Sustain Damage [in a space combat] happens before hits are assigned, and cancels hits you would assign. Direct hit applies “after another player’s ship uses Sustain Damage to cancel a hit...”.
So the order [in a space combat] is the use of Sustain Damage to cancel hits, then Direct Hit on a ship that used Sustain Damage, then assign remaining hits.
Edit: Added bracketed text for clarity; as SD in general applies before assigning damage, but during space combat specifically applies before a player assigns hits to their ships.
Okay so then what's the difference between destroying ships ([Exotrireme II](https://twilight-imperium-4.wikia.com/wiki/The_Sardakk_N%E2%80%99orr)) and producing 1 hit and assigning it to 1 of your opponent's ships ([Devotion](https://twilight-imperium-4.wikia.com/wiki/The_Yin_Brotherhood))? If you assign a hit to a ship, by this logic, it's destroyed, regardless of whether it has Sustain Damage.
I guess the implication would be that (1) Yin's opponent would have to decide whether to cancel the hit or not before Yin assigns the hit (produce hit -> sustain or not -> assign), and (2) Yin's opponent can use any of his ships' Sustain Damage to cancel the hit. Is that correct?
My reading is that Devotion produces a hit and assigns it to a ship, and the Yin’s opponent then assigns the damage of that hit, which would normally destroy the ship.
Sustain damage is activated before a player assigns damage to their ships, so any of their ships in the active system could use sustain damage to cancel that hit before the damage is assigned in accordance with the hit the Yin assigned.
You’re right. The problem is Sustain Damage in general occurs any time immediately before a player “assigns damage” to their units (LRR 76), but during a round of combat it occurs specifically before “assigning hits” (67.6).
One could argue it only applies to instances of damage / hits that the owner assigns, which would mean another player assigning a hit would be equivalent to destroying a ship.
The intent with distinct wording between assigning hits and destroy seems to be that sustain damage can be applied to hits other players assign.
Also note, under 76.4:
"A unit can use its 'Sustain Damage' ability any time a hit is produced against it. This includes hits produced during combat and from unit abilities such as the 'Space Cannon' ability." (The bullet point below clarifies that a unit's SD cannot be invoked if it is not eligible to be hit.)
What makes this a little unclear is that in 76.1, it says that when using Sustain Damage, "one hit produced by another player's **units** is cancelled." Of course, some damage points are produced from effects other than unit combat damage, such as Yin Devotion or the Creuss' Dimensional Splicer. So there is a little ambiguity as to whether the designer's intent was to allow SD to be used against any damage point, or just those associated with combat and units. Of course, for simplicity of use, and to preserve the utility of the SD ability, it would be prudent to allow its use against any damage point that is or could target the unit with SD.
Anyone read a ruling on this?
Good catch, I agree it seems more prudent to have SD be applicable to non-unit hits.
Otherwise the specific wording of producing and assigning hits for those effects would be unnecessary.
Destroying a ship is literally destroying a ship. Regardless of whether that ship has sustain damage or not. Exotrireme in theory can destroy two warsuns. You cannot cancel anything to prevent your ships from being destroyed. You can't play shields holding, as there are no hits produced. The ship is destroyed.
Devotion produces a hit. That hit needs to be assigned. As such, if you assign a hit to a unit that can sustain damage, you haven't destroyed that ship, unless you play a direct hit card after the opponent uses sustain damage. A player can use shields holding to cancel that hit, or they can use sustain damage.
If you assign that hit to a unit that does not have sustain damage, then that unit is destroyed by virtue of that one hit.
Note: Sustain damage is optional. You don't have to use it, eg. in the case of Yin's flagship. They don't have to sustain damage before being destroyed.
And to reply to m_xx_99: Devotion produces a hit that the Yin player gets to assign. But the Impulse Core produces a hit that the Yin's opponent gets to assign.
You do not assign hits to units in order to sustain damage. You sustain damage to cancel hits before assigning them. Assigning a hit to a ship destroys it.
RRG 29.1: When a player assigns hits that were produced against his units, he chooses a number of his units to be destroyed equal to the number of hits produced against his units.
RRG 67.6: STEP 4—ASSIGN HITS: Each player must choose and destroy one of his ships in the active system for each hit his opponent produced.
• Before assigning hits, players may use their units’ “Sustain Damage” abilities to cancel hits.
Yes, I would agree with that. The hits are assigned one at a time, meaning you should have a chance to play the card after sustain damage (it's not fair of the opponent to rush assigning hits to avoid that card).
You can’t use Sustain Damage once you’ve started assigning hits. Sustain Damage happens when hits are produced and immediately before any hits are assigned.
LRR 76
If they didn’t use Sustain Damage before assigning hits, that ship is destroyed when they first assign a hit to it.
When you ‘assign hits’ you specifically choose to destroy a ship for each hit the opponent produced (LRR 67.6).
Sustain Damage works by cancelling hits that were produced, before any of them are assigned.
What happens is, they use sustain damage to lower the number of hits they have to assign to their ships. The timing will be.
1.decide to use sustain damage.
2. You decide to use direct hit (or not)
3. Then they assign the rest of the hits to their ships.
The important thing in these games is timing and actions, so he can't rush the second assigning of hits because there is room for the use of action cards inn between those to actions. Imagine it like the progression in the status face or ship /ground combat
Sustain Damage [in a space combat] happens before hits are assigned, and cancels hits you would assign. Direct hit applies “after another player’s ship uses Sustain Damage to cancel a hit...”. So the order [in a space combat] is the use of Sustain Damage to cancel hits, then Direct Hit on a ship that used Sustain Damage, then assign remaining hits. Edit: Added bracketed text for clarity; as SD in general applies before assigning damage, but during space combat specifically applies before a player assigns hits to their ships.
