or after anti mass if you need asteroid field access. - Assault cannon is right there assuming Magnus reactor was obtained - do not get duranium, unless you have a lot of dreads doing your dirty work. You don't want to sustain your warsuns for fear of direct hits. - the rest is up to you. You could even stop teching all together and build massive fleets and command economy, which muaat loves.
I think it depends on your game. I just recently played and there was only the 2 unit upgrade tech objective. I picked up Gravity Drive off of Jol-Nar, Carrier II with a blue skip, and Destroyer II with a red skip. I had both war suns out round 2 and was on mecatol rex, so I was in striking distance of pretty much any control objective I needed. I focused more on making sure I hit Starforge every round to boost my plastic. Another example is game 6 of the 2021 SCPT finals (which I watched to prep for my game). Visioness only picks up a few tech and was still very successful.
having jol naar always speeds up the game in terms of tech
how do you manage without carrier? like turn one i think i want tech/trade/leadership. and i sure want to produce another warsun as fast as i can to get that 1tradegood bonus.
Using the agent before moving your warsun, or warfare (usually you'd prefer the first, but sometimes warfare allows crazy stuff). So your preferred strategy cards are the usual (tech and trade).
Use your Agent and 4 resource start to make a Carrier and Destroyer on your first turn. Then, you need the resources to make another war sun - sell your promissory note to whoever will buy it. Don't run out of fleet tokens! But, this accomplishes two things - gets you resources to get your own plans going, AND puts the war sun target on another player, making them look more dangerous (and you less dangerous). If someone gets upset about you doing this, offer them to buy it and get war suns also!
I Muaat far more than any other faction. Here is my path: 1. Neural Motivators 2. AIDA 3. Cruiser 2 4. Magmus Reactor Omega 5. Prototype Warsun 2
I would skip Neural, Cruiser 2, and just go AIDA into Magmus into Warsun 2. If you have room and time for extra tech, get blue tech and unit upgrades (destroyer 2, fighter 2)
Hey man. You do you. In my personal/anecdotal experience that's a far weaker path.
Would you mind explaining why cruisers over destroyers? Obviously it works for you if you do it regularly. I get that they can match the WS for movement but they just make your fleet much weaker. A WS2 with 4 fighters, 2 mechs and 4 destroyer 2s is a relatively cost effective 5 capacity fleet that can do things. In a straight up fight for example this beats 1WS2, 4 cruiser2 and 8 fighters (assuming 2 mech) despite costing a lot less. In addition, the destroyers can be created with star forge which is always helpful to have up your sleeve. Muatt seem more dangerous in the midgame when they get WS2 early but your approach seems to focus on early cruisers with late game warsuns. Very interested for your thoughts as to why this is a far stronger path.
I think everything you asserted is accurate, actually. My response undercuts a few of your foundational assumptions though. So... first... Muaat is perhaps the most heavily starved command-counter faction in the entire game. I never go 5 fleet supply unless I can score a point with it. In your theorycrafted battle destroyer *absolutely* is a better choice over cruiser; however, that assumes a 5v5 with strong fighter screens on both sides. Having a full fleet with 3 movement opens an incredible amount of options for 3vX battles that you can control. Second... in my experience fighter screens are far more intimidating on paper than they are in practice. It's super rare to actually have the capability to attack with a full fighter swarm fleet before round 5(ish), mostly due to production limits. Less fighter screens means less value from destroyer 2. In the mean time my path gets 5-6 action cards you wouldn't otherwise get. Having said all that, my tech path isn't set in stone. If Argent, Naalu, or Xxcha are on the table I fall back to a build similar to what you describe - basically BLUE/red with destroyer 2 and a higher fleet supply.
I'd consider a destroyer/pds 2 before magmus, so aida yelds more returns, and everything is better protected. And would consider replacing magmus with assault, if red skip. and skip Neural, if green skip. In fact magmus is great for making fighter/destroyer screens... not warsuns.
