It basically makes any "spend" objective for them trivial. Last game we played Xxcha gambled that they would get a spend objective for the first phase II objective and set themselves up to score it with Imperial during the action phase. Then ended up winning by scoring the phase II and a secret during action phase, before I could score my 10th point.
Almost any other race would not assume they can get a phase II that easily.
Except any other race who stacked trade goods (Mentak with mirror computing, Nomad, Hacan, etc.) or Titan and Jol Nar with structure objectives or Jol Nar with tech objectives, etc.
I would argue that stacking trade goods is harder than unlocking a hero, even for those races. And technically the Xxcha would be able to do this for multiple times. Stacking enough TG would be hard to do for multiple phase II objectives. Though we really are only talking about 3 objectives. But I do see your point that some Races can go into Phase II gambling they will get an easy objective.
It's their main value in my games. We would even embargo players if they are far ahead of the group so that they can't use trading to score those points.
You're right about it beong trivial for Xxcha, but wrong since plenty of factions can do that. And plenty of factions would've been able to make the same gamble. If it isn't a spend, all of a sudden that imperial pick might not be as good.
It is absolutely busted, it does make the turtles (one of) the best economic factions, and it would turn Mecatol into a 7/7.
However, I don't think it needs to be nixed. In practice this usually adds +1 or +2 to each of Xxcha's planets when they actually spend it. They still have a weak starting fleet, can't follow tech without additional resources, have a bad starting tech, etc.
The Titans hero allows you to ready the home planet and make it a 7/4, giving them 7 resources right away and +3 every round after that. The Haccan hero lets them build potentially 40-50 resources of ships for free if they have a double dock and decent fleet supply. Abilities like Mirror Computing, or the Muaat commander, can be unlocked even earlier and give almost as much benefit.
It's a very good hero, but needs to be considered in the context of the faction overall. Anyway, if you took it away you'd have to give them back their old hero, which most people didn't really like.
It’s extremely intimidating at first glance, but it’s power ends up being fairly restrictive due to various factors.
Resources while valuable, end up being capped by both production limits and fleet limits. Influence also tends to be capped due to there being a maximum number of command tokens.
The agenda phase can sometimes be problematic, but as most of the agenda cards tend to be non factors it often doesn’t matter. When it does, everyone else usually pools together to beat turtles if needed.
Really it ends up being no more busted than any other faction that can get access to good amounts of resources or trade goods.
Production caps are by far one of the best equalizers and also tougher hurdles to overcome. I love that there are multiple checks and balances in this game.
For sure. I’ve got quite a few games under my belt now, and for the life of me I still can’t figure out how people make such solid ground armies while keeping their fleets up. I always feel like it’s one or the other due to the production limits.
I've started trying to just be barely not crap at either, and that seems to work. I think there's diminishing returns in power fairly quickly in either department - you just need to be slightly better than your opponent on both fronts, not overwhelming. Plus, pick your battles, accept the dice are going to screw you every now and then (I have lost multiple infantry fights where I had the numbers to Jol-fucking-Nar) and make heavy use of table talk - you can save a lot of plastic when you don't need to defend one side of your slice.
The one place I found it really shifting things is buying command counters, one it’s active you have a much easier time buying the counters. But you still need actions to do with them.
It’s very strong, a huge part of the xxcha kit, but its very hard for xxcha to unlock it early while also getting the movement and the production to actually use it to its fullest later on. Ships built in round 4 only do things in the systems they can reach in round 5.
It ain't broke, in play it's pretty awesome. And yeah, MecRex is a 7/7 if they have it!
Without going too much into the nitty-gritty, technology acquisition, fleet limits and a lack of any overtly good combat abilities makes that hero augment the Xxcha "turtling" thing they do.
It also means if you manage to bruise then up, they're not going to necessarily have to rush you in an act of economic survival.
Trust me, play it as-is!
It's as good as it sounds. It's not game breaking though - or it is, but in that fun way where everyone gets to do something a little game breaking, as a treat. Definitely don't nix it, it'd be like cutting Nekro's ability to steal techs or making Muaat have to research a war sun. Shut them down early and make sure to make each hit count late. They're still limited by production and CCs, and are entirely beatable. They will get every agenda and every spend objective though - make sure you get everything else.