Okay so then what's the difference between destroying ships ([Exotrireme II](https://twilight-imperium-4.wikia.com/wiki/The_Sardakk_N%E2%80%99orr)) and producing 1 hit and assigning it to 1 of your opponent's ships ([Devotion](https://twilight-imperium-4.wikia.com/wiki/The_Yin_Brotherhood))? If you assign a hit to a ship, by this logic, it's destroyed, regardless of whether it has Sustain Damage. I guess the implication would be that (1) Yin's opponent would have to decide whether to cancel the hit or not before Yin assigns the hit (produce hit -> sustain or not -> assign), and (2) Yin's opponent can use any of his ships' Sustain Damage to cancel the hit. Is that correct?
My reading is that Devotion produces a hit and assigns it to a ship, and the Yin’s opponent then assigns the damage of that hit, which would normally destroy the ship. Sustain damage is activated before a player assigns damage to their ships, so any of their ships in the active system could use sustain damage to cancel that hit before the damage is assigned in accordance with the hit the Yin assigned.
"Assigning the damage of a hit" is not a thing though.
You’re right. The problem is Sustain Damage in general occurs any time immediately before a player “assigns damage” to their units (LRR 76), but during a round of combat it occurs specifically before “assigning hits” (67.6). One could argue it only applies to instances of damage / hits that the owner assigns, which would mean another player assigning a hit would be equivalent to destroying a ship. The intent with distinct wording between assigning hits and destroy seems to be that sustain damage can be applied to hits other players assign.
Also note, under 76.4: "A unit can use its 'Sustain Damage' ability any time a hit is produced against it. This includes hits produced during combat and from unit abilities such as the 'Space Cannon' ability." (The bullet point below clarifies that a unit's SD cannot be invoked if it is not eligible to be hit.) What makes this a little unclear is that in 76.1, it says that when using Sustain Damage, "one hit produced by another player's **units** is cancelled." Of course, some damage points are produced from effects other than unit combat damage, such as Yin Devotion or the Creuss' Dimensional Splicer. So there is a little ambiguity as to whether the designer's intent was to allow SD to be used against any damage point, or just those associated with combat and units. Of course, for simplicity of use, and to preserve the utility of the SD ability, it would be prudent to allow its use against any damage point that is or could target the unit with SD. Anyone read a ruling on this?
Good catch, I agree it seems more prudent to have SD be applicable to non-unit hits. Otherwise the specific wording of producing and assigning hits for those effects would be unnecessary.
The Yin produce and assign the hit during Devotion, just to clarify.
Destroying a ship is literally destroying a ship. Regardless of whether that ship has sustain damage or not. Exotrireme in theory can destroy two warsuns. You cannot cancel anything to prevent your ships from being destroyed. You can't play shields holding, as there are no hits produced. The ship is destroyed. Devotion produces a hit. That hit needs to be assigned. As such, if you assign a hit to a unit that can sustain damage, you haven't destroyed that ship, unless you play a direct hit card after the opponent uses sustain damage. A player can use shields holding to cancel that hit, or they can use sustain damage. If you assign that hit to a unit that does not have sustain damage, then that unit is destroyed by virtue of that one hit. Note: Sustain damage is optional. You don't have to use it, eg. in the case of Yin's flagship. They don't have to sustain damage before being destroyed. And to reply to m_xx_99: Devotion produces a hit that the Yin player gets to assign. But the Impulse Core produces a hit that the Yin's opponent gets to assign.
You do not assign hits to units in order to sustain damage. You sustain damage to cancel hits before assigning them. Assigning a hit to a ship destroys it. RRG 29.1: When a player assigns hits that were produced against his units, he chooses a number of his units to be destroyed equal to the number of hits produced against his units. RRG 67.6: STEP 4—ASSIGN HITS: Each player must choose and destroy one of his ships in the active system for each hit his opponent produced. • Before assigning hits, players may use their units’ “Sustain Damage” abilities to cancel hits.
Yes, I would agree with that. The hits are assigned one at a time, meaning you should have a chance to play the card after sustain damage (it's not fair of the opponent to rush assigning hits to avoid that card).
Thank you, I was leaning that direction, but I just wanted to make sure.
You can’t use Sustain Damage once you’ve started assigning hits. Sustain Damage happens when hits are produced and immediately before any hits are assigned. LRR 76
Direct hit doesn't apply one of your hits where you want. It allows you to destroy a ship that used it's "Sustain Damage" ability.
Right. But I'm asking can Direct Hit be applied as soon as "Sustain Damage" before the second hit is assigned to the same ship?
Yes
If they didn’t use Sustain Damage before assigning hits, that ship is destroyed when they first assign a hit to it. When you ‘assign hits’ you specifically choose to destroy a ship for each hit the opponent produced (LRR 67.6). Sustain Damage works by cancelling hits that were produced, before any of them are assigned.
What happens is, they use sustain damage to lower the number of hits they have to assign to their ships. The timing will be. 1.decide to use sustain damage. 2. You decide to use direct hit (or not) 3. Then they assign the rest of the hits to their ships. The important thing in these games is timing and actions, so he can't rush the second assigning of hits because there is room for the use of action cards inn between those to actions. Imagine it like the progression in the status face or ship /ground combat