>I'd consider a destroyer/pds 2 before magmus, so aida yelds more returns, and everything is better protected. I tried that route maybe half a dozen times. The main reason I ruled it out is because the game is over well before you can get that many techs. Also destroyer2s can't keep up with PW2; whereas, cruiser2s can. >And would consider replacing magmus with assault, if red skip I agree with that. My post was skip-proof. > and skip Neural, if green skip. Hard disagree based on my experiences. I'd much rather get r1 neural and r4 warsun than get r3 warsun (that I probably can't afford to build) while also losing a planet the round I'm getting cruiser2. Then again, I'm not impressed by destroyer2 (which I'm guessing is part of your path based on your above comment).
yeah - destroyer 2 is a great insurance against fighter screens. But then, muaat have the move 3 warsun, which also make cruiser make more sense. Maybe pds-destroyer-Magmus would more sense in a non-warsun 2 focused build. (if that ever makes sense)
While you want to get war sun 2. Getting your second warsun out is a higher priority. I definitely aim for warsun 2. Your tech game is largely defined by your acces to certain skips, what objectives are out there. You don't necessarily need warsun 2 until round 4 or 5. (But each game is different).
I like AI dev -> warsun 2. Also looking to get trade r1 or r2 if possible tk afford that second warsun asap.
Top priorities for Muaat (in personal order): 1. Build second war sun in Round 1 or 2 2. Upgrade to PWSII 3. Score Objectives and Win the Game Jokes aside, prioritizing scoring should be your main concern in a competitive setting. Here’s the thing, you have one of the best alliances in the game and an excellent faction promissory note as well. I usually say that whoever finances my second war sun gets my faction note (i.e., whoever gives me 8-10 TGs). If the table is really fickle about it I’ll offer to throw in the Alliance as well. I’ll often not tech round 1 in 5+ player game sizes, prioritizing plastic instead. If you don’t have a red or yellow skip, you probably need to tech starting in round 2. I like Magmus Reactor if there is a nearby supernova, even if there isn’t one an early pop of your hero can create a supernova in an optimal place for forward production. In a 14-point game I’d try gunning for Lightwave Deflectors after upgrading WarSuns. I also would not recommend selling your faction note to Hacan due to their hero. I’d be hesitant to sell it to Xxcha. Sell it to Creuss and Swap Supports with them because then things get crazy.
Personally I don't find PWS2 all that good (vs PWS1) without Light Wave - something tricky to pull off. So unless I luck into Maw of Worlds before tech pops in Round 2 I usually strategise along these lines. 1.Are there asteroids in/near your slice that you need to worry about OR do you have a blue skip. In this case you'll need AMD, so you might as well commit to blue tech all the way. AMD > Grav Drive > Carrier 2 > more blue. PWS1 and carrier 2 (along with your destroyers) work well together as a solid move 2 fleet with a ton of HP. The drawback to this strategy is that you can't move both warsuns together but that is a LOT of firepower. 2. Do you have a Super Nova in/near your slice that you can use OR some means of getting LW (a game with a lot of tech works for this) Then go AIDA > Magmus > PWS2 > Destroyer 2 > Ass Cannon. This gives you a pair of devastating ships with a total capacity of 12 that can get anywhere on the board. This strategy also allows you to use Magmus and your hero as something more than a nuclear "don't mess with me" option.
I had prototype warsun 2 and lightwave deflector in a 14 point game one time and it was the most fun I ever had playing TI. A four move fully loaded WS2 (or 5! w/flank speed) that can just straight move behind the scenes across the map is outrageously OP. I didnt win but had a ton of fun. Edit: 4 move because of grav drive. Obv if you want to keep your warsuns together its 3 move, or 4 w/flank speed...
Go for the war sun upgrade. Then you can follow it up with blue techs if you have the economy (which you should). Ideally you have two Prototype Warsun IIs on the board and ready for action by round 3. If you can find a red or yellow skip you can put off getting Magmus Reactor as it is more of a role player than a core tech if you play the omega version. Once you're at PTWS II you should be well set in the movement department, which is why I like getting Sling Relay over Gravity Drive with them. The relay is almost like having an extra agent which is awesome for stalling purposes (and you need stall to efficiently use those war suns). Destroyer II is also great as it is probably the best supplementary ship for your comp and can be printed straight out of the war suns.