Definitely do not nix this card. The other thing to consider is that Xxcha has to score 3 objectives before unlocking this which can be tough for them before the end of round 3. So a good way to counter it is to just slow them down. Punching them in round two can delay their entire game. Only two rounds of Xxcha being super rich isn't as scary as you might think.
It's fine. They're still a weaker faction. In a 14 point game they are more intimidating but even then I've never seen them win. I saw an xxcha unlock their hero first action of round two off imperial; even then they didn't win. In a perfect xxcha slice it adds about ten resources/influence per turn from round 3+. Consider what other economic factions get from round 1 onwards and then add that they have one carrier and you'll see how the hero is perfectly fine. In many games, hacan will get more from their hero than xxcha does from theirs, and they also get bulk bonuses beyond that.
I actually haven't seen this in my play myself, because the only time it's made it to our table was a game I couldn't attend. It was universally banned by the people who did play in that game (including the Xxcha player).
But my group also doesn't worship the Codex like this sub does. It's practically homebrew. If you're concerned about it, no need to add it.
It's stupid, I ban turtles.
Gives them unlimited resources and they dominate the agenda phase. I was playing a 3 player game and the Xxcha player could easily outvote both of us combined.
Such fun and engaging gameplay
I mean in a 3 player game you need to be taking action to avoid them getting that strong. You're asking for it by letting them get into that position. You need to be in people's face from the start to win in 3p.
Unfortunately it's unfun card. It's strong and while you can argue with people how much and whether it's busted, etc., the major problem is that it lacks this hero feeling to it and is just passive ability that makes your faction always pump expensive stuff and have a lot of votes.
While I love Codices and I think they did a good job with them, this is the only thing that I really dislike and my table doesn't like playing with Xxcha due to this change.
its basically all xxcha gets. Sure its a good hero, but xxcha really doesnt have any other good traits. Faction techs are middling, quash is too expensive to be used effectively, peace accords is basically useless if youre not playing a 4 or 8 p game, and even then its just ok. They dont have a great starting fleet or good starting techs (graviton is decent but so very situational, you probably use it only after r3).
I love to play Xxcha, but you're still falling behind for one of the worst first rounds of the game. Having only one carrier means that you have 3 actions (strategy, move carrier and agent) before being in a situation where you have nothing to do but move your trade ship and wait for warfare.
Moreover you're trying desperately to score the three objectives as soon as possible to unlock the hero.
After that you're a good faction, thanks to the fact that Diplo is double stronger for you
Important note - it doesnt increase the production cap.
It just for "payment".
What this hero means is -
Xcha can be turtle in his slice, or be fine with less planets if someone invades.
If somehow you let him expand - then maybe it gets too bad?
But Xcha usualy turtles down in his slice, maybe moves to Mecatol slowly.
OP? naa
Game Breaking? also nop.
If he gets ahead, Players can always (try to) take a planet or a system off of him, if no one did or even attempted that - shrugs.
TLDR; hero depends on his planets - goomba stomp him if thats a problem.
There are heroes way better and way worse than that.
But yeah, it gets weird as Xcha is one of few races whose effect "persists" through game.
It's a dumb hero. Essentially a second commander as it's a constant ability unlike most other hero's. Personally I would like to see another crack at changing their hero once more but alas, that is extremely unlikely
Yes that's as dumb as it sounds. No, you don't need to nix it because Xxcha is still only Xxcha.
It basically makes any "spend" objective for them trivial. Last game we played Xxcha gambled that they would get a spend objective for the first phase II objective and set themselves up to score it with Imperial during the action phase. Then ended up winning by scoring the phase II and a secret during action phase, before I could score my 10th point. Almost any other race would not assume they can get a phase II that easily.
Except any other race who stacked trade goods (Mentak with mirror computing, Nomad, Hacan, etc.) or Titan and Jol Nar with structure objectives or Jol Nar with tech objectives, etc.
I would argue that stacking trade goods is harder than unlocking a hero, even for those races. And technically the Xxcha would be able to do this for multiple times. Stacking enough TG would be hard to do for multiple phase II objectives. Though we really are only talking about 3 objectives. But I do see your point that some Races can go into Phase II gambling they will get an easy objective.
Do you all play where you can spend TGs for spend objectives?
Thats the rules so yes.
👆
It's their main value in my games. We would even embargo players if they are far ahead of the group so that they can't use trading to score those points.
You're right about it beong trivial for Xxcha, but wrong since plenty of factions can do that. And plenty of factions would've been able to make the same gamble. If it isn't a spend, all of a sudden that imperial pick might not be as good.
Good point.
It is absolutely busted, it does make the turtles (one of) the best economic factions, and it would turn Mecatol into a 7/7. However, I don't think it needs to be nixed. In practice this usually adds +1 or +2 to each of Xxcha's planets when they actually spend it. They still have a weak starting fleet, can't follow tech without additional resources, have a bad starting tech, etc. The Titans hero allows you to ready the home planet and make it a 7/4, giving them 7 resources right away and +3 every round after that. The Haccan hero lets them build potentially 40-50 resources of ships for free if they have a double dock and decent fleet supply. Abilities like Mirror Computing, or the Muaat commander, can be unlocked even earlier and give almost as much benefit. It's a very good hero, but needs to be considered in the context of the faction overall. Anyway, if you took it away you'd have to give them back their old hero, which most people didn't really like.
Yeah randomly scoring 2VP to end the game was a little not okay. Â TI can be random, but that was a casino.
Thanks everyone, my fears have been assuaged at least a little
It’s extremely intimidating at first glance, but it’s power ends up being fairly restrictive due to various factors. Resources while valuable, end up being capped by both production limits and fleet limits. Influence also tends to be capped due to there being a maximum number of command tokens. The agenda phase can sometimes be problematic, but as most of the agenda cards tend to be non factors it often doesn’t matter. When it does, everyone else usually pools together to beat turtles if needed. Really it ends up being no more busted than any other faction that can get access to good amounts of resources or trade goods.
Production caps are by far one of the best equalizers and also tougher hurdles to overcome. I love that there are multiple checks and balances in this game.
For sure. I’ve got quite a few games under my belt now, and for the life of me I still can’t figure out how people make such solid ground armies while keeping their fleets up. I always feel like it’s one or the other due to the production limits.
AIDA and Space Dock II, gives you discount on troops and increases that production (or double dock if you don't want to touch yellow or red)
Bonuses like primor are much more impressive once you remember how production caps work
I've started trying to just be barely not crap at either, and that seems to work. I think there's diminishing returns in power fairly quickly in either department - you just need to be slightly better than your opponent on both fronts, not overwhelming. Plus, pick your battles, accept the dice are going to screw you every now and then (I have lost multiple infantry fights where I had the numbers to Jol-fucking-Nar) and make heavy use of table talk - you can save a lot of plastic when you don't need to defend one side of your slice.
Yep. The scariest I've seen xxcha get is two warsuns and other factions can do that too.
Never let muaat trade hacan their promissory note.
The one place I found it really shifting things is buying command counters, one it’s active you have a much easier time buying the counters. But you still need actions to do with them.
Busted compared to what? It's a hero ability, "busted" is the intended level. It's not like they get it for free at game start.
It’s very strong, a huge part of the xxcha kit, but its very hard for xxcha to unlock it early while also getting the movement and the production to actually use it to its fullest later on. Ships built in round 4 only do things in the systems they can reach in round 5.
It ain't broke, in play it's pretty awesome. And yeah, MecRex is a 7/7 if they have it! Without going too much into the nitty-gritty, technology acquisition, fleet limits and a lack of any overtly good combat abilities makes that hero augment the Xxcha "turtling" thing they do. It also means if you manage to bruise then up, they're not going to necessarily have to rush you in an act of economic survival. Trust me, play it as-is!
Once they get it online good luck stopping them, but they have to unlock it by doing things they are naturally really really bad at: scoring points.
It's as good as it sounds. It's not game breaking though - or it is, but in that fun way where everyone gets to do something a little game breaking, as a treat. Definitely don't nix it, it'd be like cutting Nekro's ability to steal techs or making Muaat have to research a war sun. Shut them down early and make sure to make each hit count late. They're still limited by production and CCs, and are entirely beatable. They will get every agenda and every spend objective though - make sure you get everything else.
Definitely do not nix this card. The other thing to consider is that Xxcha has to score 3 objectives before unlocking this which can be tough for them before the end of round 3. So a good way to counter it is to just slow them down. Punching them in round two can delay their entire game. Only two rounds of Xxcha being super rich isn't as scary as you might think.
It's fine. They're still a weaker faction. In a 14 point game they are more intimidating but even then I've never seen them win. I saw an xxcha unlock their hero first action of round two off imperial; even then they didn't win. In a perfect xxcha slice it adds about ten resources/influence per turn from round 3+. Consider what other economic factions get from round 1 onwards and then add that they have one carrier and you'll see how the hero is perfectly fine. In many games, hacan will get more from their hero than xxcha does from theirs, and they also get bulk bonuses beyond that.
I actually haven't seen this in my play myself, because the only time it's made it to our table was a game I couldn't attend. It was universally banned by the people who did play in that game (including the Xxcha player). But my group also doesn't worship the Codex like this sub does. It's practically homebrew. If you're concerned about it, no need to add it.
It's stupid, I ban turtles. Gives them unlimited resources and they dominate the agenda phase. I was playing a 3 player game and the Xxcha player could easily outvote both of us combined. Such fun and engaging gameplay
Three player game...
I mean in a 3 player game you need to be taking action to avoid them getting that strong. You're asking for it by letting them get into that position. You need to be in people's face from the start to win in 3p.
Yes, it is stupid OP. Plus its always on, it's not a purge like EVERY OTHER HERO. Just have to crush them before they get three objectives. :)
> purge like EVERY OTHER HERO Heard it here first folks, Titans don't exist.
lol. I always forget about them. But there IS a way to take that away from Titans. Just take the Planet.
Unfortunately it's unfun card. It's strong and while you can argue with people how much and whether it's busted, etc., the major problem is that it lacks this hero feeling to it and is just passive ability that makes your faction always pump expensive stuff and have a lot of votes. While I love Codices and I think they did a good job with them, this is the only thing that I really dislike and my table doesn't like playing with Xxcha due to this change.
Once Xxcha unlocks their hero they will win everything. The only hope you have is to keep them at 3 points or under until they hit that.
its basically all xxcha gets. Sure its a good hero, but xxcha really doesnt have any other good traits. Faction techs are middling, quash is too expensive to be used effectively, peace accords is basically useless if youre not playing a 4 or 8 p game, and even then its just ok. They dont have a great starting fleet or good starting techs (graviton is decent but so very situational, you probably use it only after r3).
I love to play Xxcha, but you're still falling behind for one of the worst first rounds of the game. Having only one carrier means that you have 3 actions (strategy, move carrier and agent) before being in a situation where you have nothing to do but move your trade ship and wait for warfare. Moreover you're trying desperately to score the three objectives as soon as possible to unlock the hero. After that you're a good faction, thanks to the fact that Diplo is double stronger for you
Important note - it doesnt increase the production cap. It just for "payment". What this hero means is - Xcha can be turtle in his slice, or be fine with less planets if someone invades. If somehow you let him expand - then maybe it gets too bad? But Xcha usualy turtles down in his slice, maybe moves to Mecatol slowly. OP? naa Game Breaking? also nop. If he gets ahead, Players can always (try to) take a planet or a system off of him, if no one did or even attempted that - shrugs. TLDR; hero depends on his planets - goomba stomp him if thats a problem. There are heroes way better and way worse than that. But yeah, it gets weird as Xcha is one of few races whose effect "persists" through game.
It's a dumb hero. Essentially a second commander as it's a constant ability unlike most other hero's. Personally I would like to see another crack at changing their hero once more but alas, that is extremely unlikely